Tremulous Forum
General => Announcements => Topic started by: Norfenstein on September 12, 2009, 05:47:39 pm
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Here's a mostly complete list of gameplay changes for 1.2. If you want something explained or justified feel free to ask, though for most of the number tweaks the answer is likely to amount to "it was a judgement call based on feedback and how the game was being played". At this point it's highly unlikely that anything else major (e.g. something getting added or removed) is going to change, but the beta period will most likely lead to some minor adjustments. See the following post for some preemptive explanations.
Distances are given in game units, times are given in milliseconds except where noted, regen rates are in health per second.
- General
- marked deconstruction
- instead of instantly removing structures, deconstruct will now mark them as no longer needed
- marked structures will be automatically removed when more build points are needed or when a marked structure is blocking the placement of a new structure
- when reclaiming build points for a new structure, the first marked structure of the same type will be taken down; if none are marked, structures will be taken down in the order they were marked
- unpowered human structures will be removed immediately instead of marked (since they use no build points to be reclaimed)
- g_markedDeconstruct
- 0 - disable marking, structures are removed immediately (no build timer penalty)
- 1 - can't build over marked structures
- 2 - can only build structures of the same type over marked structures
- 3 (default) - no restriction on building over marked structures
- build point queuing
- structures destroyed by enemy players will not immediately become available for reuse, but instead enter a queue
- build points will gradually leave the queue to become available again, at a rate proportional to the amount of points in the queue
- the longest number of seconds between returning build points (i.e. when only 1 point is in the queue) is governed by g_HumanQueueTime and g_AlienQueueTime (default 8 and 12, respectively)
- for humans, build point queuing only applies to structures powered directly by the reactor (including repeaters themselves), and only while the reactor is actually alive (see the section on zone build points under Repeater)
- the timer for complimentary funds (governed now by g_freeKillPeriod, default 2 minutes) no longer resets on death nor on earning funds from other sources
- new votes
- nextmap - sets the next map without ending the current one
- sudden_death - starts sudden death after g_suddenDeathVoteDelay seconds (default 180), requires g_suddenDeathVotePercent to pass (default 74, set to 0 to disable SD voting)
- funds are kept when switching teams (and converted appropriately; see the section on partial frags under Aliens)
- the credit for damaging a player or structure (used to distribute funds and points when a player or structure dies) is now cleared when the player or structure heals to full health
- staging up is based on funds earned instead of kills
- consequently, damage from structures no longer ever contributes to staging up
- scoreboard shows "Score" instead of kills
- score is based on funds earned, with large bonuses for killing enemy structures, and time-based points for builders
- g_dretchPunt - dretches get knocked back by alien attacks (does no damage when friendly fire is on)
- say_area - send a message to teammates within g_sayAreaRange (default 1000)
- build timers now match up with structure build times
- was: 17/12/17.5/15 seconds for all structures (double for Overmind/Reactor) built by a granger/advanced granger/construction kit/advanced construction kit
- the HUD indicator is now 2.5 seconds per slice for both teams
- Aliens
- all alien values increased 20%
- regen off-creep and outside a healing aura is 1/3 normal
- partial frags - values for killing humans are no longer rounded to whole numbers
- default max build points increased 100 -> 150
- default max build queue timer 12000
- regeneration is now smooth - health always returns 1 point per tick but at varying intervals
- evolving no longer resets velocity (can now evolve mid-jump without just falling out of the air)
- Granger
- regular
- movement speed increased 0.8 -> 0.9
- FOV increased to advanced's value 80 -> 110
- has slash attack
- advanced
- movement speed reduced 1.0 -> 0.9
- bounding box reduced to regular granger size 50x50x50 -> 40x40x40
- model scale reduced to regular granger size 1.25 -> 1.0
- takes falling damage
- Dretch
- damage reduced 48 -> 36
- movement speed increased 1.3 -> 1.4
- base value reduced 175 -> 150
- regen increased 1 -> 1.25
- model scale increased 1 -> 1.2
- Basilisk
- both
- slash range reduced 96 -> 64
- grab range increased 64 -> 96
- jump magnitude increased 270 -> 310
- silent footsteps
- grabs no longer affects turrets
- regular
- health reduced 75 -> 60
- base regen reduced 2 -> 1.8
- healing aura x2
- advanced
- health reduced 100 -> 80
- base regen reduced 3 -> 2.4
- healing aura x3
- base grab time reduced to regular basilisk's time 450 -> 300
- slash and grab range increased to compensate bounding box increase over regular basilisk (+3 to regular values)
- gas range range reduced 200 -> 120
- gas repeat increased 2000 -> 2500
- gas effect
- no longer poisons (even if boosted)
- slows movement the same way creep does
- affects armoured humans
- slow lasts for 10 seconds minus a number of seconds for armour (3 bsuit, 1 helmet, 1 larmour)
- aim muddling lasts for 2.5 seconds (not affected by armour)
- Marauder
- both
- base slash range reduced 96 -> 80
- slash width increased 12 -> 14
- jump magnitude reduced 400 -> 380
- can now walljump off entities and sloped walls
- regular
- bounding box reduced 50x50x38 -> 44x44x34
- view height reduced 10 -> 8
- regen increased 4 -> 4.5
- advanced
- bounding box reduced 52x52x42 -> 48x48x38
- view height reduced 12 -> 10
- regen increased 5 -> 5.25
- slash range increased to compensate bounding box increase over regular marauder (+2 to regular value)
- new zap - on a hit, chains to up to 4 targets within range of the first, instantly dealing 60 non-locational damage to all targets
- Dragoon
- both
- base bite range reduced 96 -> 72
- base pounce range reduced 72 -> 54
- pounce width reduced 16 -> 14
- pounce charge time increased 700 -> 800
- pounce never damages teammates/friendly structures, even with friendly fire on
- pounce now does knockback
- can no longer bite while pouncing
- the delay after pouncing and being able to bite (400ms) now applies after landing instead of after hitting
- regular
- bite repeat increased 700 -> 900
- advanced
- available at stage 2
- bounding box reduced 64x64x67 -> 58x58x66
- model scale reduced 1.25 -> 1.15
- advanced bite and pounce range increased to compensate bounding box increase over regular dragoon (+3 to regular values)
- bite repeat increased 600 -> 800
- regen increased 7 -> 7.5
- barb changes
- repeat increase 1000 -> 1200
- regen increased 10000 -> 15000
- splash radius increased 0 -> 75
- Tyrant
- view height increased 35 -> 64
- slash range reduced 128 -> 100
- slash width reduced 20 -> 14 (slash height kept at 20)
- slash repeat increased 750 -> 800
- healing aura removed
- health reduced 400 -> 350
- base regen increased 7 -> 8.25
- trample changes
- minimum charge time reduced 750 -> 375
- maximum charge time reduced 1500 -> 1000
- charge can be held without automatically firing for up to 2 seconds after fully charging
- trampling stops after winding down to the minimum charge, instead of after winding down completely
- can no longer be charged by walking into a wall
- repeat reduced 1000 -> 100
- damage increased 110 -> 111
- no longer does locational damage
- crush attack
- damages humans and human structures when falling on top of them
- 120 + half falling velocity nonlocational damage, 500 repeat (only repeats for players, not structures)
- trample and crush never damage teammates/friendly structures, even with friendly fire on
- Egg
- death splash radius increased 50 -> 100
- no longer gives credits
- Acid tube
- damage increased 6 -> 8
- repeat increased 200 -> 300
- death splash radius reduced 300 -> 100
- Barricade
- cost reduced 10 -> 8
- health increased 200 -> 300
- death splash radius increased 50 -> 100
- shrink when aliens try to jump over
- Booster
- death splash radius increased 50 -> 100
- regen mod increased x2 -> x3
- boost time reduced 30000 -> 20000
- boost time can be reset when already boosted
- poison changes
- effect lasts 10 seconds
- damage is per second, 5 minus modifiers for armour (3 bsuit, 1 helmet, 1 larmour)
- poison can be reapplied (resets the 10 second counter)
- medkits no longer give temporary immunity
- no longer lost when evolving
- Hive
- bounding box reduced 70x70x50 -> 40x40x40
- sense range increased 400 -> 500
- fires at attackers regardless of range
- repeat reduced 5000 -> 3000
- no longer fires if the swarm won't be able to hit
- fires from the top of its bounding box
- can have more than one swarm active at a time
- swarm changes
- damage increased 50 -> 80
- no longer do locational damage
- movement speed increased 240 -> 320
- lifetime reduced 15000 -> 3000
- no longer die from hitting a wall or being more than 6000 units from their hive
- target the nearest human instead of chasing the same one until death
- Hovel
- Overmind
- Humans
- headshot modifier reduced x2 -> x1.5
- sprint changed from boost to +button8 - hold down to sprint, release to stop sprinting
- cg_sprintToggle - change the behavior of +button8 to toggle sprinting
- initiating a sprint is no longer disabled when blacking out (previously you could continue to sprint into a black-out, but couldn't start if you were already blacking out)
- dodge
- a quick, low jump: x0.5 vertical, x2.9 lateral (x0.9 when slowed), 500ms delay after landing before jumping/dodging again
- +button6, hold down while strafing or moving backwards
- jump stamina cost reduced 500 -> 250
- unpowered structures will explode after 90 seconds
- base view height reduced 26 -> 24
- base crouching view height reduced 12 -> 7
- firing an empty weapon makes a clicking noise (audible to aliens)
- non-locational armour protection formula changed, amounting to following change in values:
- old:
- larm - 0.31
- helm - 0.65
- larm+helm - 0.2015
- bsuit - 0.2
- new:
- standing
- larm - 0.534375
- helm - 0.812500
- larm+helm - 0.346875
- bsuit - 0.221875
- crouching
- larm - 0.585326
- helm - 0.771739
- larm+helm - 0.357065
- Construction Kit
- removed Advanced Construction Kit (regular kit now builds everything that's available)
- repairing is done automatically when possible, without needing to press a button
- deconstructing unpowered structures will immediately remove them, instead of marking them for deconstruction
- displays local build points when in a repeater's power zone (see the section on zone build points under Repeater) and the reactor's build points when not
- Blaster
- damage increased 9 -> 10
- projectile volume 10 cubed (against entities but not map architecture)
- Painsaw
- damage reduced 15 -> 11
- range increased 40 -> 64
- height of 8 (width is still 0)
- Shotgun
- pellet count increased 8 -> 14
- damage reduced 7 -> 4
- Mass Driver
- damage increased 38 -> 40
- Chaingun
- spread reduced 1000 -> 900
- damage reduced 6 -> 5
- Flamethrower
- cost reduced 450 -> 400
- projectile speed increased 200 -> 300
- projectile lifetime reduced 800 -> 700
- muzzle offset lowered (can now fire in vents without self-immolating)
- Pulse Rifle
- cost increased 400 -> 450
- clip size reduced 50 -> 40
- max clips increased 4 -> 5
- projectile speed increased 1000 -> 1200
- projectile volume 10 cubed (against entities but not map architecture)
- Lucifer Cannon
- can no longer cancel charges with secondary fire
- ammo capacity reduced 90 -> 80
- projectile volume (primary and secondary) 10 cubed (against entities but not map architecture)
- primary fire
- projectile speed increased 350 -> 700
- max charge time increased 2000 -> 3000
- secondary fire
- damage increased 27 -> 30
- projectile speed increased 350 -> 1400
- repeat increased 500 -> 1000
- Jetpack
- stamina now returns while moving in flight
- Light Armour
- no longer reduces the stamina taken by sprinting
- Helmet
- modifier increased 0.3 -> 0.4
- Battlesuit
- modifier for head region (0.8 - 1.0) increased 0.2 -> 0.27
- viewheight increased 26 -> 29
- Telenode
- Turret
- turning speed increased 8 -> 12
- repeat increased 100 -> 150
- sense range increased 300 -> 400
- damage increased 4 -> 8
- defense computer boosting removed
- basilisk grabbing removed
- spinup delay of 750 (delay between acquiring/reacquiring a target and firing)
- Tesla
- range reduced 250 -> 150
- damage increased 9 -> 10
- no longer require defense computers
- fires from the top of its bounding box to the top of its target's bounding box (can now fire over turrets)
- Defense Computer
- no longer affects turrets
- no longer required for teslas
- repairs structures in its range 3 health per second, with a 2 second delay after taking damage (this effect stacks with multiple DCs)
- range reduced 10000 -> 1000 (range affects what structures it heals and warns about)
- fixed a bug that broke defense computers when built farther from the map origin than their range
- Armoury
- health increased 280 -> 420
- Reactor
- no longer gives frags
- fixed a bug that made the defensive zap deal more damage when multiple targets were in range
- Repeater
- available at stage 1
- cost increased 0 -> 4
- no longer explode if not powering anything for 90 seconds
- zone build points
- repeaters provide a pool of 20 local build points that can only be used in their power zone
- points from the reactor's pool can no longer be built outside the reactor's zone
- power zones may overlap, but repeaters can not be built inside an existing zone
- if a structure is built in the overlap of a repeater's zone and the reactor's zone, it will only take power from the reactor
- Medistation
- restores 30 stamina per 100ms
- cures poison to anyone that touches one regardless of who is being healed
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Some preemptive explanations / frequently asked questions.
omgwtfhovel
This was a matter of editing. Hovels served no purpose not covered by other structures, and we couldn't think of and didn't receive any good ideas for it, so I decided the best course of action was removing it altogether. Think of it as an extra model for modders to use.
What's with the weird alien regen values?
Alien health doesn't return in chunks one a second at a time anymore, it now returns one point at a time at varying intervals. Since this allows for greater precision in defining regen values, I defined them in terms of percentage of a class's max health per second:- Granger - 4%
- Dretch - 5%
- Basilisk - 3% (not counting their healing auras)
- Marauder - 3%
- Dragoon - 3%
- Tyrant - 2.5%
Attack width? Height? Repeat?
Width and height are basically how accurate you have to be in order to hit with a melee attack. For most attacks the width is used for both the horizontal and vertical axes, but the tyrant slash and painsaw now have a separate vertical value so that tyrants can still hit teles/medis with their shorter range and battlesuits can now finally saw dretches. Repeat is how long you're forced to wait between attacks, so lower means you can fire/slash/etc. more frequently.
Those non-locational damage modifiers make no sense.
Well, they make more sense than they did before. I didn't want any armour to be of wildly different value for locational and non-locational damage so we made the formula for non-locational damage take into account what regions a piece of armour covers. Light armour, for example, leaves you vulnerable to non-locational damage because it doesn't cover your head, so I didn't think it was appropriate that it quadrupled the number of pounces you could take before dying. And now a battlesuit is actually better than wearing light armour with a helmet. Crouching produces different modifiers because light armour and helmet have different locational modifiers/coverage when crouching (the old formula just averaged everything together). I felt that having a formula that used the locational modifiers was better than arbitrarily maintaining two different sets of numbers.
Why no fund reward for destroying structures?
The tradeoff with awarding funds for structures is that it allows builders to feed, badly. At one point in development we awarded funds for all structures with the hope that it would encourage players to be more aggressive, but it didn't really accomplish that enough to warrant severely punishing teams for trying to build forward, or for just trying non-standard bases.
We might have kept funds for spawns/reactor/om, but the choice seemed arbitrary. Overmind/reactor might be equivalent enough to each other, but if the reactor goes down it's very unlikely that the 3 frags it'd award would make a difference in the outcome of the game. Eggs and telenodes are not equivalent since aliens need to put eggs in harm's way if they want forward bases. I could maybe see doing it for repeaters in addition to eggs and telenodes, but I'd rather see builders unafraid of being aggressive (especially since one successfully aggressive builder can set up a platform for numerous teammates to go on offense, as opposed to giving one reward to one attacker for killing an enemy structure).
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The hovel can be used as second barricade. Just it's a lower one.
What about hovel teleportation for grangers?
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The hovel can be used as second barricade. Just it's a lower one.
Hovels served no purpose not covered by other structures...
I don't see a reason to have two structures for a team that serve exactly the same purpose.
What about hovel teleportation for grangers?
Was discussed. Seemed to me like all it'd accomplish would be to make egg/granger-hunting an order of magnitude more aggravating.
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If hovel works only if an OM is up, I don't really think it will encourage egg spaming.
Because first, you have to build an egg, than an hovel (that is long to build), then build a second hovel. An human with psaw can destroy the Overmind if he found it before the second hovel is built.
Btw, I'm a bit disappointed that nodes/eggs/OM/RC don't give credits anymore. Why was this removed?
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The tradeoff with awarding funds for structures is that it allows builders to feed, badly. At one point in development we awarded funds for all structures with the hope that it would encourage players to be more aggressive, but it didn't really accomplish that enough to warrant severely punishing teams for trying to build forward, or for just trying non-standard bases.
We might have kept funds for spawns/reactor/om, but the choice seemed arbitrary. Overmind/reactor might be equivalent enough to each other, but if the reactor goes down it's very unlikely that the 3 frags it'd award would make a difference in the outcome of the game. Eggs and telenodes are not equivalent since aliens need to put eggs in harm's way if they want forward bases. I could maybe see doing it for repeaters in addition to eggs and telenodes, but I'd rather see builders unafraid of being aggressive (especially since one successfully aggressive builder can set up a platform for numerous teammates to go on offense, as opposed to giving one reward to one attacker for killing an enemy structure).
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Making our grangars hovelless is really mean, but yeah, it was almost always used as free barricade. It also allowed builders to go to places where they shouldn't be, or leave the map altogether (at atcs, niveus, thanatos, and many, many more).
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i would've liked some form of fueled/timed jetpack use to be included to stop people who stay in air constantly in places where it is next to impossible to get them down. the hovels only use was to glitch im happy its gone.
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^^
timed jetpack with fuel would win at life, also, it shouldn't be so steady
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This should be fun. ;)
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About the hovel, try it before you say "no it makes for retarted egghunting". I know of at least one server that has it, and it's mainly used for aliens to switch quickly between attack/defense, or get tyrants to previously unreachable spots such as the higher platform in arachnid2.
Btw, vent flamer is epic win :D
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About the hovel, try it before you say "no it makes for retarted egghunting". I know of at least one server that has it, and it's mainly used for aliens to switch quickly between attack/defense, or get tyrants to previously unreachable spots such as the higher platform in arachnid2.
It's not just egghunting. Aliens already have a significant advantage over humans in terms of mobility -- switching between attack and defense is already easier for them than for humans. I don't think increasing that advantage would benefit the game.
i would've liked some form of fueled/timed jetpack use to be included to stop people who stay in air constantly in places where it is next to impossible to get them down.
This is a very common request, but I disagree that skycamping is a problem. It's useful sometimes -- and I want to keep it useful sometimes -- but people that do nothing but sit in the air simply don't contribute as much to their team as they could by doing other things. The proper response is to ignore them and go attack their base. I'm sure there are maps for which it really is a significant problem, but it's also possible to turn other benign things into major problems with questionable map design.
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As far as tyrants being able to reach previously unreachable places, the barricade now shrinks to allow aliens to pass over it, so you can just use that instead of the hovel.
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Jet pack's are only useful to me for building. I'm sure some of us feel that way as well.
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Nice, really nice. This should stop people to use only dretch/goon till s3.
Just a question, what is "repeat"? Is it the time between two attacks? I don't understand well.
For hovel, I always thought this building was a non-sense so...
For jet-campers, I already ignore them.
I'm wondering, when 1.2 will be officially released, will the servers display their version in serverlist? Like "base1.2" instead of "base" or something?
I think it's important to being able to know what version the server is running without using the Server Info thing.
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1.2 will have a new client, and has changed the network protocol.
So you will only see servers for the client you are running.
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1.2 will have a new client, and has changed the network protocol.
So you will only see servers for the client you are running.
Will 1.2 have an integrated GUID system?
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GUID (and all of g_admin etc) has been in trunk for ever.
EDIT: Should point out that this is just balance changes, lots of other things that have already gotten into trunk that aren't on this list. (EG voip and ipv6 and a million bug fixes)
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All of these changes sound great, it shows that you've put alot of thought into it.
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My opinion.
Hovel
Take away it from alien team is not so good cause aliens are an alien race so have strange structures, like hovel. And use it to go out from map , bah, just in some boring or funny games, not in normal.
About Humans
Dodge = s**t, sorry but i dont really like it.
Ckit is now useful :)
Flamer MUST take damage to you :)
Lucifer cannon is really overpowered
Turrets have a lot of damage and basilisk grab was useful to help mates to run away from them.
Tesla are really more useful now :)
DC mmhh i have doubts about its help
Repetears at stage 1 is not funny.
About Aliens
Really depowered.
About Servers and clients
I hope new version servers can be listed in old clients too.
End of My Opinion.
I think that a larger collaboration and more discussions between devs and players in the whole Tremulous Universe will help you and us to reach better results. Anyway thanks for your work guys.
Greetings.
[!!!]ghostisLoL.LSD
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@ghostisback: The client will determine what resources you can run the game with. That's code, models, animations, and anything regarding how the engine runs (physics calculations, map entities, etc). You will not be able to run 1.2 on the 1.1 client since 1.2 brings a lot of new things that are unavailable to 1.1.
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@ghostisback: The client will determine what resources you can run the game with. That's code, models, animations, and anything regarding how the engine runs (physics calculations, map entities, etc). You will not be able to run 1.2 on the 1.1 engine since 1.2 brings a lot of new things that are unavailable to 1.1.
???
It's the same engine...
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@ghostisback: The client will determine what resources you can run the game with. That's code, models, animations, and anything regarding how the engine runs (physics calculations, map entities, etc). You will not be able to run 1.2 on the 1.1 engine since 1.2 brings a lot of new things that are unavailable to 1.1.
???
It's the same engine...
Blah blah blah. Typo. Point is, 1.2 brings new things to the table that 1.1 doesn't support. It'd be like trying to play Trem on Nexuiz.
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Mostly the same. There are a few small changes (eg net code) that means that 1.2 and 1.1 wont be compatible.
Thus all the crap with backports.
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I like most of the changes; they may feel a bit weird, but I can see myself playing it.
There is only one change I despise: Why can't we have sprint stay "boost" and dodge be a separate command?
I have heard no good answer on this, it seems to just be ignored.
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They are different commands.
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"unpowered human structures will be removed immediately" should be "will be removed instead of marked" to make it less arbitrary.
Does complimentary funds timer reset to max when u earn less then the amount u would get from it?
Building: "the HUD indicator is now 5 seconds per slice for both teams" you mean 2.5?
Basi: "slash and grab range increased to compensate bounding box increase over regular basilisk (+3 to regular values)" I guess that only works if you are looking straight, but diagonally to corner of bbox increase is 5.19. Same for goons; 3.46 for maras.
Tyrant trample: "can longer be charged by walking into a wall" you mean "no longer"? And what is minimum height to kill RC in 1 hit? :P
And what is the max alien regen modifier? x3x3=x9? in base near booster and +basi?
Booster poison: "lasts 10 seconds" should be "damage lasts 10 seconds"
What about building eggs on walls?
Hovelport wouldn't increase alien mobility much if only grangers can use it...
Backwards dodge is longer then avg strafejump :,( meaning mappers can't add simple strafe jump obstacles for humans.
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I like most of the changes; they may feel a bit weird, but I can see myself playing it.
There is only one change I despise: Why can't we have sprint stay "boost" and dodge be a separate command?
I have heard no good answer on this, it seems to just be ignored.
because boost ends up wasting a ton of bandwidth and doesn't allow the behavior most people expect it to have (hold button->run faster)
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- the timer for complimentary funds (governed now by g_freeKillPeriod, default 2 minutes) no longer resets on death (only on earning funds)
I haven't commented on this before as I thought it was a bug.
I don't see how it makes sense to punish earning credits. Especially since you can now earn partial evos as well.
Take the two following examples:
- Player#1 Kills someone for 1e, then after less than 2min earns 1/2e.
Total: 3/2e - Player#2 Sits and waits all the time instead.
Total: 2e
Thus it's better to in certain cases just sit and wait, just like with the old camper evos.
My suggestion would be to completely skip any "resets".
(Oh i just love pointing out those things even though I doubt it'll ever affect the gameplay in an actual game)
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(Oh i just love pointing out those things even though I doubt it'll ever affect the gameplay in an actual game)
actually it's just norf's wording. you get credits every 2 minutes regardless of whether you killed anything or not.
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It looks like lethality of aliens has been removed and these changes are painful to read. I'm thinking this has to be a massive typo or joke.
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(Oh i just love pointing out those things even though I doubt it'll ever affect the gameplay in an actual game)
actually it's just norf's wording. you get credits every 2 minutes regardless of whether you killed anything or not.
...I'd have to go ahead and disagree with that.
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(Oh i just love pointing out those things even though I doubt it'll ever affect the gameplay in an actual game)
actually it's just norf's wording. you get credits every 2 minutes regardless of whether you killed anything or not.
...I'd have to go ahead and disagree with that.
fortunately for us you disagreeing with it doesn't change how the code works.
edit: now that you've made me look at the code i should clarify that it's based on time you've spent alive, so it might be slightly more than 2 minutes if you spend time in the spawn queue.
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What's not clear to me (and sorry if it's been on the forum already): have the human weapons been changed or not? There was a YouTube vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HUeJ_f3V30) that showed new stuff.
The ones showed there seemed to suck compared to 1.1 weapons and on superficial examination, but that's just my opinion. On the other hand, for years we got to drool over new or updated models of aliens and weapons. So, any change anywhere?
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What's not clear to me (and sorry if it's been on the forum already): have the human weapons been changed or not? There was a YouTube vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HUeJ_f3V30) that showed new stuff.
The ones showed there seemed to suck compared to 1.1 weapons and on superficial examination, but that's just my opinion. On the other hand, for years we got to drool over new or updated models of aliens and weapons. So, any change anywhere?
There have been a few vids showing the new weapons, all hidden around on the net somewhere *insert spooky face here*
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-Ignore this space.-
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
Just a question, what is "repeat"? Is it the time between two attacks? I don't understand well.
Exactly right. And I updated the "answers" post to explain it.
"unpowered human structures will be removed immediately" should be "will be removed instead of marked" to make it less arbitrary.
Changed.
Building: "the HUD indicator is now 5 seconds per slice for both teams" you mean 2.5?
Ah, yea, looks like you're right. I was going off the SVN commit message.
Basi: "slash and grab range increased to compensate bounding box increase over regular basilisk (+3 to regular values)" I guess that only works if you are looking straight, but diagonally to corner of bbox increase is 5.19. Same for goons; 3.46 for maras.
Right, but, I'd say this is good enough. It'd surprise me if anyone had even noticed the deficiency.
Tyrant trample: "can longer be charged by walking into a wall" you mean "no longer"? And what is minimum height to kill RC in 1 hit? :P
Fixed, and I don't know but it's 500 damage from the three-story drop on transit.
And what is the max alien regen modifier? x3x3=x9? in base near booster and +basi?
x3, healing auras don't stack (don't think they did in 1.1 either)
Booster poison: "lasts 10 seconds" should be "damage lasts 10 seconds"
Changed to "effect lasts 10 seconds"; damage is instantaneous.
What about building eggs on walls?
Hasn't changed (couldn't and can't).
Hovelport wouldn't increase alien mobility much if only grangers can use it...
Why increase it at all?
What's not clear to me (and sorry if it's been on the forum already): have the human weapons been changed or not? ... On the other hand, for years we got to drool over new or updated models of aliens and weapons. So, any change anywhere?
In case it wasn't clear from the title of this thread, I only listed gameplay changes. I couldn't even tell you all the other changes that have been made if I wanted to. And for those that haven't even played any test games, you will see a few minor graphical enhancements in the beta but they are by no means final or comprehensive.
Does complimentary funds timer reset to max when u earn less then the amount u would get from it?
Thus it's better to in certain cases just sit and wait, just like with the old camper evos.
My suggestion would be to completely skip any "resets".
(Oh i just love pointing out those things even though I doubt it'll ever affect the gameplay in an actual game)
I'm aware of this, and if it were likely to have any affect on an actual game I'd definitely want the funds awarded every two minutes to be the normal amount minus the funds you earned in that period, if you earned less than the normal amount. I don't remember why we did it the simpler but "wrong" way, but I think it wasn't worth complicating the code to the degree necessary to implement it. Having no reset at all seems a bit silly.
EDIT: Apparently my memory is going. Turns out I was wrong in thinking that the timer reset on killing things in 1.1, which means it doesn't currently either. Kev is right. Still seems a bit silly to me, but I kind of don't want to make any more changes at this time. Sorry for the confusion.
EDIT 2: Correction again: kevlarman tells me that in 1.1 the timer in fact does reset on killing things, but it now does work the way he described: nothing resets the timer, you get free funds every X minutes.
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Not so much a gameplay change as it is a bugfix; Do spectators still violently teleport through func_doors?
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Not so much a gameplay change as it is a bugfix; Do spectators still violently teleport through func_doors?
yes
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^^
timed jetpack with fuel would win at life, also, it shouldn't be so steady
agreed on the fuel part, i dont mind the steady part.. but to make it more realistic your right
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^^
timed jetpack with fuel would win at life, also, it shouldn't be so steady
agreed on the fuel part, i dont mind the steady part.. but to make it more realistic your right
Why would it need fuel?
If someone's jettarding (he|she)'s very inflexible and easy to avoid.
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Hmm, timed jetpack.
Coincidence, I guess, but cQvm (http://cqvm.googlecode.com) has this implemented currently as well.
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Not so much a gameplay change as it is a bugfix; Do spectators still violently teleport through func_doors?
yes
I don't suppose that could be changed?
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- secondary fire
- damage increased 27 -> 30
- projectile speed increased 350 -> 1400
- repeat increased 500 -> 1000
doesn't that make it an even bigger headache when a person is sitting in base lucispamming?
was taking secondary fire off ever considered?
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- secondary fire
- damage increased 27 -> 30
- projectile speed increased 350 -> 1400
- repeat increased 500 -> 1000
doesn't that make it an even bigger headache when a person is sitting in base lucispamming?
was taking secondary fire off ever considered?
Well, they can only fire half as frequently, so I guess it was considered, just fixed in a different way.
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ohh oops, for some reason i figured that a higher repeat number would mean its faster >.>
nvm!
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What about OGG sound support? It will be in 1.2? Biggest part of maps (and tremulous data) are often wav sounds :-(
Jetpack limiting is bad. I saw it on one server and that make from jetpack useless thing. But, it would be nice if jetpack limit can be added like parameter for map makers. If they want to build outside map - there is jetpack really problem (for example map outpost p4, xmas2007, salve...).
Why was removed basilisk turret grabbing?
And what admin server system is in 1.2? Something like in lakitu qvm?
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I think jetpack issue was already discussed - Norfenstein said that he didn't want so radical changes in 1.2 (this guy got sense of humor :laugh: ) IMO jet should be much less steady, faster (but shouldn't be able to over
runfly charging rant) and with limited fly time (but with slow auto-restore everywhere). It'd make it much more useful for "normal" players than it is now (you can reach "jetpack-only" area faster), it would remove jetcamp (which is annoying, even if you try to ignore jetards) and will be really fun to use (I <3 jetpack in worms).
