Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: kozak6 on August 09, 2006, 10:46:15 am
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*sigh*
Just lost a game for a really stupid reason.
The map was Niveus. I successfully moved the base to the upstairs box room as an alien.
It was S2 bugs vs s3 aliens.
My defenses were working out rather well, and I was able to rebuild them or watch them repair as dretches and basilisks courageously fought off the occasional bsuits.
The attack began to quicken. More and more humans arrived. No fear, my defenses were holding out, and I was rebuilding as grenades lobbed through the doorway.
Then, it happened.
C4PO, or some such name like that, started to build extra eggs with the points I was using for defenses.
I managed to decon the extraneous eggs, yelled at him, and get the defenses back up.
The defenses were disabled again, and a bsuit entered and took out more defenses and maybe an egg or two He was quickly slain by myself as a granger, and a swarm of dretches. I go to rebuild the defenses and......
C4PO has taken the opportunity to climb up onto the rafters, and build another egg, a booster, and a barricade or two.
On the rafters.
On the goddamn rafters.
From there, bsuits and other humans congregated on our base, and things took a turn for the worse.
And worse.
And worse.
From there, it was an egg hunt until they finally got me.
So, then, in conclusion...
Eat shit and die, C4PO :evil: :evil: :evil:
:granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger:
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Sounds frustrating. Very frustrating. Infuriating, even.
I wonder how badly it would work to have a line in a file somewhere which contains a count of how long the user has played, this number being used to (dis)allow certian things, such as becoming a builder. It should be only a minor inconvenience to experienced players, who could just edit the file (I assume they would either just know of it, or know how to find out what is needed).
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Let's make it so that people who leave the tutorial mode on cannot buy construction kits or select granger :D
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Let's make it so that people who leave the tutorial mode on cannot buy construction kits or select granger :D
if it doesnt apear as an option thay wont know what thay are missing, not until thay RTFM
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Let's make it so that people who leave the tutorial mode on cannot buy construction kits or select granger :D
if it doesnt apear as an option thay wont know what thay are missing, not until thay RTFM
Changing weapons doesn't appear as an option either, it doesn't prevent people from asking how the hell we got better weapons than the rifle.
Besides, people who don't understand what is the construction kit nor how to get it are probably better stuck with a rifle ;)
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Granger is the only thing that humans aren't scared to run after, give him a dretch as bodyguard and he's invincible.
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Granger is the only thing that humans aren't scared to run after, give him a dretch as bodyguard and he's invincible.
don't be so sure of that, there is at least one human that knows to avoid my adv. granger unless he has a bsuit.
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You've just described every third or fourth game I play. Decon/retarded building happens. All we can do is yell and try to vainly kick the guy and watch him rejoin. Temporary voteban, anyone?
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play on a server with admins.
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play on a server with admins.
Look at my sig!!! And yes, you can click on it.
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You remember on sst when i was trying to build that one good base on arachnid, and all the fags kept building minibases everywhere.
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You remember on sst when i was trying to build that one good base on arachnid, and all the fags kept building minibases everywhere.
Remember? I can also vividly visualize that same situation at this moment. And when I join SST now, I will most likely end up in such a situation.
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I'm sure most of us have had good games ruined by deconners and crappy builders. I agree with the 'temporary voteban' idea. Ban the hordes of the un-named and deconners!
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play on a server with admins.
Look at my sig!!! And yes, you can click on it.
Faces of Tremulous?
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The worst game I was in was when the guy deconned our reactor then told the aliens to come attack us cause he had deconned us. Everytime we tried to build it up again he just ran over and deconned it again. VERY frustrating. Man I wish I had perm ban powers then!
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I was once a human builder and an "Unnamed Player" joined the game. He decided to build for humans, but of course, he was really bad at it. Doing things liek belvivng Teslas are the best defense ever, and he was constantly building a repeater down the hall in Nivius, and spreading out a turret or two. Good for keeping back dretches, but anything higher its completley useless. The server doesnt have alot of build points, so he kept deconing our base defense around vital structures so he could sparsly spread out random turrets that completely didnt work at all.
I kept rebuilding though. He was one of those "stubborn" types that constnantly builds even after i keep reprimanding and kicking him and doesnt know how to communicate to the team.
We literally votekicked him like 5-7 times, but he kept joining and trying to rebuild and already good base into a bad one. Once every now and he would just become a rifleman, but he never took the hint. We eventually lost the match because of the turret defense he kept butchering.
Moral of the story: DO NOT BUILD unless you have experience in playing the game, and understand good positions for buildings, and know the advantages and disadvantages of all buildings and building placements!
