Tremulous Forum
Media => Mapping Center => Topic started by: swamp-cecil on June 20, 2010, 07:21:08 pm
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i am working on my 2nd good map (first map unreleased due to lazyness), and in gtk rafiant, i let my brother make his own (terrible) map, but then afterwards he pressed a button and in G.T.K. Radiant, every object that is far away is invisible until i get close. my second is that ho i make an ivisible top of the map like in atcs?i did search, but i could not find it.
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1. Click "Cubic clip the camera view" (shortcut in Netradiant is \). It's somewhere on toolbox.
2. What do you mean? Sky? Invisible wall?
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invisible wall. like in atcs outside, you cannot go above the forcefields out into nowhereness because of the wall.
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my second is that ho i make an ivisible top of the map like in atcs?i did search, but i could not find it.
Use metalclip or something. If you don't want bugs crawling on the invisible ceiling you might want to make you own.
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common/clip - simple invisible wall
common/slick - invisbile wall + it acts like ice (if it's wall aliens can't wallwalk on it)
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Yes but does slick show marks? Slick doesn't have noimpact though. You may want that. Here is my forcefeild shader for nintendo_land-
textures/<your map>/forcefeild
{
surfaceparm nolightmap
surfaceparm nodraw
surfaceparm trans
surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm noimpact
surfaceparm slick
}
However, I could be wrong.
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??? code ???? im confused, and i only have 3 common-trem; nobuild, noalienbuild and nohumanbuild. i dont know code and i never heared of metal clip
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Slick doesn't show bullet marks, no.
and thats the code for a shader cecil.
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The best solution is: karith/solidslick
No "coding" required. Just click.
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dont get me started with shader code. if you do, i dont know any commands or how to install/use it.
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The best solution is: karith/solidslick
No "coding" required. Just click.
+1, people are finally catching on. :D
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+1, people are finally catching on. :D
-1 stop encouraging mediocre maps
No but seriously don't be lazy. If you want to make outstanding maps (not that I'm an outstanding map maker) that people will want to play more then once take the 30 minutes required to learn how to make a shader file. It will be less of a pain in the ass and a lot quicker when you got really specific properties for your texture. Good luck :)
BTW: I didn't decon any of your turrets. I don't play that childish game.
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No but seriously don't be lazy. If you want to make outstanding maps (not that I'm an outstanding map maker) that people will want to play more then once take the 30 minutes required to learn how to make a shader file. It will be less of a pain in the ass and a lot quicker when you got really specific properties for your texture. Good luck :)
What? I would rather people use that pre-made shader than try to make their own and fail. It takes less work and it is already in a default map so you don't need to worry about packing it. Make use of what is before you instead of taking the trouble to do it yourself. ::)
"You don't do arithmetic by hand every time to be an expert mathematician."
Also, I'm fairly certain after rereading the OP that swamp-cecil is referring to a skybox.
@swamp_cecil: create a caulk box and texture each of the inward sides with atcs-->skybox_s. (Karith, nexus6, transit, niveus, etc also have skybox shaders you can use.)
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What? I would rather people use that pre-made shader than try to make their own and fail. It takes less work and it is already in a default map so you don't need to worry about packing it. Make use of what is before you instead of taking the trouble to do it yourself. ::)
"You don't do arithmetic by hand every time to be an expert mathematician."
Also, I'm fairly certain after rereading the OP that swamp-cecil is referring to a skybox.
@swamp_cecil: create a caulk box and texture each of the inward sides with atcs-->skybox_s. (Karith, nexus6, transit, niveus, etc also have skybox shaders you can use.)
Well I guess that separates the software developers from the software users. The lower class from the upper class.
And no one does math by hand. If you do then I appologise. You should probably use pre-built shaders.
Make me a brush that is opaque but goes invisible when you get close, is slick, cushioned, has lightmap (casts a shadow), and wobbles like water but is not watter. Also, make a particle system that ejects unicorn images in every direction that always faces you no matter what angle you look at and has transparent edges around the unicorn so you don't have an ugly white square covering other parts of the map.
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1350/impossiblebrush.jpg)
Cecil, anyone can make a map. You ought to make a cool one :)
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off topic:
BTW: I didn't decon any of your turrets. I don't play that childish game.
