Tremulous Forum
Community => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: OhaiReapd on October 10, 2010, 06:22:35 am
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I've just been thinking..... 1.2 chomp sucks more than Thor. And it takes "skill" but is it worth it to be able to use it? Pounce is far superior. What do you think.
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I like it.
Pounce tacktick can kill one battlesuit without any problems.
The only thing that can irritate a bad ping and dodging humans.
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Yeah, chomp rapes, you just need to be able to aim. A healthy mix of chomp and pounce makes a strong goon.
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Pounce displaces you and will confuse you, thus always being the weaker option against good groups of 3 or more. You need chomp if you're alone, or with smaller aliens, against a couple of people who move well, if only to get in some extra damage after pounce since you can chomp immediately after landing now.
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Chomp works in some places where pounce doesn't e.g. ramps.
HS1 chomping is effective (1 chomp vs. 2 pounces).
And in some situations where moving towards a particular location is bad, chomping is much more effective.
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Chomping also provides insta-kills vs s1 humans, where pounce doesn't.
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Chomping also provides insta-kills vs s1 humans, where pounce doesn't.
Pounce does, but only against completely naked humans, and a headchomp gives you a frag not depending on human's armour. Till s2, of course.
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Did chomp exclusively for 2 days. I know it works better in a pair. I only found chomp useful against s1 humans.
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The bottom line for right now is that if you can't use both of them you're going to suck compared to people who can, even if pounce has the most value in terms of what it provides.
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Pounce makes you a Luigi, whilst chomp turns you into pac-man. :)
As in one is effective vs singular targets whilst the other is slow and ironically better in crowded confrontations. ;)
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I've gotta disagree about GPP pounce not being useful when fighting solo against multiple attackers. For one reason: the knock-back.
As most of you know, 1.2 Goon's pounce actually knocks the human back when it connects, which has several effects on the player:
1.) It causes them to stop firing for a brief moment.
2.) It momentarily disorients the human.
and...
3.) It pushes the target several feet away, which can be used to knock them off of a high ledge or into another human's line of fire. It can even be used to put some much needed cover between you and your attacker.
Sure, it may sound tricky. But with the right finesse and timing and enough space, you can keep at least 3 humans disoriented long enough to kill each one (plus, it makes you look super bad-ass ;))
Just tonight, I was able to take out 3 s2-humans all by myself simply by pouncing each one in turn and using the knock-back to drive them into each other's line of fire.
Now, this was on Arachnid 2 at the foot of the stairs outside Alien default's front entrance, which meant I had a good bit of room to work with. I DO NOT recommend trying to pounce-waltz with multiple attackers in close quarters. That's just a waste of a good Goon.
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If a human is in a corner, it is always an advantage for the goons because they can pounce to get on their heads, and then chomp aiming down- instant kill most of the time. One of the few times where its easy to get a good headchomp. Comp and pounce are best used together for kills. :dragoon: :dragoon: :dragoon:
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I'd have to say, The pounce is way too strong. Just like 3 pounces to a humans head in 3 seconds and theyll be dead. I would say make pounce weaker and slightly longer to charge. This way the chomp would come back, because pouncing is stonger and faster than the chomp i think.
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The problem as I see it is that though you can find uses for chomp if you try, pounce covers the vast majority of situations as the better attack method in GPP. The key to this is how quickly you can spam small pounces (something that actually doesn't make much physical sense) compared to how long it takes to chomp and the fact that you can just swing your aim around until it connects rather than having to time the attack well yourself.
This isn't me advocating longer waiting times either, as I've found waiting times to be the #1 grievance of mine with GPP. It feels like such a needless frustration that makes changing from and to blaster, for example, much more annoying than the old reload bug (of which I feel it's a slapdash solution for). At least in 1.1 I knew I could switch to blaster the split-second I needed it.
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Chomp can be good sometimes but it's often a bad choice as pounce is pretty much equally good and a lot easier to execute.
More or less pounce requires less skill but is better, which is not how it's supposed to be.
