Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: jellicle on May 26, 2010, 08:02:54 pm
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I've been playing 1.2 for a few weeks, and here's my impression: Overall, the aliens have been nerfed far too much. Almost every change from 1.1 has been to nerf aliens and improve humans, and the end result, like some of the 1.1 mods that are out there, is to make humans vastly overpowered. The only reason aliens are winning any games at all is due to heavily stacked teams. With evenly matched teams, the humans are winning nearly 100%.
1) Turret changes have made them far more effective against large aliens. Dragoons and tyrants die instantly if they're within range of more than one turret. I don't understand why base defense against stage 3 aliens would be improved - surely the whole point is that stage 3 aliens SHOULD BE tougher than the human base? Aliens certainly have no base defenses against stage 3 humans. Hives do 18 damage to battlesuited humans, and fire once every 3 seconds. Turrets do 60 damage/second to aliens, with nearly 100% hits against large aliens. A hive will kill a battlesuit in about 16 seconds. A turret will kill a tyrant in 6 seconds. Did I mention that the hive costs 50% more BP, and is much weaker than the turret? Why should human base defenses be powerful against stage 3 aliens?
2) Tyrants. Nobody even bothers to evolve to a tyrant anymore. I've seen dozens of alien stage 3 games without anyone ever evolving to a tyrant. A couple of naked humans with rifles kill one in a second. Rifle does 60 dps, and gets 100% hits against an alien as large as a tyrant. If the humans know how to dodge, it literally takes TWO naked humans to kill a healthy tyrant, and ONE naked human might have a chance. The only situation where a tyrant can get kills is if it waits around a corner, builds up a trample, and times it just right to hit humans as they come around the corner, and then the tyrant immediately runs away to heal for about a minute. Tyrants are nearly worthless against bases, able to kill one turret only, if they're lucky, on a suicide attack - there's no chance of retreating, as a single turret will slaughter you as you retreat - tyrants simply have no ability to rush the human base and escape anymore, they're too big and have too few hit points and healing. If humans have one or two campers the tyrant might not even make it to the turrets. If the tyrant class is kept as it is, it should cost no more than 3 evos. When your premier class isn't being used, you have a problem. Are there any stage 3 games where no human buys a battlesuit or a lucifer cannon? No.
3) Dretch. Two headbites to kill naked humans, otherwise three bites. That is, pretty much a minimum of 1.5 seconds to kill a naked human, once you've gotten close to him, while the human has a weapon that can kill you in .5 seconds from any distance. Humans who toggle sprint can sprint while backpedaling and shoot off a full clip before the dretch can close the distance. Humans who wear light armour are nearly unkillable without headbiting. Did I mention that with new human stamina, they can just jump up and down continuously to avoid being headbitten? Once they get helmets, dretches don't get any kills at all anymore. What's the dretch kill-to-death ratio against stage 2 and stage 3 humans? One kill for every hundred dretches killed? Even that is only due to poison, and only against naked humans.
4) Distance. Designer may or may not realize it, but map distance between alien and human bases is a major balance factor. Close together, humans have a major advantage. Far apart, aliens have a moderate advantage. The speed/stamina changes have massively reduced the effective map distance between bases. Humans can sprint the entire distance to alien base, no problem. Cheap forward bases also reduce effective distance. To bring back that balance, every map would have to look like Procyon.
5) Aliens in general. Every alien class has been nerfed, with the exception of the advanced marauder, which is nearly the only alien that has any survivability, and only if you keep moving. The healing reduction, combined with all the other nerfs, is terrible. Do aliens have at least one person who is willing to evolve to basilisk and then SIT AROUND THE ENTIRE GAME WITH THEIR THUMB UP THEIR ASS, avoiding combat and acting as a mobile healing station? If so, they have a chance. If not, they don't. The basilisk with its new reduced HP has very little ability to fight stage 2 or stage 3 humans - in the hands of totally expert players, a basilisk can get some occasional kills, but 100% of inexpert players just get shot down without doing any damage. Add up the total number of basilisk kills by a player who didn't finish in the top 3 on his team: it's zero. Hitbox is large enough to be shot, basilisk is slow enough to take a lot of bullets, and no HP to survive any shooting.
6) Human base. Besides the turrets, a DC makes the reactor unhoppable because of the reactor damage increase. High HP makes the armoury a lot tougher target than it once was. So the previously-vulnerable parts of human base almost never suffer premature failure anymore from aggressive cunning aliens. In fact the usual method of human base failure now is marauders zapping the telenodes - telenodes are now the weakest link in human base. Once one or two nodes are destroyed, if not immediately replaced, the reduction in human defenders spawning usually leads to base collapse. Note to human builders: build 3 telenodes. Personally, I preferred having to watch out for cunning aliens chomping my reactor or my armoury rather than having those items effectively invulnerable.
7) Dodge. Skilled human players can dodge most hits from a single alien. Dodge doesn't protect you from the alien you don't see behind you, but in the common situation of just one alien, dodge can easily let a naked human kill a dragoon, for example. With the healing reductions, humans see far more wounded aliens than they used to - that dragoon probably doesn't have anywhere near 200 HP.
Overall: Far too many nerfs for aliens. Decreasing HP and decreasing healing rate while you decrease attack ranges and speeds and make humans faster and tougher? Awesome. The cumulative effect of all of these changes strongly biases the game towards humans. There was a suggestion in an earlier thread: force auto-join, distribute players randomly among teams. You'll find humans win a LOT of games. Currently the problems are masked because the good players are interested in playing aliens, and sufficiently stacked teams will always win against noobish defenders. Humans are also more vulnerable to ONE nooby player who nades the base or moves the reactor outside the base. That causes a fair number of human losses, which shouldn't be included in balance statistics... but are. Not to mention, i.e., the reactor-gives-no-power-if-more-than-max-bp bug which I reported, and which has also caused a number of human losses, which again shouldn't be counted in balance stats... but are.
Interestingly, I was just thinking that if alien base defenses were increased, all else being equal (double the HP of every alien item, double the damage of every alien defense), the result would be a lot like 1.1 but reversed. Aliens would be sitting inside their tough-defenses base, unable to emerge, while humans would be camping outside shooting in, trying to whittle down alien defenses. Might be funny for veterans of 1.1 - turnabout is fair play.
Anyway, Tremulous 1.2 isn't interesting to play as the game is so unbalanced currently. You can get a balanced game, if you have something like 5-6 skilled alien players (plus some unskilled) vs. 2 skilled human players (plus some unskilled). If teams are balanced (and humans don't hit a reactor bug or anything like that), humans win. That's my perspective. Now you can post your "cry more n00b" responses. :)
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You might be used to used to 1.1 possibly, considering aliens were the overpowered race there. It might seem like humans are winning way too much, but it is actually very close to a 50/50 split, which is a big change from 1.1.
I'm not really in the mood to argue all your points, but I do encourage you to keep at it, and perhaps you will see why GPP is more fun than 1.1.
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While I think you've exaggerated pretty much everything, there is an element of truth in most of your arguments. The reason that aliens are weaker in 1.2 than 1.1 is that in 1.1, they were winning far too many games. This was for several reasons, but dev thinks that balanced numbers are what is most important.