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Moral of the story: DO NOT BUILD unless you have experience in playing the game, and understand good positions for buildings, and know the advantages and disadvantages of all buildings and building placements!
uh, no noobs look here. your wasting your time.
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Looks more like a griefer than a noob builder you know.
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play on a server with admins.
Look at my sig!!! And yes, you can click on it.
Faces of Tremulous?
Above that.
!SATGNU! is clixable.
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Moral of the story: DO NOT BUILD unless you have experience in playing the game, and understand good positions for buildings, and know the advantages and disadvantages of all buildings and building placements!
Also, while you're at it, DO NOT PLAY THE GAME until you have experience and know how to use every class and not feed the other team. YOU MUST spectate until you gain this knowledge. Heck, DO NOT RUN THIS GAME until you've read in-depth strategies for every class, building, strategy, and map.[/b]
Also, how the heck do you pronounce SATGNU? Sat-g'noo? S.A.T.G.N.U.?
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I agree.
I consider myself a middling fighter (I suck at anything that isn't a lasgun or an adv. 'rauder) but a pro base builder. I pride myself on that actually (noob that I am :P)
WHICH IS WHY I GET VERY FUCKING IRRITATED WHEN RANDOM PEOPLE JUST CON OR DECON WITHOUT EVEN SAYING A WORD.
Anyone who's seen me play knows I always ask a quick "Can I move XYZ" or "Booster/Def Comp going up" etc when I'm playing. I KNOW WTF I'm DOING.
Which is why I absolutely hate bozo's who DON'T and think they do come in and try to run rough shod over me.
Death usually results, and then the guy tries to blame me going "He didn't want me to build my base the way I did" when er... dude, you were th eone who joined the game later.
I've also has the MOST ANNOYING GAME EVER on one of those FF-enabled servers where some fucking UnnamedPlayer actually RIFLED me to death...
While I was moving the reactor.
*head desks*
I cried. Totally. =\
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Maybe he was trying to help, after all, respawning at a telenode will reset the delay counter of deconstructing the reactor :D
Then again, he was probably a griefer or a complete noob.
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How about when you have been playing a few games and everybody leaves you to be the builder (which is good). I was playing, building, our base was awesome. We had a few maps like that where everything flowed. Then the noob bus rolled into town. You can tell cause all of a sudden we had like 5 builders and people were pulling all the turrets away from the base. I like the neaten up a base and make it tight - You know deocn a tele so you can build it in closer - and somebody had sucked away the BP to build yet another turret like a football field away from the reactor. SO annoting. You have to yell "NOBODY BUILD ANYTHING WHILE I MOVE THE TELENODE". And you know it is just not sinking in....... anyways a LOT of frustration when building, but it can be VERY reqrding when you are playing with the right people (which seems to be rare lol).
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You cant (and shouldnt) forbid noobs from playing just because they suck, guess what? You did too once, remember? I'd rather lose a game helping teach people how to play than be a total ass who tells everybody to let me do everything. Yes, i can build, kill, and generally play better than most players, but that doesnt give me or anybody else the right to ruin the experience for others.
I'm not saying you should ever let somebody win (haha, i cant :wink: ) and there are times when i have trouble following my own "dont be a dick" rule. There are definitely games where its necessary to take charge and direct a team of less experienced players, and its incredibly frustrating if they dont listen to you. At the same time however, you shouldnt kick them for it. Unless somebody is purposefully losing the game for you, deal with it. It happens.
Don't hate the noobs for being noobs, help them learn to be decent players. If they absolutley dont listen to anybody feel free to kick them, but remember we all sucked once.
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Zel: The problem is for most noobs they really don't care to get better. They want to fart around, try something 'cool' (which has been tried a dozen times already and failed every single time), and generally ignore anyone that seems to be a recognized face in the community.
Noobs are noobs because they're also mentally retarded.
Newbies are alright, at least they're willing to learn and take guidance.
The former however should all uninstall trem now, stop waiting a week to do such.
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but it can be VERY reqrding when you are playing with the right people (which seems to be rare lol).
Well... Is very rewarding to play with the right people. Granger, builder or riflemen :D
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You cant (and shouldnt) forbid noobs from playing just because they suck
correction (darkrogue somewhat beat me to this, stupid xserver hang): you can't (and shouldn't) forbid newbs from playing just because they suck, but you can (and sometimes should) kick noobs for refusing to learn, because when they refuse to stop building bases that most aliens can singlehandedly shred to pieces, a lot of other people suffer.
