Tremulous Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: MartinX3 on June 25, 2009, 09:29:45 am

Title: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 25, 2009, 09:29:45 am
Would you like the Idea if the developers build in Havok http://software.intel.com/sites/havok/ (http://software.intel.com/sites/havok/) or PhysX http://developer.nvidia.com/object/physx_downloads.html (http://developer.nvidia.com/object/physx_downloads.html) or another nice Physic Engine (Please write the name in your post if you know one)
The features are destructable Objects/Environment, more Challenge in maps, Map Developer can build in MORE Ideas because more shit is possible like more realistic Traps and MORE Traps.
Or the developers could build in a Gravity Gun like the one in Half Life 2 and shoot garbage against aliens or other things that lie on the map.
Please remember. In the Future will ATI have a same thing like CUDA in the Nvidea card. ATI will it build in in the new HD 5xxx series with DX 11 and Pxel Shader 5.0. (Only for PhysX !!!!!!)
For Havok there is since 2006 Havok FX. You don't need Cuda or shit like this. You don't need to buy a new Graficcard. Your Graphiccard only need Pixel Shader 3.0. (build in since Nvidea Geforce 6 and 7 series and since the ATI X1000 series) With Pixel Shader 3.0 and Havok FX will make your graphics card do the physics calculations and not your processor.

Remember for Physx you need a PhysX card or a Nvidea Card with cuda or your CPU will make the calculations (But Dual Core 2.4 GHz is enough i think) but PhysX has more features and you need to install the PhysX driver.
For Havok you don't need to install a driver oder use a Physics Card or a Graphiccard from Nvidea you only need a Graphiccard with Pixel Shader 3.0 or your CPU will do the calculations (Dualcore 2.0 GHz is enough i think)


And the best thing is that the SDK's from Havok and PysX are FREE!

/Edit:
Here a Physic Test with PhysX. You will see it ahs more features than Havok but Havok is better for slower PC's.

PhysX Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XL2dZTozJM&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XL2dZTozJM&feature=channel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JtAdTon0JA&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JtAdTon0JA&feature=channel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF7Iq9pzKRk&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF7Iq9pzKRk&feature=channel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYxN5h1KRLQ&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYxN5h1KRLQ&NR=1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AnWw3F4sOA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AnWw3F4sOA&feature=related)

Havok Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bKphYfUk-M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bKphYfUk-M)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ0HNHO5Uik&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ0HNHO5Uik&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV7gpRhy4Eo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV7gpRhy4Eo&feature=related)

Octave Engnie Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyDcAyIPaXA&feature=fvw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyDcAyIPaXA&feature=fvw)

Prometech Engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRQidO_YX2w&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRQidO_YX2w&feature=channel)

And the Open Tool Kit which includes OpenCL is for free too.
http://www.opentk.com/ (http://www.opentk.com/)
With openCL EVERY Graphiccard calculate Physics!!!
The OpenTK includes OpenAL, OpenGL and OpenCL.
It is for free and open source of course. ^^

Bullet Engine
This Physic Engine is for free and open source.
http://www.bulletphysics.com (http://www.bulletphysics.com)

I am currently working on adding bullet (http://code.google.com/p/bullet/) to Tremfusion. Of course, it won't be compatible with Tremulous 1.1. I chose to use bullet because, as Asvarox said, we can't use Havok or PhysX because they are closed source, and thus incompatible with the GPL. Also, bullet is very close in features and performance behind Havok, which makes it the best open source physics engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cims9Yhrtz4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cims9Yhrtz4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gpcCWKyrGA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gpcCWKyrGA&feature=related)
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: PureNoob on June 25, 2009, 10:03:36 am
Quote
blah blah... phycis engine... blah blah gravity gun... blah blah... But Dual Core 2.4 GHz is enough i think... blah blah...
:(
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 25, 2009, 10:12:52 am
for PhysX without Cuda Graphiccard with CUDA Dualcore with 2.4 GHz would be enough.
With the Havok Engine you only need less than 2 GHz dualcore when you have NO graphiccard with Pixelshader 3.0.
But a Grahpiccard with Pxel Shader 3.0 today cost (as example the ATI X 1500) only 14-16 $.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Asvarox on June 25, 2009, 10:31:12 am
I believe Dual Core 2.4 doesn't cost 14-16$. Also, Amanieu said that GPL prevents us from using closed source libraries.
http://amanieu.homelinux.com/ideatorrent/idea/2/
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: CreatureofHell on June 25, 2009, 10:51:42 am
Tremulous is Tremulous, there isn't much point in changing that.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 25, 2009, 01:17:49 pm
I believe Dual Core 2.4 doesn't cost 14-16$. Also, Amanieu said that GPL prevents us from using closed source libraries.
http://amanieu.homelinux.com/ideatorrent/idea/2/

