Tremulous Forum
General => Announcements => Topic started by: Norfenstein on April 05, 2011, 03:10:44 am
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Time for another update! This time with: two gameplay bug fixes, two minor balance tweaks, and an adjustment to stage thresholds in response to the change from last phase. See below for details, including why a few things weren't changed. Thanks to Dracone, kevlarman, Lakitu7, Meisseli, and Yarou for finding and/or testing the gameplay bugs fixed this phase.
Reading the graphs: Each cross is one game, the distance from 0 on the vertical axis indicates how close a game was to the mean duration for all games on the graph. The numbers in the bottom right are the min/median/max/standard deviation for stage up times and game duration.
Both servers combined
(http://i.imgur.com/QH9Oy.png)
Euro server
(http://i.imgur.com/z78Lo.png)
US server
(http://imgur.com/5fnaO.png)
Stage thresholds
The graphs are comparable to last phase, but a little worse for humans. It looks like fixing the stage counter bug in phase seven has made both teams stage up about 40-50% faster, but with practically no change in how fast games end overall. I'd say it's inconclusive whether the moderate dip in balance can really be attributed to this or not. In the interest of making that more conclusive, and in making the first two stages a more significant part of the game we're increasing the default stage thresholds by 50%. This is still a server setting though, so other servers can still make the thresholds whatever they like.
Armour and locational damage regions
We've adjusted the values for human locational damage and armour coverage so that the armour regions actually line up with the body regions, since it was previously possible to get helmet protection on top of the body modifier for a small region in which they overlapped. The change was to extend the "head" region lower (from 0.9 to 0.8 standing, 0.86 to 0.7 crouching), so as a side effect this should make getting headshots slightly easier. I'm not sure how a big an effect this will have on gameplay, or if it will even be noticeable, but at least armour coverage won't be severely counterintuitive.
Trample
The trample previously interacted rather poorly with structures: on the first hit to any structure you would immediately lose your entire charge, even for structures that you could walk over. This also meant that a human standing on a telenode or medistation could never be hit by a trample. Now the trample can hit any number of structures without abruptly stopping, so you can rampage over multiple telenodes without interruption. Structures still only take damage once per trample, however (so no spinning on top of a tele to kill it). I don't expect this to affect balance.
Flamer
I think it'll be pretty uncontroversial to say the flamer is very underused; players on the EU server actually got more blaster kills than flamer kills this phase. As a defensive weapon it's relatively fine, but the usefulness of a purely defensive weapon is pretty low so I decided that the best thing for it was to increase its projectile speed (from 300 to 500). This effectively increases its range and will make it a little easier to attack with (not to mention be less dangerous to the wielder). I guessed at how much to change this value though, so we'll see how big an impact it has.
Shotgun
Probably a little more controversial is the usefulness of the shotgun. Like the flamer, its damage output is respectably high, but its range just makes it too defensive and too dangerous to use. I've come to agree that, given the cost of the shotgun, the rifle is almost always a better choice. The best remedy for this that I can think of is to increase the effective range of the shotgun by reducing its spread. So I took it from 900 (the same spread as the chaingun) to 700.
Things not being changed (this phase)
- Basilisk - I've honestly been surprised (and pleased!) to hear people suggesting the basilisk is overpowered, since I've personally been worried about it becoming little more than a mobile medistation for aliens. It really hasn't been my experience that the basilisk is a more effective killer than the marauder or dragoon, or even that it's more powerful than its cost warrants, but I'll pay closer to attention to it in playtesting this phase. And I'll be interested to see if the shotgun buff makes any difference for the people frustrated by the basilisk.
- Dragoon - There's been a variety of complaints about the goon, the most legitimate of which I feel is that the bite is not useful enough in comparison to the pounce. I think the pounce should in fact be useful more often than the chomp -- since it's really what makes the goon fun and interesting -- but I'd rather it not be too imbalanced. In phase seven the ratio of player kills by pounce versus dragoon bite was about 2:1, which I think is just at the threshold of acceptable. I'm mostly reluctant to make changes with this because the goon is very clearly not underedpowered (and aliens in general are winning more), and I'd rather not weaken the pounce much from where it is. I haven't ruled anything out yet though.
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Player kills by MOD, EU server
31102 MACHINEGUN
14539 CHAINGUN
11716 LASGUN
10769 LCANNON_SPLASH
10649 MDRIVER
8977 SHOTGUN
8800 LCANNON
5540 PRIFLE
3350 PAINSAW
3070 GRENADE
1838 BLASTER
1231 FLAMER
261 FLAMER_SPLASH
15485 MGTURRET
1971 TESLAGEN
1101 REACTOR
591 HSPAWN
25838 LEVEL0_BITE
13427 LEVEL3_POUNCE
8717 LEVEL2_CLAW
7999 LEVEL4_CLAW
7037 LEVEL3_CLAW
5168 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
4500 LEVEL1_CLAW
4177 LEVEL2_ZAP
3489 POISON
2069 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
296 ABUILDER_CLAW
222 LEVEL4_CRUSH
12 SLOWBLOB
1605 ATUBE
803 SWARM
278 OVERMIND
55 ASPAWN
289 FALLING
208 SUICIDE
157 TRIGGER_HURT
53 TELEFRAG
51 CRUSH
14 LAVA
Player kills by MOD, US server
243460 MACHINEGUN
116834 CHAINGUN
108309 LASGUN
107533 MDRIVER
89504 LCANNON_SPLASH
75074 LCANNON
71034 SHOTGUN
40891 PRIFLE
31423 GRENADE
24502 PAINSAW
12917 FLAMER
7828 BLASTER
2545 FLAMER_SPLASH
84986 MGTURRET
16973 TESLAGEN
6661 REACTOR
3786 HSPAWN
204617 LEVEL0_BITE
104749 LEVEL3_POUNCE
73145 LEVEL4_CLAW
56147 LEVEL3_CLAW
54107 LEVEL2_CLAW
45162 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
30933 LEVEL2_ZAP
28409 POISON
27232 LEVEL1_CLAW
14578 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
2027 LEVEL4_CRUSH
1391 ABUILDER_CLAW
85 SLOWBLOB
7186 ATUBE
6894 SWARM
1555 OVERMIND
307 ASPAWN
5637 TRIGGER_HURT
2971 FALLING
1644 SUICIDE
1542 CRUSH
1072 TELEFRAG
631 LAVA
119 WATER
Structure kills by MOD, EU server
5259 MACHINEGUN
5239 LCANNON
4306 GRENADE
3204 PAINSAW
2672 LASGUN
2213 PRIFLE
1681 CHAINGUN
1531 BLASTER
1061 LCANNON_SPLASH
920 MDRIVER
811 SHOTGUN
295 FLAMER
20 FLAMER_SPLASH
6464 LEVEL2_CLAW
4936 LEVEL3_CLAW
4421 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
3992 LEVEL2_ZAP
3325 LEVEL4_CLAW
1890 LEVEL1_CLAW
1384 LEVEL3_POUNCE
1079 LEVEL0_BITE
720 ABUILDER_CLAW
180 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
9 LEVEL4_CRUSH
8513 NOCREEP
532 DECONSTRUCT
Structure kills by MOD, US server
27192 LCANNON
26470 GRENADE
22124 MACHINEGUN
13793 PAINSAW
13176 LASGUN
9843 PRIFLE
8063 CHAINGUN
6592 LCANNON_SPLASH
4351 MDRIVER
3807 SHOTGUN
3573 BLASTER
1790 FLAMER
137 FLAMER_SPLASH
29212 LEVEL2_CLAW
23562 LEVEL3_CLAW
23049 LEVEL2_ZAP
22490 LEVEL3_BOUNCEBALL
18838 LEVEL4_CLAW
12221 LEVEL3_POUNCE
8035 LEVEL1_CLAW
6097 LEVEL0_BITE
2834 ABUILDER_CLAW
1140 LEVEL4_TRAMPLE
40 LEVEL4_CRUSH
31977 NOCREEP
3174 DECONSTRUCT
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Non-gameplay changes that happened to go live at the same time:
* Fix timestamps in games.log not resetting after a map_restart (thanks kharnov)
This was creating small bugs in tremstats where incorrectly long game lengths were given
(that's it; it hasn't been that long since I did the last non-phase-change update)
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Hey folks, just to clarify something with the damage regions:
Prior to this fix, aliens were not getting full headshot damage unless you were aiming well above a human's head. If you aimed at the head, instead you were getting cheated by about 1/3rd of the damage, as the game applied a mix of headshot and bodyshot modifiers to the damage. This bug was corrected.
This should affect the goon pounce vs swipe balance as well, since headshots with swipe are now stronger (or easier to achieve, depending on where you are aiming), while pounce is nonlocational and has no such thing as a headshot.
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I think the pounce should in fact be useful more often than the chomp -- since it's really what makes the goon fun and interesting.
Alas. This is not the place for an in-depth discussion of that statement, but I figured I may as well draw some attention to it.
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Is the disappearance of the aiming reticule for aliens a part of this latest change?
How was this ever seen as a good idea?
It is not such an issue if you're playing tremulous on a small 1024x768 screen but some of us have quite high resolutions and large monitors where the absence of a reticule is disastrous.
I don't want to have to draw on a dot in the center with a whiteboard marker like old times =).
Please don't take away my reticule!
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What exactly did you do to the flamer, it feels extremely strange, i was just starting to get the hang of the previous stage's version and this one's thrown me, i guess it may appear relatively ineffective due to increased chomp strength of the goons i'm chasing. On the up side, it's much better for taking apart the alien base.
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Changes to the aiming crosshair, the sound of the granger swipe, and other cosmetic things like that were unintentional and are now fixed. I messed something up while making the pk3s; my bad.
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Changes to the aiming crosshair, the sound of the granger swipe, and other cosmetic things like that were unintentional and are now fixed. I messed something up while making the pk3s; my bad.
Yay! That is a relief.
Thank you.
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I honestly thought the shotgun was a good bang for the buck.... It was a cheap weapon that was VERY effecting at gooning. I guess the reduced spread might help it against marauders.
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All good changes.
I'd still like to know how bias is calculated.
Each cross is one game, the distance from 0 on the vertical axis indicates how close a game was to the mean duration for all games on the graph.
That only tells me half the story and doesn't explain why sudden death crosses are dotted all round rather than at and beyond some fixed distance from 'average duration' like it should be. If you could just post the code used to calculate it that would be fine.
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The problem with shotgun is that it feels completely different than any other weapon - you can get all the bullets into a dretch (that means, no marks on the surface, just a lot of "alien blood") and in fact you didn't hit it at all. IIRC you need to aim slightly behind it (or predict where it will go, can't tell when I'm not playing :P ) to actually deal the damage. Basically it feels like it isn't affected by unlagged.
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Imo the shotgun was fine, I was able to kill anything besides overminds and alien structures at distances with it. You just had to time your shots better than you had to in 1.1. Dretches definitely had to be closer to get one shot kills though. With a spread reduction I can see myself killing everything with shotty, but we'll see. Haven't tried it yet.
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I tried it all out. I don't even see a difference in the flamer, really. The flamer will never be a good weapon until it is good at range... the fact is, the cheaper weapons (Shotgun, Lasgun, MD) are almost as good or better at dretching, and they are also good against the higher classes. Because of the range, it will always be completely useless againt rants and adv goons, who can stand the fire long enough to deliver a killing blow.
The only way to make the flamer good is to lessen the damage and increase the range. It's all in the range. However, then it's not good against buildings. Hmph.
IRL flamers don't really have big range limitations, they would be able to fire from one end of the ATCs hall to the other. What the flamer should be is an arc range like the granger spit, except do lots of damage, the closer the flamer the more the damage. Just saying, the only thing a close range high damage flamer will ever be good for is dretchwhoring.
The shotty is more powerful by a bit, due to the spread being better for shooting maras.
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IRL flamers don't really have big range limitations, they would be able to fire from one end of the ATCs hall to the other.
I don't even.
(http://stashbox.org/1094804/map-atcs-1.1.0_big.png)
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No, just one segment, silly.
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IT HAS BEEN SPOKEN.
The flamer shall be altered so as to have a range of "ATCS hallway." If obstacles get in the way, the flames shall seek the quickest possible route around said obstacles.
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I decided that the best thing for [the Flamer] was to increase its projectile speed (from 300 to 500). This effectively increases its range and will make it a little easier to attack with (not to mention be less dangerous to the wielder).
If it effectively increases the range does that mean it will overreach the flame model itself? I played a server (X? I can't recall...) where Flamer range was extremely large, and it overreached the model by about 3x its length. Will that be a problem now? :-\
Edit: Checked it, and I'm right. It does indeed overreach its model. It should go more or less 2/3 of the model (from where it comes out of the flamer to when it disappears) further than the model. Simply, it is 5/3 longer, but the model wasn't edited to show this.
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Did you guys increase the size of the tyrant or something?
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Like the new flamer, it actually keeps stuff away from me instead of having a goon pounce me or roasting myself.
Shotgun is more offensive, I like it. I can go out with it and not have to be 2 inches from something to kill it.
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Also, when will the Phase 7 results include kills, deaths, and efficiencies, if ever?
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Shotty is the new MD.
Flamer is the new /god.
Basi is still op.
Goon still needs tweaking.
but finally, thank god, bsuits can actually die for the first time in 1.2 history.
Note: These are only my feelings after like 6 games of this phase.
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but finally, thank god, bsuits can actually die for the first time in 1.2 history.
???
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Note: These are only my feelings after like 6 games of this phase.
