Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Paradox on January 26, 2009, 03:11:11 am
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Many other games make use of Pie menus, and they are quite easy to use. Typically these games are on a console, due to the nature of Analog sticks, but not always; they can be very effective with a scroll wheel. I was reading the Menu & Interface ideas for 1.2 (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=10254.0), and drew up a concept of my own in photoshop.
I felt that this should be in its own topic as not to derail his/her topic.
Anyway, enough chat. Heres my concept of how a pie graph could look:
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept.png)
And now for an explanation.
This is a radial pie menu. It would be navigated using the scroll wheel, or whatever the user has bound to prev and next, typically [ and ]. Since there are 8 slices, and they are arranged in a circle, this menu would be an infinite loop type, meaning you can scroll through the list at no end. This also has the advantage that any item on the list is at most 4 away from any other item.
This is what the armory menu would look like.
If this is only stage 1, stage 2 and 3 would be either greyed out.
If the user cannot afford an item, it is greyed out.
The current users balance is in the center, just above the icon.
If an item is grey, it is would be skipped in the scroll index. This is to provide the ability to keep a list organized for visual memory, so one does not have to look at the list every time they want a new item.
The currently active weapon/upgrades are marked with checkmark(s). To sell an existing item, the user selects it and then clicks the mouse button, or whatever is bound to select. The item is now sold, and the checkmark vanishes. The credit balance updates to reflect this change.
To purchase a new item, the user rotates to which item they want to buy, and clicks the select key/mouse button. If there are no conflicts, a checkmark is placed on that item in the menu, it becomes active, and the balance reduces. If that item cannot be purchased, due to conflict, the items it conflicts with flash light white 2 times, to inform the user.
The center area, where the crosshair is, indicates which section is active. Each section has its own icon. The upgrades page has the Plus icon in the center, for example.
Not all items are listed here, notibly absent is the Construction kit. This is because this menu is the descendant of a much broader menu, with only 2 selectable options, at opposite sides of the circle; construction and weapons. Menus with fewer items always will have the same size fields, just only 2 will be scrolled to. Again, this is to preserve visual memory.
If there are more than 8 items to be listed, an more item will appear. The more icon is an elipsis (...)
If an item leads to a sub-menu, it is marked with an arrow (see level 2, 3, and upgrades).
Additionally, if a menu active is a sub menu, as this one is, there is a little X icon in the upper left corner. The user navigates back in the menu history by pressing the backspace key or something similar.
The effects used are relatively simple, and can be controlled via programming. They are limited to outer glows and masks.
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These menus give the advantage of rapid selection of most anything. Teams, classes, buildings, etc, all can be selected using this interface. It allows users to choose items very rapidly with the mouse wheel, almost to the level of convenience and speed of binds.
Hell, this could even be used in a voice command menu, that has been mentioned many times before.
Be ruthlesss, tear into it, but be constructive.
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Seems like a decent idea. Again, there should be a client side option to change menus. I think that when you select an item (such as a gun) that you can afford, you sell your current gun (or whatever).
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I like it but I would suggest rotating it so there are 4 on top and 4 on bottom instead of 3 on the top and 3 on the bottom with 2 on the side. This would prevent players from having to tilt their head to read the two options on the side.
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Its a circle. You cant rotate it... And its not too difficult to read sideways text. Read it 2-3 times, and you have it memorized, it never changes position.
As for the buy Roanoke mentioned, i thought of that, but also thought about how it could lead to other conflicts.
Perhaps if it was an option.
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Sounds nice, right now I don't really see any obvious problems about the circle appearance and control design. Someone should code it.
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TF is thinking about doing so.
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Seems like an interesting idea. My only little idea is that default to select should be the middle mouse button (or item select, forget what it's called) instead of +attack. Just seems a tad easier to scroll and click in with scroll wheel than to click. Yea, it's kinda nit picking, but I thought this might just be a little easier, and wanted to let you know know. Also it's the same as how you switch between and select items while away from the armory, (scroll and scroll wheel click in) so it seems more natural to follow this pattern.
Good idea overall, we'll see what happens.
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Thats what i said. Middle mouse button.
Although this would have to be configurable, as i know some might like attack.
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To purchase a new item, the user rotates to which item they want to buy, and clicks the select key/mouse button.
Sorry, you said this, and clicks misled me into thinking you were talking about clicking.
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Understandable, i should have been more clear in my phrasing
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Paradox amazing idea, i was actually working on a replacment for the current arm menu and would love the source files for this. I would be willing to get this working, thanks for the time and consideration.
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Its a circle. You cant rotate it... And its not too difficult to read sideways text. Read it 2-3 times, and you have it memorized, it never changes position.
As for the buy Roanoke mentioned, i thought of that, but also thought about how it could lead to other conflicts.
