Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Edge on July 25, 2006, 04:20:49 pm
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There is a basic problem with alien class design. It is the same thing that befell Gloom, and it's steadily chewing on Tremulous. It produces the all-or-nothing situation where humans generally have to win before aliens go S3 or they're screwed (assuming aliens know their tyrant strategy well).
Problem is, my solution would involve a major reworking, which isn't going to happen with this game at this stage. Sorry.
I'm not going to broadcast the potential solution, as a courtesy to the devs. I know that if my idea was somehow accidentally good, someone else may be in a better position to apply it. But if anyone is interested, you guys could dig out my e-mail.
I know I shouldn't expect an email, and I don't. But I just thought I would offer.
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Bye.
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... if this idea is good.. lets hear it, though I don't doub't you'll get a lot of
"IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE GAME" vanilla responses, if the idea is really good then it should survive being on the forums.
I'd like a bit more consistancy myself.. too many games do follow a certain pattern.
Humans have a nasty S3 as well though.
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humans dont have it bad at s3
it just means that you need a team of humans that know what they are doing and that can take down and dodge tyrants, aswell as take down thier base
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bye
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Why would you even post this? Not trying to be rude, I just dont get your motives, unless you just want the attention of people saying "go on, tell us!"
If you really care about the idea, send it as an email or PM to Timbo or one of the other devs. Don't even mention it on the forums. I don't care to see it, and most people are only going to tell you how bad it sucks anyway.
This forum already has many great ideas and suggestions to improve tremulous, and it has a shitload of bad ideas as well. Good or bad, the chances any of those ideas have of going into tremulous are slim, but they're infinitely better than the chance your idea has at the moment, which is exactly none.
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"I have an idea but you don't need it. If you are interested take my email, oh well I don't expect an email."
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/turtle777/attention_whore.jpg)
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"I have an idea but you don't need it. If you are interested take my email, oh well I don't expect an email."
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/turtle777/attention_whore.jpg)
That is so ironic coming from you.
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the aliens have to many models to use you go to the evolve list and there are a wide selection of stuff and you sit there and go through them to read them all you propably die. ppl use only a some alien models i almost never see some models in the game. trem needs to cut down on the model with the aliens, and have another option for a powerful evolution stage same for the humans there needs to be another b-suit
humans just sell every thing then buy the gun they want and armour the motion is just
sell, buy, buy, buy, buy, finised its quick choosing the alien evolve is time consuming
answer~ less models and an option for atleast two powerful models for each species
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WHAT?
and BYE
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E-mail seems too personal. I'm not on that footing. I don't really give a damn about the opinion of forum weasels, but that's what I am as well at this stage, and I won't pretend to be more.
And, as I said, it would involve reworking Tremulous' entire class system. Timbo is probably happy enough with it at least; probably doesn't care to replace a major part of his game's design on the whim of some forum weasel; and I doubt there will even be a Tremulous 2; so the point is completely moot. I don't think it's even worth the time laying it out.
Now, if he actually takes interest in some random board post, there will probably be some reason that would make it possible for the idea to happen. But he probably won't, because he's happy enough with HIS design to ignore the n00bs who think they can do better.
But explaining myself to this point has taken some work, hasn't it?
The general gist was of the roles of humans and aliens, and the trend of alien assault class features (mainly bigger and meatier), what's wrong with that, and what to do instead. Basicly reworking the whole game. Also how to make the humans better and more interesting. Not something somebody's going to want to do to the work of years of their life upon the whim of some suddenly appearing stranger. Unless they're in some way unhappy with what they have and are looking for something different. Not likely, I'm sure.
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BAH
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the aliens have to many models to use you go to the evolve list and there are a wide selection of stuff and you sit there and go through them to read them all you propably die. ppl use only a some alien models i almost never see some models in the game. trem needs to cut down on the model with the aliens, and have another option for a powerful evolution stage same for the humans there needs to be another b-suit
humans just sell every thing then buy the gun they want and armour the motion is just
sell, buy, buy, buy, buy, finised its quick choosing the alien evolve is time consuming
answer~ less models and an option for atleast two powerful models for each species
What's so hard about pressing q and double clicking? If anything, you're more likely to die at an armory as humie then evolving.