Why you want to keep lisk ret grabbing against new rets? Now even :granger: can eat :turret:
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And what admin server system is in 1.2? Something like in lakitu qvm?
GUID (and all of g_admin etc) has been in trunk for ever.
EDIT: Should point out that this is just balance changes, lots of other things that have already gotten into trunk that aren't on this list. (EG voip and ipv6 and a million bug fixes)
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Will you make dodge be used with a double-tap (A-A etc.) ? Would make a lot more sense.
Will there be a cvar to make sprint a toggle, or do I do it with scripts? Too used to 1.1 style...
Hovel - good, alien regen could be bigger without creep and basilisk wouldn't have to be your boring medic/forced teamplay :)
Jetpack has always been the least of your worries: easy to avoid/bring down (unless you're an exceptional jettard ;)).
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Hovel = 1.1 DC for Aliens?
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AFAIK the double tap thing isn't really doable with the way the input system works. Also I hate those systems, always accidentally jump off things when trying to dodge stuff.
You can probably emulate it using wait etc, although it may get funky with wanting normal movement to work too.
For sprint you probably have to script it. What happens if you drop the +? In hl that makes it a toggle, not sure what q3 does.
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Why was removed basilisk turret grabbing?
Basilisks are not suited for attacking bases, so it was largely pointless even in 1.1, and the changes made to turrets in 1.2 make it even less useful (it wasn't necessary for destroying lone turrets, and against multiple turrets it wouldn't save you against their longer sense range and faster turning).
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Not so much a gameplay change as it is a bugfix; Do spectators still violently teleport through func_doors?
yes
I don't suppose that could be changed?
I'm in favour of changing it but I haven't yet worked out a nice way of doing so. Allowing specs to pass through door entities risks breaking existing maps.
ref. https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2757
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I think jetpack issue was already discussed - Norfenstein said that he didn't want so radical changes in 1.2
I know, I readed it. But I only trying say this: jetpack is ok, I don't want to change it. But is really pitty that we cannot make maps with open area (towns, hills...). That is reason why I will be glad if map makers can use something like "jetpack_limit = 1" in gtk radiant and then in their maps will be jetpack for one time use. You can fly one minute and then end (for example). And when map maker will make big open map, he can choose if he want jetpack limit or no.
If you give this ability to server owners (g_jetpack_limit) then they will use it on 90% servers and jetpack will be unusable thing.
I can make this change on my server but then that map will be playable again only on my server and nobody else will make other open map, because ... it will be playable only on my server.
Why you want to keep lisk ret grabbing against new rets? Now even :granger: can eat :turret:
Because I discovered this ability about two months ago :) From source code. I like that tremulous have many small interesing things, like basi turret grab or helmet negation while crouching (maybe bug, but interesing). If you remove it (including hovel - useless, yes, but funny thing) then tremulous losing his variability.
About hovel - my opinion is if it is useless building, then make from it usable building. Instead of remove it. It is funny when granger will jump into hovel :granger: And now will be homeless :'(
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We can set playerclip boundaries. There should be a way to make clipping clipping that effects only humans or aliens, like nobuild zones can.
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Can you still evade a basilisk's grab with a jetpack?
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Hm, come to think of it, it would be really awesome to give basis a kind of slight chameleon-like, blending-in power. (or as was suggested before, texture it with atcs textures. :D)
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Your face, ever play TremX?
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that's sort of what I mean, but not completely invisible, more like a camouflage effect.
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^^
timed jetpack with fuel would win at life, also, it shouldn't be so steady
agreed on the fuel part, i dont mind the steady part.. but to make it more realistic your right
Why would it need fuel?
-limits jetard'tion
- just kinda a neat idea
although i also would like to see it be faster if its timed, its pretty slow in 1.1
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imo, it looks like the devs are nerfing aliens because they win too often, which i feel has less to do with the overall strength of the alien team, and more to do with newb players who always go human.
ofc, i'm probably wrong about that, the trem devs have taken years to carefully calculate all these changes.
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Will there be a cvar to make sprint a toggle, or do I do it with scripts? Too used to 1.1 style...
because boost ends up wasting a ton of bandwidth and doesn't allow the behavior most people expect it to have (hold button->run faster)
I vastly prefer the toggle. Is it possible to at least include a separate unbound sprint toggle for players to switch to if they prefer it?
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Will there be a cvar to make sprint a toggle, or do I do it with scripts? Too used to 1.1 style...
because boost ends up wasting a ton of bandwidth and doesn't allow the behavior most people expect it to have (hold button->run faster)
I vastly prefer the toggle. Is it possible to at least include a separate unbound sprint toggle for players to switch to if they prefer it?
set sprinton "+button8;set togglesprint vstr sprintoff"
set sprintoff "-button8;set togglesprint vstr sprinton"
vstr sprintoff
bind x "vstr togglesprint"
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I was unclear. I meant something similar to "boost" behavior. Could a /delay command be implemented? I know next to nil about q3 resources.
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With the alias stuff you could make awd all call -button8 when lifted, while still working normally.
Don't think it's doable without alias though :(
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limited jet fuel? I think not, if you limit jet packs you would need to limit aliens wall walking. In most cases an adv goon shoots down the jetpack on sight, you could increase the range of the adv goons spit ball if you want to make it harder for humans to use jetpack.
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Basilisk
both
slash range reduced 96 -> 64
grab range increased 64 -> 96
jump magnitude increased 270 -> 310
silent footsteps
grabs no longer affects turrets
why dont you devs use some common sense and make the slash and grab range equal to each other. not that it really matters, but what fucking sense does that make, i can grab a human, yet i cant swipe at them :S.
justified feel free to ask
so dont go flaming me.
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errrr...after reading all this info... how hard would it be for you guys to make a few standard command lines to change damage, range, repeat fire, reload time, jetpack *limitations*, and hp, so it can be as easy as saying "g_humabuildpoints" if you did that this topic could be easily closed and players could customize their servers easily.
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errrr...after reading all this info... how hard would it be for you guys to make a few standard command lines to change damage, range, repeat fire, reload time, jetpack *limitations*, and hp, so it can be as easy as saying "g_humabuildpoints" if you did that this topic could be easily closed and players could customize their servers easily.
In more recent qvms for 1.1 this is already possible. And I shall think it will be possible with 1.2 too. So, whats the point of your post again?
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Because people want to play tremulous, and want there to be players in the future to play with.
All this every server being different crap is stopping new people, and killing the game. I'm pushing for server to be marked on the list if they have modified gameplay, but I doubt it will happen.
So basically, stop trying to kill tremulous you arseholes.
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In more recent qvms for 1.1 this is already possible. And I shall think it will be possible with 1.2 too. So, whats the point of your post again?
i didnt know sorry :-[ , where would i find one of those qvms? (pm me with link please?)
servers with mods often have a website so players can give feed back to make the mods more enjoyable for every one.
P.S. errrr...after reading all this info... how hard would it be for you guys to make a few standard command lines to change damage, range, repeat fire, reload time, jetpack *limitations*, and hp, so it can be as easy as saying "g_humabuildpoints" if you did that this topic could be easily closed and players could customize their servers easily.
+ :grenade:
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Basilisk
both
slash range reduced 96 -> 64
grab range increased 64 -> 96
jump magnitude increased 270 -> 310
silent footsteps
grabs no longer affects turrets
why dont you devs use some common sense and make the slash and grab range equal to each other. not that it really matters, but what fucking sense does that make, i can grab a human, yet i cant swipe at them :S.
justified feel free to ask
so dont go flaming me.
That is a very interesting point StevenM. I look forward to what Norf or someone'll say.
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It's for easier use of the basilisk obviously but I think an explanation would be that the basilisk can grab with one claw and scratch with the other.
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Maybe it was just to reinforce the idea that the :basilisk: is supposed to be a support class. I don't get why, though, since I've never (in two years of playing) seen someone evolve to basi just to support other aliens. It just doesn't make sense, from a 'getting kills' perspective.
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Because people want to play tremulous, and want there to be players in the future to play with.
All this every server being different crap is stopping new people, and killing the game. I'm pushing for server to be marked on the list if they have modified gameplay, but I doubt it will happen.
So basically, stop trying to kill tremulous you arseholes.
You are very wrong. No update in several YEARS, is what is killing this game. And those few that are left to play the game, have no interest to play vanilla games on ATCS 24/7.
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limited jet fuel? I think not, if you limit jet packs you would need to limit aliens wall walking. In most cases an adv goon shoots down the jetpack on sight, you could increase the range of the adv goons spit ball if you want to make it harder for humans to use jetpack.
who u.
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limited jet fuel? I think not, if you limit jet packs you would need to limit aliens wall walking. In most cases an adv goon shoots down the jetpack on sight, you could increase the range of the adv goons spit ball if you want to make it harder for humans to use jetpack.
who u.
Ms. Swan?
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Because people want to play tremulous, and want there to be players in the future to play with.
All this every server being different crap is stopping new people, and killing the game. I'm pushing for server to be marked on the list if they have modified gameplay, but I doubt it will happen.
So basically, stop trying to kill tremulous you arseholes.
you are soo very wrong. server customization is whats keeping tremulous alive. lack of updates, showstopping bugs w/out a official bug fix release(i hope after 1.2 if it ever comes out that it'll be changed so bug fix releases come out for any big bugs), overplaying of unbalanced maps like atcs(and crappy joke maps like *cannon paint highrise), general imbalance in tremulous(some of which has been fixed in 1.2).
if you want vanilla 1.1 David i suggest putting up a real 1.1 server see how long till people come and crash it constantly it isn't hard.
im not a fan of x an its other 1 letter server series changes but they are doing better to keep players in trem then most other servers.
errrr...after reading all this info... how hard would it be for you guys to make a few standard command lines to change damage, range, repeat fire, reload time, jetpack *limitations*, and hp, so it can be as easy as saying "g_humabuildpoints" if you did that this topic could be easily closed and players could customize their servers easily.
In more recent qvms for 1.1 this is already possible. And I shall think it will be possible with 1.2 too. So, whats the point of your post again?
for jetpack fuel(my implementation cqvm is customised for more cvar setting changes - there is others around somewhere)
http://code.google.com/p/cqvm/ (http://code.google.com/p/cqvm/) - cvars for both time and enabling/disabling
http://code.google.com/p/slackers-qvm/ (http://code.google.com/p/slackers-qvm/) - cvars for enabling/disabling
cqvm also has a whole set of gameplay modifying cvars for various stuff(im pretty sure everything can be turned off)
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Because people want to play tremulous, and want there to be players in the future to play with.
All this every server being different crap is stopping new people, and killing the game. I'm pushing for server to be marked on the list if they have modified gameplay, but I doubt it will happen.
So basically, stop trying to kill tremulous you arseholes.
That's one of the dumbest things I've heard on this forums and I've heard a lot.
And if people modded 1.1, what do you think is going to happen to 1.2?
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Maybe server mods keep players alive, but certainly not newbies.
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if it hadn't been for all the mods/weird qvms, trem would have died quite a while ago. :P
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errrr...after reading all this info... how hard would it be for you guys to make a few standard command lines to change damage, range, repeat fire, reload time, jetpack *limitations*, and hp, so it can be as easy as saying "g_humabuildpoints" if you did that this topic could be easily closed and players could customize their servers easily.
Because we're making a game, not a create-your-own-game toolbox. The toolbox is the source code, which already allows server operators to customize the game.
That is a very interesting point StevenM. I look forward to what Norf or someone'll say.
If he has a question he should ask it. Politely. Perhaps with a question mark at the end.
About hovel - my opinion is if it is useless building, then make from it usable building. Instead of remove it.
Of course we would have preferred that that, but as I said, there just weren't any ideas for it that I felt were good enough, and I think the game is better off without useless elements.
The hovel is not going to change for 1.2. The jetpack is not going to change for 1.2. Let's please try to keep this thread on the topic of gameplay changes that haven't been discussed ad nauseum. That excludes what may or not be "killing trem".
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That is a very interesting point StevenM. I look forward to what Norf or someone'll say.
If he has a question he should ask it. Politely. Perhaps with a question mark at the end.
Decon'd. Don't make lame excuses to squirm your way out of answering something.
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If he has a question he should ask it. Politely. Perhaps with a question mark at the end.
:/
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If he has a question he should ask it. Politely. Perhaps with a question mark at the end.
?
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What don't you get?
why dont you devs use some common sense and make the slash and grab range equal to each other. not that it really matters, but what fucking sense does that make, i can grab a human, yet i cant swipe at them :S.
...reads quite douchey to me. If I said "Why does your_face suck ass so much" I wouldn't expect you to politely reply either. Don't be a dick, or GTFO.
(As for why this might make sense, think about a spider - it's arms can reach further than its jaws can)
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but but basis don't use jaws, they use their arms?
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Realism has never been priority; Tremulous really isn't a particularly atmospheric game, and is definitely not a simulation, so I've never thought approaching its design from that standpoint was the right way to go.
I'm not sure I remember why those basilisk changes were made, but I'm pretty sure the grab range was increased simply because I wanted it to be easier, and then the slash range was reduced, probably to put it at parity with the painsaw (which is at 64 now). So basilisks still have the advantage if they can position themselves well, but painsaws aren't quite as helpless. And 64 for the basilisk slash is much more appropriate than 96 -- that's almost what the tyrant's reach is.
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What about that ogg support, will be?
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Today's test game finally convinced me tone hives down. Swarm lifetime is now 3 seconds instead of 6, and their damage is now 80 instead of 100.
What about that ogg support, will be?
It's not really my department, but I'm told the code is there, it's just a question whether it'd be worth the hassle of distributing libvorbis with the game. I suppose it's up to Timbo; I really don't know anything more about it.
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Not to throw barbs at you, but don't you consult with the other devs before you make changes? Or are these official?
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Good: Reduced alien regen
Bad: Everything else
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Heh I have a question? When will you guys start adding the new weapon models and viewable hands for both humans and aliens?
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Heh I have a question?
THAT IS NOT A QUESTION. >:(
I however am interested in the answer to his second sentance. When do us "regulars" get to use new models?
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I'm not a regular around here, but I think it's been stated repeatedly that the new models will be out with the full release of 1.2 (and no sooner).
Edit: So of course we all hope for a soonish release of 1.2 :).
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Well I assume they will at least be available during 1.2 beta testing. Surely they won't just release final 1.2 without any user playing time review.
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I hope they don't release new models until after the beta. Then people won't be waving the new models everywhere like idiots.
Besides, they're not even done.
New Trooper's texturing = partially done - Animations? No one knows. (larmour/helmet texturing finished)
Flamethrower, Chaingun and ckit(?) = Unstarted - Nonbegun - Definished
I HIGHLY doubt that we're gonna have new alien models in 1.2 but if you look at the first-person goon legs on stannnum's site, they are quite different from the goon's legs now, not to mention that the goon bites, not clubs with its legs.
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Ummh, so no graphical enhancement/modification at all?
Menu/hud as seen in Develop servers are included? Just to make it clear :)
Btw i was hoping to see some updated model/texture :(
Edit: Btw i think that there is a bit too mutch power ups for humans and a bit too mutch aliens nerfing. But that's my opinion.
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I hope they don't release new models until after the beta. Then people won't be waving the new models everywhere like idiots.
Besides, they're not even done.
New Trooper's texturing = partially done - Animations? No one knows. (larmour/helmet texturing finished)
Flamethrower, Chaingun and ckit(?) = Unstarted - Nonbegun - Definished
As far as YOU know... The models might be done, I really hope all new models won't be revealed in some screenies before beta...
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Don't be so mean. >=[
Share! SHARE!
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Ummh, so no graphical enhancement/modification at all?
They keep 'em for 1.2.1.
P.S.: Notice how I didn't say 1.3. So it's not technically troll bait.
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Not to throw barbs at you, but don't you consult with the other devs before you make changes? Or are these official?
Strictly speaking, every change Norf makes could potentially be vetoed by Timbo before the merge into mainline SVN (mostly complete and scheduled Real Soon Now). In practice, however, he is probably the most experienced player on the dev team and his judgement is likely to be the best informed, so in the vast majority of cases it will become law.
Heh I have a question?
THAT IS NOT A QUESTION. >:(
It totally is. It has a question mark and everything :)
The weapon models will not be done in time for the beta release, and require very little testing.
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Not to throw barbs at you, but don't you consult with the other devs before you make changes? Or are these official?
Strictly speaking, every change Norf makes could potentially be vetoed by Timbo before the merge into mainline SVN (mostly complete and scheduled Real Soon Now). In practice, however, he is probably the most experienced player on the dev team and his judgement is likely to be the best informed, so in the vast majority of cases it will become law.
Thank you sir!
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I like the changes u guys made ;D
looking foward to playing 1.2
Is there a release date yet? :helmet:
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1.1 didn't get a release date until four days before actually being released. 1.2 is likely to have a similar situation.
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except we all know for a fact that 1.2 will be released on Thursday
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So we should expect a release date on Monday?
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no, friday.
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no, friday.
Which friday?
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Black Friday.
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we're dealing with powerful forces here, now they will have to ban us and delete this thread so no one will know.
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By the time 1.2 is finished, time travel will be normal, so why don't the future devs just travel back and release 1.2 early? ???
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That way they break the space-time continuum, and they can't come back their own time!
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By the time 1.2 is finished, time travel will be normal, so why don't the future devs just travel back and release 1.2 early? ???
It would essentialy mean that all the hard work they did between the date they released 1.2 (by going back in time) and the date they finished it would be worth nothing.
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I hope this new exciting bending space and time technology will be integrated into tremulous as a final solution to ping differences.
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I hope this new exciting bending space and time technology will be integrated into tremulous as a final solution to ping differences.
Quantum computing ftw!
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Havent read the whole thread, but speaking of the hovel :
The old Optimuse's hovelport idea, would make sence to make it dretch-only, and letting 1 dretch per distance*multiplier seconds. Effectively making it take as much time as it would take a single dretch to run in straight line from one end to another.
Disable building hovel on creep, and building 2 hovels closer than 500 units away from each other.
Something to consider :)
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hey idk if it was ever posted but i remember someone on AA saying flamers should have burn damage (similar to poison). boosters would heal it off of the alien. i thought the idea was kinda cool. forgot whos idea it was though :'(
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I should not have said that.
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The flame should have burn damage, totaly agree! And maybe have some more damage :)
And the rest of the gameplay changes...
Norfenstein, you rules, i agreed with the all changes ^^
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I think the barricade should lower down FOR ALIENS only not humans.You know when a tyrant needs to pass by the barricade can slightly go down and go up again to normal. :barricade:
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I think the barricade should lower down FOR ALIENS only not humans.You know when a tyrant needs to pass by the barricade can slightly go down and go up again to normal. :barricade:
It does.
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This is going to make gameplay a lot lot harder. Which may turn away new players. As I know people who start 1.1. Get owned, then quit. Which can destroy the community. In Aussie or community is rather small, a good one, but small :P
Idea: Wall Walk on entities. Maybe not other aliens (Would be cool but...) Moving platforms, Button Operated doors, and stage operated doors.
Another one by WarpViper: With Mara jumping off entities, that is aliens right? Will aliens mara or smaller have knockback?
-Bee
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Wall Walking on buildings was tried, it doesn't work.
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Wall Walking on buildings was tried, it doesn't work.
Not on buildings. Have you played UTCS? Or uncreation? The stage triggered doors can not be walked on. Which is annoying, as you can be dodging fire as a dretch, then just fall... and get owned =0
Also an idea for mapping side. func_breakable? Would make for some interesting maps. :D
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Moveable objects cant seem to be interacted with very well. Like doors. You can't wallwalk on elevators either which is annoying because you are stuck on the ground.
marauder can now walljump off entities and sloped walls
Yah bitch. I hate how in atcs it takes some real skill to walljump up the bunker in ATCS. And I want to walljump off a humans face.
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Can we please do something about the hives? :hive: Aliens can just put 3-5 hives above their door and the combined knockback denies any entrance at all to the door. If they were on the floor, they could be 'naded. So please either make them floor-only or heavily nerf the knockback.
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So we get forcefeilds for humans? ;D
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muzzle offset lowered (can now fire in vents without self-immolating)
What the hell, no. Why would you?
Also, I'm not liking all the un-additions to basi.
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If 1.2 has shitty unlagged implemented I'm definetly never playing. It just makes the game unplayable.
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Unlagged can be disabled per-client now (setu cl_unlagged 0) and have you even tried it recently?
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@mooseberry
Agree.
Unlagged can be disabled per-client now (setu cl_unlagged 0) and have you even tried it recently?
I wonder whats the point of this. Ul makes aiming a lot easier. It's not fair if I would use cg_unlagged 0 and other players will stay on 1. They'll play on unlagged hit-scan thingy (Overall: They will aim alot better) I hope this Cmd will be removed fastly because its slighty retarded.
Also: More than half of changes are very bad. Ofcourse, there're some good changes but like 80% of them are... ok. No comment.
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I know it's retarded. The developers know it's retarded. But people demanded it, and if you want to cripple yourself that's your call.
But I don't see why it should be removed, some people are too used to predicting and can't adapt, so will still use it.
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I know it's retarded. The developers know it's retarded. But people demanded it, and if you want to cripple yourself that's your call.
But I don't see why it should be removed, some people are too used to predicting and can't adapt, so will still use it.
OK, then I have no more questions. This is kinda sad because many, MANY players were training their abilities (Aim and Strafe) on standard gameplay without unlagged. (And I guess I'm one of these players :/) Unlagged is far diffrent gameplay, and how to say, easier for everyone. Good lagged player doesn't want to accept unlagged because he has actually great aim (without ul) and pretty good strafe. I don't need unlagged to win, but giving my enemy's hit-scan setting (means: two times better aim and other things) won't be very comfortable. Instead of unlagged devs could work on better netcode.
My solution is: remove cg_unlagged, leave g_unlagged as in 1.1. (Oh wait, I'm really that stupid to belive that devs will change that? ??? )
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EDIT: Either contribute to the discussion, ask a reasonable question, or start a new thread.
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Don't listen these 'fuckdatshit' noobs, whose did nothing for Tremulous. Keep working on the new version. I don't like few changes too, but I appreciate devs work. :granger:
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If 1.2 has shitty unlagged implemented I'm definetly never playing. It just makes the game unplayable.
I have a hard time believing that you don't realize unlagged is a server setting. You won't have to play on 1.2 servers that have unlagged on, and as I've said elsewhere (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.msg175523#msg175523) (in a thread you've been involved in) the beta period is when we'll devote time to adjusting the balance for non-unlagged. There really isn't anything more to say about unlagged at this time.
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More than half of changes are very bad.
80% of them are... ok.
...
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If 1.2 has shitty unlagged implemented I'm definetly never playing. It just makes the game unplayable.
I have a hard time believing that you don't realize unlagged is a server setting. You won't have to play on 1.2 servers that have unlagged on, and as I've said elsewhere (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.msg175523#msg175523) (in a thread you've been involved in) the beta period is when we'll devote time to adjusting the balance for non-unlagged. There really isn't anything more to say about unlagged at this time.
That post was mostly influenced by late night gaming frustration. :-X I hate getting hit through walls by tyrants. I just hope there will be decent, populated (and in my case US) servers with unlagged off.
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More than half of changes are very bad.
80% of them are... ok.
...
lol fail
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More than half of changes are very bad.
80% of them are... ok.
...
Out of context, you fail.
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If 1.2 has shitty unlagged implemented I'm definetly never playing. It just makes the game unplayable.
I have a hard time believing that you don't realize unlagged is a server setting. You won't have to play on 1.2 servers that have unlagged on, and as I've said elsewhere (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.msg175523#msg175523) (in a thread you've been involved in) the beta period is when we'll devote time to adjusting the balance for non-unlagged. There really isn't anything more to say about unlagged at this time.
That post was mostly influenced by late night gaming frustration. :-X I hate getting hit through walls by tyrants. I just hope there will be decent, populated (and in my case US) servers with unlagged off.
There will be a client-side feature to turn unlagged off. Just set cg_unlagged to 0. You can try it in mgdev.
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If 1.2 has shitty unlagged implemented I'm definetly never playing. It just makes the game unplayable.
I have a hard time believing that you don't realize unlagged is a server setting. You won't have to play on 1.2 servers that have unlagged on, and as I've said elsewhere (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.msg175523#msg175523) (in a thread you've been involved in) the beta period is when we'll devote time to adjusting the balance for non-unlagged. There really isn't anything more to say about unlagged at this time.
That post was mostly influenced by late night gaming frustration. :-X I hate getting hit through walls by tyrants. I just hope there will be decent, populated (and in my case US) servers with unlagged off.
There will be a client-side feature to turn unlagged off. Just set cg_unlagged to 0. You can try it in mgdev.
AFAIK, this won't stop other tyrants from hitting me through walls correct?
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No, but sort by ping will help by lowering average pings a ton.
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We've played enough Saturday games without changing the balance that I feel confident about needing to change a few more things:
- increased goon repeat 700 -> 900
- increased advanced goon repeat 600 -> 800
- increased goon (both) pounce charge time 700 -> 900
- increased tyrant repeat 750 -> 800
- decreased hive health 175 -> 125
- swapped prices of flamer and prifle
During the beta we won't make gameplay changes without enough data to conclusively justify them (trends start to emerge after about 150 games, and solidify after about 200).
Can we please do something about the hives? :hive: Aliens can just put 3-5 hives above their door and the combined knockback denies any entrance at all to the door. If they were on the floor, they could be 'naded. So please either make them floor-only or heavily nerf the knockback.
The issue isn't the knockback, it's that you're taking 50 damage per swarm. I think the only problem is that they're too hard to kill before they kill you -- but since the swarms have to run you down first, if you can run/dodge past them and do enough damage to the hives (i.e. luci blast) then it should be okay. Probably. We'll see how they do at 125 health (their old value, same as acid tubes).
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...same as acid tubes).
D:
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Yeah, keep in mind it only takes one rifle clip to kill an acid tube, so that's a little too low for me.
Maybe 150?
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i have said this over and over again, about the dodging thing, i love the idea, but i hate how you people have set it up, change the buttons around instead of hitting shift (my sprint button) and hitting a ( left stride) to dodge that way, you should make it like in unreal tournament 2000-08 hit a,s,d,w twice causing you to dodge in that direction, i think if you do this, it will improve the dodging ability by far, also you'll be able to dance around aliens still. Without relaying on back pedaling and dodging into strange directions.
thanks for reading (if you want any more ideas i could make some more up)
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Yeah, keep in mind it only takes one rifle clip to kill an acid tube, so that's a little too low for me.
Maybe 150?
Maybe, have to see. Realize that one hive isn't a big problem, it's when you have three of them plus tubes, trappers and defenders. It's not easy to empty an entire clip into something while dodging all that.
you should make it like in unreal tournament 2000-08 hit a,s,d,w twice causing you to dodge in that direction
I'm told there are technical reasons against doing it that way, but I also don't think it gives as much control over how it currently works (it'll always be a little slower to double-tap then to press one button). I can see benefits to double-tap, but I doubt we'll make any further changes to it for 1.2. I'm not opposed to it being an option though.
1.2 has some changes that have absolutely no justification. The reduction of head damage to 1.5 from 2.0 is mind boggling considering aliens don't deal any new damage. How can anyone seriously defend that?
Well I'm glad you asked! I felt humans were too vulnerable without helmets or bsuits, and didn't want them to feel required to reach stage two before being aggressive. The dretch was the biggest problem, and this kept me from dropping its damage into the twenties. The helmet's modifier and the head area of the bsuit were adjusted to make the change only really affect unarmoured humans.
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A lot of us have played Tremulous for years holding down the shift button. Now, when we hold shift and tap a, we dodge to the left, wasting valuable stamina, when we didn't want it. It's not fair to force that adaption on us. Technical issues with the binding should be overcome and there should be some options available. Or a separate dodge bind.
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A lot of us have played Tremulous for years holding down the shift button. Now, when we hold shift and tap a, we dodge to the left, wasting valuable stamina, when we didn't want it. It's not fair to force that adaption on us. Technical issues with the binding should be overcome and there should be some options available. Or a separate dodge bind.
in other words, you're complaining that we haven't implemented something that we did implement months ago.
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You will receive better feedback after the beta. For now it is just the same complaints and trolls.
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A lot of us have played Tremulous for years holding down the shift button. Now, when we hold shift and tap a, we dodge to the left, wasting valuable stamina, when we didn't want it. It's not fair to force that adaption on us. Technical issues with the binding should be overcome and there should be some options available. Or a separate dodge bind.
in other words, you're complaining that we haven't implemented something that we did implement months ago.
My apologies. What Norf said led me to believe that double tap sprinting isn't implemented. But, if memory serves, dodge and sprint have separate commands. I do believe you're referring to that part of my post. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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My apologies. What Norf said led me to believe that double tap sprinting isn't implemented. But, if memory serves, dodge and sprint have separate commands. I do believe you're referring to that part of my post. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Correct, there is no double-tapping for dodge at this time, but dodge and sprint are separate binds (that can work together when bound to the same key, if you don't mind not being able to sprint straight sideways or backwards).
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I'm fine with most of the changes, if the devs can make all classes and weapons used more equally, not just rifle/shotty/chain/luci and dretch/goon/rant, and balance wins. More game data made public would be nice tho, like when teams get stage ups, which team is more powerful at same stage, how often which weapons/classes are used. Also what about adding an option to use something like ==Troy=='s ranking system for balancing teams? It should eliminate stacking teams and that should balance the game more. And are default maps getting an update for 1.2?
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I'm fine with most of the changes, if the devs can make all classes and weapons used more equally, not just rifle/shotty/chain/luci and dretch/goon/rant, and balance wins. More game data made public would be nice tho, like when teams get stage ups, which team is more powerful at same stage, how often which weapons/classes are used. Also what about adding an option to use something like ==Troy=='s ranking system for balancing teams? It should eliminate stacking teams and that should balance the game more. And are default maps getting an update for 1.2?
autobalancing functions aren't very popular. at one point i forced everyone to autoselect their team on khalsa's server, and it resulted in something like 54%-46% in favor of aliens (compared to the 60-40 that was average at the time), but people hated it so much it didn't last long.
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Also what about adding an option to use something like ==Troy=='s ranking system for balancing teams? It should eliminate stacking teams and that should balance the game more.
I think it's more rare than not for people to not care which team they join in a given match -- and I've heard of people that only ever play aliens or humans, too. It'd be different if both sides were exactly the same.
And are default maps getting an update for 1.2?
I really really want them to (at the very least for location ents), but it's obviously going to depend on the mappers.
Your main reason for changing the whole dretch is that you can easily get tked by an ally as a human after one headbite.
Uh, no, that wasn't the reason at all, 96 damage is just too much for a free class to deal every half second.
