Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: NotYarou on December 05, 2009, 06:17:57 pm
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Let's face it, there are people who are set in their ways. In order to encourage popular participation in the gpp beta, extended gametypes ought to be implemented. Initially, what this would mean is having 1.1 balance as a mod for servers running the latest SVN or gpp. Ultimately, there should be a system where server owners can toggle 1.2 balance or 1.1 balance on the fly, by having it cvar settable i.e. g_gametype 0, 1 (0 = 1.1 balance, 1 = 1.2 balance, the default). I would not mind implementing such a system, but as it is finals week I do not have time.
Now, for comments on GPP balance, or "MGDev" balance (in no particular order):
The Good:
- Reduced alien regen while not on creep. (s1 humans stand a chance against dragoon)
- Reduced tyrant hp.
- New building system.
- Basilisk healing aura, as well as silent walking.
- Nerfed turrets.
- Emoticons.
I hope my comments are taken seriously but both sides of the ongoing debate; hopefully this will suffice as a sort of compromise.
In closing, I urge all of you (yes, you), please attempt to seriously evaluate 1.2 balance and at the very least participate in the beta. Don't let tremulous go to ruin because of petty differences.
Edit: I removed Dragoon claw range and width because they really only need some minor tweaking at present...the idea of using secondary attacks is quite appealing to me. As for tyrant, I completely understand the rationale behind weakening tyrant.
- Yarou
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#deleted
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I agree with most of what is posted above. Volt, what did you mean by "spinup sound"?
Additionally: hives and stamina.
Several hives on a doorway is an instant kill. If the human has to worry about anything else, he's screwed. Overpowered slightly in strength, although the speed is fine - possible to dodge in open areas, if not tight.
Regarding the tyrant charge, I think it does do too much damage but this is mitigated for the most part by the human dodge which also makes the new goon ranges ineffective.
I find it much harder, almost impossible at times, to chase down fleeing aliens. Even without using the new dodge in a skirmish I find myself running low. Sprinting takes up too much stamina. If I have to chase a rant or fight a group I generally end up sluggish and blacking out.
As a side note, I'd like to try a few rounds with buildpoints set to 106/158 human/alien. I was originally going to call for 106/142 but I noticed the dev server is already set to 100/150.
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I find it much harder, almost impossible at times, to chase down fleeing aliens. Even without using the new dodge in a skirmish I find myself running low. Sprinting takes up too much stamina. If I have to chase a rant or fight a group I generally end up sluggish and blacking out.
Sprinting takes up less stamina in 1.2 than in 1.1. :-\
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I'm fairly sure it's the same. I was more so only remarking on how it feels, so apparently we're all going to have to learn how to watch our stamina closer.
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Krieg is absolutely right. As someone who is experienced at outmaneuvering my opponents, it didn't take long to notice that stamina is far more precious now. In the few GPP games I had yesterday, I must have nearly blacked out 15 times during combat, something that has not once happened to me once without me intentionally doing it. If anything, it could be that sprinting sideways now takes up stamina? I don't know, I didn't experiment. But in any case, I could only hold up consistent fast movement long enough to chainsuit about two rants, while I was empty on stamina come the third rant.
With that said, sprinting outside of any kind of combat is no longer a reasonable option for someone who relies on their ability to dance with their enemies. I myself have already adjusted my playing style so that I only take a few seconds of sprinting at any time that I am not shooting at something before toggling it off. Of course, the first thing I do upon seeing enemies is switch it back on.
As for the dodge move, I've gotten used to using it more, and it can be a lot of fun, but using an alien like the marauder is very difficult with someone jumping around like that. The marauder is the most awkward class, because it has such a low view height combined with the best way to use it. The old way of jumping with it could work against this new dodging, but the way it jumps now is too weighed down, and won't cut it against someone who's good at using that dodge move, no matter how well you aim combined with the new bite width.
