Tremulous Forum

General => Feedback => Topic started by: baybal on August 03, 2010, 05:50:45 am

Title: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: baybal on August 03, 2010, 05:50:45 am
1.2 is gonna bring a lot of changes. And I think that in 1.2 developers have made changes that span afar from balance changes, although all the work done yet were labelled as game balancing. In comparison to 0.9, 1.0 and subsequently 1.1 it feels like a different game, as the gameplay now became really unjustifiably dependant on camping for aliens and play of master players for human, who score like half of team frags as now a lone skilled human player can confront the whole opposing alien team.

What I see here is a misconception towards the original idea of tremulous, where humans score kills through teamwork and sophisticated tactics, with aliens do the same through rough outnumbering and individual combat. There are few points which I found to be disturbing in this aspect in upcoming 1.2: 1. Just genocidal super-mega luci cannon; 2. pulse rifle changes; 3 Improved human mobility; 4. chaingun RoF; 5. Rant weakness; 6. The fact that other weapons/classes were left unadjusted.

1. Current power (after the fourth stage) of luci cannon makes it possible for a skilled player just to go to alien base alone, destroy or heavily damage it and whack everything on its way here. Alien base is to weak against it; one luciball is totally enough to kill any alien defence structure and its even worse when the map doesn't give any opportunity other than just to stack all defence around one place. A good luci shooter is virtually invincible, unless there like 2 rants confronting in the open field with 1 rant inevitably dying in case of human wearing suit. In all other scenarios, the probability of human luci user dying is like 1 in 100.

As I understand, originally luci was devised as a futuristic alternative for real world's grenade launchers/recoilless cannons/RPGs that takes a lot to prepare a shot, but inflicts brings a tremendous amount of destruction in a single shot. What we have now is human players shooting it all around almost like handgun. A most basic solution that I can see here is to make luci to charge longer and eat a lot of energy to do make a blast comparable to grenade. Also, it would be nice to have recoil knocking the gunner back if he shoot while standing.

2. Pulse rifle now feels like a different gun than it was in 1.0. As I can remember, PR in its original concept was designed after Q3's plasmagun. A gun with moderate damage, but high rate of fire that depletes its ammunition rapidly. But now it feels almost like a real world's machine gun from some kind of combat simulator or MG42 from like DoD.

3. Humans are too mobile in 1.2. Stamina was reduced to a state that game simply does not depend on it any more. Humans sprint straight to alien base without brakes, strafe around goon and rants like mad rats outspeeding dretches. I personally now adopted to 1.2 style strafes and take almost no damage unless there are really a lot of aliens. I found it a misconception. Humans weren't originally devised to be so superhumanly fast like in Q3.

4. Chaingun RoF is too small for multi barrel weapon now. It was way slow in 1.1 and now even smaller. First, it feels totally unrealistic. And secondly, its current rate of fire allows it to fire for almost 1 minute continuously.

My suggestion here is to revert it back to ~1000-1200 rps, but keep damage the same as of machine gun. So it would still be an efficient weapon, but will deplete ammo in case of too much of suppressive fire.

5. Rant is really weak now. It could have been a justified change to either lower rant's damage, or either lower its hp, or make human weapons more powerful, but having all of the above inflicted altogether just screws the original gameplay.

6. Finally, it's strange to see so much of attention given to big guns, leaving other aspects of game in cold. What I can advise here for developers is to devote 1.2 for bug fixing/package maintenance and to leave big changes for something like 2.0. It will make the game feel more complete, solid and much less amateurish. The problem with 1.2 now is that it adds too much of gameplay changes, while adding nothing new into the game.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Conzul on August 03, 2010, 06:28:42 am
And yet, against all odds, aliens seem to win more games than humans ATM. . . .
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: mooseberry on August 03, 2010, 07:00:03 am
tl;dr =  ???
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Crava_Loft on August 03, 2010, 08:38:33 am
[deleted]
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: UniqPhoeniX on August 03, 2010, 11:08:09 am
Have you even played the game? I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
... the gameplay now became really unjustifiably dependant on camping for aliens and play of master players for human, who score like half of team frags as now a lone skilled human player can confront the whole opposing alien team.
I don't know what to say about this. It's like we've been playing different games. In my experience the gameplay is waaay better then in 1.1, and there is less camping from either team, while a few master players still can't win in humans alone if teams are balanced.
Quote
1. Just genocidal super-mega luci cannon
1. Current power (after the fourth stage) of luci cannon makes it possible for a skilled player just to go to alien base alone, destroy or heavily damage it and whack everything on its way here. Alien base is to weak against it; one luciball is totally enough to kill any alien defence structure and its even worse when the map doesn't give any opportunity other than just to stack all defence around one place. A good luci shooter is virtually invincible, unless there like 2 rants confronting in the open field with 1 rant inevitably dying in case of human wearing suit. In all other scenarios, the probability of human luci user dying is like 1 in 100.