How does it even work? I didn't see any help text or controls regarding the turrets. Google didn't help, either.
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Make me a brush that is opaque but goes invisible when you get close, is slick, cushioned, has lightmap (casts a shadow), and wobbles like water but is not watter. Also, make a particle system that ejects unicorn images in every direction that always faces you no matter what angle you look at and has transparent edges around the unicorn so you don't have an ugly white square covering other parts of the map.
And why/where would you use this shader, exactly?
Also, is it just me, or is anyone else having a difficult time trying to figure out what point MrFish attempting to make?
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And why/where would you use this shader, exactly?
That is neither here nor there. But if I decided I want this texture I could make it. My trees, bushes, vines, cage walls, rope bridges, store items, and spider webs in nintendo_land use no custom shaders. Among other new features that I will not share/spoil. I try not to go back to my map but it's a good example of what you can't do without knowing about shaders. And why limit yourself to atcs like maps (even it uses custom shaders!).
So yes, that is completely irrelevant.
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http://www.heppler.com/shader/ (http://www.heppler.com/shader/)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af72/WinterSoldierZero/motivational-lols-13.jpg)
If the OP wants to learn how to do his own custom shaders that's up to him, and I definitely do not condone doing that, it's just takes more patience and learning.
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[sarcasm]Well that's a great way to back out of it. My respect for you has never been greater![/sarcasm]
I don't want to spam your topic cecil. I am reluctant to say he is right for one thing, that you may choose whatever suits you. Try playing gauntlet, then shader wars. That will give you a good compare and contrast.
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hey you know all in a days work :D
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Hey Fish, have you seen any of face's maps? They're pretty awesome, some of he best out there. I suspect he knows a thing or two.
[/offtopic]
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Hey Fish, have you seen any of face's maps? They're pretty awesome, some of he best out there. I suspect he knows a thing or two.
Firstly, which ones?
Secondly, he should not be telling people that they shouldn't learn to use shaders because there is an "easier way out". I don't recommend that anyone should reinvent the wheel, but this is far from it. Learning to make and use shaders is as vital to building a good map (not just a map, a good one) as concrete is to building a good house. It's usable for a while but people would rather live in a house that won't kill them. I don't care what your opinion is and I certainly don't care what maps he's built. This has nothing to do with what he has done but what cecil could do.
Shaders are very simple. I know a few programming languages and can tell you there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't add more power to your map by taking 30 minutes to learn this markup language.
It's as simple as this-
textures/yourmap/ice
{
make slippery
don't emit noise
don't cast a shadow
emit light (like reflection)
{
put another slightly transparent texture on top
move that texture around to make a glass effect
}
}
DONE
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Secondly, he should not be telling people that they shouldn't learn to use shaders because there is an "easier way out".
Oh lets see, oh right:
If the OP wants to learn how to do his own custom shaders that's up to him, and I definitely do not condone doing that...
If he wants to do his own shaders, that is totally awesome, and I hope he does. I just don't see the point in forcing people to make their own when there is a perfectly fine one which already exists for the same purpose...
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I just don't see the point in forcing people to make their own when there is a perfectly fine one which already exists for the same purpose...
He can do whatever he wants, this is what I've been telling him the entire time. But don't tell them they should settle for what is given to them. I don't support withholding knowledge from people who may want to learn (whether he does or not still has not been stated). And the purpose is simple, once you've learned it you can do much more with your own knowledge then what is supplied.
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He asked how to do something, we gave him the easiest route to do so. If you want to take the time and teach him how to work with shaders, go ahead. No one's going to stop you. Your community thanks you for your service.
The point I am trying to make is that the use of custom shaders does not always lead to good maps, nor does the use of premade shaders always produce mediocre maps.
I use custom shaders for my maps, but they are almost always based off of other preexisting shaders. Shaders are basically topping for the cake, but first you must learn how to make a decent cake.
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He asked how to do something, we gave him the easiest route to do so. If you want to take the time and teach him how to work with shaders, go ahead. No one's going to stop you. Your community thanks you for your service.
The point I am trying to make is that the use of custom shaders does not always lead to good maps, nor does the use of premade shaders always produce mediocre maps.
