If I understood correctly, Thierry Meyssan is saying that the west is puppeteering and misreporting the events of the Arab Spring and predicting pretty much every evil will be taken to it's extreme. He doesn't sound like a credible expert who weighs the facts and makes fair judgements. He sounds like he's going for 'The Big Lie' angle (which as it happens was the name of his book on the events of 9/11).
Also, when this interviewer says "What you are saying is terrible, is shocking! So do you think the truth, this truth, could ever be established, could ever be recognised?" about some claims a guy just asserted, alarm bells should be going off in your head as to the extreme bias of this news report.
Yes, there is a long credible history of, for instance, America employing covert operations in order to overthrow regimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions). As I understand it, this has always been a case of helping people who were already in these nations already opposing these regimes. In some cases, it would be a small group of people who would be aided in a Coup d'état. In other cases it would be large portions of the population already engaged in civil war. So the puppeteering is something much more realistic than the crack-pot theories would prefer.
These people already want regime change and the US (for example) picks it's friends by who their enemies are. We're NOT talking here about huge numbers of population being brainwashed to hate thier government. We're talking about "You don't like that guy and neither do we. So we'll help you out and you can have all the glory!".
I don't mind people questioning the morality of what is likely happening. I get annoyed by people who make outrageous assumptions.
Note that I said the interview was biased, not you. If you want to call me biased then that's your conclusion and you can go into greater detail on how exactly I'm controlled by a media that I distrust a lot of the time too. Perhaps you think I follow the American fox news or that I base my views on some crummy British tabloid like The Sun or the Daily Mail. In actuality, I greet every news report with skepticism and I use the best of my ability to discern what is relevant and what is likely true. This doesn't require delving into the life history of some man and it's especially easy to spot the overly dramatic sensationalism (doesn't mean what's said is false, just that the truth is more boring). You seem to think I'm biased because I occasionally agree with what the consensus view is, and I would say you're foolish if you always flatly deny what the mainstream media reports.
Everything you said about morals is blatently ignoring what I said: "I don't mind people questioning the morality of what is likely happening". I do not think that "United-States are the Superman of this world" by far. I don't know what would make you think I thought that.
Thierry Meyssan is not taking risks. The only thing his expressing extreme views will do is sell more books to people who share those extreme views.
he is his own sourcewhen i say the source, i am referring to something like official documentation, or perhaps a peer-reviewed academia publication, depending on the subject matter.
Yes, there is a long credible history of, for instance, America employing covert operations in order to overthrow regimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions). As I understand it, this has always been a case of helping people who were already in these nations already opposing these regimes. In some cases, it would be a small group of people who would be aided in a Coup d'état. In other cases it would be large portions of the population already engaged in civil war. So the puppeteering is something much more realistic than the crack-pot theories would prefer.One barrel of ammonal will solve your problems
These people already want regime change and the US (for example) picks it's friends by who their enemies are. We're NOT talking here about huge numbers of population being brainwashed to hate thier government. We're talking about "You don't like that guy and neither do we. So we'll help you out and you can have all the glory!".
I don't mind people questioning the morality of what is likely happening. I get annoyed by people who make outrageous assumptions.
I have to admit, I do place a lot of trust in the what the bbc reports.
Why would you think this was on purpose?
Plus, the NTC's chief said himself it was just a strategy of the medias to confuse those who follow Kadhafi*.
Yes, that clearly is a mistake.
Lulz. Yes, that clearly is a mistake. A mistake mind you, not a deception. Clearly, a breakdown in communication has caused footage which was actually on the Delhi Protests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14540430) has been mistaken for footage of Tripoli.
Why would you think this was on purpose? Surely, if they're going to lie there are better ways to do it than showing footage of clearly the wrong flag. If they knew where the footage actually came from they would know the flag would give them away.
I imagine they reported that at a time when they had loads of time for fact checking and there was nothing troubling and fast moving going on in the world.Lulz. Yes, that clearly is a mistake. A mistake mind you, not a deception. Clearly, a breakdown in communication has caused footage which was actually on the Delhi Protests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14540430) has been mistaken for footage of Tripoli.