Were you playing drunk?
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For the first time ever, I actually enjoyed playing GPP.
I really feel that these balance changes are excellent; GPP no longer feels as slow as it used to.
You've managed to capture the deathmatch style I loved in 1.1, while still keeping the greater focus on teamwork introduced in GPP.
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It does indeed overreach its model.
Yes, and then they had the audacity to apply the change to real life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfyHX8bPFVA) as well. ;)
Misunderstood.
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For the first time ever, I actually enjoyed playing GPP.
I really feel that these balance changes are excellent; GPP no longer feels as slow as it used to.
You've managed to capture the deathmatch style I loved in 1.1, while still keeping the greater focus on teamwork introduced in GPP.
I agree with this statement (Except I liked the gpp beforehand as well.)
Though, I think that the flamer is really easy to abuse (Especially with the model not matching the particle.) Upon further play, the shotgun is not as strong as I thought it was, though I haven't played enough to really see if the spread is too little.
As for my bsuits comment, I was referring to the fact that I can actually kill chainsuits with a Mara now, like I could in 1.1. I couldn't in earlier phases (for the most part.)
EDIT: Cool, thanks for the update Lak (and thanks for looking at it Norf)
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The mismatch between flamer range appearance and the new change is known and Norfenstein said he would look at it later today.
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The mismatch between flamer range appearance and the new change is known and Norfenstein said he would look at it later today.
Thanks! It's annoying not being able to tell how far flamer will shoot :3 I accidentally bled teammates a bunch due to it.
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Sorry about the flamer glitch (and for taking two days to fix it), Lakitu has the fix up on the servers now.
Imo the shotgun was fine
I agree, if you ignore its cost (which is easy to do for such a cheap weapon). My opinion was that it was no better than the rifle (and that there was room to make it better without needing to change anything else).
Because of the range, it will always be completely useless againt rants and adv goons, who can stand the fire long enough to deliver a killing blow.
Not every weapon is supposed to be equally good for all purposes. The flamer's niche is intended to be clearcutting lower-level aliens. If you want to attack structures or kill tyrants or goons (instead of just defending yourself from them) I suggest you travel with a teammate that has a different weapon.
For the first time ever, I actually enjoyed playing GPP.
I really feel that these balance changes are excellent; GPP no longer feels as slow as it used to.
You've managed to capture the deathmatch style I loved in 1.1, while still keeping the greater focus on teamwork introduced in GPP.
Have you not played in a while, or were these relatively small changes enough to make the difference? Either way, <3
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For the first time ever, I actually enjoyed playing GPP.
I really feel that these balance changes are excellent; GPP no longer feels as slow as it used to.
You've managed to capture the deathmatch style I loved in 1.1, while still keeping the greater focus on teamwork introduced in GPP.
Have you not played in a while, or were these relatively small changes enough to make the difference? Either way, <3
It's the latter, the locdamage/armor region tweak really made quite a bit of difference IMO.
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I've been thinking about the flamer for the last month or so, and I think this addition could
improve its use:
Humans lack a DoT(damage over time) like aliens, If the flamer would add
"Burning" from contact with the flamer (same tick times and refresh) it could be
useful against fleeing aliens.
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I've been thinking about the flamer for the last month or so, and I think this addition could
improve its use:
Humans lack a DoT(damage over time) like aliens, If the flamer would add
"Burning" from contact with the flamer (same tick times and refresh) it could be
useful against fleeing aliens.
THis could be very nice if it's integrated properly.
The weapon would need a compromise, but it would make the flamer more unique thus theoretically more fun.
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The flamer Needs, like mentionned before DoT (damage over time), so like 1damage per 100 msec. We can turn the current damage into DoT by:
Current Damage Divided By Current Fire rate = X
and X would be in msec the fire rate of doing one damage.
...And because im too lazy to open GPP-SRC and do it myself.
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The flamer Needs, like mentionned before DoT (damage over time), so like 1damage per 100 msec. We can turn the current damage into DoT by:
Current Damage Divided By Current Fire rate = X
and X would be in msec the fire rate of doing one damage.
...And because im too lazy to open GPP-SRC and do it myself.
I pressume you mean dividing the current repeat time by the current damage per shot to get the repeat time for 1 damage DoT hits doing the same average damage over time.
Why do you want this burning effect to do 1 damage a hit at the same overall rate as with direct shots? Only the painsaw does more damage than it over time. That's much too effective.
If TF2 is anything to go by, it's better to have the a fairly weak but long acting DoT effect and a much stronger direct hit damage.
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the flamer would add
"Burning" from contact with the flamer
Great idea! Then what if the granger spit could put out the fire? ;D
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Then there would be way too many battle grangers. How about goon spit has a 50% chance of doing no damage and putting out the fire and a 50% of killing the TK target xD xD
:D
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Imo the shotgun was fine
I agree, if you ignore its cost (which is easy to do for such a cheap weapon). My opinion was that it was no better than the rifle (and that there was room to make it better without needing to change anything else).
The shotty was fine how it was, but if you want to buff my favorite weapon and give me more kills, that's fine with me. <3
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And when will be tremulous 1.2 finally? Because with this phases test you are loosing people in the game all the time. (Anyway they are uselles because there will alwyas be a people which won't enjoy the game)
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1.2 will be released When it's done (TM). Currently I think only some sounds (you can help with these if you know how to make sounds) and maybe some models are needed. And these phases are not useless because the gameplay is improving.
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1.2 will be released When it's done (TM). Currently I think only some sounds (you can help with these if you know how to make sounds) and maybe some models are needed. And these phases are not useless because the gameplay is improving.
So diplomatic. And how can phases improving gameplay if you still are on the same things? And what will happen when there will be nobody to play your game?
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Don't be stupid. This game would be buried and forgotten by the devs if they didn't have a plan (despite that it may be a minor/simple one) to bring new players in once 1.2 is officially done, given that at the moment it's in a state that's pretty much dead.
Doesn't matter anyways, you're wrong as fuck imo. The game's on a slow path to reviving (through GPP) as it is, despite that 1.2 is not finished yet.
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A lot of it depends on whether Stannum is still around to work his magic. Without a graphical revamp of some kind, the sad truth is that few people will notice the other changes.
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I think it's possible that the human/alien win-loss statistics are not being used correctly and that changes to create more balance are not creating a more balanced game. From scanning through individual player stats, it looks like the more experienced, better players are playing alien more often than human. Similarly, newer and overall worse players tend to play humans more often. There are clearly exceptions to this. However, as a general trend, this makes sense. If your background is with other FPSs, humans are simple to pick up, but learning to use a basilisk or the narrow goon chomp is a trick.
How does this impact the stats? If the trend I'm describing is true, aliens win more often because better players are playing aliens, not necessarily because aliens are more powerful. Rather than simply charting win-loss stats, you need to statistically control for the quality of the players in the games. You could use each player's average score per game as a proxy for their skill. It wouldn't be perfect, but it may help you better understand the game's balance. The technical way to see whether this trend is true is to use a statistical method called logistic regression to test how well the score-per-game of a team's players predicts wins and losses. Norf, if you can help me get the data in an easy to use format, I'd be happy to do this.
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I think it's possible that the human/alien win-loss statistics are not being used correctly and that changes to create more balance are not creating a more balanced game. From scanning through individual player stats, it looks like the more experienced, better players are playing alien more often than human. Similarly, newer and overall worse players tend to play humans more often. There are clearly exceptions to this. However, as a general trend, this makes sense. If your background is with other FPSs, humans are simple to pick up, but learning to use a basilisk or the narrow goon chomp is a trick.
How does this impact the stats? If the trend I'm describing is true, aliens win more often because better players are playing aliens, not necessarily because aliens are more powerful. Rather than simply charting win-loss stats, you need to statistically control for the quality of the players in the games. You could use each player's average score per game as a proxy for their skill. It wouldn't be perfect, but it may help you better understand the game's balance. The technical way to see whether this trend is true is to use a statistical method called logistic regression to test how well the score-per-game of a team's players predicts wins and losses. Norf, if you can help me get the data in an easy to use format, I'd be happy to do this.
I sincerely doubt that.
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The reason for the alien/human time imbalances are because it's much easier to do a large amount of damage to the enemies by yourself if you're on the human team than on the alien team. You pretty much can't win games on aliens without your team helping you now, unless the humans have a pathetic base and can't defend it as well.
Humans is a different story. I can confidently assert that if you don't have at least a couple skilled players on your alien team, I will annihilate your team and your base once I get S3, or even S2, by myself.
The point is that its each team's capabilities to attack per individual player that are causing the times to appear that way, but I guess that so long as the aliens are actually still winning more games this doesn't matter.
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Humans is a different story. I can confidently assert that if you don't have at least a couple skilled players on your alien team, I will annihilate your team and your base once I get S3, or even S2, by myself.
Great point. This is probably part of the reason for the time imbalance, but it reinforces the point I was making! The game results appear more even because more skilled players are playing aliens. This is all conjecture, though, since the stats page doesn't show Dracone's a-game and h-game counts--just the total times. I know I play aliens much more often than humans, if only because of all of the human-only players. The only way to know for sure if this causes the game balance to appear different than it really is is to look at the data.
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I think it's possible that the human/alien win-loss statistics are not being used correctly and that changes to create more balance are not creating a more balanced game. From scanning through individual player stats, it looks like the more experienced, better players are playing alien more often than human. Similarly, newer and overall worse players tend to play humans more often. There are clearly exceptions to this. However, as a general trend, this makes sense. If your background is with other FPSs, humans are simple to pick up, but learning to use a basilisk or the narrow goon chomp is a trick.
How does this impact the stats? If the trend I'm describing is true, aliens win more often because better players are playing aliens, not necessarily because aliens are more powerful. Rather than simply charting win-loss stats, you need to statistically control for the quality of the players in the games. You could use each player's average score per game as a proxy for their skill. It wouldn't be perfect, but it may help you better understand the game's balance. The technical way to see whether this trend is true is to use a statistical method called logistic regression to test how well the score-per-game of a team's players predicts wins and losses. Norf, if you can help me get the data in an easy to use format, I'd be happy to do this.
I sincerely doubt that.
Meisseli, usually you are more helpful in your critiques. Exactly what you doubt and why would be valuable information. Thanks!
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I doubt player score is a valid metric to weight against, and I don't think you have enough data to even claim a valid result on a logit model, but I'm no mathologist.
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The "newbs", as it were, flocking to humans over aliens is a trend that most people I know recognized a few years ago in 1.1. It's given that newer players will (most of the time) chose humans over aliens, creating what can become (but perhaps, is not inherently,) a relatively large skill imbalance. While public statistics are a fantastic way to address balance, statistics are biased by the interviewees, who are, in this case, the general public. I think that some stats based on competitive clan-play, which I've heard is starting to move over to 1.2, would be both interesting and helpful, as I'm sure Norf & Co. want to cater not only to the masses, but also to the more exclusive and hard core clan-scene. After all, if not for some of the oldest and clan-oriented players, I think Tremulous would have been abandoned already.
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However, there are people like ArxInsantium who have only played for a couple of weeks, but almost exclusively play aliens
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Meisseli, usually you are more helpful in your critiques. Exactly what you doubt and why would be valuable information. Thanks!
I sincerely doubt all he wrote. There have been countless people claiming that newbies join humans and vice versa. Then they have a grand theory on how this affects balance. There hasn't been any significant evidence to prove this, mostly the differences between the gametimes of "experienced players" in the two teams are a couple hours, which is well within the margin so one really can't say experienced players play team X more. Then people like him like to make a grand theory to support their view that either team is underpowered.
I also doubt he can make a valid measurement of player's skills with any approach. For example, some people can be considered skilled but they don't necessarily tip the balance significantly in anyone's favour since they don't bother to attack bases.
What comes to clangames, humans have always been the more powerful team. It's a lot easier to work as a team with them, and small maps like UTCS, Tremor and ATCS are biased towards humans when both teams have experienced players. For example, our individual round statistics:
15:44 <river-tam> Map aW aL aD hW hL hD
15:44 <river-tam> arachnid2 6 0 0 6 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> atcs 39 17 1 48 6 2
15:44 <river-tam> atcszalpha 2 0 0 2 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> fort5 0 1 0 1 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> gloom2 1 0 0 1 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> karith 5 0 0 5 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> niveus 20 1 0 22 1 0
15:44 <river-tam> orion 2 0 0 2 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> sectorb17 1 0 0 0 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> thanatos 1 0 0 1 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> tremor 21 13 0 32 2 0
15:44 <river-tam> uncreation 1 0 0 2 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> utcs 20 6 0 23 2 0
15:44 <river-tam> veddak 2 0 0 2 0 0
15:44 <river-tam> Total 121 38 1 147 11 2
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I don't see anything wrong with Prince_Andrei trying to test his hypothesis. The very fact he wants to test it makes him stand apart from all the speculation shouters. If he's anything like the stats geek he says he is, he will state his assumptions and give his method of analysis and then we can decide whether it's fair or not.
The current balance stats are pretty limited in thier explaining power; far too much information is pooled together in my opinion. I believe they can be greatly improved upon (timbo himself said how they 'aren't very scientific') and if ever I get the data from timbo I'd be happy to try my hand at some statistical analysis on it too.
If anyones worried about how to define 'a skilled player' or other vague concepts like it, this has always been a necessary part of analysis. The best you can hope to do is pick a standard that enough people agree upon and see what the numbers tell you under that assumption.