Also, the luci. I have said this many times, and it is wayyy to overpowered. What was the reasoning behind increasing the speed? I can 9times out of 10 make my credz back, and now youve just made it crazily overpowered.
If you think it's overpowered you should show me, because my experience has been that it's just about right for its cost.
yay some other people who share my views. I agree with ozzy that youve changed things too much. With a few tweaks you could have sorted everything, but you have literally totally changed trem.
If you like 1.1 better than 1.2 then great, we made it and gave it to you for free, source included. But I don't think 1.1 was perfect, or almost perfect, and I didn't think it was when we released it either -- even before seeing the obvious balance problems. 1.2 is as much about finishing the game as it is fixing bugs and addressing the most glaring issues.
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But still, headbite+torso should equal kill. I was finding it extremely hard to get kills as a dretch even at s1. And im at loss as how you can expect a new player to do the same.
Also, about the maps, is there any chance of non-staff being able to update the maps? Because if so, i'd be happy to help (visually. not any of the location mumbo-jumbo), tremor i think, is a map that is the classic example of great gameplay, but its just far to ugly.
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More game data made public would be nice tho, like when teams get stage ups, which team is more powerful at same stage, how often which weapons/classes are used.
There is public data at http://tremulous.net/balance/
There is also raw data to be found, however I'm far too lazy to locate it, so thats up to you ;)
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i like that rants have less hp :)
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My wall of text goes off topic, so I've moved it ;)
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12076.0
If folks would like to continue with specific suggestions/recommendations/complaints, this would be the place to do so. :police:
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I have 2 comments(Which I've been meaning to make for a while)
1) I'm curious as to why the luci speed has been increased? It seems a bit overpowered now IMHO.
2) Basi Health reduction: Why? Basi as is is a tough enough class to use(Mind you I haven't played as it alot on the dev serv yet) and dropping the max health seems to be a bit odd....
just my $0.02
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I have 2 comments(Which I've been meaning to make for a while)
1) I'm curious as to why the luci speed has been increased? It seems a bit overpowered now IMHO.
2) Basi Health reduction: Why? Basi as is is a tough enough class to use(Mind you I haven't played as it alot on the dev serv yet) and dropping the max health seems to be a bit odd....
just my $0.02
1) it's a bit rediculous when you can just walk out of the way of the most expensive (and supposedly most powerful) human weapon. (only grangers were slower than it in 1.1)
2) when basi got the regen aura it ended up being really strong (to the point where people started largly ignoring dragoons for a while). it's still much stronger than it was in 1.1, especially with the gas.
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My wall of text goes off topic, so I've moved it ;)
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12076.0
I've went through this topic and split out the 1.1-vs-1.2 debate posts as best I could into the new topic (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12076.0). I won't delete posts from there at will, so feel free to express your frustrations in it. This topic I want to keep to explanations of 1.2 changes.
Thank you for cooperating.
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I have 2 comments(Which I've been meaning to make for a while)
1) I'm curious as to why the luci speed has been increased? It seems a bit overpowered now IMHO.
2) Basi Health reduction: Why? Basi as is is a tough enough class to use(Mind you I haven't played as it alot on the dev serv yet) and dropping the max health seems to be a bit odd....
just my $0.02
1) it's a bit rediculous when you can just walk out of the way of the most expensive (and supposedly most powerful) human weapon. (only grangers were slower than it in 1.1)
2) when basi got the regen aura it ended up being really strong (to the point where people started largly ignoring dragoons for a while). it's still much stronger than it was in 1.1, especially with the gas.
Pretty much that.
The luci change takes some getting used to, but I think it's still quite dodgeable (need to predict your opponent a little more now though). Basically I wanted it to be useful at a little longer range, and also felt its old speed was a bit silly (you could actually outrun it).
The health reduction was actually a request to me from other people, and I was skeptical at first, but basilisks are a lot better than in 1.1 and it's turned out to be a good change. I'm not totally convinced that making the advanced killable with two mass driver shots (MD does 40 now) was the right thing to do, but it's been good so far.
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it's a bit rediculous when you can just walk out of the way of the most expensive (and supposedly most powerful) human weapon. (only grangers were slower than it in 1.1)
You can walk away from a grenade, should that explode faster too? You can dodge a painsaw, should that have a longer range? it does.
The luci, like the grenade and the painsaw, aren't anti-personnel weapons. They are for destroying bases. Who cares how slow it is? Bases don't move.
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The luci, like the grenade and the painsaw, aren't anti-personnel weapons.
Can a grenade, or a painsaw kill a tyrant/goon with as much ease a luci can?
Edit: Also I didn't see anything wrong with the luci in 1.1 so I don't see the need to modify it.
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The funny thing is that a painsaw can kill a goon or a rant as easy or easier than a luci, so I guess the saw should cost 500 credits.
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The funny thing is that a painsaw can kill a goon or a rant as easy or easier than a luci.
I really can't see how a painsaw can a kill a goon or tyrant easier than a luci can. I'm fairly confident that you would rather have a lucifer cannon than a painsaw during a pub game when as3.
Also the problems in 1.1 have already been stated
The major problems of 1.1 that everyone can agree on were
Tyrants
Camping from both teams
Spamming from humans
, but I have not seem them addressed in any way. I personally think most of the changes are unnecessary, and irrelevant to the problems that we have all agreed upon.
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The luci['s] ... old speed was a bit silly (you could actually outrun it).
Oh walk with it, which is what everyone does, and it's aweeeesome.
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The luci, like the grenade and the painsaw, aren't anti-personnel weapons. They are for destroying bases. Who cares how slow it is? Bases don't move.
It might be the best weapon for attacking bases, but it's definitely not exclusively meant for that. And even if it were, you have to get to the base first. Blowing 100 credits on a suicide painsaw run is okay, but it's less okay for a 600 credit lucifer cannon.
I personally think most of the changes are unnecessary, and irrelevant to the problems that we have all agreed upon.
Please post opinions/commentary in this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12076.0) thread instead. Thank you.
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The problem is that you factor in more than one luci and aliens have a couple of very big and very deadly problems. The slow speed was the only thing that made luci's balanced.
Look at from the other end, imagine rants with pounce.
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Look at from the other end, imagine rants with pounce.
Gah!!
Although, yeah, you both make valid .points
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The problem is that you factor in more than one luci and aliens have a couple of very big and very deadly problems. The slow speed was the only thing that made luci's balanced.
Look at from the other end, imagine rants with pounce.
Don't forget the longer charge-up time now.. in the 1.2 games I've played (granted, most were from a much earlier version about a year ago but they still had the fast luci), I'd work on dodging one luci-blast and then.. just walk at the human and kill. Because of the long-charge up I know they can't get enough time to kill me so I'll eat the damage and get a kill. Recommend everyone who's having trouble with them try that^ (works in 1.1 too, to a lesser extent)
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The problem is that you factor in more than one luci and aliens have a couple of very big and very deadly problems. The slow speed was the only thing that made luci's balanced.
Look at from the other end, imagine rants with pounce.
Don't forget the longer charge-up time now.. in the 1.2 games I've played (granted, most were from a much earlier version about a year ago but they still had the fast luci), I'd work on dodging one luci-blast and then.. just walk at the human and kill. Because of the long-charge up I know they can't get enough time to kill me so I'll eat the damage and get a kill. Recommend everyone who's having trouble with them try that^ (works in 1.1 too, to a lesser extent)
finally someone with some common sense :P
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marked deconstruction
Summary - Those poles keep deconning our bases, so what we'll do is make it awkward. Therefore deconners and builders alike won't have the dedication to do anything. Problem solved, right?
Marked deconstruction solves nothing. All it does is make it *easier* for deconners to ruin the game for a longer period of time than normal, since now you have to rebuild the building(reactor for example) in any obscure hard to find location of choice, making it even harder for the real builder to quickly get the rc back up.
What we're left with is the admins having to be on call constantly. What changed exactly?
g_markedDeconstruct
1 - can't build over marked structures
Here's a useful feature. Basically, if you place a structure wrong in the first place, you have to replace it in another incorrect location before you can get it quite where you want. Absolutely useless.
# build point queuing
All this does is make gameplay entirely linear. Base rush->Game over. Why bother? All this does is makes sure that the losing side can't make a come back. This is the perfect example of what you're doing to remove the 'fun' factor from the game.
Granger
* regular
o movement speed increased 0.8 -> 0.9
o FOV increased to advanced's value 80 -> 110
o has slash attack
* advanced
o movement speed reduced 1.0 -> 0.9
o bounding box reduced to regular granger size 50x50x50 -> 40x40x40
o model scale reduced to regular granger size 1.25 -> 1.0
o takes falling damage
People keep battle grangering, so let's make the normal granger faster and give it slash. What does this improve? The only change I see is the abillity to battle granger earlier.
Advanced granger now takes falling damage, yet it's a wallwalking alien. This makes absolutely no sense.
Basilisk
* both
o slash range reduced 96 -> 64
o grab range increased 64 -> 96
o jump magnitude increased 270 -> 310
o silent footsteps
o grabs no longer affects turrets
Lets reduce the slash range yet increase the grab range. Now you can grab a target that's too far away for you to hit anyway. Logic?
Small feature that few people knew how to take advantage of: Slowing down turrets with basi grab. Caused absolutely no negative effect on the game, there was absolutely no need to remove it. How can you possible justify removing such an innocent feature?
Marauder
The marauder can be extremely powerful in the hands of an experienced player. Yet for some reason you decided to make the jump 'momentum' less, yet increase the attack width turning it into another clumsy fighter.
new zap - on a hit, chains to up to 4 targets within range of the first, instantly dealing 60 non-locational damage to all targets
60 damage to all 4 targets???
It takes just under a second for the turrets to even spin up after aquiring the marauder. By doing this, you make a marauder rush far more efficient and devestating than a tyrant rush, yet being a class available far earlier in the game. Now what we'll end up with is human campers feeding on the front lines hoping that they get zapped instead of the bases turrets/buildings. What did we solve here again?
Dragoon
you create an overpowered class by allowing the Advanced Dragoon to be available at Stage 2. Instead of solving this issue by reverting the change as such a powerful class has absolutely no need to be available this early in the game, you actually nerf both the normal dragoon and the advanced dragoon. What effect does this have? Stage 3 no longer provides 2 new classes to play with, but 1, making it less diverse and ofcourse, less enjoyable.
Tyrant
The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?
Alien Buildings
Aliens now get 150bp by default. Uh, so alien builders get to have more fun than human builders?
The hovel was removed. Why? "It served no purpose" How do you fix this issue? The 1.2 way of course. You remove yet another element from the game. Instead of making it have an intended use, such as the now popular 'hovelport', you decide to remove it from the game entirely.
Acid tubes: Damage was increased from 6 to 8, yet the repeat time before it can deal the next 'dose' of damage increased from 200 to 300 milliseconds. Resulting in the acid tube now dealing 4 damage per second less that it did originally. What this comes down to is:
"We weakened acid tubes, but then they were weaker, so we let you spam more so they aren't weaker"
No more credits/evo's for destroying buildables. - Uh?? You ramble on about camping in the game, and then remove one of the secondary incentives to attack the opposition's base. Grade A Genius.
Construction Kit
* repairing is done automatically when possible, without needing to press a button
Goes in hand with
Defense Computer:
repairs structures in its range 3 health per second, with a 2 second delay after taking damage (this effect stacks with multiple DCs)
So uh, why do we need builders again? Yet another element removed from the game. Builders have one thing less to 'do' (as simple as clicking the mouse) While we're at it, why don't you setup a default autofire?
# Painsaw
* damage reduced 15 -> 11
* range increased 40 -> 64
* height of 8 (width is still 0)
Here's a favourite. Painsaws tend to be used as an offensive weapon. Great for quickly destroying alien buildings. So let's be smart here. Let's reduce the amount of damage it does, but increase the range, just incase those pesky eggs grow legs and run away!
Shotgun
* pellet count increased 8 -> 14
* damage reduced 7 -> 4
What actually changed?
Mass Driver
* damage increased 38 -> 40
Read above.
Flamethrower
muzzle offset lowered (can now fire in vents without self-immolating)
What purpose, apart from allowing campers to sit in vents frying dretches, does this provide?
Tesla
* range reduced 250 -> 150
* damage increased 9 -> 10
Finally! Teslas get a damage buff. Unfortunately, the range is heavily nerfed and they'll be dead in half the time they were previously.
* fires from the top of its bounding box to the top of its target's bounding box (can now fire over turrets)
What use is this now? The range is so low that they'll barely be able to reach past the turret anyway.
I find it very difficult to appreciate the few beneficial things that this newer 'update' provides in sight of the mutilated gameplay, I can only point towards a very accurate quote said earlier in IRC.
For every mistake or issue that 1.1 has, there's a logical fix, and then the retarded 1.2 fix - Cameron Fraser
I don't know why you'd think any of these changes are logical, but you obviously ain't no vulcan.
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Shotgun
* pellet count increased 8 -> 14
* damage reduced 7 -> 4
What actually changed?
I think that gives bigger chance of hitting smaller targets from a greater distances.
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Shotgun
* pellet count increased 8 -> 14
* damage reduced 7 -> 4
What actually changed?
I think that gives bigger chance of hitting smaller targets from a greater distances.
it's probably a little worse at larger distances actually. it makes shotgun blasts on dretches a lot more consistent (especially when they were smaller and still did 96 damage, this was a huge deal)
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Never really got around to posting in the past, but w/e. Don't actually expect to see any of this happen either, yet I was getting tired of the complaints and no outright suggestions besides "don't change anything yadayada".
------------------Aliens
Give dretches 48 damage again; with the reduced headshot multiplier they'll still get a healthy 72 damage headshot and get two hit kills on unarmoured humans.
Basilisks are cool, except too easy to kill with an massdriver. Maybe up advanced's health to 85?
Adv. maras need their zap repeat increased by 150ms or so.
Drop barb damage by a quarter, leave the splash as it is.
Increase tyrant trample repeat to 200ms. Squash is hilarious and should be kept as is, even if it is a tad bit overpowered.
------------------Building.
BP queuing sucks ass.
Restore monetary value to OM/RC.
Implement hovel transfer: limit to two hovels, explode upon loss of creep and/or sentience, set a range limit from overmind (3500? e.g. four times creep size). At least keep the damn things.
Hives bug me but they're workable.
Increase boost time to 25000ms.
Reduce turret damage to six. Reduce turret delay to 650ms. Allow basilisks to grab.
Increase tesla range to 200.
------------------Humans.
Keep a "hidden" bind cvar similar to "boost".
Reduce dodge distance to 2.1x.
Battlesuits should be proof against gas.
Lucifer cannon is bunk. Speed increase helps with jettards/campers, repeat increase makes it harder to solo. Not to mention one cannot cancel a shot any more, as well as reduced ammo (better not miss).
------------------Various thoughts. Most of these comment about changes for clans.
Unpowered objects exploding puts an emphasis on initial base placement from mappers. More difficult to move across the map.
Stage 2 adv. goons will adversely affect camping in clan matches.
The new lucis will probably be usable with practice, but there will be more emphasis on escorting from the rest of the team.
Basilisks are the new distraction class.
Granger changes wtf?
Aliens in 1.1 got the short end of the stick with stage 2. The adv. goon fixes that here, but might be overpowered considering that aliens usually get stage 2 first i.e. adv. goons v. stage 1 humans. This might not hold true depending on whether the current 1.2 dretch works out and initial camping for credits/evos.
Potential difficulties in counting stages.
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As with all things, who knows whether anything I suggest is feasible. In any case, if I have not addressed it here, I either like it, agree with it, or forgot about it and will be back to bitch about it later. But for those changes I haven't mentioned, good job.
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--good shit--
If devs listen to anyone in this thread, listen to Kriegsgott.
He's one of the smartest people in this community, if not the smartest.
As for those of you who are commenting on how people didn't express themselves until now, here's how it basically went down if you don't remember: Players: Is MGDev the official development?
Devs: Nope, MGDev is not the official developmental branch of Tremulous.
Players: Okay.
Devs: Lol just kidding yeah they're the real changes.
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As for those of you who are commenting on how people didn't express themselves until now, here's how it basically went down if you don't remember: Players: Is MGDev the official development?
Devs: Nope, MGDev is not the official developmental branch of Tremulous.
Players: Okay.
Devs: Lol just kidding yeah they're the real changes.
Don't have time to dig through IRC logs right now, but I'm pretty sure it was more like this:
Players: Is MGDev the official development?
Devs: MGDev isn't official Tremulous, Norfenstein is testing balance changes and MG's able to help him turn those changes around faster to get tangible results.
The difference is slight, but since most of the things that people object to are balance changes the point still stands; it's been known for some time that Norf was "using" the MGDev crew to help test out his ideas and see what worked and what didn't, plus he and Timbo collecting data on games to get a clearer picture of how the changes were affecting the gameplay.
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Keep a "hidden" bind cvar similar to "boost".
+button8 is old sprinting, +button6 is new dodging.
I got much happier once I discovered this. =D
@Everything else, I like the changes alright. It is a game play changing update, but I want to give it a chance and see how the balance works out during beta.
However, I'll still probably play a 1.1 balance mod 1/4 the time once 1.2 comes out.
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marked deconstruction
Marked deconstruction has nothing to do with griefing and was never meant to. I'm sorry you thought otherwise. Admins have to be on call constantly in any case.
g_markedDeconstruct
1 - can't build over marked structures
Here's a useful feature. Basically, if you place a structure wrong in the first place, you have to replace it in another incorrect location before you can get it quite where you want. Absolutely useless.
Agreed. Timbo included it when he first implemented marked deconstruction (a long time ago) and we never found a use for it. It should probably be removed.
# build point queuing
All this does is make gameplay entirely linear. Base rush->Game over. Why bother? All this does is makes sure that the losing side can't make a come back. This is the perfect example of what you're doing to remove the 'fun' factor from the game.
When you can end a game in one base rush build point queuing never gets involved. The problem it solves is attackers spending funds in multiple attack waves but not making any progress because the other team can simply rebuild before the next wave arrives. I don't see how that's more fun.
People keep battle grangering, so let's make the normal granger faster and give it slash. What does this improve? The only change I see is the abillity to battle granger earlier.
Advanced granger now takes falling damage, yet it's a wallwalking alien. This makes absolutely no sense.
Every other class had at least some kind of attack; I felt the granger should too, especially since it spreads out some of the improvements the granger gets at stage 2. Advanced has falling damage to make it consistent with the regular granger. The other classes that don't have wallwalking don't take falling damage, so I don't know why you think that should be relevant.
Lets reduce the slash range yet increase the grab range. Now you can grab a target that's too far away for you to hit anyway. Logic?
There's nothing illogical about this. It's easier to grab than to slash, and once you've grabbed a human you can move 32 units closer to slash them, perhaps after revolving around them to hit from behind.
Small feature that few people knew how to take advantage of: Slowing down turrets with basi grab. Caused absolutely no negative effect on the game, there was absolutely no need to remove it. How can you possible justify removing such an innocent feature?
Because leaving around detritus from past versions is a good way to make the game harder for new players to learn. And like I already said, the turret and other basilisk changes make turret-grabbing almost completely useless.
marauder can be extremely powerful in the hands of an experienced player. Yet for some reason you decided to make the jump 'momentum' less, yet increase the attack width turning it into another clumsy fighter.
The jump magnitude was reduced, which is an improvement for the marauder.
60 damage to all 4 targets???
It takes just under a second for the turrets to even spin up after aquiring the marauder. By doing this, you make a marauder rush far more efficient and devestating than a tyrant rush, yet being a class available far earlier in the game. Now what we'll end up with is human campers feeding on the front lines hoping that they get zapped instead of the bases turrets/buildings. What did we solve here again?
We solved aliens not having enough effective ways to attack human bases. Actually playing the game has (so far) shown it to not be overpowered. It takes people by surprise though, if they're not used to it, or build poor bases.
The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?
It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".
Aliens now get 150bp by default. Uh, so alien builders get to have more fun than human builders?
Humans have zone build points, which, personally, I've found makes human building more fun than alien building. I guessed at how much aliens should get to offset it, but 150 seems to be just fine.
Acid tubes: Damage was increased from 6 to 8, yet the repeat time before it can deal the next 'dose' of damage increased from 200 to 300 milliseconds. Resulting in the acid tube now dealing 4 damage per second less that it did originally. What this comes down to is:
"We weakened acid tubes, but then they were weaker, so we let you spam more so they aren't weaker"
Actually, the damage was changed because the same value was being used for its attack and for the damage dealt when it dies (most structures do 50; it did 6). Then the repeat was changed to weaken them, yes.
Flamethrower
muzzle offset lowered (can now fire in vents without self-immolating)
What purpose, apart from allowing campers to sit in vents frying dretches, does this provide?
I'm really surprised this is at all controversial. It's still very easy to damage yourself in vents, just no longer impossible not to. It was a bug that was fixed. And you don't need a flamethrower to reliably kill dretches in a vent.
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norf just owned with those replies :D
Acid tubes: Damage was increased from 6 to 8, yet the repeat time before it can deal the next 'dose' of damage increased from 200 to 300 milliseconds. Resulting in the acid tube now dealing 4 damage per second less that it did originally. What this comes down to is:
"We weakened acid tubes, but then they were weaker, so we let you spam more so they aren't weaker"
And about that, the damage is higher yes and the attack speed was reduced; though what that means is the acid tube does larger damage, but at slower intervals.
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# build point queuing
All this does is make gameplay entirely linear. Base rush->Game over. Why bother? All this does is makes sure that the losing side can't make a come back. This is the perfect example of what you're doing to remove the 'fun' factor from the game.
When you can end a game in one base rush build point queuing never gets involved. The problem it solves is attackers spending funds in multiple attack waves but not making any progress because the other team can simply rebuild before the next wave arrives. I don't see how that's more fun.
Regenerative build points have been in use on the Nuts server for awhile now; I think they are a pretty good idea. You can rush a base, respawn and evolve and instead of returning to a fully rebuilt base you can continue attacking a weakened base. This makes it so much easier to attack those players that seem to enjoy camping.
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Also, i still lobby for my method of mark decon.
If it is set to a base value, it is the ONLY form of decon you can use.
However, if set to a different value, lets say 2, you can decon like normal, but use the /mark command to mark structures at will. Useful for power users, but as mark is built into clients for 1.2, less of an issue.
Finally, there is the converse. Value 3 could make it so marked decon was the default method, but one could use a /unbuild or something to instantly remove certain structures. Last telenode/reactor, obviously, have their own protections
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Wait, you can still force a normal decon? Good, cuz mark had it's disadvantages.(makes it much harder to rearrange base, etc....)
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The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?
It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".
Not to mention that charge, although slower, still kills pretty effectively, and tyrants can squish humans by falling on them.
I think the tyrants have more of a niche now, requiring skill and ingenuity to use.
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The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?
It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".
Not to mention that charge, although slower, still kills pretty effectively, and tyrants can squish humans by falling on them.
I think the tyrants have more of a niche now, requiring skill and ingenuity to use.
Rants are no longer going to be the amazing S3 alien killing machine class. They're just another alien now. They're all to general.
Norf, Thorn said that rants were LESS clumsy.
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Why should the tyrant have to be this "amazing S3 alien killing machine"? It's still useful and it still has skills that differentiate it from the other aliens, you just have to use it in a more tactical manner now.
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The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?
It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".
Not to mention that charge, although slower, still kills pretty effectively, and tyrants can squish humans by falling on them.
I think the tyrants have more of a niche now, requiring skill and ingenuity to use.
Rants are no longer going to be the amazing S3 alien killing machine class. They're just another alien now. They're all to general.
Norf, Thorn said that rants were LESS clumsy.
If you use the new rant right it can still be an amazing killing machine.
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That's the funny thing around rants. They aren't that different. I think rants are more fearsome now, at the last time I played Dev server. The only thing different or nerfed has nothing to do with rants. Aliens have slower regen so rants, like all aliens, are handicapped.
But in raw damage, rants do more damage now than in 1.1. Trample is ridiculous.
But the funny thing about rants in 1.1 or 1.2 is that rants are no more dangerous than a goon. Rants just have more hitpoints. Why would the Stage 3 class be easier to play than the Stage 1 class? Same for the luci.
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Why would the Stage 3 class be easier to play than the Stage 1 class? Same for the luci.
Wow man I have never even thought about that, but it's an interesting concept.
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Why would the Stage 3 class be easier to play than the Stage 1 class? Same for the luci.
Wow man I have never even thought about that, but it's an interesting concept.
wait, what? did you even read that post?
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Ahh i guess i suggest stuff to Norfenstein here.
As i tested on the SVN server, the 1.2 luci has nurfed the ability to luci jump. This got me thinking; Since from how i see it, most people don't use the luci secondary, they usually just stick to charging it unless they purposely feel like pointless spamming. My thought was that making the secondary for luci into a knock back luci so to speak. ie it doing little to no damage, but has a larger knock back. It will enhance the ability to luci jump greatly and be able to push back aliens (maybe even enough to push the rant back and reset its charge?). It should have a longer charge time so its not abuse able, will take more skill to time it right in-game, and if used correctly allowing luci's without a jet pack to climb to high parts of the map.
I feel that this will be a better secondary than the current and will put a spin on the game play with luci. It will be a great benefit to the team if used correctly (knocking aliens off of teammates/shooting someone past a trapper/launching someone and urself to certain spots in the map). It in general would be a fun secondary and will add a eagerness to use teamwork because of it's possibilities.
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Ahh i guess i suggest stuff to Norfenstein here.
As i tested on the SVN server, the 1.2 luci has nurfed the ability to luci jump. This got me thinking; Since from how i see it, most people don't use the luci secondary, they usually just stick to charging it unless they purposely feel like pointless spamming. My thought was that making the secondary for luci into a knock back luci so to speak. ie it doing little to no damage, but has a larger knock back. It will enhance the ability to luci jump greatly and be able to push back aliens (maybe even enough to push the rant back and reset its charge?). It should have a longer charge time so its not abuse able, will take more skill to time it right in-game, and if used correctly allowing luci's without a jet pack to climb to high parts of the map.
I feel that this will be a better secondary than the current and will put a spin on the game play with luci. It will be a great benefit to the team if used correctly (knocking aliens off of teammates/shooting someone past a trapper/launching someone and urself to certain spots in the map). It in general would be a fun secondary and will add a eagerness to use teamwork because of it's possibilities.
lcannon damage is unchanged, you should be able to luci jump just fine (you have to relearn the timing though, since you get 250 damage at ~2.4 seconds and not ~1.9)
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meh, still, i think my idea of a knockback bolt would be a good addition, would make the luci a lot of fun, and would put a spin on game play.
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meh, still, i think my idea of a knockback bolt would be a good addition, would make the luci a lot of fun, and would put a spin on game play.
Actually, I think it's a good idea too, but right now is probably the worst possible time to be making this kind of suggestion. As I said at the top of this thread:
At this point it's highly unlikely that anything else major (e.g. something getting added or removed) is going to change, but the beta period will most likely lead to some minor adjustments.
And I wouldn't qualify completely changing the behavior of a weapon as a minor adjustment.
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If you want 1.2 to be the best it can be by release, I suggest you listen to the community's suggestions. No matter how much longer it takes, it will be worth it, don't mod yourself into a box.
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Face has a good point.
And I kinda like that idea too...Could prove to be as annoying for aliens as basi is for humans....
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Aw camman! We are so close to a major release! :(
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If you want 1.2 to be the best it can be by release, I suggest you listen to the community's suggestions. No matter how much longer it takes, it will be worth it, don't mod yourself into a box.
yeah im sure we can all wait another 1-2 years
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yeah im sure we can all wait another 1-2 years
Ahem.
The years between 1.1 and 1.2 should have been productive years filled with community feedback. We wouldn't have this problem today if that is how it went.
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meh, still, i think my idea of a knockback bolt would be a good addition, would make the luci a lot of fun, and would put a spin on game play.
Actually, I think it's a good idea too, but right now is probably the worst possible time to be making this kind of suggestion. As I said at the top of this thread:
At this point it's highly unlikely that anything else major (e.g. something getting added or removed) is going to change, but the beta period will most likely lead to some minor adjustments.
And I wouldn't qualify completely changing the behavior of a weapon as a minor adjustment.
Well honestly i really didnt feel like there was much development on 1.2 ( i wasn't a trem.net forum whore either so that might be a contributer) and i stopped hearing about it in the past few years but now, actually hearing about it / being able to play on the SVN server and play with the changes it sparks ideas. Its a shame that its too late :(.
Also, i am not a coder or anything and i wouldn't know how much work this actually would be, but as i see it, don't you already have the animation / coding for the bolt? For the current secondary its less damage already so there has to be a value for that and a certain amount of knockback. Wouldn't it just be a matter of changing those 2 values/charge time and maybe color? In that sense i don't see where the problem is.
If you are worried about the game play than my response is this: i doubt it will change the gameplay as much as it might sound and long as its a reasonable mount of knock back. You could also make the bolt really slow so aliens would have more reaction time. You can tweak it how ever you wish but personally i don't see the problem in adding it. Just my 2 cents.
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Use this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12076.0) thread for feedback (or, you know, the feedback forum (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=3.0)). This thread is for asking about changes you want explained.
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One question:
Why were credits for destroying structures removed? That was probably the biggest change I was looking forward to. I really focus on winning the game, so I attack the bases a lot. But I end up wasting credits because I'm not killwhoring enough. Any reason?
I think remember you saying that aliens could feed because they have to build outside of the base now to have reliable regeneration. But that just seems small compared to the challenge of maintaining a siege without focusing on farming players.
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One question:
Why were credits for destroying structures removed? That was probably the biggest change I was looking forward to. I really focus on winning the game, so I attack the bases a lot. But I end up wasting credits because I'm not killwhoring enough. Any reason?
I think remember you saying that aliens could feed because they have to build outside of the base now to have reliable regeneration. But that just seems small compared to the challenge of maintaining a siege without focusing on farming players.
Page 1 (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.msg176443#msg176443) :)
It had nothing to do with alien regeneration. When we playtested having all structures reward funds we found it had almost no impact on encouraging people to attack more, and I felt it was much more important to give builders the freedom to build forward without feeding the enemy team. And it's turned out that having forward bases encourages offense a lot more anyway.
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Norfestein, you need to put credits for destroying Eggs and Telenodes at least
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What is this freedom to build stuff? I think that is a dumb excuse.
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Agreed, Nodes/Eggs + OM/RC should give creds/evos, otherwise there's a lot less incentive to attack the enemy's base.
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This is feedback. This is what you say people don't give.
Players should have every reason to attack the enemy. Anything that rewards the player for doing what they should (attacking the enemy/winning the game) should be rewarded. The problem is that players, particularly humans, delay the game. The major problem I have with 1.1 is that games don't close.
Aliens tend to attack more because their base is weak. They can't camp effectively. Humans are the usual suspects of delaying games because it is more effective for them to ride turrets and spam. So, I tend to advocate for the alien team more simply because the alien team does the right thing, which is attack.
