Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Conzul on May 09, 2010, 04:27:34 pm
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The default ones always suck. They are often exactly the opposite of how a builder would do things. This applies more to aliens that to humans. I would like to see for once a map or two that has a default layout that has tubes in crevasses in the ceiling, and maybe some barri's around the om instead of out in the middle (Tremor, anyone?). Or, I think a team should be able to vote for a better starting layout if they won the previous match. So there should be a Default Layout, and an Award Layout.
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I've discussed layouts with Norfenstein way back in December (ish), and the official stance is that if you want different starting layouts, you should try making your own and submitting them for review. To do that:
- Load a map (map or devmap will do)
- Create your ideal default base for that map
- Save layout with "layoutsave [layoutname]"
- locate the layout files (usually inside the GPP folder that resides with the qkey file)
- Send to a dev (Norf preferably, this is very likely a balance issue)
Bear in mind that when I talked to Norf about it, he was unsure whether to make the bases into modified for 1.2 bases, or half completed bases (meaning half the BP has been used)
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I seem to recall various mappers saying that as long as the base is good enough to avoid instant defeat, then it's up to the players to build however, giving awesome starting bases in a good location removes a large chunk of one of the games core mechanics.
And teams change each map, making any kind of persistence arbitrary.
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I've discussed layouts with Norfenstein way back in December (ish), and the official stance is that if you want different starting layouts, you should try making your own and submitting them for review. To do that:
- Load a map (map or devmap will do)
- Create your ideal default base for that map
- Save layout with "layoutsave [layoutname]"
- locate the layout files (usually inside the GPP folder that resides with the qkey file)
- Send to a dev (Norf preferably, this is very likely a balance issue)
Bear in mind that when I talked to Norf about it, he was unsure whether to make the bases into modified for 1.2 bases, or half completed bases (meaning half the BP has been used)
Thanks, this was very useful.
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I wouldn't mind 3 or 4 crappy start-layouts spread around the map. It would be even better if the layouts were selected separately for both teams, since that adds to the randomness(not knowing where enemy will be). This would force people to learn the maps and add an interesting element to the first minutes of the game.
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Layouts are a cool idea that's greatly hurt by the fact that there are only a few viable bases for each side on each map, if more than one at all really. Even the layouts that switched the two starting locations were often quite bad (see Karith). Maybe with the new viability of non-stock maps we can see them used more on some of the larger custom maps.
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Default bases are supposed to be crappy and only provide the very minimal needed to prevent an instant loss.
It's up to your builders to assemble a proper base.
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Default bases are supposed to be crappy and only provide the very minimal needed to prevent an instant loss.
It's up to your builders to assemble a proper base.
Agreed. I could however see some randomization of crappy maps in different locations.
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As long as they aren't super-crappy, like RC in the middle of the tall hall in Karith!
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"Needs some work" is fine. "This spot sucks and we have to move immediately to a whole different location" is not.
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So then the tremor starting positions are ok, but the niveus ones are not?
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Rezyn has a bunch of layouts we used on SST/Nutz. Mostly reverses, although some were pretty interesting. All used the same amount of buildables per map as the defaults, so...
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This is the default human layout from a map that I happen to like rather a lot. Does this seem.....
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9468/orionhlayout.png) (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/orionhlayout.png/)
Default bases are supposed to be crappy and only provide the very minimal needed to prevent an instant loss.
Minimal protection to prevent instant loss. Uh-huh. That is a pretty tight starting base.
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That base is way too easy to destroy with a mara, get behind the wall, bye bye nodes and arm.
Game, Set, Match.
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That is still pretty good for a starting base. The guy who designed the map should have made the human starting base more crappy though to fit in with the layouts on the default maps though.
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I'd like to say that Tremor hasn't a crappy barricade layout. Actually, they are pretty useful.
Also... Conzul, how many f^cking threads have you started in the last week? I smell a troll
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I'd like to say that Tremor hasn't a crappy barricade layout. Actually, they are pretty useful.
Also... Conzul, how many f^cking threads have you started in the last week? I smell a troll
It's my shift :(
Seriously though I bring to light problems that other ppl are too lazy to.
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What's the point having builders in a game that starts out with perfect bases? The building element is a huge part of the game but if you give a player the base they need then they have no need to build.
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What's the point having builders in a game that starts out with perfect bases? The building element is a huge part of the game but if you give a player the base they need then they have no need to build.
This is true.