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Assuming I can get the data, I will make all the assumptions and limitations clear, like a good mathologist. Regarding "skill"... For this purpose, we don't really care about true skill. We care about game influence, which is related but different. And we don't even need to quantify it. You can statistically control for multiple things that overlap with game influence, like average score per game, kill/death ratio, etc. If people who score a lot and kill much more often than die tend to play one side versus the other, that would be a nifty thing to know. I'm not trying to convince anyone of a grand theory, and it's very possible that I'd find the exact opposite of what I expect. At a bare minimum, if I get the data you'll see some very cool looking charts. ;D
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Assuming I can get the data, I will make all the assumptions and limitations clear, like a good mathologist. Regarding "skill"... For this purpose, we don't really care about true skill. We care about game influence, which is related but different. And we don't even need to quantify it. You can statistically control for multiple things that overlap with game influence, like average score per game, kill/death ratio, etc. If people who score a lot and kill much more often than die tend to play one side versus the other, that would be a nifty thing to know. I'm not trying to convince anyone of a grand theory, and it's very possible that I'd find the exact opposite of what I expect. At a bare minimum, if I get the data you'll see some very cool looking charts. ;D
some numbers may be contrary to what you expect. i usually score in the mids and lows, but sometimes, i'm in the top three - all points wise.
if you'd seen my k/d chart, you'd likely not believe me. i'd like to see a shiney chart of each player's k/d plotted against score, per race.
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If anyones worried about how to define 'a skilled player' or other vague concepts like it, this has always been a necessary part of analysis. The best you can hope to do is pick a standard that enough people agree upon and see what the numbers tell you under that assumption.
If you really want to make a player ranking, you should take a look at Microsoft's Trueskill(tm) algorithm. I think it would fit Tremulous quite well, the required inputs are only the members of the two (or more) teams and the performance of each team (i.e. win/draw/loss). As it ignores 'number of kills', 'score', etc. it should really only measure how much each player contributes to winning the game (resp. how much more likely it is for a team to win if this player is part of the team), even if he for example only builds.
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the required inputs are only the members of the two (or more) teams and the performance of each team (i.e. win/draw/loss).
No. Bad. Bad idea. The last thing Tremulous needs is a rating system that goes by the amount of games you won. Instant stackage.
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The rank doesn't have to be published with names, it can still be used to see how much players that significantly prefer 1 team affect win/loss ratio.
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the required inputs are only the members of the two (or more) teams and the performance of each team (i.e. win/draw/loss).
No. Bad. Bad idea. The last thing Tremulous needs is a rating system that goes by the amount of games you won. Instant stackage.
Trueskill is based on the ELO system used in chess ranking etc, the system awards more points if the expected result (based on the estimated player skills) and the observed result differ.
So by heavy stacking you'll be in a game where you can win nothing, but maybe lose a lot.
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the required inputs are only the members of the two (or more) teams and the performance of each team (i.e. win/draw/loss).
No. Bad. Bad idea. The last thing Tremulous needs is a rating system that goes by the amount of games you won. Instant stackage.
Trueskill is based on the ELO system used in chess ranking etc, the system awards more points if the expected result (based on the estimated player skills) and the observed result differ.
So by heavy stacking you'll be in a game where you can win nothing, but maybe lose a lot.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, this sort of compensation only works when playing against players who's skill you can reliably calculate. There are several good players who like to remain anonymous. However, that actually sounds half-decent, if in fact some means of rating players is deemed necessary.
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1.2 will be released When it's done (TM). Currently I think only some sounds (you can help with these if you know how to make sounds) and maybe some models are needed. And these phases are not useless because the gameplay is improving.
So diplomatic. And how can phases improving gameplay if you still are on the same things? And what will happen when there will be nobody to play your game?
So...... uwant a supr pro ulra col adishun? Liek A ATOM BOM SO TEH BAD ALENS DY AND HUMINS WIN. OR KILSTREKS LIEK CALL OF DOODY.
Don't kid yourself. Tremulous is a much more interesting and better game than anything out on the market/open source world. If you want to complain about ANYTHING in a game, go to Activision and ask why they like money so much as to fuck up every game they touch. :)
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1.2 will be released When it's done (TM). Currently I think only some sounds (you can help with these if you know how to make sounds) and maybe some models are needed. And these phases are not useless because the gameplay is improving.
So diplomatic. And how can phases improving gameplay if you still are on the same things? And what will happen when there will be nobody to play your game?
Blah blah blah fallacies bias blah blah blah bullshit etc etc
Reapd, if Tremulous truly is the best game out there (which it is not), why is the player base so low? And why does your opinion matter? You put forward points with no defense, and then proceeded to direct our attention elsewhere. Poor argument, kid.
Anyway, I'm betting on Duke, but I'm redownloading GPP (I wiped; I didn't uninstall ;)) to check out the new shotgun spread, which by the sounds of it, was a good change.
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Well for some of us, it IS the BEST game ever!
(yup i just registered to post a reply)
A great game you can run without having the newest, most expensive hardware. And without having to get your processor all hot and having to spend more resources and time on cooling.
It still has a large base considering how long it has been going
Delivering well designed environments and a unique play style.
Improvements will always be appreciated, however, for the BEST game Ever!
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and each game is unique and fun because of the people in it.
also the price is unbeatable, :)
and having people working together on it, is priceless.
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and each game is unique and fun because of the people in it.
also the price is unbeatable, :)
and having people working together on it, is priceless.
Sure but everyday an ammount of people who are playing it is much much more smaller than it was at the beginning.
About the price, oh noes its free :( just like a urban terror (which have updates on every month)
About people working together on it look up.
And about other points.. hm if there will be still phasing ''beta'' there won't be tremulous any more.
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and each game is unique and fun because of the people in it.
also the price is unbeatable, :)
and having people working together on it, is priceless.
Sure but everyday an ammount of people who are playing it is much much more smaller than it was at the beginning.
About the price, oh noes its free :( just like a urban terror (which have updates on every month)
About people working together on it look up.
And about other points.. hm if there will be still phasing ''beta'' there won't be tremulous any more.
Yes, because 4.2 is really coming out sometime soon
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and each game is unique and fun because of the people in it.
also the price is unbeatable, :)
and having people working together on it, is priceless.
Sure but everyday an ammount of people who are playing it is much much more smaller than it was at the beginning.
About the price, oh noes its free :( just like a urban terror (which have updates on every month)
About people working together on it look up.
And about other points.. hm if there will be still phasing ''beta'' there won't be tremulous any more.
Yes, because 4.2 is really coming out sometime soon
Still it's better than 1,5 year of beta.
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Could we have a increase in Build points ???
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1.2 will be released When it's done (TM). Currently I think only some sounds (you can help with these if you know how to make sounds) and maybe some models are needed. And these phases are not useless because the gameplay is improving.
So diplomatic. And how can phases improving gameplay if you still are on the same things? And what will happen when there will be nobody to play your game?
Blah blah blah fallacies bias blah blah blah bullshit etc etc
Reapd, if Tremulous truly is the best game out there (which it is not), why is the player base so low? And why does your opinion matter? You put forward points with no defense, and then proceeded to direct our attention elsewhere. Poor argument, kid.
Anyway, I'm betting on Duke, but I'm redownloading GPP (I wiped; I didn't uninstall ;)) to check out the new shotgun spread, which by the sounds of it, was a good change.
I didn't say it was the best game out there. I said most interesting. :)
What defense is needed? I don't need to defend the fact that everygame that I have ever played will come close to Trem.
CoD 4? Good, but I got bored.
CoD5? SHIT.
MW2? Exploiter's galore.
Halo? Easy, anyone who has thumbs and can aim is good. Reach? The same.
Black Ops? Refreshing, until you realize every gun is the same shit and you get bored.
UrT? Fun, except the community is shit and doesn't help new players. (Aka moi.)
QuakeLive? Well, there isn't a word to describe it. Its like halo, except like UrT too. With a shit community.
I haven't played any other games, because not many games from Open Source runs on Mac. But from my perspective as an Open Source gamer, Tremulous IS the only game that I still enjoy playing.
And I'm talking about MP in games btw. Not SP, because I enjoy SP on almost every game.
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Quake[snip]? [snip]Its like halo[snip]
You have no clue what you're talking about.
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Quake[snip]? [snip]Its like halo[snip]
You have no clue what you're talking about.
Nice quote mining. QUAKELIVE is like halo in the fact that weapons spawn on the map and it requires understanding of where the weapons are to be good.
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UrT? Fun, except the community is shit and doesn't help new players. (Aka moi.)
Lmfao pussy. You're calling the community shit because it doesn't help new players? UrT's learning curve is a fraction of Trem's.
Getting into UrT means playing a public server a bit, then just searching for where the good shit is at (#pugbot @ irc.gamesurge.net, or ftwgl.com), and getting enough of a name in the community for SOME competitive clan to recruit you.
In Trem right now it's about having the patience to deal with the desert that people still call a living community. It's coming back, I'll give it that, but I wouldn't sit for this current community over UrT's unless I was banned from league play.
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ON TOPIC: Flamer needs 400 speed, between its old and new, or some other nerf. People can backpeddle + dodge backwards and rape you. Humans should not have a gun that damn near forces you to run no matter what, there should virtually ALWAYS be a way to win with aggression.
Also, the shotgun feels and performs exactly as it did in 1.1, minus the bullshit where you'd shoot a dretch dead on and it wouldn't die. The shotgun is now even more powerful than it was in 1.1, is what I'm saying. Just my input, I can't really come up with a way to call that a bad thing.
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UrT? Fun, except the community is shit and doesn't help new players. (Aka moi.)
Lmfao pussy. You're calling the community shit because it doesn't help new players? UrT's learning curve is a fraction of Trem's.
Getting into UrT means playing a public server a bit, then just searching for where the good shit is at (#pugbot @ irc.gamesurge.net, or ftwgl.com), and getting enough of a name in the community for SOME competitive clan to recruit you.
Idk what you are talking about, Trem is way easier for me. I played that game for ateast 2 weeks, and barely improved. If you would care to give some input on what I can do to get better, I would be utterly grateful.
On topic, I completely agree with you, shitty is still my favorite over MD, and I completely agree with the need on the flame.
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Learning curve doesn't have everything to do with getting better. There's more fundamentals to Trem than UrT by a pretty big margin. But playing UrT well is much harder. Of course you're barely going to improve at UrT in 2 weeks. I haven't seen someone from Trem go to UrT and improve rapidly yet, it usually takes about 2 months to start really showing potential. Plus you have to find the right places to play. Decent public CTF servers are the only thing that will really get you anywhere for public play. PUGs are the best.
ON TOPIC: I also feel like the hitbox fixes are part of what has made playing aliens a lot more fun out of these latest phase changes. It's pretty clear that it makes playing aliens, especially the goon, much more smooth when attacking, most importantly vs. battlesuits.
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Learning curve doesn't have everything to do with getting better. There's more fundamentals to Trem than UrT by a pretty big margin. But playing UrT well is much harder. Of course you're barely going to improve at UrT in 2 weeks. I haven't seen someone from Trem go to UrT and improve rapidly yet, it usually takes about 2 months to start really showing potential. Plus you have to find the right places to play. Decent public CTF servers are the only thing that will really get you anywhere for public play. PUGs are the best.
ON TOPIC: I also feel like the hitbox fixes are part of what has made playing aliens a lot more fun out of these latest phase changes. It's pretty clear that it makes playing aliens, especially the goon, much more smooth when attacking, most importantly vs. battlesuits.
I suppose..
But on topic, I think the goon still needs a fix for the chomp. I don't even care about power or range. I just want to see an increase on speed.
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Learning curve doesn't have everything to do with getting better. There's more fundamentals to Trem than UrT by a pretty big margin. But playing UrT well is much harder. Of course you're barely going to improve at UrT in 2 weeks. I haven't seen someone from Trem go to UrT and improve rapidly yet, it usually takes about 2 months to start really showing potential. Plus you have to find the right places to play. Decent public CTF servers are the only thing that will really get you anywhere for public play. PUGs are the best.
ON TOPIC: I also feel like the hitbox fixes are part of what has made playing aliens a lot more fun out of these latest phase changes. It's pretty clear that it makes playing aliens, especially the goon, much more smooth when attacking, most importantly vs. battlesuits.
off topic:
a basic deathmatching game has a steeper learning curve than trem? whatever you're smoking, send some to me.
you want a game with a steep learning curve, try planetside. unless you have an outfit (read: clan, guild) building you up, after two months you're still not max level, and you're command level is likely to be 0-3 out of 5 depending on how well your PUG squads do. at two months, you've probably got a basic grasp of half of the vehicles available to you, and perhaps a quarter of the weapons. at two months, you might start understanding the basics of how the flow of battle works at a single facility or tower, but the flow over a continent is likely still far beyond your grasp.
Nice quote mining. QUAKELIVE is like halo in the fact that weapons spawn on the map and it requires understanding of where the weapons are to be good.
you mean halo is like quake 2 (or even doom) in that the weapons spawn on the map and you have to know where they are to be good.
on topic:
if phase 7 was the one that just completed, i'll have to complement the changes over 1.1, when i last played trem. before, it seemed like every match turned out "stacked", with one team or the other being completely raped. trem now feels more "accessable" and more games come out "good" because they were close, rather than "bad" because they were "over before they started."
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Could we stick the discussion of Urban Terror and Planetside to some other thread?
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Could we stick the discussion of Urban Terror and Planetside to some other thread?
Fine by me.
This flamer...... IS SO OP. You shouldn't be able to chase a mara and kill it because the range and RoA is so high it out speeds the second fastest alien..
