Tremulous Forum
Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: Survivor on April 05, 2012, 11:39:30 am
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This is the drama thread. Any drama related to this which happens outside of the boundaries of this thread has the chance of getting locked, smashed, banned or ridiculed. Inside this thread you may go at it.
Although there's been a bit of serious discussion at the start of this wonderful soap opera, it now has devolved to the point of a back-and-forth where the only purpose seems to be to put one's own favored group in a good light and the other group in a corner. This is possibly to garner transfers from the playerbase of Tremulous itself, and prevent people preferring the other 'other' Tremulous.
However, that is not something which needs to happen, and definitely does not need to happen here. If either (the inclusive kind) of the two groups makes a game worth playing then you'll have something to fight with. At the moment it's just two parties going at each other with those inflatable clubs, to try and see who blew theirs up the hardest, or can deflate the other one the most. That's not what this forum is about.
Thus I'll set the rules for discussing these two modifications of the game this forum is actually about:
- Copyright, trademark and other legal issues of these two modifications, but only when they also pertain to Tremulous itself as it stands now: Feedback Forum (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=3.0)
- Alpha and other true test release announcements: Mod Releases (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=9.0)
- Beta-Release/Final release announcements: General Discussion (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=1.0)
- All the other drama: This fucking topic
Both groups are welcome to help and be helped in the forums of the 'Media' and 'Mods' categories, as long as they keep to the set topic for those forums.
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REDACTED
As co-head of the U n v a n q u i s h e d project, I want to clarify some things and give everyone a better picture of where we are now.
I want everyone to know that above all, it is my only wish for Unv to see the continued development of Trem style play in an open way. We aim to use new technologies and assets which enhance the play experience, and to give players, server owners and admins some needed features and tools to take this game to new heights and to bring it to a new generation of gamers and hardcore fans alike.
I want to state that I am against these personal attacks and have tried to discourage them as much as possible. I don't like the negative attention that has been surrounding the project, and would like to see an end to it so that we can get on with things. The actions and statements of some of the individual developers do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of the official development team.
Founded by Player1, the Unv project started as a collaborative effort to bring players within the Tremulous community together to develop the game in new ways in an open, educational and developer friendly environment. The plan was simple; get the right people together, get them excited about making a new game, and let them run wild with it.
I joined the project a couple of months afters its launch for the purpose of learning about open source game design, and had been dreaming up a game which involved three teams, so it was a perfect match.
Unfortunately, life gets in the way, plans and people change, and things don't always turn out as exactly how we like. Player1 had to leave the project and he then charged me with the task of continuing this dream, which I am still dedicated to.
In early 2009 I met Volt through the modding group. This was when we were originally planning a mod for Tremulous, and later started planning a new sci-fi based game built loosely around Trem style play. We had worked together on various projects related to Unv, but eventually Volt had to take an extended leave, but stayed in occasional contact with us.
In late 2010 I started a sister project 'TremHD', which aimed to get a discussion going about producing new assets, to serve as a repo for said 3D models and artwork, and to educate players and artists about asset production. Sadly the project was short lived, because in spring of 2011 all of our various project's web services suddenly died when our hosting provider shut their doors and closed down without notice to their customers. It was also during this time that I had to step away from the project for a while due to some real Life™ stuff.
In summer of 2011 I came back online was glad to see that Volt had ran with RedSky's concept artwork for aliens from the NeoTrem project and had formed the Trem Z project with people related to Trem, Unv, Dretch Storm, and other projects.
Trem Z would be a graphical update to Tremulous with new assets, and new features, and run on Dushan's OpenWolf engine, which was a fork of the ET:Xreal engine - plus improvements from ioq3 and other codebases.
In the fall of 2011, Volt brought Dushan into the project directly, during a time in which many new experimental development ideas were being heavily debated. It is my belief that this was timed poorly, as Dushan didn't receive a proper introduction, and his ideas were then presented prematurely in an inappropriate arena with an inappropriate audience.
Shortly before the originally scheduled release date of Jan 1st 2012, Volt stepped down, and named both myself and Celestial Rage (`Ishq) as heads of the Trem Z project. Volt would continue to work offline on a new HUD and sounds for the game. We moved the planned release date to a more realistic date of Feb 29, 2012.
Development continued, and we voted as a group to rename from Trem Z to Unv (which Volt supported). Namely, the name change was needed because Trem Z was only the 'working title' or 'project name' and was not intended for long term use, and we felt it wasn't appropriate to base the name on 'Tremulous', the same way Tremulous isn't named after Gloom.
Dushan continued working with us for a while but ultimately things got ugly and he left due to inter-personal conflicts with other /developers.
Although he was leaving, it was understood at the time that Dushan would continue to develop OpenWolf to support all q3* based games, and we would stick to developing just what we needed for Unv. The projects would be friendly but have different goals. We decided to re-brand, calling our implementation of the engine Daemon.
In the weeks leading up to our first release, Volt came forward with a list of complaints that he had about the project. The points he raised were largely non-issues when we discussed them - many apparently based on misunderstandings generated by a simple lack of communication caused by him being outside of the development group, or so it seemed at the time.
On leap day, Feb 29, we released U n v a n q u i s h e d Alpha 1. The first release was very rough around the edges, but still received a warm welcome from the players who checked it out.
Days later, accusations were made inside of the development group that Volt was possibly making assets which may have been based on copyrighted material and claiming it as his own work.
With some further prying on my part, it was also revealed to me that Dushan had quietly moved his repository for OpenWolf to a new host, in which Volt helped maintain a separate 'secret' Trem Z branch.
Amidst these accusations, I raised the larger point that the real issue is that there was zero transparency to Volt's work and so there was never an opportunity to review if his work was legitimate or usable for the game.
I also raised the question to HermXIV if he would honor Volt and I's agreement to name me as head of the project and to be a contact with our hosting provider, and also if he was willing to help with the rebrand to Unv. He stated that he had no intention of doing either, to which Volt claimed ignorance about his indifference to both matters.
Instead of dealing with these issues in a mature way, Volt launched personal attacks on others and then banned several developers, including myself, from the Trem Z forums.
Because I had suspected foul play and predicted that there would be some immature behavior, I revealed that I had already been in talks with the hosting provider and secured a new dedicated server, cutting HermXIV out of the picture completely.
So as you can see, it is not the case that Unv forked from Trem Z. As a result of my line of questions to Volt, he banned devs and now Trem Z is the hijacked remnants of the old project. I briefly considered Dushan's offers to make peace, but really his involvement with the project directly is not needed at this time, and ultimately the idea just didn't gel well with the majority of the artists and other devs, who have already rallied together against Volt, and banded together under the new Unv name.
The remaining (minority) of players and devs who currently support Trem Z are free to do whatever they want, and really there should be no hard feelings about this in the future. What happened, happened and it's done.
Who #knows, maybe the play changes that Trem Z want to do might work out great, but I feel that Volt's approach has been very heavy handed (to say the least), and ultimately Trem Z does not really represent the goals of the other devs.
We've since released another Alpha with many bug fixes and continue asset production, and continue to stabilize the project and plan for the long haul. But anyway, it's no secret what we're doing - anyone can get involved.
The question I ask myself now is, 'where do we go from here'? Unv will continue to do monthly releases and I believe it is in the best interest of the game, for whatever we do, to include the community in the process and push ahead forward, together.
TL;DR - Decide for yourself.
REDACTED
It is OK to use copyrighted materials to do prototyping / mockup.
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What actually happened to Player1?
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What actually happened to Player1?
He left Trem and Unv to have more family time and to pursue other endeavors, mainly story writing and listening to awesome doom metal.
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so wait, now unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?
umm.... you know, if i get a lot of former yankees together and make a baseball team, we are not the yankees just because i have all these former members.
especially if we are playing football and not baseball.
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:jetpack:
so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?
umm.... you know, if i get a lot of former yankees together and make a baseball team, we are not the yankees just because i have all these former members.
especially if we are playing football and not baseball.
No, its just that Unvansquished is such a cool name.
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:jetpack:so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?
umm.... you know, if i get a lot of former yankees together and make a baseball team, we are not the yankees just because i have all these former members.
especially if we are playing football and not baseball.
No, its just that Unvansquished is such a cool name.
Not from what I've seen cron say. He seems to suggest what RAKninja mentioned.
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so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?
No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.
However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unvanquished is the direct continuation of the old TremZ project (sans haters).
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so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?
No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.
However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unv is this.
Quote from: CreatureofHell on April 01, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
I have just realised that Player1 is a genius. He started up a brilliant project to revamp Tremulous. This project gave birth to two new projects which are continuing his original goal. One of these projects has even produced something. This is a huge step forward for Tremulous.
Where is Player1 now? Nobody knows. But what I do know is that he doesn't have to deal with any of the drama going on.
No drama! Carefree! Wouldn't you like to be like that?