I use custom shaders for my maps, but they are almost always based off of other preexisting shaders. Shaders are basically topping for the cake, but first you must learn how to make a decent cake.
Ok, well lets rap this up because internet debates are pointless and neither of us see or care what the others opinion/point is. I think you are wrong, ignorant, and a foolish person. You probably feel the same about me, that's fair.
The easiest route is not the best route and I will say that is simply lazy. Shaders can make or break a map. If you use them poorly or don't use them all, chances you broke it. Knowing how to use shaders will boost your chances of success in making a good map and since you are going through the effort to make one you might want to make one right. I say, learn to use and make shaders. You say, use the bare minimum that you can find in the default collection and others maps. I'm not loosing sleep over it.
Nuff said.
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You say, use the bare minimum that you can find in the default collection and others maps.
Because 99% of the time you don't have to look anywhere else. All you have to do is make some minor modifications to the original and you're set. :P
Internet debates are not pointless. They might be pointless for those involved, but others who read them can learn (some of the time).
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Alien! Magazine front cover headline reports:
Your Face and MrFish decided to break up today citing artistic differences.
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BUT OMG I MUST ARGUE MY POINT ACROSS UNTIL I MAKE HIM UNDERSTAND
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Fish: face obviously understands what I was always taught as one of the golden rules of programming: copy/paste is your friend.
If you can take one hunk of code and with a little modification make it work for you, it's far better and a more effiecient use of your time.
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Fish: face obviously understands what I was always taught as one of the golden rules of programming: copy/paste is your friend.
If you can take one hunk of code and with a little modification make it work for you, it's far better and a more effiecient use of your time.
You can't make changes to something you do not know. And this is assuming you already know how to get into the shader file. If you think copy/paste is a good game-plan for programming you will not make it in a competitive environment. No one will hire you. But this is not about jobs, hiring, or even programming (you can't call markup programming. It's markup!). This is much less important then all that.
Again, I disagree. It's your opinion against mine and it's easy to see this is a collosal waste of time for both of us. I don't like getting heated up in a debate that has no evidence, no proofs, and really just opinion. None of this matters until someone decides to pay you for it- then it's obvious who is correct in that situation.
I would like to some up your argument like so- "wurk sux". I've already tried to close this with a respectful conclusion to both sides. What else is there to discuss?
BUT OMG I MUST ARGUE MY POINT ACROSS UNTIL I MAKE HIM UNDERSTAND
Maturity isn't your strong suit, is it?
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You can't make changes to something you do not know. And this is assuming you already know how to get into the shader file.
It's how I learned. :P
BUT OMG I MUST ARGUE MY POINT ACROSS UNTIL I MAKE HIM UNDERSTAND
Maturity isn't your strong suit, is it?
Sounds like your sarcasm detector batteries need a replacement, but I think we both have quite a bit of room for improvement in the maturity department, anyways. :D
We can still be friends, right? I mean, I'm pretty sure we both feel sort of silly for making such a big fuss about shader files. 8)
BTW I don't mean to prove anything but for just FYI here's some links to some of my work, link (http://imn2rc.unvanquished.net/trident/?MD), link (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/135/8/c/Temple_of_the_Trident_Hall_by_cocoapet.jpg), link (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/135/2/6/Temple_of_the_Trident_by_cocoapet.jpg). My most recent map release was quite a while ago but here it is anyways: link (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=10308.0), and a map me and brain collaberated on a couple years ago for the Tremcentral mapping contest: link (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8924.0).
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but I think we both have quite a bit of room for improvement in the maturity department, anyways. :D
For me? How so?
We can still be friends, right? I mean, I'm pretty sure we both feel sort of silly for making such a big fuss about shader files. 8)
I've made no fuss. And I'm sorry but my definition of "friend" is probably much different from your facebook style of "friendship". I generally dislike unlikable people.
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Oh well excuse me. I didn't realize you took the internets so seriously. ::)
I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster.
For me? How so?
Read this thread. Prepare to apply your hand to forehead.
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I won't tell you whose side I'm on because it wouldn't be a good idea. Let's say that one of you has a broader and more mature view of things.
But both of you make correct points:
It's good to learn something new. And it's also good to be as efficient as possible.