Few specifics: Yeah, I think the hive should have a few more HP than it does, it dies way to quickly compared to human s3 defense.
Tyrant has both survivability and damage potential. You can even raid bases and survive, but you need a top notch internet connection, and some practice under your belt.
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1) It has always been this way: human base defenses are stronger than the alien team's. The human team also needs it way more.
2) Tyrant could use some more HP but they aren't nearly as worthless as you make them seem. They are the most powerful aliens unless you encounter a big stack of humans.
3) Dretch could use a small HP boost
4) Procyon isn't really balanced (http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/eu1/map_balance.php)
5) Creep and booster can both be used too. S1 isn't much of a game's time. Also, usually someone has only evos for a basilisk making one available at most times. Also, goon is still very powerful.
6) It's good that armoury isn't that vulnerable anymore. It was cheap in 1.1. Also I think medi is a weak part too now.
7) A dragoon can very well kill a naked rifle even if it dodges.
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@ the basi comment:
Ohai thar, I personally play lisk alot, and its healing make it really annoying for the hummies to kill, as give it a few seconds, and its back to full hp(especially adv lisk)
as for the rant thing, I'm pretty sure its mostly because the rant is no longer the end all class. it has its strengths and weaknesses now, and the other classes are now usable against s3 humans, whereas in 1.1 rant was really the only one that could.
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Yes, it makes the end stage three gameplay a lot more varied and way less boring than it was just with rants. When you learn to trample tyrant is the best killer, the alien chainsuit.
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The only reason aliens are winning any games at all is due to heavily stacked teams. With evenly matched teams, the humans are winning nearly 100%.
Firstly, yes, if you throw out all of the alien wins, then statistically humans will be winning 100%. I'm sorry if I can't take you seriously here.
Secondly, what about the advanced marauder, advanced dragoon, basilisk, and tyrant buffs? Sure these classes recieved some nerfs to compensate, but the tyrant is arguably more able in 1 on 1 combat, and the marauder (especially) and advanced dragon have become much more potent against human bases. The turrets have also been changed so that despite a high potential damage/sec, the spinup time means that few aliens actually bother to take that damage. You must be seriously missing something to say that almost every change has been to the humans benefit.
Finally, as equilibrium pointed out, the aliens are generally considered to be overpowered in 1.1. I am not denying that the balance has shifted somewhat, but I think you're exaggerating just a tiny bit when you say that the humans are winning nearly 100% of fair matches.
1) Turret changes have made them far more effective against large aliens. Dragoons and tyrants die instantly if they're within range of more than one turret. I don't understand why base defense against stage 3 aliens would be improved - surely the whole point is that stage 3 aliens SHOULD BE tougher than the human base? Aliens certainly have no base defenses against stage 3 humans. Hives do 18 damage to battlesuited humans, and fire once every 3 seconds. Turrets do 60 damage/second to aliens, with nearly 100% hits against large aliens. A hive will kill a battlesuit in about 16 seconds. A turret will kill a tyrant in 6 seconds. Did I mention that the hive costs 50% more BP, and is much weaker than the turret? Why should human base defenses be powerful against stage 3 aliens?
Use larger aliens as they were meant to be used. Using a tyrant for basecracking is usually either silly, or an intentionally suicidal attack. Tyrants combat humans, not bases.
2) Tyrants. Nobody even bothers to evolve to a tyrant anymore. I've seen dozens of alien stage 3 games without anyone ever evolving to a tyrant. A couple of naked humans with rifles kill one in a second. Rifle does 60 dps, and gets 100% hits against an alien as large as a tyrant. If the humans know how to dodge, it literally takes TWO naked humans to kill a healthy tyrant, and ONE naked human might have a chance. The only situation where a tyrant can get kills is if it waits around a corner, builds up a trample, and times it just right to hit humans as they come around the corner, and then the tyrant immediately runs away to heal for about a minute... When your premier class isn't being used, you have a problem. Are there any stage 3 games where no human buys a battlesuit or a lucifer cannon? No.
This is bullshit. The rifles would have to reload; they can only do 150dmg/clip. A tyrant 1-hit kills humans without a helmet with slash, and naked humans die rather readily to trample as well. If you're thinking of a situation where the tyrant wouldn't reach the humans in time to slaughter them, then the extra .84 seconds you'd get from a 1.1 tyrant probably wouldn't help you. Secondly, I haven't seen many games that get to as3 vs hs3 where tyrants were not employed. You see, tyrants are meant for taking on battlesuits, not assulting bases, which would probably be the situation as3 vs hs2, the games I haven't are usually because one side lacks the abillity to defend their base (which is one of the things tyrants are good at, btw).
Tyrants are nearly worthless against bases, able to kill one turret only, if they're lucky, on a suicide attack - there's no chance of retreating, as a single turret will slaughter you as you retreat - tyrants simply have no ability to rush the human base and escape anymore, they're too big and have too few hit points and healing. If humans have one or two campers the tyrant might not even make it to the turrets.
Of course. You have to get used to the idea that, I'll say it one last time, tyrants aren't usually meant for assulting bases. However, in poorly built bases it can be quite possible for a tyrant to take out multiple turrets. In sudden death, a tyrant can potentially do a good number on the armory though.
3) Dretch. Two headbites to kill naked humans, otherwise three bites. That is, pretty much a minimum of 1.5 seconds to kill a naked human, once you've gotten close to him, while the human has a weapon that can kill you in .5 seconds from any distance. Humans who toggle sprint can sprint while backpedaling and shoot off a full clip before the dretch can close the distance. Humans who wear light armour are nearly unkillable without headbiting. Did I mention that with new human stamina, they can just jump up and down continuously to avoid being headbitten? Once they get helmets, dretches don't get any kills at all anymore. What's the dretch kill-to-death ratio against stage 2 and stage 3 humans? One kill for every hundred dretches killed? Even that is only due to poison, and only against naked humans.
I'm sorry, but I really have to chalk this down to exaggeration and lack of skill. There are some experienced players who agree that the dretch is slightly (albiet not anywhere near to the extent you suggest) underpowered, however. The jumping up and down thing is correct though.
4) Distance. Designer may or may not realize it, but map distance between alien and human bases is a major balance factor. Close together, humans have a major advantage. Far apart, aliens have a moderate advantage. The speed/stamina changes have massively reduced the effective map distance between bases. Humans can sprint the entire distance to alien base, no problem. Cheap forward bases also reduce effective distance. To bring back that balance, every map would have to look like Procyon.
With one problem: a human who sprints to the alien base has no stamina left, even on nano. You understand how that disadvantages the human, right? Neverthess, as usual, what you say is slightly true, but greatly (greatly) exaggerated. The smallest map on the official US server for instance, UTCS, appears to favour aliens slightly atm.
5) Aliens in general. Every alien class has been nerfed, with the exception of the advanced marauder
The advanced marauder suffered a hitbox increase. It has been nerfed as well. EDIT: Apparently that's not true. This is still meaningless however, because every alien class has recieved some sort of a buff as well. Do aliens have at least one person who is willing to evolve to basilisk and then SIT AROUND THE ENTIRE GAME WITH THEIR THUMB UP THEIR ASS, avoiding combat and acting as a mobile healing station? If so, they have a chance. If not, they don't.