The slow blaster switch really annoys me too.
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More or less pounce requires less skill but is better, which is not how it's supposed to be.
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH there we go.
But yeah, the maximum impact a good player can have on the game using skill (mostly on aliens, one good human player can do almost as much as he could in 1.1) was intentionally brought down because of the idea that enabling a player to become too skilled with their available tools allowed them to "ruin" public games for unskilled players.
Unfortunately looks like that same idea will continue to drive the game's future.
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Basically, just use it whenever you're in a confined space. I use chomp almost exclusively during hs1, especially near corners and doors. It can make you wish you had a bigger wallet (9>) XD
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More or less pounce requires less skill but is better, which is not how it's supposed to be.
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH there we go.
But yeah, the maximum impact a good player can have on the game using skill (mostly on aliens, one good human player can do almost as much as he could in 1.1) was intentionally brought down because of the idea that enabling a player to become too skilled with their available tools allowed them to "ruin" public games for unskilled players.
Unfortunately looks like that same idea will continue to drive the game's future.
I agree completely with this.
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I was thinking a longer charge time and it has to charge a lot more before pouncing. The chomp should also have a couple millisecond increase repeat
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I think chomp is fine. If anything, the repeat should be lessened and pounce damage and knockback should be decreased. I hate when I am chainpounced and can't dodge it due to the knockback.
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longer charge time
charge a lot more
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!!!
Can we please stop trying to slow the player down. There are far less frustrating ways to balance things.
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longer charge time
charge a lot more
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!!!
Can we please stop trying to slow the player down. There are far less frustrating ways to balance things.
Yeah, yuck. Did you know that the goon is slower than it was in 1.1?
Slower charge, shorter pounce and longer delay between chomps.
The goon was a lot more fun in 1.1 when it was an agile chomper instead of a spammy pouncer.
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Yeah, the goon's fully charged pounces are pretty much the same as 1.1 but the shorter pounces are completely useless except at point blank.
In 1.1 the skill was in how, with the best way to kill the enemy being chomp, you had to also use pounce against intelligent dodgers, as they would get distance from you. Shorter pounces were used to catch up, land near them quickly, and chomp them. If you try that in GPP, you will barely go anywhere with the short pounce, not even coming close to catching up to them, and even if you do, they will immediately dodge out of the shortened chomp range.
Kinda feel it's necessary to state here how retarded it was to double up on things. The chomp range was shortened considerably along with humans being given a way to dodge it. That's just stupid, one thing at a time or gtfo. And don't bring up MGDev to contest my knowledge of the chronological order of these events, that was shoddy at best and this whole GPP "phase" thing should've started long before then and MGDev itself was a joke.
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The problem as I see it is that though you can find uses for chomp if you try, pounce covers the vast majority of situations as the better attack method in GPP. The key to this is how quickly you can spam small pounces (something that actually doesn't make much physical sense) compared to how long it takes to chomp and the fact that you can just swing your aim around until it connects rather than having to time the attack well yourself.
THIS
Yeah, the goon's fully charged pounces are pretty much the same as 1.1 but the shorter pounces are completely useless except at point blank.
In 1.1 the skill was in how, with the best way to kill the enemy being chomp, you had to also use pounce against intelligent dodgers, as they would get distance from you. Shorter pounces were used to catch up, land near them quickly, and chomp them. If you try that in GPP, you will barely go anywhere with the short pounce, not even coming close to catching up to them, and even if you do, they will immediately dodge out of the shortened chomp range.
Kinda feel it's necessary to state here how retarded it was to double up on things. The chomp range was shortened considerably along with humans being given a way to dodge it.
THIS
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I don't mind it that much but what does bug me is that pounce has a higher DPS. It is actually much faster to be on top of a reactor for example and pounce it to death than chomp, which is really absurd. It makes no sense at all.
What I think could be done is either 1) increase the chomp damage, 2) make it so that you must charge even more to get the full damage so that those fast, small pounces up close wouldn't be possible, 3) decrease the pounce damage or 4) make some kind of a combination of the above.