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Yeah I hate how stamina is used up in 1.2, I too find myself blacking out a lot and it's much harder to chase down aliens. I only use sprint during fights now and I toggle it off when i stop fighting, but still black out sometimes. It was more fun when you could move around and you didn't have to worry about your stamina running out that fast.
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light armor used to have a secret bonus of halving the stamina required to sprint, norf decided to remove that. jumping/dodging takes half of what it did in 1.1 though.
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I'm starting to adapt to using secondary attacks more on aliens, so I guess I'll say that minor tweaks (increases) in claw range and claw width will improve 1.2 overall...after talking at length with Norf on some changes, I think for the most part the current working state as far as balance is concerned is as close to "perfect" as possible.
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light armor used to have a secret bonus of halving the stamina required to sprint
Nobody told me that :( Any chance of not having any secret variables/hidden modifiers in 1.2?
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Nobody told me that :( Any chance of not having any secret variables/hidden modifiers in 1.2?
Well I sure hope so, though I'm sure "secret" doesn't mean the same thing to everybody. But making Trem less esoteric wherever possible has definitely been a goal of mine with 1.2.
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im still trying to make u=sure that theres stuff wrong b4 i post it to prevent me from just being un adapted to 1.2, but so far ill start with the new goons....
having adv a s2 is awsome as well as the new barbs which are doube awsome, im fine with lowering the goons chomp range, but right now its ridiculoously bad and NEEDS to be increased bad :dragoon:
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im still trying to make u=sure that theres stuff wrong b4 i post it to prevent me from just being un adapted to 1.2, but so far ill start with the new goons....
having adv a s2 is awsome as well as the new barbs which are doube awsome, im fine with lowering the goons chomp range, but right now its ridiculoously bad and NEEDS to be increased bad :dragoon:
Seconded.
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having adv a s2 is awsome as well as the new barbs which are doube awsome, im fine with lowering the goons chomp range, but right now its ridiculoously bad and NEEDS to be increased bad :dragoon:
Claw range needs to be increased again for sure, and also pounce needs to be nerfed some. This is still the biggest thing that baffles me. What is the intent/reason for making the goon's primary attack be pouncing?
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What is the intent/reason for making the goon's primary attack be pouncing?
It's more fun. The bite is like every other basic melee weapon in every other FPS. The pounce is what makes the goon different and interesting. Feel free to disagree. :)
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If the goon's primary attack is pouncing, shouldn't that be reflected in the mouse1/mouse2 setup?
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If the goon's primary attack is pouncing, shouldn't that be reflected in the mouse1/mouse2 setup?
So, you want to change what feels natural, as far as movement goes, just to conform to the damage hierarchy? Why? ???
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Any person who tries a goon is going to click the lmb first. It would make sense to switch the attacks so that lmb is pounce since pounce is now the main attack, and chomp is a lesser one.
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I have to disagree. Learning to pounce effectively is much harder than learning to bite. Also, why make players have to learn a different way of handling the dragoon when all of the other aliens (dretch and granger excluded) use the regular way. Might as well change all of them, if you're doing it to the dragoon.
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I agree. Keep the pounce as rmb. It would mess everything up with the other aliens.
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Pounce is dumb. Who wants to charge up a pounce every time they want to deal damage? Headchomping is harder but pounce is challenging because you have move at 1/2 speed, not bite, aim, and hold it down for a second or so before using it. Its like saying humans should have to jump on dretches to kill them. Yeah, it would be harder but for all the wrong wrong reasons.
What in the hell is going on around here?
I'm officially Losing Hope for 1.2 if it becomes a 'design by democracy' experience. I've seen forums in the past attempt to redesign a game and it turned out horrible. The same supporters posting in every thread will evaporate when the changes are released. The mainstays will be turned off, not by individual changes, but the overall see-saw of changes. Pretty much, if you want to kill a mod, let a forum design it. As much I think Norf is going in the wrong direction, its better for a small group of designers change things. They have skin in the game and they can be more consistent than a forum.