Perhaps if it was an option.
Ah, I had thought you meant the highlight would rotate around the circle, not the circle rotate as the highlight stays still.
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Please note that, IIRC the theory behind pie menus, they're best when not rotated, from an ergonomical point of view. In other words, pie menus can be great, but only if coupled with muscle memory, which means that stuff needs to always be found in the same position. So instead of rotating and clicking to change the menu you go hover over a slice and it opens up another pie, centered over the parent-slice.
Oh, and put the X (close) button in the middle.
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Im sorry if this wasnt clear. The Menu always stays in the same place. The highlight moves around the circle.
As for the X button, that wont go in the center, as that is the location of the icon. I was thinking, and thought that perhaps a breadcrumb below the menu would be a better indication of the position.
This example would be
Armory>Items
And the opening of new menus replaces the current menu. At most only one menu will ever be on screen. Think of them as slides in a presentation or something similar.
Im working on making it into flash to illustrate it a bit better.
Volt, i can give you the source, but you cannot achieve this with the current hud technology. It will require massive changes to the Menu system. Luckily, most of the preliminaries for pie menu systems already exist, so one could "human copy" them, that is, reinterpret them into tremulous.
I thought clicking would be a necessity, as one can get used to scrolling and clicking far faster than one could get used to scrolling and hovering, as hovering puts a bottleneck in, as one has to wait for the hover to be recognised to continue on. While easier at first, it would not be as fast, and would prove irritating if you opened a menu you did not intend to.
One thing i thought up yesterday was having the right mouse button act as the close for a breadcrumb layer. So the entries would be opened with the scroll wheel button, and closed with the right.
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I've been suggesting a radial menu for the armory for a couple years now. I fully support this endeavor.
Khalsa
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I like it, nice concept
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its a nice idea, but the menus arent the problem imo, gameplay is and 1.2's gameplay is even worse, good day sirs
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Oh then, lets not fix them, and leave them as they are in the current incarnation, as they work SO well right now.
</sarcasm>
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What about a radial upgrades/evolve menu? From what I can gather, this menu is for the armoury (I speed read the thread) only, and it would be a shame to make the aliens miss out. What about a system more like Cysis, where you hold mouse3 and select things from a radial wheel from there. As far as upgrads go, it could be used for selecting grenades, medkit, weapon, blaster and jetpack. For Aliens, it would just be a radial evolve menu, alowing aliens to evolve on the move (which you can do in certain HUDs).
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Let me start by mentioning that I wouldn't be likely to use such a menu myself as binds do the job so effeciently already. In my opinion, anything less than the 1-key press bind might be friendly to newbies but will always be slower.
So if I were to hypothetically use a menu like this, I think I'd prefer it to have a few less submenus (perhaps none). If it requires too many clicks to achieve the desired result, you'll forfiet the advantage of having such a menu.
Also, I'd say there are better selection systems than the 'scroll select' system. This is not only because a fast scroll is less likely to end up where you want it but also when the highlighted section can be left in n positions it makes it harder to work into a twitch reflex. An example of a better system would be one in which you move your mouse in the direction of the pie slice you wish to select (while holding/toggling the menu key)- a menu system which I've known a few FPSs to have (e.g. Battlefield 2, EmpiresMod).
Don't get me wrong, I would be glad to see the current menu changed and so I'm in favour of what you're doing. If this menu is to be an improvement on the original, it might help to note what made the old menu bad. The main problem I found was that in buying new weapons, it required you to click open the selection menu, double left click to sell, double left click to buy then click to close the menu. That's 6 clicks. This is very slow compared to the one click of a bind and I strongly suggest making your menu require as few clicks as possible. Double click is to help reduce mistakes but when the cost of a mistake would just mean another single click to fix it, you might as well make it one click.
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++++Nux.
I agree completely. Scroll does not work. Drag is much faster and more streamlined. A lot like Cortex Command. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tigsource/1274220562/
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I rather have scroll and drag as optional features. If you wand scroll, go ahead, if you want drag, enable it. Besides, having this feature more customizable options for every player's needs instead of one, single option is a plus. It will take more coding though (And alot more for the lazy coder), thats the setback.
Yea, more people prefer scroll but that doesn't mean every player in Tremulous agrees with that. Same with mouselook, alot of players prefer it but I do know a few who is more "At Doom's Gate" without mouse look.
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Hell, the menu could work for either drag or scroll. Could be options.
As for the evolve/build menu, im working on those right now.
I wanna upload everything in bulk.
I've made a few changes to the UI which i think are for the better, make it more readable.
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Also, if anyone wants to work on making a hud with me to go along with this visual style, contact me here. I would make some assets you could use. The menu is still impossible, but we could customize other aspects.
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Looks awesome, only binds will ruin it. :D
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Well, we don't need an arm menu, since binds will ruin it.