As I understand, originally luci was devised as a futuristic alternative for real world's grenade launchers/recoilless cannons/RPGs that takes a lot to prepare a shot, but inflicts brings a tremendous amount of destruction in a single shot. What we have now is human players shooting it all around almost like handgun. A most basic solution that I can see here is to make luci to charge longer and eat a lot of energy to do make a blast comparable to grenade. Also, it would be nice to have recoil knocking the gunner back if he shoot while standing.
Fourth stage?? If you make it to alien base alone without taking significant damage, then aliens suck or you got lucky. If aliens sneak up on the luci, they can do quite a bit of damage even before the luci fires the first time. I've killed plenty of them, they are nowhere near invincible. Can you (or do you know anyone who can) demonstrate the getting to alien base alone after whacking everything on the way and heavily damaging it part reliably? And +goons/+maras can destroy human base even faster than a luci in undefended alien base. If you build in a place where you have to cluster defences then you suck at building, it's not supposed to be possible to pile all defences at the single entrance and then go make some tea for yourself. Luci charges slower, has less ammo, secondary has half RoF, how the hell can you 'shoot it all around almost like handgun' now if you couldn't in 1.1???
Quote
2. pulse rifle changes
2. Pulse rifle now feels like a different gun than it was in 1.0. As I can remember, PR in its original concept was designed after Q3's plasmagun. A gun with moderate damage, but high rate of fire that depletes its ammunition rapidly. But now it feels almost like a real world's machine gun from some kind of combat simulator or MG42 from like DoD.
3 Improved human mobility
The rate of fire is same, projectile speed has increased only 20 %, clip size is even smaller. And Trem is not Q3, nor does it need any copy/pasted weapons from it.Which of the following changes are you complaining about?
# cost increased 400 -> 450
# clip size reduced 50 -> 40
# max clips increased 4 -> 5
# projectile speed increased 1000 -> 1200
# projectile volume 10 cubed (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0)
Quote
3. Humans are too mobile in 1.2. Stamina was reduced to a state that game simply does not depend on it any more. Humans sprint straight to alien base without brakes, strafe around goon and rants like mad rats outspeeding dretches. I personally now adopted to 1.2 style strafes and take almost no damage unless there are really a lot of aliens. I found it a misconception. Humans weren't originally devised to be so superhumanly fast like in Q3.
Afaik human sprinting ability has not changed significantly. Dodge was added and can be used ~3 times in most fights if you don't spend stamina before. Dretches were made faster, afaik sprint wasn't.
Quote
4. chaingun RoF
4. Chaingun RoF is too small for multi barrel weapon now. It was way slow in 1.1 and now even smaller. First, it feels totally unrealistic. And secondly, its current rate of fire allows it to fire for almost 1 minute continuously.