Why would you think this was on purpose? Surely, if they're going to lie there are better ways to do it than showing footage of clearly the wrong flag. If they knew where the footage actually came from they would know the flag would give them away.
then again, BBC reported building 10 i think it was of the world trade center falling when it was clearly visible in the background.
to top it off, at least half of americans polled could not find iraq on a map. i dont imagine the UK would be much better off.It's the one labelled Iraq, though tbh, with british literacy rates what they are, that may not help much.
sure it could be a mistake, but this is a major news outlet. they get paid lots of money to not make mistakes, and if something like that made it past QC without correction within the next five minutes or so (for a broadcast, next printing for a periodical) leads me to believe that someone in upper management wanted just such a mistake.You do realise that this is bloody BBC Breakfast news, it comes as absolutely no surprise to me that such a cock-up would occur there, not exactly serious business(as make obvious by Bill Turnbull's presence on the news sofa(sofa's are fast replacing newsdesks as seating places for serious news, i hear)).
i take international news with a grain of salt. unlike domestic news, it has to pass through two layers of propaganda.I take it FOX news is trustworthy domestic news? Why do you trust US news agencies when you're convinced that they're controlled by the government(in the past the government's been controlled by newscorp here, rather than the other way around) and that both parties are lying to you, wouldn't foreign news seem potentially more trustworthy in those circumstances?
the man reading the card with his lines on them had but look behind him to see he was giving a false report. he had the standard issue "newsman's earpiece", a producer could have quickly corrected him. this was the third and final building to fall that day.I imagine they reported that at a time when they had loads of time for fact checking and there was nothing troubling and fast moving going on in the world.Lulz. Yes, that clearly is a mistake. A mistake mind you, not a deception. Clearly, a breakdown in communication has caused footage which was actually on the Delhi Protests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14540430) has been mistaken for footage of Tripoli.
Why would you think this was on purpose? Surely, if they're going to lie there are better ways to do it than showing footage of clearly the wrong flag. If they knew where the footage actually came from they would know the flag would give them away.
then again, BBC reported building 10 i think it was of the world trade center falling when it was clearly visible in the background.to top it off, at least half of americans polled could not find iraq on a map. i dont imagine the UK would be much better off.It's the one labelled Iraq, though tbh, with british literacy rates what they are, that may not help much.sure it could be a mistake, but this is a major news outlet. they get paid lots of money to not make mistakes, and if something like that made it past QC without correction within the next five minutes or so (for a broadcast, next printing for a periodical) leads me to believe that someone in upper management wanted just such a mistake.You do realise that this is bloody BBC Breakfast news, it comes as absolutely no surprise to me that such a cock-up would occur there, not exactly serious business(as make obvious by Bill Turnbull's presence on the news sofa(sofa's are fast replacing newsdesks as seating places for serious news, i hear)).i take international news with a grain of salt. unlike domestic news, it has to pass through two layers of propaganda.I take it FOX news is trustworthy domestic news? Why do you trust US news agencies when you're convinced that they're controlled by the government(in the past the government's been controlled by newscorp here, rather than the other way around) and that both parties are lying to you, wouldn't foreign news seem potentially more trustworthy in those circumstances?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfNYFlbr3_4
It's "Libya".your assessment is wrong nux. i've seen my fair share of bbc news broadcasts. in particular, the asian bbc department and AFN (the armed forces network, a militarily run "channel") were my only links to the outside world for a couple of years.
I don't think you've actually watched much news from the BBC. I think you've based your opinions of it off a couple of mistakes that were weeded out by someone trying to validate thier point of view. Don't get me wrong, the BBC makes mistakes and deals a fair bit of sensationalism in some annoying ways (particularly the journalists in charge of the BBC News website). I just think it's rather silly that you think they're giving out these big lies to aid our government when they always leap at the nearest chance to defame it, or even itself.
If I'm shooting myself in the foot by doing this and playing into their highly subtle plot, then I'm happy for them to continue plotting so subtley because until they plot any harder, no sane person should notice the difference.Quite.
i'm not wearing a suit on tv, i am only your peer, i cannot have anything of import to say.
Do feel free to explain why it makes more sense for the 911 report(i assumed, incorrectly, that you felt there was a conspiracy at work here) and Tripoli/Delhi footage mix-up incident to be deliberate misinformation than simple mistakes, i'm perfectly willing to listen when reasonable evidence is put forward, just don't expect leaps of faith.
dont you see? the bbc leaping to defraud[defame] the government is a form of propaganda. just like a human body, a political body sometimes develops cancerous growths that attack the body. when some big scandal rears about, everyone is quick to lay the blame on the doorstep of traditional enemies and pet crusades. think about how often some official or another leaks information as a source who "must remain anonymous because they are not authorized to speak on the matter", or something similar?
*snip*On a more serious note, really? I've watched RT a fair bit and immediately assumed you were back in your capacity as resident troll, yes it's interesting, but honest? If any news network can be accused of peddling government propaganda it's RT.
On a more serious note, I suggest anyone who wants interesting and honest news to watch RT (Russia Today). They actually say what's happening in the world (Libya, US economic, etc..).
*snip*On a more serious note, really? I've watched RT a fair bit and immediately assumed you were back in your capacity as resident troll, yes it's interesting, but honest? If any news network can be accused of peddling government propaganda it's RT.
On a more serious note, I suggest anyone who wants interesting and honest news to watch RT (Russia Today). They actually say what's happening in the world (Libya, US economic, etc..).