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Pick me :D, I would love to work with you on this.
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Well, we don't need an arm menu, since binds will ruin it.
Then lets take it out and make 1.2 have an even steeper learning curve than this version, to scare away ALL new players...
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Update:
I have spent the past few days re-evaluating some of my earlier work, and expanding on it. I present to you the COMPLETE set of human menus.
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept/WheelConcept_spawn_human.png)
Human Spawn selection
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept/WheelConcept_arm_base.png)
Base armory menu.
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept/WheelConcept_arm_items.png)
Stage 1 Armory Menu
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept/WheelConcept_arm_items_s2.png)
Stage 2 Armory Menu
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept/WheelConcept_arm_items_s3.png)
Stage 3 Armory Menu
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept/WheelConcept_arm_upgrades.png)
Armory Upgrades menu.
Notice the X icon on a few things. That indicates that it cannot be equipped, but if an item is sold, it can be (eg battpack and jetpack)
(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/tremulous/WheelConcept/WheelConcept_build_human.png)
Human Build menu
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Let me clarify something. This is not to make menus replace binds. This is not to make weapons unbindable. This is to allow for the ease of entry for a new player to the game. It is designed to be faster than the current menu system, but not as fast as binds. Purchasing from the armory is something that should be done in safety unless done via binds, and this is no acception. The logical grouping of items, while it may appear inconvenient, teaches new players the significance of Stage 2 and 3, and allows them to think of them in a natural order.
Step back a moment to when you were new at trem. You likely had very little idea about most of the things in there. You probably asked "How do i use the armory" or something similar. Eventually you got help or figured it out, but you felt puzzled at first. This is designed to make that feeling go away, to make it so even the dumbest jock could pick up the game and go ok i want a weapon...armory...items...ooh stage 2...i want a FLAMETHROWER...i saw upgrades back there, i wonder whats there...back...grenades... etc
So dispense with the "This isnt as good as binds" shit. Menus will never be as good as binds. Problem is, almost all new players dont know about binds. Therefore, the menu is their only option. Do you want a bunch of new players asking "OMG HOW 2 BUY WEPON!?!" and then having to walk through the binding process? Don't say you could just say "RTFM". That doesn't work.
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Well, we don't need an arm menu, since binds will ruin it.
Erm, that was sarcasm. I was reacting to all the 'binds are better' posts.
I would appreciate a link to S3 from the S2 menu. Also, how do you enter the armor menu? I propose the main arm screen having the option to go into weapons, armor, or buy a ckit. Again, I think that conflicting items should be autosold if you could then afford that new item, this would be far quicker. As for asking how to use the armory, I actually RTFM :p
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Yeah, pick Volt. I like his hud the best. It's the most ergonomic one I've seen:
* colors are nice and easy to see, yet don't detract from the game
* placement of all the stuff is well thought out
* the most important stuff is placed bottom-center, again, easy to see yet doesn't affect the gameplay
* the radar is very good
* the DTMF binds are a god-send (but the orders and teamsays could use some rethinking)
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If the max itemdefs per menu file could somehow be raised, i could get a hacky version of this working with the current tremulous menu system.
Could i get transparent backgrounds for the wheels, and if possible get the photoshop source?
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One thing you surely won't be able to do with the current menu system is non-horizontal text.
Volt: Just edit ui_shared.c or .h, can't remember which, it's a #define at the top.
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hmmm how much of that small texts and icons will one see at 800x600?
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Well what i was thinking was to set boxes around images like so pic (http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9934/wheelconceptbuildhumanbw2.png) so when people click or scroll to item it works, and with text that not horz use images as backdrops.
I could probally get everything to work, minus the check by every weapon you have in your inventory. I would probally need some new ownerdraw cvar set for that.
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A few things:
- I personally don't like the way the corner sector symbols are slanted but the others aren't (aesthetically). They look like they would fit so I see no reason against keeping them upright.
- The slanty words I'm also not fond of. I'm happy with the names of weapons being out of the way since it's easy to get used to their respective symbols and never look at them again but I think the cost should be easier to read (not vertical).
- You can buy medkits at the armoury?
- The buildable symbols seem to lack the bold simplicity of the other symbols. Why not have a silhouette of the actual structure as the symbol? They differ in shape enough for it to be clear which is which.
- It's not quite clear how you return to parent menus (if possible at all). Perhaps a click in the middle of the menu?
- Separate from the scroll and drag selects there is always the cursor select already in place. Just having the buttons big and one-click is enough to improve the menu.
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All good ideas.
In version 3, the armory base menu will have links to weapons, upgrades, etc. These menus will also interlink to others.
As for this being a full hud, let me come up with a few more hud elements, such as health, etc. Then i will send them to you.