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One of my last fights for working base with some retarded noob almost ended after he deconned reactor to prevent me from rebuilding turrets inside our base. After he was votekicked, we barely managed to rebuild reactor, some basic defenses and aliens used that time to move base so we had about a minute to get the base working again. Moral of this story (for aliens):
NEVER EVER move overmind when you can wipe the other team out in a single strike.
I can't count how many times some (even really good) builder gave humans enough time to rebuild their base from scratch just by moving overmind... :roll: Please, builders, would it hurt you if you asked if there's a stalemate? Don't move overmind while your team is in successful offense (you won't get any response from fighters because they have their claws full and can't type) and NEVER EVER move overmind while in defense (also no response from fighters) because you could easily lose the entire game. If you get response that doesn't say otherwise, there's most likely stalemate at human base entrance and you can safely move overmind.
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You cant (and shouldnt) forbid noobs from playing just because they suck, guess what? You did too once, remember? I'd rather lose a game helping teach people how to play than be a total ass who tells everybody to let me do everything. Yes, i can build, kill, and generally play better than most players, but that doesnt give me or anybody else the right to ruin the experience for others.
I'm not saying you should ever let somebody win (haha, i cant :wink: ) and there are times when i have trouble following my own "dont be a dick" rule. There are definitely games where its necessary to take charge and direct a team of less experienced players, and its incredibly frustrating if they dont listen to you. At the same time however, you shouldnt kick them for it. Unless somebody is purposefully losing the game for you, deal with it. It happens.
Don't hate the noobs for being noobs, help them learn to be decent players. If they absolutley dont listen to anybody feel free to kick them, but remember we all sucked once.
All of that is fine and good. BUT - I did get "yelled" at once when I started building in the wrong spot and you know what? It made me STOP doing it and I took the time to see how they were doing it and I asked questions to learn. I still play with new people who dont listen, they build where and when they want (at the expense of the win) and are a general pain in the butt.
Yeah yeah, we were all new once, but c'mon - you just cant change dumb when you are in the middle of a game.... Whichj I think is the original point of this thread - to vent on how frustrating it can be to be a builder ;)
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Just got an idea.
Vote > Team Vote > Designated Builder
The Designated Builder's buildings can't be deconed, and he can bring up a list of all teammates to "assign" them structures to build. (such as, letting MassiveDamage have rights to build 1 egg, or decon 1 egg, etc)
Then, if the builder is being a fag, you either vote to strip the player's DB privileges, or you vote for another DB.
Of course, the power of the DB would have to be fine-tuned, but I think that'd be a simple enough solution to the deconing problem.
(oh, and the first granger/ckit to join the team becomes the DB by default)
(oh, and maybe the DB can hand down his privileges to another player without calling a vote)
Either way, the basic concept of having a designated builder seems good to me. Comments?
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Interesting idea. When would this Designation faff happen though? If you're so unorganised that you need such restrictions, I can imagine time spent designating would be time wasted =/ just a thought
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i like the idea mainly because it sounds like a good way to stop deconners. I dont know if it should be regularly invoked, but maybe it could be an admin command or something.
Great idea Rippy.
Sorry for the noob defence :P , i've got many of the same frustrating stores. But i dont like it when people get elitist about the game.
You're right though, damn retarded players who decon shit without asking, repeatedly charge out to fight aliens without armor or a helmet, luci blast the base (annoying even without FF, i dont like being bounced around or out of my base :evil: ), etc.
If i join a game late, even if the base sucks i ask permission before i move stuff. I think its the polite thing to do, because its somebody elses base build. If it startes getting destroyed i definitley revamp stuff, but it would be nice if people were better about asking before they rearange a base.
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Would that be rough to implement? Sounds good, but then how do we control who can vote?
And I'll make it clear: I LIKE teaching newbies who are willing to learn. I just finished a game with Plague, Basilicious and a few other pros, and there was a helpless newbie who was politely asking how to sell his con kit and get a gun. I spent most of that game msging instead of paying attention to the base (Which is sort of the point of my base, to make it so well I can ignore it for a few minues without it falling apart)
What I DON'T like is those people who don't react when you talk to them, randomly decon (the aforementioned reactor deconner is def. going on my votekick list for sure if I ever see that happen) and just grief thinking it's "fun".
Maybe they don't speak English, but at least a quick "gomen nasai" or "monsiuer" or something to at least indicate my presence or words. Nothing. That's just being either very rude, or very, very n00b. After playing for awhile, I am now inclined to think the latter over the former. What about everyone else?