Fixed that for you.
i was unaware of player1's involvement in the current project. if you were not insinuating direct connection with this little joke, what do i make of it?
please, do not take my words maliciously, but it looks to me like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, as the expression goes. bear in mind, i am a bystander. i have no preference or connection to either tine of the fork.
oh, there was also that other post with a timeline of sorts attributing the history of the current project as starting as the original project, back in the day.
yes, i understand "many are the same people", but you are working on another project with different goals and different tools. usually, this warrants a name change. look how many names the core team behind diablo has been through. or the guys behind the first two tribes games. sure there are also legal maters in those cases as well, but it seems to be a good practice.
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yes, i understand "many are the same people", but you are working on another project with different goals and different tools. usually, this warrants a name change. look how many names the core team behind diablo has been through. or the guys behind the first two tribes games. sure there are also legal maters in those cases as well, but it seems to be a good practice.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 'Unvanquished' what they're calling the game and if the team has a name it's 'The Unvanquished Team'. Also note how in your examples Diablo was still called 'Diablo' and Tribes was still called 'Tribes'. If I'm right, all you've shown is how they're doing what everyone in industry does: Keeping the product name as if it's the same product they spent all that time hyping ages ago. Take a look at Duke Nukem Forever for a great example of that.
I don't think this is an attempt to deceive us though. I think it's more personal to them than that. They just want the banner from their old project to be lifted again instead of consigning it to history as the name of a failed project.
so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?
No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.
However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unv is this.
It sounds like you're saying: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project of the same name" but since that would be exactly contradicting what you said in the first line, I'm pretty sure you mean: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project (TremZ)". Am I wrong?
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I don't even know what the fuck is going. If you want to change the fucking names of Tremz and Unvanquished can you change them to fucking different names. Trying to remember which name is which when they're so fucking similar is unbelievably annoying. It's a fucking cunt move and beyond stupid.
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yes, i understand "many are the same people", but you are working on another project with different goals and different tools. usually, this warrants a name change. look how many names the core team behind diablo has been through. or the guys behind the first two tribes games. sure there are also legal maters in those cases as well, but it seems to be a good practice.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 'Unvanquished' what they're calling the game and if the team has a name it's 'The Unvanquished Team'. Also note how in your examples Diablo was still called 'Diablo' and Tribes was still called 'Tribes'. If I'm right, all you've shown is how they're doing what everyone in industry does: Keeping the product name as if it's the same product they spent all that time hyping ages ago. Take a look at Duke Nukem Forever for a great example of that.
I don't think this is an attempt to deceive us though. I think it's more personal to them than that. They just want the banner from their old project to be lifted again instead of consigning it to history as the name of a failed project.
so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?
No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.
However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unv is this.
It sounds like you're saying: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project of the same name" but since that would be exactly contradicting what you said in the first line, I'm pretty sure you mean: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project (TremZ)". Am I wrong?
i used those examples because those teams are working on projects that the populace tends to call "spiritual successors". for example, you would not know who i meant if i had said "the hellgate team", "the mythos team" or "the torchlight team", but if i say "the diablo team" you know who i mean.
your example with duke nukem is the exact opposite. it is an unrelated team developing an established franchise, rather than an established team working on a "new" IP.
according to the design goals i read in the original unv thread, the things the current unv team are doing were listed.... as what looks like afterthoughts. the crux of the prior team was introducing TF2 bullshit under a race painted in blizzard colors.
on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2. BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.
as for confused grammar, when i say "x is a direct successor to the old project of the same name", "the same name" is intended to relate to the name i provided, the subject of the sentence, x in this case. it just seems redundant to say the way you illustrated, to me.
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on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2. BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.
Actually, that isn't our intent at all. However, I don't think this is the right thread to discuss that in. I could discuss things with you over private messages, or you can make a thread on our forums, if you'd like.
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on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2. BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.
I hope you're not advocating Trem 1.1 gameplay because that was fucking awful. Not that 1.2 solved much in that regard anyway.
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RAKninja-Decepticon, you seem to have misread a great deal of what I said. I never suggested you should tell us the names of these game developers. You were saying "The Unv Team" should change the name of their project because this is standard practice for when the tools and goals change. You then gave examples of games developers who had changed the name of their team but hadn't changed the name of the project at all. So my first point was you had actually given counterexamples to your original point.
I'll also note that sequels don't count as spiritual successors. A spiritual successor is only a successor in spirit.
The 'confused grammar' part of my post was to cron about his post. He had said "Unv is this" in a very ambiguous way which I thought might lead to confusion. As it turns out, things led to confusion anyway.
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on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2. BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.
Actually, that isn't our intent at all. However, I don't think this is the right thread to discuss that in. I could discuss things with you over private messages, or you can make a thread on our forums, if you'd like.
why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
y9u guys may not be intentionaly trying to recreate 1.1, but from the hexa/octapodal side of the house this is what it looks like.
tell me, does your changelog continue the trend of buffing humans while nerfing aliens back to 1.1?RAKninja-Decepticon, you seem to have misread a great deal of what I said. I never suggested you should tell us the names of these game developers. You were saying "The Unv Team" should change the name of their project because this is standard practice for when the tools and goals change. You then gave examples of games developers who had changed the name of their team but hadn't changed the name of the project at all. So my first point was you had actually given counterexamples to your original point.
I'll also note that sequels don't count as spiritual successors. A spiritual successor is only a successor in spirit.
The 'confused grammar' part of my post was to cron about his post. He had said "Unv is this" in a very ambiguous way which I thought might lead to confusion. As it turns out, things led to confusion anyway.
yes, it was confusing. i tend to take responses to quotes as said to the last person quoted.
no, nux, that one team changes both team and project names, but the core gameplay has remained the same all of these years. diablo - blizzard, hellgate/mythos - flagship, torchlight - runic. if you do not track the members of the team, it is easy to come to the assumption that these "new" teams are not related to the old, and are "ripping off" the original.... which they made.
granted, these name changes are due to legal reasons, copyright and trademark and all of that. still, it is a good example because new team members, new tools, new project... it all adds up to a new name.
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
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What does any of this have to do with half life. :laugh:
/me runs
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What is this drama even about? I wasnt here and I would like to know.
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What is this drama even about? I wasnt here and I would like to know.
Less you know, the better.
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y9u guys may not be intentionaly trying to recreate 1.1, but from the hexa/octapodal side of the house this is what it looks like.
tell me, does your changelog continue the trend of buffing humans while nerfing aliens back to 1.1?
There hasn't been any balance changes in alpha2. Balance is fairly good (gameplay isn't). Not sure if alpha3 will have any balance changes (I doubt it).
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I don't foresee any significant changes in Alpha3. I've talked to some skilled players and devmapped with them. They are pleased with the balance. We're just awaiting larger games to make sure the balance is good.
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I don't foresee any significant changes in Alpha3. I've talked to some skilled players and devmapped with them. They are pleased with the balance. We're just awaiting larger games to make sure the balance is good.
The game isn't about skilled players. D:
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But they generally have a good sense of balance.
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But they generally have a good sense of balance.
So do weighing scales. D:
And see-saws.
And gymnasts.
And flamingos.
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How can one access the alpha servers? I'd love to participate
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Sure, you can grab alpha2 right here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/unvanquished/files/ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/unvanquished/files/)
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I got the alpha 3, but nobodys on. Are more people on Alpha 2.5?
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I got the alpha 3, but nobodys on. Are more people on Alpha 2.5?
Think about Tremulous. Sometimes people just aren't on.
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning. no better place, kharnov.
now tell me why i should participate and help supply gamedata for larger games, so you guys can know how to balance.
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.
WRONG. it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.
WRONG. it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
WRONG. by the very nature of the forum and the users that use it, discussion of either project has a chance to degrade to pure flaming, directly proportional to the length of time such a thread remains active.
so, in the interest of brevity, i simply propose we skip passed the interim steps and pretty much advance to the flaming/drama. which should be posted in this thread.
edit: replaced misplaced AND with furthermore.
edit2: deleted furthermore. need to pay more attention to sentence structure.
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.
WRONG. it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
I could always change the forum rules.
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.
WRONG. it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
WRONG.
WRONG. see the original post:
I'll set the rules for discussing these two modifications of the game this forum is actually about:
- Copyright, trademark and other legal issues of these two modifications, but only when they also pertain to Tremulous itself as it stands now: Feedback Forum (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=3.0)
- Alpha and other true test release announcements: Mod Releases (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=9.0)
- Beta-Release/Final release announcements: General Discussion (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=1.0)
- All the other drama: This fucking topic
Both groups are welcome to help and be helped in the forums of the 'Media' and 'Mods' categories, as long as they keep to the set topic for those forums.
by the very nature of the forum and the users that use it, discussion of either project has a chance to degrade to pure flaming
which is irrelevant to the fact that
it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
directly proportional to the length of time
by "directly", i hope you don't mean "linearly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_distribution_%28continuous%29)" (because that would be WRONG).
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.
WRONG. it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
WRONG.