RT are currently suggesting that young boys in libya have suddenly become fascinated with toy guns(because everyone knows that children don't like toy guns unless exposed to armed uprisings), which is almost certainly NATO's fault, there's footage of kids playing with toy guns and everything, what's more, NATO aren't pulling out immediately, evil NATO, think of the children!
On a more serious note, I suggest anyone who wants interesting and honest news to watch RT (Russia Today). They actually say what's happening in the world (Libya, US economic, etc..). A lot of their videos can be found on youtube.
I'm not saying I give value to everything in RT, I'm saying they actually give a good portrait of what's happening.
sure it could be a mistake, but this is a major news outlet. they get paid lots of money to not make mistakes, and if something like that made it past QC without correction within the next five minutes or so (for a broadcast, next printing for a periodical) leads me to believe that someone in upper management wanted just such a mistake.
I hope you didn't JUST learn that.
RT is no more unbiased than any other source.
What it lacks in western bias it makes up in Russian bias. The name itself says it all, Russian Times, you know as in Russian. If you think that is honest and accurate you are being naive.
Russia is a cesspool of corruption. You might not be able to smell it from way over there on the other side of the pond. What money will buy in the west, money and brute force will buy in the east.At this point you have lost all credibility on the field, but I'll still answer you just for the kick of it. First of all, I'm happy to see you took your course of Russia's society and politics in Rocky. This silly idea that in the United-States, country of the nobles, the only form of corruption is money, while in Russia, necessarily, corruption HAS to be worse! It is money and brute force, them barbarians! No, really, simply saying that RT is more corrupted and more manipulated right now than most western medias is stupid. As I said, RT are giving the opportunity to people who have alarmed many people of what was going on, they have kept a certain integrity with reality, that is the least I can give them, and they probably deserve more.[/quote]
The last 5 stories on RT include something about German Nazis, a Russian parade showing off how awesome they are and video about Russia not approving of the West taking all the Arab oil. ::)
I hope you didn't JUST learn that.
no, i usually just keep it under my hat, though. sometimes it does get irritating that i seemingly am dismissed because i am not a talking head on a news-opinion show. i try to be a bit more rational and skeptical compared to the majority of people i come into contact with who hold the same opinions on world events that i do. i find that you'll never change anyone's mind if you browbeat them about how ignorant they are, or destroy all of their worldview all at once. much like an international banker, i find it better to work incrementally at changing the opinions of those around me.
also, about alex jones: look up his connections to zionists. recently i've discovered a lot about AJ, he's a knight of malta, apparently. and owned by ABC. gerald celente seems to be an allright guy, but then again, he's also a bit too eager to profit from the whole situation.
then again, AJ does bring up some good news to "public" attention, you've just got to learn how to filter out all of his opinion he spins onto the stories. on the other hand, you can say that about most news outlet, save the ones that specialize in "entertainment news" like which celebrity ate what for which meal. there's almost always a kernel of truth buried amid all that opinion and spin, and usually hidden in legalese or politically correct language.
while RT is giving the opportunity to people who aren't given the right to talkYou are obviously an idiot because everyone has the right to speak in our free society*. Just like everyone else has the right to tune out from the shit they are shoveling.
in the medias of our free society.
Nux, how many times did I tell you that even the NTC leader admitted it was purely made for propaganda? You might aswell continue to enjoy every bits of BBC's reports you can get.Ok, before i give up on the discussion completely, how is any of this related to proof that the BBC's misrepresentation of crowds milling around waving indian flags as footage of the libyan people in tripoli was intentional propaganda rather than a stupid mistake? Can you provide any of these reports from RT's english language service at the very least?
This is Seif al Islam talking : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRCP2UcmSRs
that's just one video out of other videos that show the same thing, and this guy is the son of Gadaffi. There were also some videos of the NTC leader who also said it was just propaganda.
Russia
honesty
The events of the ''Arab world''Those just don't go together. ::)
This is Seif al Islam talking : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRCP2UcmSRs
Breaking News: A spokesperson for a collapsing government spreads FUD.
It's funny how it was me that you allied with in that previous thread because I was the only one willing to talk to you on a level footing about your claims and give you the benefit of the doubt where I could. Why is it that as soon as someone agrees with you you're their best friend, and soon as they disagree they're a blind fool?
And why are you not trying to convince anyone? Surely, that's the only worthwhile reason you could have for posting here. Even if you don't manage to convince anyone, just trying is enough to organise the facts in your own head better.
I never outright dismissed your claims. I've given alternate explanations to anything that wasn't pure speculation.
Also, don't be so quick to assume people in power will abuse it. Being deceitful is a winning strategy up to the point you get caught by those you are fooling, whereas if you are in a position to be honest and you adhere to the truth there's no such risk, plus reality can only prove you right. I'm not saying people don't still take the risk. For example a collapsing government might lie through it's teeth because it no longer has anything to lose and eveything to gain from it. I'm just saying that honesty is a good strategy too and I have no reason to believe that the BBC doesn't generally follow such an honest philosophy.