My suggestion here is to revert it back to ~1000-1200 rps, but keep damage the same as of machine gun. So it would still be an efficient weapon, but will deplete ammo in case of too much of suppressive fire.
RoF has not changed.
Quote
5. Rant weakness
5. Rant is really weak now. It could have been a justified change to either lower rant's damage, or either lower its hp, or make human weapons more powerful, but having all of the above inflicted altogether just screws the original gameplay.
Rant can kill a human in < 1s with trample, 2-3 humans in ~3-6 sec if the player is lucky or very good. Even 2-3 skilled players can't always kill a single good rant. Also has crush.
Quote
6. The fact that other weapons/classes were left unadjusted
6. Finally, it's strange to see so much of attention given to big guns, leaving other aspects of game in cold. What I can advise here for developers is to devote 1.2 for bug fixing/package maintenance and to leave big changes for something like 2.0. It will make the game feel more complete, solid and much less amateurish. The problem with 1.2 now is that it adds too much of gameplay changes, while adding nothing new into the game.
Pretty much every single class/weapon/buildable has been adjusted, most of them significantly.
Now please don't post about 1.2 gameplay until you've read thru all the changes and played it for at least a month or 2. And by playing I mean more then once a week. (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0)
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: jez on August 03, 2010, 11:39:45 am
+1 to pretty much everything uniq said. I wouldn't mind a tyrant buff, but I don't play that class much (prefering +mara/+goon), so don't really feel well qualified to comment.

You want chainsuits to run out of ammo faster? :/ That doesn't sound fun.

Also, if a human sprints/dodges all the way to the alien base (or even most of the way), he will run out of stamina. This places him at a huge disadvantage in combat if (when) he should run into an alien. Taking on goons without a couple of pounces under your belt is a recipe for disaster. In short, if you're getting away with sprinting all the way to the enemy base, the aliens are doing it wrong.

As for point 6, what's wrong with refining the gameplay you have (to create imo a much more fun game), rather than just overloading the game with fancy graphics and MOAR NU STUFFZ?
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Meisseli on August 03, 2010, 02:08:44 pm
Play the game more.
1. Current power (after the fourth stage) of luci cannon makes it possible for a skilled player just to go to alien base alone, destroy or heavily damage it and whack everything on its way here. Alien base is to weak against it; one luciball is totally enough to kill any alien defence structure and its even worse when the map doesn't give any opportunity other than just to stack all defence around one place. A good luci shooter is virtually invincible, unless there like 2 rants confronting in the open field with 1 rant inevitably dying in case of human wearing suit. In all other scenarios, the probability of human luci user dying is like 1 in 100.
Luci was nerfed for base-killing. It takes more time to destroy OM, egg or anything else with it now. Also can't just spam it that much, dretches have an easier time killing lucis.
5. Rant is really weak now. It could have been a justified change to either lower rant's damage, or either lower its hp, or make human weapons more powerful, but having all of the above inflicted altogether just screws the original gameplay.
Rant is way more fun and not that boring class you get in S3 anymore. Takes more skill and if you just master the trample you will be better than a 1.1 rant.

So I'm pretty confused why wouldn't you do teamwork like you used to before? There's even more opportunities now. Mara rushes and so on.

Also if you're having too much of an ease against aliens perhaps you ought to play against good aliens. Stamina is really really needed with them.

I guess the chaingun is a bit unrealistic, a higher rate of fire and lesser damage to make it do the same DPS wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: F50 on August 04, 2010, 04:16:59 am
Afaik human sprinting ability has not changed significantly. Dodge was added and can be used ~3 times in most fights if you don't spend stamina before. Dretches were made faster, afaik sprint wasn't.
The light armor used to make you able to sprint longer. Now all humans have that sprinting capacity, perhaps more. The cost of jumping was also reduced.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: UniqPhoeniX on August 04, 2010, 05:51:58 am
Yes, but jumping is not that useful in dodging aliens even with reduced cost, and most humans have always had light armour, aliens had no problem with those specifically before. Also aliens' attacks are now mainly secondary, faster or with longer range, thus requiring humans to move more.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Meisseli on August 04, 2010, 06:36:01 am
Yes, but jumping is not that useful in dodging aliens even with reduced cost, and most humans have always had light armour, aliens had no problem with those specifically before. Also aliens' attacks are now mainly secondary, faster or with longer range, thus requiring humans to move more.
Jumping is useful against dretches and strafejumping a few times is a very good method of dodging or escaping.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Aelita on August 04, 2010, 11:14:28 am
A critically timed jump, especially at S1, will save you from an otherwise instant killing goon head-chomp. Trust me on this, it's been handy in many, many situations, not to mention as a highly valuable scrim tactic.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Norfenstein on August 06, 2010, 12:42:11 am
And I think that in 1.2 developers have made changes that span afar from balance changes, although all the work done yet were labelled as game balancing.
yay some other people who share my views. I agree with ozzy that youve changed things too much. With a few tweaks you could have sorted everything, but you have literally totally changed trem.
If you like 1.1 better than 1.2 then great, we made it and gave it to you for free, source included. But I don't think 1.1 was perfect, or almost perfect, and I didn't think it was when we released it either -- even before seeing the obvious balance problems. 1.2 is as much about finishing the game as it is fixing bugs and addressing the most glaring issues.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Venkman on August 06, 2010, 02:44:47 am
...we made it and gave it to you for free, source included.