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a basic deathmatching game has a steeper learning curve than trem?
Other way around, you misread. You have no idea what UrT is like either. Oh well.
But on topic, I think the goon still needs a fix for the chomp. I don't even care about power or range. I just want to see an increase on speed.
I've changed a bit on this. The reason I would have wanted chomp to get a bit of a buff is because against any human player who is decent at dodging (it's more distancing now) you would be retarded to even bother with chomp. I try with very little success to stay in chomp range but it's virtually impossible to do anything with chomp if they spam their dodge key or just like to run backwards. You are FORCED to use pounce as an attack, given that even if your pounce brings you into chomp range, they can just hit their dodge key again and they're out of it. You can't instantaneously chomp after pouncing, meaning that they realistically have plenty of time to dodge out of chomp range after you land your pounce.
With the way things are now, I can settle easily for having no buff to the repeat rate or range, but I think that an increase in the goon's movement rate should be at least considered. The goon will not kill humans any faster by DPS, but it will have more of a chance to close in on distance-dodging humans without having to use the unwieldy pounce to attack (which no longer actually even provides you a legitimate opportunity to chomp, given that they can hit their dodge key).
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a basic deathmatching game has a steeper learning curve than trem?
Other way around, you misread. You have no idea what UrT is like either. Oh well.
But on topic, I think the goon still needs a fix for the chomp. I don't even care about power or range. I just want to see an increase on speed.
I've changed a bit on this. The reason I would have wanted chomp to get a bit of a buff is because against any human player who is decent at dodging (it's more distancing now) you would be retarded to even bother with chomp. I try with very little success to stay in chomp range but it's virtually impossible to do anything with chomp if they spam their dodge key or just like to run backwards. You are FORCED to use pounce as an attack, given that even if your pounce brings you into chomp range, they can just hit their dodge key again and they're out of it. You can't instantaneously chomp after pouncing, meaning that they realistically have plenty of time to dodge out of chomp range after you land your pounce.
With the way things are now, I can settle easily for having no buff to the repeat rate or range, but I think that an increase in the goon's movement rate should be at least considered. The goon will not kill humans any faster by DPS, but it will have more of a chance to close in on distance-dodging humans without having to use the unwieldy pounce to attack (which no longer actually even provides you a legitimate opportunity to chomp, given that they can hit their dodge key).
I'd be okay with that too, I just don't want the goon to be a useless class for me. I don't understand why they decided to make the secondary attack for goon its primary attack. And I refuse to use a goon where I have to pounce. I've just been using basi and mara.
One thing, though. Why is it that chomping S1 Humans is so much easier than chomping S2,3 Humans? I know heabites, blah blah blah, but its not even that. I hit way more chomps with S2 humans than I do with S2,3. Not more kills, just more hits. Is that just chance, or is there a reason for it?
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One thing, though. Why is it that chomping S1 Humans is so much easier than chomping S2,3 Humans? I know heabites, blah blah blah, but its not even that. I hit way more chomps with S2 humans than I do with S2,3. Not more kills, just more hits. Is that just chance, or is there a reason for it?
could it be armor soaks the hit enough for them to bring fire onto you and force you to disengage?
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Misread. I said hit, not kill.
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Misread. I said hit, not kill.
you misread. you cannot bring fire if you are dead. i cannot remember the last time a dead player forced me to disengage.
i again posit that s2 and s3 armors allow humans to take the chomp, and shoot you till you die or run. this fulfills your conditions of hitting, but not killing.
i'm assuming you meant "..s2 humans than i do s1, 3..." where you said
...I hit way more chomps with S2 humans than I do with S2,3. ...
did you perhaps mean you hit more s1 than s2 or 3, and not kill? if this is the case, i'd either suspect lag or your aim. possibly both.
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you cannot bring fire if you are dead. i cannot remember the last time a dead player forced me to disengage.
:grenade:
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you cannot bring fire if you are dead. i cannot remember the last time a dead player forced me to disengage.
:grenade:
clever. except considering in this scenario that the player who threw the grenade is already dead, engaging their corpse would be pointless. a naid that forces me to stop attacking the human base is welcomed, it means the humans are naiding themselves.
i also sincerely doubt that reapd is hitting but not killing s2 or s3 humans because they are all naiding him.
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you cannot bring fire if you are dead. i cannot remember the last time a dead player forced me to disengage.
:grenade:
clever. except considering in this scenario that the player who threw the grenade is already dead, engaging their corpse would be pointless. a naid that forces me to stop attacking the human base is welcomed, it means the humans are naiding themselves.
i also sincerely doubt that reapd is hitting but not killing s2 or s3 humans because they are all naiding him.
I wasn't saying it worked in this specific scenario, I'm just saying that a nade could "bring fire" from a dead person (happens often) and also could force you to disengage from fighting any other nearby humans temporarily.
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I wasn't saying it worked in this specific scenario, I'm just saying that a nade could "bring fire" from a dead person (happens often) and also could force you to disengage from fighting any other nearby humans temporarily.
let's try to stick to the subject at hand without getting pulled into these "what if" scenarios. you know as well as i that the naid is for structures, clusters, and a last ditch survival method. moreover, there is a good chance that those "other humans nearby" that i am disengaging from this ill-advised naid are disengaging ME to also get away.
so, all this naid foolishness aside, why do you think reapd can hit but not kill s2 and s3 humans with the chomp?
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why do you think reapd can hit but not kill s2 and s3 humans with the chomp?
Because of helmet/bsuit.
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None of you are understanding me. I have a highe :laugh:r hit rate against s1 humans than I do with humans that have a helmet or bsuit.
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The goon is a tad overpowered.
Perhaps a slight adjustment with it to make it slightly weaker somehow?
Just my 2 cents.
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The goon is only slightly OP when you put pounce spammers up against lone enemies, the chomp is laughably easy to avoid.
As for skilled goons tearing through like six S1 humans with chomp (and I suppose pounce in a combo), I think that's perfectly acceptable given that the humans have a way to escape chomp and they don't use it, so its their problem.
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That's what I'm talking about, its laughably east to hit and kill s1, but I can't even hit helmetedor bsuited humans as much as I do when they have no armor. :'(
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That's just you. Probably in your head.
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Okay, was just making sure I'm crazy.
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Goon is less OP given the new flamer/Shotgun.
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The shotgun isn't significantly better than anything else against goons and the new flamer isn't working as well as the old one against them, for me.
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The shotgun isn't significantly better than anything else against goons and the new flamer isn't working as well as the old one against them, for me.
The flamer has been buffed WAY TOO much. I don't mind buffing it so its actually useful, but it is so OP against every alien.I don't run from lucis, but I have to with flamers. The knockback is retardedly strong.
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I think it's fine, as anybody with a flamer is bound to either kill themselves, or their teammates, or maybe one goon... Which is fine with me.
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I'm seeing the flamer as being worth like 700 to 900 creds now, though it's map dependent in terms of range. Try using the flamer to kill an alien base at ATCS. It's absurd, you can ruin everything too damn fast. It's essentially a painsaw with more range now, with a bit lower DPS.
It's pretty much suicide to try to attack anyone who just backs up and fires at you. It's the most powerful weapon overall now imo, except for in wide open areas vs. bases (eggs on the ceiling of Tremor default alien base). But an alien base in such an area gives lucis more room to evade while charging shots. So now it's either make your base more vulnerable to lucis or more vulnerable to flamers.
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I'm seeing the flamer as being worth like 700 to 900 creds now, though it's map dependent in terms of range. Try using the flamer to kill an alien base at ATCS. It's absurd, you can ruin everything too damn fast. It's essentially a painsaw with more range now, with a bit lower DPS.
It's pretty much suicide to try to attack anyone who just backs up and fires at you. It's the most powerful weapon overall now imo, except for in wide open areas vs. bases (eggs on the ceiling of Tremor default alien base). But an alien base in such an area gives lucis more room to evade while charging shots. So now it's either make your base more vulnerable to lucis or more vulnerable to flamers.
Exactly how I feel. Btw where the fuck did you get that quote Drac? Made me laugh so fucking hard.
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The St. Anger one is from a topic from a long time back. The other one is from a recent topic, the guy thinks he's the target of an admin abuse conspiracy.
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The St. Anger one is from a topic from a long time back. The other one is from a recent topic, the guy thinks he's the target of an admin abuse conspiracy.
Lawl I remember those days.... I was talking about the bottom one.
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I'm seeing the flamer as being worth like 700 to 900 creds now, though it's map dependent in terms of range. Try using the flamer to kill an alien base at ATCS. It's absurd, you can ruin everything too damn fast. It's essentially a painsaw with more range now, with a bit lower DPS.
It's pretty much suicide to try to attack anyone who just backs up and fires at you. It's the most powerful weapon overall now imo, except for in wide open areas vs. bases (eggs on the ceiling of Tremor default alien base). But an alien base in such an area gives lucis more room to evade while charging shots. So now it's either make your base more vulnerable to lucis or more vulnerable to flamers.
Make is expensive then, I do like how I can run off, and not be chased down instantly.
It's supposed to be great for killing small stuff, defensively covering people's backsides. killing bases? and such.
I'd like to see it more then just killing dretches and basis.....
If you have an expensive flamer your going to feel a lot of pain when you die verses say a chaingun.
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I'm seeing the flamer as being worth like 700 to 900 creds now, though it's map dependent in terms of range. Try using the flamer to kill an alien base at ATCS. It's absurd, you can ruin everything too damn fast. It's essentially a painsaw with more range now, with a bit lower DPS.
It's pretty much suicide to try to attack anyone who just backs up and fires at you. It's the most powerful weapon overall now imo, except for in wide open areas vs. bases (eggs on the ceiling of Tremor default alien base). But an alien base in such an area gives lucis more room to evade while charging shots. So now it's either make your base more vulnerable to lucis or more vulnerable to flamers.
Make is expensive then, I do like how I can run off, and not be chased down instantly.
It's supposed to be great for killing small stuff, defensively covering people's backsides. killing bases? and such.
I'd like to see it more then just killing dretches and basis.....
If you have an expensive flamer your going to feel a lot of pain when you die verses say a chaingun.
No even just smaller stuff. It kills EVERYTHING.
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No even just smaller stuff. It kills EVERYTHING.
I wish i could get the hang of it, goons and rants tend to kill me, even when i'm suited, and maras generally run from flame successfully, i find chainsuits more effective in most situations.
For a weapon that just kills everything, the flamer doesn't seem to feature too prominently in your tremstats, it almost looks like you've barely used the thing, or maybe that it's just not very effective.
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No even just smaller stuff. It kills EVERYTHING.
I wish i could get the hang of it, goons and rants tend to kill me, even when i'm suited, and maras generally run from flame successfully, i find chainsuits more effective in most situations.
For a weapon that just kills everything, the flamer doesn't seem to feature too prominently in your tremstats, it almost looks like you've barely used the thing, or maybe that it's just not very effective.
From my tremstats? I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge. However, flamer tends to be an important map based weapon. Bad doors, or close range will cause the flamer to rape all aliens.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
All Urban Terror weapons besides the knife are noob weapons, duh.
And that's only if you don't throw them and you give the other guy a three second warning beforehand so that he can react appropriately to you approaching him with a knife.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
There are many invite-level players in UrT that use G36 (one particular player is known for negev, he even used it during a semi-finals match), so comparing flamer to G36/negev is meaningless. If you are a mediocre player that uses negev or G36, you will get rolled by pros who use lr, m4, and sr8.
Contrarily, if you are mediocre in tremulous, you can backpedal with flamer and still manage to kill people who are considered to be good.
That being said, Reapd's argument doesn't make any sense. But I don't blame him; puberty is a challenging time for many.
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IIRC the flamer thing happened before. At first people weren't aware of it's opness but after a while they noticed it and games with 16 players were extremely lame, at s2 many humans were wearing flamers and melting aliens in matter of seconds. And it wasn't even as powerful as it is now. The story is going to be repeated I fear.
I vote for reducing it's range by 1/3 at least.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
Lol @ that old pub server noob talk, hope you're completely separated, opinion wise, from whatever fuckfaces say that shit since both guns are good, except that Negev slows you down and just doesn't fit in a "good" loadout. G36 is very widely used in competitive play though and takes just as much skill to use as the other autos, against anyone who's decent that is.
On topic: Dodge is a good example of how much this version forces you into things through no real skill on the opponent's part. Regardless of team, these points stand out in terms of being forced into a gameplay style or decision.
1.) You're forced to exclusively use pounce if your opponent uses their dodge key mindlessly to distance themselves.
2.) You're forced to run away with mara against the same kind of human because you spend too much time in the air now, meaning they have plenty of time to start gaining distance in a new direction.
3.) You're forced to actually use dodge (maybe jumping but I'm pretty sure you'd just get killed trying it) against almost every goon (if you're not a gambler you call it as every goon, period) because if they exclusively use pouncing you have pretty much no chance of surviving by basic movement dodging because of how ridiculously easy it is to hit people with pounce.
4.) You're forced to use dretch insanely carefully because a human can decide to dodge backwards before completely turning corners, and there is virtually no way you're going to react fast enough to that to save yourself from being shot (if they're aiming at you obviously), so you have to run. The essential fix to this is to turn the corner early yourself, before he has a chance to pull this sort of early dodge, which is retarded because then you're actually taking a big risk.