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the aliens have to many models to use you go to the evolve list and there are a wide selection of stuff and you sit there and go through them to read them all you propably die. ppl use only a some alien models i almost never see some models in the game. trem needs to cut down on the model with the aliens, and have another option for a powerful evolution stage same for the humans there needs to be another b-suit
humans just sell every thing then buy the gun they want and armour the motion is just
sell, buy, buy, buy, buy, finised its quick choosing the alien evolve is time consuming
Aliens can't evolve when there is a human or certain constructions nearby.
This also means you can't evolve when there are humans in your base, killing your d00dz.
Oh, and you can't devolve to change species, or become a builder either.
If you can't figure out some keybinds (or copy and paste from the forums), maybe you should have to put up with a clumsy interface.
BTW, I love chomping hummies who are busy at the armory :P .
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the aliens have to many models to use you go to the evolve list and there are a wide selection of stuff and you sit there and go through them to read them all you propably die. ppl use only a some alien models i almost never see some models in the game. trem needs to cut down on the model with the aliens, and have another option for a powerful evolution stage same for the humans there needs to be another b-suit
humans just sell every thing then buy the gun they want and armour the motion is just
sell, buy, buy, buy, buy, finised its quick choosing the alien evolve is time consuming
answer~ less models and an option for atleast two powerful models for each species
....what?
Ok, let's assume that no keybinds are being used. A human has to run to the armoury, press q, and individually buy his weapon, armour, and accessory, and possibly grenade. That's 2 to 5 items. An alien has to open the menu and double-click a class.
Your issue is that you have no idea what any of the alien classes are, so you have to read through them before being able to select one. Once you actually have the *gasp* 8 classes memorised, it's not hard. For me, I just spawn and press 5 and voila, advanced marauder, or go to the armoury and press 2, voila, painsaw. Search the forums for "keybinds" or "binds".
Also, please don't call them "models". A model, in graphics terms, is a 3d object, put simply. What you're asking for is for there to be less "models", not actual aliens. You're basically saying you want the same model used for several aliens.
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E-mail seems too personal. I'm not on that footing. I don't really give a damn about the opinion of forum weasels, but that's what I am as well at this stage, and I won't pretend to be more.
And, as I said, it would involve reworking Tremulous' entire class system. Timbo is probably happy enough with it at least; probably doesn't care to replace a major part of his game's design on the whim of some forum weasel; and I doubt there will even be a Tremulous 2; so the point is completely moot. I don't think it's even worth the time laying it out.
Now, if he actually takes interest in some random board post, there will probably be some reason that would make it possible for the idea to happen. But he probably won't, because he's happy enough with HIS design to ignore the n00bs who think they can do better.
But explaining myself to this point has taken some work, hasn't it?
The general gist was of the roles of humans and aliens, and the trend of alien assault class features (mainly bigger and meatier), what's wrong with that, and what to do instead. Basicly reworking the whole game. Also how to make the humans better and more interesting. Not something somebody's going to want to do to the work of years of their life upon the whim of some suddenly appearing stranger. Unless they're in some way unhappy with what they have and are looking for something different. Not likely, I'm sure.
Edge, plz stop saying how u have this awesome idea and that the whole world is against you and that the devs are stuck up with their ideas. please stop acting defeated when you haven't even posted your idea.
i could understand your attitude if you had been shot down for an idea, but you're asking to get shot down for your vow of silence. The forums are designed for ppl to voice their ideas and opinions. The devs take the ideas and opinions and consider them and add them if they feel they are good, or disregard them if they are bad. For you to basically say "I have this great idea, but I'm an outsider noob so everyone hates me and won't listen to me. But guys listen to my idea, it's great. But it's so good that you would have to make an entirely new game. And because it's so good, everyone hates me and no one will listen to me. So therefore I won't tell anyone"
That makes perfect sense dude.
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Actually, it's because I'm not sure if it would help that I did it this way. If "you just had to hear me", I would have emailed a dozen times, put it on the board a few times, bump it, etc. This thread has been given even this much of a lifespan due to the attention of trolls.
So why do I bother replying again? I guess it's so that reasonable people don't think that I'm not answering because I know they're right. Not that it matters, it's not like it'll come back to me in any fashion. I don't use this name anywhere else, and it's really incredibly cliche/boring anyway. In any case, this reply will be my last.