If aliens have to build forward with eggs or humans build forward more with repeaters....good. That is the kind of behavior you want. If people advance on the map and kill stuff, good. Why wouldn't you give them credits for it? Why wouldn't you reward them and enable to them to keep attacking? The 'freedom to build forward' sounds more like 'they are afraid to build forward'. And there is always a risk vs reward when it comes to advancing. But if you don't give a reward for moving forward, why should be people do it?
Building forward helps people move forward and when they move forward, it helps them kill bases. So, if you give credits for killing structures, you reward them for killing bases (the end goal). However, forward structures might get killed in the process, thus rewarding the enemy team for doing what...moving forward. So, either way, moving forward and hopefully ending the game is more rewarding than camping. But the players have to risk something (moving forward). You can't have fun and risk nothing. You can't win and risk nothing.
By not giving evos/credits for destroying structures, you are creating a disincentive for the exact behavior you are trying to encourage.
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it had almost no impact on encouraging people to attack more
QQ here, what changes have been made to encourage people to attack more? and is encouraging people enough?
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By not giving evos/credits for destroying structures, you are creating a disincentive for the exact behavior you are trying to encourage.
The issue is if the incentive for killing structures is high enough, then people won't build forward bases for fear of feeding the enemy. However if the incentive for killing bases is too low, people will prefer to killwhore and leave the base alone. It's a balance, which can only be discovered from playing a lot of games and gathering data on what things work and what things need work. I'm too far from a game designer to know what the answer is, only that I liked going after a couple nodes as a basi and getting enough to evolve to a goon and finish off the base before people come back to reload :>
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By not giving evos/credits for destroying structures, you are creating a disincentive for the exact behavior you are trying to encourage.
The issue is if the incentive for killing structures is high enough, then people won't build forward bases for fear of feeding the enemy. However if the incentive for killing bases is too low, people will prefer to killwhore and leave the base alone. It's a balance, which can only be discovered from playing a lot of games and gathering data on what things work and what things need work. I'm too far from a game designer to know what the answer is, only that I liked going after a couple nodes as a basi and getting enough to evolve to a goon and finish off the base before people come back to reload :>
They are just going to sit in the base when you go back to finish it off. 8-10 Chainsuits sitting in the base. The same problem as before.
The challenge is all on the attacker and none on the defender. That's why attackers should have ways to get evos/credits outside of just killing players. Otherwise, you have exactly what you have now. Without changing something, its just reshuffling the cards.
You don't have to be a game designer to know this. All you have to do is play 1.1 long enough.
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IMO it should only give funds for buildings in-range of the OM/RC.
So you get rewarded for attacking, but forward bases aren't feeding.
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... I liked going after a couple nodes as a basi and getting enough to evolve to a goon and finish off the base before people come back to reload :>
Me too :'(
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IMO it should only give funds for buildings in-range of the OM/RC.
So you get rewarded for attacking, but forward bases aren't feeding.
This sounds like a smart solution, though it might get cirumvented by maps like Nexus6 where humans can build downstairs below the actual base and it is still powered by the reactor at the default base. So, it is actually spaced apart and remote but still powered as if it where a few feet away.
Else: good idea.
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IMO it should only give funds for buildings in-range of the OM/RC.
So you get rewarded for attacking, but forward bases aren't feeding.
This sounds like a smart solution, though it might get cirumvented by maps like Nexus6 where humans can build downstairs below the actual base and it is still powered by the reactor at the default base. So, it is actually spaced apart and remote but still powered as if it where a few feet away.
Else: good idea.
That could be fixed by having power or creep spread for the same distance, but form a sphere, rather than an infinitely tall cylinder, around the home building.
Unless, of course, those turrets are really just a few feet (vertically) from the reactor, which they very well may be. I've never examined the geometry of the map.
p.s. I love that base.
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That could be fixed by having power or creep spread for the same distance, but form a sphere, rather than an infinitely tall cylinder, around the home building.
It is a sphere already, 1000gu radius iirc. BUT try building reactor in Niveus plant room behind 1st set of barrels (or on left side of middle path if u dare take the risk) and you can build in more then half the map, including: 1 room in 4 doors, top and bottom of large stairs, top floor from near stairs to right above OM, behind OM, human default base back entrance, path from there to near 4 doors, the corner of the wide path from human base front entrance, the corner between glass window and ledge, both rooms behind doors from stairs. That only leaves window room for aliens.
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In my opinion, given that killing telenodes comes in handy for, you know, winning the game, it's not that often that you really need more encouragement to kill one.
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You don't have to be a game designer to know this. All you have to do is play 1.1 long enough.
Ahh, but better would be to play 1.2(beta) long enough, and see if the problem persists. Changes to balance other than credits for structures have also happened, which can affect the kind of situation you describe.
I agree that if everything else was the same, and credits just removed for structures, that wouldn't be a change for the better. But that's not the only change.
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What does "projectile volume 5 (against entities but not map architecture)" mean in the weapon descriptions?
Also, I'm really looking forward to the Flamethrower changes, I didn't like how very easy it was to roast yourself.
Edit: Oh, the builder changes for humans sound pretty fun too.
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What does "projectile volume 5 (against entities but not map architecture)" mean in the weapon descriptions?
It means, basically, that the projectile has a volume of 1 unit cubed with respect to walls and floors, but of 5 units cubed with respect to players and structures. So you can shoot through 1-unit wide hole in a wall, but when shooting between a wall and a dretch that's up to 5 units away from the wall, you will hit the dretch.
Dragoons should not be able to bite when pouncing, they're already overpowered in my opinion.
Allow me to explain this. In 1.1 you could bite while pouncing, but doing so would cancel the pounce damage. So you could do one or the other but not both, and there was no indication what was happening. I felt this was unacceptably unintuitive, but even if it were obvious it's a false choice anyway: it's always be better to do a flying head-chomp than to just deal the pounce damage (unless you're pouncing into a structure). I'm sure there are people that would rather lose the pounce damage and keep the flying bite, but I think this way is more fun, more accessible, and more interesting (bite is for close range, pounce is for long).
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Norf, let me throw this at you.
Dragoons are the workhorses of the Alien team. They have to provide the heavy infantry role or elite soldier role. They have substantial health, damage, and mobility. This is necessary because they cover not 1 but 2 stages, in 1.1.
The problem with goons (as with a lot of things in 1.1) is that they require a minimum of skill to use but can easily exploit inexperienced players. Basically, slightly experienced players can dominate slightly experienced players to an unfair extent because pounce damage is so high and stage 1 humans are so weak.
Why not lower pounce damage significantly but allow 'flying headchomps' (chomping while pouncing) to compensate?
My belief is that headchomps take more skill and is a desired skill to encourage over simply pouncing naked humans to death. By weakening pounce, inexperienced or unarmed humans aren't goon fodder. On the contrary, novice players using goons would have to step up their abilities in order to dominate with the class. Skilled players would be able adapt and obviously gain more use from the class. But the skilled players are already deadly with the goon. By stepping down pounce damage and allowing a pounce+bit combination, it is just forces the exploitative players to earn their kills.
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Basically, slightly experienced players can dominate slightly experienced[sic] players to an unfair extent because pounce damage is so high and stage 1 humans are so weak.
My belief is that headchomps take more skill
Why not lower pounce damage significantly but allow 'flying headchomps' (chomping while pouncing) to compensate?
How significantly? Because -- since head-biting does more damage than pouncing -- you'd have to make it negative twenty to balance out their combined damage. And I agree that it takes more skill to headchomp than to pounce, so it sounds like your suggestion would precisely exacerbate the problem it's supposed to solve.
And if you mean that biting should cancel pounce damage like in 1.1, and that pounce damage should be lowered, then there would truly be no reason to ever use the pounce damage. Everyone would learn to bite during pounces, and everyone with enough skill to pull it off would do more damage during pounces than they do now.
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What problem is there with pounce, other than it takes relatively no skill to kill naked humans?
I don't see how forcing players to rely on headchomps for the lethal damage to be exacerbating any problems. The problem is that a stage 1 human team can be held hostage by a player that figured out how to hold right mouse button. The problem is that everyone doesn't rely on headchomps and everyone can't use goons skillfully (but still accumulate a respectable share of kills).
I'm not trying to tell you how the game works. I'm trying to tell you are fixing the wrong problem with a solution that is watering down the game. 1.1, goons are the cavalry and rants are the siege. But 1.2, goons are just slightly smaller and acrobatic rants.
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i disagree! 1 goon can be very easily taken out by 2 or 3 s1 humans.
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There were some minor changes made last week that I forgot to mention here:
- Pounce time scaled back to 800ms.
- cg_sprintToggle - changes the behavior of +button8 to toggle sprinting. Works better than the old behavior of 'boost' (you don't have to press sprint again if you stop moving) and obsoletes putting sprint on movement keys.
- Evolving no longer resets your velocity.
- Apparently stamina was broken - you could no longer black out from sprinting too much. That's been fixed, and its behavior slightly altered: in 1.1 you could continue sprinting into negative stamina (when your view starts to bob and you begin blacking out), but thereafter couldn't begin sprinting again (or to start with, if you jumped into negative stamina). This was a little unintuitive and unnecessary, so now you can begin sprinting whenever you have any amount of usable stamina.
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i disagree! 1 goon can be very easily taken out by 2 or 3 s1 humans.
I hope you are being sarcastic.
Imagine if you have more than 1 goon, how many humans would it take then?
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Tremulous 1.1 is:
S1: Aliens Overpowered
S2: Humans Overpowered
S3: Humans camping at Base, Aliens Pushing, then, it can happen two things:
1ºAliens push, push, them win
2º3 Humans with Lucy, with 1 Bs with Chain attack allien base, they die, but destroy all eggs. Humans win.
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i disagree! 1 goon can be very easily taken out by 2 or 3 s1 humans.
I hope you are being sarcastic.
Imagine if you have more than 1 goon, how many humans would it take then?
If the just have rifles then lots, but the goon cost 3 evo's, so should be better than 0-cost hummies.
A human with larmour + a gun can take out a goon.
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Make chaingun spin first before firing and it's gg :)
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- Evolving no longer resets your velocity.
Good moves
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Make chaingun spin first before firing and it's gg :)
They already raped the damage.
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They already raped the damage.
but reduced the spread
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They already raped the damage.
but reduced the spread
It's noticeably suckier.
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yeah, I prefer the old Chaingun better...
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They should make the chaingun so it takes a few seconds to start the barrel and it needs a deeper, louder sound.
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Go ahead and make it
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... and I felt it was much more important to give builders the freedom to build forward without feeding the enemy team. And it's turned out that having forward bases encourages offense a lot more anyway.
:o I agree with temple, reward for destroying base = win. If there's no benefit to destroying bases then I'd just camp outside the base and kill whore till SD, and with Share switched on the whole team would be stocked with evos. Or on the flip side, no point in leaving base, I'll just ret hug and pick off the aliens too slow to leave the base, get creds that way.
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It's good that I don't have to bind sprint to my movement keys any more. It's much better toggling it imo :D
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... and I felt it was much more important to give builders the freedom to build forward without feeding the enemy team. And it's turned out that having forward bases encourages offense a lot more anyway.
:o I agree with temple, reward for destroying base = win. If there's no benefit to destroying bases then I'd just camp outside the base and kill whore till SD, and with Share switched on the whole team would be stocked with evos. Or on the flip side, no point in leaving base, I'll just ret hug and pick off the aliens too slow to leave the base, get creds that way.
There is no share in 1.2
Reward for killing base = you win the game.
One could also argue that if buildings give money, people would camp more to protect them.
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If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else. :)
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this might be a bit random for a few of you people, but i just took a look at some of the textures that you guys have done to the aliens/weapons/humans, and to any of you developers who see this, You did an amazing Job.
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There is no share in 1.2
Yeah, for about 5 minutes until someone releases a QVM with share.
If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else. :)
Ohh, screw credits then. I'll just whore the buildings for a while then. In all honesty score > credits.
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If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else. :)
If it gives you points, why shouldn't they give evos/credits?
I think that spawns and main structures should give credits/evos as, if nothing else, a punishment for building them badly. My main purpose of this is so that if someone rushes a base when it is empty and manages to take out the OM or something, but dies, he is gains nothing from it unless the entire team takes advantage of it (and from my experience with 1.1, maybe 2-4 of the better players actually rush when you tell them to and I doubt 1.2 shall be any different). If the entire team does not take advantage, the exploit goes to waste, and it is very likely that the rusher used up the last of his credits in that rush, and is thus, left creditless in the rush. If they got credits, they would be able to rush again and do more damage. This, gives more motivation to rush, especially for humans, if they can take out forward bases and win some easy credits.
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If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else. :)
That almost makes it feel off how it should feel. I don't want some faggot picking off acid tubes to look better on the scoreboard when I'm dueling it out with rants. I also agree that main structures should at least give some revenue reward.
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How is someone going to be picking off acid tubes without dealing with rants? How are acid tubes going to be worth more than a rant? That's a crazy assumption.
Everything contributes to winning a game. So killing structures should give a reward just like killing players. There shouldn't be a gap in how credits/evos are handled.
Someone said that if structures give credits/evos, then people will camp them. Well....they camp them anyway. There still should be an incentive for risking your credits/evos to siege the enemy's base. Otherwise, players will not have the credits/evos to attack the base again.
You can't stop people from camping. You can punish people for camping. But regardless of that, you can also reward those who do something else. The problem is the only way to earn upgrades is by killing enemy players. And enemy players can sit in their base and effectively halt the game and halt their opponents from getting any credits without SUPER ELITE SKILLS.
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Temple, in my experience there is a lot of noobs who run off and pick off lower ATCS base thats almost irelevant while the rest of us are holding off tyrants at our base or down the hallway. I'd rather people focus on eggs and the overmind since those are the structures that actually matter, but not noobs who manage out of base will have score incentive to go after acide tubes and barricades and other structures that other than Sudden Death hold no impactual reason to destroy. If they're built well and you need to get past them thats the only reason and thats the only incentive you should need. Most people find running past them/luci jumping more effective to the game and it fits well because those structures still do damage in that instance where as with human's range if they were overpowering those structures would be completely useless.
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Actually, picking off outer structures is useful because queued BP means it will take time before they or anything else can be rebuilt. Do it enough and you're picking off inner structures until there is nothing left.
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Maybe so, but I was playing last night on 1.2, and I rushed, and destroyed 90% of the alien base, but a granger got away, and I died from exploding structures, so I had no creds to chase down the granger, and he managed to get his entire base rebuilt.
So, IMHO, OM/RC + Nodes/Eggs + Booster/Arm-medi should give creds/evos.
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I don't particularly disagree but I'm not the one to convince. :)
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Why can't you run down a granger with a rifle? And where were your team?
(I agree that the base should give some funds somehow)
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It was in Nexus6, and it was 3v2.....Wallwalk makes it easy for him to get away....
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- Evolving no longer resets your velocity.
so can u like be a goon and pounce into hummie base while evolving into rant and hop rc/eat base with rant?
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In theory, but you could do that in 1.1 as well. In 1.1 you needed to be directly overhead. In 1.2 you need to be on your way there.
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Actually, picking off outer structures is useful because queued BP means it will take time before they or anything else can be rebuilt. Do it enough and you're picking off inner structures until there is nothing left.
In an involved team effort yes, one lone rifle couldn't keep up with the queued BP most likely. It is mostly pointless bitter against some random noob getting score for not doing anything effective. I also would rather have people focus on main structures first, taking out eggs will hurt aliens far more than taking out tubes ever could since aliens rely on themselves as the biggest point of defense being able to spawn effeciently is far more positive. Which is why vital structures like spawns and power sources shoul definitely retun revenue credit while defense structures shouldn't, this way it encourages people to work towards ending the game, not killwhoring acid tubes to make their score higher.
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- Evolving no longer resets your velocity.
so can u like be a goon and pounce into hummie base while evolving into rant and hop rc/eat base with rant?
Great idea! On Tremor and Transit especially, guess I'll be using that to get armories in 1.2 lol.
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- Evolving no longer resets your velocity.
so can u like be a goon and pounce into hummie base while evolving into rant and hop rc/eat base with rant?
Great idea! On Tremor and Transit especially, guess I'll be using that to get armories in 1.2 lol.
I'd definitely use that on atcs with lisk or goon to get up top and evolve into rant in the process. Can you imagine just seeing a rant flying over the top at pouncing speeds?
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Aliens can't evolve near humans, so this whole flying goon to rant idea isn't possible in any useful situation.
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Aliens can't evolve near humans, so this whole flying goon to rant idea isn't possible in any useful situation.
Are you sure? You can start your pounce, evolve, and be barreling through the air with your rant before you get close enough to humans to disallow evolving, right? Does sound kinda like some bs if it works that way.
Lakitu I think you're wrong this time, cause in 1.1 what temple said *is* completely relevant. You would have to be right above the base when you evolve, and it would say too close to enemies.
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Are you sure? You can start your pounce, evolve, and be barreling through the air with your rant before you get close enough to humans to disallow evolving, right?
If anyone ever manages to do that then I will crown them king of Tremulous.
In an involved team effort yes, one lone rifle couldn't keep up with the queued BP most likely. It is mostly pointless bitter against some random noob getting score for not doing anything effective.
Honestly I'd prefer them whittling away the bases defenses then kill whoring. Plus aliens are always running through their base so that guy will no doubt need to deal with aliens soonish.
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In an involved team effort yes, one lone rifle couldn't keep up with the queued BP most likely. It is mostly pointless bitter against some random noob getting score for not doing anything effective.
Honestly I'd prefer them whittling away the bases defenses then kill whoring. Plus aliens are always running through their base so that guy will no doubt need to deal with aliens soonish.
Which is exactly why its an issue. Someone can go kill 1 maybe 2 tubes get killed and looking at the score board most people wouldn't realize he's feeding when he really is. He would be giving the aliens evos and score while only obtaining a very minor amount of score that wouldn't be helping us any. It will just encourage people to work on irelevant items and feed the aliens revenue.
I don't encourage kill whoring either, but whats better about killwhoring tubes that don't give revenue to get upgrades instead of dretches? I would prefer people take out as many big aliens as they can and after they've banked up revenue work on *proper* base rushes that include focusing on eggs and the overmind.
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I don't encourage kill whoring either, but whats better about killwhoring tubes that don't give revenue to get upgrades instead of dretches? I would prefer people take out as many big aliens as they can and after they've banked up revenue work on *proper* base rushes that include focusing on eggs and the overmind.
They don't though. Instead they usually kill whore all the nice easy to kill dretches with their luci canon and 2000 credits. Not only that but as people have mentioned before you don't get the BP back from destroyed structures straight away (especially if you're close to max BP) so that base could be without those tubes for a while.
Even if you could tell that the player isn't doing much how does that help you? Most servers don't allow you to kick total noobies for being terrible at the game. If you really do need/want a detailed breakdown of what each player is doing then something like F-SIT would probably be your best bet.
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What does "projectile volume 5 (against entities but not map architecture)" mean in the weapon descriptions?
It means, basically, that the projectile has a volume of 1 unit cubed with respect to walls and floors, but of 5 units cubed with respect to players and structures. So you can shoot through 1-unit wide hole in a wall, but when shooting between a wall and a dretch that's up to 5 units away from the wall, you will hit the dretch.
My apologies, 5 is actually the "radius" of the cube; they're 10 units on a side. Changelog corrected and clarified.
My main purpose of this is so that if someone rushes a base when it is empty and manages to take out the OM or something, but dies, he is gains nothing from it unless the entire team takes advantage of it (and from my experience with 1.1, maybe 2-4 of the better players actually rush when you tell them to and I doubt 1.2 shall be any different). If the entire team does not take advantage, the exploit goes to waste, and it is very likely that the rusher used up the last of his credits in that rush, and is thus, left creditless in the rush.
This is intentional. Players fight each other to build up funds; the team that gets more attacks and loses their advantage; repeat. Or they win the game. Teamwork helps.
If they got credits, they would be able to rush again and do more damage.
This didn't happen when we tried it.
Maybe so, but I was playing last night on 1.2, and I rushed, and destroyed 90% of the alien base, but a granger got away, and I died from exploding structures, so I had no creds to chase down the granger, and he managed to get his entire base rebuilt.
So, IMHO, OM/RC + Nodes/Eggs + Booster/Arm-medi should give creds/evos.
If you were the only one attacking then the aliens deserved to recover. It's a team game, and making it play well with fewer than six players isn't a high priority.
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Norf, I understand that Tremulous is meant to be a team game, but in all reality, it will not actually be one, with the exception of pickup games and scrims. The most a team will be able to scrape together will be maybe two or three people. And since you seem to be designing it to be balanced for the masses and not necessarily for scrims, which are definitely more strategic and teamwork based. Also, you seem to refer back to your dev games a lot. Last time I played in your planned dev games, I got yelled at for going out alone even though I doubt I was feeding The dev games are played much like pickup games and not at all like regular games will be played since everyone who plays is somewhat into tremulous already.
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Whatever dude, I feed like crazy and so do many many other people in the alpha/dev games
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....with the exception of pickup games and scrims.
blackoutblackoutblackoutblackoutblackout
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Whatever dude, I feed like crazy and so do many many other people in the alpha/dev games
I guess I got on on a bad day. Sorry, but that was just my experience.
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The most a team will be able to scrape together will be maybe two or three people.
Which is often enough. You don't usually need to organize every player on your team, just more than the other team does.
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Hey I have a question, can the quake (3 is it? cant remember) engine handle a graphics upgrade? or would have to just make a whole new engine, or alternatively, can you upgrade this one? A graphics upgrade would be in the range of maybe a thousand more ploys handled on each model at max, with out any more lag than it has now, for example.
Also is it possible to create bump mapped textures for this engine? or any advanced textures for that matter...
ALSO will 1.2 be a download by its own? or will it be simply an update download for the current version (note that I would prefer that it be its own new thing, since tremfusion messed up my console with tremulous, and I don't feel that I should have to go through the trouble of doing the work they said would fix it. I just want to start over)
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Beta is an add-on to your existing, not-broken install. Final will be standalone.
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Beta is an add-on to your existing, not-broken install. Final will be standalone.
Yeah I know the beta, thanks though, for answering the question. I'm getting a freaking boner from it being standalone in final, I wont make the stupid mistakes I did before with the some of the add ons.
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Hey I have a question, can the quake (3 is it? cant remember) engine handle a graphics upgrade? or would have to just make a whole new engine, or alternatively, can you upgrade this one? A graphics upgrade would be in the range of maybe a thousand more ploys handled on each model at max, with out any more lag than it has now, for example.
Also is it possible to create bump mapped textures for this engine? or any advanced textures for that matter...
Could someone answer these as well?
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Hey I have a question, can the quake (3 is it? cant remember) engine handle a graphics upgrade? or would have to just make a whole new engine, or alternatively, can you upgrade this one? A graphics upgrade would be in the range of maybe a thousand more ploys handled on each model at max, with out any more lag than it has now, for example.
Also is it possible to create bump mapped textures for this engine? or any advanced textures for that matter...
Could someone answer these as well?
What he said
AND
CAN WE PLEASE HAVE SOME SORT OF FRIENDLY NO COLLIDE PLEASE!!!, not structures of course but player, its really annoying when you constantly bump into other players. Also maybe some structures should have no collide to friendlies too, like the booster, for example, or if not no collide, the ability to walk over it with out jumping.
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Use this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12076.0) thread for feedback (or, you know, the feedback forum (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=3.0)). This thread is for asking about changes you want explained.
Split doomagent13's (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12274.0) and wolfbr's (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12275.0) suggestions into separate threads.
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Please post feedback for 1.2 in the feedback forum (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=3.0); this thread is for asking about changes you'd like explained. Better to not bury your post ten pages deep anyway.
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ok i dont know if u all will like my idea but what ever i think the best way for no camping is extreme suddendeath for me it was the best in Trem but now it's gone :(
maybe extremsd will be back ?
and another thing is that uhm hmm idk how to explain but if i push attack with my mouse
it feels like it attack a little bit later maybe its my mouse but on trem 1.1 it work all good
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Tremulous 1.2 is really nice game for me. For extreme camp you can make for example ''promod'' like it was before. With this flying reapter.
Anyway im glad that i can come back to this game. (Finally something new)
Anyway from recent changes, basi is too much overpower now imo. Now you can kill 3 ppl with helmet without any scratch O.o , really easy one. But i like it. :)
Basi <3
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Honestly guys as long as you keep the changes balanced, I don't care if I have to adapt to using a granger with 10000hp.
All I care about at the moment is the skins, especially that md I saw.
"Anyway from recent changes, basi is too much overpower now imo. Now you can kill 3 ppl with helmet without any scratch O.o , really easy one. But i like it.
Basi <3"
Basi's were always strong, people just never clued in that basi swipe indeed had a longer range than basi grab.
Which leads to my next issue:
Why did you make basi grab longer than basi swipe?
That'd be like suggesting I would be able to properly and effectively grab someone before
I punch their teeth in. ???
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That'd be like suggesting I would be able to properly and effectively grab someone before
I punch their teeth in. ???
Basilisks slash, not bite. And no one brought up realism when the slash was longer than the grab.
Realism has never been priority; Tremulous really isn't a particularly atmospheric game, and is definitely not a simulation, so I've never thought approaching its design from that standpoint was the right way to go.
I'm not sure I remember why those basilisk changes were made, but I'm pretty sure the grab range was increased simply because I wanted it to be easier, and then the slash range was reduced, probably to put it at parity with the painsaw (which is at 64 now). So basilisks still have the advantage if they can position themselves well, but painsaws aren't quite as helpless. And 64 for the basilisk slash is much more appropriate than 96 -- that's almost what the tyrant's reach is.
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Realism ruins games.
If it were realistic, when you died, well, you could never play the game again.
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Psh, in 2000 years they will have clones and teleportation. ;D
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It doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to make sense.
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ok i dont know if u all will like my idea but what ever i think the best way for no camping is extreme suddendeath for me it was the best in Trem but now it's gone :(
ESD = everyone camp. Only dead players not camp, because they doing absolutely nothing.
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ESD / SD don't fix camping, they just make it end faster. The problem with camping is that a team can have all players sit in one place and not lose instantly. Domination mod pl0x.
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I've already spoken to risujin about getting domination mod updated. The }MG{Domination server is/was my all time favourite trem server.
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I've already spoken to risujin about getting domination mod updated. The }MG{Domination server is/was my all time favourite trem server.
Talking to yourself again? Risujin left us for a few dollars :(
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Just because he's not active in trem stuff doesn't mean he's dead.
He's still around and said it probably wouldn't be too hard and hopefully he'll have time some point over christmas.
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pls i wanna have XD Extreme suddendeath !! <3 XD
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I've packaged tremulous-gpp for Arch Linux. It's available in AUR (http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32567) and as a binary from the Arch-Games repo. (http://arch-games.twilightlair.net/projects/show/gaming-repo)
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I've packaged tremulous-gpp for Arch Linux. It's available in AUR (http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32567) and as a binary from the Arch-Games repo. (http://arch-games.twilightlair.net/projects/show/gaming-repo)
I love you!
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Lucy is now WAY TOO FAR OVERPOWERED. I played many games, and that's what I disliked the most.
It becomes now very difficult a lucy with a rant or a goon...
And I find goon's and rant's range too short, but I didn't play those classes enough to have a real opinion.
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Im too lazy to search, so when will be full release? In thursday?
Or we need to wait littlebit more?
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Im too lazy to search, so when will be full release? In thursday?
Or we need to wait littlebit more?
yes
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Or we need to wait littlebit more?
Wait plus play a lot on the official servers.
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Is the increased basi grab range intended to allow it to grab humans for other aliens to kill?
Would it be worthwhile to disable friendly fire damage for the basi while grabbing?
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Is the increased basi grab range intended to allow it to grab humans for other aliens to kill?
It was intended to make it somewhat easier to grab in general.
Would it be worthwhile to disable friendly fire damage for the basi while grabbing?
Why would it be worthwhile to single out one class in one situation to be killable by teammates when friendly fire is off, especially when that one situation is an act of teamwork?
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Would it be worthwhile to disable friendly fire damage for the basi while grabbing?
Why would it be worthwhile to single out one class in one situation to be killable by teammates when friendly fire is off, especially when that one situation is an act of teamwork?
Correct answer: On the official servers, FF is off anyways.
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I don't know where I should post bugs. Bugtracker not work.
Well: in 1.2 gpp is still wallwalk bug "ass attack": http://www.mediafire.com/?ln3tmzwdxaz (demo is from 1.1)
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The hovel might be lets say something like where grangers can hide in and shoot powerful barbs, makes the granger much more defensed. And will the new weapons and alien thingies (claws etc.) in the full release of 1.2?
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i have a few questions about unlagged and other stuff:
1) Does unlagged have different versions or is it just unlagged(only one version)? If there are different versions, does 1.2 use a newer version of unlagged?
2) Can 1.2 use another type of unlagged or is unlagged the only type of addition you can make to the engine to make shooting hitscan? I know other shooters have a form of unlagged and call it a different name. Would it be possible to implement other versions from other games to see if hitting becomes smoother?
3) In 1.1, you could pounce a wall near a human while looking at the human and still kill the human. Can you still do this in 1.2? It was very irritating in 1.1 when I thought I had dodged a goon only to see it pounce the wall and somehow slide and kill me. Another way of asking this is: Does hitting a wall now cancel out your pounce?
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The hovel might be lets say something like where grangers can hide in and shoot powerful barbs, makes the granger much more defensed.
I actually like this idea. :D
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I like that idea as well. Maybe it could shoot an ooze that slows down humans.
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Adv. Hovel: fully automatic.
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Maybe a hovel that.... well tbh it's a bit late for that. :(
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NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER.
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You've become so strong, Face.
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I blame the company he keeps. :P
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Come on this is just the beta! Besides, they said they didn't remove the model so it is easy to get the hovel as a great hideout for grangers.
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who cares, building is a drag anyway. :-\
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At least we have our [hovel] ;)
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i finally managed to register in the forum.
I play tremulous since it was released as standalone.
Very nice changes, now people start to build more
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Okay, so I actually bothered to get on and play more than just a few minutes. I played a few hours straight on GPP US server.
THIS SHIT SUCKS.
Human issues.
-I can't comment on the dodge because I couldn't get it to work. People tried to help me on the server but it was useless, +button8 did absolutely nothing for me.
-Pulse and Flamer are way stronger than they need to be. They were fine how they were before.(a good pulse helm could take goons easier than a shotty helm imo in 1.1)
-They just feel slower, probably because I couldn't get any boost going.
-Luci needs a way to conserve ammo. I always tried to keep something charged in 1.1. The right click cancel main charge was such a vital part of luci especially now with the long recharge time.(I'll need to try out itemtoggle blaster and see if that works for it)
-Those rets are retarded, I watch a lisk kill 5 rets on niveus without needing to retreat at all. That should NOT be possible, it was easy for him. Sure they do a lot of damage if they lock on, but those fuckers do not lock on to shit. I swear it's like they have down syndrome.