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Headchomping is harder but pounce is challenging because you have move at 1/2 speed, not bite, aim, and hold it down for a second or so before using it. Its like saying humans should have to jump on dretches to kill them.
What? No it isn't. You seem to not understand that humans and aliens are different. Humans inflict (mostly) range damage, while aliens do (again mostly) melee damage. Comparing them the way you are doing is not really fair to either faction.
Also, you are suggesting that we remove an ability that takes skill, and practice to fully master, just because you think it's "dumb" and doesn't work the way you think it should? An ability that has been almost iconic from the beginning of 1.1; that has made the dragoon a unique class among the other aliens. Sorry, but I can't agree with you here.
'design by democracy' experience.
I almost agreed with this, but think about this: Norf (and the other devs) only implement certain balance changes proposed by the community, while sticking to whatever goal they have of reaching balanced gameplay. It's not like we the forum goers have too much weight on any one specific issue.
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'design by democracy' experience.
Completely wrong. If you think about it, how many of the 1.2 changes have people objected to? Almost all of them. How many were changed because of that? Almost none, save stamina iirc. Norfenstein knows what he's doing and dragoons are perhaps more deadly than they were in 1.1 if used correctly.
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I have to disagree. Learning to pounce effectively is much harder than learning to bite. Also, why make players have to learn a different way of handling the dragoon when all of the other aliens (dretch and granger excluded) use the regular way. Might as well change all of them, if you're doing it to the dragoon.
No.
Pouncing is much easier to do than chomping is. I'm assuming you're talking about high-level play, and not about players trying dragoons for the first time. It's much harder to hit a good dodger with chomp than it is with pounce.
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No.
Pouncing is much easier to do than chomping is. I'm assuming you're talking about high-level play, and not about players trying dragoons for the first time. It's much harder to hit a good dodger with chomp than it is with pounce.
I was speaking from personal experience since I tend to rely more on pouncing as an escape/movement method. I have a hard time pouncing people as opposed to biting humans (I like to dance around), but again, that's only me personally. I probably should have said so above. I still stand by what I said about pounce being unique though. :P
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No.
Pouncing is much easier to do than chomping is. I'm assuming you're talking about high-level play, and not about players trying dragoons for the first time. It's much harder to hit a good dodger with chomp than it is with pounce.
I was speaking from personal experience since I tend to rely more on pouncing as an escape/movement method. I have a hard time pouncing people as opposed to biting humans (I like to dance around), but again, that's only me personally. I probably should have said so above. I still stand by what I said about pounce being unique though. :P
That's true; pouncing is definitely the most unique ability among all the aliens', and is the reason I play dragoons so much. I just don't agree with making it as overpowered as it is right now.
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What? No it isn't. You seem to not understand that humans and aliens are different. Humans inflict (mostly) range damage, while aliens do (again mostly) melee damage. Comparing them the way you are doing is not really fair to either faction.
Also, you are suggesting that we remove an ability that takes skill, and practice to fully master, just because you think it's "dumb" and doesn't work the way you think it should? An ability that has been almost iconic from the beginning of 1.1; that has made the dragoon a unique class among the other aliens. Sorry, but I can't agree with you here.
You act as if pounce and chomp were recently added to the game. It was fine for I don't know, 3-4 years. All of sudden its broken. Somethings just make sense. Going against that is brainless.
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It was fine for I don't know, 3-4 years. All of sudden its broken.
What's your reasoning for this? How did it all of a sudden get broken? Because it received a damage increase? ???
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As a human, pouncing is always a bad thing. Dodge the pounces. Simple. 1.1 pounce or 1.2 pounce, dodge it. It's not changing, stop asking.
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As a human, pouncing is always a bad thing. Dodge the pounces. Simple. 1.1 pounce or 1.2 pounce, dodge it. It's not changing, stop asking.