It's both funny and ironic that I'm now officially an attention whore, but only because of the people who are willing to take the time out of their lives to call me one rather than allow an nearly empty post to go unanswered.
And true, it isn't fair for me to project my own control issues on to Timbo. He is a nice guy. But I also realize that at this stage there's too much to worry about with what's already there to twist everything around 180 degrees. Which is why I put "Thinking of Tremulous 2?" in the title, as it allows him to skip past it that early if he's not interested.
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So why do I bother replying again? I guess it's so that reasonable people don't think that I'm not answering because I know they're right. Not that it matters
It's both funny and ironic
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Edge, I think everyone would have been a lot less upset had you simply posted your idea like the good old fashioned forum way.
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Guess what, I just made a machine to cure all diseases and produce food for everyone. But I guess you would all just mock me and call me an attention whore so I'm just going to destroy the machine and the blueprints and go drink some beer.
Bye.
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For some perspective, Edge apparently comes from Gloom where for a while it was vogue to make dramatic posts about leaving the community forever and then not following through. It mostly coincided with the "Gloom is dying" trend which was vastly premature when it first started. Odds are good this will be invalidated:
In any case, this reply will be my last.
Though at this point he might as well just make a new forum account. I was curious about his idea, too; if it had any merit I'm sure at least part of it could be used without changing everything about Tremulous.
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this reminds me of the lesser known speech..."I have a dream!....but i dont wanna talk about it right now, to many people are listening"
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this reminds me of the lesser known speech..."I have a dream!....but i dont wanna talk about it right now, to many people are listening"
HAhaa... thats good 8)
obviously its a want not tell not situation.
he doesn't want attention for the initial idea. so he's not telling
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he doesn't want attention for the initial idea. so he's not telling
I sincerely hope that irony was unintentional. :roll:
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Well, if you annoying bastards really do care so much about what I was thinking, I will give it to you. Don't cry if it wasn't worth your time.
But only because I'm tired of thinking about other things right now.
And the dramatic posts about leaving are in vogue everywhere on the internet, as message boards often draw "dramatic" people. The non-dramatics usually stick to playing the game and viewingt he boards.
But anyway, my outline. Oh yeah, it's long:
The aliens only way of destroying the human team is by getting through their defenses. This is not an issue. What is the issue is the way it's done.
The fun part of playing aliens is being sneaky, clever, predatorial. The dretch holds this style of play best. But for each upgrade beyond the dretch, your aliens get bigger and beefier, and generally lose these traits. The ultimate representative being the Tyrant. Tyrants are boring to play; charge, slash slash, charge, slash, run away, heal, charge, slash.
This is a classic gameplay conundrum found in MMOs with tanks and mages. Tyrants and tanks are also almost impossible to balance, as their style of play is so one dimensional: Either the tyrant/tank gets to the human/mage and smashes them before they shoot it down; or they shoot it down before it gets to them. So they are either too tough, or not tough enough. In the end, "balance" becomes an average that more or less marginalizes player skill.
So the game comes down to a contest between human spam rates and Tyrant beefiness. This is fun until you realize that this is as far as the game will go.
The humans also have issue with this: Human weaponry is balanced to allow for the slugging contest. Anything with an appreciable rate of damage has some giant technicality which limits the human's ability to kill things. When I'm a human, I want a choice between GUNS and MORE GUNS, not a choice between peashooters and giant massive firey weapons that can't reach anything that sees me shooting at it but hurt the hell out of me.
There, the basic problem stated. Next: My new paradigm.
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The new paradigm centers around two main ideas: Capability and lethality. There is also a few major new requirements in game mechanics that must be addressed to make this work.
Capability basicly means what can be done. Wallwalking is an excellent example. Can you list all the possible uses for this one ability? It increases the strategy and immersion of gameplay immeasurably. The more abilities you hand out that must be used intelligently, the more strategy and possibilities one has in the game, and thus the more fun the game is.
Lethality is a direction of game balance. You need a high level of capability before lethality becomes fun, otherwise you turn your slow paced slugging match into a light speed slugging match.
Lethality requires that one is able to kill the enemy efficiently. A match between expert dretches and expert rifle wielding humans exemplify this balance.