Build a booster. It helps. In all seriousness however, the booster and creep healing is enough to get by. To be fair, you do have a small kernel of truth in this pile of useless exaggeration. The basilisk is one of the hardest classes to learn to fight effectively with and can help your team a lot even if you don't know how to fight with it. However, when you do, you're also probably skilled at marauders, tyrants, and/or dragoons.
6) Human base. Besides the turrets, a DC makes the reactor unhoppable because of the reactor damage increase. High HP makes the armoury a lot tougher target than it once was. So the previously-vulnerable parts of human base almost never suffer premature failure anymore from aggressive cunning aliens. In fact the usual method of human base failure now is marauders zapping the telenodes - telenodes are now the weakest link in human base. Once one or two nodes are destroyed, if not immediately replaced, the reduction in human defenders spawning usually leads to base collapse. Note to human builders: build 3 telenodes. Personally, I preferred having to watch out for cunning aliens chomping my reactor or my armoury rather than having those items effectively invulnerable.
Well said. Personally I like how reactor hopping takes more effort, and I never understood people's obsession with getting rid of the armory unless its right before or in sudden death, but your assessment here is correct. What you are missing, however, is that the turrets are themselves often weak points. Take full advantage of the fact that turrets have a spinup time. If the humans have no defences but themselves, they tend not to do so well at camping.
7) Dodge. Skilled human players can dodge most hits from a single alien. Dodge doesn't protect you from the alien you don't see behind you, but in the common situation of just one alien, dodge can easily let a naked human kill a dragoon, for example. With the healing reductions, humans see far more wounded aliens than they used to - that dragoon probably doesn't have anywhere near 200 HP.
Naked human can easily kill a dragoon eh? *sigh* I assume these are the same folks who can kill tyrants with rifles...
I personally try to be almost at full health when going to a combat situation, as should everyone else now that you have to heal by a basilisk or at your base, but if you are seeing aliens go willingly toward combat when wounded, that's their own fault.
Currently the problems are masked because the good players are interested in playing aliens, and sufficiently stacked teams will always win against noobish defenders. Humans are also more vulnerable to ONE nooby player who nades the base or moves the reactor outside the base. That causes a fair number of human losses, which shouldn't be included in balance statistics... but are. Not to mention, i.e., the reactor-gives-no-power-if-more-than-max-bp bug which I reported, and which has also caused a number of human losses, which again shouldn't be counted in balance stats... but are.
So? Don't listen to the stats. They're just there for fun. Of course the stats are useless, there are too many other variables.
Anyway, Tremulous 1.2 isn't interesting to play as the game is so unbalanced currently. You can get a balanced game, if you have something like 5-6 skilled alien players (plus some unskilled) vs. 2 skilled human players (plus some unskilled). If teams are balanced (and humans don't hit a reactor bug or anything like that), humans win. That's my perspective. Now you can post your "cry more n00b" responses. :)
Play around some more, try to back up what you say, and you'll be able to come up with some decent arguments. Please do this again when you get basilisks figured out.
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Jellicle: you need much more experience with 1.2, get used to the changes, don't play like it's supposed to be 1.1. As said, you are hugely exaggerating, and some alien class roles have changed.
F50: Actually the mara and +mara bbox sizes have been decreased (increased a little bit for phase 5, but overall still decreased), same with goon.
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1: What comes to hive's attacks, i've seen it quite deadly to bsuits (or just some aliens hitting me same time :P), they take 'bout 40 hp off and over.
2: It has its parts in game, like all classes. Besides, when charging, it is good to harass group of humans in tight hallway, and if there is wall behind them, WHAM. Thats it. Although it leaves it near death-condition. And yes, requires some skill to use that (what i sometimes lack lot and few times can take whole squad of humans, or most of them.)
And it is not meant to take down human bases with ease, yea. But it is essential for tyrant to create feint, occasionally taking ret or two down, and letting others to snipe/zap human base. That's why there is thing called teamwork. And sometimes suicide rushes does good. If all aliens are attacking of course. (I took 2 nodes with assists down in Tremor, and few others as a rants did that too. Left human base bad shape.)
3: Debatable. Some say being dretch needs skill, some say its just starting alien, and some say it needs changes. But i don't give my euros for this.
4: Right. Depends on human's use of stamina. If you use all stamina to get alien base... Bad idea. You need almost all stamina in alien bases, and even in ATCS you drain over half of usable stamina. If you intend to run away, or get past alien trappers, then you need it badly.
5: Play, learn its skills, purpose in battles, know weaknesses, know strengths, and finally, master them. If you ever do. It's even for me takin too much time to learn all specialties, like goon's deadly pounce to head. If i'm useless to attacking human bases, i can always be a basilisk. An Adv. Basilisk near human base can tip the scales to alien favor, if there is needed constant suppression to human base.
And finally: Patience.
6: Tactics, tactics.... That is the way to take tough nutshell human base.
7: Dodge drains lot of stamina (lot and lot, but maybe i just overuse dodge) and already exhausted player, say 72 % stamina left, 3 hops here and there, in row, is alien meal, if alien can take few hitpoints away while human tries to dodge, too. Mostly it is used when you're low health (not confirmed) and get some range to aliens, like in ATCS hallway ramps, you're on high, and ramp taking down, you dodge backwards to increase distance to alien (I usually do that.)
And My personal opinions only.
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(http://imgur.com/bh7YQ.png)
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Pfft it's not my fault alien gameplay is superior to human. Otherwise I'd play human sometimes.
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*snip*
Are these stats for the current phase?
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That stats image supports what I'm saying. Norfenstein, you seem to think that the overall number of games won/lost is the only stat that counts. Your image says that 5% of games end in HS3 v. AS1 - 5% human blowouts. While 3% of games end in AS3 vs. HS1 - alien blowouts. That's a huge difference - the humans are getting 60% more blowout victories than the aliens are. 7% of games end in AS3 v HS2 - moderate alien blowout. While 14% of games end in HS3 vs. AS2 - moderate human blowout. Again, a huge difference - the humans are getting 100% more moderate blowouts than the aliens are. And many of the ALIEN blowouts are not alien-caused - they're human-caused (deconning, failed move, the reactor-doesn't-work bug, etc.). So actually the blowout ratio is even worse than pictured - when the aliens get blown out, it's generally a "fair" blowout, with their base functioning until destroyed, while when the humans get blown out, it's often a self-caused problem where the humans eliminate their own base and then run around screaming and getting eaten for a while.
I don't understand what the "bias" statistic is measuring. I can't think of any measurement where the acceptable values range from -1 to -.5, then have a gap from -.5 to +.5, and then range from +.5 to +1. And your earlier stat graphs DO have plusses in the range of -.5 to +.5, so apparently you've changed what the bias stat is measuring since the earlier graphs were created. What is the "bias" stat measuring?