I meaned not the CPU i meaned a Graphic Card with Pixel Shader 3.0 and named as example the ATI X 1500
It has Pixel Shader 3.0 and is also supportet by Havok FX as Physic Calculator.
THIS card cost 14-20€

And OpenCL IS open source.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: gimhael on June 25, 2009, 01:32:35 pm
OpenCL is an API, just like OpenGL. There may be open source or closed source implementations in the future.

The GPL doesn't prohibit linking to closed source libraries that are more or less part of your OS, or we couldn't calll the NVidia OpenGL implementation from Tremulous. So using OpenCL should be possible.

However OpenCL is not a Physics engine, it is an interface to the raw compute power contained in current GPUs. When you want a Physics simulation, then you have to implement all the math yourself.

I think before you ask people about which engine should be used, you should ask what this engine should do within the game. Only physically correct animation of some map elements ? Or physically correct movement and collisions ?
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Amanieu on June 25, 2009, 04:13:31 pm
I am currently working on adding bullet (http://code.google.com/p/bullet/) to Tremfusion. Of course, it won't be compatible with Tremulous 1.1. I chose to use bullet because, as Asvarox said, we can't use Havok or PhysX because they are closed source, and thus incompatible with the GPL. Also, bullet is very close in features and performance behind Havok, which makes it the best open source physics engine.

Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 25, 2009, 09:44:08 pm
I read somethnig on this side
Quote
Optimized back-ends with multi-threaded support for Playstation 3 Cell SPU, CUDA, OpenCL and other platforms
Then we can use OpenCL to make it possible that our Graphiccards calculate the Physics Engine "Bullet"?

And Amanieu.
Your Idea is great.
A Physics Engine like Bullet, Havok or Physics would make better game experience.
I which your many luck that your trying to add bullet to tremulous will success
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: your face on June 26, 2009, 02:36:39 am
plis prt tremaeulis to cryseis ???
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 26, 2009, 08:39:15 am
Sorry but to have the same graphic effects like in Crysis we need years or a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY big community.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Baconizer on June 26, 2009, 10:56:55 am
Sorry but to have the same graphic effects like in Crysis we need years or a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY big community.
lol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm)

As well as .... (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=6449.0)

Have a good day sir, I truly mean it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke).
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 26, 2009, 12:27:15 pm
drunken?
it is better when you quote his post
plis prt tremaeulis to cryseis ???
he want it not me ^^
A graphic like Quake 4 is enough for me ^^
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: borsuk on June 26, 2009, 03:52:24 pm
It would be even better if the topic starter submitted a patch with a better physics engine !
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Baconizer on June 26, 2009, 08:53:52 pm
drunken?
it is better when you quote his post
plis prt tremaeulis to cryseis ???
he want it not me ^^
A graphic like Quake 4 is enough for me ^^
OH GAH IT HURTS
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 26, 2009, 10:52:12 pm
It would be even better if the topic starter submitted a patch with a better physics engine !
I ask the people if it would be a good idea to add to the game a better physic engine and which engine.
And why i should start to integrate a Physic engine into the game.
Amanieu said he will do it in tremfusion.

A new physic engine would be great for the planed single player campaign.
There will be more possiblities to amke it better like destructable walls.
It will give more "brain" quests.

Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Thorn on June 27, 2009, 12:15:13 am
Destructible walls are more than possible with a few well placed animated models and sounds. I don't see how a physics engine is going to help a few brushes dissapear better
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: kevlarman on June 27, 2009, 12:52:03 am
there is no planned single player campaign.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: A Spork on June 27, 2009, 01:00:22 am
^^For Tremfusion I believe there is plans for that actually
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: David on June 27, 2009, 02:21:46 pm
Last I checked this was the Tremulous forums where we discuss Tremulous.
If you really must talk about other games here, then maybe you should say instead of leaving us to guess?
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 27, 2009, 02:41:18 pm
Last I checked this was the Tremulous forums where we discuss Tremulous.
If you really must talk about other games here, then maybe you should say instead of leaving us to guess?