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I don't mind it that much but what does bug me is that pounce has a higher DPS. It is actually much faster to be on top of a reactor for example and pounce it to death than chomp, which is really absurd. It makes no sense at all.
What I think could be done is either 1) increase the chomp damage, 2) make it so that you must charge even more to get the full damage so that those fast, small pounces up close wouldn't be possible, 3) decrease the pounce damage or 4) make some kind of a combination of the above.
MerryChristmas has been abusing the short pounce for awhile :)
A goon that I really fear...
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I'm getting the impression that people generally feel the new goon pounce is retarded. Is it possible that we could have another phase with this balanced out?
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The problem as I see it is that though you can find uses for chomp if you try, pounce covers the vast majority of situations as the better attack method in GPP. The key to this is how quickly you can spam small pounces (something that actually doesn't make much physical sense) compared to how long it takes to chomp and the fact that you can just swing your aim around until it connects rather than having to time the attack well yourself.
THIS
Yeah, the goon's fully charged pounces are pretty much the same as 1.1 but the shorter pounces are completely useless except at point blank.
In 1.1 the skill was in how, with the best way to kill the enemy being chomp, you had to also use pounce against intelligent dodgers, as they would get distance from you. Shorter pounces were used to catch up, land near them quickly, and chomp them. If you try that in GPP, you will barely go anywhere with the short pounce, not even coming close to catching up to them, and even if you do, they will immediately dodge out of the shortened chomp range.
Kinda feel it's necessary to state here how retarded it was to double up on things. The chomp range was shortened considerably along with humans being given a way to dodge it.
THIS
I'm getting the impression that people generally feel the new goon pounce is retarded. Is it possible that we could have another phase with this balanced out?
People have been complaining about pounce all along. While I agree it can make the game a bit frustrating at times, I don't think it is going to change.
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I don't mind it that much but what does bug me is that pounce has a higher DPS.
A note on DPS in regard to goon chomp; if you chomp a full hp bsuit, and they use medkit, they will get the hp lost from that chomp back before you kill them with chomps, even if you hit them every time.
Without looking at the numbers I would assume regular goon's chomp has a lower DPS than adv mara's claw.
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People have been complaining about pounce all along. While I agree it can make the game a bit frustrating at times, I don't think it is going to change.
Probably not as the one balancing dev, Norfenstein, likes it. The issue was already brought up by a lot of proficient players during the mgdev time, 2 years ago or whenever it was.
There are several different opinions how you should balance 1.2, us in ddos tried our own ideas in our river mod: http://ddos-tremulous.eu/projects/balance/
But as ggp got so few players to start with you can probably guess how popular it became :)
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micro pounce spam is massively more powerful then chomp, it looks like the goon is just nudging you to death (at a insane speed).
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micro pounce spam is massively more powerful then chomp, it looks like the goon is just nudging you to death (at a insane speed).
Yeah you can actually map pounce to the spacebar (who uses 'goon jump' anyway?) and it's insanely easy to pull ^that^ off.
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People have been complaining about pounce all along. While I agree it can make the game a bit frustrating at times, I don't think it is going to change.
Probably not as the one balancing dev, Norfenstein, likes it. The issue was already brought up by a lot of proficient players during the mgdev time, 2 years ago or whenever it was.
There are several different opinions how you should balance 1.2, us in ddos tried our own ideas in our river mod: http://ddos-tremulous.eu/projects/balance/
But as ggp got so few players to start with you can probably guess how popular it became :)
Heh, true. Why didn't I see this in the gameplay-changing mod forum though?
basilisk healing: removed
:(
EDIT: Also, there is no patch avaliable.
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Heh, true. Why didn't I see this in the gameplay-changing mod forum though?
basilisk healing: removed
:(
Good question, probably because we never though it would be popular anyway. I'll see if i can get it on the ddos server just for the fun of it though.
For the basilisk, we wanted egg healing to play a bigger role (it heals faster in the mod) and made the lisk useful as a fighter again.