Your stats need to be much more detailed to detect balance problems. Everyone is telling you that the experienced players play aliens much more often, and you've never addressed that, or you intend to "balance" the game including a massive subsidy assuming a noob human team, which is a terrible idea. Balance is worthless if players can click anything except "autojoin" - it's a self-selected poll problem. If players get to choose which team to play on, the outcomes of the games are going to be FAR more decided by their choices than they are going to be because of the inherent abilities of the humans or aliens. You must factor out player skill.
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That stats image supports what I'm saying.
I don't know to what quote you are referring, but the graph contradicts your claim that humans win much more often than aliens. Overall, aliens win more often.
Norfenstein, you seem to think that the overall number of games won/lost is the only stat that counts.
Norfenstein has taken into account some other stats to address some criticism.
Tremstats for the official servers are up for the current (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12469.0) phase of the gameplay preview: http://stats.tremulous.net/
We'll get the old data up for you in some form eventually, but for now I'd like to share some non-serious observations grepped from the games.logs of phase one.
I wouldn't call that useless: The dragoon bite got more player kills than the pounce on both servers (the goon with both attacks combined was the top human killer for both as well).
Probably not because of camping: On the EU server, turrets got more alien kills than any other human weapon, beating out both the rifle and lucifer cannon (which were tops on the US server and second on the EU).
It's like a bigger one: Reactors killed more aliens than teslas. On the EU server structure explosions killed more aliens than teslas.
Definitely the unlagged: The third highest ranking human weapon for player kills? Mass driver on US; pulse rifle on EU. Shotgun was fourth on both.
Still the king: The lucifer cannon was far and away the top alien structure killer. On the US server it even got the most structure kills if you discount kills from splash damage. Flamer and chaingun were last on both.
Overpowered: On the EU server marauders killed about an equal amount of structures with claws as with zap; on the US server claws got two thirds more structure kills.
My congratulations to the people that got the four structure kills with the tyrant's crush, nine structure kills with the granger spit, and four player kills with the granger spit.
Player kills by MOD, EU server
4521 MACHINEGUN
4030 LCANNON (combined)
3075 PRIFLE
2679 SHOTGUN
2114 LCANNON_SPLASH
1928 LASGUN
1916 LCANNON
1735 MDRIVER
898 CHAINGUN
733 FLAMER (combined)
637 PAINSAW
537 FLAMER
501 GRENADE
497 BLASTER
196 FLAMER_SPLASH
5060 MGTURRET
230 REACTOR
179 HSPAWN
114 TESLAGEN
6391 LEVEL3 (combined)
5373 LEVEL0_BITE
3592 LEVEL1_CLAW
2836 LEVEL3_CLAW
2767 LEVEL3_POUNCE
2224 LEVEL2 (combined)
2089 LEVEL4 (combined)
1523 LEVEL4_CLAW
1418 LEVEL2_CLAW
806 LEVEL2_ZAP
761 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
516 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
444 POISON
50 LEVEL4_CRUSH
44 ABUILDER_CLAW
3 SLOWBLOB
281 ATUBE
108 SWARM
57 OVERMIND
21 ASPAWN
62 FALLING
50 SUICIDE
46 TRIGGER_HURT
1 CRUSH
Player kills by MOD, US server
7440 MACHINEGUN
6790 LCANNON (combined)
4148 MDRIVER
3851 SHOTGUN
3807 LASGUN
3441 LCANNON_SPLASH
3349 LCANNON
2829 PRIFLE
2361 CHAINGUN
746 PAINSAW
719 FLAMER (combined)
638 GRENADE
511 FLAMER
344 BLASTER
208 FLAMER_SPLASH
4618 MGTURRET
292 REACTOR
218 TESLAGEN
203 HSPAWN
7883 LEVEL3 (combined)
6997 LEVEL0_BITE
4221 LEVEL4 (combined)
3849 LEVEL3_CLAW
3431 LEVEL3_POUNCE
3275 LEVEL2 (combined)
3052 LEVEL4_CLAW
2516 LEVEL2_CLAW
2301 LEVEL1_CLAW
1067 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
848 POISON
759 LEVEL2_ZAP
603 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
102 LEVEL4_CRUSH
36 ABUILDER_CLAW
1 SLOWBLOB
362 ATUBE
135 SWARM
53 OVERMIND
11 ASPAWN
131 TRIGGER_HURT
101 FALLING
52 SUICIDE
48 CRUSH
44 TELEFRAG
10 LAVA
6 WATER
Structure kills by MOD, EU server
1774 LCANNON (combined)
977 PRIFLE
963 NOCREEP
797 LCANNON
752 MACHINEGUN
655 PAINSAW
638 GRENADE
502 LASGUN
234 BLASTER
224 SHOTGUN
167 LCANNON_SPLASH
151 MDRIVER
145 CHAINGUN
138 FLAMER (combined)
116 FLAMER
22 FLAMER_SPLASH
2653 LEVEL3 (combined)
1324 LEVEL3_CLAW
1128 LEVEL2 (combined)
999 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
661 LEVEL1_CLAW
571 LEVEL4 (combined)
567 LEVEL2_ZAP
561 LEVEL2_CLAW
551 LEVEL4_CLAW
330 LEVEL3_POUNCE
187 LEVEL0_BITE
62 ABUILDER_CLAW
19 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
2 SLOWBLOB
1 LEVEL4_CRUSH
123 DECONSTRUCT
Structure kills by MOD, US server
1464 LCANNON (combined)
1159 LCANNON
794 GRENADE
783 MACHINEGUN
776 NOCREEP
668 PRIFLE
537 LASGUN
446 PAINSAW
305 LCANNON_SPLASH
236 SHOTGUN
186 MDRIVER
184 BLASTER
169 CHAINGUN
74 FLAMER (combined)
66 FLAMER
8 FLAMER_SPLASH
2320 LEVEL3 (combined)
1420 LEVEL2 (combined)
1259 LEVEL3_CLAW
887 LEVEL2_CLAW
826 LEVEL4_CLAW
791 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
770 LEVEL4_CLAW
533 LEVEL2_ZAP
450 LEVEL1_CLAW
270 LEVEL3_POUNCE
211 LEVEL0_BITE
87 ABUILDER_CLAW
53 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
7 SLOWBLOB
3 LEVEL4_CRUSH
120 DECONSTRUCT
Of course, I'm not sure what other stats he has taken into account. He realizes that stats aren't all that count either:
And up until now feelings have been the only thing used to balance 1.2 (and no, not just my feelings). Now we're using them to interpret and act on empirical data, where we feel it's beneficial.
There's no getting around needing to use intuition at some level, and more importantly: multiple cycles of tweaking and re-testing (and no, the time spent changing things and playing on the development server wasn't enough, it always had to be with a much larger playerbase).
I don't think you've been paying close enough attention. Every change has been either because of feedback or my own intuition, with the statistics only serving to back up those decisions (and not even every decision).