5.) You're forced to run from or jump over flamers now pretty much always, unless you're a rant. Flamers can just back up while shooting, or dodge backwards, and you will probably die as goon. As mara, I suppose you could use zap to beat their range, but if you're maintaining that kind of distance they can just run by you more easily. Going into claw range is practically suicide, because it's so easy to hit maras with the flamer now. Also note that you can actually run around pointing the flamer straight down and dretches who get near you tend to die. Not important I guess but awkward.
6.) You're forced to avoid narrow halls if the enemy has rants because if you don't and they're there you will die. It was pretty obvious in a scrim between Pk and ddos on Gloom2b2. But at least that map has a decent opening before the narrow areas, plus a good back entrance. Then you've got Specula, which I think is a terrible map, the halls between H and A default bases being just one reason.
7.) This is kinda weak, but still noteworthy: In a well-populated public game, you're forced to sit in your base and watch over it, or some kinda of choke points (usually no good ones), should the aliens continuously mara rush. The mara's new jump height means it can pretty always much jump over you if you're outside your base, doing some offense. So on larger maps, like Karith, unless you move your base closer to theirs (you shouldn't be forced into moving your base purely by reason of closing the A base to H base range), when you're halfway to their base, they can have their maras just jump over you and get in your base and do massive damage, potentially eliminating all your opportunities for offense. As I said, this example is weak, primarily because there's a way to stop it (don't feed them the evos they need for the maras).
I can't think of anymore at the moment. Most of these have their exceptions, but if you bring those up as arguments you just hit a loop where you're forced into using the exceptions. Some of these are more apparent in skilled games (PUGs, scrims), some are more apparent in public games. Either way they're all there, even if "forced" might be a dramatic synonym of a better word to use.
I do find GPP fun as it is now, but that doesn't prevent me from noticing the numerous annoyances it still has.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
There are many invite-level players in UrT that use G36 (one particular player is known for negev, he even used it during a semi-finals match), so comparing flamer to G36/negev is meaningless.
I'm talking cretins on public servers slagging off anyone who kills them with a g36, so the comparison is anything but meaningless here.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
First, I'm bad at UrT. Second, I'm not bad at humans. I'm bad at aliens. Get your facts straight.
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I'm not bad at humans. I'm bad at aliens.
You have way more alien kills than human kills. Am I missing something here?
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
First, I'm bad at UrT. Second, I'm not bad at humans. I'm bad at aliens. Get your facts straight.
What has that got to do with anything i said?
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
First, I'm bad at UrT. Second, I'm not bad at humans. I'm bad at aliens. Get your facts straight.
What has that got to do with anything i said?
Uh, you assume I play urt and am good at it. You also assume I suck at humans as you said, "The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly." I do fine with humans and don't use dodge or flamer.
I'm not bad at humans. I'm bad at aliens.
You have way more alien kills than human kills. Am I missing something here?
It's called killwhoring against S1 humans. It's not hard.
3.) You're forced to actually use dodge (maybe jumping but I'm pretty sure you'd just get killed trying it) against almost every goon (if you're not a gambler you call it as every goon, period) because if they exclusively use pouncing you have pretty much no chance of surviving by basic movement dodging because of how ridiculously easy it is to hit people with pounce.
I do find GPP fun as it is now, but that doesn't prevent me from noticing the numerous annoyances it still has.
False, I can jump and do fine against a goon. Even if they pounce whore.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
First, I'm bad at UrT. Second, I'm not bad at humans. I'm bad at aliens. Get your facts straight.
What has that got to do with anything i said?
Uh, you assume I play urt and am good at it. You also assume I suck at humans as you said, "The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly." I do fine with humans and don't use dodge or flamer.
I asked a question... Believe me, i made no assumption that you're good at anything.
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I hate the flamer. Why would I use it if its OP. Same reason I don't use dodge.
Are you also someone who considers the negev and g36 noob weapons in UrT and so wont touch them? The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly.
First, I'm bad at UrT. Second, I'm not bad at humans. I'm bad at aliens. Get your facts straight.
What has that got to do with anything i said?
Uh, you assume I play urt and am good at it. You also assume I suck at humans as you said, "The whole idea of just not using a function because you feel it would give you unfairly god-like abilities, and sucking because of it, is silly." I do fine with humans and don't use dodge or flamer.
I asked a question... Believe me, i made no assumption that you're good at anything.
k
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I find chain-suits boring, I avoid them unless I have a bunch of crap coming after me, or it's a rather heated situation.
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Are the test's on unlagged? Or without it?
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Are the test's on unlagged? Or without it?
Well, I'm pretty most/all of the dev's support unlagged. You tell me. :D
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I find it amusing people are using flamer now, since they're so damn easy to kill with a goon. I don't think it is still worth the 350 credits, but the buff has made it at least somewhat useful.
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I find it amusing people are using flamer now, since they're so damn easy to kill with a goon. I don't think it is still worth the 350 credits, but the buff has made it at least somewhat useful.
Please explain how its so easy?
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I find it amusing people are using flamer now, since they're so damn easy to kill with a goon. I don't think it is still worth the 350 credits, but the buff has made it at least somewhat useful.
Please explain how its so easy?
By sniping, poisoning, pouncing and chomping (in that order) them. Like what dragoons normally do.
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I find it amusing people are using flamer now, since they're so damn easy to kill with a goon. I don't think it is still worth the 350 credits, but the buff has made it at least somewhat useful.
Please explain how its so easy?
By sniping, poisoning, pouncing and chomping (in that order) them. Like what dragoons normally do.
Idk what you're talking about. I bet you half of the goons on US1 only think that there is right click for the goon. But thank you.
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I find it amusing people are using flamer now, since they're so damn easy to kill with a goon. I don't think it is still worth the 350 credits, but the buff has made it at least somewhat useful.
Please explain how its so easy?
By sniping, poisoning, pouncing and chomping (in that order) them. Like what dragoons normally do.
Idk what you're talking about. I bet you half of the goons on US1 only think that there is right click for the goon. But thank you.
If you don't snipe, you're an idiot (and super uncool).
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I find it amusing people are using flamer now, since they're so damn easy to kill with a goon. I don't think it is still worth the 350 credits, but the buff has made it at least somewhat useful.
Please explain how its so easy?
By sniping, poisoning, pouncing and chomping (in that order) them. Like what dragoons normally do.
Bear in mind that OhaiReapd won't use half of those because he's too pro and doesn't need to...
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I find it amusing people are using flamer now, since they're so damn easy to kill with a goon. I don't think it is still worth the 350 credits, but the buff has made it at least somewhat useful.
Please explain how its so easy?
By sniping, poisoning, pouncing and chomping (in that order) them. Like what dragoons normally do.
Bear in mind that OhaiReapd won't use half of those because he's too pro and doesn't need to...
Idk what you're talking about. The only thing I don't use is dodge. I've been using flamer a bit, and don't see the appeal. I find it boring, because the only way you kill things is by waiting for an alien to get caught on a door. Or by camping in front of an egg.
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Idk what you're talking about. The only thing I don't use is dodge. I've been using flamer a bit, and don't see the appeal. I find it boring, because the only way you kill things is by waiting for an alien to get caught on a door. Or by camping in front of an egg.
The flamer has been buffed WAY TOO much. I don't mind buffing it so its actually useful, but it is so OP against every alien.I don't run from lucis, but I have to with flamers. The knockback is retardedly strong.
OP or boringly ineffective, which is it?
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Idk what you're talking about. The only thing I don't use is dodge. I've been using flamer a bit, and don't see the appeal. I find it boring, because the only way you kill things is by waiting for an alien to get caught on a door. Or by camping in front of an egg.
The flamer has been buffed WAY TOO much. I don't mind buffing it so its actually useful, but it is so OP against every alien.I don't run from lucis, but I have to with flamers. The knockback is retardedly strong.
OP or boringly ineffective, which is it?
Neither. Annoying.
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Idk what you're talking about. The only thing I don't use is dodge. I've been using flamer a bit, and don't see the appeal. I find it boring, because the only way you kill things is by waiting for an alien to get caught on a door. Or by camping in front of an egg.
The flamer has been buffed WAY TOO much. I don't mind buffing it so its actually useful, but it is so OP against every alien.I don't run from lucis, but I have to with flamers. The knockback is retardedly strong.
OP or boringly ineffective, which is it?
Neither. Annoying.
This is why I fucking hate you.
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Idk what you're talking about. The only thing I don't use is dodge. I've been using flamer a bit, and don't see the appeal. I find it boring, because the only way you kill things is by waiting for an alien to get caught on a door. Or by camping in front of an egg.
The flamer has been buffed WAY TOO much. I don't mind buffing it so its actually useful, but it is so OP against every alien.I don't run from lucis, but I have to with flamers. The knockback is retardedly strong.
OP or boringly ineffective, which is it?
Neither. Annoying.
This is why I fucking hate you.
Are you serif? :o Not like I care.
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Idk what you're talking about. The only thing I don't use is dodge. I've been using flamer a bit, and don't see the appeal. I find it boring, because the only way you kill things is by waiting for an alien to get caught on a door. Or by camping in front of an egg.
The flamer has been buffed WAY TOO much. I don't mind buffing it so its actually useful, but it is so OP against every alien.I don't run from lucis, but I have to with flamers. The knockback is retardedly strong.
OP or boringly ineffective, which is it?
Neither. Annoying.
This is why I fucking hate you.
Are you serif? :o Not like I care.
I just meant that your lack of coherency is rather irritating.
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Idk what you're talking about. The only thing I don't use is dodge. I've been using flamer a bit, and don't see the appeal. I find it boring, because the only way you kill things is by waiting for an alien to get caught on a door. Or by camping in front of an egg.
The flamer has been buffed WAY TOO much. I don't mind buffing it so its actually useful, but it is so OP against every alien.I don't run from lucis, but I have to with flamers. The knockback is retardedly strong.
OP or boringly ineffective, which is it?
Neither. Annoying.
This is why I fucking hate you.
Are you serif? :o Not like I care.
I just meant that your lack of coherency is rather irritating.
Oh, ok. Well I meant that it was neither of those. It is annoying and probably is for several other people. It's annoyingly ineffective when on a open map, but anywhere else, aliens get fucked because of shitty doors. Like on spacetracks or Tremor.
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Oh, ok. Well I meant that it was neither of those. It is annoying and probably is for several other people. It's annoyingly ineffective when on a open map, but anywhere else, aliens get fucked because of shitty doors. Like on spacetracks or Tremor.
I'm not sure this complaint is entirely specific to the flamer(old or new)...
Either way, your argument changes every 30 seconds or so and i think now's a good time to just ignore your wittering.
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Oh, ok. Well I meant that it was neither of those. It is annoying and probably is for several other people. It's annoyingly ineffective when on a open map, but anywhere else, aliens get fucked because of shitty doors. Like on spacetracks or Tremor.
I'm not sure this complaint is entirely specific to the flamer(old or new)...
Either way, your argument changes every 30 seconds or so and i think now's a good time to just ignore your wittering.
Every thirty second as in 2 days for me to use it? K
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I'd just like to hop in and say something.
I came here to read about the changes, and suggestions and things from this phase. Not your silly fights >:(
On topic: Dracone has made some interesting points about being forced. I find myself in the situation all the time. Especially the part about rants and narrow halls, never heard of anything scarier in my life.
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Excuse the minor necro, but hey, it's good to see there's development still going on. :)
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hi ,
great works for the gameplay !
i hope you will remove the way to win money (or evo) and stage one day .
why ?
it s simple : you forced players to camp . to stay in base or in strategic position .
i imagine more things like: 3 way to progress . example : in human you choose 3 category of players you will be a st .
1 is an alien killer (so you win money and stage every times you kill an alien) ,
2 is a builder killer (you need to destroy building for money and stage)
3 is a builder medic (you need to build advanced post and medic X hp of your partner to pass a stage all the team need to kill 4 alien / person, to build 1 outpost , and destroy 2 tube for example .
Other thing : i have made a lot of sound for tremulous ; i can give you but i dont know how ! Plz pm me and i will give you in a data (witch function with tremulous :) )
PS : sorry for my english
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hi ,
great works for the gameplay !
i hope you will remove the way to win money (or evo) and stage one day .
why ?
it s simple : you forced players to camp . to stay in base or in strategic position .
i imagine more things like: 3 way to progress . example : in human you choose 3 category of players you will be a st .
1 is an alien killer (so you win money and stage every times you kill an alien) ,
2 is a builder killer (you need to destroy building for money and stage)
3 is a builder medic (you need to build advanced post and medic X hp of your partner to pass a stage all the team need to kill 4 alien / person, to build 1 outpost , and destroy 2 tube for example .
Other thing : i have made a lot of sound for tremulous ; i can give you but i dont know how ! Plz pm me and i will give you in a data (witch function with tremulous :) )
PS : sorry for my english
I think you and Tremhelper would make very, very good friends.
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+1
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I think you and Tremhelper would make very, very good friends.
Did you mean special friends?
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why? explain !
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Because he has the same sort of ideas as you.