*grabs another bag of popcorn*
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Oh well excuse me. I didn't realize you took the internets so seriously. ::)
The internet isn't categorized so broadly that you can say it's serious or not. It depends largely and sometimes entirely on the site and topic. This is a forum for an open source first person shooter game with an alien vs human theme. It is not the most serious of issues but a serious philosophical debate can be derived from the opposing opinions seen in this discussion.
Should you take the easy road at a cost to experience and knowledge?
Pros:
Saves time.
Can assume it's worked for others (tested and proven).
Cons:
Ill prepared.
Difficult to debug.
Becomes very reliant on the community.
Limited on creativity and power.
Feel free to add to the list if you think it's lacking. Don't be biased though, add to each side like I have.
I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster.
How is this science? How am I a monster? Why do you talk utter nonsense?
Read post number 25 of this topic. I have already dismissed the debate. Who brought it back into the light?
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=13688.msg197900#msg197900
Read this thread. Prepare to apply your hand to forehead.
Done. It's only a little more then a one page topic. It shouldn't be hard for you to get some actual examples of my apparent immaturity that would cause me to literally press my hand against my forehead in embarrassment/frustration. I found non, please enlighten me.
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Get ouside and smell... jk lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4siZQkSR7GY
Sorry, obscure reference. I thought everyone knew about portal 2.
Done. It's only a little more then a one page topic. It shouldn't be hard for you to get some actual examples of my apparent immaturity that would cause me to literally press my hand against my forehead in embarrassment/frustration. I found non, please enlighten me.
Because, my good sir, we are having a huge argument about SHADER FILES.
Alien! Magazine front cover headline reports:
Your Face and MrFish decided to break up today citing artistic differences.
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SITUATION A
You have a brush in your map that you want to act as a blue light.
SOLUTION A
You search through Karith's textures.
You find a blue light shader.
You use it.
SITUATION B
You have a brush in your map that you want to act as a light-emitting liquid.
SOLUTION B
You make your own shader.
You use it.
I hate to say it, Fish, because I think you're an intelligent person but, if you used SOLUTION B for SITUATION A, you're redundant and stupid. You slow your workflow and create that much extra (cloned) content by recreating the wheel exactly as it is. There is simply no point in creating a shader if one already exists for what you need. Now, if someone needs an extremely obscure shader they will figure out how to make it. If they can't do that on their own they're not qualified to make maps, anyway. Whenever I need a custom shader (as I've been too lazy to learn the language because I don't map enough for it to be worth it) I check the internet. I'm capable of using a cheat sheet to construct shaders. Everyone in the world is. If they know that there is a way to create custom shaders, they're all set, and will learn whatever they need to learn whenever they need to learn it unless they're content with pumping out (less than) mediocre maps.
TL;DR:
Face is saying that if an asset already exists, use it. Fish is saying that absolutely nothing in your map should be premade because that's lazy and stupid. Okay, so, that's a bit inflated, but the amount of drama here rivals the amount of drama surrounding my senior prom. Which is today. Seriously, kids, wrap it up. ;)
You're both right. The choice between custom and premade is subjective to the situation. Sometimes custom is better, sometimes premade is better. It's simple as that. Go clean your tampons and stop posting.
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Yet again I disagree. You won't always know if it exists and where it exists. And, or me anyway, it takes 15 seconds to make a shader called "blue_light" and set whatever to those specifications.
Seriously, kids, wrap it up........................... Go clean your tampons and stop posting.
Yes.
Because, my good sir, we are having a huge argument about SHADER FILES.
This is a forum for an open source first person shooter game with an alien vs human theme. It is not the most serious of issues but a serious philosophical debate can be derived from the opposing opinions seen in this discussion.
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*crunchcrunchmunchgulp*
*crunchcrunch*
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Good luck at the prom, PB. :P
I'm going to just quit speaking to the brick wall and move on, even if me and MrFish are the only source of entertainment for this forum. *bows to the audience*
Tune in again for more of Tremulous Drama!