Your image says that 5% of games end in HS3 v. AS1 - 5% human blowouts. While 3% of games end in AS3 vs. HS1 - alien blowouts. That's a huge difference - the humans are getting 60% more blowout victories than the aliens are. 7% of games end in AS3 v HS2 - moderate alien blowout. While 14% of games end in HS3 vs. AS2 - moderate human blowout. Again, a huge difference - the humans are getting 100% more moderate blowouts than the aliens are. And many of the ALIEN blowouts are not alien-caused - they're human-caused (deconning, failed move, the reactor-doesn't-work bug, etc.). So actually the blowout ratio is even worse than pictured - when the aliens get blown out, it's generally a "fair" blowout, with their base functioning until destroyed, while when the humans get blown out, it's often a self-caused problem where the humans eliminate their own base and then run around screaming and getting eaten for a while.
Stages aren't a reliable way of determining quick annihilation, utter domination, "blowouts", "owning", or whatever terminology you want to use; since the game might end quickly before either team reaches stage 3; and since aliens take more to advance stages (for balance reasons).
Everyone is telling you that the experienced players play aliens much more often, and you've never addressed that, or you intend to "balance" the game including a massive subsidy assuming a noob human team, which is a terrible idea.
[Citation needed] (I can list several counterexamples, even when I assume that your selection of "everyone" is limited to experienced GPP players. In fact, I don't recall any experienced GPP player complaining of team selection bias; I could be wrong.)
I myself admit to favoring aliens (~90% of time), but I haven't seen anybody else play aliens significantly more than humans (I'm aware of an experienced player who has never played aliens since the beginning of phase 5, to even that out). I play aliens much more often than humans not to skew the stats (which it may have done if there were no players who favored humans), but simply because I enjoy them more, perhaps because I play better with aliens. Looking at the stats of a couple other experienced players, I've found about (~40% alien; ~60% human), a difference, but not too huge. But I've also seen rather unskilled players slightly favor aliens. It is possible that aliens are generally more popular (regardless of skill).
I've not seen a significant team selection bias towards aliens outside myself, but I don't want to go through the effort of backing this up (and finding out whether this is true or not).
There do exist players who deliberately attempt to skew the stats towards the humans:
Is the game data you use for your final stats when looking at each phase more strict that just tremstats? For example, the April Fools maps was extremely unbalanced and should be omitted. Also, more importantly, I noticed that there was a player that played on humans when no one else around and won a crap ton of games with no one else on the server by just killing the alien base. I don't know if he/she plans on doing this often, but if so, the stats for this phase could quite skewed. Perhaps you should only count if there is a certain amount of players on the server, such as 4.
Fortunately, these games were filtered out. Unfortunately, tremstats does no such automatic filtering, as far as I know.
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I myself admit to favoring aliens (~90% of time), but I haven't seen anybody else play aliens significantly more than humans
*Cough*
Tremulous is all about blowouts. They happen inevitably as the result of poor starting play. I wouldn't worry about them @jellicle. Tremulous isn't like a baseball game. If you do poorly at the beginning, you will suffer for it later regardless of how well you do right after.
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Firstly, yes, if you throw out all of the alien wins, then statistically humans will be winning 100%
u've forgotten draws xD
considering aliens were the overpowered race there
in 1.1, aliens were overpowered ??? btw u played with noob humans or something ?
against a good rifle, a dretch dies in 4 seconds, not more !
and a goon alone is totally helpless when there are 3 s1 humans with shotgun, he can kill one at best, but no more (assuming they're good)
humans were much stronger than aliens in 1.1 and in 1.2, it becomes almost unplayable for aliens !
Goon in 1.2 is real shit, he has to come really close of the human to chomp him and if the h knows a bit how to dodge...
But that's just what i think.
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It's widely known that aliens were the stronger race in 1.1. I played it for 2 or 3 years before GPP, so I've played against noobs and pros alike. The tyrant being a tank was one of the main reasons for the imbalance. Your goon example is ridiculous. Because it takes 3 humans vs 1 goon to get a likely kill, that makes humans overpowered? lol.
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Are these stats for the current phase?
Fresh as the moment I posted. Sorry for not bussing them out earlier; I was still waiting for something imbalanced enough to warrant more gameplay changes. As of yet I haven't seen any.
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@equi : ok but as i said dretch hardly gets one evo against good hummies.
And when he can evolve to goon, or he rush them and gets fastly owned, or he sits all the game in his base or try a lame rc jump.
why ? because human teamplay is a lot easier than alien's : aliens often block themselves in corridors and sometimes teamkill whereas hummies arn't very large and often attack in 5 or 6 people group. in this configuration, a :dragoon: dies in about 5 secondsin 1.1. nvm in 1.2...
but i'm talking about LAGGED trem and vs good players (maybe that on unlagged it's not the same but i have some doubts)
in trem 1.1
s1 vs s1 = better for humans (since dretch sux)
s2 vs s2 = better for humans
s3 vs s3 = better for aliens
in trem 1.2
s1 vs s1 = better for humans
s2 vs s2 = better for humans
s3 vs s3 = better for humans
goon is real shit, mara is playable and basi isn't so bad in 1vs1
Because it takes 3 humans vs 1 goon to get a likely kill, that makes humans overpowered? lol.
just a kill ? killing a goon means 1 more kill to s2 (and when hs2 vs as1 or as2 it becomes hard for aliens to play) and that goon lose the evos he used and become a dretch back (unless he has been fed).
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@equi : ok but as i said dretch hardly gets one evo against good hummies.
And when he can evolve to goon, or he rush them and gets fastly owned, or he sits all the game in his base or try a lame rc jump.
why ? because human teamplay is a lot easier than alien's : aliens often block themselves in corridors and sometimes teamkill whereas hummies arn't very large and often attack in 5 or 6 people group. in this configuration, a :dragoon: dies in about 5 secondsin 1.1. nvm in 1.2...
but i'm talking about LAGGED trem and vs good players (maybe that on unlagged it's not the same but i have some doubts)
in trem 1.1
s1 vs s1 = better for humans (since dretch sux)
s2 vs s2 = better for humans
s3 vs s3 = better for aliens
in trem 1.2
s1 vs s1 = better for humans
s2 vs s2 = better for humans
s3 vs s3 = better for humans
goon is real shit, mara is playable and basi isn't so bad in 1vs1
Because it takes 3 humans vs 1 goon to get a likely kill, that makes humans overpowered? lol.
just a kill ? killing a goon means 1 more kill to s2 (and when hs2 vs as1 or as2 it becomes hard for aliens to play) and that goon lose the evos he used and become a dretch back (unless he has been fed).
I disagree. In 1.2 as3 vs hs3, aliens definitley have the upper hand, with tyrant and hives.
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I'm going to have to also disagree with your S1. S1 vs S1 gives aliens the advantage due to the humans not having helmets. S2 vs S2 in 1.1 gave humans a big advantage, but I'd say the gap has gotten a lot closer in 1.2 with the beefed up adv mara and adv goon being available.
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And the goon is a really strong alien in 1.2 making stages 1 and 2 not so human-biased as you say.
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Finally been playing 1.2 long enough that I can toss my two cents in, and that is:
Aliens were broken in 1.1. Humans (by way of alien nerfs) are broken in 1.2.
And l love you guys for making both, but two wrongs do not make a right.