-Maybe I'm wrong on this, but it feels like bsuit is stronger. I was in Alien base and I kept making ugh sounds but yet I would not die. It seemed like I could survive shitloads of hits as long as it wasn't a Tyrant trample. It's overpowered imo.
Alien issues.
-Lack of hovel.
-Trample is only useful in open spaces, a lot of maps lack these. To narrow of places are way to rough on aliens in general because of their size. Also, when you can utilize trample properly, it's like 7 tremx Acid Barbs from Advanced Tryants. Seriously, why the fuck would you want to make Tyrant so shitty in general but then give it one attack if utilized right that can kill an entire fleet of rushing humans in under 700 milliseconds?
-The regen is too slow, even with lisks around. Especially when you can't get a lisk around. I mean, I thought gpp was suppose to help with camping, it doesn't. Neohunter and I were on aliens, and we clearly had skill stacked BIG time over humans, yet we couldn't do shit to them because they camped. Their weapons are also stronger than in 1.1, so the camping makes it even harder, then on top of that, we can't stick on them and snipe because we weren't getting enough hp back to be effective enough. We couldn't afford one of us to be lisk either because then we lost too much offensive power.
-Lack of hovel.
-Marauder doesn't move as well as it did in 1.1.
-Marauder slashing is pointless, you can do so much more damage with zap. Zap is still way overpowered.
Things I like
-Rant viewpoint, takes adjusting to but it's better and more realistic.
-Any range alterations made, once again hard to adjust to, but better than all these weird side chomps rants/goons could get in 1.1
General Comments -
Humans are EXTREMELY over powered.
Camping is even worse than it was in 1.1.
Everything feels sluggish and the game run slower and less fun than 1.1.
Lucifer Cannon and Tyrant have been turned to shit. Huge nerfs in some areas and huge boosts in others. Without it's speed now luci is shit, and without trample tyrant is worse than adv granger.
In other words.
1.2 sucks and I would much rather see that(now dead) A server with the store credits/5,000 dmg granger barbs as 1.2 than this shit norf + mg devs developed.
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Silver, agree but I would like to mention that unlagged change 1.2's gameplay alot. Aliens are generally better on unlagged off.
And, who the heck enabled ul on euro server?
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"Few hours" aren't that much
Humans
1) You can attach dodge and sprint using options menu (I have dodge under shift and toggable sprint under x and I heard Norf has same setup >:( )
2) As I agree with the flamer (and I really don't think that "ff will balance it") I don't really think that pulse is that powerful, I enjoy using it at humans and rarely have troubles with killing them as aliens. Could shoot slower, though.
4) These were bugs that are now fixed. You abused them (like many including me) and now you suffer, your fault. And adding ablility to discharge luci wouldn't be smart as many people consider it as overpowered
5) Learn to build :)
Aliens
1) Why would you use it since you have barricades?
2) I actually find trample useful in close quarters, as humans can't dodge it.
3) I feel rant's regen actually quite faster than other classes (yes in relative dimension not just faster)
4) It moves different, not worse than in 1.1
5) I agree it's overpowered, but only in base rushes, 2 maras can really be deadly for rets. Yet slash is primary mara's attack for me, I use zap only against nakeds and low hp humans running away.
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Yes, a lone s1 granger can take out all of the rets on atcs by itself, if no humans had spawned yet
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"Few hours" aren't that much
Few hours at one collective point. Since after it went from tjw to mgdev I've probably put close to 300 hours into what they're calling "1.2". I've put about 30 hours in since gpp was released but normally it's in half hour segments.
Humans
1) You can attach dodge and sprint using options menu (I have dodge under shift and toggable sprint under x and I heard Norf has same setup >:( )
I'll try that out next time I'm on, I know my sprints were working fine last time I played, but that was over a week ago. I hadn't changed anything either to my knowledge
2) As I agree with the flamer (and I really don't think that "ff will balance it") I don't really think that pulse is that powerful, I enjoy using it at humans and rarely have troubles with killing them as aliens. Could shoot slower, though.
Idk, I has having trouble ranting pulses and while I may not be the best player in game, I'm definitely not a noob.
4) These were bugs that are now fixed. You abused them (like many including me) and now you suffer, your fault. And adding ablility to discharge luci wouldn't be smart as many people consider it as overpowered
Be it originally a bug or not, it was a key element of the game that all of the regulars accepted and used for over 3 years.
5) Learn to build :)
Even if you build pretty damn good, these rets are worse than 1.1 rets, you can't deny it. I could wait for a door to open, go in, go around the rets and get 2-3 of them before they started locking on and killing me with a goon. When they were right in front of the door while it slowly opened and they just looked at me like a retarded for year old while making their little charge up sound.
Aliens
1) Why would you use it since you have barricades?
I've explained this probably 100 times.
1- it's free
2- it's a reward for s3
3- it has a longer blocking range(but lower height wise) than barricade, which makes great for blocking off entrances.
4- when a lone human rushes into base and I'm an s1 granger, nothing beats being able to hide in the barricade while a dretch works on the human. It's saved me literally over 1,000 deaths as a granger since I started playing this game.
5- it's free
2) I actually find trample useful in close quarters, as humans can't dodge it.
I'm talking about the metro station map. There is so many pretrusions on the wall that your trample gets interrupted and you keep missing the humans by getting caught on corners. In a narrow way yeah it's useful because they can't dodge, but rant can turn pretty fast so even in an open space it's hard for them to dodge without wasting all their stanima which renders them virtually defenseless anyway.
3) I feel rant's regen actually quite faster than other classes (yes in relative dimension not just faster)
Rant regen isn't too bad, but what about pre-s3? Also I find adv goon more effective for base killing, it really is hard, especially with maps where humans are behind closed doors, to solely down a base with a rant or two in a 6v6, whereas adv goons can work on rets 1 barb at a time just like before.
4) It moves different, not worse than in 1.1
Disagreed, mara's movement is what made it so good in 1.1 if you could use it right. I think mara belongs as one of those, steep learning curve but when you learn it it's more effective than goon class.
5) I agree it's overpowered, but only in base rushes, 2 maras can really be deadly for rets. Yet slash is primary mara's attack for me, I use zap only against nakeds and low hp humans running away.
I found if I got a full zap soloed on one person for maximum zap length it was way more effect than slashing, especially since slashing requires you to be right there very close aimed at them where zap gives you a little more mobility both in your area of view and position.
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4) These were bugs that are now fixed. You abused them (like many including me) and now you suffer, your fault. And adding ablility to discharge luci wouldn't be smart as many people consider it as overpowered
Be it originally a bug or not, it was a key element of the game that all of the regulars accepted and used for over 3 years.
Not fixing a bug just because people got used to it is kinda silly. Same thing should happen to dretch (biting heads from the floor bug) but I don't find this being an issue (or at least big one) anymore. Also, it's definitely possible to get used to "fixed" 1.2 luci.
5) Learn to build :)
Even if you build pretty damn good, these rets are worse than 1.1 rets, you can't deny it. I could wait for a door to open, go in, go around the rets and get 2-3 of them before they started locking on and killing me with a goon. When they were right in front of the door while it slowly opened and they just looked at me like a retarded for year old while making their little charge up sound.
They are harder to use (place), but stronger, at least against bigger aliens. Teslas, on the other hand, are even worse than in 1.1 because of range nerf
Aliens
1) Why would you use it since you have barricades?
I've explained this probably 100 times.
1- it's free
2- it's a reward for s3
3- it has a longer blocking range(but lower height wise) than barricade, which makes great for blocking off entrances.
4- when a lone human rushes into base and I'm an s1 granger, nothing beats being able to hide in the barricade while a dretch works on the human. It's saved me literally over 1,000 deaths as a granger since I started playing this game.
5- it's free
1 - you have 50bps boost, so you can build 6 more barricades anyway
2 - A reward for s3 is fat tank rant, not fat tank bunker
3 - Yes it was also blocking rants (AFAIK)
4 - Why would you want to be s1 granger at s3? And at that stage base should be able to help dretch kill the human while leaving you safe. And it's original function (granger home) was used extremely rarely at it wasn't useful almost at all.
5 - ad1
It was already explained why it's deleted (in OP). Personally I don't think Hovel had any impact in gameplay. I will miss my hovel rushes as human, and raping it as gwangar (http://patrz.pl/?515204) :(
3) I feel rant's regen actually quite faster than other classes (yes in relative dimension not just faster)
Rant regen isn't too bad, but what about pre-s3? Also I find adv goon more effective for base killing, it really is hard, especially with maps where humans are behind closed doors, to solely down a base with a rant or two in a 6v6, whereas adv goons can work on rets 1 barb at a time just like before.
Well other classes (especially mara) have really slow regen when there's nothing boosting it, but with lisk's regen aura you can heal up in like 5 seconds, which is, in my opinion, fast enough.
4) It moves different, not worse than in 1.1
Disagreed, mara's movement is what made it so good in 1.1 if you could use it right. I think mara belongs as one of those, steep learning curve but when you learn it it's more effective than goon class.
I used mara in both 1.1 and 1.2, and I think that 1.2 mara is still pretty good, easier to play as. It feels really slow compared to 1.1 mara though and I miss this camera thing when you bounced off the wall. Still I use it much more than goon lately, it feels quite clumsy :P
5) I agree it's overpowered, but only in base rushes, 2 maras can really be deadly for rets. Yet slash is primary mara's attack for me, I use zap only against nakeds and low hp humans running away.
I found if I got a full zap soloed on one person for maximum zap length it was way more effect than slashing, especially since slashing requires you to be right there very close aimed at them where zap gives you a little more mobility both in your area of view and position.
Zap can kill a naked with 2 hits, not sure about armored humans (never bothered to read statistics), yet I still prefer slash over zap because zap have hell long interval between attacks. But that's just my preference. To the point, as a human I didn't really feel it overpowered in regular fights I find slashes more dangerous, since once you enter it's range, mara can hit you few times until you leave it, and aiming zap is still quite hard.
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Hovel's wide range was useful in blocking off entrances you don't want anything through, including your team. (blocking vents was always nice way to keep feeding dretches from going in them) Also, even advanced granger is hard to fight/run with.
The rets are stronger but so much easier to dodge and avoid.
Problem is, getting someone on your team to be a lisk. When you only have 1-2 decent players, you can't afford one of them to be a lisk because the other one can't handle the humans by himself.
1.2 Mara is easier to use and because of zap slightly stronger. Thats what I don't like though, they've turned it into goon 2.0. 1 powerful easy to use s1 class is enough thanks.
I found with slash, it was better 1v1, as it should always be. But against 2 humans zap could deal loads of damage and was pretty easy to stay on one of the targets at least while avoiding getting hit. Although the movement nerfs make it harder to dodge with mara.
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Looks like silver's taking over for me in more than just the server. =D
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Oh yeah, anyway we can look into reducing the scoring system, preferably by 1/10th or at least by 1 half. I mean, my score at 500+ in a game seems a little ridiculous, I see full public games with lots of pollacks ending up with people getting 2k+ scores. Which just looks very unappealing to the eyes and will confuse the shit out of people.
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Oh yeah, anyway we can look into reducing the scoring system, preferably by 1/10th or at least by 1 half. I mean, my score at 500+ in a game seems a little ridiculous, I see full public games with lots of pollacks ending up with people getting 2k+ scores. Which just looks very unappealing to the eyes and will confuse the shit out of people.
Conservatist. Get used to change.
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Score inflation. >.>
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Oh yeah, anyway we can look into reducing the scoring system, preferably by 1/10th or at least by 1 half. I mean, my score at 500+ in a game seems a little ridiculous, I see full public games with lots of pollacks ending up with people getting 2k+ scores. Which just looks very unappealing to the eyes and will confuse the shit out of people.
Conservatist. Get used to change.
In that point of view we must absolutely have share/donate on. It is the OBLIGATION of the wealthy to support the poor people on the team who REFUSE to earn their own credits.
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Oh yeah, anyway we can look into reducing the scoring system, preferably by 1/10th or at least by 1 half. I mean, my score at 500+ in a game seems a little ridiculous, I see full public games with lots of pollacks ending up with people getting 2k+ scores. Which just looks very unappealing to the eyes and will confuse the shit out of people.
Conservatist. Get used to change.
In that point of view we must absolutely have share/donate on. It is the OBLIGATION of the wealthy to support the poor people on the team who REFUSE to earn their own credits.
WTF are you talking about now? Cut the bullshit please.
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In all honesty, it looked to me like he just owned you. :D (jk still lub u)
btw omg I have a delete button now :O
nvm
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As silver mentioned that he was unable to set up sprint and doge, I thought it might be necessary to write a step-by-step tutorial on how to set them up.
First:
Connect to a server, and press Escape (located on the upper-left on most keyboards), and go to the Options menu, and then the Move sub-menu. Observe this image:
(http://bobis.boldlygoingnowhere.org/tutorial1.png/tutorial1.png)
We will focus on three labels: Dodge, Sprint, and Sprint Toggles.
To set the key you wish to press when you want to dodge, click on the Dodge label, and then press a key. To set the key you want to press when you want to sprint, click on the Sprint label, and then press a key. You will then be able to sprint whenever you press that key. Finally, if you only want to press sprint once, click on Sprint Toggles if it is not yet set to "Yes". Once you do that, you will only need to press sprint once once you spawn, and press it again to turn it on / off. I recommend setting the sprint key to shift, as it's close to your default movement keys, and more important than slow walking; and I also recommend setting Sprint Toggles to on. You will know you're sprinting when the lighting bolt on your HUD is Flashing.
If you have had troubles thus far, or wish to use the console, or want to put these in your .cfg's instead, there is another method.
Observe this image:
(http://bobis.boldlygoingnowhere.org/tutorial1.png/tutorial2.png)
Using the console, I have bound sprint to shift by typing "/bind shift +button8". I then enabled sprint toggle by setting cg_printToggle to 1. Finally, I bound v to dodge.
Hope this helps ;)
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the balance changes were primarily intended to fix camping?
Btw, Silver, I found your comments slightly amusing, but also slightly annoying, as they can mislead new players. Oh well, I just hope no new players will believe that a basi can easily penetrate a decently-built human base or that charge is actually harder in narrower places, before trying it out first. :)
Bugs can and do happen; the worst I in my opinion was the three month orso period during the 1.1 balance testing server in which unlagged was unknowingly disabled, even with g_unlagged on. Nobody could hit anybody :P
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Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the balance changes were primarily intended to fix camping?
Btw, Silver, I found your comments slightly amusing, but also slightly annoying, as they can mislead new players. Oh well, I just hope no new players will believe that a basi can easily penetrate a decently-built human base or that charge is actually harder in narrower places, before trying it out first. :)
Bugs can and do happen; the worst I in my opinion was the three month orso period during the 1.1 balance testing server in which unlagged was unknowingly disabled, even with g_unlagged on. Nobody could hit anybody :P
@ the sprint stuff. It still wasn't working, my sound also died. I re-installed both trem + gpp and now it works. I knew how to set it up and I knew what +button8 was(well, I never tried the GUI menu, because I'm too used to doing everything through console). It just stopped working.
Moving on.
If you assume that new players come to this section of the forums and actually bother to read any of these posts. Then you can just go ahead and stop posting now. Your ignorance is lacking the worth of an opinion. These threads are for the people familiar with the game, both 1.1 and 1.2. Where we discuss the changes that we know, from playing both for a considerable amount of time.
I was just saying in that one example, a basi easily downed a lot of turrets. I've seen some set ups that work pretty damn good, but usually especially in open spaces those rets just lock on way to slow and are way to easy to avoid.
I said nothing about change being harder in a narrow space. You're retarded. I said that trample is in-effective in a CRAMPED place with lots of pretruding objects that block the majority of the trample from reaching the human. I think it's better in slightly open places especially ones with clean walls. Bumpy jagged walls are hard to pin the humans on.
I also didn't say change was harder, I just said it was stupid.
I actually think 1.2 is easier to play than 1.1. It just has a lot of stupid features I'm really not a fan of. This is, however, my and solely my opinion. Everyone here, has some difference of opinion to some minor degree and no matter what we do, some of us will always think what we think. It will be hard to effect that. Even though some of us give up and don't argue, we still hold those opinions.
I will doubtfully ever agree with your standpoint and vice versa.
Btw, don't call someone a conservatist if you clearly don't understand the meaning of the word, most importantly it's opposing party.
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i dont think youve gotten very used to 1.2 yet powa buddy. its not 1.1 you cant just go and do the same things and expect to be pro. think about it and re-define your game. adaptation/survival thats what its about, darwinism ftw.
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Silver, I thank you for actually playing GPP before commenting :). Contrary to the opinions of several others, I believe that a few hours, usually at least six games, are enough to comment on gameplay.
I was just saying in that one example, a basi easily downed a lot of turrets. I've seen some set ups that work pretty damn good, but usually especially in open spaces those rets just lock on way to slow and are way to easy to avoid.
Usually, when something only happening a few times or once, it isn't a good reason to dislike it IMO; I think a better reason would to dislike the balance changes is if it's common. I watched somebody who dretched 5 bsuits in a row, but that doesn't mean much since dretches usually don't get past the first, especially when there are multiple humans.
Aside from that, when non-newbies build, basis usually have a lot of trouble killing the turrets. I'm willing to contend that basis will be unable to kill more than one turret at a time with most (most) human base setups that worked in 1.1.
I would much rather see that(now dead) A server with the store credits/5,000 dmg granger barbs as 1.2 than this shit norf + mg devs developed.
I'm honestly sorry to hear that you would probably rather play the A / X server (they're the same, right?) than GPP balance. I would much rather play 1.1 than the X server. Btw, multiple people outside of MG helped with the implementing the balance, including myself, who's written the most non-trivial (in my opinion) change of the new balance, zone BP.
I said nothing about change being harder in a narrow space. You're retarded. I said that trample is in-effective in a CRAMPED place with lots of pretruding objects that block the majority of the trample from reaching the human. I think it's better in slightly open places especially ones with clean walls. Bumpy jagged walls are hard to pin the humans on.
-Trample is only useful in open spaces, a lot of maps lack these. To narrow of places are way to rough on aliens in general because of their size. Also, when you can utilize trample properly, it's like 7 tremx Acid Barbs from Advanced Tryants. Seriously, why the fuck would you want to make Tyrant so shitty in general but then give it one attack if utilized right that can kill an entire fleet of rushing humans in under 700 milliseconds?
By stating that trample is only useful in open spaces, you imply that it's not useful in spaces that are not open. I, and probably most other active GPP players, agree that trample is much harder in open spaces. The trick is to corner the human and trample him against against a wall.
Where did you state or imply that trample is only ineffective specifically in cramped places with lots of protruding objects?
I also didn't say change was harder, I just said it was stupid.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Did you forget the word "the" while you were referring to the balance changes, or did you mean to type "charge"? As far as either goes, could you please explain what you mean by saying they are "stupid"? Both seem pretty intelligent to me ;)
Trample isn't too tough to dodge, btw; even without using "dodge". I'm also open for convincing otherwise, as with anything else.
-Marauder slashing is pointless, you can do so much more damage with zap. Zap is still way overpowered.
I would love to convince you otherwise; I've been practicing! ;)
Also, zap does less damage than a headslash, and zap has longer repeat than slash.
I actually think 1.2 is easier to play than 1.1. It just has a lot of stupid features I'm really not a fan of. This is, however, my and solely my opinion. Everyone here, has some difference of opinion to some minor degree and no matter what we do, some of us will always think what we think. It will be hard to effect that. Even though some of us give up and don't argue, we still hold those opinions.
I think this would be a good thing, but I disagree with you. The menus thus far (I think there will be new ones in the final or later on) haven't changed much. If you're fighting against a person more skilled than you are with the new balance changes, you'll still normally find killing them more difficult.
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i dont think youve gotten very used to 1.2 yet powa buddy. its not 1.1 you cant just go and do the same things and expect to be pro. think about it and re-define your game. adaptation/survival thats what its about, darwinism ftw.
Why adapt to something less enjoyable than the previous version?
@ bob - you said that I would make newbies think change is harder. I never said that change was harder, I said it was stupid. Thats all. The it-refers to change in that statement. I think the 1.2 balance changes are stupid. Clear enough for you?
I re-emphasized the trample stuff later on. I typed too fast in the first post throwing out quick thoughts. I think its useful in places that you can turn around, and that the walls aren't jagged. Even listed a specific map.
You're re-quoting an old quote that we've already discussed with the zap/slash mara stuff.
I was not playing against people more skilled than me and I only lost one round. My score was always at the top of the list when I played.
Also like I said, I've played about 30 hours on gpp, and over 300 hours on mgdev.
This was the first time I played with balance and testing in mind on gpp though, I usually just check if anyone's on AA and goof off.
I also gave up playing on mgdev a few months before gpp was released.
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Btw, I honestly don't care if you're views differ from mine, since there are many GPP players against which to fight :)
you said that I would make newbies think change is harder. I never said that change was harder, I said it was stupid. Thats all. The it-refers to change in that statement. I think the 1.2 balance changes are stupid. Clear enough for you?
Btw, Silver, I found your comments slightly amusing, but also slightly annoying, as they can mislead new players. Oh well, I just hope no new players will believe that a basi can easily penetrate a decently-built human base or that charge is actually harder in narrower places, before trying it out first. :)
If you meant that making change is hard, I don't see how you could interpret my message as that, nor did I intend it to be; or if you meant that that playing with the new balance changes is hard, that's not true, because it's still relative; i.e, an experienced player will most likely have a better time than a more inexperienced player.
Now, I don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't want players to believe the absurd comments (not all of them were) before they playing it themselves. The perhaps most absurd claim, if not the turrets, is that using a tyrant without charge is worse than using an adv. granger. Tyrants are faster than adv grangers, deal 100dmg; their range is twice the adv granger's range, and their width is five times the adv granger's width. Since tyrants are faster, deal more damage, have much more health, and are more lenient with their aim, they are more powerful than adv grangers. You also claimed that regen is too slow even with basilisks around. You heal faster next to a basilisk than you would normally in 1.1 balance.
Norfenstein is considering making the Marauder faster, perhaps by increasing their air acceleration.
I also must admit that having reasons for disliking the new balance, no matter how bad they are, is better than just outright baselessly claiming that the new balance sucks. Thank you. :)
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Btw, I honestly don't care if you're views differ from mine, since there are many GPP players against which to fight :)
you said that I would make newbies think change is harder. I never said that change was harder, I said it was stupid. Thats all. The it-refers to change in that statement. I think the 1.2 balance changes are stupid. Clear enough for you?
Btw, Silver, I found your comments slightly amusing, but also slightly annoying, as they can mislead new players. Oh well, I just hope no new players will believe that a basi can easily penetrate a decently-built human base or that charge is actually harder in narrower places, before trying it out first. :)
If you meant that making change is hard, I don't see how you could interpret my message as that, nor did I intend it to be; or if you meant that that playing with the new balance changes is hard, that's not true, because it's still relative; i.e, an experienced player will most likely have a better time than a more inexperienced player.
Now, I don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't want players to believe the absurd comments (not all of them were) before they playing it themselves. The perhaps most absurd claim, if not the turrets, is that using a tyrant without charge is worse than using an adv. granger. Tyrants are faster than adv grangers, deal 100dmg; their range is twice the adv granger's range, and their width is five times the adv granger's width. Since tyrants are faster, deal more damage, have much more health, and are more lenient with their aim, they are more powerful than adv grangers. You also claimed that regen is too slow even with basilisks around. You heal faster next to a basilisk than you would normally in 1.1 balance.
Norfenstein is considering making the Marauder faster, perhaps by increasing their air acceleration.
I also must admit that having reasons for disliking the new balance, no matter how bad they are, is better than just outright baselessly claiming that the new balance sucks. Thank you. :)
I thought you said change not charge, my bad.
You took me so literal on the tyrant/adv granger thing to go as far as to attempt and explain the differences. I can't even begin to think of a cohmprehendable reply to that. I mean... seriously?
I didn't say healing aura with lisks suck, I said GETTING a lisk on your team sucks. Not many volunteers and you need your hard hitters for fighting.
The turrets do suck. Open your fucking eyes. THEY HAD TO DISABLE DRETCH'S ABILITY TO HURT BASES BECAUSE A DEVELOPER WAS ABLE TO DRETCH ENTIRE BASES WITH EASE. HOW DOES THAT NOT REGISTER IN YOUR TINY HEAD THAT THE TURRETS ARE TOO SLOW AT AIMING.
I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to mock me with such ill-regarded compliments also.
Also, I don't necessarily have anything to comment on the balance but..
THE NEW GAMEPLAY IS COMPLETELY HORSE SHIT
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Good to see you're keeping an open mind. ::)
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You took me so literal on the tyrant/adv granger thing to go as far as to attempt and explain the differences. I can't even begin to think of a cohmprehendable reply to that. I mean... seriously?
Yes, because several of the other comments were absurd too.
I didn't say healing aura with lisks suck, I said GETTING a lisk on your team sucks. Not many volunteers and you need your hard hitters for fighting.
It's perhaps true that getting a lisk on your team sucks, but you did imply in your post that healing aura with lisks suck:
The regen is too slow, even with lisks around.
The turrets do suck. Open your fucking eyes.
They deal more damage each second and have longer range, in exchange for the spin-up. They can be very powerful. My favorite place for them in niveus is in the window room. They're totally deadly there.
THEY HAD TO DISABLE DRETCH'S ABILITY TO HURT BASES BECAUSE A DEVELOPER WAS ABLE TO DRETCH ENTIRE BASES WITH EASE.
Wrong. That's not the reason for the change. Dretches can also be deadly to a building base. I've played many games in which a building RC was dretched.
HOW DOES THAT NOT REGISTER IN YOUR TINY HEAD THAT THE TURRETS ARE TOO SLOW AT AIMING.
If turrets aim too slow now, then it was even worse in 1.1, since they aim twice as fast now; however they do have a spinup.
Looks like silver's taking over for me in more than just the server. =D
And he's done a great job.
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THEY HAD TO DISABLE DRETCH'S ABILITY TO HURT BASES BECAUSE A DEVELOPER WAS ABLE TO DRETCH ENTIRE BASES WITH EASE.
Wrong. That's not the reason for the change. Dretches can also be deadly to a building base. I've played many games in which a building RC was dretched.
no, that's exactly the reason. however allowing small aliens to get past the turrets was the entire point of the change. if a basilisk could hide behind a single turret without getting shot at, that's the builder's fault.
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THEY HAD TO DISABLE DRETCH'S ABILITY TO HURT BASES BECAUSE A DEVELOPER WAS ABLE TO DRETCH ENTIRE BASES WITH EASE.
Wrong. That's not the reason for the change. Dretches can also be deadly to a building base. I've played many games in which a building RC was dretched.
no, that's exactly the reason. however allowing small aliens to get past the turrets was the entire point of the change. if a basilisk could hide behind a single turret without getting shot at, that's the builder's fault.
Oh. I was wrong there. I should have looked at the reason, first. :)
It's a good reason, anyhow.
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If you think the new turrets are bad, you really need to see a proficient builder use them.
A good builder can make the new turrets absolutely devastating; more so than the 1.1 turrets.
If you build like it's 1.1, they're going to suck.
If you build like it's 1.2, they're going to be amazing.
You decide.
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If you think the new turrets are bad, you really need to see a proficient builder use them.
A good builder can make the new turrets absolutely devastating; more so than the 1.1 turrets.
If you build like it's 1.1, they're going to suck.
If you build like it's 1.2, they're going to be amazing.
You decide.
+1 if you build a good base in 1.2 everything gets raped.
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If you think the new turrets are bad, you really need to see a proficient builder use them.
A good builder can make the new turrets absolutely devastating; more so than the 1.1 turrets.
If you build like it's 1.1, they're going to suck.
If you build like it's 1.2, they're going to be amazing.
You decide.
+1 if you build a good base in 1.2 everything gets raped.
Which only emphasizes the human overpowered thing. It also helps increase human camping.
I also have to disagree, any base, unguarded in 1.2 is easier to kill than any 1.1 base. Which means the turrets are less effective.
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If you think the new turrets are bad, you really need to see a proficient builder use them.
A good builder can make the new turrets absolutely devastating; more so than the 1.1 turrets.
If you build like it's 1.1, they're going to suck.
If you build like it's 1.2, they're going to be amazing.
You decide.
+1 if you build a good base in 1.2 everything gets raped.
Which only emphasizes the human overpowered thing. It also helps increase human camping.
I also have to disagree, any base, unguarded in 1.2 is easier to kill than any 1.1 base. Which means the turrets are less effective.
... So you agree that they are better, but that makes humans overpowered, but you also disagree and think that the turrets are less effective. Also better turrets somehow equals more camping? Ok.
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This is a good niveus base. Of course, it's not impossible to destroy it, but it's pretty tough to hurt.
These turrets are well placed.
15 -244.0162048 -22.0350731 63.0625004 0.0 -46.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -46.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
10 -530.0811768 458.0515289 228.0625000 0.0 117.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 -330.0 295.0358948 1.0 2 0 0.0
9 -534.0731384 336.0407196 212.0625000 0.0 -179.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -179.0 1.0 0 0 0.0
9 -361.0417786 175.0383087 212.0625000 0.0 1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 1.0 1.0 0 0 0.0
1 1328.0 224.0 303.0125000 0.0 405.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 405.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
12 -364.0313721 -52.0143719 13.0625000 0.0 -1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -1.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
14 -330.0547119 27.0262064 7.0625000 0.0 -44.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -44.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
10 -591.0699280 83.035957 20.0625000 0.0 -80.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 -358.0762177 59.0353149 1.0 2 0 0.0
1 928.0 -144.0 207.0125000 0.0 217.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 217.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
1 1272.0 -16.0 303.0125000 0.0 315.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 315.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -591.0362854 412.0197449 20.0625000 0.0 96.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 -358.062347 321.0634277 1.0 2 0 0.0
2 1488.0 128.0 303.0125000 0.0 17.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 17.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
4 1136.0 0.0 254.0406281 0.0 0.0 0.0 -0.0600000 0.0 0.0800000 30.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -548.0219543 -34.0392651 68.0625000 0.0 -135.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 -135.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
4 1480.0 -96.0 303.0125000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -614.0336365 255.0940186 20.0625000 0.0 -177.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 -177.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
10 -219.0422424 548.0461853 20.0625000 0.0 42.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 42.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
4 928.0 240.0 207.0125000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -467.0594543 491.0838898 84.0625000 0.0 -145.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 -145.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
I think the window room is the best location for the human base in Niveus, but it's hard to move there.
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If you think the new turrets are bad, you really need to see a proficient builder use them.
A good builder can make the new turrets absolutely devastating; more so than the 1.1 turrets.
If you build like it's 1.1, they're going to suck.
If you build like it's 1.2, they're going to be amazing.
You decide.