*** However, I think that in the newer maps the alien team gets starting layouts that are just a little crappier than the proper crappy. It's a question of how easily your base can be penetrated in the first minute of the game. There are little to no human starting builds that an alien can get into and find a blind spot (cus of increased ret range, courtesy of 1.2). Conversly, most alien layouts (especially in small maps or those with teleports) have many holes in them and only a thin defense of a barricade (that often covers nothing) or a lone tube. That's what it boils down to, and it's imbalanced. Because humans can find spots in the alien room without damage being dealt to them, and spawn-camp.
*** Secondly, and of lesser import, is the times when just a few ppl (or just 2) pop into a server and just want to scrim without building a base till more players come. It would be nice to have (just one) map in the official lineup with a moderately pimped starting layout for these occasions.
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As said, the default layout should be good enough to prevent instant defeat. It should also be incomplete enough to allow a team to quickly move their base.
Mappers can provide other, non-default layouts in the pk3.
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That base is way too easy to destroy with a mara, get behind the wall, bye bye nodes and arm.
Game, Set, Match.
you don't get maras right away thats the point.........................
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You probably get maras about as soon as you do on any map...
There are little to no human starting builds that an alien can get into and find a blind spot
All default bases are easy to kill even with basi if no1 camps.
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ALL the bases need some fine-tune (alot), when you start game. What i've seen, some alien bases are prone to mass human rush at S1 (for example, Niveus.) And some human bases are quite prone too for mass dretch assault (they swarm all over the feet, get few kills, retreat and comes back as basi/mara/goon and finish the job done. good example, Tremor and ATCS).
So. Layouts don't concern much in 20 players and over. In smaller games its different though. Then layout should give meager protection. Humans can hop in if there is tube or 2 defending, or ret alone in corner defending nodes, without any sort of angle cover while someone in aliens took 3-4 frags and is normal mara.
And my final notes...
The building is always up to you.
If not.... get kills or defend for while.
And if no one builds, failure.
The End.
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ATCS requires one gun and one builder to put a turret in spawn and defend until it's reasonably built. Tremor's a bit of a different story (especially for aliens). I notice that, since A are more a rushing type, H bases are more frequently put to the test of the pre-build rush, but are (largely) less likely to break and fail during this period, whereas alien bases frequently will go down to a pre-build rush. (Consider the destructive and defensive power of the default aggressive class for both A and H and I think the reason for this becomes clear.)
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Tremor has one of the worst default alien base, if humans manage to enter it, not just camp at the entrance, it's most likely game will end in a minute. Nano is pretty terrible too, if you don't spawn as granger and build an egg, you will probably end up in huge spawn queue, because you will have one egg left, as the second one is extremely exposed. People seem to learn it now, and I can't recall any recent nano game where there werent more grangers than dretches at the beginning :)
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Mappers can provide other, non-default layouts in the pk3.
Is there a way on the officials to vote for a certain map with a certain layout as an option?
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/callvote map mapname layout, if it hasn't changed
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Cool, next dump question: How do I query a server which layouts it has?
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/listlayouts, you must have permission to do so though.
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/listlayouts, you must have permission to do so though.
Thank you.
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np, I think it's odd that most server owners allow random players to use /time, but not /listlayouts or /listmaps. If they are worried about ddos they shouldn't alow time either ??? Perhaps they don't realize that /listlayouts and /listmaps are important to a random player?
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np, I think it's odd that most server owners allow random players to use /time, but not /listlayouts or /listmaps. If they are worried about ddos they shouldn't alow time either ??? Perhaps they don't realize that /listlayouts and /listmaps are important to a random player?
Amen.
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I don't think they should be admin commands at all.
No point in not allowing them.
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Is there a way on the officials to vote for a certain map with a certain layout as an option?
No
/callvote map mapname layout, if it hasn't changed
It never changed
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Is there a way on the officials to vote for a certain map with a certain layout as an option?
No
(http://marquetteeducator.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/why-not1-450x314.png)
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Because they are official servers testing Tremulous balance, not Conzul's Fun Layout #5?
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Because they are official servers testing Tremulous balance, not Conzul's Fun Layout #5?
:o :o OOooo Burn!.... :o :o
Will they be when testing is done?
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When 1.2 comes out?
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When 1.2 comes out?
I said "will they be (able to vote for layout) when testing is done", not, "when will testing be done?". Take a moment to actually read a post before replying.
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D'oh.
iFail at reading.....totally read that wrong.
Carry on.
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I agree with the theory that if it doesn't allow instant death it's good enough for a starting base. Even using qvm's (like Lakuta7's) that allow layouts I would never dream of making the bases impenetrable. On GameArena (Australian server) I've thrown a few random layouts around to spice things up, I get told they are wrong but when I press them with "Do you get killed right away" they back down and tell me that they are OK, it's just that they didn't expect them.