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why? explain !
sorry but you are not allowed unique ideas here you must comply to the regime of mediocre balance changes or you will not be accepted as part of the community
welcome to tremushit
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not agree with tremhelper or what i read from him . my idea dont come from anywhere !
my idea come from the fact that tremulous is too static . i mean you camp you will win few thinks when you are human . i wanted that the evolution in tremulous is more dynamics . i mean that player must move a lot to win .i delete the system of "killing" because it s to short to explain wath this sort of game can be ! i mean building is not a secondary mission . it s as important as having money so weapon and as stage level .
the constation is that tremulous is a game which is play 2 races : human vs alien .
the both must destroy the spawn of their ennemy . they are few way to win :
- killing ennemies by camping
- killing ennemies by acting
- killing om / reac .
i dont think that winning by camping is a interested way !
a long time ago i saw few match between americans . the match take 30 min to finish . in that time they stay in base 25 min and they play 5 min ... do you think that it s a good game ? do you think it s attractive ? are only north american who can decide the orientation of the game ? do you think that the gameplay changes modifiy that "problem" ?
sry for my english and obtuseness of the language !
sound with data who can be use in tremulous actaully :
1)dl this :
http://www.thcteam.org/~frog/frog.pk3
2) take your data 1.1.0.pk3 in other folder and
3) replace this data by frog.pk3
it works on all server :)
not all the sound are good . but it make 2 years i haven't touch them . they are few test , they are few good sound . well test it and enjoy or not :)
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Who the hell is Tremhelper?
There's too much camping, but we need more builders too. The gameplay needs to have more action and less camping.
Camping is bad, mkay? Nobody likes it when a team camps the whole round.
PS: I made some sounds for you: http://www.thcteam.org/~frog/frog.pk3
Fixed.
Oh, and I agree completely.
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an idea, I think the gameplay will not change much
some spread fo lgun(more for realism, not much spread, very small spread, i hate the perfect aim XD) and mdriver, and some spread for prifle(more like rifle)
.
and change the lucis secondary fire, because its is much like MD i think, maybe, less fireinterval(like 1.1 lucis secundary), damage and small spread, has a similar speed of 1.1 prifle bullets.
random idea, maybe, this idea could be tested on oficial servers.
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an idea, I think the gameplay will not change much
some spread fo lgun(more for realism, not much spread, very small spread, i hate the perfect aim XD) and mdriver, and some spread for prifle(more like rifle)
.
and change the lucis secondary fire, because its is much like MD i think, maybe, less fireinterval(like 1.1 lucis secundary), damage and small spread, has a similar speed of 1.1 prifle bullets.
random idea, maybe, this idea could be tested on oficial servers.
no.
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Considering the time between MD shots, implementing an uncontrollable spread would make it a suicidal weapon. You'd have to halve the damage and double the refire. By the end of it, you'd have a completely different weapon with no significant change to gameplay, function, fun value, or balance, and everyone would be asking "why"? Changes are generally not made "for shits".
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an idea, I think the gameplay will not change much
some spread fo lgun(more for realism, not much spread, very small spread, i hate the perfect aim XD) and mdriver, and some spread for prifle(more like rifle)
.
and change the lucis secondary fire, because its is much like MD i think, maybe, less fireinterval(like 1.1 lucis secundary), damage and small spread, has a similar speed of 1.1 prifle bullets.
random idea, maybe, this idea could be tested on oficial servers.
Realism??? How can a laser have spread? Do you even know what is a laser? For dev's sake, stop suggesting...
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Realism??? How can a laser have spread?
We need to specially devise a laserdiode-shaking device because REALISM.
For dev's sake, stop suggesting...
also lol.
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an idea, I think the gameplay will not change much
some spread fo lgun(more for realism, not much spread, very small spread, i hate the perfect aim XD) and mdriver, and some spread for prifle(more like rifle)
.
and change the lucis secondary fire, because its is much like MD i think, maybe, less fireinterval(like 1.1 lucis secundary), damage and small spread, has a similar speed of 1.1 prifle bullets.
random idea, maybe, this idea could be tested on oficial servers.
Realism??? How can a laser have spread? Do you even know what is a laser? For dev's sake, stop suggesting...
lasers? i see, pulse rifles, flames, electric guns, not laser : D- yes, firearms in real life dont have much spread,(ok, shotguns and others exceptions)nobody is accurate like terminator, spread have you ; ). Simply put, no one has 100% aim.
and Haraldx, you love me? I know you love me, was the first sight you fell in love...for me, yes? ; )
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lasers? i see, pulse rifles, flames, electric guns, not laser : D- yes, firearms in real life dont have much spread,(ok, shotguns and others exceptions)nobody is accurate like terminator, spread have you ; ). Simply put, no one has 100% aim.
And nobody DOES have "100% aim". Do you see anyone, even with a mass driver/lasgun, that consistently, 100% of the time, ALWAYS lands every single shot they fire? No! Everyone's aim is imperfect anyway! We're human, we're all imperfect.
But really, if the lasgun and MD don't shoot some kind of laser, what do they shoot, and why would it be inaccurate?
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As I recall MD is a coil or rail gun, and fires very small particles at insanely high speed.
I think the las gun is a laser.
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As I recall MD is a coil or rail gun, and fires very small particles at insanely high speed.
Sounds about right. That would fire pretty accurately, though, right?
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The argument here is that "IRL no one has 100% aim. This is NOT because of their weapon, but because of their skill. THEREFORE, to emulate real life, in Tremulous the WEAPON should hinder a player's aim, not their skill." Also, refer to my earlier post about the process by which the MD would have to be rebalanced, and please tell us WHY you would like this change. "REALISM" is NOT a valid reason.
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The argument here is that "IRL no one has 100% aim. This is NOT because of their weapon, but because of their skill. THEREFORE, to emulate real life, in Tremulous the WEAPON should hinder a player's aim, not their skill." Also, refer to my earlier post about the process by which the MD would have to be rebalanced, and please tell us WHY you would like this change. "REALISM" is NOT a valid reason.
I'm fine with the status quo. I thought that was clear.
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The argument here is that "IRL no one has 100% aim. This is NOT because of their weapon, but because of their skill. THEREFORE, to emulate real life, in Tremulous the WEAPON should hinder a player's aim, not their skill." Also, refer to my earlier post about the process by which the MD would have to be rebalanced, and please tell us WHY you would like this change. "REALISM" is NOT a valid reason.
fun over realistm, but, realist is a valid reason. i dont like to see humans usin kameramera or aliens with heavy machine guns.
i dont want a insane spread for lgun or md, only, a small spread(less at rifle), something like wolfet weapons(mp40,Thompson or Sten) or counter strike's aug/sg552 secundary fire, not make much difference in gameplay, and even if you do, will be negligible because the aliens are weaker (compared to 1.1).
same spread for prifle, because this gun is easy to use, and do not have many cons points compared to the benefits(good damage,lose/long rage,perfect aim, bullet speed is fine,good ROF, ammo clip+Bpack..), the spread can make it more like a smg, not a improved rifle/lgun.
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lasgun stands for laser... lasers also don't have any recoil - a laser is a frickin' light insanely forced in 1 point. And shotguns don't have much spread! Not even near the one you see in Tremulous! For fucks sake get a life finally! What's the use of making a gun have lower spread than a rifle if the rifle always hit it's target if aimed correctly? A gun in-game doesn't have to simulate people lack of skill, as stated earlier by Plague Bringer. Eh... I'm exhausted... can someone just ban him or something?
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fun over realistm, but, realist is a valid reason. i dont like to see humans usin kameramera or aliens with heavy machine guns.
i dont want a insane spread for lgun or md, only, a small spread(less at rifle), something like wolfet weapons(mp40,Thompson or Sten) or counter strike's aug/sg552 secundary fire, not make much difference in gameplay, and even if you do, will be negligible because the aliens are weaker (compared to 1.1).
same spread for prifle, because this gun is easy to use, and do not have many cons points compared to the benefits(good damage,lose/long rage,perfect aim, bullet speed is fine,good ROF, ammo clip+Bpack..), the spread can make it more like a smg, not a improved rifle/lgun.
... This is Tremulous... Not Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory neither Counter Strike... For God's sake man...
No one doesn't got totally perfect aim, even if gun has 0 percent chance to miss. Even I keep missing shots fairly often with mass driver or laser gun.
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lasgun stands for laser... lasers also don't have any recoil - a laser is a frickin' light insanely forced in 1 point. And shotguns don't have much spread! Not even near the one you see in Tremulous! For fucks sake get a life finally! What's the use of making a gun have lower spread than a rifle if the rifle always hit it's target if aimed correctly? A gun in-game doesn't have to simulate people lack of skill, as stated earlier by Plague Bringer. Eh... I'm exhausted... can someone just ban him or something?
hey guy, relax,this guy need a hug.
as I said, the weapon can be accurate, but you're not, you can not aim with 100% accuracy, the very small spread do not affect the gameplay much, so add a touch of realism ; )
ok guy, peferct aim for all guns(chaingun and rifle).
fun over realistm, but, realist is a valid reason. i dont like to see humans usin kameramera or aliens with heavy machine guns.
i dont want a insane spread for lgun or md, only, a small spread(less at rifle), something like wolfet weapons(mp40,Thompson or Sten) or counter strike's aug/sg552 secundary fire, not make much difference in gameplay, and even if you do, will be negligible because the aliens are weaker (compared to 1.1).
same spread for prifle, because this gun is easy to use, and do not have many cons points compared to the benefits(good damage,lose/long rage,perfect aim, bullet speed is fine,good ROF, ammo clip+Bpack..), the spread can make it more like a smg, not a improved rifle/lgun.
... This is Tremulous... Not Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory neither Counter Strike... For God's sake man...
No one doesn't got totally perfect aim, even if gun has 0 percent chance to miss. Even I keep missing shots fairly often with mass driver or laser gun.
A gun in-game doesn't have to simulate people lack of skill
I know this is tremulous and not other games, I'm just giving an idea of what would be the spread of weapons, but some people think I want to transform tremulous in counter strike or other game.
like sten spread(see it, long range spread)
http://enemyterritorytips.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/mp40_vs_thomson_spread.jpg
stean spread are peferct for lgun, and some less for md
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Ask yourself "what is the benefit?" How is this more fun for humans? Artificial difficulty (in this case, spread) is not a good gameplay mechanic. Implementing spread purely on the basis of "realism" in a game like Tremulous is absurd because Tremulous does not aspire to be realistic. If you could give examples of how this would be more fun, and not frustrating (MDs are hard to use. Making people miss shots for no reason is frustrating.) then your idea would likely be considered (at least, by the community).
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Now could someone explain to me how it would make the game more realistic if a laser weapon had spread?
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hey guy, relax,this guy need a hug.
I need you dead or banned from TrueCombat and Tremulous forums...
as I said, the weapon can be accurate, but you're not, you can not aim with 100% accuracy, the very small spread do not affect the gameplay much
A gun in-game doesn't have to simulate people lack of skill
You just owned yourself..., so add a touch of realism ; )
I'm telling you for the 3rd (if not more) fuckin' time that lasers don't have spread!!!
You don't understand 1 thing... in video games, lack of skill with guns in real life is the same as in video games - in real life you have problems with holding the gun steady, while in video games you just have problems with moving the mouse quickly enough or stuff like that.
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This argument is pointless. The guns are accurate _because_ they are meant to be realistic. A railgun has noticeable spread? A laser does? Good job redefining modern-day physics.
That's like saying the lasgun should have non-hitscan projectiles for great realism.
long rage
also lol
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hey guy, relax,this guy need a hug.
I need you dead or banned from TrueCombat and Tremulous forums...
as I said, the weapon can be accurate, but you're not, you can not aim with 100% accuracy, the very small spread do not affect the gameplay much
A gun in-game doesn't have to simulate people lack of skill
You just owned yourself..., so add a touch of realism ; )
I'm telling you for the 3rd (if not more) fuckin' time that lasers don't have spread!!!
You don't understand 1 thing... in video games, lack of skill with guns in real life is the same as in video games - in real life you have problems with holding the gun steady, while in video games you just have problems with moving the mouse quickly enough or stuff like that.
TC forums have been dead for a while and CQB is dying.
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Ask yourself "what is the benefit?" How is this more fun for humans? Artificial difficulty (in this case, spread) is not a good gameplay mechanic. Implementing spread purely on the basis of "realism" in a game like Tremulous is absurd because Tremulous does not aspire to be realistic. If you could give examples of how this would be more fun, and not frustrating (MDs are hard to use. Making people miss shots for no reason is frustrating.) then your idea would likely be considered (at least, by the community).
MD would not spread much, it would be nearly meaningless(very very small spread, would be to remove the perfect aim), you hardly missing a shot because of the spread, perhaps in very large maps(not in oficial maps like acts).
about gameplay, spread help in balance, prevent some camping, or, help to kill small aliens in close range(yes, in close range some spread help), prifle + rifle spread = perfect for close range.
some weapons of 1.2 has no much negative points, some details like reload or spread can help to balance these weapons, taking into account that aliens are weaker in 1.2(compared to 1.1. aliens).
like rapid reload for lgun(like 1,5 or 2 seconds) every 25 shots, lgun would have a bit of spread and damage(maybe, +1), the gun would be more realistic at the same time that would give aliens time to attack. (of course, lgun could be a bit cheaper, like 200 credits). and fast reload for blaster(every 8 shots, 1 second)
and about laser cant have spread..., see the weapons anims, the guns have some recoil, while his aim remains perfect, realism?
TC forums have been dead for a while and CQB is dying.
but, some players still playing tce(even the game being very buggy, still very fun), the problem of cqb is the 1 map to play(beta), but ok, in next version he had been open for mods and maps, tremulous survived until today because of the players, maps and mods : )
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Spread is NOT REALISTIC FOR MD OR LASGUN
Seriously, lasers SHOOT IN A STRAIGHT LINE
and md shoots fast enough shots they go straight too.
Are you getting it yet?
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Did you know lasgun has no reload on purpose, which is countered by it's low damage per second - which makes the weapon unique?