In other words, there's gotta be a middle ground here. Personally, I'd love it if my Mara had its bite back. The SLIGHTLY longer range makes a BIG difference, especially when you're dealing with lagged.
How about making both slash and bite available? You know, like how the humans can switch between primary weapon and blaster.
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You don't throw in anything helpful though. Why are humans broken in your opinion?´
And I have no idea what is the difference between bite and slash. There's only one such attack you can make with any alien. Others are special attacks such as zap or gas.
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Bite = dretch
Slash = tyrant/mara/basi (I think)
chomp = goon
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In kill messages:
Bite = dretch
Swipe = basi
Claw = mara
Chomp = goon
Maul = rant
The names of these have not changed since 1.1.
In 1.2 Gameplay Changes (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0) they are called either bite or slash. Mara 'slash' range has been reduced from 96 -> 80.
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In kill messages:
The names of these have not changed since 1.1.
Yes, they have:
http://tremulous.net/manual/#x1-40002.1 (http://tremulous.net/manual/#x1-40002.1)
^Here the attack for all aliens besides Rant is refered to as "BITE".
In 1.2 Changes, it is stated that all aliens now have a "SLASH" attack with a shorter range than bite and a wider attack radius.
I find that the slash attack's shortened range and wider radius lead to a lot of accidental bleeding and, according to a lot of pub-server players, I'm not alone on this.
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Why are humans broken in your opinion?´
As I said, the humans are broken by way of the aliens' nerfing:
An s1 human using an MG can now kill a dretch 4 times faster than it takes for a dretch to kill that same naked human, etc. etc.
You can find all of my arguments against the nerfing of aliens in the most of the previous users' posts, which is why I didn't think that what I was saying required much reiteration.
...But here's some anyway.
:human: 4x < :dretch:
P.S.
Sorry about the double posting. It's late and my head hurts from dodging lucy-spam.
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I don't think it matters at all what the attack is called, it still works pretty much the same way. Only changes afaik are:
base slash range reduced 96 -> 80
slash width increased 12 -> 14
I've had no problems with mara teambleeding (playing unlagged).
Maybe you need to play more 1.2 before commenting. Rifle vs dretch really isn't nearly as bad.
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I don't see anything wrong with the alien healing rate. Aliens have better healing rate than 1.1 with booster and basi, but now they are less self-dependent, as it should be. I don't think aliens are disadvantaged in S1. The S1 :dragoon: and :marauder: do well even against s2 humans, and have a huge advantage vs s1 humans. As for :dretch: vs :human:, the :human: should have the advantage if the dretch decides to run in a straight line towards the human, considering the :dretch: has better mobility, stealth, and a radar. Plus they are a bigger nuisance in groups in s2/s3 than naked rifleman. S2 grants humans the much needed survivability to not be killed instantly. :tyrant: can take on groups of humans and is almost impossible to kill alone. and about your suggestion to double alien structure HP and damage, you are only trolling since that point.
I don't see where you're coming from by saying Aliens are weaker than Humans.
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Why are humans broken in your opinion?´
As I said, the humans are broken by way of the aliens' nerfing:
An s1 human using an MG can now kill a dretch 4 times faster than it takes for a dretch to kill that same naked human, etc. etc.
You can find all of my arguments against the nerfing of aliens in the most of the previous users' posts, which is why I didn't think that what I was saying required much reiteration.
...But here's some anyway.
:human: 4x < :dretch:
P.S.
Sorry about the double posting. It's late and my head hurts from dodging lucy-spam.
Excuse me, what? First you say that aliens have been nerfed too much, then you imply that a single dretch is better than 4 humans? Which one now is it?
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I agree that I might just need to play more 1.2, considering I was SO used to playing 1.1 Mara and now it can't help but feel a bit awkward when half of my attacks aren't landing.
The thing about a game like Trem is it's all about the balance: Lucy must be balanced against Rant, S2 Human with helm and armor must be balanced by the Advanced Mara's increased rate of strike, etc., etc. I know that the dretch is faster/smaller than the human. It can also move soundlessly and wall-walk; meaning it has to be balanced out by the humans' better base defense, ranged attack, and faster rate of fire.
To me, the s1 vs. s1 stats were already perfectly balanced in 1.1 and didn't really need much tampering. I know others disagree. That is the way of the world.
I actually like the nerfing of Rants, because it forces s3 aliens to play more creatively. I also like the Mara’s new wall-bounce.
Still, from my point of view it seems that the alien's were only hindered by most of their changes while the humans were given nothing but perks, except for their rets which now suck (though Dretches can't take :turret: out anymore which is, in itself, kind of lame.)
As for the “difference-between-bite-and-slash” debate, I think it’s obvious what they are talking about:
Bite is farther forward and straight ahead and slash/swipe is farther back and has a wider radius.
That’s why the 1.1 Rant’s primary attack was so wide while all of the other aliens had a small radius. So many people referred to the other alien attacks as “slash” that it just sort of stuck. But in 1.2 Changes it says “All Aliens NOW have a slash attack with a reduced length and wider radius...” You know, because it SLASHES across the screen?.
:human: 4x < :dretch:
Excuse me, what? First you say that aliens have been nerfed too much, then you imply that a single dretch is better than 4 humans? Which one now is it?
You are right. What I meant was:
:human: 4x (faster) > :dretch:
Like I said, I wasn't in the best state of mind while posting that and of course it WAS labeled as a reiteration so you already knew what I meant.
Thanks, though, for having such a trite response. It makes me feel a whole lot better about myself.
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No, classes do NOT need an exact equivalent in the opposite team, it just has to be balanced overall.
Aliens got plenty of perks too: gas, grab, zap chain, barb splash, pounce, trample, hive, barri, smaller bboxes, etc. Start using them. The turrets just need to be built differently; they work just fine, if not better, than before.
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No, classes do NOT need an exact equivalent in the opposite team, it just has to be balanced overall.
"It's a bird, it's a plane... No, it's Super Knit-Picker!"
Of course EACH class doesn't need an EXACT equivalent, which is not what I said. I was merely referencing examples of what I thought helped balance the various stages. I mean, why do you think things like stages matter? Because the team with the higher stage has a better chance of winning, do to the "imbalance" it causes.
The subject that I was referring to in my previous post was specifically the S1 balance between dretch and naked human. And YES, these two classes NEED to be exactly balanced. Otherwise, the game wouldn't work.
[/quote]
Aliens got plenty of perks too: gas, grab, zap chain, barb splash, pounce, trample, hive, barri, smaller bboxes, etc. Start using them. The turrets just need to be built differently; they work just fine, if not better, than before.
[/quote]
You forgot boosters, trappers, and regenerating health (which are my personal favorites ;))
And, yeah, thanks for the advice. Although I have no idea why you're giving it.
I never said the aliens didn't have any "perks". My comment about Dretches not being able to take out rets was specifically referring to DRETCHES. I know the other classes are better.
That's why players try to collect evos. So they can evolve more efficient attacks.
I mean, god, have you even PLAYED this game before?!
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The thing about a game like Trem is it's all about the balance: Lucy must be balanced against Rant, S2 Human with helm and armor must be balanced by the Advanced Mara's increased rate of strike, etc., etc.
