Tremulous Forum
General => Official Servers => Topic started by: kharnov on January 04, 2011, 02:24:51 am
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I've been thinking about this ever since Norfenstein wondered in-game if we were tired of all the old 1.1 default maps. How about deciding on a new set of "default" maps for 1.2? This wouldn't necessarily need to be a permanent decision, of course, at least not until 1.2 is actually about to be released. However, I think it would be a nice thing to try out during GPP. Maybe we can all have a vote about this?
On the other hand, maybe the selection is already being started on? I don't see Transit being played anymore, and it doesn't seem to be on the rotation.
Regardless, here's my input:
- ATCS HD should replace regular ATCS on the rotation, since the HD version is constantly voted in and it's a little annoying seeing the HD one after the non-HD and vice-versa.
- Nano in the long-run should replace ATCS. They're both symmetrical and have a central area located around a height difference. The key distinction is that Nano is far less overplayed. I think by this point I've played ATCS at least 1,000 times, if not more. I wonder how even older players keep their sanity intact every time they see the same textures again.
- Spacetracks, with some fixing, could replace Transit. Both are themed off train stations, have similar multi-floor gameplay, with Spacetracks looking much less dated. The only real concern is getting rid of the elevator room for humans.
- Thermal, with some fixing, could replace Karith. Maybe the similarity is not as apparent, but both have large interior areas, vent systems, steam, and a small outside area. Like Spacetracks, it would first have to be balanced out by doing something about the lava dam, which usually provides an invincible human base.
- Vega is a beautiful map, but it's absolute hell with outdated hardware. Ingar did mention something about optimizing it, though. I'm not sure what map it should replace, but it's definitely an entertaining one.
- Gloom 2 is pretty underplayed on US Main (with thirteen whole plays this phase!), but it looks and plays great. All the cramped corridors remind me of Niveus or perhaps Nexus6, which it resembles more visibly.
What map(s) do you think would be good default material?
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Running some lesser-known maps would be nice, with a little balancing. Here are the stats, according to Tremstats:
-Nano: Human 52%, Aliens 46%
-Spacetracks b1: Humans 69%, Aliens 23%
-Thermal: Humans 47%, Aliens 43%
-Vega: 50-50, even
-Gloom 2 b2: Humans 54%, Aliens 36%
Spacetracks' massive stax might just be because of the elevator room, and it's only in its first beta so far, so yeah.
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Transit is 12:13 A:H, and is far more balanced than Spacetracks- It'd take a lot of work to balance spacetracks out, rather than replacing Transit with Spacetracks, I'd love to see a "Transit Revisited" think what the Nexuiz/Xonotic community does with EVERY MAP EVER - the massive drops in FPS.
Things I'd like to see in a transit revisted would be:
1) Turn the lights down please?
2) More fps, without detracting from the overall feel of the map.
3) Fix the dumb blood stains which move when you get close/far away from them.
4) Rework the map, make the ledge base... Less appealing. Make the trains look like trains? Get rid of the ugly black "walls" replace them with blue force fields. Mix the map up a bit-- Maybe add the outside section? Keep the large size that I know and love.
Thermal, love the map, could use some fine tuning, there's quite a few glaring bugs: Lava, borked textures, etc- Karith, eh I've played it too much.
Nano: Meh.
ATCS(HD): See Nano.
Procyon: more plx.
Temple: Die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die.
ETC: Idk, we need more maps in general. Just nothing silly like rotcannon, or any "cannon" maps for that matter. Oh, and never... EVER, paint. I despise paint, all of them.
Too bad none of this is likely to happen in the near future, so far as map rebalancing/reworking is concerned anyways...
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better not axe arachnid, its my fav.
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First of all, I would prefer if the current default maps are not replaced, just added to, considering that:
many maps use textures from default maps,
those are some of the best maps
not everyone has played this game for years, especially if 1.2 attracts many new players
About your comparisons:
Spacetracks is tiny compared to transit, and at least IMO there are already too few large maps
Thermal's quality sux if compared to Karith and most other default maps, and imo is not suitable to be included in the official release
Gloom 2 has a VERY linear layout, as opposed to both Niveus and Nexus6
Tho I'd suggest: Specula, Procyon, Citadel, Cleanser, 1984b4, Eden-b3, Vega, Ancient Remains, Sedna, Thanatos-b3, Slimepunk, Mercy-b2
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Tho I'd suggest: Specula, Procyon, Citadel, Cleanser, 1984b4, Eden-b3, Vega, Ancient Remains, Sedna, Thanatos-b3, Slimepunk, Mercy-b2
I second that.
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I think Vega and Spacetracks for one have horrible gameplay. Nano I already think of as a new default map, and it is quite entertaining although the alien team usually needs to have better players than the humans do. Thermal with the lava dam and the really big room near the alien base isn't really good. Playing as an alien is really annoying in the map.