WRONG. see the original post:
I'll set the rules for discussing these two modifications of the game this forum is actually about:
- Copyright, trademark and other legal issues of these two modifications, but only when they also pertain to Tremulous itself as it stands now: Feedback Forum (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=3.0)
- Alpha and other true test release announcements: Mod Releases (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=9.0)
- Beta-Release/Final release announcements: General Discussion (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=1.0)
- All the other drama: This fucking topic
Both groups are welcome to help and be helped in the forums of the 'Media' and 'Mods' categories, as long as they keep to the set topic for those forums.
by the very nature of the forum and the users that use it, discussion of either project has a chance to degrade to pure flaming
which is irrelevant to the fact that
it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
directly proportional to the length of time
by "directly", i hope you don't mean "linearly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_distribution_%28continuous%29)" (because that would be WRONG).
WRONG
I could always change the forum rules.
by direct, i do not mean linearly, but i mean DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(mathematics)#Direct_proportionality) as i had said in the first place.
and yes, its like a more generalized statement of goodwin's law. the longer any subject of discussion is active in any online forum, the higher the chance that it will degrade to flaming and drama.
again, my suggestion is to skip past the interim steps and proceed directly to the inevitable outcome. save us all some time.
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That is linearly. DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL = linearly. Not that it matters much (except to DevHC of course).
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why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.
WRONG. it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
WRONG.
WRONG. see the original post:
I'll set the rules for discussing these two modifications of the game this forum is actually about:
- Copyright, trademark and other legal issues of these two modifications, but only when they also pertain to Tremulous itself as it stands now: Feedback Forum (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=3.0)
- Alpha and other true test release announcements: Mod Releases (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=9.0)
- Beta-Release/Final release announcements: General Discussion (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=1.0)
- All the other drama: This fucking topic
Both groups are welcome to help and be helped in the forums of the 'Media' and 'Mods' categories, as long as they keep to the set topic for those forums.
by the very nature of the forum and the users that use it, discussion of either project has a chance to degrade to pure flaming
which is irrelevant to the fact that
it is explicitly allowed to discuss TremZ/Unvanquished (modulo pure flaming) in the Mods forum section.
directly proportional to the length of time
by "directly", i hope you don't mean "linearly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_distribution_%28continuous%29)" (because that would be WRONG).
WRONG
by direct, i do not mean linearly, but i mean DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(mathematics)#Direct_proportionality) as i had said in the first place.
WRONG
DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(mathematics)#Direct_proportionality) is aka linearly proportional, ie., WRONG.
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Why is it wrong to say that a topic degrades into flaming directly/linearly proportional to the length of time the thread exists?
Let us assume you (/dev/humancontroller) convince us that Rak is "WRONG." What does it matter? It's clear what Rak meant. Focus on his other comments instead of something so trivial and you might accomplish something more than the honor of having OCPD. Being detail obsessive is good for programming but many times leads to poor human interaction. But this assumes you want to do anything more than be RIGHT.
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Why is it wrong to say that a topic degrades into flaming
[with a chance that is]
directly/linearly proportional to the length of time the thread exists?
because then, the "chance" will S00N(TM) exceed 1.
Let us assume you (/dev/humancontroller) convince us that Rak is "WRONG." What does it matter? It's clear what Rak meant. Focus on his other comments instead of something so trivial and you might accomplish something more than the honor of having OCPD. Being detail obsessive is good for programming but many times leads to poor human interaction. But this assumes you want to do anything more than be RIGHT.
i have nothing to say about his other comments. there's 1 comment of his:
why not discuss it here? i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.
Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.
for which i'm adding that discussion of balance-or-whatever is not only limited to this thread, but is also permitted in other (new) threads in the Mods section. thus, i am pointing out an opportunity for RAK; if he takes it, that will not only address kharnov's concerns, but also give RAK more justified reasons to do what he wants: not join the unvanquished.net forums.
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If an object travels at a constant speed, then the distance traveled is proportional to the time spent traveling, with the speed being the constant of proportionality.
in other words, if a constant rate of posts are posted, the likelyhood of it degrading to pure flames and drama is proportional to the total number of posts. with the post rate being the constant of proportionality.
dev/HC, let us not be petty. the chance can approach 1, but can never reach it. for our purposes, chance is analogous to the speed of light. you can approach it to an infinitesimally small fraction, but you can never reach or pass it. think of this little equation as something similar to the omega constant.
furthermore, there is nothing untoward in kharnov mollifying me here. you know as well as i that any talk of balance changes, even hypothetical changes that have a flat 0% probability to making it into the game or even any mod, has a chance of degrading to flaming within the first 5 responses that is for all intents and purposes in the real world effectively 1.
an any case, i feel no ill sentiment to dev/HC, and i doubt he harbors any for me. just a couple of "trolls" being "trolls".
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If an object travels at a constant speed, then the distance traveled is proportional to the time spent traveling, with the speed being the constant of proportionality.
in other words, if a constant rate of posts are posted, the likelyhood of it degrading to pure flames and drama is proportional to the total number of posts. with the post rate being the constant of proportionality.
if probability = K * time * rate_of_posts (ie., the probability is linearly proportional to the time) and
time > 1 / (K * rate_of_posts) (ie., time = S00N(TM)),
then probability > 1.
in other words:
if probability = K * number_of_posts (ie., the probability is linearly proportional to the number of posts) and
number_of_posts > 1 / K (ie., number_of_posts = SHITLOAD(TM)),
then probability > 1.
the chance can approach 1, but can never reach it. for our purposes, chance is analogous to the speed of light. you can approach it to an infinitesimally small fraction, but you can never reach or pass it.
but that's not called linearly proportional.
furthermore, there is nothing untoward in kharnov mollifying me here. you know as well as i that any talk of balance changes, even hypothetical changes that have a flat 0% probability to making it into the game or even any mod, has a chance of degrading to flaming within the first 5 responses that is for all intents and purposes in the real world effectively 1.
that is WRONG for any definition of intents and purposes. explanation: you are the 3rd person that i've heard to say this phrase. ever since i've heard this phrase from the 2nd person (cron), i've realized that use of the phrase is not a "unique invention for one use by one person", but is actually a spreading, horrible meme: it's close to a childish version of (TM), is trying to sound majestic, and is used in conjunction with feelingful, as opposed to rational, descriptions. and i've decided to combat all uses of "for all intents and purposes, X" with "that is WRONG for any definition of intents and purposes".
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If an object travels at a constant speed, then the distance traveled is proportional to the time spent traveling, with the speed being the constant of proportionality.
in other words, if a constant rate of posts are posted, the likelyhood of it degrading to pure flames and drama is proportional to the total number of posts. with the post rate being the constant of proportionality.
if probability = K * time * rate_of_posts (ie., the probability is linearly proportional to the time) and
time > 1 / (K * rate_of_posts) (ie., time = S00N(TM)),
then probability > 1.
in other words:
if probability = K * number_of_posts (ie., the probability is linearly proportional to the number of posts) and
number_of_posts > 1 / K (ie., number_of_posts = SHITLOAD(TM)),
then probability > 1.
the chance can approach 1, but can never reach it. for our purposes, chance is analogous to the speed of light. you can approach it to an infinitesimally small fraction, but you can never reach or pass it.
but that's not called linearly proportional.
furthermore, there is nothing untoward in kharnov mollifying me here. you know as well as i that any talk of balance changes, even hypothetical changes that have a flat 0% probability to making it into the game or even any mod, has a chance of degrading to flaming within the first 5 responses that is for all intents and purposes in the real world effectively 1.
that is WRONG for any definition of intents and purposes. explanation: you are the 3rd person that i've heard to say this phrase. ever since i've heard this phrase from the 2nd person (cron), i've realized that use of the phrase is not a "unique invention for one use by one person", but is actually a spreading, horrible meme: it's close to a childish version of (TM), is trying to sound majestic, and is used in conjunction with feelingful, as opposed to rational, descriptions. and i've decided to combat all uses of "for all intents and purposes, X" with "that is WRONG for any definition of intents and purposes".
sorry, wasent paying much attention to my post before work, was kind of in a rush.
nor am i in the mood to deal with math, i do too much of that shit at work and in my spare time dicking around with code. lets leave my analogy alone. yes, it is not a true mathematical law. on the other hand, i have loads of circumstantial evidence (in the feedback and suggestion forum as well as gameplay discussion) that prove my point, in a roundabout way.
"intents and purposes" is not some shocking new turn of phrase, having been used at least as far back as the 1500's see: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/for_all_intents_and_purposes
feel free to combat it, it is not for me to stop you from your desired futility.
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Une questino.
That goon model that stannum made and textured.
Who can use it? TremZ? Unv? Both?
Is he redoing all of the alien models?
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yes, it is not a true mathematical law. on the other hand, i have loads of circumstantial evidence (in the feedback and suggestion forum as well as gameplay discussion) that prove my point, in a roundabout way.
"intents and purposes" is not some shocking new turn of phrase, having been used at least as far back as the 1500's see: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/for_all_intents_and_purposes
feel free to combat it, it is not for me to stop you from your desired futility.
I might be wrong, but this post gave me the impression you missed what /dev/humancontroller was saying: that an unreserved direct proportion would mean that eventually the event would be more than certain and that this makes no sense. This interpretation is pretty pedantic though, since by the same token you can infer that the proportion must be bounded by probability = 1 and that this was left out for brevity.