Quite frankly, your ideas suck.
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I think you're all posting in a troll thread.
and about laser cant have spread..., see the weapons anims, the guns have some recoil, while his aim remains perfect, realism?
Assuming you're not a troll for a second, you fail physics forever. Let me explain:
Recoil is force.
Force is mass times acceleration.
Lasers fire concentrated light particles.
Light particles have close to zero mass.
Thus, the recoil caused by them is close to zero.
If you're not trolling, and if you're going for realism, I think you need to stop learning physics from anime.
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I think you're all posting in a troll thread.
and about laser cant have spread..., see the weapons anims, the guns have some recoil, while his aim remains perfect, realism?
Assuming you're not a troll for a second, you fail physics forever. Let me explain:
Recoil is force.
Force is mass times acceleration.
Lasers fire concentrated light particles.
Light particles have close to zero mass.
Thus, the recoil caused by them is close to zero.
If you're not trolling, and if you're going for realism, I think you need to stop learning physics from anime.
there are "no lasers" in tremulous, I'm not talking about physically, I'm talking about fiction futuristic weapons, in "tremulous, weapons" the guns have recoil(see the prifle's fire animation, same thing for lgun), the same thing for the new models:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HUeJ_f3V30
and, i not much fan of anime, but,i like gantz's manga and cowboy bebop : )
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and about laser cant have spread..., see the weapons anims, the guns have some recoil, while his aim remains perfect, realism?
Lasers don't have recoil! Since it's Quake 3 engine, there is a firing animation 1 for every gun.
TC forums have been dead for a while and CQB is dying.
but, some players still playing tce(even the game being very buggy, still very fun), the problem of cqb is the 1 map to play(beta), but ok, in next version he had been open for mods and maps, tremulous survived until today because of the players, maps and mods : )
It's alpha not beta you moron. Fuck mods - what is the use of having an alpha test of a game if the official version is not tested anyway? The same use of you suggesting your dumbass suggestions. If Coroner will (and I hope he will) make the mod out of alpha and maybe even furter I can see True Combat flourishing once again.
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there are "no lasers" in tremulous, I'm not talking about physically, I'm talking about fiction futuristic weapons, in "tremulous, weapons" the guns have recoil(see the prifle's fire animation, same thing for lgun), the same thing for the new models:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HUeJ_f3V30
and, i not much fan of anime, but,i like gantz's manga and cowboy bebop : )
You know what? I'm done. You're definitely a troll. Nobody's so stupid that they can't tell the difference between projectile and energy weapons.
I'm out. Everyone else should be too. There's just no point in arguing with a troll.
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there are "no lasers" in tremulous, I'm not talking about physically, I'm talking about fiction futuristic weapons, in "tremulous, weapons" the guns have recoil(see the prifle's fire animation, same thing for lgun), the same thing for the new models:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HUeJ_f3V30
and, i not much fan of anime, but,i like gantz's manga and cowboy bebop : )
You know what? I'm done. You're definitely a troll. Nobody's so stupid that they can't tell the difference between projectile and energy weapons.
I'm out. Everyone else should be too. There's just no point in arguing with a troll.
Yeah, I'm out too, he wants to make stuff realistic that he understands isn't realistic and the problem is found elsewhere.
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the true laser like it,unlike tremulous weapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwaMNab5pw
fear's laser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-7wmP9Aiqk
trem's guns is more like pulse rifles or eletric guns, not lasers.
about animation, I believe it is possible to use different animations for each weapon, an example is the reload animation in the new 1.2 models
Actually, I believe that the small spread for lgun and prifle help in gamebalance, rather than their mess.
laser or not, nobody can hold a gun like a robot, and have surgical precision.
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the true laser like it,unlike tremulous weapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwaMNab5pw
fear's laser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-7wmP9Aiqk
A "James Bond laser" and a weapon from a video game.
Bye now.
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tremulous are a game, no?
i give to you 2 videos, one real and other from a game, duh, see the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SFilo7To0Q
I think some guys are watching too much starwars
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wolfbr, you are neglecting to give reasons why this will improve balance. You are talking out of your ass. "REALISM" by itself is NOT a valid reason to implement a feature like this in Tremulous, or any game that does not attempt to emulate real life. Give us more reasons. "Gameplay" is not a reason. "Gameplay because..." IS. "It is the future" is NOT a valid argument for why Tremulous is realistic. Tremulous is NOT realistic, and (like I've said two or three times) trying to argue for a change purely on the basis of realism will get you nowhere. WHY will recoil benefit gameplay or balance? I've told you that making players miss shots for absolutely no reason with the MD will only frustrate players, leading to many changes to allow misses to effect the MD less, and completely changing how the weapon works. You did not argue against that. You did not give any reasons for why the lasgun should be more inaccurate. Is it too accurate? Is Tremulous imbalanced because of it? Is it OP? I doubt all of these things.
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wolfbr, you are neglecting to give reasons why this will improve balance.
Alternative diagnoses:
- He is a moron.
- He is attempting to troll.
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wolfbr, you are neglecting to give reasons why this will improve balance. You are talking out of your ass. "REALISM" by itself is NOT a valid reason to implement a feature like this in Tremulous, or any game that does not attempt to emulate real life. Give us more reasons. "Gameplay" is not a reason. "Gameplay because..." IS. "It is the future" is NOT a valid argument for why Tremulous is realistic. Tremulous is NOT realistic, and (like I've said two or three times) trying to argue for a change purely on the basis of realism will get you nowhere. WHY will recoil benefit gameplay or balance? I've told you that making players miss shots for absolutely no reason with the MD will only frustrate players, leading to many changes to allow misses to effect the MD less, and completely changing how the weapon works. You did not argue against that. You did not give any reasons for why the lasgun should be more inaccurate. Is it too accurate? Is Tremulous imbalanced because of it? Is it OP? I doubt all of these things.
I have already cited several reasons the topic, ok, I shall summarize them back to you.
lgun spread> in some situation,help in close range to kill small aliens or can help aliens catch up with human, reduces the efficiency of camper(especially those who are helping other players by far).reload for lgun- give a small chage to the aliens get close safely, or in escapes, reduces the efficiency of the reactor/Repeater camping, same thing for spread in lgun or prifle.
for MD, suggest that the spread would be petty(very very very small spread), almost no one can see, perhaps, in some situations, very open maps, you might miss a dreatch, but not affect in the official maps.in short, normally, you "would not miss their shots".
----
for all>
The fact that someone disagrees with my ideas, is not justification to attack me, I will not answer insults, have a good day : )
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Why are you interested in balancing weapons for maps that are poorly designed? There should be no map where the changes you are proposing to the MD will work.
The lasgun has poor damage and slow firing speed. It is, however, an accurate weapon. The lgun is the medium-long range version of the short-medium range rifle. Why on earth would you want to rebalance a long range weapon to fulfill a duty that's already covered? Also, camping in a tactical position (a forward) is something that should never be allowed by the alien team. If humans manage to get a forward up then they should reap the benefits (free energy weapon ammo, a medi, and turret cover). If, however, you think that there is another situation in which a camper will be able to help his team win the game by camping, feel free to say so. As it is, though, there are no effective base positions that will allow a player to both camp AND fight at the enemy base.
It seems that all of your reasons for rebalancing weapons are rather silly. Aliens don't need help attacking lgunners any more than they do attacking riflers, and any situation that would allow you to camp with a lasgun or snipe with an MD should not be situations in vanilla Tremulous. Community maps are NOT to be balanced for.
ALSO, repeater camping without reloads is possible with any energy weapon. It takes less than a second to buy ammo.
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tremulous are a game, no?
i give to you 2 videos, one real and other from a game, duh, see the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SFilo7To0Q
I think some guys are watching too much starwars
what part of "a laser is light focused onto a single point" do you not understand? it would take the mass of a planet scale object to cause the trajectory of the light to bend or "spread" from your point of aim. light is an electromagnetic emission (you know, visible light being part of the spectrum that includes infra-red (heat) energy, and ultraviolet (x-rays) energy. would my lightbulb have recoil? why to arc-wielders NOT have recoil (especially compared to an acetiline wielder, where you can FEEL the expelled gas pushing your hand back)
nowhere have i heard that the prifle was a laser weapon. i've always assumed it was like the q3 weapon it was created from - the plasma rifle. considering a "projectile" made of plasma would have to overcome atmospheric resistance, i've found both the pulse and plasma rifles to be sufficiently realistic for my gameplay enjoyment.
now, realistically, a MD should have TREMENDOUS recoil, even if it is accelerating its projectiles with magnets, but "this is da footcha" i can accept it does not considering X x 100 years of arms development.
wolfbr, you also fail to apply your own arguments to your reasoning for "realistic balance". why can the humans NOT have robotic accuracy? this is the future. they are all specially designed and augmented combat clones. in the real world, it might not be too long before we can start fielding footsoldier robots. if i were going to people my military with clones rather than machines, the clones better have a damn big advantage over machines. machines are far more inexpensive, easier to repair, and do not take as many years to "grow" and "train". the machines do not even need to be autonomic. consider the predator drones, currently in use.
yes, tremulous can have some changes made to make gameplay more fun, and perhaps even more "realistic" (of course, in a sci-fi setting, "realistic" is extremely subjective) but the changes you suggest are quite senseless. in reality, the lasgun is really not too much better than a rifle. spread and reload would change it from "rifle equivalent" to "rifle clone". i agree that the MD needs tweaking, but i feel this is more a matter of damage done vs target hp, rather than a need for spread.
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I'm not going to really answer him about the videos he posted (as I'm not going to talk with him anyway as it just makes him post even more bullshit), but everyone knows that high force lasers consume very much energy, the lasgun seems to shoot the laser and then has a half-second recharge not to overheat or empty the battery too fast.
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what part of "a laser is light focused onto a single point" do you not understand? it would take the mass of a planet scale object to cause the trajectory of the light to bend or "spread" from your point of aim.
or just enough distance since light produced by a laser won't be perfectly collimated; but the spread would not be in the sense intended
now, realistically, a MD should have TREMENDOUS recoil
it's more likely that you would get pushed in the direction you fired, but not TREMENDOUSly
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now, realistically, a MD should have TREMENDOUS recoil
it's more likely that you would get pushed in the direction you fired, but not TREMENDOUSly
depends. assuming a "perfect" recoil buffer system, the velocity of the projectile would likely carry you with it. lacking such a system, you'd likely have the weapon take your shoulder off, if not bodily fling you backwards at a high velocity, really depending on barrel length and where the projectile goes supersonic. take a look at the railgun prototypes in production now. they are anything but recoilless.
furthermore, depending on projectile velocity, the projectile would cause a "suction" phenomenon. anything within range would suffer serious injury.
consider armor piercing tank shells. anything within, i dont know, say 5-10 feet of a passing AP round will get "sucked in" after the round. closer may result in you losing limbs to the suction force. AP when it HITS is decidedly nasty. i seem to remember reading about the depleted uranium rounds. the 120mm tank shell passed through something like 7 BMPs (a BMP is a warsaw-pact armored troop carrier) and liquidised the test-subject monkeys in the crew compartment of the last BMP.
just going off of memory here. back when i was active military i could remember more of the details behind the whole thing, but it has been a while. let's not forget newton, though. accelerating a projectile to such a velocity in such a short span of time will produce a reaction. one we typically call recoil.
i will concede i am not the most educated about the physics of light.
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liquidised the test-subject monkeys
:'(
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liquidised the test-subject monkeys
:'(
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/3741977187_dc1692de17.jpg)
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liquidised the test-subject monkeys
:'(
and just think of what such rounds have done to actual human beings since the those days of testing.
killing is messy, not like in the movies. even as over-the-top most movies are concerning many details, they almost never accurately depict the damage the real tools of war are capable of.
back in basic training, when first firing the 25mm chaingun of the bradly, a deer got hit by a training round. there were four largish chunks of deer after that, and a lot of material best described as "liquidised". shit sucked, cleaning up that mess.
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Why are you interested in balancing weapons for maps that are poorly designed? There should be no map where the changes you are proposing to the MD will work.
The lasgun has poor damage and slow firing speed. It is, however, an accurate weapon. The lgun is the medium-long range version of the short-medium range rifle. Why on earth would you want to rebalance a long range weapon to fulfill a duty that's already covered? Also, camping in a tactical position (a forward) is something that should never be allowed by the alien team. If humans manage to get a forward up then they should reap the benefits (free energy weapon ammo, a medi, and turret cover). If, however, you think that there is another situation in which a camper will be able to help his team win the game by camping, feel free to say so. As it is, though, there are no effective base positions that will allow a player to both camp AND fight at the enemy base.
It seems that all of your reasons for rebalancing weapons are rather silly. Aliens don't need help attacking lgunners any more than they do attacking riflers, and any situation that would allow you to camp with a lasgun or snipe with an MD should not be situations in vanilla Tremulous. Community maps are NOT to be balanced for.