All discussion of the changes aside (I like them; it just took some adjustment), I just wanted to say thanks for both versions. Designing and coding a game has to be one of the most tedious forms of art ever created. And to create one for free, let alone a great one, is almost unbelievable.

And if this sounds like ass-kissing, let me just say:
I'd rather kiss a grown man's ass than code an entire video game for free.

So yeah, thanks.

Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: baybal on August 07, 2010, 04:56:21 am
And I think that in 1.2 developers have made changes that span afar from balance changes, although all the work done yet were labelled as game balancing.
yay some other people who share my views. I agree with ozzy that youve changed things too much. With a few tweaks you could have sorted everything, but you have literally totally changed trem.
If you like 1.1 better than 1.2 then great, we made it and gave it to you for free, source included. But I don't think 1.1 was perfect, or almost perfect, and I didn't think it was when we released it either -- even before seeing the obvious balance problems. 1.2 is as much about finishing the game as it is fixing bugs and addressing the most glaring issues.
Just I think, it would be much more meaningful for developers to look forward for 2.0 to add more new content into the game and make more radical changes.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Venkman on August 07, 2010, 09:29:54 am
Just I think, it would be much more meaningful for developers to look forward for 2.0 to add more new content into the game and make more radical changes.

I think I understand your point here: Why invest so much effort in correcting one version of the game when you could just be creating the sequel while fixing the problems of the first one along the way?

Well I can't speak for the Trem devs, or devs of anything for that matter because I can't code for shit, but I have a vague understanding of the process at least. I know that it's A LOT of work to create an entire game from scratch. A lot more work than it takes to simply correct the first version, that's for sure.

And the fact is 1.1 needed to be fixed. The game is great in theory, but mistakes were made. That's just the nature of the creative process. And now, because of all of us playing the game and providing enough usable data for the devs, they were able to identify the problems and fix them accordingly. What's awesome is that they did it.

Hopefully, they'll continue to be so awesome as to code a sequel. But I don't think that should happen before the first one is playable enough to stand on its own.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Norfenstein on August 07, 2010, 12:47:20 pm
I've been involved with Tremulous for about ten years now, so believe me when I say I'd love to change it into a drastically different game (and I know more or less exactly how I'd change it), but as much as anyone might think 1.2 is a departure from 1.1, it's not a fundamentally different game, and I've never felt I had the liberty to change the fundamentals. For the sake of everyone that likes Tremulous, I wanted to at least finish it before moving on to something else. And that's always been what I intended with 1.2.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Conzul on August 07, 2010, 04:52:47 pm
change it into a drastically different game (and I know more or less exactly how I'd change it)
o.O What do you have in mind?
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Norfenstein on August 08, 2010, 11:00:57 pm
o.O What do you have in mind?
Too much to list here.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: mooseberry on August 08, 2010, 11:12:36 pm
o.O What do you have in mind?
Too much to list here.
Newthread!
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: SlackerLinux on August 09, 2010, 05:13:01 am
o.O What do you have in mind?
Too much to list here.
Newthread!

yep newthread and share i know i always wanted trem to expand too theres alot more that it could be(like a research based tech system possible squad/commander system with commander playing the game more like a RTS(taking care of buildables) expanding it for more players more outside much larger maps and possibly vehicles full single player campaigns oh god i can go on for ages)
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: your face on August 09, 2010, 07:06:42 pm
punctuation.  use it.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Conzul on August 09, 2010, 07:10:18 pm
o.O What do you have in mind?
Too much to list here.
Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind. I don't mind drastically different as compared to mildly different (thinking GPP, but DW). I think it would be interesting to hear your position on it. Awhile back I was reading the oldest posts in the feedback board, you had some pretty neat/far out ideas that didn't get implemented.

punctuation.  use it.
Capitalization. Admire it.