We didn't want to give the aliens an easy way out of forward building, so it's hypothetically required by a granger to creep the entire map if you don't want to go back to the base all the time.
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Yeah, I think that despite being a major "tactical" class, lisk is shit now except for its support abilities. That the ONE thing you have to do to seal a win over a human is now easier (grab), makes 1v1 combat cake, but in 1.1 it was clearly far stronger due to the attack ranges being swapped. It was harder to "seal" a victory over a single human, but you could make up for it by doing a lot of damage with the swipe without grabbing the enemy. Once again: the capacity for improvement with a class in regard to the impact you could make using skill was something was taken away.
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Just tonight, I was able to take out 3 s2-humans all by myself simply by pouncing each one in turn and using the knock-back to drive them into each other's line of fire.
Ahem. Is there a comparable weapon for S2 Humans that can kill multiple goons or other S2 aliens at a rate like this? Hint: nades don't count.
Didn't think so....
More reason that I believe goon pounce is too strong overall but especially overpowered for a 'secondary' attack (bitch, whine, moan, etc), and that chomp should be the stronger attack - Unless pounce gets used more (it does) and it should be switched to the primary attack as default.
Does anyone play like this? I haven't tried it personally, but pouncing with MB1 seems like it'd be better/easier than right-clicking all the time, and only occasionally chomping.
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People have been complaining about pounce all along. While I agree it can make the game a bit frustrating at times, I don't think it is going to change.
Probably not as the one balancing dev, Norfenstein, likes it. The issue was already brought up by a lot of proficient players during the mgdev time, 2 years ago or whenever it was.
There are several different opinions how you should balance 1.2, us in ddos tried our own ideas in our river mod: http://ddos-tremulous.eu/projects/balance/
But as ggp got so few players to start with you can probably guess how popular it became :)
Heh, true. Why didn't I see this in the gameplay-changing mod forum though?
basilisk healing: removed
:(
EDIT: Also, there is no patch avaliable.
I'm not sure even why Cadynum decided to bring it to the discussion. That one was made ages (a year?) ago and hasn't been updated since. We were fed up with the stamina, movement of aliens, etc. blah blah, and decided to try and develop our own modification.
However GPP has evolved since into something a lot better and 95% of the changes there are completely unnecessary and even worse than what's in the current GPP. What I think is still valid in that changelog is the upgrading of defence computer, the dretch HP increase and the goon change (although I really don't think the values for goon should be what they are in there).
Maybe we could remove that 95% of shit from the modification and playtest a little to make a new update.
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I've said this a few times before, but I'll put it in here for the sake that it's a good place for this kind of discussion.
I really think that the dragoon's chomp should be the primary attack with no doubt, and that chomp should not be punishing to use.
A short range and quick repeat sounds like the method that would be the most fun and have to most reward for mastering.
My more "controversial" idea is: I think goon pounce should do no damage or knockback and only serve as a method of transportation.
This would, of course, need the goon pounce to be sped up significantly.
The combination of those two attack dynamics and the readdition of pounce-chomps would make the dragoon an agile and fun to play class rather than the oft-clunky dragoon that exists in current GPP play.
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Where the fast moving marauder that has to time it's 'slashes' (it actually chomps but the kill text says 'slashed') and so can benefit from walking when close to the target, the goon has never really needed to walk at any point because pounces-hits are automatic and chomps were long range when they were effective (1.1). As a result, the goon already uses pounce as it's primary- and only real -mode of transport.
The thing that makes the goon feel clunky are two things: 1. those damn delays. 2. the physics of a pounce collision.
What I'm referring to with number 2. is the way in which a goon will slide up a wall/person that has interrupted a pounce (which more often than not means 2 seconds of being filled with lead before promptly dying in mid-air). In the real world you wouldn't slide because in the real world you are not made of greased velvet. The intuitive and far less frustrating result should be that all momentum is absorbed and you fall straight down, straight away.