Of course EACH class doesn't need an EXACT equivalent, which is not what I said. I was merely referencing examples of what I thought helped balance the various stages. I mean, why do you think things like stages matter? Because the team with the higher stage has a better chance of winning, do to the "imbalance" it causes.<- you just got promoted to Captain.
The subject that I was referring to in my previous post was specifically the S1 balance between dretch and naked human. And YES, these two classes NEED to be exactly balanced. Otherwise, the game wouldn't work.
Sooo... only some classes need to have an equivalent? IMO, no, the abilities of 1 team are partially countered by all abilities of the other team at the same stage, not any specific ones. And chainsuit would be a closer opponent to rant. Dretch doesn't have to be exactly balanced with rifle, in s1 maras and goons kill all humans similarly to how any humans (with any weapon, not skill lvl) can kill dretches.
Still, from my point of view it seems that the alien's were only hindered by most of their changes while the humans were given nothing but perks
And, yeah, thanks for the advice. Although I have no idea why you're giving it.
I never said the aliens didn't have any "perks". My comment about Dretches not being able to take out rets was specifically referring to DRETCHES. I know the other classes are better.
Gave the advice since you talked like you hadn't figured out how to use most of the positive changes. I never commented on dretches vs rets specifically.
But, if you want one: rets had to be changed for obvious reasons. And with the new rets, dretches were way too strong against them, so they got changed too.
Also try to be less offensive, Captain Obvious.
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If you're offended, I'm sorry. Especially considering all I was doing was imitating the exact same condescending tone you had in your earlier post...
Aliens got plenty of perks too: gas, grab, zap chain, barb splash, pounce, trample, hive, barri, smaller bboxes, etc. Start using them.
I think you might be taking this whole "opinions on an internet forum" thing a bit too seriously. I'm just some nerd who likes to wax intellectual about video games. And then you come along and make a comment that bypasses all of my points just to imply that I can't use advanced alien attacks. By the way, almost every one of those attacks you mentioned come at S2/S3. When I was talking about dretches, I was CLEARLY referring to the balance of S1.
Sooo... only some classes need to have an equivalent? IMO, no, the abilities of 1 team are partially countered by all abilities of the other team at the same stage, not any specific ones. And chainsuit would be a closer opponent to rant. Dretch doesn't have to be exactly balanced with rifle, in s1 maras and goons kill all humans similarly to how any humans (with any weapon, not skill lvl) can kill dretches.
It's not the class, it's the ability. And yes, their abilities balance the game. That's why I said "the Adv. Mara's increased rate of strike". Rant is self-explanatory and the lucy is the only weapon that a lone noob could possibly use to take down a Rant (who is also most likely a noob). There's your balance: the noob-factor + weapon/alien class compared to the opposing team's equivalent. Just like you said, a naked human with no skill SHOULD still be able to kill a Dretch. One that's headed straight for him, at least.
Honestly, it sounds like you're arguing the exact same point as me. You just don't like the words I used.
Again, I'm sorry. Honestly though, this is a stupid conversation. Even by internet forum standards.
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Of course EACH class doesn't need an EXACT equivalent, which is not what I said. I was merely referencing examples of what I thought helped balance the various stages. I mean, why do you think things like stages matter? Because the team with the higher stage has a better chance of winning, do to the "imbalance" it causes.
The subject that I was referring to in my previous post was specifically the S1 balance between dretch and naked human. And YES, these two classes NEED to be exactly balanced. Otherwise, the game wouldn't work.
it's not just about stages, it's also about credits and evos: why does the dretch have be balanced with the naked human? how many s1 humans can a decent s1 goon kill?
I mean, god, have you even PLAYED this game before?!
that's a bit uncalled for
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You answered your own question: Why do Dretches and naked humans need to be balanced?
Because it's all about the evos. How can a Dretch get the three evos to become a goon if he can't kill naked humans?
I feel the opening-game balance was more accurate in 1.1. Again, that's just my opinion.
"that's a bit uncalled for"
Did you read the comment before that one? All I was doing was implying, in a more satirical tone, exactly what Phoenix implied of me; that I didn't know how to play the game because of one random comment I made that wasn't even related to my main point.
That's why I tried to make the connection sound as absurd as possible. Maybe I should just start labeling my sarcasm.
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If you're offended, I'm sorry. Especially considering all I was doing was imitating the exact same condescending tone you had in your earlier post...All I was implying, in a more satirical tone, exactly what Phoenix implied of me..
You still don't need to be a dick about it, especially considering your post was erroneous at that point.
I think you might be taking this whole "opinions on an internet forum" thing a bit too seriously. I'm just some nerd who likes to wax intellectual about video games. And then you come along and make a comment that bypasses all of my points just to imply that I can't use advanced alien attacks. By the way, almost every one of those attacks you mentioned come at S2/S3. When I was talking about dretches, I was CLEARLY referring to the balance of S1.
Wow, you're really stuck up on that. Even if you were clearly referring to the balance at S1, the point still remains. Does any pair of two abilities, ANY pair, need to be balanced against *only* each other?
Sooo... only some classes need to have an equivalent? IMO, no, the abilities of 1 team are partially countered by all abilities of the other team at the same stage, not any specific ones. And chainsuit would be a closer opponent to rant. Dretch doesn't have to be exactly balanced with rifle, in s1 maras and goons kill all humans similarly to how any humans (with any weapon, not skill lvl) can kill dretches.
It's not the class, it's the ability. And yes, their abilities balance the game. That's why I said "the Adv. Mara's increased rate of strike". Rant is self-explanatory and the lucy is the only weapon that a lone noob could possibly use to take down a Rant (who is also most likely a noob). There's your balance: the noob-factor + weapon/alien class compared to the opposing team's equivalent. Just like you said, a naked human with no skill SHOULD still be able to kill a Dretch. One that's headed straight for him, at least.
Dretches and naked rifles do not need to be balanced by themselves, at least in combat ability. At the moment, a dretch killing a human gets more than a human killing a dretch. And even if you could argue that contest was not balanced, you still need to explain why the overall game cannot be balanced because of that. Consider this, with each team given nothing but rifles and dretches/grangers, it is nigh impossible for either team to win, because so much of the dretch vs rifle contest depends on the circumstances (such as terrain) before the contest begins, and when you're attacking the enemy base, you're usually not fighting in favorable circumstances. Are you sure that all of Tremulous hinges on this contest being balanced? I think that is quite a claim to make.
Balancing the game for noobs is not good. I'd rather play a game that turns noobs into more experienced players.
How can a dretch get the three evos to become a goon if he can't kill naked humans
If he can't kill naked humans, its his own fault. Normally people just feed more evos than they get, rather than being completely unable to kill anyone. However, if he can get to a better class for a while he'll be fine. Don't forget partial evos!
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I know there is also the human factor. That is always obviously going to matter when you're talking about a game that is played by people.
When did I say "only each other" about the class-balances?
I really don’t think Trem is as noob-friendly a game as you think. And if you believe that balance would make the game hard for beginners, then that's fine. I think you're wrong. I think that, without a precise balance between these two very different opposing forces, the game would be unplayable by anyone. Not just noobs.