EDIT: whooops, pressed modify instead of quote D:
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: your face on August 09, 2010, 07:12:44 pm
at least a post without capitalization is still readable. ::)
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Kiwi on August 09, 2010, 07:38:04 pm
I played a game like that once.. It sucked: http://www.s2games.com/savage/ (http://www.s2games.com/savage/).  One guy is the commander and builds stuff, and the other players fight..  Was ridiculously confusing and not very fun IMHO
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Celestial_Rage on August 09, 2010, 07:59:18 pm
What! Savage was a fun game, though, I didn't quite get into it as I did Tremulous.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Kiwi on August 10, 2010, 09:00:11 am
I never saw the point of it..  I command once, but on one did what I told them to :p

and it isn't that bad of a game :) I just never liked it
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Norfenstein on August 10, 2010, 11:10:23 pm
Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind.
Mostly structured like Gloom, with class and structure design a mixture of Gloom and Tremulous, with various bits that I've liked from other games. No sense in going into detail without anything fit for public consumption, which there won't be until after 1.2 is released, if ever.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Crava_Loft on August 10, 2010, 11:49:35 pm
[deleted]
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Demolution on August 11, 2010, 07:37:00 am
Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind.
Mostly structured like Gloom, with class and structure design a mixture of Gloom and Tremulous, with various bits that I've liked from other games. No sense in going into detail without anything fit for public consumption, which there won't be until after 1.2 is released, if ever.

Are the sound licenses really the only thing hindering the release? >.>
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: David on August 11, 2010, 09:57:29 am
The models aren't finished either.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: FisherP on August 11, 2010, 09:40:15 pm
I bet however that there's more people in the community that can help with the sounds than the models. Currently I believe I'm the only one who's done anything to help the sound issues (please prove me wrong).
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: SlackerLinux on August 12, 2010, 12:00:16 am
The models aren't finished either.

and after the models the cgame/game/hud isnt finished(atleast in regards to voip)
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: iRa` on August 12, 2010, 08:46:52 pm
Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind.
No sense in going into detail without anything fit for public consumption, which there won't be until after 1.2 is released, if ever.



:(
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: nubcake on August 13, 2010, 04:03:21 am
The problem isnt the balance, its just that generally, gamers who play FPS areDUMB. The only reason aliens win is because humans are DUMB.

Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen? Once in a hundred games or in a scrim. Thats all.

Example 2: How many times have you killed the entire human base minus, say, an armory a node and RC. When you say 'no retts, all nakeds, rush' how often do you see people camping with rants around the corner? They could win the game then and there, but they are DUMB

Example 3: How easy is it on a map like ATCS to goon pounce the RC when humans are rushing? I have ended countless games where humans are rushing down the hall by simply gooning through the middle onto the RC and gg'ing it. How often do I see that happen? On the server I play on, it happens ONLY if a very good player is on. So rarely.

@Norf and co, those game type are a possibilty already with clever mapping. But because the game is dying, no one WANTS to map for Tremulous anymore. The devs have simply not done anything to keep it alive. A new weapon, a new official map, a new alien class. ANYTHING to spark interest was left behind.


So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.




Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: mooseberry on August 13, 2010, 05:24:59 am
Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen? Once in a hundred games or in a scrim. Thats all.

I really don't understand what this has to do with anything. How is a team of chainsuits killing a team of aliens dumb? And if it's a team of rants, I have seen it happen plenty of times.

So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.

Tremulous forgot to shave this morning?
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: nubcake on August 13, 2010, 03:31:10 pm
Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen? Once in a hundred games or in a scrim. Thats all.

I really don't understand what this has to do with anything. How is a team of chainsuits killing a team of aliens dumb? And if it's a team of rants, I have seen it happen plenty of times.

So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.

s forgot to shave this morning?