Such a proportionality can exist, for example in a game of six rounds (numbered 0 to 5) where at each round you roll a die and if you roll a number larger than the number of the round you progress to the next round (progressing passed round 5 is a win). In this game the probability of failing to progress at any given round is directly proportional to the round's number. If you like, you could even add a sixth round so that nobody could win :P. Note that this is not the same as saying the probability of reaching a round is proportional to the round's number, since this event depends on having reached all the previous rounds as well.
Now, this isn't to say that this game bears any resemblance to a message board. Far from it. Since the content of posts depend on so many real-world factors, you're unlikely to find such a simple relationship. That is why it would be natural to assume you're simply modelling the relationship, which allows a measurable error for the sake of simplicity. In this case you would need to better define the event of '[having] degrade[d] to pure flaming', but I would guess there exists a dependence between the occurrence of a flame-like post and the subsequent number of flame-like posts (without considering ragequits and thread locking) so your model might be somewhat justifiable. It should be appreciated, though, that even without such a dependence the probability of almost any event occurring increases over time by the Infinite monkey theorem.
Yet I'm sure that your actual intent was even more basic than this: You were making an analogy. As time goes on the probability increases, just like two variables in direct proportion. But a mathematical relationship is a bad choice for an analogy: the analogy fails to illustrate your loose meaning. Maths is a formal construct and by referring to it you can only be asking for a literal interpretation.
As for "intents and purposes" I don't think he thought this was a new phrase. He was just complaining about how people use it. I'm just glad you didn't say "intensive purposes". For me, though, this is way down the list: I'll teach you to annoy me, because I could care less about your choice to literally sound like a broken record in the way you parrot phrases irregardless of whether you understand them.
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Une questino.
That goon model that stannum made and textured.
Who can use it? TremZ? Unv? Both?
Is he redoing all of the alien models?
Stannum only textured the model, Gregstein made the model. Also, while TremZ can use the textures, they seem to want to use other models. Also, Stannum is not redoing the alien models, Dan is going to be retexturing and galvig will be providing animation touchups.
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nux, i did indeed abstract out that probability <= 1.
this is all superfluous, common sense should dictate that i am not pronouncing a mathematical law of forums. i am no forum physicist. common sense should also dictate that i must have been making an analogy. there is no conceivable way i could be in possession of enough relevant information to actually make a proper mathematical formula that accurately expresses the likelihood that any given post in a thread will be a flame and followed by flames.
the point has been missed time and again. flaming and drama is not a chance. it is a certainty. the only question is how long it will take.
and finally, sorry, i have a vocabulary. i did not misuse the phrase (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/all-intents-and-purposes.html). and from the first sentence on the subject, it seems dh/c was ignorant to its existence.
you'll note he calls my usage wrong, and then proceeds to tell me i am the third he has "heard" use the phrase.
and none of this discussion has any bearing on why my concerns cannot be addressed in this thread. if posting in the modding section is so important, anyone can feel free to copy-paste my test to that thread. i wont be bothered with it.
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I agree, wholeheartedly. I even reread /dev/humancontroller's post and it does now seem to me like he's never heard this ~500-year-old phrase before.
Oh, sorry! I don't think I'm doing drama right.
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there is no conceivable way i could be in possession of enough relevant information to actually make a proper mathematical formula that accurately expresses the likelihood that any given post in a thread will be a flame and followed by flames.
but some formulas are automatically contradictory, and therefore WRONG.
i did not misuse the phrase (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/all-intents-and-purposes.html). and from the first sentence on the subject, it seems dh/c was ignorant to its existence.
WRONG. i have really heard it only ~3 times in my whole lifetime, yet i have never made any assumption about the time the phrase first appeared.
you'll note he calls my usage wrong, and then proceeds to tell me i am the third he has "heard" use the phrase.
hearing the phrase for the first time even without any knowledge about its "proprietary" definition is nerve-racking: the phrase is just retarded. the only way one can use the phrase CORRECT(TM)ly is by defining the meaning of the phrase retardedly, which is WRONG(TM); but i've already explained this somewhat differently.
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there is no conceivable way i could be in possession of enough relevant information to actually make a proper mathematical formula that accurately expresses the likelihood that any given post in a thread will be a flame and followed by flames.
but some formulas are automatically contradictory, and therefore WRONG.
i did not misuse the phrase (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/all-intents-and-purposes.html). and from the first sentence on the subject, it seems dh/c was ignorant to its existence.
WRONG. i have really heard it only ~3 times in my whole lifetime, yet i have never made any assumption about the time the phrase first appeared.
you'll note he calls my usage wrong, and then proceeds to tell me i am the third he has "heard" use the phrase.
hearing the phrase for the first time even without any knowledge about its "proprietary" definition is nerve-racking: the phrase is just retarded. the only way one can use the phrase CORRECT(TM)ly is by defining the meaning of the phrase retardedly, which is WRONG(TM); but i've already explained this somewhat differently.
yes, in black and white terms my formula is WRONG. this is because you, the reader, are supposed to have the common sense to know there is no possible way i could conceivably make a right formula. i had forgotten that you are somewhat more literal minded than a machine. my bad.
and sorry dh/c, you may have logic and mathematics downpat, but language does not work in quite the same manner. just because you are ignorant to a phrases existence and it's proper usage does not make said phrase retarded. nor is the correctness of the usage of the phrase dependent on your personal understanding of it.
so yes, while it may seem stupid and retarded, fine, you are always entitled to your opinion. that does not make my usage any less correct.
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just because you are ignorant to a phrases existence and it's proper usage does not make said phrase retarded. nor is the correctness of the usage of the phrase dependent on your personal understanding of it.
DEFINITION: a real number is intuitively small if and only if it is greater than 1000.
so 1337, 13371337, 133713371337, etc. are all intuitively small. correct?
WRONG(TM).
btw:
a phrases existence and it's proper usage
a phrase's existence and its proper usage*
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DEFINITION: a real number is intuitively small if and only if it is greater than 1000.
so 1337, 13371337, 133713371337, etc. are all intuitively small. correct?
WRONG(TM).
I think your point was that just because your usage of a term/phrase is consistent doesn't make it true (I guess, we're defining 'true' as intuitive here). As far as I'm concerned, there's no problem with your usage of the term 'intuitively small' as you defined it. Maybe this is just because I'm used to interchanging the meanings of placeholder variables and judging statements on their consistency above their practicality.
To address the main point, though, I approve of fighting for better explaining power but I wouldn't pretend our language isn't built out of a mass of recycled words which have been distorted and broken over time to mean things they never meant before.
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I'll teach you to annoy me, because I could care less about your choice to literally sound like a broken record in the way you parrot phrases irregardless of whether you understand them.
Not sure if ironic or just a bad choice of phrase.
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Irony.
"I'll teach you to..." and "I could care less" were originally "I'll teach you a lesson [punish] for..." and "I couldn't care less" respectively but were corrupted into literally saying the opposite of what they mean. "literally" is also misused in sentences very much not intended to be interpretted literally. "irregardless" is most likely a combination of "irrespective" and "regardless", used as a synonym for either, yet by composition is a double negative and means the exact the opposite.
Many phrases are distorted intentionally and become popular because irony is entertaining, but I believe these corruptions are simply the result of ignorance. I hate ignorance. Ignorance is stupid.
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just because you are ignorant to a phrases existence and it's proper usage does not make said phrase retarded. nor is the correctness of the usage of the phrase dependent on your personal understanding of it.
DEFINITION: a real number is intuitively small if and only if it is greater than 1000.
so 1337, 13371337, 133713371337, etc. are all intuitively small. correct?
WRONG(TM).
btw:
a phrases existence and it's proper usage
a phrase's existence and its proper usage*
first block, it is WRONG that you are misusing the definition. in this instance, you are talking about a CONTINUOUS FUNCTION. as such it should be expressed as a mathematical formula, and not an actual number.
your example demonstrates nothing, as it is WRONG, you therefor fail to cast any analogy or metaphor about my own actions. which, by the way, my actions were to use a phrase correctly, then extract definitions that support my usage.
second block, yes, i do make grammatical mistakes. especially when i am dazed on pain pills and a bleeding hole in my mouth. disliking a phrase is one thing, but grammar nazism is usually the last stand of one who knows they have been outargued. i am seriously let down you have stooped to this.
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just because you are ignorant to a phrases existence and it's proper usage does not make said phrase retarded. nor is the correctness of the usage of the phrase dependent on your personal understanding of it.
DEFINITION: a real number is intuitively small if and only if it is greater than 1000.
so 1337, 13371337, 133713371337, etc. are all intuitively small. correct?
WRONG(TM).
first block, it is WRONG that you are misusing the definition. in this instance, you are talking about a CONTINUOUS FUNCTION. as such it should be expressed as a mathematical formula, and not an actual number.
what the clockfuck are you talking about?
your example demonstrates nothing, as it is WRONG, you therefor fail to cast any analogy or metaphor about my own actions.
WRONG. i demonstrate how retarded a definition can be, whether or not used appropriately.
by the way, my actions were to use a phrase correctly, then extract definitions that support my usage.
which i don't give a shit about, because i stated the reason why i call the use of "for all intentes and purposes" WRONG: because the phrase is just retarded.