I agree that default maps should be added, not removed. Perhaps Eden and Nano would be what I vote for.
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For sure Eden and nano.
Vega though....no. It's impossible to play for me at all.
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I don't think i've played Vega enough to come to a solid conclusion on gameplay, but first impressions haven't been great. Spacetraks just doesn't work for me, but i guess that could have a lot to do with camping in the lift room. Then again, it may simply be that aliens don't bother to move closer when the humans take that room, it may not be such a great base spot if you're just fending off constant rushes from the same level, rather than camping the lift shaft.
A lot of perceived issues with maps may be down to unimaginative and formulaic building.
I'd be interested to see wrecktify, sectorb17, sedna and maybe even meep played a bit more to see how they work in the current phase.
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How about Thanatos and Cerberus. I personally like both of them very much.
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Vega is a beautiful map, but it's absolute hell with outdated hardware. Ingar did mention something about optimizing it, though. I'm not sure what map it should replace, but it's definitely an entertaining one.
Vega needs work, both gameplay- and performance wise before I'd consider making it 'official'.
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brb going to fix cruz for gpp.
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How about Thanatos and Cerberus. I personally like both of them very much.
Thanatos absolutely. Cerberus I am not sure of, I dislike the human base and the tube leading to alien base. A rather campy map.
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While ATCS is made obsolete by ATCShd, Thermal, along with many of the other maps you suggest is buggy and is camptastic when humans build at the lava dam (it may or may not not be woefully unbalanced, but its still camptastic).
I agree with spacetracks replacing transit, but only because I despise transit more than I despise spacetracks. Most of this is because I think spacetracks would be a lot easier to balance out than jetpacks and transit (which also has the problem of generally not looking great and makes you feel like plastic toy pieces instead of humans and aliens in some places).
In all serious though, I think that the notion of "replacing" maps is flawed in general. Some of the default maps (transit? uncreation?) could do with being removed from "default" status, and nano has pretty much been made a default map already, but this is based on the virtues and vices of the maps themselves, apart from any other maps.
I need to remember to vote sectorb17 though, although its human base location is as bad as tremor's alien one.
On other maps and default status (IMHO):
Procyon -- although I don't like it, its far, far better than transit (or spacetracks), and is pretty much a default map on the rotation already.
Citadel -- nice map, although I'm not sure of the balance.
SectorB17 -- I hate the human default location, and am not sure of the balance, but it seems good in general.
Cleanser -- Seems to be highly regarded, although I question its balance.
1984b4 -- Jetpack hell, with a horrible human base location which attempts to balance it off. Please no.
Eden-b3 -- Big map, but I could see this being default. The blast doors are a neat gimmick.
Thermal -- Buggy
Ancient Remains -- Buggy.
Slimepunk -- Strange doors, and questionable balance.
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Orion is another good one
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keep all the default maps and let the Devs duiscus this. I would say procyon only added.
And dont axe any maps. Thee more maps the better(ish)
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Maybe some people are equating "default maps" to the maps we would include in the final release of 1.2 -- let's limit this discussion to what we should include on the official servers right now. And that means 1) what maps should be in the actual rotation and at what player loads (since we can have different rotations for different numbers of players) and 2) what should be available for voting to but not actually in rotation.
The former should be maps that are pretty well established as "balanced" (even if one side tends to have an advantage you can still have fun on the "harder" side). The latter would be maps that aren't as balanced but are still worthwhile (maybe there's an unbalanced base spot that makes the map annoying, but the team suited for it isn't guaranteed to get it), or more-or-less balanced but perhaps too gimmicky to play regularly.
So I'd like to see lists of suggestions from people (with player loads please), especially for maps that I wouldn't be familiar with, only playing on the official servers.
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Okay then. Here's a bunch of maps from the Most Played Maps list, in three suggested size categories. For variable rotations.
Small: <12 players (like that ever happens on US Main)
- ATCS: default map, should be replaced with the HD version in the rotation. Heavy alien bias, how odd.
- nano: very similar to ATCS. Slight alien bias. I find it funny that it's more balanced than ATCS.
- UTCS: generic symmetrical map. Heavy human bias. I'm not sure what can be fixed in it. It should probably be ignored.
- ATCS III: I despise this map, but on the other hand I hate all symmetrical maps. Moderate alien bias.
- Tremor: the only non-symmetrical small-ish map we have. Actually balanced, too.
Medium: 12-24 players (the usual amount of players)
- Arachnid 2: a very nice map, but the default bases are absolutely awful and it's awkward to build bases in general. Heavy alien bias.
- Niveus: another nice default map. Heavy alien bias, likely due to the window room.
- Nexus 6: yet again, another nice default map. Aliens dominate here, due to an excellent default base. Seriously, do you ever see aliens move in this map?