+1 if you build a good base in 1.2 everything gets raped.
Which only emphasizes the human overpowered thing. It also helps increase human camping.
I also have to disagree, any base, unguarded in 1.2 is easier to kill than any 1.1 base. Which means the turrets are less effective.
... So you agree that they are better, but that makes humans overpowered, but you also disagree and think that the turrets are less effective. Also better turrets somehow equals more camping? Ok.
No, I think the base as a whole is more effective if built right. I think the turrets themselves are less effective though because of the spin up time. Better turrets lead to better camping, not more camping. In hand though, that can lead to more camping, if it's more effective to as the base can hold off things better. Also, the base alone, is easier to kill than an empty 1.1 base(discluding rc hops) if you understand how to move fast enough. You can usually get 1 turret with no damage, where in 1.1 unless you were good at using the rets to block each other you almost always lost a fair bit of hp to get a ret or two.
The bases are more effective, the the turrets as individuals are less effective. I know it sounds like a weird concept, but it really makes sense if you think about it.
--Edit---
Before we continue any further.
I just wanted to clarify, while a lot of my posts are written out of pettyness and an attempt to mock.(or at least appear that way) I'm only doing these posts because I care. I want 1.2 to be something I feel is successful and in the end I know probably none to very very little of my feedback will ever produce any outcomes towards the game itself. But how can I sit back and bitch about 1.2 later if I don't feel that I put every ounce of effort I could into assisting it's production. I'm going to try and keep the flames down and be less offensive because it's only making me sound like an idiotic hot-head. It's not my intention, I'm just semi-overstressing from work and stuff and then attempting to use witty-sarcasm but I'm failing pretty bad.
On the other perspective. Please understand this, not all of my posts are thorough and induce my entire thought-train. They will also contain mistakes. I am only human and I miss-interpet things and sometimes have difficulties explaining myself to the details I would like to. Please try not to take my posts as literal as you can and look more at the concept of my suggestion. Make sure you're understanding all perspectives of my view points before you're fast to troll it if you're going to reply. I want to question every change because thats the only way I can begin to understand it and make a well-founded decision about it. So just as I will question your questions, question my questions. Thats the only way all of us can be productive and mature.
Sorry for being immaturish and trollish. Please work with me to understand I'm not trying to be an ass, it's just my nature.
I hope to play a lot of gpp games, and give some well educated feedback that can be helpful, but in the end I will still stand by my opinion, and so far my opinion is not in favor of gpp. I like 1.1's gameplay more. Cheers hope to see you all in game. ;)
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Before we continue any further.
I just wanted to clarify, while a lot of my posts are written out of pettyness and an attempt to mock.(or at least appear that way) I'm only doing these posts because I care. I want 1.2 to be something I feel is successful and in the end I know probably none to very very little of my feedback will ever produce any outcomes towards the game itself. But how can I sit back and bitch about 1.2 later if I don't feel that I put every ounce of effort I could into assisting it's production. I'm going to try and keep the flames down and be less offensive because it's only making me sound like an idiotic hot-head. It's not my intention, I'm just semi-overstressing from work and stuff and then attempting to use witty-sarcasm but I'm failing pretty bad.
On the other perspective. Please understand this, not all of my posts are thorough and induce my entire thought-train. They will also contain mistakes. I am only human and I miss-interpet things and sometimes have difficulties explaining myself to the details I would like to. Please try not to take my posts as literal as you can and look more at the concept of my suggestion. Make sure you're understanding all perspectives of my view points before you're fast to troll it if you're going to reply. I want to question every change because thats the only way I can begin to understand it and make a well-founded decision about it. So just as I will question your questions, question my questions. Thats the only way all of us can be productive and mature.
Sorry for being immaturish and trollish. Please work with me to understand I'm not trying to be an ass, it's just my nature.
I hope to play a lot of gpp games, and give some well educated feedback that can be helpful, but in the end I will still stand by my opinion, and so far my opinion is not in favor of gpp. I like 1.1's gameplay more. Cheers hope to see you all in game. ;)
Well written :)
As far as whether or not stronger turrets affect camping goes, I don't believe the result is much different. Stronger bases can encourage and enable humans to leave their base, but they also makes camping more effective. Players will benefit from sitting in their base since it's the safest place in which to be and most dangerous for aliens, while they also need at least a little defence. GPP certainly doesn't fix the problem of camping. The proper solution to camping is to require them to go outside their base for resources (BP, free funds, etc.). This concept was originally implemented by Risujin (http://risujin.org/tremulous/#domination).
I still play on 1.1 servers occasionally, and I like GPP's gameplay more; but that's just my opinion, of course.
Since the matter of FF seems to be an issue, I'll say this: I sometimes prefer FF on when I'm playing with decently skilled and decently behaved players. Teamkillers can get really annoying; newbies with horrible aim can too, but they're usually easily avoidable. I don't have a strong opinion about friendly fire. I'm just glad that Norf's "going to try to make the game acceptable to people that have either opinion". Unless I missed something, I'm fairly sure that the decision to turn FF off was, if not to not ignore balance for that setting, a bit arbitrary, and to later turn FF on, perhaps most importantly to balance for it.
Edit: Btw, I'm writing this post without much thought after a long an stressful day, and I'll think about edits tomorrow since kevlarman seems to think this post is spam.
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i actually like the 1.2 turrets and i don't think they make humans overpowered. the same amount of rets in 1.2 can be more effective than in 1.1 if you use them correctly. also, gpp is a lot funner than 1.1. something more difficult is always funner as along as its not too difficult.
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i actually like the 1.2 turrets and i don't think they make humans overpowered. the same amount of rets in 1.2 can be more effective than in 1.1 if you use them correctly. also, gpp is a lot funner than 1.1. something more difficult is always funner as along as its not too difficult.
I don't think it's more difficult. They designed it to lower the learning curve, making lisk and mara easier/more valuable to use.
I do like that the building process is more complicated, however. It gives it more of an RTS feel. I just don't quite like the rets, I feel they should deal slightly less damage and have a little better spin up range. Also teslas should be less like shocking and more like a pulsing pushback. To help keep maras from raping. They should do minor shock damage, and be able to do some kind of knockback every 2-3 seconds. That'd be better than a constant minor knockback.
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i like the slower turrets. if some d-bag is just standing on them, its alot easier to take him/her out and make your escape taking less damage. therefore camping may not be as effective in certain situations.
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i like the slower turrets. if some d-bag is just standing on them, its alot easier to take him/her out and make your escape taking less damage. therefore camping may not be as effective in certain situations.
It also means you're more likely to be required to camp. It seems an adv mara could hop into a well built base and do a lot of damage before it died every time, even with 1-2 of us there. We had to be very well keen to have at least 3 people at base at any point every H game I've played. Which is a hassle, especially on transit when we were chasing down the last few grangers as they attempted to eggspam and keep an overmind up.
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It seems an adv mara could hop into a well built base and do a lot of damage before it died every time, even with 1-2 of us there. We had to be very well keen to have at least 3 people at base at any point every H game I've played. Which is a hassle, especially on transit when we were chasing down the last few grangers as they attempted to eggspam and keep an overmind up.
The best ways to avoid zap are, in my experience, to spread out buildables (as aliens spread their buildables against humans' s2 grenade), or to prevent the marauder from being able to zap consecutive times without receiving damage. The latter is usually be the better layout whenever it's possible. The window room human base in niveus I posted is an excellent example of a non-zap-friendly base, since a marauder will already be hurt a lot before being close enough to zap anything, and he has no safe spots behind which to hide. In niveus default base spot, the best spots imo for turrets are in the corners, since marauders will have a tough time zapping them.
I wouldn't consider a zap-friendly base well built.
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that may be so powa, but im pretty sure. if we are raping that maras base, in other words we arent camping and constantly applying the pressure, which isnt so farfetched now in 1.2. it has 2 options, try and take out the human base, risking failure/death. Not only this but should that mara succeed, its gonna have to take out a majority of the human team, which is extremely difficult now that regen is limited. Not to mention if it does choose to go back. it probably will end up dying anyway.
people dont camp because of turrets or because of any of the gameplay changes. people camp because they are stupid and/or lack any skill. Both of which the devs have no control over. The only thing i would suggest is a tutorial explaining the objective, adjusting your sens and boost binds, gfxs and some basic tactics for all too see. otherwise we are stuck with these idiots.
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You're assuming you can manage to win the game in that one rush though. You could fail to succeed your rush and find that the single mara did a more effective rush than your whole team.
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Then you should learn to build.
Also learn to defend.
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Defending unfortunately, equates to camping a lot. One person defends, then 5-6 people are defending.
You can't deny that adv mara is one of the best base rushing classes now.
I will admit though that I'm not very familiar with 1.2 building yet though.
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Defending unfortunately, equates to camping a lot. One person defends, then 5-6 people are defending.
You can't deny that adv mara is one of the best base rushing classes now.
I will admit though that I'm not very familiar with 1.2 building yet though.
Adv mara's can rape bad bases in 1.2 however if you spread out the base right then mara's won't be able to touch it.
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In all the 1.2 games I've played I really haven't seen a base that wasn't bad.
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You should have waited for norfenstein; he knows how to build a base in 1.2
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I should hope so.
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I played the beta and liked it, but to me it just feels like one of those games that you leave to collect dust once you beat it. I'm looking foward to the full release of 1.2 when its done.
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I played the beta and liked it, but to me it just feels like one of those games that you leave to collect dust once you beat it. I'm looking foward to the full release of 1.2 when its done.
ya bro. once they add a new HUD and then the claws for aliens and the new weapon details. trem might look good. but if they add like 3 more alien classes and a few more guns. trem will be so much better.
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Played a bunch more, I think it'll work.
Learned to rape with the basic Dragoon, the Dretch, and Basic Rifle. (requires much more skill and focus than 1.1)
Found out that like in 1.1, the team which is on the ball will win.
Found that the Lucifer Cannon isn't that overpowered, you just gotta intercept it before it's in your base.
Only problems: Dretch is worth too much if you kill it.
ROF for the Pulse Rifle is a bit too much, should be closer to 3/4 or 2/3 of what it is.
Given it's ROF, secondary shot for the Lucifer Cannon should do more damage.
Observations: Jetpack seems to have been left behind, I almost never see it in use.
Chokepoints are the friends of humans, never aliens (Uncreation, anyone?)
Human bases must be built with care, or they won't last you one respawn. (atcs, any setup where the aliens spawn near hBase).
Found an application for the tyrant, I can park it in front of the Overmind and go do something else, that way the first
shots won't hurt the OM, and I'm helping my team.
After 5-10 games I'm wasted. 1.2 doesn't seem as recreational as 1.1, more hardcore like BF 2142 or a Ghost Recon game.
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After a lot of trolling, complaining, and perspective, i've come up with some points about 1.2 i'd like to make.
The :basilisk: grab range cannot be further than the swipe range. At the very least make them equal.
As i've said before, you cannot grab someone before you smash their face in. You can do both at the same time, but generally your first will reach the face before you can grab their neck.
Obviously the Tremulous devs don't know how to fight, which makes the basilisk a pussy alien. So what if it has healing aura, that doesn't make it the healer. Tyrant in 1.1 had healing aura and he also had 400 fucking hitpoints, you cut down basi health and then give it healing aura?
gg. in a "Oh boy Hells is trolling and mega pissed again" way.
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OH MY GOD!!!
MAKE THE BASILISK GRAB TOGGLEABLE!
Think about it.
Most experienced or inexperienced basi players will notice the disorienting problem when they don't know when they'll grab, and at times get stuck because they're grabbing when they don't know it. Make it the basi's choice to grab or not, don't force it. Have it an instance like zap, barb, etc, and I swear people will love the concept. Only lazy people want an automatic basi grab.
By the way, I think a lot of pro's find it frustrating because some noob who doesn't even know how to bind, and has 200 more hours experience in 1.2, can outkill them.
I found that out the hard way today.
Please devs consider the toggle for basi grab, i'm going to be late for school cause of this post. lol. XD
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1) I see no reason why you would want grab toggleable, as it basically doesn't have any disadvantages, it doesn't slow down/stop the lisk. Well, it makes a sound (which theoretically might be a problem, but I can't find any practical situation where could be). It works just like auto repair for ckit.
2) Well if someone played 200h of GPP and then kicked your ass, this means that he's just better than you. Knowing how to bind doesn't make you shoot better. Norf has like 100 times bigger knowledge about trem than me, and I can still kick his ass 8)
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After a lot of trolling, complaining, and perspective, i've come up with some points about 1.2 i'd like to make.
The :basilisk: grab range cannot be further than the swipe range. At the very least make them equal.
As i've said before, you cannot grab someone before you smash their face in. You can do both at the same time, but generally your first will reach the face before you can grab their neck.
Obviously the Tremulous devs don't know how to fight, which makes the basilisk a pussy alien. So what if it has healing aura, that doesn't make it the healer. Tyrant in 1.1 had healing aura and he also had 400 fucking hitpoints, you cut down basi health and then give it healing aura?
gg. in a "Oh boy Hells is trolling and mega pissed again" way.
Haha.
Please realise that ALIENS are not Humans, and don't have fists. It's extremely conceivable that the basilisk grabs with it's arms, but only deals damage with it's mouth. So that grab range can very easily be longer than swipe, or something.
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Obviously the Tremulous devs don't know how to fight, which makes the basilisk a pussy alien. So what if it has healing aura, that doesn't make it the healer. Tyrant in 1.1 had healing aura and he also had 400 fucking hitpoints, you cut down basi health and then give it healing aura?
What are you trying to say here? Giving the basi the healing aura was a great idea. It was probably the most underused alien in 1.1, now it is used a lot more and is so important to the alien team.
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Explain to my why basi attacks with his mouth. He is not a tyrant, he is not a dragoon, he has a small mouth and to be frank if I met one in real life i'd kick it. I wouldn't worry about the tiny thing biting me.
It's small, it has to use it's reach to it's full advantage otherwise it's going to die. Yes, basi was used much less in 1.1, but it was much more theoretically correct and much more effective than a mobile booster.
Hp was cut down, effectiveness of the basi is worse. Trust me, a noob who has no clue what the grab range is going to chase the human and try to bite him then all of a sudden the human stops while the basi is still moving. Dead basi. Toggling basi grab (you can make it on automatic, and have it optional to be toggled off.) it'll just save me a lot of headache and frustration.
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Explain to my why basi attacks with his mouth. He is not a tyrant, he is not a dragoon, he has a small mouth and to be frank if I met one in real life i'd kick it. I wouldn't worry about the tiny thing biting me.
It's small, it has to use it's reach to it's full advantage otherwise it's going to die. Yes, basi was used much less in 1.1, but it was much more theoretically correct and much more effective than a mobile booster.
Hp was cut down, effectiveness of the basi is worse. Trust me, a noob who has no clue what the grab range is going to chase the human and try to bite him then all of a sudden the human stops while the basi is still moving. Dead basi. Toggling basi grab (you can make it on automatic, and have it optional to be toggled off.) it'll just save me a lot of headache and frustration.
I still don't understand what you are arguing about. How was the basi more effective in 1.1? The basi now is a lot more effective than it was in 1.1, and you cannot argue against that. The basi can heal its team and it also has a longer grab range, i'm not too sure about the bite range ( I think that is less than 1.1). The longer grab range makes it 10x easier to grab your target and kill him. Why would you want it to toggle it off and on? I think that would just confuse noobs even more.
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You guys obviously have no experience with basi, it's range was the best attribute to it. So what that they can grab from far away now? They still have to move close to hit, and by the time they get to the human the grab is already reset and the human has moved accordingly. Good game noob basi players, good game.
Oh right while the devs develop the game they forget the fact we're the true players of Trem, we spend more time than they do developing. good game devs, good game. lol.
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You guys obviously have no experience with basi, it's range was the best attribute to it. So what that they can grab from far away now? They still have to move close to hit, and by the time they get to the human the grab is already reset and the human has moved accordingly. Good game noob basi players, good game.
Oh right while the devs develop the game they forget the fact we're the true players of Trem, we spend more time than they do developing. good game devs, good game. lol.
You obviously have no experience with the new basi. If you grab a player with the new lisk and fail to keep that grab then that is your fault and you are not experienced enough. The new lisk is by far easier than the 1.1 lisk, and it is more effective. The rest of your post just shows how stupid you really are, I think you should stop embarrassing yourself with these stupid posts.
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good game devs, good game. lol.
It actually is quite good. You should try playing sometime.
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seems to be balanced, but still think it needs some adjustments:
exemple: humans weapons> some weapons are powerful considering that the aliens are weaker, especially using teamwork
i have some suggestions.
Humans
painsaw> add overheating bar.
rifle> add more spread reduce the efficiency in medium/long distance, and add 2x scope(for long range,less spread and and movement).
shotgun> easy to hit, the 1.1 shotgun is fine to me.
lasgun> add ammo clip and some spread exemple> 30/40 cells per clip, fast reload(like a half life'S 2 AR2), and add 4x scope(for long range,less spread and and movement) .
Mass Driver> the the 1.1 Mdriver is good in 1.2(and add 4x/8x scope).
chaigun> the 1.2 is good against small aliens, would be improved rifle, the Flamethrower already has the function of killing small aliens(and add overheating bar)
Flamethrower> hum, nice, but, yet it is easy to cause damage to yourself and allies.
Prifle> the speed is good, but, strong. add some spread(this gun would be useful in short distances), and add overheating bar.
Lcannon> i like it, but, i like the old lcannon, could be interesting to have 2 lcannon(close and long range)
in relation to aliens, I have no more suggestions, I'll play a little more aliens to see if I have more ideas that could perhaps help improve the game.
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please DO NOT add any of this.^
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lasgun> add ammo clip and some spread exemple> 30/40 cells per clip, fast reload(like a half life'S 2 AR2), and add 4x scope(for long range,less spread and and movement) .
So what makes the lasgun worth buying then? No reloads and accuracy are it's thing. Your way it's just an expensive version of the rifle.
I vote we take all your suggestions, and then half all the aliens damage to make up for it.
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Fuck overheating bars.
Those Ideas are gay. We all know about how the humans have the advantage in offensive power. The diversity you are trying to introduce has no purpose. [mumbles to self] what will they try next? humans that can be controlled by alien hosts? mumble mumble
Oh, and if you need a scope, the map you're playing on is too big.
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my suggestions are to encourage teamwork, and to diversify the gameplay.
currently(1.2), Battle suit + Lcannon = an army of one man, I do not see many disadvantages in some weapons, I believe that the game would be more fair and balanced.
tremulous 1.1 = Humans afraid of aliens.
tremulous 1.2 = aliens afraid of Humans.
it would be interesting> aliens = humans(both with their differences, pros / cons, different gameplay experience).
what will they try next? humans that can be controlled by alien hosts? mumble mumble
this idea could be interesting if well prepared ;)(i like half life :P)
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I am more affraid of rifle battlesuit than lasgun battlesuit.
my suggestions are to encourage teamwork, and to diversify the gameplay.
You really think that changing lasgun and pulse to another versions of riffle or giving half of the weapons "overheating bar" diversifies the gameplay?
The only think I agree with, is the rifle, far too effective as a free weapon. It's much harder to kill few rifles as a dretch than to kill few dretches with a rifle. Maybe reduce ammo in a clip to 25?
Oh, and aliens =/= humans and will never be (unless you make them exactly same)
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I am more affraid of rifle battlesuit than lasgun battlesuit.
my suggestions are to encourage teamwork, and to diversify the gameplay.
You really think that changing lasgun and pulse to another versions of riffle or giving half of the weapons "overheating bar" diversifies the gameplay?
The only think I agree with, is the rifle, far too effective as a free weapon. It's much harder to kill few rifles as a dretch than to kill few dretches with a rifle. Maybe reduce ammo in a clip to 25?
Oh, and aliens =/= humans and will never be (unless you make them exactly same)
currently lgun, prifle and chaigun are other versions of rifle, My suggestion would be to diversify the weapons.
exemple:
rifle= free gun, usable in any situation.
lgun= like a assault rilfe, good in medium/long range, slow fireinterval, is not very good at short range.
Prifle = like a SMG, good in close/medium range, is not very good at long range.
chaingun= strong in close range or vs gons and tt, but, is not good against small aliens or long range.
about "overheating bar", help reduce in "bullet spam", crazy psaw and in other things.
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I am more affraid of rifle battlesuit than lasgun battlesuit.
my suggestions are to encourage teamwork, and to diversify the gameplay.
You really think that changing lasgun and pulse to another versions of riffle or giving half of the weapons "overheating bar" diversifies the gameplay?
The only think I agree with, is the rifle, far too effective as a free weapon. It's much harder to kill few rifles as a dretch than to kill few dretches with a rifle. Maybe reduce ammo in a clip to 25?
Oh, and aliens =/= humans and will never be (unless you make them exactly same)
currently lgun, prifle and chaigun are other versions of rifle, My suggestion would be to diversify the weapons.
exemple:
rifle= free gun, usable in any situation.
lgun= like a assault rilfe, good in medium/long range, slow fireinterval, is not very good at short range.
Prifle = like a SMG, good in close/medium range, is not very good at long range.
chaingun= strong in close range or vs gons and tt, but, is not good against small aliens or long range.
Adding a spread will make them even more similar to rifle, and I fail to understand your point about chaingun or pulse rifle (which, btw, are ineffective on mid/long range already) being similar to rifle
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A few days ago I took out a healthy adv.goon with a lgun in the atcs hall. I had to give it credit, it didn't try to run away. I play with very low mouse sensitivity, as both teams. I literally have to pick my mouse up and move it back across the pad to turn more than 200dregrees. LGUN is awesome, 1.1 and 1.2 I find myself using it well into s2 to get money for s3
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It's extremely conceivable that the basilisk grabs with it's arms, but only deals damage with it's mouth.
How the heck basi can do damage with its mouth if it has no lower jaw? Look at him guys! he has no lower jaw!
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It's extremely conceivable that the basilisk grabs with it's arms, but only deals damage with it's mouth.
How the heck basi can do damage with its mouth if it has no lower jaw? Look at him guys! he has no lower jaw!
Maybe it tells bad jokes, causing the human to suffer a slow, debilitating brain aneurysm. Coupled with bad gas, bad jokes can be fatal.
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Giving my 2cent here
playing the 1.2 version for a couple of days (played 1.1 alot) I think it is an improvement overall.
Wether it is balanced or not is hard to say. I recognized though that organized humans seemed much more effective than aliens with a similar level of organization (good builders, coordinated attacks, a goon "wingmen" ..). I have the feeling that this partly is an issue due to the meele-character the aliens have and the design of the maps. Any good example I could make here could get many "but"'s in response and I dont have a solution I can offer. I just somehow saw alien teams loose very clearly quite even though player experience levels "seemed" similar on both teams.
If we look at the main tacticaly relevant attributes of a map (as I see it, please correct me) we see that they may suite humans more often if the map is not very well balanced:
Map attributes:
- big size (good for aliens)
- small size (good for humans)
- wide areas (good for humans)
- small passages (good for humans if map small, good for aliens if map big)
I think we should ask ourself how it can be achieved that the impact of the design of a map on the outcome percentage can be lowered. (Sorry complicated english here) Finding a clever way to reduce alien blocking each other may? One that makes sense in a fun yet "realistic" way.
As an open question: With the increased human base portability (repeater BPs) is that balanced now? Is what aliens got in return enough? :-)
An issue that remains from 1.1 is the starter-friendlyness of the aliens. They are not ;) - It may not be an issue that everyone agrees on but no noob feeds as fast as one in a dretch *g* IMHO.
After this post I might seem like an alien lover but infact I allways use autojoin. But since 1.2 it seems to put me into the alien team alot more often - makes me wonder.
bottom line: good work guys! Lots to do still :)
cheers
Mana
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Map attributes:
* big size (good for aliens)
* small size (good for humans)
* wide areas (good for humans)
* small passages (good for humans if map small, good for aliens if map big)
Large maps are never good for the alien team, as they are largely non-prone to building forward bases. Most adv. alien players will dc an forward base attempt by other aliens.
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Map attributes:
* big size (good for aliens)
* small size (good for humans)
* wide areas (good for humans)
* small passages (good for humans if map small, good for aliens if map big)
Large maps are never good for the alien team, as they are largely non-prone to building forward bases. Most adv. alien players will dc an forward base attempt by other aliens.
Wrong. Due to the fact that aliens move very fast and that they don't need to go back to base to heal, large maps are usually much better for the alien team.
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Off-topic question: Is it possible to use custom HUDs? I plan to create a HUD for 1.2, the default one is ok but I'm tired of it.
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Off-topic question: Is it possible to use custom HUDs? I plan to create a HUD for 1.2, the default one is ok but I'm tired of it.
im pretty sure you'll be able to. also, i think that 1.2 will have a completely different hud than what we see in gpp.
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Huds in 1.2 AFAIK will work the same as now, however there are some changes to something or other and all the current huds will have to be changed or something. There's a new cvar (ui_hudFilesEnable maybe?) which defaults to disabling custom huds to stop 1.1 huds breaking the gpp client. Not sure if that cvar will make it to 1.2 or not.
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It doesn't seem to work.
I created an ui folder in S:\Program Files (x86)\Tremulous\gpp\, and then I put in this HUD (http://archive.mercenariesguild.net/HUDs/Colynn'/orb_hud_v2.zip).
I launched Tremulous, type cg_hudFiles "ui/orb_hud.cfg" and then "ui_cgHudFilesEnable 1". After that, /devmap atcs.
The screen became strange, I got all the assets displayed and it took me back to the menu with this error.
ERROR
Default HUD could not be found----- finished R_Init -----
Loading vm file vm/ui.qvm...
File "vm/ui.qvm" found in
"S:\Users\Gauthier\AppData\Roaming\Tremulous\gpp\vms-gppr1960.pk3"
...which has vmMagic VM_MAGIC_VER2
Loading 811 jump table targets
VM file ui compiled to 673923 bytes of code
ui loaded in 4536672 bytes on the hunk
Loaded 44 of 44 emoticons (MAX_EMOTICONS is 64)
UI menu file 'ui/menus.txt' loaded in 230 msec
UI menu file 'ui/ingame.txt' loaded in 19 msec
UI menu file 'ui/tremulous.txt' loaded in 16 msec
UI help file 'ui/help.txt' loaded in 1 msec (16 infopanes)
File "ui/" found in "S:\Program Files (x86)\Tremulous\gpp\data-gpp1.pk3"
]\condump lol
Dumped console text to lol.
No sign of my "ui/orb_hud.cfg". :(
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Map attributes:
* big size (good for aliens)
* small size (good for humans)
* wide areas (good for humans)
* small passages (good for humans if map small, good for aliens if map big)
Large maps are never good for the alien team, as they are largely non-prone to building forward bases. Most adv. alien players will dc an forward base attempt by other aliens.
Uhh.... wrong. I'm not really sure how you could say this and have played Tremulous for any amount of time to be honest. Look at game recordings, aliens win with a good majority on most large maps. This is mostly because, as Bissig said, aliens can move fast to escape, hide in dark corners to avoid detection, and heal anywhere, they can use the large space to their advantage, while humans are forced to be more cautious of their health and often stick closer to their base.
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Map attributes:
* big size (good for aliens)
* small size (good for humans)
* wide areas (good for humans)
* small passages (good for humans if map small, good for aliens if map big)
Large maps are never good for the alien team, as they are largely non-prone to building forward bases. Most adv. alien players will dc an forward base attempt by other aliens.
Uhh.... wrong. I'm not really sure how you could say this and have played Tremulous for any amount of time to be honest. Look at game recordings, aliens win with a good majority on most large maps. This is mostly because, as Bissig said, aliens can move fast to escape, hide in dark corners to avoid detection, and heal anywhere, they can use the large space to their advantage, while humans are forced to be more cautious of their health and often stick closer to their base.
Sentence 1: I've played more tremulous than I'd care to admit.
Sentence 2: True, I didn't say they lose, I say it isn't good or (n00b friendly).
Sentence 3 et al >>
"aliens can move fast to escape" = bullets run faster
"hide in dark corners to avoid detection" = dark corners? No such thing with brightness exploits
"heal anywhere" = tell that to 1.2
"large space to advantage" = large space > more time that the alien is being shot at and less time that the alien is attacking the human.....transit?
"humans are forced to be more caustious.....stick closer to base" = don't blame them, it's their body. :P
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Seems I was right fearing those attributes would cause distraction from the main point I wanted to make ;)
Anything we can/should do about how much the design of a map affects the outcome percentage?
And talking about forward bases again: If humans build two forward bases, they lack BPs equal to one turret in the reactor power range (2x repeater = 8BP).
Aliens do not have local BPs arround eggs. 2 Forward bases (1 egg 2 tubes) would result in a loss of 48 BPs for the main base defenses.
This doesnt mean aliens do not have other advantages compared to the humans that could possibly make up for this (eggs as spawns, structures on walls/ceiling) but I think this inbalance in forward-base-ability should be looked at.
Devs wanted to encourage forward building. I as an alien am more careful with that as when I play a human builder.
o/
Mana
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aliens have 50 bps more than humans and it's easier to defend forward egg as an alien than as a human.
As for transit - if humans manage to kill aliens' base, they can eggspam which require a lot of hunting which require leaving base alone for longer which gives aliens time to do a surprise attack.
And for large maps for general:
- once you run behind the corner bullets will likely stop following you.
- aliens can also just hide (in vents or catwalks) which can buy them some time
- tell that to lisks, forward boosters and creep going out-of-nowhere (ohainexusarachnidniveus)
- he said that wide areas are "good for humans"
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Longer distances between bases favor aliens, as human attackers will be weakened more before they reach alien base, and if aliens notice human attackers (which they usually do, as they are mostly out of base), then other aliens have time to get to base before humans, cuz they are so much faster. On big maps it's ofc easier for aliens to build a base far from humans.
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@Conzul Check the stats on bigger maps aliens win more than humans.
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@Conzul Check the stats on bigger maps aliens win more than humans.
I know this already.
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Unless the wide areas have clear sky that dont allow wallwalk .. how's tha map called .. Blitzkrieg? Rather big in size, small passages but a huge open air area. If humans survive till their stage 2 its pretty much over due to jetpacks. IMHO
Well it seems I have to play 1.2 yet a bit longer and make use of the alien advantages more :)
Is there a link to recent stats somewhere?
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Mkay I rethought it: it's not hude maps, it's huge air-space that hurts aliens. aka transit. And eggspam only works if you can keep the om up.
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Perhaps I'm just blind but I can't seem to find where point values are listed for structures/alien classes/how much gear is on a human. Also, I'd like to know how much each alien class is worth in credits, and how much equipment constitutes more than one frag for kill on a human.
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The *_VALUE numbers in tremulous.h for aliens and structures, the total cost of equipment + 400 for humans. One frag = 400 alien credits.
See G_RewardAttackers in g_combat.c and BG_GetValueOfPlayer in bg_misc.c.
