Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Jalaco on July 03, 2009, 12:15:26 am
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Playing trem for the last around 2 years has led me to believe that everyone says the humans are harder to play, I've played the humans and dont totally agree. But I recently think I figured out the famed balance issue in why aliens win 75 percent of games. Kills per a stage. 80 percent of the time the aliens have more kills, therefore, aliens get the stage earlier, and therefore get more power, faster. So what I'm simply suggesting, will either take one g_cvar, or possibly change one line of code, I've never run a server so I wouldn't know, and it is this: Either have humans with less kills to get a stage up, or aliens with more kills. Even if the kills were only modified to stage 2, I belive this will help balance.
\\^// Jalaco \\^//
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already exists
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The main problem why humans don't win more than 25% of the time is due to teamwork issues.
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The main problem why humans don't win more than 25% of the time is due to teamwork issues.
agreed.
S1 goon headbite is OP though but get a pack of 3-4 humans with shotguns and the tides turn. you start realize that most maps and the whole game for that matter is more human biased. aliens cant use teamwork like humans can. get a pack of humans together and you wont even reach them before you and whoever else was with you is dead.
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/g_humanStage2Threshold ?
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I would say the balance problems come more from the inherent problems with melee vs ranged and camping(you could also call it a lack of human teamwork). It is only natural that a corner camping melee unit will beat a ranged unit unless they do some fancy footwork. As for the changing the stages counters I would have to say no to that. Stage two humans vs stage two aliens is very human biased.
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The main problem why humans don't win more than 25% of the time is due to teamwork issues.
agreed.
S1 goon headbite is OP though but get a pack of 3-4 humans with shotguns and the tides turn.
So humans are supposed to use numerical advantage against a single goon ? Let me try. 3-4 goons meet a human...
See, if you want to pretend you can solve issues like that with teamwork/ganging up, you can't forget anyone on alien team can become a dragoon. If there are 3 dragoons among aliens, using primitive arithmetic you'd need 9-12 humans to kill them. There just aren't that many humans. It will only work as long as number of goons (or big aliens in general) is very small. Until perhaps stage3, no single human can confidently challenge a goon to a duel and win. And because both teams have roughly the same number of players....
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The main problem why humans don't win more than 25% of the time is due to teamwork issues.
agreed.
S1 goon headbite is OP though but get a pack of 3-4 humans with shotguns and the tides turn.
So humans are supposed to use numerical advantage against a single goon ? Let me try. 3-4 goons meet a human...
See, if you want to pretend you can solve issues like that with teamwork/ganging up, you can't forget anyone on alien team can become a dragoon. If there are 3 dragoons among aliens, using primitive arithmetic you'd need 9-12 humans to kill them. There just aren't that many humans. It will only work as long as number of goons (or big aliens in general) is very small. Until perhaps stage3, no single human can confidently challenge a goon to a duel and win. And because both teams have roughly the same number of players....
Actually a helmet shotgun can take down a goon by himself if he knows how to dodge.
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A goon is basically a giant target cross when met by a skilled human. That's why on 1.1 settings I prefer the smaller classes. I even get less killed as a mara than as a goon.
Three goons = Two shotties take them on, and due to all the blocking and depending on location only one goon at a time can strike effectively, meaning all shots are hits. And you will see how fast those goons go down. Of course, this means friendly fire has to be off.
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A goon is basically a giant target cross when met by a skilled human. That's why on 1.1 settings I prefer the smaller classes. I even get less killed as a mara than as a goon.
Three goons = Two shotties take them on, and due to all the blocking and depending on location only one goon at a time can strike effectively, meaning all shots are hits. And you will see how fast those goons go down. Of course, this means friendly fire has to be off.
It really does depend on skill of course, 3 goons can also easily kill 2 shotguns if they don't get in each others way and tk.
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Bissig:
I don't play on FF off servers unless I have no choice (1.2 playtesting servers)
And it depends on area, of course, I'll grant you that. Just don't forget that each of humans needs line of sight too, blocking is also a concern.
But consider this:
Basic dragoon has 200 HP. Shotgun deals 50ish damage with perfect hit, this means at least 4 shots per dragoon. Meanwhile humans often die in 1 hit from a dragoon (I'm not entirely sure if it's pounce+chop which is removed from 1.2, or just pounce). Does higher number of humans versus smaller number of goons really favour humans ? Each time a human dies their collective firepower goes down, and one of them can die really quickly. But it's harder to stop dragoon before it gets to hit something than other way around. For a human, it's often enough to just pop his head around wrong corner to die instantly. Especially in 1.1 where there's no dodge. It's more apparent in S1, without helmets. In many circumstances X goons has advantage over X humans, especially in lower stages.** Effective total power of alien team can be higher than total power of human team. Most s1, s2 humans don't have the skill to solo a goon.