As for reducing the number of items, that would be fairly difficult. If it uses a mouse+drag, one could click the breadcrumb to jump back. I like the idea of clicking the center.
The structure symbols were something i considered before, but were a bit hard to deal with. I have some structure images, but they really dont look good when blanked out. If someone could give me some good structure images, eg a turret from the side, etc, as well as their alien counterparts, i will incorperate them into the V3 design.
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The structure symbols were something i considered before, but were a bit hard to deal with. I have some structure images, but they really dont look good when blanked out. If someone could give me some good structure images, eg a turret from the side, etc, as well as their alien counterparts, i will incorperate them into the V3 design.
Ask whoever made the Tremulous t-shirt at Ministry of Frag. Those are the best simplified structure representations I have ever seen!
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I have begun work on an .svg format image of the alien pie.
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It's not quite clear how you return to parent menus (if possible at all). Perhaps a click in the middle of the menu?
See? Natural reaction for pie menus. Use click on the middle to return to the upper level.
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I though the natural reaction to pie menus was hunger... :grenade:
Also, click outside to close it?
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The coding i began, i just made is so when your mouse leaves pie menu
s boundries it closes. That way when alien pops into your base for suicide run you just move out of pie menu and pwn it.
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What did you settle on for opening them? Do you press the menu bind and they stay open, or they only stay open while you keep it pressed? I'm guessing the former?
Yes, clicking outside is more natural. Being caught by the enemy with my menu open is one of the more unpleasant experiences. Will the click outside the menu be taken to mean only close the menu, or will it also bubble down to normal behaviour (chomp/fire)? I propose the former, since usually you use the menu near armory/OM, so you wouldn't wanna fire there.
Volt, simply moving off the menu may not be desirable. An explicit click might be better, to avoid moving outside by mistake. But if you want to make it close when you leave it, please consider adding a delay in which you can return without it closing. It doesn't have to be big, something like a quarter of a second should do.
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I'll have some working code by the end of the weekend.
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boundries it closes. That way when alien pops into your base for suicide run you just move out of pie menu and pwn it.
I'd say a variable is preferable, so people can play how they want.
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I will be releasing the alien one soon, that is, if i can get some icons for the aliens.
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Aww I just finished my alien one. Unfortunately, its on my other computer (the one my brother is playing games on)
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For aliens, pressing Q (or whatever) should open a little menu box in the bottom left that you scroll up and down the list to select the class you want, that click in with the scroll wheel button. No need for anything complicated with so relatively few choices. You could also move with the box open, just have it completely controlled by scrolling up and down to highlight class, and middle click in.
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http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=W-orMKpVycI
Why not something like that? It's been proven a success in Crysis. It could work perfectly in Tremulous for the alien evolve menu.
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not to be a detail picker, but I kinda noticed that theres no MD.
Otherwise, this seems like a nice project that can go far. Good Luck! ;D
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I was thinking we don't need a circle, all we would need is this.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3486/3240953688_f3f8f4edd1_o.jpg)
You just use your scroll wheel to select which class you wish, and than click in with scroll wheel, and tada! You evolve. You could also keep playing with this menu up, similar to a vsays menu in COD.
Of course, this was just a 30 second mock up, so it's not perfect, the text would have to be fixed, and you might want a border around the edge. But if you just neaten this up a bit, I think it will look very nice.
I think this is a much nicer, similar version of what we currently have, and would be a nice improvement.
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Alien wheel or icons? All I need is the icons…
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(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/7thwrath/g3684.png)
Clockwise from left:
Granger, Dretch, Basi, Adv Basi, Mara, Adv Mara, Goon, Adv Goon, Rant
The pluses are for the advanced forms.
EDIT:
Center circle displays evos.
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Bump! (is bumping illegal?)
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yes! >:( (nah, i'm just kidding). that looks nice but i'm not exactly sure which cricle the + near the bottom is asociated to.
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Yeah, I may have to change that. When you think about it in terms of stages, it could either be more or less ambigous. (!?)
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Doesn't seem complete. Where is the bottom left?
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What would we put there?
Clockwise from left: Adv granger, dretch, basi, +basi, mara, +mara, goon, +goon, rant.
All of the evo forms are there.
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Buildings...
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Evolve to buildings ???
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The buildings pie isnt done yet.
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Evolve to buildings ???
Doesn't sound too bad, actually. :O
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Evolve to buildings ???
Doesn't sound too bad, actually. :O
Alien evolve to armoury in human base! I can see it now... :o
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Evolve to buildings ???
Doesn't sound too bad, actually. :O
Dibs for Unvanquished :D
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paradox might i be able to snag the sources for the pie menus, kinda hard using the current images you posted for backdrops.
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Yea, sorry, ill send you the PSD tomorrow morning via gmail.