The point is to give the aliens more abilities to kill the humans, and allow them to do it efficiently. Battlesuits should not be able to withstand dozens of strikes from a dretch. Poison should be something the dretch can gain as an innate ability, and even a battle suit should be susceptible to a perfect strike. Give aliens the ability to latch on to humans and bite them repeatedly, make humans break free by jumping or some such (or givet hem a very utilitarian melee ability).
Humans shouldn't be able to fire when getting mangled by an alien, and even getting run into should knock them around and throw off their aim. Aliens should have more means of striking from above or unseen (like a controllable grapple that allows a class to fall and grab an enemy and pull themselves and their prey to the roof); charging should be allowed to all aliens larger than a dretch and work like a human's sprint. Alien projectiles should be easier to use and have a faster rate of fire, etc.
Slashes shouldn't be hit-scan: Check against the plane of the arc of the slash, so that aliens actually slash rather than "shoot" two feet ahead. This would improve aliens performance (especially at high pings) and the game's aesthetics immensely.
And classes like tyrants should be rare support classes that turn the tide when used well. The tyrant healing factor made me think of that, it's a brilliant role for the big aliens. Big aliens being able to knock humans around/disorient them is big plus when they can take a few hits for an alien ambush.
Aliens can also be armored to areas important to their mission. A tyrant's frontal armor should be quite tough, but there should be gaps available even from a slight angle, and areas that are totally unarmored.
Human armor should be a lifesaver to the skillful human and a money sink to the newbie. Armor should not save you from taking a tyrant's slash to the face repeatedly, but getting run over or barely clipped at the edge of their slash should hurt a lot less.
Additionally, guns should be more lethal as well. Tyrants should drop fast when running straight into human fire. A bolt based gun like the lucifer should be fast, and not have some giant unwieldy charge but fire for great damage at some uncharged rate. Have it store a max output at one time that recharges at a slower ratet han it can fire to avoid spamming. Make rifle upgrades. Make a double barrel shotgun that knocks aliens backwards. Make taking human fire in the face slow down and throw off an alien.
Make several classes of grenades, and give humans a Halo style grenade toss that actually reaches something. Make grenades less insta kill; actual explosions lose energy quickly (cube of the radius of the area), but fragments can reach out. Cheap frag grenades could pepper the area with harmful shrapnel, but not insta-kill a higher level alien unless they sat on it. Plasma grandes would throw volatile plasma balls that hurt like hell, but cost a lot. Allow humans to carry more grenades, so that they can clear corners like a real military would.
Lastly, I'll present the major mechanics issues that would finalize my basic outline.
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I want a choice between GUNS and MORE GUNS, not a choice between peashooters and giant massive firey weapons that can't reach anything that sees me shooting at it but hurt the hell out of me.
More efective weapons mean will be even harder to have more than 2 evos, or play more than 30s with a advanced class/weapons.
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Lastly, the mechanics I would suggest changing. Now, someone put up a post comparing Natural Selection with Tremulous, and they mentioned a lot of things that would be genuine improvements.
The most major thing is resource gathering. I would make humans "mine" their resources from resource points. The newly rearmed and much more destructive human team should be forced to leave their base to fund themselves. This would force the role of human hunter and alien ambusher, the two most enjoyable parts of this kind of game.
Aliens should be able to gather some resources from resource points, and some resources from sitting on their butts; But the bulk should be gained from eating and/or dragging off corpses: their own and the human's.
Resources should be set into a basic resource pool, and members of a team "earn" a piece of their team's value. Structure costs are taken from this pool as well. Efficient players who don't go max-whatever will contribute to the structures that improve their teams resource gathering and thus essentially gain interest for their team.
Aliens or humans who drag a buddy's corpse back to base should recieve half the worth of the equipment/evolution the corpse possesses, the original owner gets the rest. If the original owner drags it back, they get a full refund.
Aliens who eat humans increase the worth of their body: This can be cashed in at full value for the whole team at the home base or used on the field at a reduced value for the alien, but require a time in a vulnerable state which won't happen with using team evo points.
Resources brought home by an alien give the alien a right to a larger portion of them than the rest of the team.
And alien classes/structures should be cheaper and/or more expendable than human classes/structures.
Lastly, modifiable maps would be a nice twist, with aliens being able to punch holes through walls/ceilings/floors in specific areas and humans being able to repair/reinforce/build them, but this would require an extensive amount of engine coding and would be way too much to hope for.