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I have no idea what are you guys posting about...
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just because you are ignorant to a phrases existence and it's proper usage does not make said phrase retarded. nor is the correctness of the usage of the phrase dependent on your personal understanding of it.
DEFINITION: a real number is intuitively small if and only if it is greater than 1000.
so 1337, 13371337, 133713371337, etc. are all intuitively small. correct?
WRONG(TM).
first block, it is WRONG that you are misusing the definition. in this instance, you are talking about a CONTINUOUS FUNCTION. as such it should be expressed as a mathematical formula, and not an actual number.
what the clockfuck are you talking about?
your example demonstrates nothing, as it is WRONG, you therefor fail to cast any analogy or metaphor about my own actions.
WRONG. i demonstrate how retarded a definition can be, whether or not used appropriately.
by the way, my actions were to use a phrase correctly, then extract definitions that support my usage.
which i don't give a shit about, because i stated the reason why i call the use of "for all intentes and purposes" WRONG: because the phrase is just retarded.
the clockfuck i am talking about is real numbers being intuitively small. a "real number" is actually a series (continuous function). a series is customarily represented by a formula, and not an actual integer.
WRONG, you demonstrated how retarded it is to use a definition incorrectly. to cast an analogy, your example would be similar yo me saying "the sky is the surface that we walk upon". for all intents and purposes, my usage of this phrase is equivalent to saying "the sky is what we call the gasses of our atmosphere, colloquially."
you can have your opinion on how retarded any given thing is, but your opinion does not generate fact. the fact is, i used a phrase correctly. correct != WRONG.
i'll make a deal with you, you handle code corrections and errors in describing how any given section of code will run, and you leave the semantics to me. this way, we both play to our strengths.
I have no idea what are you guys posting about...
exactly what it looks like, we are trolling each other good naturedly.
in closing, i would like to re-rail the topic a bit. i just wonder why the UNV folks wont answer me here. they want me to either discuss this in an arena under their personal control, or in a thread that may or may not be locked if a moderator interprets any given line as hostile. i find both options unacceptable.
hell you guys wouldent answer my concerns before the fork on "your" forums. you gave no reasons for your balance changes, aside from alien nerfs. as far as i know, every alien change at all was something of a nerf and brings the A team closer to hovelless 1.1.
so do the smart thing. address my concerns, try to make a believer out of me. it can only help you, as each player you "convert" will draw more players by word of mouth. help yourself or set yourselves back, it really makes no difference to me. though, considering how things are going now, your project will not even hit the "success" of trem 1.1.
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just because you are ignorant to a phrases existence and it's proper usage does not make said phrase retarded. nor is the correctness of the usage of the phrase dependent on your personal understanding of it.
DEFINITION: a real number is intuitively small if and only if it is greater than 1000.
so 1337, 13371337, 133713371337, etc. are all intuitively small. correct?
WRONG(TM).
first block, it is WRONG that you are misusing the definition. in this instance, you are talking about a CONTINUOUS FUNCTION. as such it should be expressed as a mathematical formula, and not an actual number.
what the clockfuck are you talking about?
the clockfuck i am talking about is real numbers being intuitively small. a "real number" is actually a series (continuous function). a series is customarily represented by a formula, and not an actual integer.
you are fucking retarded, and are clueless about what a real number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_number), a series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_%28mathematics%29), and a function (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_%28mathematics%29) is, and what continuous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_function) means.
your example demonstrates nothing, as it is WRONG, you therefor fail to cast any analogy or metaphor about my own actions.
WRONG. i demonstrate how retarded a definition can be, whether or not used appropriately.
by the way, my actions were to use a phrase correctly, then extract definitions that support my usage.
which i don't give a shit about, because i stated the reason why i call the use of "for all intentes and purposes" WRONG: because the phrase is just retarded.
WRONG, you demonstrated how retarded it is to use a definition incorrectly.
WRONG.
to cast an analogy, your example would be similar yo me saying "the sky is the surface that we walk upon". for all intents and purposes, my usage of this phrase is equivalent to saying "the sky is what we call the gasses of our atmosphere, colloquially."
you are fucking retarded.
by the way, my actions were to use a phrase correctly, then extract definitions that support my usage.
which i don't give a shit about, because i stated the reason why i call the use of "for all intentes and purposes" WRONG: because the phrase is just retarded.
you can have your opinion on how retarded any given thing is, but your opinion does not generate fact. the fact is, i used a phrase correctly. correct != WRONG.
however, retarded + correct = WRONG(TM).
PS: i fixed the quoting for you.
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in closing, i would like to re-rail the topic a bit. i just wonder why the UNV folks wont answer me here. they want me to either discuss this in an arena under their personal control, or in a thread that may or may not be locked if a moderator interprets any given line as hostile. i find both options unacceptable.
hell you guys wouldent answer my concerns before the fork on "your" forums. you gave no reasons for your balance changes, aside from alien nerfs. as far as i know, every alien change at all was something of a nerf and brings the A team closer to hovelless 1.1.
so do the smart thing. address my concerns, try to make a believer out of me. it can only help you, as each player you "convert" will draw more players by word of mouth. help yourself or set yourselves back, it really makes no difference to me. though, considering how things are going now, your project will not even hit the "success" of trem 1.1.
I'm almost positive I've already replied to your concerns about balance. No changes to balance are currently planned. In the future large changes to gameplay will happen. Do you have any other questions?
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did you even read those articles, devH/c? those are exactly what i had open when i posted last. and looking through them, again i see nothing that refutes the fact that your example was wrong, or using terminology wrong. whereas i am right and was correctly using my example.
I'm almost positive I've already replied to your concerns about balance. No changes to balance are currently planned. In the future large changes to gameplay will happen. Do you have any other questions?
you did? if so, your explanation was so spectacularly unsatisfactory as to have eluded my memory completely.
no further changes, huh? so, crippled punce and trample, and crazy human buffs. yea, fuck that.
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and looking through them, again i see nothing that refutes the fact that your example was wrong, or using terminology wrong.
you dumbass. does it at least occur to you that you have no idea what continuous function really means?
i did not use any common terminology except real number, and greater than. i then defined own term (that has nothing to do with series, functions, or continuity), and used it (correctly) to deduce some "surprizing" consequences.
i am right and was correctly using my example.
WRONG.
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I'm almost positive I've already replied to your concerns about balance. No changes to balance are currently planned. In the future large changes to gameplay will happen. Do you have any other questions?
you did? if so, your explanation was so spectacularly unsatisfactory as to have eluded my memory completely.
no further changes, huh? so, crippled punce and trample, and crazy human buffs. yea, fuck that.
I'm not sure why you think humans are OP compared to aliens. Aliens got some really strong stage 2 buffs in the form of weaker turrets + S2 goons. If anything I think aliens are too strong at the moment. In fact I'm surprised that you're angry about some minor game balance issues when there's eventually going to be some pretty major gameplay changes coming up (which no doubt most people will hate; at least initially).
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and looking through them, again i see nothing that refutes the fact that your example was wrong, or using terminology wrong.
you dumbass. does it at least occur to you that you have no idea what continuous function really means?
i did not use any common terminology except real number, and greater than. i then defined own term (that has nothing to do with series, functions, or continuity), and used it (correctly) to deduce some "surprizing" consequences.
i am right and was correctly using my example.
WRONG.
you're right, at the time, i did not know what a continuous function was, nor did i remember what real numbers were, as its been a decade or more since i used them last. then i skimmed that article (that i got to by searching "real number intuitively small").
you, however, might want to actually read those articles you linked, as i mentioned last time, they support my position, and make you look like you dont know what the hell you are talking about. especially considering you claim that your term encompassed none of "series, functions, or continuity". if you look up "real number" you'd know that a real number is all of those things.
sorry that your made-up definition is actually something of a real term. here, since we're on an example kick, i'll give you another one of what you just did. you metaphorically handed me a wheel of cheese, and insisted that it was a birthday cake.
or how about this one? i know i am combining the ingredients of gunpowder, but that is not what i am making, i am making "spark dust". despite the fact that it is made link gunpowder, and acts as gunpowder, it is really spark dust and is in no way related to gunpowder.
good thing this isnt a regulation troll-off or anything. i'd have an almost unbeatable advantage by now if it were.
I'm almost positive I've already replied to your concerns about balance. No changes to balance are currently planned. In the future large changes to gameplay will happen. Do you have any other questions?
you did? if so, your explanation was so spectacularly unsatisfactory as to have eluded my memory completely.
no further changes, huh? so, crippled punce and trample, and crazy human buffs. yea, fuck that.
I'm not sure why you think humans are OP compared to aliens. Aliens got some really strong stage 2 buffs in the form of weaker turrets + S2 goons. If anything I think aliens are too strong at the moment. In fact I'm surprised that you're angry about some minor game balance issues when there's eventually going to be some pretty major gameplay changes coming up (which no doubt most people will hate; at least initially).