- Orion I: great map, sucks to see it taken off the current rotation. Slight human bias, likely due to a horrid default alien base.
- Thermal: my favorite map. Somewhat balanced, but seriously needs the lava dam to be taken care of.
- Citadel: not a bad map, although it was more popular last phase. Slight alien bias, probably due to a very exposed human default base.
- Bluedragon 2: pretty entertaining map, if a little plain. Enormous alien bias, but likely due to it not being played much this phase instead of any map defect.
- slimepunk: very pretty map, lots of green slime. Only played once this phase, how unfortunate.
Large: >24 players (peak times)
- Karith 2: probably the best default map, and the one played the most this phase. Heavy alien bias, but who doesn't have fun on it?
- metro: the French humor is lost on me and it tends towards very long games, but that's why it's for large crowds. Heavy human bias.
- Procyon: a great map that was taken off the rotation, probably due to it always coming up during tiny crowds. Moderate human bias but loads of ties.
- Cleanser: I really like the design of this map, and it looks very consistent. Moderate alien bias, likely due to dretch-colored floors.
- pulse: I know I'll probably be flamed for suggesting it, but if some of its flaws were taken care of it would be held in much higher regard. Heavy human bias with a nice chunk of ties.
- spacetracks: another one of "those" maps. Sure there's a ridiculous human bias, but what if you got rid of the elevator room? Then you can bury Transit.
- Gloom 2: I forget how many maps I've seen with "Gloom" in the title, but this is the one we have. I don't think it's been played enough this phase to establish a bias.
- Vega: playing Vega with less than 24 people is child abuse. Beautiful map, needs optimizing. Hasn't been played enough this phase to show any bias.
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In the end there are a few maps I'd like to be made into he rotation if someone tweaks them..
Thantos is one of em, the rest of them were mentioned a few times prior.
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Thanatos, Orion and Eden mainly. Thanatos for small games, Orion and Eden medium/large.
By the way, I hope this is applied to both official servers (as different map rotations were previously on US only)
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I find it kinda stupid that Cl_Allowdownload is set to 0 for the download. Set it to 1?
I say these maps:
ATCS: although Ingar made a better version, we gotta use the default, it wouldnt be fair.
Nano: Simple map.
UTCS: Another Simple map
Uncreation: a good map for noobs.
Arachnid 2: Come on, guys, who DOESNT like arachnid 2?
Niveus: This map is jesus. Its my fav
Nexus 6: good map. I still havent completely memorized the map xP
Orion: For the limited timess i played on iit, it had good gameplay. I just say that the Aliens base gets improved and some boxes in that main hall
Citadel: good map, easy to memorize...I think.
Bluedragon: Very good map. Simple and fun.
Metro: good map, and very well made
Karith: dont even discuss it you know it is the whole rotation
Procyon: very good map and gameplay,
Cleanser: effort granger. Teaches the basics of "moving bases"
Transit: man, i havent played tis for a long time!
Vega: Ingar made it.a needs tto be modified to be LESS detailed (man its funny saying that!)
Greenhouse: looked at Stannums files lately?
not really pulse, but should be included in the rotation. not very basic.
sadly, i wont be able to release my first map in time :(
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I find it kinda stupid that Cl_Allowdownload is set to 0 for the download. Set it to 1?
Isn't this the difference between being prompted and just having the download start? Doesn't seem like a big deal.
ATCS: although Ingar made a better version, we gotta use the default, it wouldnt be fair.
What wouldn't be fair, what are you on about?
sadly, i wont be able to release my first map in time :(
In time for what?
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I find it kinda stupid that Cl_Allowdownload is set to 0 for the download. Set it to 1?
Isn't this the difference between being prompted and just having the download start? Doesn't seem like a big deal.
Oh. Its different that 1.1 then. I asumed it was the sameATCS: although Ingar made a better version, we gotta use the default, it wouldnt be fair.
What wouldn't be fair, what are you on about?
Well, Jex made the orriginal, so it is only fair that his version gets in the default maps. sadly, i wont be able to release my first map in time :(
In time for what?
1.2
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Why would you want to "replace" any map, why isn't it possible for both to be in tremulous?
Disregarding that, your replacement maps are all worse than what you want them to replace.
An atcs remake got potential, though i don't think atcshd is there quite yet.
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Why would you want to "replace" any map, why isn't it possible for both to be in tremulous?
Disregarding that, your replacement maps are all worse than what you want them to replace.
An atcs remake got potential, though i don't think atcshd is there quite yet.
I believe the original poster (whatever his name is), wanted the change in rotation.
The maps on the server will always be there as long as nobody deletes them from the
server base directory. If you like a map that's not on rotation so much you can
always callvote it. I dont see any issue with that.