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Still say basi in 1.1 was much better, I could attack from the ceiling. :(
(btw this is just a signature check, to see if it's actually up there o,o)
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I'm not here.
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What exactly is meant by 'Alien Values Up 20%'?
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How much they're worth
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some things related to model scale and bounding box b could be better tucked.
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9861/shot0366.th.jpg) (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/shot0366.jpg/)
about defensive buidables, could be interesting to extend the sense range and reduce the damange(Turret, tesla,acid tube, hive), its more for fun factor : ).
about turret,it would have some inaccurate(like half life, Team Fortress, Natural selection..)
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Yeah, it's fun to watch the goons who think they are hiding around the corner, but their legs are sticking through the wall.
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It's difficult because if you make the bbox the size of all the goon's legs you can have shots that look like they totally missed become hits. Boxes as collision models for "wiry" objects has some drawbacks.
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Can you have different bboxes for hit detection and collision detection?
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Even if you can have a different hitbox and bbox (which I believe you can, as someone mentioned in a discussion about crouching), "realistically" the goons legs could and would, in most situations, just pull closer to the body, making it functionally smaller. Tarantulas do this, and spiders that live in holes are able to live in the spaces they do because of this. It would be just as silly to watch a goon stop a pounce in midair because the tip of his leg (or worse, something under/above his leg) touched a wall/pipe/whatever. If you want it to look more "real" than it is currently, you're talking animations for this effect, not merely resizing bboxes. Checking to see if someone's leg has gone *through* a wall and not drawing it on the other side might be good though.
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Thinking out loud, is it possible to dynamically change the box or the movement/position of the legs dependent on movement. I.E. when the goon is moving the legs are out and the bbox and/or hit box is out. When the goon has stopped the legs come closer to the body, the bbox and/or the hitbox comes closer to the body too. This raises a question of what to do with pouncing. I would imagine that the legs would be out in a ready pose
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Ok, here I come to wreck the day..... Oh well...
I have played 1.2... Sorry but I have seen the same type of changes done with servers running different QVM's etc... Not worth labeling it a newer version of Trem.
A new version of trem should be more than just a few sound changes, a little different physics, and removal of the retard hovel. If I was the devs I would have looked for a way to revitalize Trem... I have seen suggestions ranging from flying aliens to vehicles for humans... With the new engines available or soon to be available this should be a priority.
Trem should be able to compete with these newest FPS games out there, (I know it is Open Source, but have people even paid attention to things like the size of the trem community? The amount of sites that used to be dedicated to Trem disappearing? )
Ya I know, there will be people sit here and say Im stupid.. etc... Go on ahead... I still love Trem regardless of what you say about me... I play 1.1 and have never gone back to 1.2.. Hence... This post.
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Ok, here I come to wreck the day..... Oh well...
I have played 1.2... Sorry but I have seen the same type of changes done with servers running different QVM's etc... Not worth labeling it a newer version of Trem.
A new version of trem should be more than just a few sound changes, a little different physics, and removal of the retard hovel. If I was the devs I would have looked for a way to revitalize Trem... I have seen suggestions ranging from flying aliens to vehicles for humans... With the new engines available or soon to be available this should be a priority.
Trem should be able to compete with these newest FPS games out there, (I know it is Open Source, but have people even paid attention to things like the size of the trem community? The amount of sites that used to be dedicated to Trem disappearing? )
Ya I know, there will be people sit here and say Im stupid.. etc... Go on ahead... I still love Trem regardless of what you say about me... I play 1.1 and have never gone back to 1.2.. Hence... This post.
His inability to read is what amuses me. Lucifer, do you EVER read what you're downloading? Tremulous 1.2 is currently in BETA. If you've done ANY crawling around on the forums, you'd notice stannum's new current model animations. (Alien legs, human guns, new reload animations.)
So tell me what they have to do, *cough* aside from ditch some 1.2 gameplay settings *cough* to get a new tremulous community?
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So tell me what they have to do, *cough* aside from ditch some 1.2 gameplay settings *cough* to get a new tremulous community?
First of all as far as my inability to read? Please.. I spend my time on things I feel more important to Trem. But thats besides the point...
To reach a broader audience they need to include other aspects of this type of a game. Vehicles, flying aliens, aliens with intelligence enough to hold a weapon, a greater variance of base defense... Air support, walls, pillboxes etc...
The point is that many games are using those things and their player base is exploding. I understand that we are limited to Quake 3, but there has got to be more advanced engines available..
So 1.2 is a beta huh? Ok, well usually the finished product has some things taken OUT of the beta. Beta means only that they are putting the finishing touches... NOT revamping the system.. Sorry but scripting changes, a little different sounds... Physics changes etc.... That is not a New version... Maybe an Update patch... thats all...
I have been into games for 12 years and a new version generally is totally different than the prior one. We can do what Darklegion is doing on a server... Maps, graphics, physics, etc can all be changed by any coder/mapper/modder/etc.
So fine. You can like 1.2 all you want.. I dont care. All I am saying is that unless the game designers make trem new again it WILL die.. Maybe not in 2010, but as soon as a open source game comes out with all the things people are actually wanting.. Trem will be in the halls of rarely played games, necroed sites and dead servers...
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btw technically it isn't 1.2 beta its 1.2 gpp(gameplay preview) the gameplay preview is so devs can get the balance right before moving to beta where the goal would be getting rid of bugs/etc that might have slipped past instead of fixing gameplay/balance issues.
trem doesnt need fancy things like Vehicles hell the maps that trem uses are not built for that im sure the engine could prob handle it if anyone wanted to code it in but why would there be a tank/truck/whatever in a small spacestation i think what trem has right now is more then enough and all that is needed is a fresh look and various balance fixes to bring in more players(which they have been working on/already made for 1.2 anyway)
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1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0
and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.
Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1
I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?
Also, what slacker said.
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1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0
and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.
Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1
I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?
Also, what slacker said.
???
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1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0
and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.
Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1
I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?
Also, what slacker said.
Ok, first of all, I have said it before and I will say it again...
1. An Update is NOT a totally different game... Tweaked yes... Totally different, NO
2. Aliens with guns, machines, etc, makes for an even more interesting game... But its not my biggest concern.
3. You have never seen me in game? And your point? I tried 1.2 a while back and hated it... Why would you see me there? Moron... Read what I write, not what you think I am saying...
4. As far as talking like a big shot, you must be something special... I am not too active on these forums because I have more important things to do where I am helping keep trem popular. I am always active there, and we are more popular than any other server.. But what do I know? Your A spork... OOOO I am shaking in by boots... :laugh:
trem doesnt need fancy things like Vehicles hell the maps that trem uses are not built for that im sure the engine could prob handle it if anyone wanted to code it in but why would there be a tank/truck/whatever in a small spacestation
Yes I know the fact that the current maps are not feasible for vehicles, BUT adding more open maps, to change things up. possibly alien worlds or even here on Earth would take trem to a whole new level..I cant see a tank in Atcs, duh, but maps are just that, maps, and new more vehicle friendly ones could be made..
btw technically it isn't 1.2 beta its 1.2 gpp(gameplay preview) the gameplay preview is so devs can get the balance right before moving to beta where the goal would be getting rid of bugs/etc that might have slipped past instead of fixing gameplay/balance issues.
Forgot about the difference between a Beta and GPP. Thanks for clearing that up..
And add what Plague Bringer Said...
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3. You have never seen me in game? And your point? I tried 1.2 a while back and hated it... Why would you see me there? Moron... Read what I write, not what you think I am saying...
Well few months ago I had to change my phone, because I've broken my old one. First days of using it were like "What? No function X?", "How do I do Y?", "WTF??!?!? That's just retarded...", "Those chinese people suck at design things...", "KURWA MAĆ". Now I love everything in my phone (except playlist items limit - now that's just retarded), and I don't plan to change it anytime soon. I hope you get the (his) point now
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Aparently lucifer666s8n has yet another set of unique perspectives on how tremulous must operate. He didn't bother to cite reasons that his suggestions should be used, and he hasn't played enough to know anything useful. The fact that some people are taking time in discourse is confusing.
Play the GPP. Then check back later!
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1) How long ago did you last play the GPP, and for how long?
2) And what server is that exactly? hmm?
3) Yes I play 1.2 most of the time now, but I still sometimes play 1.1, and I did play 1.1 before the GPP came out.
and I never said I was a big shot, I just pointed out you talked like you are one, but I've never seen you.
@Plague: I kinda mean its not a big enough change to be a 1.1 -> 2.0 change, but it's still different. Probably could of worded it better though...
Also, Side note about vehicles/bigger and more open maps, the BSP system doesn't work as well for outdoors, its better at indoors AFAIK.
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hey lucifer, instead of posting something that came out of your head seconds after some X-Server noob player pwned you, how about you create a giant document suggesting future changes Tremulous can make, along with alien blueprints, their information,statistics, and their habits and personality.
I myself am (kinda) working on a Tremulous documentary (yes, I have a table of contents and currently 5 full descriptive chapters, along with images).
Even though I doubt it will come to fruition since it is highly unlikely Norfenstein has the mental capacity to handle reading a NOVEL online. Still, we humans live on hope (to no fruition) so I shall do it anyways. That's along with my other things i'm working on, currently over 11 projects going back and forth.
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Can't you just, uh, stick to your word and leave?
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hey lucifer, instead of posting something that came out of your head seconds after some X-Server noob player pwned you, how about you create a giant document suggesting future changes Tremulous can make, along with alien blueprints, their information,statistics, and their habits and personality.
I myself am (kinda) working on a Tremulous documentary (yes, I have a table of contents and currently 5 full descriptive chapters, along with images).
Even though I doubt it will come to fruition since it is highly unlikely Norfenstein has the mental capacity to handle reading a NOVEL online. Still, we humans live on hope (to no fruition) so I shall do it anyways. That's along with my other things i'm working on, currently over 11 projects going back and forth.
Trem makes for some good fan fiction, like Freelancer did. I read all of them.
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1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0
and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.
Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1
I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?
Also, what slacker said.
???
+1
i lol'd
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1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0
and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.
Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1
I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?
Also, what slacker said.
???
+1
i lol'd
It made perfect sense to me. I don't know why so many people are confused about it.
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Oh good, I'm not the only one that made sense to...
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Most new things are awesome - great job, You're awesome!
1. Good drech player < moderate rifle. ATCS hallway 4 vs 4 ie:
4 rifles camp 4 dreches rush - verrry onesided - 9/10 dreches die. They move forward and camp single acid ramp in alien base - worse than 1.1 with pulse and md.
Either more damage from drech --- or --- Make drech hitbox smaller and drech strafe faster --- or --- more rifle spread.
2. Chaingun - add either a spinup --- or --- more spread - its too powerfull now, even without Bsuit. Now its a rifle with 300 ammo in clip, accurate, good damage, no reload.
3. Luci - speed of charged shot - slow it down. What do You use to kill luci now when in close range its impossible to avoid the shot? Canceling shots with secondary fire is not needed. Makes luci too powerfull with 135 ammo in 1.1.
4. Goon is awesome, althou a bit slower i think. Is the pounce slower than in 1.1? Whats the damage now?
5. Is acid weaker? The tube I mean :)
6. Hive is very deadly now - at last its usefull.
7. Mara with zap is awesome.
8. Slower regen adds new layers to aliens - esp to goon. Good move.
9. 150 bp is good.
10. Hovel isn't needed anymore.
The game play is interesting for humans now - repeater at s1, new rets, spacious bases, half map control. Aliens tend to camp more than humans now. In 1.1 aliens dominated s1, humans s2. Nowdays humans dominate s1 (rifle, shot, chain, psaw), are deadly at s2 and get fastluci in s3.
What is aliens situation now?
Weaker dreches in s1 => less goons in s1 => slower s2 => faster s2 for humans => slow crawling by adv mara and goon till s3 => s3 with rants that are designed for rushing mass rets, but now have 50hp and less range than bsuit with psaw rushing om.
Aliens NEED good teamplay now. Mara zaps and weakens, goon finishes off, lisk heals, adv goon snipes rets to ease rushing by rant. No more pouncing along humans base at ATCS (ledge) for easy kills.
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Nice points, some things I commented:
Most new things are awesome - great job, You're awesome!
1. Good drech player < moderate rifle. ATCS hallway 4 vs 4 ie:
4 rifles camp 4 dreches rush - verrry onesided - 9/10 dreches die. They move forward and camp single acid ramp in alien base - worse than 1.1 with pulse and md.
Either more damage from drech --- or --- Make drech hitbox smaller and drech strafe faster --- or --- more rifle spread.
Making the dretch hitbox smaller and a HP increase should suffice.
5. Is acid weaker? The tube I mean :)
Acid tube could have more damage anyways.
The game play is interesting for humans now - repeater at s1, new rets, spacious bases, half map control. Aliens tend to camp more than humans now. In 1.1 aliens dominated s1, humans s2. Nowdays humans dominate s1 (rifle, shot, chain, psaw), are deadly at s2 and get fastluci in s3.
What is aliens situation now?
Weaker dreches in s1 => less goons in s1 => slower s2 => faster s2 for humans => slow crawling by adv mara and goon till s3 => s3 with rants that are designed for rushing mass rets, but now have 50hp and less range than bsuit with psaw rushing om.
Aliens NEED good teamplay now. Mara zaps and weakens, goon finishes off, lisk heals, adv goon snipes rets to ease rushing by rant. No more pouncing along humans base at ATCS (ledge) for easy kills.
Aliens are maybe too weak now. In terms of balance they probably do fine but with some teamwork from the human team the game is mainly played inside the alien's base and is too damn hard for aliens. With even teams, both able to use teamwork, aliens would lose 80% of the time. I really like the new mara and goon but dretch and tyrant are not strong enough which makes alien gameplay very hard without camping somewhere. With a decent teamwork from the human team it is almost impossible to survive with those two classes. For aliens stage 3 isn't even worth waiting for. It mainly offers hive, tyrant isn't usually worth using since it's a great alien 1v1 but with two or more humans you're just too big of a target, less mobile than other aliens, running away from a fight is painful compared to other aliens.
Boosting tyrant and dretch would make the teams more even. No idea about overall balance.
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I've said it before: dretches dieing in ATCS hallway camp doesn't mean dretches are weaker then rifles, it means humans can use camp as a valid tactic and there is nothing aliens can do about it. If dretches camped at a corner and humans attacked that, they would have a lot more trouble killing the dretches. Add domination and dretches won't have to sacrifice themselves for a small hope of getting an evo while humans comfortably sit in 1 place, knowing aliens can't touch 'em.
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an easy way to balance the game:
add some/more inaculate in weapons(rifle,lgun,chaigun,prifle,mdriver,lccanon(secundary fire)..), very precise weapons is kind of unrealistic(lgun,mdriver,prifle,turret..).
about dreatch and tt, add more heath : )
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Oh good, I'm not the only one that made sense to...
It made sense. I was just being a prick. ::)
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>.>
</3
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I've said it before: dretches dieing in ATCS hallway camp doesn't mean dretches are weaker then rifles, it means humans can use camp as a valid tactic and there is nothing aliens can do about it. If dretches camped at a corner and humans attacked that, they would have a lot more trouble killing the dretches. Add domination and dretches won't have to sacrifice themselves for a small hope of getting an evo while humans comfortably sit in 1 place, knowing aliens can't touch 'em.
Lol - camping as a valid tactic....
Hallway camp ok, no rets, but thats not "camping".
Drech +10hp or higher damage.
I just got back from funzone/ uncreation.
Humie rushes - camp in our alien entrence and we're dead, cos drech<<<rifle.
They get s2, were all dreches.
gg
I understand Unique that you are a good player, but ffs cornercap drech is still a dead one vs decent rifle.
1.2 iritates me. Balance it ffs coz none will play unbalanced release. Like now. You need far better players in alien team to win over medicore humies. Psaw, rifle, pulse, chain, fastluci. Cmon change it!!!
AS3 gives hive only, coz rant is usless. Change it.
edit.
Most games involves random ppl. Most of time they go human, beacuse it's easier to play and allows camp and random ppl are either afraid to go out (oh look i get free creds, i just sit on ret and camp for more creds) or thay are just plain cowards (oh noes, its a big brown bug i cant hit it, lemme sit on ret so it kills it).
Heres what happens:
1. more ppl in human team
2. camp
3. more forward camp.
4. hs2, roles switch - alien camp (hard camp or gg)
5. humies spray pulse or chain, nade&psaw
5. aliens camp, get cornered in their base by forward human base
6. hs3 - fastluci/bsuit and psaw/bsuit/nade.
7. gg
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I don't think teams are unbalanced at all, I find 1.2 to be far better balanced than 1.1 right now IMHO.
Also, ret kills don't give hummies creds, and aliens also get timed evos as well.
Also, using atcs is a bad example IMHO, as it's not at all a balanced map.
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Camping for credits is pointless now, as death doesn't restart the clock.
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1.2 iritates me. Balance it ffs coz none will play unbalanced release. Like now. You need far better players in alien team to win over medicore humies.
You are very wrong about no one playing an unbalanced release, because many people still play 1.1.
If you look at the statistics, the amount of human wins to alien wins in 1.2 is so close to being the same it's amazing. I think you just might be so used to the alien biased 1.1 to notice that the humans winning more is actually balancing the game, not unbalancing it.
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If you look at the statistics, the amount of human wins to alien wins in 1.2 is so close to being the same it's amazing. I think you just might be so used to the alien biased 1.1 to notice that the humans winning more is actually balancing the game, not unbalancing it.
lol, You're probably right about aliens being stronger in 1.1.
btw - I don't know if ATCS is not well balanced but it for sure is most popular.
Maybe we need to learn to play 1.2 aliens different than 1.1 aliens.
From today.
AS3 vs HS3, nano.
Humies chainsuits (few of them) camp on rets (literally) in human default guarded by teslas. I rage-insult humans for "camp all time". Some guy tells me to stop yelling and to "find a way to overcome(...)" humans capming.
Some granger builds forward egg with 2 hives above human exin on second floor in center map area. Humans yell - cornercamp.
So how do I do it?
Mara zaps once and dies from chainsuit chasing.
Goon snipes 1 ret, 1 barb left, retreat to get one more barb, comes back, ret is rebuilded.
Rant charges in, gets killed instantly.
Maybe im not a pro, but ffs Trem needs something to discourege camping. Its boring. Humans can camp, aliens have to. Do something with it.
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That what the slow rets are for, so dretches can score a few hits before they die, making ret camping useless. I rarely see camping anymore, except in heavy defense situations whee hummies are being overun.
And atcs doesn't seem to be near as popular in 1.2 as in 1.1
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Nano is a bit human bias as well. And there is no point in yelling camp or even responding to those who yell it. Some people camp, some people don't. It's part of the game.
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when is 1.2 gun mods come out omg i can't wait anymore omg :battlesuit: = :egg:
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From today.
AS3 vs HS3, nano.
Humies chainsuits (few of them) camp on rets (literally) in human default guarded by teslas. I rage-insult humans for "camp all time". Some guy tells me to stop yelling and to "find a way to overcome(...)" humans camping.
I'm not a great player, but perhaps I may be able to shed some light on this.
Some granger builds forward egg with 2 hives above human exin on second floor in center map area. Humans yell - cornercamp.
An excellent way to overcome humans sitting in base is to build them in. Egg+hive (or two)+booster can give your team the platform it needs to attack, and keeps the humans camping (fruitlessly). The danger here is to make sure that everyone doesn't run out of evos because this will give the humans the opportunity to make a rush themselves (so if you can, keep a stack of 5 or so yourself just in case).
This works with aliens (usually tyrants) camping in base as well, though you have to be very careful that people don't completely abandon your RC for the forward. It works better on maps like niveus (sp?) where the alien base will often end up having only one exit/entrance.
Mara zaps once and dies from chainsuit chasing.
Goon snipes 1 ret, 1 barb left, retreat to get one more barb, comes back, ret is rebuilded.
Rant charges in, gets killed instantly.
The utility of the mara is situational, and in many bases is a one-way trip. Depending on how far you were chased, it may not have had to be that way. Rants are very useful to keep the humans in their base when you don't want them to go out. With the goon+, the ret may have been rebuilded, yes, but the humans are less at least 6bp (build points). Snipe the ret again! The human base will get continually weaker as the bp queue slowly gives them back one bp at a time. At least until you can get a proper mara+ rush going.
Rant's generally don't to a great job of taking out bases themselves (but are invaluable support for the success of goons and maras).
Maybe im not a pro, but ffs Trem needs something to discourage camping. Its boring. Humans can camp, aliens have to. Do something with it.
Perhaps I'm the odd one out here, but I don't find many camping situations to be boring. Firstly, a team camps when the other team tells them to. The other team has pushed them back into their base, and they cannot get out. If they were to go out and attack, they would be slaughtered. In the mean time the other team usually *is* trying to eliminate the base and the bp queue is getting steadily longer. I frantically grab a ckit and try to repair and build and fight all at the same time in a desperate effort for survival. You just can't plug all of the holes.
Now, fighting in (a good) base grants an advantage. Because the attacking team is stronger than the other camping team, fighting in and near base can give them a more equal or even advantageous battlefield. (IMO) Utterly pwning people is generally not as fun as winning a hard won battle or especially a comeback. It is difficult to get teams that are perfectly evenly matched, camping provides a buffer that allows teams that are slightly weaker to survive, especially if they are down a stage. And if the team can get it back together and make a rush of their own, then camping has served its purpose for the good of the game.
Furthermore like the lack of the share command, camping helps contribute to a certain feature of tremulous that I very much enjoy: in general one player cannot win the game on his or her own. Killwhoring is easy, any good player can do that. Attacking a well-defended, decently-built base is very, very hard to do without help. Try it yourself. Get a bunch of people together, go to devmap, make both teams s3, take a good built base, stick a pair of chainsuits and a ckit or two on it (or a pair of tyrants), and give yourself unlimited evos and 15 minutes to kill the base (feel free to bankrupt the defenders in the process if you can). You'll probably just be feeding. You need to get people to work together in a way that you do not in a mere deathmatch style game. This is what I like so much about tremulous.
For this reason I think the outright elimination of camping (even if it is possible without changing the basic nature of tremulous) is folly. Camping is a valid tactic, just like RC hopping and psaw rushing. Could the effectiveness of camping be lessened? It certainly has since 1.1 IMO. And that was a good thing because:
There is a situation in which camping can create an impasse, where neither team can even properly *attempt* to make any headway if there is not enough teamwork on either side to overcome the defensive and killwhoring efforts. I believe this tends to happen in games where there is a great skill gap between the few (perhaps one) best players of each team and the masses. If camping is too effective, then this would happen, and I *might* get bored (though I was still learning a lot about the game when I was in 1.1). I don't believe this is the case for gpp right now. Games that stall like this end either in sudden death or in the timelimit being hit. According to Phase 4 statistics, 22% of games ended in s3 vs s3, and only 10% of games ended in sudden death.
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Hmmmm.........
So far it seems balanced,
Nano is human biased and there should be a revised version that has a third base location that's better than the default.
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After some heavy bitching for a month straight about unbalance and stuff I came to this conclusion:
1.2 is balanced (excluding few points below) provided teams play as a team. Thats it.
Now, provided we have some/any balance on teamskill there are:
1. Drech is too weak, dies fast so humans go s2 quicker with even teams. Cornercamp, sneaking, ambush etc doesn't help really, when You die from a sigle click burst, cos' accidently You were in his crosshair when he clicked. Also - drech now is better against luci than it was in 1.1. Less area damage from luci?
2. Chain is far too accurate for its power. Chainsuit vs everything else, with equal players - only rant can kill it. Chainsuit can block goon pounce for long enough to kill it. Mara can't zap fast enough, cos at medium range chain can kill it too. So You spot a chainsuit and either zap and hide (chain being highvalue will run to medi) or You run without zapping. I'm not even mentioning lisk.
3. S3 now is hive, not rant. Rant can only cornercamp to drain credits from humans to allow sniping and zapping easier. Sitting on booster near OM to absorb lucishots is a good place for rant too.
Lisk grab range being smaller than bite is good.
Lucishot isin't too fast.
Also it would be nice to bring back luci charge sounds back. I can't tell if some dude with luci is gonna shoot or not wlile im trying to assist him. I tk and bleed many ppl beacuse of this, they have no warning.
PS. 1.2 is also more fun than 1.1. It seems "deeper", more thoughtfull than 1.1.
And again - thank You developers, great job!
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1. Drech is too weak, dies fast so humans go s2 quicker with even teams. Cornercamp, sneaking, ambush etc doesn't help really, when You die from a sigle click burst, cos' accidently You were in his crosshair when he clicked. Also - drech now is better against luci than it was in 1.1. Less area damage from luci?
The dretch is weaker, but the new poison makes it very useful against s2 and such. Also, since the luci charge takes longer, dretches are more effective against them now.
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Dretch is probably fine as it is, the root problem is that it just gives hummies waaaay too much $$$ when they kill it.
Rant is okay-ish, overpowered really if you have spotless ping. My ping sucks so I always whined about it.
PS. 1.2 is also more fun than 1.1. It seems "deeper", more thoughtfull than 1.1.
Are you feeling.....well?
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1. Drech is too weak, dies fast so humans go s2 quicker with even teams. Cornercamp, sneaking, ambush etc doesn't help really, when You die from a sigle click burst, cos' accidently You were in his crosshair when he clicked. Also - drech now is better against luci than it was in 1.1. Less area damage from luci?
The dretch is weaker, but the new poison makes it very useful against s2 and such. Also, since the luci charge takes longer, dretches are more effective against them now.
Being effective 1/10 of the situations in the game isn't much of a help when most of the fighting happens with rifles, lasguns and chainguns which all are guaranteed dretch-killers.
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I hardly think "1/10" is an accurate assessment. Not everyone are experts with those weapons.
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[R]ifles, lasguns and chainguns [all] are guaranteed dretch-killers.
Really? Considering that *all* combat is rifles vs. dretches at the beginning of the game, I find this a little hard to believe. Furthermore I don't think chainguns should be in this category. Chainsuits perhaps, but most *suits are rather difficult to dretch. The inaccuracy of the chaingun means the dretch almost always dies at near point-blank range. The only place where you have a point is the lasgun. Even then, part of the nice thing about dretches is that they aren't the human's priority targets when a dragoon is trying to kill the them. You can get decent damage on just about anything (you may not actually make the kill, but you'll get evos) in this manner
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I hardly think "1/10" is an accurate assessment. Not everyone are experts with those weapons.
Don't need an expert to kill a dretch in one second, it's way too easy. Sure it's easy to dretch those newbies who don't even move when you bite them.
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Maybe dretches that are running in a straight line on the ground, but those who know anything about the game use some kind of movement to try and dodge gunfire. If rifles, lasguns, and chains were guaranteed dretch killers, humans would win at the beginning of the game every time, no?
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The inaccuracy of the chaingun means the dretch almost always dies at near point-blank range.
I've found that to be quite true, unless it's Meisseli holding the chaingun ::) Maybe your opinion is a little biased considering your skill level, I've found most other players much easier to reach with dretch, but then again maybe I only manage that because of my dretch skills...
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Maybe dretches that are running in a straight line on the ground, but those who know anything about the game use some kind of movement to try and dodge gunfire. If rifles, lasguns, and chains were guaranteed dretch killers, humans would win at the beginning of the game every time, no?
Maybe I am exaggerating too much - but dretch is very easy to die with and requires always corners. A lot of games happen that the dretches have no chance against a good rifle team. Why the game doesn't end in the beginning - it's harder to kill buildings with rifles. A lot of nano games happen to be lasgun rushes though.
Was discussing the changes again yesterday in European server - came to the conclusion that +5-10 hp dretch, +50 hp tyrant, better DC and basi gas would make Trem awesome, in my opinion. Now it is really good already :)
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I don't think I've mentioned this, but you reminded me: what about thickening, as well as increasing the hang time(and maybe the area) of basi gas? Make it so it could almost double as a smokescreen. Would add an interesting aspect to it IMHO.
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Hmm, but that would mean people effected by basi gass can't see, can't aim, and can't run away.
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I was thinking more of it as an escape tactic, so basi can gas and flee, so its harder to hit him...
I was thinking make it more like a fog, not quite as thin as it is right now, not so much about effecting those it gets.
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the animation can be removed entirely with a cvar atm.
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Hmm, but that would mean people effected by basi gass can't see, can't aim, and can't run away.
Yeah, but you could give it an insanely long repeat, like one gas every 20-30 seconds.
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Wouldn't it be a good idea to create one thread for each issue??
I suggest a separate forum about 1.2 balance changes to be created in which one issue go to one topic, for example:
The Dretch - Too weak
Defense Computer - Not doing enough
It would be much easier following different discussions rather than them being split between five "GPP Phase X" threads, this one, a whole bunch of "Persons X's opinion after playing Y hours", etc.
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That's what the feedback forum is for :)
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That's what the feedback forum is for :)
Basically they make forum discussions difficult to keep track of, and find, in order to keep unintelligent trolls and other nefarious mutanoids away from the important stuffs in the tremufloss community. That way the smart people don't need to make a novel about their idea on how to improve tremunests, and get a response back from 1.2SUCKSNINETHOUSAND saying "lol wut dat you say dawg, get some pussay plez man. no lief DooD"
and thus, he would be stealing MY Trolling job in this Tremulous community.
Hells would be very mad. >:(
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You aren't trolling, you are making a fool out of yourself trying. :/
I suggest taking it easy, and coming back after finding your missing marbles.
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You aren't trolling, you are making a fool out of yourself trying. :/
I suggest taking it easy, and coming back after finding your missing marbles.
You're lucky this forum is my only place for entertainment, otherwise i'd say some very mean things which i'd get banned for.
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Don't strain yourself.
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Don't stroke yourself.
Too late.
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way2funny
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i think that in 1.1 aliens is far stronger than human already...
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I dunno, only problem(s) I have atm is with the shotgun vs. dretch and the dretch's strafe speed. But, I think those issues have already been brought up. :P
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i think that in 1.1 aliens is far stronger than human already...
In match atleast 6vs6 and similar skilled players?
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1.1 is very balanced, its more map dependant than anything. Heres some statistics from Aussie Assault, 24 player max server
1. atcs
Times Played: 5228
Alien Wins: 2380 (45.5%)
Human Wins: 2691 (51.5%)
Draws: 157 (3%)
Avg. Game Length: 22:43
2. tremor
Times Played: 1820
Alien Wins: 696 (38.2%)
Human Wins: 1087 (59.7%)
Draws: 37 (2%)
Avg. Game Length: 16:20
4. niveus
Times Played: 1224
Alien Wins: 638 (52.1%)
Human Wins: 565 (46.2%)
Draws: 21 (1.7%)
Avg. Game Length: 18:18
5. karith
Times Played: 883
Alien Wins: 549 (62.2%)
Human Wins: 296 (33.5%)
Draws: 38 (4.3%)
Avg. Game Length: 22:46
8. nexus6
Times Played: 622
Alien Wins: 334 (53.7%)
Human Wins: 254 (40.8%)
Draws: 34 (5.5%)
Avg. Game Length: 22:19
10. arachnid2
Times Played: 547
Alien Wins: 336 (61.4%)
Human Wins: 185 (33.8%)
Draws: 26 (4.8%)
Avg. Game Length: 19:08
Basically, the smaller a map is, the more even it is. The larger it becomes, the more alien bias it becomes. The more open and straight it is the more human bias.