Tremfusion is NOT another game. ^^
TRemfusion is a CLIENT for Tremulous like the Mercenariesguild Client.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Plague Bringer on June 27, 2009, 03:01:15 pm
Last I checked this was the Tremulous forums where we discuss Tremulous.
If you really must talk about other games here, then maybe you should say instead of leaving us to guess?
Tremfusion is NOT another game. ^^
TRemfusion is a CLIENT for Tremulous like the Mercenariesguild Client.
David, being one of the asshole dev supporters on Tremulous, seems obligated to bash Tremfusion because it's probably offering gameplay differences and fun and features in general that will draw attention away from the myth of 1.2.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: David on June 27, 2009, 03:13:09 pm
I dislike TF because they use underhand tactics to try and stop people leaving their client, have repeatedly lied to this community, and have a stated aim to steal tremulous players and then break compatibility.
And of course we are way off-topic now  ::)
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: {7}wrath on June 27, 2009, 03:49:01 pm
Wow, you're making them sound like Scientologists or something  :-\
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 27, 2009, 05:36:16 pm
David.
I think you're paranoid.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: your face on June 27, 2009, 06:03:20 pm
I dislike TF because they use underhand tactics to try and stop people leaving their client, have repeatedly lied to this community, and have a stated aim to steal tremulous players and then break compatibility.
And of course we are way off-topic now  ::)

No, YOU are way off-topic now.

Wait a sec, I don't think this topic is meant for being on-topic in.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: kevlarman on June 27, 2009, 06:05:05 pm
Last I checked this was the Tremulous forums where we discuss Tremulous.
If you really must talk about other games here, then maybe you should say instead of leaving us to guess?

Tremfusion is NOT another game. ^^
TRemfusion is a CLIENT for Tremulous like the Mercenariesguild Client.
tremfusion's developers have stated that it is a fork, not a tremulous client.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Archangel on June 27, 2009, 06:21:27 pm
they have multiple things. their overall project is yes, a fork, but a tremulous compatible branch does exist.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 27, 2009, 10:43:35 pm
What do you mean  with it is a fork?
When i translate it in german it is weird for me.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: mooseberry on June 27, 2009, 10:51:04 pm
They will spoon into frosty tremfusion flakes.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Bissig on June 27, 2009, 11:08:04 pm
What do you mean  with it is a fork?
When i translate it in german it is weird for me.

A split from a current projekt into a new one.

F.e. when someone/some group on a development team is unhappy about how the project is handled, with open source they can split off, use the codebase and move into a different direction then the original team.

Deutsch/german: Abspaltung, Ablösung (Im Sinne von Loslösung)
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: {7}wrath on June 28, 2009, 03:42:32 am
A fork, in this case, is a split from the old version to create a new version.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: gimhael on June 28, 2009, 07:22:28 am
Fork is usually translated as "Gabel", but in this case it's "Gabelung", i.e. there was only one project in the past, but it is now moving in (at least) two different directions.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 28, 2009, 03:10:57 pm
Now I understand =D
Thank you ^^