Im saying its not dumb, im saying its very smart. Hence why it doesnt happen very often. A team of rants is different, because aliens wont camp, humans do. When humans do come out, its 1 - 5 at a time with no plan, yet when they use a plan, they almost always win
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Aelita on August 13, 2010, 04:29:15 pm
Tremulous forgot to shave this morning?

+sig
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: F50 on August 13, 2010, 08:04:12 pm
The only reason aliens win is because humans are DUMB.
So in scrims, when the aliens win its a fluke? I find this hard to believe.

Quote
Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen?
So? Multiple chainsuits are very good at sucking the other team dry of evos. And if the humans manage to get a significant cash imbalance in their favor, they deserve to win. Thus in this situation the aliens must either conserve evos (by camping or sniping), irreparably damage the human base, or die. So yes, unless its a team of rants, yes you won't it happen very often. What is your point? The aliens have to prevent this unfavorable situation or deal with it when it comes. So what?

A team of rants is different, because aliens wont camp.
Quote
When you say 'no retts, all nakeds, rush' how often do you see people camping with rants around the corner?
*sigh*
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Nux on August 15, 2010, 02:00:09 pm
So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.

Quote from: V
How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror

V was a lot more exact in his wording. It's some peoples fault more than others. Since the devs know the 'guts' of the game better I'd say they are in the best position to keep the game going or else let it die.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: StevenM on August 17, 2010, 05:16:54 am
And yet, against all odds, aliens seem to win more games than humans ATM. . . .

If you actually look at recent data, the only place where this holds ture, is the european development server. Looking at the US server, when there are a meaningful amount of players on, humans tend to win more, overall. That being said, if baybal is playing on the US server, his impression of the balance isnt necessarily wrong. So the EU server tends to skew the general data, leaving an important question? Whats the reason for the discrepancy? I believe it's  the different gameplay styles, but who cares really, tremulous in the general sense in dead when you compare it to 2006.

probably another reason why the data is useless.....
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Meisseli on August 17, 2010, 04:19:12 pm
And yet, against all odds, aliens seem to win more games than humans ATM. . . .

If you actually look at recent data, the only place where this holds ture, is the european development server. Looking at the US server, when there are a meaningful amount of players on, humans tend to win more, overall. That being said, if baybal is playing on the US server, his impression of the balance isnt necessarily wrong. So the EU server tends to skew the general data, leaving an important question? Whats the reason for the discrepancy? I believe it's  the different gameplay styles, but who cares really, tremulous in the general sense in dead when you compare it to 2006.

probably another reason why the data is useless.....
Not true, if you draw a line in the middle in the US graph to see how it corresponds, only with 25 players is it 100% balanced (and even then humans do not win more overall, only after 27 or so). I would say that's already way more than a "meaningful amount of players", that's a very large amount of players.

Both servers have a meaningful amount of more alien wins too: 2204 compared to 1787 in EU, 2149 compared to 1970 in US. Together, 4353 - 3757, or in percentages, 53,7% - 46,3%. I think that's a significant figure too: balance needs a bit fixing.

I guess the differences between the servers can be explained with just different players and different preference of teams between each server's "good players".
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: jm82792 on August 17, 2010, 08:14:14 pm
The mapping system is very painful.
If we could get an export script that made the output from Blender somewhat intelligible as a map then we could get somewhere. There would be a flood of maps however there would be some real gems.
The hurdles would include exporting a non chopped up mesh,
UV maps so we can easily fit the 3 MB textures in Blender then export then finally make it so we can fix it up in GTK.

 
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: nubcake on August 19, 2010, 01:13:21 am
So in scrims, when the aliens win its a fluke? I find this hard to believe.

If you read anything I said, I told you that in scrims people DO use tactics, in public games they dont.

Quote
So? Multiple chainsuits are very good at sucking the other team dry of evos. And if the humans manage to get a significant cash imbalance in their favor, they deserve to win. Thus in this situation the aliens must either conserve evos (by camping or sniping), irreparably damage the human base, or die. So yes, unless its a team of rants, yes you won't it happen very often. What is your point? The aliens have to prevent this unfavorable situation or deal with it when it comes. So what?