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1.1 is very balanced, its more map dependant than anything. Heres some statistics from Aussie Assault, 24 player max server
...
Basically, the smaller a map is, the more even it is. The larger it becomes, the more alien bias it becomes. The more open and straight it is the more human bias.
Sorry nubcake, here I have to disagree with you (we may have to agree to disagree) If the game (as a whole) was balanced it wouldn't matter the size of the map. The win/loss stats of procyon should be the same as atcs. What I am talking about?... take UrT, the sides are equal to the point that the only serious difference is the color, everything is else is the same. The only thing in that game that can tilt the outcome is the skill of the individuals. Ergo, UrT is balanced, it wouldn't matter what size map u're playing the stats would show it's balanced. The fact that trem is a game where the stats are affected by map size points only to the fact that the game play is biased in favor of the aliens.
I agree with you about the openness of the maps some are way too open and humans totally win, but this is more to do with the contrasting style of fighting between the two teams. This is where maps need to be closely designed to offer two paths, one open and one that offers protection for the aliens. The team that can command their path the best will obviously be the dominate team.
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I have to agree that the larger the map, the more it favors the aliens, but smaller maps are more human biased, not more balanced. Or in other words, the further the 2 bases are from each other, the better for aliens. Which is why humans should always when possible move their base towards the middle of the map and/or make an outpost near aliens, and the aliens should move further if possible. Also, once again, Procyon is not that big :( the distances between bases are very similar to niveus/nexus6/karith, sometimes even smaller.
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1.1 is very balanced, its more map dependant than anything. Heres some statistics from Aussie Assault, 24 player max server
...
Basically, the smaller a map is, the more even it is. The larger it becomes, the more alien bias it becomes. The more open and straight it is the more human bias.
Sorry nubcake, here I have to disagree with you (we may have to agree to disagree) If the game (as a whole) was balanced it wouldn't matter the size of the map. The win/loss stats of procyon should be the same as atcs. What I am talking about?... take UrT, the sides are equal to the point that the only serious difference is the color, everything is else is the same. The only thing in that game that can tilt the outcome is the skill of the individuals. Ergo, UrT is balanced, it wouldn't matter what size map u're playing the stats would show it's balanced. The fact that trem is a game where the stats are affected by map size points only to the fact that the game play is biased in favor of the aliens.
I agree with you about the openness of the maps some are way too open and humans totally win, but this is more to do with the contrasting style of fighting between the two teams. This is where maps need to be closely designed to offer two paths, one open and one that offers protection for the aliens. The team that can command their path the best will obviously be the dominate team.
Comparing Tremulous to a game with two teams exactly the same is quite a feat. It almost sounds like you want Tremulous to evolve to a game with two identical teams.
Map size yes tilts the balance. That's normal. Humans should have a base as close to aliens as possible, and vice versa for aliens.
But there's a lot more to it than map size too. Nano has really challenging corridors for aliens for example, and worse base than in ATCS for example. Good maps are made balanced with small tricks, like you said.
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Comparing Tremulous to a game with two teams exactly the same is quite a feat. It almost sounds like you want Tremulous to evolve to a game with two identical teams...
Sorry, but that's not what I was trying to get at, not at all. Merely that imho well balanced gameplay on maps that are decently design should be balanced regardless of size. This is not what we find in Trem 1.1
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Comparing Tremulous to a game with two teams exactly the same is quite a feat. It almost sounds like you want Tremulous to evolve to a game with two identical teams...
Sorry, but that's not what I was trying to get at, not at all. Merely that imho well balanced gameplay on maps that are decently design should be balanced regardless of size. This is not what we find in Trem 1.1
I see, but yeah, that's a hard thing to pull off. I'd say it's easier if mappers do balanced maps by testing them and looking at the stats.
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I see, but yeah, that's a hard thing to pull off. I'd say it's easier if mappers do balanced maps by testing them and looking at the stats.
I think/hope that Norfenstein has made an effort to balance out the game play for 1.2 so that the bias is not related to map size.. I could be totally wrong since I haven't played the GPP much.
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AFAIK the balance is pretty good regardless of map size, unless it's blatantly biased as a map towards 1 team(librelous anyone?)
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I see, but yeah, that's a hard thing to pull off. I'd say it's easier if mappers do balanced maps by testing them and looking at the stats.
I think/hope that Norfenstein has made an effort to balance out the game play for 1.2 so that the bias is not related to map size.. I could be totally wrong since I haven't played the GPP much.
Well you're talking as if there is no way for a mapper to compensate for map size. Of course map size will effect map balance somewhat, but that is by far not the most important issue to consider. Consider hallway size, for instance.
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I think/hope that Norfenstein has made an effort to balance out the game play for 1.2 so that the bias is not related to map size.. I could be totally wrong since I haven't played the GPP much.
Correct, and it was a very high priority for me. The repeater change, for instance, was something I felt had to be done in order for large maps to be playable, and making aliens more dependent on their bases (mostly via the regen change) was also partially because of this.
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The Repeaters are nice for this..
Each repeater gives you 20 BP.
Now do 3 repeaters somewhere and you can have a beefy outpost and have a strong main base.
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Correct, and it was a very high priority for me. The repeater change, for instance, was something I felt had to be done in order for large maps to be playable, and making aliens more dependent on their bases (mostly via the regen change) was also partially because of this.
WOOHOO!!!!! I WAS RIGHT!! :D (lol)
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Yeah, but you could give it an insanely long repeat, like one gas every 20-30 seconds.
It doesn't matter. All such effects (basi gas, fatigue etc.) are purely client-side and can be removed, either by cvar or hacked client.
Point being, if you make an effect that's annoying enough, people will have an incentive to hack it off in the client.
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Yeah, but you could give it an insanely long repeat, like one gas every 20-30 seconds.
It doesn't matter. All such effects (basi gas, fatigue etc.) are purely client-side and can be removed, either by cvar or hacked client.
Point being, if you make an effect that's annoying enough, people will have an incentive to hack it off in the client.
Then server operators should have the option to scan everyone's tremulous client files upon connection to the server, to see if they've been tampered with. All major MMO's do this to prevent such occurences of cheating.
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that's basically impossible in open source games.
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that's basically impossible in open source games.
I think it could be done. Maybe you could elect to scan just the files most often messed with.
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I think scanning my computer is not a good idea anyways. Some people call such programs spyware, too.
Open source means, Conzul, that a mod/hack or so to disable your scan will be made in no time.
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There's also the privacy issue. I don't want to give a game server access to my entire computer.
Cheaters will circumvent it and cheat anyway.
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There's also the privacy issue. I don't want to give a game server access to my entire computer.
Cheaters will circumvent it and cheat anyway.
ever played a game with clientside anticheat like punkbuster or whatever steam uses they have that kinda of access already and god knows what they send back for their own end they prob have your entire browsing history in some database all your emails everything youll never know cause they are closed source
anyway i think anticheat should always be server-side its harder to do but much harder to bypass
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ever played a game with clientside anticheat like punkbuster or whatever steam uses they have that kinda of access already and god knows what they send back for their own end they prob have your entire browsing history in some database all your emails everything youll never know cause they are closed source
anyway i think anticheat should always be server-side its harder to do but much harder to bypass
I don't play those games.
And of course you can find out, just check which files they access.
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That's BS. You know this is a major argument against Open Source. There are different levels of hackers. There are weekend warriors, lightweights, and dedicated MP-busters. A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source. I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly. I'm not against open source, it does many good things, but I think that Tremulous specifically is so fun that it transends open source. I'd give that up for an element of multiplayer security any day (but just with tremulous).
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That's BS. You know this is a major argument against Open Source. There are different levels of hackers. There are weekend warriors, lightweights, and dedicated MP-busters. A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source. I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly. I'm not against open source, it does many good things, but I think that Tremulous specifically is so fun that it transends open source. I'd give that up for an element of multiplayer security any day (but just with tremulous).
If I may say this: stfu conzul. A program like trem cannot be free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) or even open source with a closed source addendum. And even apart from that sentiment, if I can help it, I don't want that kind of software running on my computer at all. And with the execption of steam, I don't. And even that is only on windows which I boot into about once a month. Its a privacy issue. I'll probably make an exception for portal 2, because Valve seems to be pretty good (and portal 2 is pretty worth it anyways), at least on windows which I rarely use for anything other than valve games anyways.
I'd rather have some people who want to cheat do so (wallhack, aimbot, etc) as they do now and as they will continue to do (even if perhaps given a slightly greater advantage), than have that crap run on my machine and have my favorite game, tremulous, become non-free. A major argument against tremulous being open source this is not. Unless...no...you don't intend to make money from selling tremulous do you?
And you know very well no anticheat is flawless.
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Being free he can make money from it. Were it non-free only the dev would be able to make money from it.
Also, adding something closed source would be illegal. Go read the GPL.
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I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly.
Hahahaha. You aren't serious with this one?
Perhaps you should first know how gas works. In fact, you aim constantly at the same point you used to before. It's just graphics to make your view distorted, not your aim. It is really easy to shoot you regardless of the gas when you know what you're doing.
A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source.
White should be black and still be white?
No, things don't work like that at all.
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That's BS. You know this is a major argument against Open Source. There are different levels of hackers. There are weekend warriors, lightweights, and dedicated MP-busters. A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source. I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly. I'm not against open source, it does many good things, but I think that Tremulous specifically is so fun that it transends open source. I'd give that up for an element of multiplayer security any day (but just with tremulous).
If I may say this: stfu conzul. A program like trem cannot be free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) or even open source with a closed source addendum. And even apart from that sentiment, if I can help it, I don't want that kind of software running on my computer at all. And with the execption of steam, I don't. And even that is only on windows which I boot into about once a month. Its a privacy issue. I'll probably make an exception for portal 2, because Valve seems to be pretty good (and portal 2 is pretty worth it anyways), at least on windows which I rarely use for anything other than valve games anyways.
I'd rather have some people who want to cheat do so (wallhack, aimbot, etc) as they do now and as they will continue to do (even if perhaps given a slightly greater advantage), than have that crap run on my machine and have my favorite game, tremulous, become non-free. A major argument against tremulous being open source this is not. Unless...no...you don't intend to make money from selling tremulous do you?
And you know very well no anticheat is flawless.
Well thats where we disagree, innit?
Maybe I'll hack my client so that gass and fatigue does nothing to me. I'm glad that wouldn't bother you.
I know the difference between free beer and open source, it's all my significant other will talk about.
I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly.
Hahahaha. You aren't serious with this one?
Perhaps you should first know how gas works. In fact, you aim constantly at the same point you used to before. It's just graphics to make your view distorted, not your aim. It is really easy to shoot you regardless of the gas when you know what you're doing.
I know how it works, but it should make it harder to hit a moving target, which I am. Hell, if gass actually made your gun point in a certain way instead of clientside effects, that would be harder to mess with.
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So where are these gas and chaingun hackers you're talking about?
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You want a list? I can compile a list of likely individuals, with several weeks of play.
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You want a list? I can compile a list of likely individuals, with several weeks of play.
Make that a closed source list so we don't have to be bothered with it.
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You want a list? I can compile a list of likely individuals, with several weeks of play.
Make that a closed source list so we don't have to be bothered with it.
Heheh.
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The changes so far sound great and are well worth the wait. Don't rush the release just because of impatient non-contributors whining.
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So where are these gas and chaingun hackers you're talking about?
I've seen pretty much of them in 1.1
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I also seen people with no pounce delay as well, both in 1.1 and gpp.
What I really would like to see is server side pouncing.
https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4679
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If it can be hacked away on the client and it is reliably identified as getting abused in the wild, it should get implemented on the server side. Clean, Opensource, requires work though.
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Because people want to play tremulous, and want there to be players in the future to play with.
All this every server being different crap is stopping new people, and killing the game. I'm pushing for server to be marked on the list if they have modified gameplay, but I doubt it will happen.
So basically, stop trying to kill tremulous you arseholes.
I agree, Tremulous would be so much more alive right now if players could easily identify and play on a vanilla 1.1.0 server. *roll eyes*
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Please release the new version. Its easy for this game.
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Can the tyrant heal a little faster pls? It has a load of health to heal, which dies out quicker. Somehow, basilisk and their healing aura is faster than a rant.
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Can the tyrant heal a little faster pls? It has a load of health to heal, which dies out quicker. Somehow, basilisk and their healing aura is faster than a rant.
Ahem, 1.2?
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The fact that trem is a game where the stats are affected by map size points only to the fact that the game play is biased in favor of the aliens.
Teams in Trem are different so its only natural that the environment affects the outcome. Well, the disadvantaged team could use teamwork and tactics, but hey, lets eliminate this possibility by "balancing".
I used to play 1.1 on Amsterdam Unlimited (in fact it was the only server I played at). It featured a nice mod which some fancy additions / changes:
I remember some of them:
humans:
- proximity mines: takes 300 hp away (kills every alien except tyrant)
- bouncy ball: secondary fire mode for Lucifer cannon
- healing construction kits: ckit can be used for healing teammates and even "overload" their health to up to 120 hp
- personal defence system (pds): Battlesuits could buy and add it - it electrified near targets, which was very effective against dretches.
- burning charges: secondary fire mode for flamethrower
- deployable forcefield: blocks movement for certain time
- secondary fire mode for shotgun
aliens:
- Invisilisk: Adv. Basilisk invisibility for 4 sec (~36 sec recharge) - very effective for taking out arms/nodes when in SD and no turrets around.
- Hovelport: use two hovels to teleport between them.
- Adv. Goons can not immediately spit barbs after evolving, they had to wait some time.
- bouncy barb: Adv. Goons can use all three barbs at once to fire a "bouncy barb" which bounces off wall, ceiling, ground (therefore was hard to aim) but was able to kill a human/turret in one shot
Plus: More BP and sharing/donating on.
These additions allowed both teams, especially humans, alternative tactical approaches.
Well, after some time I wanted to play trem again. I downloaded 1.2 and atm I am a bit disappointed because I was used to the above mentioned mod and so this "beta" without those features feels like returning to stone age of Tremulous. All in all 1.2 provides some good ideas but imo too many changes. Perhaps its easier for beginners now but there is less long-term motivation.
I just wish they would use the great "amsterdam unlimited" mod as the basis of further development of Tremulous (not many changes would have been necessary though)
Sorry for bad english.
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There is a learning curve indeed. Give it some 1-2 weeks and explore the new strategies & most importantly building, and see how it goes.
Never played Amsterdam Unlimited, mainly due to the Unlimited (BP) part, and can't really say I think highly of the changes you mentioned but I don't know how they play together. 1.2 plays extremely well in my opinion though.
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I'm afraid there's no delicate way to put this, it would appear that all of the Amsterdam unlimited features you mention are a load of bollocks.
The reason trem 1.2 feels so alien is that you stopped playing trem back when you first got sucked into the pointlessly over the top mod culture of 1.1, basing 1.2 on that appalling mess would benefit no one.
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I just wish they would use the great "amsterdam unlimited" mod as the basis of further development of Tremulous (not many changes would have been necessary though)
I kind of wanted the opposite: the best "vanilla" version of Tremulous possible to give modders a balanced foundation to build from.
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I just wish they would use the great "amsterdam unlimited" mod as the basis of further development of Tremulous (not many changes would have been necessary though)
I kind of wanted the opposite: the best "vanilla" version of Tremulous possible to give modders a balanced foundation to build from.
+1 thats exactly how trem should be
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I'm afraid there's no delicate way to put this, it would appear that all of the Amsterdam unlimited features you mention are a load of bollocks.
Unlike you I played both versions so delicately bollocks yourself.
It was a lot of fun and allowed both teams a greater variety of tactics, which I miss. In case of gameplay the mentioned mod is more advanced than 1.2 (Fanboys of 1.2 - please note: I am not saying that your favourite is bad.)
There is a learning curve indeed. Give it some 1-2 weeks and explore the new strategies & most importantly building, and see how it goes.
Never played Amsterdam Unlimited, mainly due to the Unlimited (BP) part, and can't really say I think highly of the changes you mentioned but I don't know how they play together. 1.2 plays extremely well in my opinion though.
BP were limited on this server, depending on the map! (atcs was like 120 bp I think)
Actually I like the new building system, could use more bp though.
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I'm afraid there's no delicate way to put this, it would appear that all of the Amsterdam unlimited features you mention are a load of bollocks.
Unlike you I played both versions so delicately bollocks yourself.
It was a lot of fun and allowed both teams a greater variety of tactics, which I miss. In case of gameplay the mentioned mod is more advanced than 1.2 (Fanboys of 1.2 - please note: I am not saying that your favourite is bad.)
If you can pick out a good handful of features listed in your previous post which aren't just pointless gimmicky crap, please do. I've played several extensively modded versions of 1.1, with similarly silly features to those you mention, they've all had one thing in common, they're none of them a well balanced and enjoyable experience.
Anyway, norf's explained his position, there really is no point in further discussing the server and its mod in this thread at this point.
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If you can pick out a good handful of features listed in your previous post which aren't just pointless gimmicky crap, please do. I've played several extensively modded versions of 1.1, with similarly silly features to those you mention, they've all had one thing in common, they're none of them a well balanced and enjoyable experience.
Anyway, norf's explained his position, there really is no point in further discussing the server and its mod in this thread at this point.
I can assure you that all "gimmicky crap" was used, providing some tactical depth, compared to that 1.2 feels a bit "flat".
Some stories I can remember:
The healing ckit:
On karith we (humans) built in elevator-Room. In SD all buildings on the ground floor were destroyed, so Humans basically could not buy ammo and regain health fast enough (they had to take elevator which took too long or buy jetpacks which wasted creds). Aliens were already talking like "gg" to us.
Then we actually discussed the situation and the decision was made that two ppl with jetpacks and ckits should remain in base, keep a repeater up and heal ppl to 120 hp, while all other players (there were around 12 vs 12 in total) buy energy weapons (which can be reloaded at the repeater) and rush in waves.
Well, after some hard fight and teamplay we pushed back the aliens and sensationally won the game.
Invisilisk and mines:
Humans were camping to gain credits and protect their last, well hidden arm and periodically attacking us aliens, killing one egg after another while our attempts to kill their base did not prevail, especially their mines drained our stock of evos.
We were running out of evos so we made a plan: First we shared our evos, then a dretch-storm was launched where we cleaned the human base of mines. Finally everone evolved to rant, goon or mara, except two experienced players who took adv. basilisk.
The rants, goons and maras then attacked the human base but just as a distraction, so that the two basilisks could become invisible for 4 seconds and take down the last arm, which was accomplished.
Having fun with mines:
You move out nothing but a gun and a mine. Suddenly you hear the distant roar of an approaching tyrant. Hastily you stick the mine at the back of the entrance and lie in waiting, being the bait. There it moves around the corner - a hungry rant in pursue - the strongest and most dangerous of the alien hive. What a beast! Instinctively you open fire, pumping a whole clip into that massive body, but seemingly to no effect. Unimpressed the monster stares at you, recognizing you are alone, poorly armed and an easy prey. Triumphantly it roars, then charges at you, trying to smash you with one hit and teaching you a lesson not to fuck with a tyrant. You already smell the rotten breath of death but suddenly there is an explosion, the tyrant screams in agony and dies right before your feet.
A second later the chat line bursts of some "FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUU"´s, followed by rough curses and swears to take bitter revenge. You just smile and enjoy the moment.
Epic games/moments like these never gonna happen in 1.2 and this type of fun, thrill and teamwork you will never ever experience in 1.2 at this stage.
However, what I like in 1.2 so far is the faster paced and more fluent game, the less camping and the building system.
As a conclusion: For me trem 1.1 is more like a tactical game, like counterstrike 1.6 - while trem 1.2 is more like an "arcade" game, like Urban Terror. Both do have their own advantages and disadvantages.
I guess we can agree on that.
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So trem becomes more tactical if you don't just rely on your wits and strategy to exploit the classes and weapons at your disposal, but rather throw a bunch of ill thought-out and overpowered wankery into the mix? interesting, i would have thought the opposite were true...
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Healing ckit? No thank you, we have a medistation already, making it actually strategical for aliens to destroy it and poison humans, or humans to protect it rather than not need it at all!
Mines make camp a hell more effective which doesn't sound so good to my ears. The kind of distraction you talked about can be achieved without any invisible basilisks, just make tyrants rush first to take the bullets and follow with marauders for example.
Killing tyrant in the way described can also be done with a grenade, with it actually being challenging since you need to time it right!
At least those features weren't a turn-on for me nor did they seem to offer any great strategies, sorry.
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Mines, invisilisks, and heal-guns. TF2, anyone? ARCADE, anyone?
Counterstrike had weapons and classes, and people used them strategically without any mines or invisibility cloaks or medkits. And, might I add that referring to anything that includes any of those three things as "1.1" is so disingenuous it's nearly the equivalent of your parent's marriage. Or mine. Oh. :(
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I'm curious, in the rifle wielding human with concealed proxy mine vs. tyrant scenario, if the rant were to spot said mine could it then do anything to trigger or defuse the thing without incurring damage?
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As I used to play on 1.1 AU server a lot, I got to say that those features were anywhere from great, to pointless and even utter crap.
Ckit healing: Great
This added a lot to gain from teamplay, mainly since 1.1 human outposts were basically crap, and it was not overpowered in any way because you'd have 1 less player shooting at aliens. It introduced an actual support class for humans. It could also heal to 120 hp, but since you needed another player to do it for you, it encouraged working together more.
Bouncy luci/barb: great
Both added significant variety without being too powerful.
Hovelport: good
increased the usefulness of alien outposts mostly.
Invisilisk: sometimes good when humans camped (which was often since it was 1.1)
Without domination it's always possible to camp hard enough to drag out a game, however this mod changed that at least in some cases.
Shotgun secondary: sometimes useful
Flamer secondary: mostly used to spam
Forcefields: useless
Used in ~2% of games (afaik), tho they had some value if used right. May have been due to many players simply not knowing of their existence.
No barbs at evolve: bad
Even tho evolving to +goon and instantly sniping armory/rets was sometimes too good, this was the wrong way to solve it, often taking away the chance of sniping when humans were out of base.
Mines: crap
Basically being a 550 cred 1UP since it not only made no sound when dropped, it jumped at the alien triggering it, always dealing maximum damage, thus allowing you to very effectively use it in a 1vs1 fight against large aliens. There was(or is?) no way to safely detonate it without a granger. Often entire corridors could be blocked off by a single mine in the middle of the floor in plain sight until a dretch/granger came around. It did have some good uses, but those don't make up for the bad ones.
Personal Defence System (PDS): Crap, with a capital C
IF a human team manages to camp long enough to afford enough of these (600cred each, 3 max), and aliens do not have lots of funds, it guarantees a win because aliens had no reasonable means to stop rushes nor recover. Even a single fully equipped bsuit could sometimes simply stand in alien base with swarms of dretches rushing at him and have plenty of time to carefully destroy lots of buildings and sometimes even get away with it.
-
Bouncing barbs are awesome.
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Geez guys, what's with all the hate for mods? After playing tremulous for almost a decade I'm honestly starting to pine for some of those "gimmicks" to make it interesting for me again.
umca, do you know if the source code for AU is available somewhere?
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Geez guys, what's with all the hate for mods? After playing tremulous for almost a decade I'm honestly starting to pine for some of those "gimmicks" to make it interesting for me again.
umca, do you know if the source code for AU is available somewhere?
whoa shit is this a troll!!!
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I don't suppose it helps that most of my experience of mods, besides xserverx which always seemed to be played on atcs, involved lolmaps and/or stupid numbers of build points. I suppose i did enjoy tremx a little at the time but korx is anything but fun, not to mention the needless and fantastically ugly reskinning.
the only mods i've found that were actually worth playing for any length of time were the arcade mod and domination.
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Geez guys, what's with all the hate for mods? After playing tremulous for almost a decade I'm honestly starting to pine for some of those "gimmicks" to make it interesting for me again.
Coming from Mr. Balance-Changes. Anyone else find that unnerving? ::)
Not that mods are bad, though. Hell, I played Halo Custom Edition a helluva lot more than I ever played vanilla. I've had a lot of fun on uBP and, hell, HvH and X. Mods are generally aimed at creating a more extreme experience. Take BenMachine's, or again, uBP or X or HvH. Hell, SST| played nothing like vanilla. It's good to have a distinction, is all, and it's bad when people start confusing the modded experience for the vanilla experience (or vice versa).
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Geez guys, what's with all the hate for mods? After playing tremulous for almost a decade I'm honestly starting to pine for some of those "gimmicks" to make it interesting for me again.
Coming from Mr. Balance-Changes. Anyone else find that unnerving? ::)
Yes, because obviously I'm not allowed to want more than one thing at a time, and that I intend to contradict the post I made immediately before the one you quoted, as well as years of precedent in developing 1.2 because, what the hell, 1.2 should have forcefields and rubber barbs. ::)
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The hate for mods is because most of the current ones are shit, just adding more bigger guns with no thought to balance.
Things like domination and relics were good, they added without unbalancing.
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Name: Creep Bomb (should get a better name.) (Technically alien buildable landmine)
BP: 3
Stage: 3
SD: 2 on the server at once in SD
Damage: instant kill on unarmoured human, 65 on larmour and 40 on BSuit.
HP: (if shot at and killed, it wont explode) 25
Splash radius: size of RC
Knockback: as if you got hit by a lucy
Building timer: 6/8 sectors
Buildable on walls: No
Cannot TK. kills and Death's with it count on tremstats?
Message: *PlayerName* Found *playerName*'s creepbomb
*PlayerName* Thought it was a penny, by *playerName*
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The hate for mods is because most of the current ones are shit, just adding more bigger guns with no thought to balance.
Things like domination and relics were good, they added without unbalancing.
Name: Creep Bomb (should get a better name.) (Technically alien buildable landmine)
BP: 3
Stage: 3
SD: 2 on the server at once in SD
Damage: instant kill on unarmoured human, 65 on larmour and 40 on BSuit.
HP: (if shot at and killed, it wont explode) 25
Splash radius: size of RC
Knockback: as if you got hit by a lucy
Building timer: 6/8 sectors
Buildable on walls: No
Cannot TK. kills and Death's with it count on tremstats?
Message: *PlayerName* Found *playerName*'s creepbomb
*PlayerName* Thought it was a penny, by *playerName*
Read the first quote, then the second. Something's horribly wrong.
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Relics were fun & cool!
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No barbs at evolve: bad
Even tho evolving to +goon and instantly sniping armory/rets was sometimes too good, this was the wrong way to solve it, often taking away the chance of sniping when humans were out of base.
Well, you are writing primarily from an alien perspective.
However a good alien dretch/lisk/mara could just bypass the human attack, evolve to goon and kill an armory with one bouncy barb - and this all in like 3 seconds (if there was no mine to stop the goon...)
I remember this maneuver was one of your specialities. ;)
(And of course humans were knowing this which resulted in camp, so "No barbs at evolve" encouraged humans to leave base as the mentioned maneuver was not possible)
Mines: crap
Basically being a 550 cred 1UP since it not only made no sound when dropped, it jumped at the alien triggering it, always dealing maximum damage, thus allowing you to very effectively use it in a 1vs1 fight against large aliens. There was(or is?) no way to safely detonate it without a granger. Often entire corridors could be blocked off by a single mine in the middle of the floor in plain sight until a dretch/granger came around. It did have some good uses, but those don't make up for the bad ones.
Of course you are right, mines were not perfect (though I think the idea itself of humans having mines is not that bad), and for aliens a pain in the ass. A skilled luci guy would throw the mine and at the same time fire at it so it explodes, thus killing a 400 hp rant almost instantly. But as with the "No barbs at evolve" - it balanced the game.
So all in all what I would really like to see in 1.2 is Ckit healing (120 hp), Bouncy luci/barb and Hovelport.
The other stuff contains IMO some interesting ideas too (except forcefields - those were really useless)
umca, do you know if the source code for AU is available somewhere?
I was just a regular player now and then on that server (which is still on-line btw)
However UniqPhoeniX was a former admin, so perhaps he knows more. I also remember some names of other admins being Troy, Tim, Sisco, Memorex, ASD, Fr4q, revenge02, Mindedie, Little'Butterfly.
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This is kind of offtopic, but: AFAIK there are no statistics which would say whether those changes balanced the win ratio, but even if they did, they also took out a lot of skill (sometimes noob with pds / mine > pro(s) with dretches / goon/rant) and made the game more frustrating.
On some maps you just can't bypass a proper rush, and even if you do, you often lose lots of health, which means you only get to use barbs for destroying the base, and that is only if humans didn't simply leave a mine on every entrance.
Bouncy barb did 1.8x the damage (198) of normal barb (110) while costing 3 barbs, and thus was only more effective against rets/DC (medis were kind of difficult to hit with it :P) and ofc humans if you had a clear shot. The proper way to make armories less snipeable IMO was to increase it's HP like in gpp.
Another thing I didn't mention is the effect of no barbs together with mines: if you wanted to snipe, you had to evolve 20+ sec before attacking, but with mines, you either evolve after you make sure there are no mines (just before you attack) or you take the chance of losing your goon pretty much instantly.
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Goons are overpowered now. I use too eat dragoons for breakfast until a sudden warp in the galaxy and everybody is getting better with goons. Like every time They are looking another direction after pouncing at you, they instantly, instantly turn and your dead on sight. WOW its gay if you think about it. But I just wanted too share that with the community.
-
But I just wanted too share that with the community.
You are not supposed to.
Seriously.
-
Goons are overpowered now. I use too eat dragoons for breakfast until a sudden warp in the galaxy and everybody is getting better with goons. Like every time They are looking another direction after pouncing at you, they instantly, instantly turn and your dead on sight. WOW its gay if you think about it. But I just wanted too share that with the community.
Yeah a few people do tons of micro pounce.
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Goons are overpowered now. I use too eat dragoons for breakfast until a sudden warp in the galaxy and everybody is getting better with goons. Like every time They are looking another direction after pouncing at you, they instantly, instantly turn and your dead on sight. WOW its gay if you think about it. But I just wanted too share that with the community.
GOONS are overpowered. Okay, ignore the buff to humans that force goons to pounce. ???
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some things(MODS) could be added to the tremulous, like invisible lisks, but, please, not acid bombs for tt or xael team kill gun, i like more 1.1 luci(more tactical).
-
Very very exciting post it was.. You have mentioned most of the changes..DO you know latest game changes? Please share them..
-
Hello.. is anyone still playing 1.2? I don't see any servers :/
-
check out grangerhub http://forum.grangerhub.com/
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