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I'm going to just quit speaking to the brick wall and move on, even if me and MrFish are the only source of entertainment for this forum. *bows to the audience*
There is so much I can say right now but I'm fighting myself so that I won't. I'm not going to get caught up in this. I think everyone reading this can see what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg
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lol jking gotcha :D
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This has the potential to fill a few more pages.
*fetches more popcorn*
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This has all been part of my master plan of taking over the galaxy.
Darn, I think someone injected me with truth serum. :(
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This has the potential to fill a few more pages.
*fetches more popcorn*
Haha, well I hope this had some purpose after all. Glad I could entertain but I wouldn't plan on it :P
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MrFish I have to say you made a comment about hiring, but if you ever try to re-invent the wheel every time for every thing, you will be out of a job fast. Efficiency trumps most other things, sorry, and in the case of map-making, I don't think using an already existing shader will make his map any worse, infact, if you want to argue tiny things, it would make the map a little better by not requiring a new shader (that does the exact same thing.)
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0.o!
im not that complex at mapping! particle system? wobble? and worst of all; FLYING UNICORNS!??!?! oh shit! whats a particle shader thingy?
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Moose: You didn't read/comprehend my entire post. I said don't reinvent the wheel.
Cecil:
You finally came out! See what can happen when you leave topics unattended. If you want to make a good map take my advice.
Also, a particle ejector throws out the specified textures from a specific point. With this you can simulate things like smoke, waterfalls, fire, etc. Purely for decoration.
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Cecil: trust me, just borrow premade shaders at first till you understand what shaders do.
It'll make your life way easier.
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Cecil: trust me, just borrow premade shaders at first till you understand what shaders do.
It'll make your life way easier.
Yes, do this.
If you want to make a good map take my advice.
Hahaha. Glad to see we aren't full of ourselves here, and are keeping open minds. ::)
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*rustlenibblecrunchcrunch*
*nibblecrunchmunchgulp*
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Cecil: trust me, just borrow premade shaders at first till you understand what shaders do.
It'll make your life way easier.
And don't worry about learning how to write shaders right away. You'll find most of the ones you need in the default maps.
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Hahaha. Glad to see we aren't full of ourselves here, and are keeping open minds. ::)
A double edged sword?
What an open mind is:
Willing to see the logic of an apposing side, adding to it, accepting it, or rejecting it.
What an open mind is not:
I will believe you because you said it.
And even still, none is of what is being stated is the antithesis of what I've instructed. If you want me to some up what I've said (again and again and again), I surely will.
just borrow premade shaders at first till you understand what shaders do.
Haven't I said that you shouldn't reinvent the wheel? It seems you still don't comprehend what I am saying. Absolutely frustrating!
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Well how about you make a decent example before claiming:
If you want to make a good map take my advice.
???
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This bag does all of a sudden not seem that oversized.
(http://www.busywomensfitness.com/images/popcorn.jpg)
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Well how about you make a decent example before claiming:
If you want to make a good map take my advice.
???
My advice is that you shouldn't rely on everyone elses shaders. You should learn something for once. You shouldn't take the easy way out. Don't be lazy. Work isn't hard. Get a job (ok ok, this one is new. I like it though :P). etc. etc. etc.
Ended this thing twice I guess a third time will come soon. We done yet?
Edit:
Oh also, wtf is going on here?
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8330/weakz.jpg)
Anonymous Karma System: because confrontation is scary!
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How would an un-anonymous karma system be better? More e-penis stroking than necessary, methinks. >.>
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Oh also, wtf is going on here?
[img ]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8330/weakz.jpg[ /img]
Anonymous Karma System: because confrontation is scary!
Welcome to the internet. ;) (I seem to remember from somewhere that you didn't care for that childish game?)
My advice is that you shouldn't rely on everyone elses shaders. You should learn something for once. You shouldn't take the easy way out. Don't be lazy. Work isn't hard.
Why not?
How about learning the basics of mapping before learning something new? There's enough on OP's platter for now I think.
Easy, or efficient?
Why take longer to do something that has the same outcome of something that is much simpler to do and more efficient?
Again, take advantage of what's already there (if you can).
Also, you have -8 now. Thank me. :D (UN-ANONYMOUS YAY)
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*crunchcrunch*
I wish I knew how the turret thing works. Haven't yet found instructions. Or a reply to one of my questions about it. *crunchcrunch*
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Why not?