ALSO, repeater camping without reloads is possible with any energy weapon. It takes less than a second to buy ammo.
lgun remain a weapon with precision, but would not have surgical/robotic precision. weapons have not spread, humans have : P.
about repeater camper, maybe, there is a way to fix it, simple, delaytime to reload your weapon(like 5 seconds or more)
about MD, the verysmall spread is more for realism, not affect the gameplay much, perhaps over long distances, the player would have to target the center of the aliens (the corners are at risk of erring),yes, to kill in long range, you need to aim well, especially against small aliens : ).
and for me, lgun is like more a eletric gun(it fires small bundles of energy at the enemy
, but, I think nobody knows for sure how it works, like star wars or gantz weapons :P
but everyone knows that high force lasers consume very much energy, the lasgun seems to shoot the laser and then has a half-second recharge not to overheat or empty the battery too fast.
lgun have recoil, lasers gun have no recoil, so gun does not shoot lasers : )
wolfbr, you also fail to apply your own arguments to your reasoning for "realistic balance". why can the humans NOT have robotic accuracy? this is the future. they are all specially designed and augmented combat clones. in the real world, it might not be too long before we can start fielding footsoldier robots. if i were going to people my military with clones rather than machines, the clones better have a damn big advantage over machines. machines are far more inexpensive, easier to repair, and do not take as many years to "grow" and "train". the machines do not even need to be autonomic. consider the predator drones, currently in use.
the best soldier, and with better accuracy, one would still not 100% accurate, even being well-trained clones (like star wars: P) would still not be "perfect", in tremulous, humans are not perfect like jedi warriors : P.
and robots are already used in irak, and the U.S. is already developing a "battlesuit" :battlesuit:
as I said, the weapons can be perfect(precision), but not humans, and therefore should not have 100% accuracy
yes, tremulous can have some changes made to make gameplay more fun, and perhaps even more "realistic" (of course, in a sci-fi setting, "realistic" is extremely subjective) but the changes you suggest are quite senseless. in reality, the lasgun is really not too much better than a rifle. spread and reload would change it from "rifle equivalent" to "rifle clone". i agree that the MD needs tweaking, but i feel this is more a matter of damage done vs target hp, rather than a need for spread.
not exactly equal.
rifle,lgun,chaingun and rifle, all are automatic, and have their differences, it would not change, like other games(especially those with several firearms, however, each with its pros on cons, like the fact that they do not make them equal).
some spread for lgun,"fast reload" time and maybe more damage, make it better in long range, the rifle still takes longer to recharge, and lgun has the advantage of being recharged at various locations(reapeter and reactor), I imagine the lgun more like hl2 pulse rifle(fast reload,slow fire interval, good damage, and,accurately)
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Everything in my post said that repeater campers deserved to camp their repeaters. I also said that camping cannot contribute significantly to offense in any well designed map and therefore, it is not a problem that needs fixing. You may think otherwise. If you do, I invite you to give reasons and explanations.
I'm not understanding your arguments about accuracy. You understand that the examples you're using are all very heavily based in reality, right? Do you also understand that "spread" doesn't exist so much as recoil does? Spread is negligible at the ranges experienced in Tremulous. Recoil, however, most certainly is not. Spread belongs in Tremulous (where it is already). Recoil does not. Tremulous DOES NOT aim to emulate real life. Nor does Urban Terror or Enemy Territory. Realism, contrary to what you seem to believe, is not necessary in every game - in some, it does not belong.
I cannot understand your arguments. You're basically saying that you think weapons should have a spread so small that it won't effect gameplay. Why? Also, are you trying to tell me that your aim is perfect? Do you hit every shot in Tremulous? I certainly don't. Innacuracy does not need to be forced. Like I've said, it will be frustrating at best, and very pointless. I don't understand why giving MD enough spread to make long distance sniping (something that should not be possible in most scenarios in a vanilla map) will have any effect on gameplay, balance, or fun, and any more spread will make it frustrating to use.
For the last time, you are complaining about realism in a game where aliens transform into other aliens on a whim. I simply will not accept that as a reason to consider any suggestions valid, and you sure as hell can expect the devs will react the same way.
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realism
Realism???
REALISM.
"REALISM"
realistm, realist
realism ; )
"realism"
realistic
realistic. realism.
realistic, realism?
REALISTIC
realism,
realistic realistic
"REALISM". realistic. realistic, realism
realistic. realistically, "realistic". "realistic", "realistic". reality,
realism,
reality? Realism. realism
Quick, someone make (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7BUd2KaK8g) a song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT06siITu0Q) out of this!
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Gah, seems none of valid points doesn't hit...
Unless Mr. Military Physics (a.k.a RAKninja-Decepticon) didn't tell you, let me recite what I know too.
light is an electromagnetic emission (you know, visible light being part of the spectrum that includes infra-red (heat) energy, and ultraviolet (x-rays) energy. would my lightbulb have recoil? why to arc-wielders NOT have recoil (especially compared to an acetiline wielder, where you can FEEL the expelled gas pushing your hand back)
Also, if mass driver has *any* spread, then someone fucked up with those riflings, and should be *immediately* sacked.
Now, only game where real life rules should apply in game, it should only be Operation Flashpoint... And this forum is only for Tremulous.
Tl;dr... There are lot of other essential tweaking than this lasgun/mass driver spread.
Now...
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSLqvFr08SZ9jN-i0yZGl93KqsvMYFfm--AP1lrPjqL4VgZlO5G)
Also: 45 posts of wanking same idea.
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[wiki]Tremulous is a very realistic game[/wiki]
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Gah, seems none of valid points doesn't hit...
Unless Mr. Military Physics (a.k.a RAKninja-Decepticon) didn't tell you, let me recite what I know too.
\=|
i dont even know how to respond to that.
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I can make useless physics points as well as the next man (Light does have recoil!) but, realism is silly and tremulous is awesome. I don't think we should do anything to change that.
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Everything in my post said that repeater campers deserved to camp their repeaters. I also said that camping cannot contribute significantly to offense in any well designed map and therefore, it is not a problem that needs fixing. You may think otherwise. If you do, I invite you to give reasons and explanations.
I'm not understanding your arguments about accuracy. You understand that the examples you're using are all very heavily based in reality, right? Do you also understand that "spread" doesn't exist so much as recoil does? Spread is negligible at the ranges experienced in Tremulous. Recoil, however, most certainly is not. Spread belongs in Tremulous (where it is already). Recoil does not. Tremulous DOES NOT aim to emulate real life. Nor does Urban Terror or Enemy Territory. Realism, contrary to what you seem to believe, is not necessary in every game - in some, it does not belong.
I cannot understand your arguments. You're basically saying that you think weapons should have a spread so small that it won't effect gameplay. Why? Also, are you trying to tell me that your aim is perfect? Do you hit every shot in Tremulous? I certainly don't. Innacuracy does not need to be forced. Like I've said, it will be frustrating at best, and very pointless. I don't understand why giving MD enough spread to make long distance sniping (something that should not be possible in most scenarios in a vanilla map) will have any effect on gameplay, balance, or fun, and any more spread will make it frustrating to use.
For the last time, you are complaining about realism in a game where aliens transform into other aliens on a whim. I simply will not accept that as a reason to consider any suggestions valid, and you sure as hell can expect the devs will react the same way.
camping contributes to the victory, because humans make credit easier, while the aliens lose veo points, this is not much fun.
I think is interesting the idea to set up small bases around the map, but not the idea of fortresses(nob camping, no reload guns, infinite ammo without reloading, great convenience.
in games, fun over realism, but, without a small realism, the fun gets lost a little, Basically, the gameplay and realism must go hand in hand, be weighed on a scale.
and, urban terror and wolfet, are not the most realistic games(wolfet = 4 or 5 headshots to kill, smg are the best weapons in the game(and have an incredible precision), lmg fires plasma shots...) and urban terror, no coments, go to urbterror oficial site (fun over realism).
the game more realistic I know are A.R.M.A,BF project reality and red orchestra, for old machines = H&D and q2 dday normandy, and several semi realistic spread out there(like true combat elite, hl2 insurgency..)
and because of my aim is not perfect, I think just adding a little spread in guns.
the new 1.2 models look good? what is the problem of having an reload animation for the lgun?
about lgun spread,is more like it. se the AR2 video(default model)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRKuMJXjWto
other video(custom model), go to 0:23 and, 0:33 = fast reload, 0:53 = long distance shots)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgHAwTNv5F4
the gun still has a good accuracy, but it would be unrealistic.
Now, only game where real life rules should apply in game, it should only be Operation Flashpoint... And this forum is only for Tremulous.
no game is 100% realistic, however, a bit of realism in any game is welcome.
tremulous has a little realism, like the stamina bar. however, some elements of realism can be added without compromising the arcade gameplay.(COD aim would not be good in tremulous, but a bit of zoom for some weapons(like rifle or some more for lgun, and very small for blaster) could be interesting.)
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And now zooming for a machine gun (submachine gun, laser packet dispenser, whatever) without a scope contributes to realism the same degree a stamina bar does.
Keep going.
(http://bfolder.ru/_ph/36/2/196793214.gif)
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and because of my aim is not perfect, I think just adding a little spread in guns.
That's about the worst reason I've heard for anything balance-related.
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(http://bfolder.ru/_ph/36/2/196793214.gif)
Me too
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And now zooming for a machine gun (submachine gun, laser packet dispenser, whatever) without a scope contributes to realism the same degree a stamina bar does.
Keep going.
(http://bfolder.ru/_ph/36/2/196793214.gif)
have you seen the new models of 1.2?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgYA4UxtY-A
ok, its more like holosights, but, tremulous is happening in the future, so this type of sight would have zoom ; ).
yes, many arcades games the weapons have zoom, in some severs, lgun have a small zoom.
I do not think all the guns accuracy of zoom, but it would be interesting to some guns have zoom.
-- about fu** this tread
me to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxc1CPu9bqI&feature=related
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ok, its more like holosights, but, tremulous is happening in the future, so this type of sight would have zoom ; ).
yes, many arcades games the weapons have zoom, in some severs, (:|:)lgun have a small zoom.
(=|=)I do not think all the guns accuracy of zoom, but it would be interesting to some guns have zoom.
I don't quiet know how to use holosights without a another sight on the other sight of a gun (the holosight is the only sight thing you've got, on a normal gun such as a pistol, you have a 'mini trench' at the back and a 'bump' at the front)
Anyways:
(:|:): Only korx has a lasgun with small zoom. And mods of korx, or korx-related such as some versions of TremX. [which it originated from]
(=|=): I agree. At least have the normal weapons a minor zoom less than what you see on korx's lasun though. Like 1.5/1.2x? [although it would be practically pointless].
Also, isn't tremulous the sort of game where you actually don't need all these sights? I mean, when i use MD, when other MD pros use MD, they almost/hardly ever use the zoom in combat. It's not like you're going to scope-shoot cheat. There's no point.
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I mean, when i use MD, when other MD pros use MD...
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080828091039/aliens/images/e/e2/Umgah.gif)
HAR! HAR! HAR!
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I don't quiet know how to use holosights without a another sight on the other sight of a gun (the holosight is the only sight thing you've got, on a normal gun such as a pistol, you have a 'mini trench' at the back and a 'bump' at the front)
understand, but the models are still betas, maybe this is arranged in the future
Anyways:
(:|:): Only korx has a lasgun with small zoom. And mods of korx, or korx-related such as some versions of TremX. [which it originated from]
(=|=): I agree. At least have the normal weapons a minor zoom less than what you see on korx's lasun though. Like 1.5/1.2x? [although it would be practically pointless].
zoom should vary with the accuracy and usefulness of the weapon,
like, zoom size- md>>lgun>blaster>rifle>prifle
-prifle is already a powerful weapon, so do not need much zoom
-blaster could also be as a small binoculars, not only a weapon of despair : P
-lgun have some good zom to make it more useful for long distances(like md's zoom from 1.1).
-md have a lot of zoom(like GGP), duh, its a sniper
-rifle, to support other players.
shotgun, flamer and psaw, obviously, do not need zoombecause they are short-range weapons.
and lucis, this gun is already very powerful(and its a short/medium range weapon, more useful as a support weapon(gpp)),.
Also, isn't tremulous the sort of game where you actually don't need all these sights? I mean, when i use MD, when other MD pros use MD, they almost/hardly ever use the zoom in combat. It's not like you're going to scope-shoot cheat. There's no point.
nobody is forced to use zoom, if you think you need, use it. : )
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gtfo
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Another case of wolfbr having ideas and not backing them up with anything other than "they are my ideas" or "if you don't like it don't use it".
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Another case of Plague Bringer making a very astute observation that nobody could have seen themselves. Tyvm Plague Bringer what would the Tremulous community do without you.
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Another case of Plague Bringer making a very astute observation that nobody could have seen themselves. Tyvm Plague Bringer what would the Tremulous community do without you.
I see I've made a new enemy.
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Or just found a troll, as the case may be.
hi vape bro.
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hi vape bro.
I would have guessed Iabz.
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vape created an entire new level of troll.
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hi vape bro.
I would have guessed Iabz.
You're overestimating his interest in those forums.
vape created an entire new level of troll.
lol
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vape created an entire new level of troll.
or would have if he had been doing this.... i dont know, ten, fifteen years ago. this shit is so common it's boring.
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Reading some of his "troll" posts and the topics he posted in they got really off-topic because you decided to feed the "troll", so I don't really think you should be saying that the "shit" is boring if he got a reaction out of you.
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Reading some of his "troll" posts and the topics he posted in they got really off-topic
In all seriousness, you're right. So let's get this thread back on topic. Let's talk about...
...
What the hell were we talking about before?
Fuck it, let's just go back to feeding the trolls.
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Reading some of his "troll" posts and the topics he posted in they got really off-topic
In all seriousness, you're right. So let's get this thread back on topic. Let's talk about...
...
What the hell were we talking about before?
Fuck it, let's just go back to feeding the trolls.
Why are you quoting an unfinished sentence that has nothing to do with you?
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@DannyCutts: Not sure if troll...
(http://daisekkou.com/NotSureIfTroll.png)?