1.2 humans are not OP compared to aliens. they dont have infinisprint, for one. nor do they have at least one update's worth of buffs in the changelog (alpha release was nothing but human buffs, only three alien changes were nerfs.) youve also got the bullshit poison immunity after using a medkit as well, right? wow, HUGE s2 nerf right there, yet you fail to remember it.
those three alien changes were more inline with making the A team into a 1.1 mirror of itself (as all three changes undo changes wrought by gpp, pounce, trample, basigrab).
weaker turrets do not interest me. being weaker does not really diminish the effectiveness of sitting on top of one and camping with the now-more-deadly-weapons. s2 goons are a nerf. you nerfed pounce. GPP has unnerfed s2 goon+. so what is your advantage? you are trying to entice me with a nerf i explicitly stated i hate? you confuse me.
i am "upset" at these "minor game issues" because of the thought, or lack thereof, behind them. you have done nothing but buff humans, and nothing but nerf aliens. i could give a shit about any changes after that fact, at this point. in order to move my "give a shit" gauge back out of the red zone, you'll have to buff aliens back up to gpp levels, then go and buff them more to equalize the bullshit you've given humans.
as ive said before, your development shows a very heavy bias toward the H team. were i you, i would work on developing AI for the A team, as i dont see how anyone would want to play them at all, and you guys seem to want to play "duck hunt with dretches".
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you, however, might want to actually read those articles you linked, as i mentioned last time, they support my position, and make you look like you dont know what the hell you are talking about.
WRONG. the articles do not support anyone directly. they do, however, support the fact that i created a valid, but retarded definition for demonstrative purposes, and used it correctly, and that you don't know what you are talking about.
especially considering you claim that your term encompassed none of "series, functions, or continuity". if you look up "real number" you'd know that a real number is all of those things.
analysists define real numbers as a complete, totally ordered field. 294.57294 is a real number, e1234567891011121314 is a real number, √1337 is a real number, etc.. everyone uses real numbers in this form. set theorists, on the other hand, assume very little (with reason: does a complete, totally ordered field even exist? that's not trivial), and define real numbers as sets of sets (yo dawg), as they do with everything else, and prove properties about those sets. all of this irrelevant, because your ass is also defined as a set of sets.
sorry that your made-up definition is actually something of a real term. here, since we're on an example kick, i'll give you another one of what you just did. you metaphorically handed me a wheel of cheese, and insisted that it was a birthday cake.
or how about this one? i know i am combining the ingredients of gunpowder, but that is not what i am making, i am making "spark dust". despite the fact that it is made link gunpowder, and acts as gunpowder, it is really spark dust and is in no way related to gunpowder.
WRONG. give me a quote about someone defining intuitively small. even if you do manage to find one, that's irrelevant, because i defined something locally, superseding other local definition made by Johnny Anonymous in his paper about Stavier-Nokez equations.
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you, however, might want to actually read those articles you linked, as i mentioned last time, they support my position, and make you look like you dont know what the hell you are talking about.
WRONG. the articles do not support anyone directly. they do, however, support the fact that i created a valid, but retarded definition for demonstrative purposes, and used it correctly, and that you don't know what you are talking about.
especially considering you claim that your term encompassed none of "series, functions, or continuity". if you look up "real number" you'd know that a real number is all of those things.
analysists define real numbers as a complete, totally ordered field. 294.57294 is a real number, e1234567891011121314 is a real number, √1337 is a real number, etc.. everyone uses real numbers in this form. set theorists, on the other hand, assume very little (with reason: does a complete, totally ordered field even exist? that's not trivial), and define real numbers as sets of sets (yo dawg), as they do with everything else, and prove properties about those sets. all of this irrelevant, because your ass is also defined as a set of sets.
sorry that your made-up definition is actually something of a real term. here, since we're on an example kick, i'll give you another one of what you just did. you metaphorically handed me a wheel of cheese, and insisted that it was a birthday cake.
or how about this one? i know i am combining the ingredients of gunpowder, but that is not what i am making, i am making "spark dust". despite the fact that it is made link gunpowder, and acts as gunpowder, it is really spark dust and is in no way related to gunpowder.
WRONG. give me a quote about someone defining intuitively small. even if you do manage to find one, that's irrelevant, because i defined something locally, superseding other local definition made by Johnny Anonymous in his paper about Stavier-Nokez equations.
lazy quote pyramid.
i think i see what the issue is here. i may be literal minded, but you truly think like a machine.
the problem is that in spoken language, unlike a programming language, the local definition does not supersede the global definition. if i defined a class as a function, locally, i'd have a hell of a time explaining to someone how to use a class.
In mathematics, a continuous function is a function for which, intuitively, "small" changes in the input result in "small" changes in the output.
In mathematics, a function[1] is a relation between a set of inputs and a set of potential outputs with the property that each input is related to exactly one output.
A series is, informally speaking, the sum of the terms of a sequence.
In mathematics, a sequence is an ordered list of objects (or events). Like a set, it contains members (also called elements or terms), and the number of terms (possibly infinite) is called the length of the sequence. Unlike a set, order matters, and exactly the same elements can appear multiple times at different positions in the sequence. A sequence is a discrete function.
In mathematics, a real number is a value that represents a quantity along a continuous line.
In mathematics, real is used as an adjective, meaning that the underlying field is the field of the real numbers (or the real field). For example real matrix, real polynomial and real Lie algebra. As a substantive, the term is used almost strictly in reference to the real numbers themselves (e.g., The "set of all reals").
The real number system (\mathbb R,+,\cdot,<) can be defined axiomatically up to an isomorphism, which is described below. There are also many ways to construct "the" real number system, for example, starting from natural numbers, then defining rational numbers algebraically, and finally defining real numbers as equivalence classes of their Cauchy sequences or as Dedekind cuts, which are certain subsets of rational numbers. Another possibility is to start from some rigorous axiomatization of Euclidean geometry (Hilbert, Tarski etc.) and then define the real number system geometrically. From the structuralist point of view all these constructions are on equal footing.
Let R denote the set of all real numbers. Then:
The set R is a field, meaning that addition and multiplication are defined and have the usual properties.
The field R is ordered, meaning that there is a total order ≥ such that, for all real numbers x, y and z:
if x ≥ y then x + z ≥ y + z;
if x ≥ 0 and y ≥ 0 then xy ≥ 0.
The order is Dedekind-complete; that is, every non-empty subset S of R with an upper bound in R has a least upper bound (also called supremum) in R.
The last property is what differentiates the reals from the rationals. For example, the set of rationals with square less than 2 has a rational upper bound (e.g., 1.5) but no rational least upper bound, because the square root of 2 is not rational.
The real numbers are uniquely specified by the above properties. More precisely, given any two Dedekind-complete ordered fields R1 and R2, there exists a unique field isomorphism from R1 to R2, allowing us to think of them as essentially the same mathematical object.
i'm not 100% sure here, but i dont think you were using any term of your nonsense definition correctly.
therefore, you, good sir, are WRONG.
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the problem is that in spoken language, unlike a programming language, the local definition does not supersede the global definition.
WRONG.
if i defined a class as a function, locally, i'd have a hell of a time explaining to someone how to use a class.
that is if you do not first explain your local terminology to him/her.
In mathematics, a continuous function is a function for which, intuitively, "small" changes in the input result in "small" changes in the output.
does anyone see, in the above statement, a definition for what it means for a real number to be intuitively small? does anyone even see a definition here?
In mathematics, a function[1] is a relation between a set of inputs and a set of potential outputs with the property that each input is related to exactly one output.
functions came nowhere near the topic before you brought them in. in fact, the only function i may have implicitly defined is a real-to-boolean function, answering the "is this number intuitively small?" question. ie.,
f : ℝ -> Boolean
f(x) = true if and only if x > 1000
A series is, informally speaking, the sum of the terms of a sequence.
no sums were used.
In mathematics, a sequence is an ordered list of objects (or events). Like a set, it contains members (also called elements or terms), and the number of terms (possibly infinite) is called the length of the sequence. Unlike a set, order matters, and exactly the same elements can appear multiple times at different positions in the sequence. A sequence is a discrete function.
i have not really used any sequences. in fact, the only sequence i may have implicitly defined is <1337,13371337,133713371337,...>, and that happened when i named a few example numbers (being 1337, 13371337, etc.) that are intuitively small.
In mathematics, a real number is a value that represents a quantity along a continuous line.
PROBLEM?
i'm not 100% sure here, but i dont think you were using any term of your nonsense definition correctly.
therefore, you, good sir, are WRONG.
WRONG.