* technically charging tyrant is fast but it can't jump over many things.
**If goons are too fat to put all of them in the same entrance they can attack from two sides, being the fastest creature in the game* it doesn't take long to get to the other base entrance. Ok, goons are not great in tight spots, but this implies they already won a partial victory - they forced humans to concentrate in small area and around tight passages. As soon as humans spread out a bit, they die like flies.
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As for the original post:
in 1.1 stages are based just on kills, and I think this favours aliens ! Vast majority of kills seems to come from dragoons, and dragoons rarely die, and are harder to kill overall. Lack of helmet in S1 is really crippling, no matter what you do you can die in hit hit from dragoon or 2 from dretch.
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How do I delete duplicate posts ? Or any posts for that matter ?
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Well let's say, it all depends on: skill, map, teamwork.
Mostly teamwork, less skilled team can win against more skilled lonely humans.
Also, play without unlagged. The balance issuses are lower there.
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Goons are only a threat if you don't have armor or don't work with teammates.
It never ceases to amaze me how people play a team based game like a deathmatch.
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It's all about the movement really. Unskilled humans don't move enough. The formation of groups will happen on its own. There's not enough room for a bunch of humans leaving their base to not run into other humans, and people will stop at certain points for their own safety, which provides time for the group to thicken.
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It's an endless cycle. Nobody plays humans, because they think they are too hard. When nobody plays them, you get more unskilled players. When there are unskilled players, aliens win. When aliens win, people assume humans are hard.
What you need to do, is get more people to play humans. Para made an alien guide, if there was a human guide equally as extensive, perhaps we would see some results.
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the human team is always full
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@frazzler
Could you stop posting utter bullshit please?
Nr.1: For a beginner things such as wallwalk, building on walls and evolving are very confusing. Thus, they die very often, get yelled at and get utterly frustrated. I even got motion sickness in the beginning if I would play dretch for longer than five minutes -> Noobs go human
Nr.2: Second reason a beginner goes human is because the gameplay is much more familiar. Point -> click -> alien dead -> Noobs go human
Usually the pros play Alien more often because it is more challenging and also more unusual. F.e.: I absolutely love the alien movement and the orientation in three dimensions whereas humans more or less move on a two dimensional plane with the extravaganze of moving up and down the stairs or elevators.
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the human team is always full
true that
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@ Bissig:
Could you please stop insulting not just me, but everyone else on the forums, and post something constructive that may actually help to FIX the problem, instead of giving a detailed explanation of WHY newbies play humans?
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He didn't insult you, he asked you politely to stop posting stuff you're not sure about.
the human team is always full
true that
true that
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@ Bissig:
Could you please stop insulting not just me, but everyone else on the forums, and post something constructive that may actually help to FIX the problem, instead of giving a detailed explanation of WHY newbies play humans?
If you don't go into the issue, how can you go into the solution?
He didn't insult you, he asked you politely to stop posting stuff you're not sure about.
the human team is always full
true that
true that
true that
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next person i see starting a quote pyramid gets banned.
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next person i see starting a quote pyramid gets banned.
Why ban the one who started it, usually that's the one who has quoted only once ?
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kevlarman has always been known for his undeniable logic
BTW: if you think that is a "quote pyramid," all I can say is, hahaha.
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Hmmm, memories...
Frankly, Im completely cack-handed with a dragoon, I lose site of the human, my bites never land, I get blasted to pieces, its embarressing.
I feel so different :D
But I love the helmet+shotgun.
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Aliens get kills faster because one dretch can eat a group of s1 humans. And when the s1 humans die they go back, again and again and again and make the same mistakes every time. Tell the newbs to stay at the base and build.
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Tell the newbs to stay at the base and build.
How about letting the noobs die a lot like in other games?
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Tell the newbs to stay at the base and build.
How about letting the noobs die a lot like in other games?
Because that's the answer of "How enemy team got s2 so fast? ???"
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Tell the newbs to stay at the base and build.
How about letting the noobs die a lot like in other games?
Because that's the answer of "How enemy team got s2 so fast? ???"
Haha, I couldn't have said it better myself :D
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Tell the newbs to stay at the base and build.
How about letting the noobs die a lot like in other games?
Because that's the answer of "How enemy team got s2 so fast? ???"
Haha, I couldn't have said it better myself :D
The problem is that noobs are trying to have fun. Maybe they don't like to build and when they would start building, people start whining about bad building. >:(