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However GPP has evolved since into something a lot better and 95% of the changes there are completely unnecessary and even worse than what's in the current GPP. What I think is still valid in that changelog is the upgrading of defence computer, the dretch HP increase and the goon change (although I really don't think the values for goon should be what they are in there).
Maybe we could remove that 95% of shit from the modification and playtest a little to make a new update.
That's not even remotely true, you just started to like gpp more.
The core imbalances with gpp are still there. 50% of the reason to create the mod was to do something against the horrible dretch anyway, which is still the single biggest reason why gpp will never work if we can ever retrieve the clan scene again.
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However GPP has evolved since into something a lot better and 95% of the changes there are completely unnecessary and even worse than what's in the current GPP. What I think is still valid in that changelog is the upgrading of defence computer, the dretch HP increase and the goon change (although I really don't think the values for goon should be what they are in there).
Maybe we could remove that 95% of shit from the modification and playtest a little to make a new update.
That's not even remotely true, you just started to like gpp more.
No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.
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No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.
Even if that made the game nicer it didn't change any balance issue.
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Another point to raise about pounce = main weapon being stupid: ping is a huge factor in dodging a goon that's pouncing, because the whole scheme of things is completely different. In 1.1 it took skilled human movements to make it difficult for a good goon to hit you. Distance dodging took time to learn in terms of being up close and then suddenly throwing the goon off and getting space. And the whole ''chomp range too long cuz his ping too high" thing was bullshit too. I know that was because of unlagged but if you got raped by high ping goons it was because your dodging simply wasn't good enough overall and you probably got raped by every other goon too.
But now that's all out the window. Unless they're using the inefficient chomp, it's no longer about intelligent, skilled dodging anymore. It's about getting out of the way of the pouncing goon because they really don't have to do shit to hit you so long as they're close enough to you. However, at medium range you have to time the dodge properly, but ping is a massive factor in this as the true distance between you and the pouncing goon is unknowable.
Imo this whole topic should fall under one truth as a concept: GPP is Tremulous ez mode for those who utilize all the changes that have been made (ex. goon pounce bullshit, dodge). The "balance" is nothing more than features countering features in both directions, creating stalemates on the combat level. And when these stalemates arise, it doesn't matter how good you are anymore because it's all about the features now.
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No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.
Even if that made the game nicer it didn't change any balance issue.
You think having 3x less stamina wouldn't affect balance?
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No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.
Even if that made the game nicer it didn't change any balance issue.
You think having 3x less stamina wouldn't affect balance?
Yes of course. But the whole point of the river mod was more or less to make the aliens better and more skill dependent. 3x more human stamina doesn't solve any of the alien issues.
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Yes of course. But the whole point of the river mod was more or less to make the aliens better and more skill dependent. 3x more human stamina doesn't solve any of the alien issues.
The point of the river mod seemed to be to revert everything back to 1.1 values.
Although like I said it also did have its merits, the goon, dretch and defence computer, namely.
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Yes of course. But the whole point of the river mod was more or less to make the aliens better and more skill dependent. 3x more human stamina doesn't solve any of the alien issues.
The point of the river mod seemed to be to revert everything back to 1.1 values.
Although like I said it also did have its merits, the goon, dretch and defence computer, namely.
The point never was reverting values to 1.1. I was part of the designing process and during that time I already knew 1.2 is massively better than 1.1. Above everything else it was about making the dretch not be so weak. Reverting back to 1.1 values always had a good reasoning like changing basi hp back to 75 hp was because it's a bit too easy to kill and it's healing aura removed to make fwd building more important for aliens. It may perhaps seem that values were reverted to 1.1 just for being how it was in 1.1 but that is not the case.
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The "balance" is nothing more than features countering features in both directions, creating stalemates on the combat level. And when these stalemates arise, it doesn't matter how good you are anymore because it's all about the features now.
Excellent post.
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i think this thread should be split in two, for the sake of organization...
one about goon pounce and one about balance vs features.
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I can easily dodge a pouncetard, but when he hits me, the knockback makes it a problem, and so he gets me in a corner and... yeah.
however, if there was no knockback, the goon would be right in front of you when he pounces you, and pounce again, maybe making use of chomp.