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1.2 humans are not OP compared to aliens. they dont have infinisprint, for one. nor do they have at least one update's worth of buffs in the changelog (alpha release was nothing but human buffs, only three alien changes were nerfs.) youve also got the bullshit poison immunity after using a medkit as well, right? wow, HUGE s2 nerf right there, yet you fail to remember it.
those three alien changes were more inline with making the A team into a 1.1 mirror of itself (as all three changes undo changes wrought by gpp, pounce, trample, basigrab).
weaker turrets do not interest me. being weaker does not really diminish the effectiveness of sitting on top of one and camping with the now-more-deadly-weapons. s2 goons are a nerf. you nerfed pounce. GPP has unnerfed s2 goon+. so what is your advantage? you are trying to entice me with a nerf i explicitly stated i hate? you confuse me.
i am "upset" at these "minor game issues" because of the thought, or lack thereof, behind them. you have done nothing but buff humans, and nothing but nerf aliens. i could give a shit about any changes after that fact, at this point. in order to move my "give a shit" gauge back out of the red zone, you'll have to buff aliens back up to gpp levels, then go and buff them more to equalize the bullshit you've given humans.
as ive said before, your development shows a very heavy bias toward the H team. were i you, i would work on developing AI for the A team, as i dont see how anyone would want to play them at all, and you guys seem to want to play "duck hunt with dretches".
That's fine. Like I said I'm not really concerned with balance at the moment (maybe other members of the dev team are, I don't know). As far as I'm concerned the balance is good enough for public gameplay. If you're interested in making balance suggestions then I'd suggest you to make a post at our forums (as some dev members don't check here). If you'd prefer to not be involved then that's fine as well.
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Wait I wanna play too.
WRONG.
Yeah, it's funny.
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devH/C, your strawman, for all intents and purposes, has become tiresome.
your ignorance of a phrase and its etymology does not make the proper usage of said phrase less proper and correct.
That's fine. Like I said I'm not really concerned with balance at the moment (maybe other members of the dev team are, I don't know). As far as I'm concerned the balance is good enough for public gameplay. If you're interested in making balance suggestions then I'd suggest you to make a post at our forums (as some dev members don't check here). If you'd prefer to not be involved then that's fine as well.
ah, i see. unvanq is going to be a "good enough" project. this explains a lot actually. and here i thought you guys were actually striving for some sort of quality. instead you're just making a bunch of arbitrary changes and calling it "good enough".
having played the alpha, i can tell you, gameplay != balanced. i might be willing to try another build if balance changes are made. i am not willing so long as i perceive a massive H bias. or a 1.1 bias for that matter, as both forks are supposed to move the game forward, rather than backwards. remember the turret debuff you brought up? was not a turret buff a part of the GPP changes? so again, you are not trying to make neo-1.1 how?
i remain steadfast in my resistance to joining your forum or contributing in any other way than making criticizing posts here. i do not particularly care who reads these, or if my criticisms are taken to heart. perhaps if you didnt use fugly alien models, and have massively H biased gameplay changes paired with a desire to recreate 1.1, i might be persuaded otherwise.
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your ignorance of a phrase and its etymology does not make the proper usage of said phrase less proper and correct.
however, that also doesn't make the use of a phrase less retarded.
btw, i displayed no ignorance of the phrase, in fact, quite the opposite.
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It seems pretty clear to me that:
- /dev/humancontroller had heard the 'intents and purposes' phrase before but only recently.
- He thought it was a newly trending saying, which it is not.
- He doesn't like the phrase, which he is free to do so.
What's less clear is whether he actually understood what RAKninja-Decepticon's use of the phrase was intended to mean1. English has so many inconsistent and overloaded terms in it that questioning words themselves rather than the intended meaning behind them will easily lead to an infinite regress of questionable questions.
Also, the hypothetical that /dev/humancontroller provided didn't even benefit from using real numbers any more than it would have from simply using the natural numbers. RAKninja-Decepticon's complaints about the hypothetical show a poor understanding of the concepts involved. Sorry, but you can't skim a wikipedia page and expect to be an expert. Also, he seemed to have missed how /dev/humancontroller was redefining 'intuitively small' in a novel way, since if he understood this, he would know how pointless searching for the term is. The usage of 'intuitively' in the article is the standard usage and is nothing to do with /dev/humancontroller's usage of the word.
1 For all intents and purposes does not literally mean "all" but instead most practical considerations.
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ah, i see. unvanq is going to be a "good enough" project. this explains a lot actually. and here i thought you guys were actually striving for some sort of quality. instead you're just making a bunch of arbitrary changes and calling it "good enough".
No, game balance is not important at the moment. Most people seem to be fairly happy with balance and considering that large gameplay changes are planned it's fairly pointless. Once we get organised scrims and competitive gameplay then I'd support changes to game balance. No competitive game balances solely around public/low level matches and neither should Unvanquished. Major balance and gameplay issues need to be addressed in public games but that's about it.
having played the alpha, i can tell you, gameplay != balanced. i might be willing to try another build if balance changes are made. i am not willing so long as i perceive a massive H bias. or a 1.1 bias for that matter, as both forks are supposed to move the game forward, rather than backwards. remember the turret debuff you brought up? was not a turret buff a part of the GPP changes? so again, you are not trying to make neo-1.1 how?
Most people on the dev team will agree with me when I say 1.1 (and by extension GPP/current Unv) gameplay is fundamentally broken. Large changes need to be made if we're to make Unvanquished a fun game for most people.
i remain steadfast in my resistance to joining your forum or contributing in any other way than making criticizing posts here. i do not particularly care who reads these, or if my criticisms are taken to heart. perhaps if you didnt use fugly alien models, and have massively H biased gameplay changes paired with a desire to recreate 1.1, i might be persuaded otherwise.
Then I suggest you wait. While the next few releases probably won't change your mind hopefully we'll have a release that you will enjoy playing some time in the future.
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however, that also doesn't make the use of a phrase less retarded.
btw, i displayed no ignorance of the phrase, in fact, quite the opposite.
let me refine my wording. until recently, you were ignorant of the phrase.
danmal: more bad dev philosophy. balancing for competitive play should be a mod. the base game should be balanced for public play. trace your project's heritage back to q3 and learn from that example.
who will care about your future updates if what you have available now is displeasing? and by this i mean to say the displeasure is not caused by things that can be excused for the alpha state of the release.
i seriously doubt your team is even capable of making something i would not actually actively dislike. i come to this conclusion based on usage of stupid and hideously ugly art assets (the only art i care about, alien models); stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes; and the overruling development philosophy your team has adopted.
the only thing i agree with is your sentiment that large changes are needed. yes, they very well are needed. unfortunatly, instead of addressing the core issues, your dev team is off spinning moonbeams piling more shit on top of the flawed gameplay. fix the fundamental flaws first, then add in extra shit.
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@RAKninja-Decepticon
It sounds like you've made up your mind. Like I said earlier you don't have to play the game or participate in development if you don't want to.
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@RAKninja-Decepticon
It sounds like you've made up your mind. Like I said earlier you don't have to play the game or participate in development if you don't want to.
you know what made my mind up? the way your team made their mind up about art and balance changes.
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stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes
As far as I know, they've made chomping easier in Unvanquished. The repeat is faster isn't it?
Yes the pounce has changed to make it less powerful but it is obvious that if you rely mainly on pounces (and according to Tremstats you do: Dragoon's Pounce : 241 / Dragoon's Claw : 89) then you'll undoubtedly see the pounce changes to be a detriment to aliens. But if you are an experienced chomper you would see that this is really an improvement!
Also, you are arguing from an alien player's perspective only. You are not aware of the limitations humans have because of your inexperience with them. According to Tremstats you have played 66:27:48 but only 04:35:03 on humans. As an illustrative example, you are like a small-dicked man complaining that the vagina is too big.
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stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes
As far as I know, they've made chomping easier in Unvanquished. The repeat is faster isn't it?
Yes the pounce has changed to make it less powerful but it is obvious that if you rely mainly on pounces (and according to Tremstats you do: Dragoon's Pounce : 241 / Dragoon's Claw : 89) then you'll undoubtedly see the pounce changes to be a detriment to aliens. But if you are an experienced chomper you would see that this is really an improvement!
Also, you are arguing from an alien player's perspective only. You are not aware of the limitations humans have because of your inexperience with them. According to Tremstats you have played 66:27:48 but only 04:35:03 on humans. As an illustrative example, you are like a small-dicked man complaining that the vagina is too big.
i do have more alien time than human (though i do have a lot more human time than that). and i am arguing from only the alien perspective. these facts have never been called into question because they should be self evident. i do pounce more often. as ive said directly about their change, pounce is movement, and hall clearing. and movement while hall clearing. the slower i move, the more likely i will get hit. it would not matter if i was a mara-sized dretch that could oneshot any human, if i could only move 50 ups. i would get shot the hell up by infini-sprinting humans with various buss to their weaponry.
the same applies to the goon. i cannot charge a pounce and chomp at the same time. this means to close any gap, i would have to wait for chomp's delay bullshit. all the while, i'd be getting shot up, giant target that i am. furthermore, when i finally do close the gap, i do reduced damage, knock the target back out of chomp range, and wait for pounce's delay bullshit. all the while getting shot up, giant target that i am. and dealing with infini-sprint.
so no, lowering the repeat on chomp does not make up for the damage done by nerfing pounce. not with the way the h cards stack up.
and dont get me started on that bullshit poison immunity. that is total horseshit. not very often am i reduced to simple profanity, but in regards to this i am. i mean seriously, what the fuck?
i am unswayed:
stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes
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My initial offer to demonstrate balance instead of pointlessly arguing it still stands. I'll play you in GPP, which, it seems, in your opinion is more balanced, then in Unvanquished.