How about learning the basics of mapping before learning something new? There's enough on OP's platter for now I think.
Easy, or efficient?
Why take longer to do something that has the same outcome of something that is much simpler to do and more efficient?
Again, take advantage of what's already there (if you can).
Missing the point.
Because shaders are extremely easy.
Missing the point.
Missing the point.
Missing the point. Have I ever argued this?
How many times must I go back over this and be willfully ignored. Don't reinvent the wheel. But if you choose not to learn how to make shaders you cannot do anything better then what is already given. I never said, "don't use caulk, instead make the same shader with the same parameters and use it in place of caulk for no apparent reason". I originally said that the forcefeild-type shader he was looking for isn't located in the common shaders folder. And in order to get the effect he was looking for he should use <these> parameters. At which point I supplied my version of a forcefield.
Welcome to the internet. (I seem to remember from somewhere that you didn't care for that childish game?)
I don't play that childish game. You should not rate someone based on whether you agree with their views (free speech and tolerance anyone? Nah, only in theory). However it's not surprising that people would get upset when someone suggests they ought to work harder. That internet only exists on forums inhabited by children ages 12-14. But when you migrated I guess you've decided to bring it with you.
God: I believe after a number of posts you get to give people karma. It's similar to youtubes thumbs up or thumbs down.
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I believe after a number of posts you get to give people karma. It's similar to youtubes thumbs up or thumbs down.
Thank you, Mister! :)
*rustlecrunchcrunchgulp*
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I originally said that the forcefeild-type shader he was looking for isn't located in the common shaders folder. And in order to get the effect he was looking for he should use <these> parameters. At which point I supplied my version of a forcefield.
Oh my God. ATCS.
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I don't play that childish game.
Dude, you don't exactly have much of a choice. You don't have enough posts yet, and when you do, you will realize that the game is too fun not to play.
Haha, PB. Also:
LOL I love/hate how easily we all get offensive around here. This really has to be the worst forum ever for getting along with people
You should not rate someone based on whether you agree with their views (free speech and tolerance anyone?
Free speech you say? On the Internet? On the Tremulous forums? rofl
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Cecil:
You finally came out!
What did he come out of?
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Cecil:
You finally came out!
What did he come out of?
roflolmao
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Face, what on earth are you trying to say? You've said nothing in your post.
Thank you for completely ignoring my previous post and proving my point, that was bolded mind you. I refuse to continue this pointless conversation. If I wanted to argue with willfully ignorant and completely arrogant jerks I would have started a "Does God Exist?" debate with creationists.
Good day to you.
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Face, what on earth are you trying to say? You've said nothing in your post.
Thank you for completely ignoring my previous post and proving my point, that was bolded mind you. I refuse to continue this pointless conversation. If I wanted to argue with willfully ignorant and completely arrogant jerks I would have started a "Does God Exist?" debate with creationists.
Good day to you.
He just clearly said that you don't play that game because you can't play that game.
He then went on to show his appreciation for PB and then made his views on free speech here known.
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How many times must I go back over this and be willfully ignored. Don't reinvent the wheel. But if you choose not to learn how to make shaders you cannot do anything better then what is already given.
Being better than what is already given is pretty darn good. I don't think swamp-cecil has to worry about being better than what's already there just yet. Perhaps when he is, learning how to do custom shaders would be a great thing for him to learn. For now, let's see if he has the patience to start a decent map. :)
When beginning to map, I have learned that it is best to stick with what's already there until you are experienced enough, and have the will and patience to move on to the next step. Forcing a beginner to create custom shaders when they don't need to or didn't ask how to is a good way to make them quit faster than normal.
But we did what's right, and now he has both options to choose from.
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Don't reinvent the wheel. But do create all your own shaders, even if it already exists.
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mooseberry is probably referring in part to this reply by MrFish
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=13688.msg197830#msg197830
in which he discouraged to take the given shader that does exactly what swamp-cecil needs but instead to learn how to make shaders and then to write it himself. The hint to learn to make shaders is right, no questions. But not in that place.
Does anyone want some popcorn?
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(http://www.popcorn-machinesonline.com/images/theater.jpg)
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MrFish is a moron.