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i think your idea could work it would encourage players to work to gether.
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This all sounds quite interesting. It would be fun!
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This all sounds quite interesting. It would be fun!
yes, now Edge go and write your own game, bye
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This all sounds quite interesting. It would be fun!
yes, now Edge go and write your own game, bye
My original point. And I am, but not of this sort. Seeya.
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As a preface, I've read everything Edge has said.
So your problem with Tremulous is, essentially, everything. Nice. Your ideas are nice, but, unfortunately, I don't play Tremulous to play whatever future (or not) game you may be thinking of. I play Tremulous for Tremulous.
That being said:
GGPO
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Although the buildup was a tad childish, I like the ideas, and not all of it is `Tremulous 2.0' material. Changing slash from hitscan and aligning it with the animations would be nice, although I think we should wait until we have HUD animations for the aliens :P.
`Advanced Dretch' is something that comes up alot, poison sounds like an acceptable way to do it, although there are ten thousand other suggestions for that in the Feedback section.
Aliens can also be armored to areas important to their mission. A tyrant's frontal armor should be quite tough, but there should be gaps available even from a slight angle, and areas that are totally unarmored.
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Tyrants should drop fast when running straight into human fire.
seem to contradict. I'm cool with some Tyrant nerfing, and making them more defensive sounds great. They take less damage (armor) up front, but are slightly less lethal, and are vulnerable when retreating? Sounds like an interesting combination. It should get tested :).
Aliens should be able to gather some resources from resource points, and some resources from sitting on their butts; But the bulk should be gained from eating and/or dragging off corpses: their own and the human's.
Resources should be set into a basic resource pool, and members of a team "earn" a piece of their team's value. Structure costs are taken from this pool as well. Efficient players who don't go max-whatever will contribute to the structures that improve their teams resource gathering and thus essentially gain interest for their team.
Aliens or humans who drag a buddy's corpse back to base should recieve half the worth of the equipment/evolution the corpse possesses, the original owner gets the rest. If the original owner drags it back, they get a full refund.
Aliens who eat humans increase the worth of their body: This can be cashed in at full value for the whole team at the home base or used on the field at a reduced value for the alien, but require a time in a vulnerable state which won't happen with using team evo points.
Resources brought home by an alien give the alien a right to a larger portion of them than the rest of the team.
This sounds great... for an MMO. But the fact is, this is a first-person-shooter. People expect it to be fairly fast-paced. Dragging spare bits back to base? Mining? This sounds like a huge timesink. And ignoring the gameplay impacts, technically I'm not sure it's workable. Keeping extra models around, doing collision detecting for them, etc. takes alot of resources. There is a reason you can't play Quake IV at full speed with a slow processor. And I, for one, enjoy playing Tremulous on slower computers :).
Moving through the rest of your suggestions...
The melee combat improvements look interesting, though some of that is probably 'Trem 2.0' material.
The aliens only way of destroying the human team is by getting through their defenses. This is not an issue. What is the issue is the way it's done.
I agree, though I don't think your suggestions would actually fix this. Am I the only one looking for an alien class that can just chew through turret farms, but is helpless against real opponents? Maybe I've played too many RTS games.
A bolt based gun like the lucifer should be fast, and not have some giant unwieldy charge but fire for great damage at some uncharged rate
This is usually referred to as a 'pulse rifle'.
Make several classes of grenades, and give humans a Halo style grenade toss that actually reaches something. Make grenades less insta kill; actual explosions lose energy quickly (cube of the radius of the area), but fragments can reach out. Cheap frag grenades could pepper the area with harmful shrapnel, but not insta-kill a higher level alien unless they sat on it. Plasma grandes would throw volatile plasma balls that hurt like hell, but cost a lot. Allow humans to carry more grenades, so that they can clear corners like a real military would.
Interesting but perhaps hard to balance. One of the things about grenades is that hardly anyone buys them regularly, so making them more useful could screw things up :P.
Make a double barrel shotgun that knocks aliens backwards
Point blank with the regular shotty does an assload of damage already. I think I've heard 75 at point blank range? It 'feels' weak, but that's more of a HUD and sound effects issue than anything else.
Anyway, it's nice to see someone put real thought into a set of ideas, but ye gods, the way you introduced them was awful. Hopefully you've learned your lesson, everyone else has mentioned it.