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yep.
usually if people dont answer at all its because they just dont want too. Sometimes this is because the individual is too busy to type, but if this is not the case than they're ignoring you on purpose. Usually these are the "arrogant" type noobs, the ones who dont know what they're doing, but played counterstrike enough that they think they can figure it all out and dont want you to teach them. Because they're retarded. I'm an easy going guy, but i hate with a passion noobs who think they know wtf they're doing. I just cant stop killing them :roll: .
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i like the idea mainly because it sounds like a good way to stop deconners. I dont know if it should be regularly invoked, but maybe it could be an admin command or something.
If it were an admin command, there'd have to be an admin on. And then he might as well just kick/ban the deconers and rude builders. :P
Good point, I guess noone would START as a designated builder, but it could be voted if need be. That way it can be ignored until there's a problem. Since I like the building system how it is right now, where everyone is trusted, and that should only change when there's a reason for it.
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It would be an interesting solution: some idiot is building and ignoring you, so you call a vote to make yourself the designated builder.
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even an admin cant prevent deconning. When a player decons your base while youre under attack, it doesnt matter if the admin kicks/bans the guy immediatly, the damage has been done.
So yes, the designate builder thing would be useful as an admin command too. :P
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All good... not .)
That would work in clans where everyone (should) know their stuff but there we don't really need that.
So think we have that implemented, where do builder-noobs go to learn?
Now please don't tell me 'on their own servers' as that wouldn't work due to various reasons.
Besides that the voting at the start of each map would/could take too long.
Me, being also quite impatient, I'd hate to being forced first to agree on a builder before I could play.
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I was on the Armmegeddon 2 server. Some prick named ASH moved the reactor out into the middle of the hallway. People start yelling to get defenses out there. Even though I'm not a regular builder I know that a reactor in the middle of a hallway=death. I yell to move it back in I'm ignored. The aliens notice and start stepping up there attacks. Meanwhile ASH is busy moveing evreything outside. I yell again then when all else failed me and a few guys who knew how to play quickly deconned the out side base in record time got the new base up in the old and infedentily better spot. ASH tried to call a votkick o us but lost ad promptly got kicked.
So ya deconners and jerks are punks. The designated builder is a good idea maybe a vote at the begining of the game and both teams have to choose before the game starts.
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Designated builder is a good idea as long as it stays vote/admin command. If some noob gets designated builder status just by spawning first with ckit, it will mean a lot of pain. On the other hand, if some noob gets designated builder status in a vote, the voters will get what they wanted. Loss.
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Just was playing on SST. How frustrating.
I tried to build a defendable base while every experienced player quickly switched to the human team, and my helpful granger buddies decided that it would be best to build what could be described as an egg farm downstairs.
To hell with it. I'm just going to switch to human to as soon as this shit starts to happen next time.
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Cave: Def. not on their own that's for certain, because then they'll think they have the best base, but not consider how it works out under fire.
I PREFER, however, to have them be riflemen sitting on the base (Camping for newbies = allowed inmy book) as they watch me build it, and then if they still wonder why "All the turrets aren't being used to attack" and ask, I'd be delighted to teach them and let them learn by example.
Being baptized by fire is nice and all, but it makes for some very frustrating games lately.
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Played SST again.
My base was doing fine and in great shape, so I decided to evolve and go fight.
Oops.
Random constructions were deconned regardless of their importance in order to build acid tubes on the ceiling.
I managed to relocate what was important, and went to fight some more.
In the meantime, the base was picked apart and stupid random junk was built all over the place.
The trappers I put up were deconned and rebuilt ON THE GODDAMN FLOOR.
We lost.
A few maps before, one particular granger decided to reinforce a random and unimportant hallway with every spare point. Even while the base was under attack. Especially while the base was under attack, even, so then he could suck up the build points from destroyed structures. SD hit, and the hallway was wiped clean.
We lost that one as well.
SST is like crack.
The additional build points are wonderfully addictive, but it just doesn't seem to be worth it if my base is going to be pissed all over by my own damn team.
The courageous humans are amusing, though, picking naked rifle fights with my Adv Goon.
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the vote idea has one problem.
when out base is being raped, if i dont have any cash for big guns (or even if i do) i'll grab a ckit and stop turrits exploding. even more inportant in SD. if you had to vote for builders then the one builder would be overwhlemed by a big 2 prong attack and the base defences would fail somewhere, becouse he was repairing someplace else. also, for moves you need more than one ckit.