So what? Ummmmmmm the entire point of the thread, you know, that its 'unfavourable for this or that team'. My points being clearly laid out that you cant blame the balance, but the players themselves.




A team of rants is different, because aliens wont camp.
Quote
When you say 'no retts, all nakeds, rush' how often do you see people camping with rants around the corner?
*sigh*
[/quote]

Yes, SIIIIIGH. You sound like one of those people ive just posted about. There is a difference between camping in hall and camping in base. Especially during a rush






Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: FisherP on August 19, 2010, 09:03:28 am
I definitely agree that play style has a big factor in the balance. One other thing to note, is that the way 1.2 is suppose to be played is different than 1.1. Have the people in the EU caught up with this. I would think that the people playing in the US would be taking note of the way Norf and the other Dev's are playing, and adjust their style to suit.

As for nubcakes comments, I would agree that play styles in clan games is a lot different than open public play. In clan games, there is real strategy, the type that's seldom seen on public servers. I suppose it would be interesting to see how the changes play out in a clan game.

Regarding the slow death of trem, I think there's two aspects, 1) the devs really should do more regular, smaller, official releases of updates. and 2) the community itself has the tendency to be .... abrasive (to put it mildly).
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: Meisseli on August 19, 2010, 05:58:00 pm
Humans do win a lot more in at least 1.1 clangames, they are the superior team where teamwork is available.

I've played only a few GPP scrims and it does seem though that aliens are more able to win than in 1.1. Also it's a hell lot more fun to scrim in GPP with reduced camping and cool new building system for humans.
Title: Re: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.
Post by: CorSair on August 20, 2010, 08:06:51 pm
I'll boot my opinion on this matter.

Firstly, there is always some people who like to make own mods. Wether it is just models, or something that affects gameplay. I too, would be eager to make own mod, but currently, my skills are insufficient to this (coding and modeling and such lot of work, that consumes time) and I got limited time to learn these. And plus, you need to balance sides, so someone/something is powerful in specified matter, but sucks in other part or two.

Secondly, I would like Tremulous to be like shaped diamond. No errors, no ugly scratches, and looks pretty. I can't, or someone else, to change devs minds, but we can express our opinion, and see what it brings.

But enough of that. That goes to offtopic, and boots the real meaning of this topic.

I think this GPP version is more to tactics than good 'ol 1.1. Alien buildings are bit more challenge, especially the hives when you try to corner shot them. And what i've noticed, as i'm usually bit loner type, or folks drop off from alien assault, I get my ass kicked, almost always. Even as humans got good amount of stamina, reflexive dodges aint much help of dude who learned to control goon properly, and learned few tricks to kill evasive humans.

1.: Me thinks that lucifer was bit overpowered on 1.1. In GPP, the legendary luci jump is almost useless now.... plus to add 3 second charge time (varies of user), that is very painful time to charge. Aliens can in second rip you, once you get them on your sight (or see in radar on next corner if you got that crappy luck.)

2.: Pulse was bit overpowered too. 75 shots (battpack, of course) on one clip is waaayyy too large. And besides, I don't think that 15 shots here or there don't give much pain...

3.: Too mobile? Lemme give bit thinking. We humans in real life got quite good reflexes, and when trained, you react before you can blink your eye. Maybe little bit exaggerated, but it is something like this. If we don't got reflexes, there would be more dead people on world. And if we think the Trem's humans would be soldiers trained to fend off and kill aliens, I think they should be trained to avoid fast alien attacks.
And besides, it gives nice and interesting one vs one fights.

4.: I don't want to change chaingun at the moment. If i would change, make chaingun more accurate on long range and bit smaller damage. And make other type of chaingun, named minigun. Shoots faster, sprays lot of bullets on medium range. And even more recoil. But, just my "brilliant" ideas again.

5.: Hmmmhmmm. I don't say nothing on this matter, I leave it as it is for now.

6.: Contrary on my opinion. I think weapon and alien models and sounds should be secondary, and improve the old one with new rules, abilities, tactics and differences. And if there would be Tremulous 2.0, i think that should give something new.

.:note:.
And I haven't seen three weeks of anything, or didn't even got time visit the forums.