Another problem here is that I can ramble about this and pretty much anything for ages but there always comes a point in discussion where I get tired and emotionally detached and I'm trying to keep myself from boring you with that. I think I'll take some time off from this thread again to liven my enthusiasm for it, or else abandon it altogether.
i trust RT as i would any international news source. i figure that i have to compensate for what the host government and my own want me to think. from what i've seen of their english language programming, it seems quite a bit like al jezera. they DO bring up the reports that the "western world" would rather not have in the headlines, but they have their own reasons behind doing so. i doubt my well being or how informed i am about international events is high on that list, if there at all.
RAK, i realise you must have reasons to believe the things that you do, i'm not going to try and stop you, but do recognise that Garion may not be entirely sincere, it's possible that he's using you as nothing more than a trolling aid, how do you, personally, feel about the trustworthiness of RT and the russian government, i'm curious.
Sorry, what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRCP2UcmSRs#t=4m16s
if you begin thinking yourself somehow above your fellow man, you just become more like the oligarchs you despise. your knowledge does not set you apart or above.
And, to be honest, most of you are fools, and if you can't understand a simple element such as war in Libya, it's obvious that you won't understand the reason truly explain this war, because war in Libya is just a part of a much bigger scheme. Plus, in every posts I made, I had a lot of people who didn't understand even the simple ideas I developed, and sometimes it is because they lack the knowledge of conventional logic. So, am I really going to waste all my time and efforts writing to people who are turned against me, who call me a troll and an idiot? No. Obviously not. I'll say it again, if I am speaking here, it is because I want to talk about the subject, and that if it can help some people from the community of a game I like, why not.
if you begin thinking yourself somehow above your fellow man, you just become more like the oligarchs you despise. your knowledge does not set you apart or above.
you might also find it easier to hold a conversation about a topic you have interest in, if you were to stop assuming you are the only party present with the capability to tie his own shoes. basically, no one likes a snotty, superior attitude. this may be the reason so many assume you to be a troll.
i know that you've seen that i have been able to discuss the subject with both you, who agree with me, and nux and tremulant, who do not. i think this to be partially from the fact that i have not degraded them in any way, and i have kept my "tone" somewhat level and neutral... as well as can be conveyed through text i suppose. i also am not out to get anyone to change their lives or change their minds. if they disagree with my opinion on the matter, it does not offend me. my opinion is like a possession, not a friend. furthermore, my dislike of someone else's opinion does not often color my opinion of the person who holds it.
oh, and dont think i was calling you a snob or anything in the first part of the post. i understand that you are french, and i believe i can adapt to your cultural peculiarities. you've seemd no more or no less a snob as any other frenchman i've ever met... at least to my own somewhat earthly american sense of propriety.
hey! i'm joking! why are you staring at me like that?
i trust RT as i would any international news source. i figure that i have to compensate for what the host government and my own want me to think. from what i've seen of their english language programming, it seems quite a bit like al jezera. they DO bring up the reports that the "western world" would rather not have in the headlines, but they have their own reasons behind doing so. i doubt my well being or how informed i am about international events is high on that list, if there at all.
as for russia itself... it is common knowledge the mafia went to university then took over after the USSR fell apart. i have personally known former citizens of a few former soviet republics. the secondhand info i have received from these people lead me to believe that the whole of the former ussr is a cesspool of corruption that any sane human would want to escape at all costs. then again, all of my contacts have been those who have successfully escaped. at least part of the way. one of my current "close" inline friends lives in one of those former soviet republics, and he wont stop telling me about how much he hates russians and everything about them.
i'm not sure garion is "trolling" per say. he is enthusiastic, and lets his emotions overrule his mind sometimes, but this isnt really a bad thing. its no great thing, countless allegories have been written about men who approach the world from a logical viewpoint as opposed to those who ride the storm tide of their own emotions. garion and i agree on certain key factors in politics and world events. whenever i see this, i always like to try to start up or join a conversation with this person. it's rare i get to talk with others that generally share my views, as i dont make a habit of going anywhere people gather, online of off, to discuss such things.
i have a whole other post for garrion.
For exemple, Tremulant and his silly clan mate called me a troll for giving them sources they did not find credible, obviously for stupid reasons, as they just barked at me.As you are a known troll in other fields, it's hard for me to take you completely seriously, and when you come out with such gems as suggesting that RT, a russian government funded organisation that is clearly a dedicated propaganda machine, is the most well rounded news source i can turn to, it just makes me wonder...
Russia Today is a much more honest media than manyLay off the pot, there's a good chap. ::)
Russia Today is a much more honest media than manyLay off the pot, there's a good chap. ::)