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the vote idea has one problem.
when out base is being raped, if i dont have any cash for big guns (or even if i do) i'll grab a ckit and stop turrits exploding. even more inportant in SD. if you had to vote for builders then the one builder would be overwhlemed by a big 2 prong attack and the base defences would fail somewhere, becouse he was repairing someplace else. also, for moves you need more than one ckit.
Vote for builders? You misunderstood the concept. Anyone could grab a ckit and repair anything just like now. However, he could not DECON anything built by designated builder. You could receive and lose the designated builder status by vote or admin command.
Now there's a question - when a designated builder loses his status, should his buildings remain protected or not? And should it be possible to unvote the designated builder status given by admin?
I also think designated builders should be able to protect some buildings (eg. reactor) or cancel protection without having to decon and rebuild.
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Noobs.
I like teaching noobs who are willing to help.
Hey, someone said that already!
So what, it's true!
DARNIT
You ppl just wait. there still are a lot of n00bs and nutcakes joining trem because trem is still fairly new. this meaning that a lot of ppl are finding tremulous and never saw it before. "Hey i wanna give it a try!" they say.
And they log on, having no freaking idea what the game is going to be like.
And so on, and so on, and so on.
I know! I did it once in the very same way!
(Mind you, the very first thing i did when i logged on was change my name from unnamedplayer to Glunnator)
Now, if we wait some time, most ppl on this (large, large) world, will have found and tried tremulous. guess what? 78% less noobs!
Thats all i can say for now.
And the griefers who purposly keep their name "unnamed"?
Thats a whole different story.
THE END (of the world, me, my honour, my clan, my post, etc.)
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So think we have that implemented, where do builder-noobs go to learn?
Well, noone would START as the builder, you'd have to call a vote to choose one, and that would only happen when there's a need (noone's gonna bother working when everyone's building fine).
As for the newbies, I suppose the DB could give teammates his rights (and remove them at will), so that other trusted players can build/decon like he can, exept only he's technically the DB. And of course all players would be able to repair things.
I think having noone become the DB unless there's a vote, and allowing the DB to share his rights, would make it work fine.
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I was thinking, it might work if you had to bind a key to play as a builder.
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I was thinking, it might work if you had to bind a key to play as a builder.
What about /bind <key> <list of all weapons and stuff in trem with sell in front> buy<advconstructkit bind. what is it called?> buy<normal kit.>
This will sell your weapon and automatically buy you the highest const kit available. IF your at an armoury and you are human, of course. :P
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noob with the fastest computer always joins the game first and spawns granger/engineer. Yikes.
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heh alot of SST builders have no clue how tremulous structures work.
Floor trappers...trappers really high on a vertical wall...turrets and teslas crammed together...
If any bad SST builders are paying attention...which I doubt since the majority of such are probably off stuffing crayons up their noses:
1) Trappers have a fifteen degree firing arc, this means unless it's straight down or straight across from where a human passes it's not going to fire/work reliably.
2) Acid tubes are proximity based, this means the closer they are to humans the more effective they are. Building tubes on a high ceiling really doesn't work.
3) Teslas/turrets cannot fire THROUGH each other. If you cram defenses in a 2x2 box only the front two will fire. YEs this has been tested, teslas will NOT fire over turrets or through obstructing teslas. Similarly defenses cannot shoot through you, unless they're already firing at an alien. Also true: You cannot shoot through your defenses. Shooting a luci at a tesla will not see the luci make it to the alien on the other side....
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noob with the fastest computer always joins the game first and spawns granger/engineer. Yikes.
Not true if you know your cvar :)
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Yes true for most people. Many times i join games late because not only does it take 30 sec to a min to load, but many times the map fails to load so i have to reconnect in order to join.
Oh, and I have to say. I am SO GLAD SST doesnt show up on my server browser (for some reason), because apparently its a newb fest. AKKA does though, and somtimes newbs play there.
If i wanna play on a super-build point server, i play TJW. Not only does it have an effective admin and vote system that prevents griefers, and its a reasonably sized server, and has more build points. Everyone wins!
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Either way, the basic concept of having a designated builder seems good to me. Comments?
Sounds okay to me. Can't think of any problems right now. I wonder how hard it would be to have DB status carry over from previous rounds.
Something else we could perhaps do is start putting something in our names to show our level of building ability. Something like "{HB}" at the end if you're okay/good at human building, with "{AB}" being the obvious alien equivalent. Could also have "{MB}" for 'master builder', which would be people who are good on both sides (preferably masterful in skill).
This wouldn't eliminate the problems, but it might alleviate some.
Does anyone want me to stop with my sucky ideas?