Actually, they're considering changing it now (considering emphasized). I plan to provide more evidence of pounce's overpowered nature. Debate is important; please don't stop asking, if your request is reasonable/logical/justified.
Also, it's almost impossible to really dodge good pouncers (long enough to kill them). Only Kriegsgott has done it somewhat effectively, and only around the bunker in the middle of ATCS. Otherwise, pounce = dead human.
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The only way you are dodging a "good" pouncer is if you run back and forth around a corner. You can cause a goon to miss maybe once or twice with the dodge, however once that goon hits you just one time, the knockback will disorient you and its over. I find it difficult to recover once youve been knocked with 1 and especially 2 pounces. Not to mention aiming at a goon pouncing around like a moron is much more difficult than it is at a goon trying to chomp you.
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The whole point of the GPP is to find this stuff, so please do ask because stuff very well might change.
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It mostly likely won't, so it's just a waste of your time.
@StevenM: Who says you're supposed to solo a goon? If you're trying to solo a goon, you deserve to lose.
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1 goon can also pounce a group of humans to death. 2 dragoons who know how to pounce can destroy a human group pretty easily.
Also,
It mostly likely won't, so it's just a waste of your time.
Attempting to tell us it is a waste of time is a waste of time. Just because you're willing to accept whatever is given to you doesn't mean others are. I fully support 1.2, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. As David has said, one of the major points of GPP is to refine 1.2.
As an example, there was a request to change stamina; Norfenstein agreed to change it. There was a request to change goon pouncing; they're considering it. To say things most likely won't change (when there is a good reason to) is wrong.
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Personally I think stamina is fine as is. Also the new human dodge button makes dretching much harder as is (also I forgot to every use it, and just dodged manually like I do in 1.1 and things were fine, so I think this is only going to help new human players --not a bad thing at all, but on balance you have to realize what this does to aliens, as it'll make attacking much more difficult when everyone can dodge, not just the pros). I really hope they don't boost human stamina, a dretch simply can't catch a human if they get too much, as they become faster, and that's not the way it's supposed to be.
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If you die often, you won't notice that stamina is drained way too much from sprinting alone. It prevents you from fighting multiple aliens in quick succession; you'll die from your inability to move, rather than your inability to dodge. This was never the case in 1.1, and it shouldn't be in 1.2, so I'm glad they're changing it.
About dretches: you need to learn better dretch tactics. I have had no problems dretching humans, regardless of sprinting/dodging. Charging humans is the best strategy for losing; using corners and hiding places, flanking, etc. are much better options, and they negate a human's ability to dodge away. Rifles had the advantage against dretches in 1.1, anyway. It was always easy to dodge them.
Also, humans won't become faster if they change stamina. They're changing stamina, not speed. Many dretch vs rifle fights probably begin with full stamina, so you might not even notice a difference, unless you're attacking in waves (and even then, you'll probably kill the human).
I don't think they're boosting stamina either; I think Norfenstein said he'll reduce sprinting's drain on stamina.
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As an example, there was a request to change stamina; Norfenstein agreed to change it.
how many of the 1.2 changes have people objected to? Almost all of them. How many were changed because of that? Almost none, save stamina iirc
There was a request to change goon pouncing; they're considering it.
Do enlighten us.
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I'm okay with reducing sprinting's drain on stamina.
Legit quote there.
As for the others, I haven't seen the quotes, but I'm sure ingame/IRC would be the venue. (ie, I can't find them)
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The point is, the hoi polloi of Tremulous were never really meant to design balance anyway; from what I can see, the suggestions of seasoned players (i.e. those of us who have been playing long enough to know what we are talking about) are being acted upon.
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There was a request to change goon pouncing; they're considering it.
Do enlighten us.
I've only said they're considering it, which was stated in-game. It could very well not be changed; the point is that they are, contrary to the seemingly popular belief, listening.