But Tremfusion is not a different Game.
It only gives the game more visual and technical features and improvements.
When we combine TremX with Tremfusion then a new Tremulous came out. ^^
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: kevlarman on June 28, 2009, 08:34:23 pm
a physics engine would make it incompatible with tremulous (not to mention tons of other incompatibilities already).
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 28, 2009, 09:41:54 pm
Not when the Physics Engine is included in a Tremfusion serverside .pk3 for Tremfusion servers
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: kevlarman on June 29, 2009, 12:18:27 am
it can't be included in a pk3. it requires client changes.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 29, 2009, 08:31:05 am
Then they could build in two gameplay path's.
One activated if we go with the tremfusion client on a non tremfusion server and the other gameplay path gets activated when we go on a tremfusion server.
Should be possible.
Or they make two cliients.
One for non tremfusion server and one for tremfusion servers.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Odin on June 29, 2009, 09:03:17 am
Then they could build in two gameplay path's.
One activated if we go with the tremfusion client on a non tremfusion server and the other gameplay path gets activated when we go on a tremfusion server.
Should be possible.
Or they make two cliients.
One for non tremfusion server and one for tremfusion servers.
Thereby reinforcing the "fork" status.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 29, 2009, 09:07:24 am
Did you know that the mercenaries guild will add yreal to his client and tremulous 1.2 too?
odin.mercenariesguild.net[/b]/xreal/tremulous/screenshots/xreal-20090108-032250-000.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gameboom.net/node/1015&usg=__eBwxE6FV_9gGQpmyT2AhaI_WAB8=&h=1024&w=1280&sz=379&hl=de&start=10&um=1&tbnid=DkCIi9d3aNk4ZM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dxreal%26hl%3Dde%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1]http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://odin.mercenariesguild.net/xreal/tremulous/screenshots/xreal-20090108-032250-000.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gameboom.net/node/1015&usg=__eBwxE6FV_9gGQpmyT2AhaI_WAB8=&h=1024&w=1280&sz=379&hl=de&start=10&um=1&tbnid=DkCIi9d3aNk4ZM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dxreal%26hl%3Dde%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://[b)
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 29, 2009, 09:08:10 am
sorry link was broken
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://odin.mercenariesguild.net/xreal/tremulous/screenshots/xreal-20090108-032250-000.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gameboom.net/node/1015&usg=__eBwxE6FV_9gGQpmyT2AhaI_WAB8=&h=1024&w=1280&sz=379&hl=de&start=10&um=1&tbnid=DkCIi9d3aNk4ZM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dxreal%26hl%3Dde%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://odin.mercenariesguild.net/xreal/tremulous/screenshots/xreal-20090108-032250-000.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gameboom.net/node/1015&usg=__eBwxE6FV_9gGQpmyT2AhaI_WAB8=&h=1024&w=1280&sz=379&hl=de&start=10&um=1&tbnid=DkCIi9d3aNk4ZM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dxreal%26hl%3Dde%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Baconizer on June 29, 2009, 09:35:09 am
I'm pretty certain 1.2 will not be using Xreal.

P.S. Please try to use the MODIFY button in future as well, thanks.

(http://tremulous.net/forum/Themes/Temp-Tremulous/images/buttons/modify.gif)
Your friend.

Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 29, 2009, 11:45:21 am
Oh didn't know that i can edit my posts O.O
But the mecenariesguild is working on.
Aren't they?

/Edit:
Weird I posted it to Amanieu but it goes in this topic. -.-
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: gimhael on June 29, 2009, 12:56:43 pm
I think everything that fundamentally breaks the compatibility with the existing 1.1 clients (physics engine, Xreal renderer) should not be part of 1.2, but should be in a 2.0 release.

IMHO: finish what has to be finished to get 1.2 out before you start a project that's at least 10x the scope of the 1.1 to 1.2 development.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 29, 2009, 01:26:34 pm
But if Amanieu released a patch for the source code to put xreal and bullet in tremulous it could be included with 1.2
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: {7}wrath on June 29, 2009, 02:08:11 pm
As a modeler, I would be extremely happy to see Xreal in a future version of tremulous. It seems to me that Xreal can handle much larger polycounts in the models, which would be extremely useful.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Asvarox on June 29, 2009, 02:09:38 pm
But if Amanieu released a patch for the source code to put xreal and bullet in tremulous it could be included with 1.2
As stated few times in this thread, in could be included, but it WON'T BE INCLUDED IN 1.2.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 29, 2009, 03:14:51 pm
But if Amanieu released a patch for the source code to put xreal and bullet in tremulous it could be included with 1.2
As stated few times in this thread, in could be included, but it WON'T BE INCLUDED IN 1.2.
Are you one of the developers?
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: N.U.K.E. on June 29, 2009, 03:18:44 pm
no, just because it would fry my suck-ass pc (atm it runs trem with 30fps at most)

And why would you even want one?
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: David on June 29, 2009, 03:44:09 pm
The devs have already said they won't be changing engine.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Thorn on June 29, 2009, 05:34:01 pm
sorry link was broken
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://odin.mercenariesguild.net/xreal/tremulous/screenshots/xreal-20090108-032250-000.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gameboom.net/node/1015&usg=__eBwxE6FV_9gGQpmyT2AhaI_WAB8=&h=1024&w=1280&sz=379&hl=de&start=10&um=1&tbnid=DkCIi9d3aNk4ZM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dxreal%26hl%3Dde%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://odin.mercenariesguild.net/xreal/tremulous/screenshots/xreal-20090108-032250-000.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gameboom.net/node/1015&usg=__eBwxE6FV_9gGQpmyT2AhaI_WAB8=&h=1024&w=1280&sz=379&hl=de&start=10&um=1&tbnid=DkCIi9d3aNk4ZM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dxreal%26hl%3Dde%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)