Eiither way, my luci is always charged wen attacking to 10/9 which usualy lets a rant live with like 127 HP.
Another tactic can be to stay in one place, aim a bit in front of you, and when you fire jump so you can severly damage/kill the target and get away to make them run or die hard for your easy kill.
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Also important to think about is that this game is now clearly far more map based than before, though the maps have always been in direct relation to what each team is capable of doing with their respective abilities. But the problem now is that the aliens can get easily fucked over now because human dodge can do more than it should when combined with specific map factors like sloped walls (Meiselli comes charging at me with rant in an Orion hall, I just fly up the fall and over his head and that's that), and then in other cases a hall might be narrow, and tyrants/goons can auto win. And then of course there's the fact that the goon's main attack now displaces it without full control over the movement, which, as I've said before, is just stupid.
I've mentioned how this new version can be almost completely controlled by humans given the proper maps. If there's a big enough staircase, a group of humans can stand on it to render themselves practically ensured against goons, since goon's can't use pounce properly on stairs and are left with the flimsy chomp, which is now retarded to use against groups of anything more than humans without a helmet.
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The best way to have people not use short charge pounce spam would be for it to have an exponential increase in damage. That way it's not worth it to not charge fully.
To make chomp better the simplest thing IMO is increase the width slightly.
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The best way to have people not use short charge pounce spam would be for it to have an exponential increase in damage. That way it's not worth it to not charge fully.
To make chomp better the simplest thing IMO is increase the width slightly.
no one agrees with the damage based on charge strength. However, in the end, no one still thinks that 1.2's gameplay is far better than 1.1's.
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i see what you did there you clever bastard...
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Use Chomp combined with Pounce and Barb to kill almost anything!
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...*snip*... But the problem now is that the aliens can get easily fucked over now because human dodge can do more than it should when combined with specific map factors like sloped walls (Meiselli comes charging at me with rant in an Orion hall, I just fly up the fall and over his head and that's that)...*snip*...
it is quite irritating to charge a bsuit, and having it spam back dodge and luci alt shots till you die, then pop a medkit, so you just wasted 5 evos.
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Another point to raise about pounce = main weapon being stupid: ping is a huge factor in dodging a goon that's pouncing, because the whole scheme of things is completely different. In 1.1 it took skilled human movements to make it difficult for a good goon to hit you. Distance dodging took time to learn in terms of being up close and then suddenly throwing the goon off and getting space. And the whole ''chomp range too long cuz his ping too high" thing was bullshit too. I know that was because of unlagged but if you got raped by high ping goons it was because your dodging simply wasn't good enough overall and you probably got raped by every other goon too.
But now that's all out the window. Unless they're using the inefficient chomp, it's no longer about intelligent, skilled dodging anymore. It's about getting out of the way of the pouncing goon because they really don't have to do shit to hit you so long as they're close enough to you. However, at medium range you have to time the dodge properly, but ping is a massive factor in this as the true distance between you and the pouncing goon is unknowable.
Imo this whole topic should fall under one truth as a concept: GPP is Tremulous ez mode for those who utilize all the changes that have been made (ex. goon pounce bullshit, dodge). The "balance" is nothing more than features countering features in both directions, creating stalemates on the combat level. And when these stalemates arise, it doesn't matter how good you are anymore because it's all about the features now.
I like how people ignored this post. I love you drac, and this is exactly how I feel. Given, I don't possess the skill you do, but I can still dodge and goon in 1.1. 1.2 made everything easy, and learning curve is what makes the game and keeps people playing without being bored.
Without skill, there won't be any scrims worth watching because thats what scrims are for. SKILL, if everything is equal and everyone can be good with no effort, there isn't a reason to prove who's best. It's who has the better connection. :/
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Use Chomp combined with Pounce and Barb to kill almost anything!
at the same time?
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Use Chomp combined with Pounce and Barb to kill almost anything!
at the same time?
YES