If you don't agree, that's fine. But to tell me I can't be a dick to someone who went out of their way to be a dick to me is just ri-“dick”-ulous, not to mention the fact that most people on here can't be anything else. Maybe if he had tried to debate my actual point instead of just referencing one statement that was in parenthesis and part of a response to someone else out of context solely so he could make a slight against my alleged playing skills, I would have probably been less condescending to him.
Also, it DOES matter what I was saying about S1 vs S1 because that was the comment he responded to.
What if you said “I like cake…”
And then I said, “Yeah but what if that cake has been urinated on? You like pee-cake? You’re a freak.”
Now, would your argument be:
A.) “I never said I liked pee-cake.”
OR
B.) “Man, that’s a good point. I AM a freak. Thanks, dude. You’re REALLY cool, you know that? We should hang out.”
Lastly, F50, I think your heart is in the right place. You’re trying to keep this forum free of obvious trolls who just want to shit all over everyone else’s opinions and I commend you for that. I know how the internet, and specifically this forum, can be. You even did the same for me when I was just a noob looking for answers on that Strategy Guide thread I necro-ed in Strategies and Tactics. And, for that, I am still thankful.
I can also assure you that I am no troll. Trem is, hands down, my favorite game and the only one I actually bother to make time for anymore. And all I wanted to do was give my feedback in the “Feedback” section. But, alas, my comment about Maras has now most likely been lost in all of this trite bickering. And thinking about it like that just makes me sad.
All of this energy that I could have spent PLAYING Trem has been wasted on this.
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I made the exact same observations as the OP over a year ago. But people like 1.2 and that's that.
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I made the exact same observations as the OP over a year ago. But people like 1.2 and that's that.
Still, it's nice to know that at least SOMEBODY agrees with me.
And if it's too late for our 1.2 feedback to effect anything, then at least there's still 1.1, which is already a great game if you ask me.
Let's just hope the servers stick around.
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I made the exact same observations as the OP over a year ago. But people like 1.2 and that's that.
Still, it's nice to know that at least SOMEBODY agrees with me.
And if it's too late for our 1.2 feedback to effect anything, then at least there's still 1.1, which is already a great game if you ask me.
Let's just hope the servers stick around.
I agree with you that the dretch should be boosted or rifle nerfed (rifle as a free weapon is really too good in my opinion) to make the start more balanced. Other than that, disagree. Turrets are fine as they are (just place them well!) and maras too.
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I agree with you that the dretch should be boosted or rifle nerfed (rifle as a free weapon is really too good in my opinion) to make the start more balanced. Other than that, disagree. Turrets are fine as they are (just place them well!) and maras too.
I did some more building as a human in 1.2 and I'm starting to understand the new rets a bit better. I like how they force the H-players to not rely on base defense so much and they DO work quite well when placed properly. So, on that point, I must concede.
I think what a lot of people don't realize about the opening-game balance of 1.2 is that, because the Dretch can longer attack structures of any kind, the game itself still relies on the humans coming out of their base to attack.
Sure, the rets take longer to spin up so the H-base itself is not as impenetrable as it once was. But, with the right builder, humans can still camp as long as they're willing.
Let's say that a single naked S1 human is charging the base of a bunch of noob-aliens who can't Dretch for shit.
In this scenario, the naked human can walk into the A-base and theoretically destroy everything in his path:
Their tubes, their spawns, even the Overmind itself.
Now flip these factors so that the humans are noobs and one leet Alien player is on the attack. No matter how skilled of a player he is, if he's a Dretch, he still can't actually effect anything. His best bet is to get a few kills and evolve into something that can actually effect the human base, but then he still has to retreat out of range of the humans to evolve.
In 1.1, this was totally justified by the fact that Aliens were just a bit too good at pwning and even decent humans needed a base with some breathing room if they were going to stay alive in S1. I also understand that a lot of the changes in 1.2 were meant to address exactly that issue. I just think the alien nerfing was a bit too much compensation and now their class is just as much the underdog as Humans were in 1.1 games.
And what nobody really seems to want to address is the issue of weaponry. Sure, Alien attacks SOUND cool on paper. But they are another thing all together to pull off, in game. I mean, real humans (as in us) invented ranged weapons for a reason: It made warfare so much easier.
If the other guy has to come right up next to you to hit you and all the while you can just blast him with bullets (or lasers, or lucies, or fire...), that other motherfucker is as sure as dead unless he is:
1.) Fast
2.) A Good Aim
3.) Great at blind dodging with his back turned.
Regenerating health wouldn't hurt either.
Though, don't get me wrong. These same reason are why I LOVE playing Aliens. When I pull off a 3-kill Mara-slaughter in the A.T.C.S. hallway while dodging fire from two different lucies and an MG and I manage to retreat with only 3hp and like 7 evos, I feel pretty damn badass.
Still, that's why Aliens require so much health to be a viable opponent. If the aliens can't stay alive long enough to withstand more than three seconds of a single enemy's attack then, to quote the great American writer William Faulkner, they're all just "sound and fury, signifying nothing."
...Okay, I think I MIGHT actually be done trying to explain myself on this one. I hope I am, anyway.
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I really doubt that's a problem... If humans camp, just build them in, don't feed and wait for evos (every 2 minutes) and occasionally kill the ones coming out. In maps like Niveus, Arachnid and Karith aliens can just take the default base down be there humans or not.
I don't have any problems playing aliens and I really wonder what that "nerf" you're talking about is. Goons are perhaps even more powerful than before with the powered pounce, it's easier to hit with a marauder, tyrant still is the big tank.
I suggest you still play more and explore GPP 1.2 thoroughly. Aliens are used like it was in 1.1, attack-retreat-attack-retreat... and so on. And you hit and aim at humans like you used to do.
And lastly:
1.) Fast
2.) A Good Aim
Aren't those what the human needs too to kill the alien in the first place?
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But in 1.2 Changes it says “All Aliens NOW have a slash attack with a reduced length and wider radius...” You know, because it SLASHES across the screen?.
I can assure you that there is no intended significance in the use of either term. Whatever the model for a class does when you attack is what is supposed to be used. They're all just melee-range hitscan attacks to me.
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I don't really understand the new rant. His new trample is slow and with all reduces he's probably forced to camp behind corners instead of being human killer :(
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I don't really understand the new rant. His new trample is slow and with all reduces he's probably forced to camp behind corners instead of being human killer :(
Every change made to the trample was an improvement, except that you can't charge it by walking into a wall any more (and possibly that it no longer does locational damage). Maybe you're not paying attention to the charge bar and just always waiting for it to automatically release? It's basically now the most powerful attack in the game in the right situations.
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Every change made to the trample was an improvement, except that you can't charge it by walking into a wall any more (and possibly that it no longer does locational damage). Maybe you're not paying attention to the charge bar and just always waiting for it to automatically release? It's basically now the most powerful attack in the game in the right situations.
That's a big complaint for some. A lot of people will likely complain that A are too situational.
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I think trample is quite powerful, in many situations. It's the HP nerf I dislike. Rather it cost more evos, and keep the 50HP