hmm.
ugly screenshot.
http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/xreal/trem/xreal-20090712-124707-000.png
http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/xreal/trem/xreal-20090711-092207-000.png

ty

u can ignore the framerate counter
i gimped it in
just because now we will get the same old poor argument
buy a damn gfx card pls
and sit in the corner

everytime someone wants to make a positive contribution to tremulous, say, work for a new renderer, a physics engine, they are turned away.
then you have the nerve to complain that they are "forking" when they decide to do what the people want
welcome to opensource
now
back to your corner
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on June 29, 2009, 06:22:34 pm
With my old Graphic Card (an ATI Sapphire Radeon X850 Pro with Pixel Shader 2.0) i could run Quake 4 on Ultra graphics, a 2.2 GHz Dual Core and with 1 GB RAM smoothly with no lags and stoppers.
And you would only need a Radeon X850 Pro to run the game rendered with Xreal smoothly.
And the next version of my old car(the ATI Radeon X1550) has Pixel Shader 3.0 and cost only 14-20 $ or €.
Don't tell me you havn't got enough money for it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ATI-RADEON-X1550-DDR2-256-LP-VIDEO-CARD-PCIE-TESTED_W0QQitemZ280354705723QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Video_TV_Cards?hash=item414671513b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A3|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ATI-RADEON-X1550-DDR2-256-LP-VIDEO-CARD-PCIE-TESTED_W0QQitemZ280354705723QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Video_TV_Cards?hash=item414671513b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A3|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50)
And for AGP you will get it for less money.

/Edit:
How did you got Tremulous with Xreal renderer?
Please tell it to me  :) =D

/Edit0:
Know it now. Need to run Tremulous as mod in Xreal. ^^

BTW:
A new renderer would be clientside only.
If you don't want to run tremulous on xreal cuz you are scared about using it on low graphics or you are a kind of Amish People and don't like new things like a new renderer or a new physics system then don't use Tremfusion.
But when you want to use Tremfusion then i am proud to told you that ou can actualy use a Cel Shading Renderer. Tremulous will look a little like Team Fortress with it. (It would need more brighter textures to look like a funny comic game) Later you can use it with Xreal.
And the Xreal renderer is faster than the Quake 4 renderer and looks like Quake 4.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Thorn on June 29, 2009, 08:17:14 pm
blah blah

And the Xreal renderer is faster than the Quake 4 renderer and looks like Quake 4.

Xreal runs smoother than Quake4 with the same features. The only thing is, xreal isn't limited to those features. Xreal is on par with Commercial engines such as UE3 on the tech side of things.
The only reason you never see proper work coming out of xreal is the lack of decent artists, and the rather cranky old toolchain (radiant etc).
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: danmal on June 30, 2009, 02:48:43 am
People sure seem very possesive about their code which is kinda strange considering the licence they released it under. I don't know why the Trem devs didn't just do what the UrT devs did and kept the code closed source.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: jal on June 30, 2009, 11:45:33 am
Ye, sure. Move to xreal, add a physics engine, and release Trem 1.2 in 5 years from now. Thanks... but no.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: SlackerLinux on June 30, 2009, 12:14:27 pm
Ye, sure. Move to xreal, add a physics engine, and release Trem 1.2 in 5 years from now. Thanks... but no.

even without it the trem devs wont release Trem 1.2 till 5 years from now( if ever ).

at least with TF we can expect progress. i like that TF is moving to bullet and XReal should make their "fork" to be a better replacement for 1.2 which is  happening.

People sure seem very possesive about their code which is kinda strange considering the licence they released it under. I don't know why the Trem devs didn't just do what the UrT devs did and kept the code closed source.

if they did that then all servers would be running 1.1 code trem servers would be crashed constantly. opensource is 1 very good point about tremulous.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: danmal on July 01, 2009, 01:28:02 am
Don't get me wrong I like how Tremulous is opensource. It just seems strange to me that someone would discourage other people from using their code when they used a fairly liberal licence like the GPL.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: your face on July 01, 2009, 01:56:33 am
Don't get me wrong I like how Tremulous is opensource. It just seems strange to me that someone would discourage other people from using their code when they used a fairly liberal licence like the GPL.
+1
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: Odin on July 01, 2009, 03:14:30 am
Don't get me wrong I like how Tremulous is opensource. It just seems strange to me that someone would discourage other people from using their code when they used a fairly liberal licence like the GPL.
Because when you take the code, then make it incompatible with the original product, that is a fork. Forking is something frowned upon because it splits the fanbase and potential developers in two, ending up getting nothing done for the original product, and the fork going nowhere. Why would it go nowhere? Because the fans of the original product get bored and leave, while the fork gets none of the users of the old product, thereby leaving it in a state of useless development for nobody. Forks are sometimes beneficial(take a look at XFree86/Xorg), but in this case it's of no use to anyone to take the code then break compatibility, when you could be sending patches in to the original product, furthering it to 1.2 status. I believe TremFusion will go the way of Cedega, having some nice features but eventually being phased out by the original product(Wine).

The XreaL renderer is nice but there has yet to be a discovered way to port it in its current state to ioQ3 without breaking compatibility with 1.1 servers. The XreaL renderer depends on a new BSP version, which means all maps would have to be recompiled, not to mention converted to Doom3 format first. Think this is easy? Think again. I've gone through this grueling process. It is not fun or worthwhile.

About my screenshot: It is old as hell and was taken when HDR was new, and before the new BSP format(which meant no HDR lightgrid!) resulting in what looks like shit compared to now. The current HDR is so much better than it was back then.

I agree that getting a new renderer would be a 2.0 thing, not 1.2. 1.2 is getting closer and closer every day. If we keep adding new things to bugfix, 1.2 will never get done. A new renderer is not for a mere point release.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: {7}wrath on July 01, 2009, 03:17:58 am
This.

This is the most common sense I have read in this entire thread. Lets wait until both Xreal and Tremulous have developed first, shall we?
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: danmal on July 01, 2009, 09:04:56 am
Because when you take the code, then make it incompatible with the original product, that is a fork. Forking is something frowned upon because it splits the fanbase and potential developers in two, ending up getting nothing done for the original product, and the fork going nowhere.

Forking is advantageous because it generally only occurs when 2 people have different visions of how a project should proceed. This leads to two different projects that have diverging goals and consequently are quite different to each other. You don't split the fanbase because the projects end up doing two different things. Same idea with the devs. The devs aren't paid so they generally code things that they're interested in. This means that a fork won't necessarily draw devs away from the original project because the fork will be doing something different. Not to mention that code can be shared between each project.

Why would it go nowhere? Because the fans of the original product get bored and leave, while the fork gets none of the users of the old product, thereby leaving it in a state of useless development for nobody.

Trem hasn't had a release in over 3 years. I don't think we have to worry about people getting bored and leaving. Even if the fork doesn't get many of the old projects fans (it's quite likely because lets face it, a lot of people run Trem because of it's modest system requirements) it will attract new fans because of the different direction it's heading in.

Forks are sometimes beneficial(take a look at XFree86/Xorg), but in this case it's of no use to anyone to take the code then break compatibility, when you could be sending patches in to the original product, furthering it to 1.2 status. I believe TremFusion will go the way of Cedega, having some nice features but eventually being phased out by the original product(Wine).

Cedega is in a completely different boat. Unlike Cedega and Wine both Tremulous and Tremfusion use the GPL. This allows them to share patches which Cedega and Wine can no longer (or aren't willing to) do.

The XreaL renderer is nice but there has yet to be a discovered way to port it in its current state to ioQ3 without breaking compatibility with 1.1 servers. The XreaL renderer depends on a new BSP version, which means all maps would have to be recompiled, not to mention converted to Doom3 format first. Think this is easy? Think again. I've gone through this grueling process. It is not fun or worthwhile.

Was it easy to make the maps in the first place? People have already expressed interest in creating maps for a Tremulous which uses an XReal engine.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on July 02, 2009, 07:06:51 pm
This.

This is the most common sense I have read in this entire thread. Lets wait until both Xreal and Tremulous have developed first, shall we?

What do you mean?
Xreal and Tremulous are already developed. O.o

/Edit0:

Cuz Tremfusion is opensource the trem developers could add bullet and xreal to trem after 1.2 and when amanieu is finish.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: kevlarman on July 03, 2009, 05:13:28 am
What do you mean?
Xreal and Tremulous are already developed. O.o
xreal's renderer changes often, maps/models/etc. made for it now might require being remade in the (possibly near) future.
Title: Re: Will it be a good Idea if the developers build in a better Physics Engine?
Post by: MartinX3 on July 03, 2009, 03:45:20 pm
And in serveral years Xreal will reaches Crysis niveau =)
But will be faster than crysis ^^