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My initial offer to demonstrate balance instead of pointlessly arguing it still stands. I'll play you in GPP, which, it seems, in your opinion is more balanced, then in Unvanquished.
how again will you demonstrate balance? by making me play h and taking advantage of me not knowing/being in practice with all the movement tricks? or by playing h yourself and demonstrating my own lack of patience or much regard for dieing? yea, i suck fighting rants and goons as a human. whoop-ti-doo.
i'll just play as normal in the small time i have a chance to play these days.
you are right about my opinion. GPP, unbalanced as it is, is FAR less h biased than unvanq. and furthermore, its models (in the alien department), ugly as they are, are less so than those in unvanq.
seriously, just spend some dev time making AI and remove the ability to play as aliens and make it a carebear co-op game about exterminating aliens. or, alternately, spend some dev time unnerfing the aliens, and perhaps even giving them buffs for the utter bullshit you have heaped upon the humans. and getting some models that are not ugly as sin. you can keep the dretch, i guess, but everything else, especially the basi and goon, needs to go. first time i saw either of those two, i knew "this shit will look stupid as fuck in motion", and i feel i was very very right on that call.
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you are right about my opinion. GPP, unbalanced as it is, is FAR less h biased than unvanq. and furthermore, its models (in the alien department), ugly as they are, are less so than those in unvanq.
I'm interested to see where you are drawling this assumption from. The few games I played in UNVQ, aliens always won, with one exception.
It's true, pounce is only good for movement, but, chomp is borderline OP, so that more than makes up for that particular issue. Honestly, I feel that the alien play style doesn't directly migrate from gpp to UNVQ. Rather, as a goon in particular, you have to pounce much less, and chomp much more.
Maybe, instead of being so determined to hate a project that isn't custom made to fit your playstyle, you try expanding your horizons and play in a different way. Or at least see that tremulous gameplay doesn't revolve around you and your own personal balance ideals.
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Not quite. Just because pounce was nerfed does not mean that it is no longer a viable attack. Pounce was only nerfed such that it takes 1 more hit to kill. eg, 3 pounces to kill a turret, 4 pounces to kill a larmor + helmet human.
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you are right about my opinion. GPP, unbalanced as it is, is FAR less h biased than unvanq. and furthermore, its models (in the alien department), ugly as they are, are less so than those in unvanq.
I'm interested to see where you are drawling this assumption from. The few games I played in UNVQ, aliens always won, with one exception.
It's true, pounce is only good for movement, but, chomp is borderline OP, so that more than makes up for that particular issue. Honestly, I feel that the alien play style doesn't directly migrate from gpp to UNVQ. Rather, as a goon in particular, you have to pounce much less, and chomp much more.
Maybe, instead of being so determined to hate a project that isn't custom made to fit your playstyle, you try expanding your horizons and play in a different way. Or at least see that tremulous gameplay doesn't revolve around you and your own personal balance ideals.
aliens always winning can be attributed to many things. stax, humans who dont know how to play, bad builders, even lag. especially when you have admittedly few statistics to base your opinion on.
you are right about the playstyle not migrating from GPP, as ive been typing, it is closer to 1.1. pounce less, chomp more = overall slower goon = more quickle dead goon = nerfed goon.
i did try expanding my horizons. it sucked. therefor the torrent of feedback opinion.
and again i say i have no interest in being the nerfbat powered clay pigeon for a team of stupidly overbuffed humans. that is not expanding my horizons, that is pure masochism.
Not quite. Just because pounce was nerfed does not mean that it is no longer a viable attack. Pounce was only nerfed such that it takes 1 more hit to kill. eg, 3 pounces to kill a turret, 4 pounces to kill a larmor + helmet human.
increasing TTK by a factor of one repeat. which, combined with the overall faster TTK of humans (compared to gpp) equals massive goon, and therefore a-team nerf. and again, slower goon equals deader goon.
combine with trample nerf, either basi swipe or grab range nerf (you had to nerf one to equalize them, unless you went by the highest number only, which from my experiences on unv i find highly improbable) and the poison nerf, and all off the buffs you jizzed onto the humans equals massive h bias.
you fail to mention any change in knockback. so this nerbat pounce, it still pushed humans way out of chomp range, where they can stay forever due to infinisprint.
and bullshit poison immunity. jesus christ. do you just hate the A team so much that you wish to punish anyone who has no evos passed s2? you should know how hard it is to come back from a game where you have feeders who get h to s3 right before a hits s2. why do you practically eleminate the chance for such comebacks?
you. need. balance. changes. not stupid "hur hur hur, ima change this value for no reason" changes. not "this was in 1.1 so it must be good" changes. as a matter of fact, dont even attempt to change anything that you think will discourage camping.
make 1-5 small changes at a time, and observe the effect. small changes. dont heap a bunch of retarded garbage together and call it balance, as you have already done.
you do want to attract a playerbase, right? or do you want to just have a fraction of GPPs population for the "lifetime" of your "game"? if you want to be some nich thing, fine, you know no one will ever play your garbage. if you actually want to be the "successor" and attract more players, you're going to have to realize that the way you are progressing is incredibly stupid.
these changes (pounce and trample, mainly) have been discussed to death, and yet you ignored all the discussion to do your own thing. just like with almost every aspect of development i have observed thus far. that's great, keep doing that. just dont wonder why no one played your unbalanced shitware.
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This topic needs moar popcorn and cola
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This topic needs moar popcorn and cola
And you didn't bring any?! I expected more from you, CorSair.
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What I find strange is that there is so much discussion about ballance while (as far as I know) there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.
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the developers split up
means: we basically jettisoned some fags who were hindering development.
there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.
and? did you compare the current state to the one before the jettisoning?
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i did try expanding my horizons. it *I* sucked. therefor the torrent of feedback opinion.
Sucking at chomping seems to be your problem. And it is quite natural to blame anything but yourself as a coping mechanism for your deficiency. Fortunately, however, there are many people that CAN chomp that disprove any of your wild assumptions!
These same people will however admit that pouncing (in GPP) can be overpowered while chomping is underpowered unless your aim is near perfect. This is the reason for Unvanquished's changes: to balance out the ridiculous (and perhaps unskilled) pounce-spam while simultaneously encouraging and REWARDING people that can aim well with chomp. YOU CANNOT AIM WELL WITH CHOMP, apparently, SO YOU SEE NO BENEFIT. I do not see why you think it is unfair to reward skill (aiming with chomp) and decrease the benefits of spamming.
Another quote by you:
"furthermore, when i finally do close the gap, i do reduced damage, knock the target back out of chomp range, and wait for pounce's delay bullshit. "
shows that you do not know how to use pounce except to pounce spam. You complain about knocking the target back out of chomp range but if you spectate enough good goon players you will see that they either:
- pounce small enough or at the right angle to barely knock the target out of range
- pounce the human against a wall/corner thereby negating the knockback
- pounce NEXT to the human (no contact = no knockback)... yes this gives up pounce damage but can be advantageous if you immediately follow up with chomps
- pounce to dodge/run away and sneak up behind humans to chomp
This is by no means a full list of ways to use pounce and chomp together successfully but maybe they will convince you that you are not using the goon to its full potential but rather in a way that many find is cheap (relying mainly on pounce spamming!) and not always effective. You may be able to get away with it in GPP but Unvanquished is trying to discourage this behavior.
I understand that you dislike Unvanquished for nerfing something you find effective but this illustrates a problem in YOUR PLAY-STYLE not necessarily Unvanquished's balance! Yes, UVQ will still need to be balanced and rebalanced and no it is not perfect nor will any game ever be perfect. But to say that because YOU cannot excel at the game it is unbalanced is egotistic.
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What I find strange is that there is so much discussion about ballance while (as far as I know) there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.
if they would fix their balance and art, perhaps they wouldent be so barren.
i did try expanding my horizons. it *I* sucked. therefor the torrent of feedback opinion.
Sucking at chomping seems to be your problem. And it is quite natural to blame anything but yourself as a coping mechanism for your deficiency. Fortunately, however, there are many people that CAN chomp that disprove any of your wild assumptions!
These same people will however admit that pouncing (in GPP) can be overpowered while chomping is underpowered unless your aim is near perfect. This is the reason for Unvanquished's changes: to balance out the ridiculous (and perhaps unskilled) pounce-spam while simultaneously encouraging and REWARDING people that can aim well with chomp. YOU CANNOT AIM WELL WITH CHOMP, apparently, SO YOU SEE NO BENEFIT. I do not see why you think it is unfair to reward skill (aiming with chomp) and decrease the benefits of spamming.
Another quote by you:
"furthermore, when i finally do close the gap, i do reduced damage, knock the target back out of chomp range, and wait for pounce's delay bullshit. "
shows that you do not know how to use pounce except to pounce spam. You complain about knocking the target back out of chomp range but if you spectate enough good goon players you will see that they either:
- pounce small enough or at the right angle to barely knock the target out of range
- pounce the human against a wall/corner thereby negating the knockback
- pounce NEXT to the human (no contact = no knockback)... yes this gives up pounce damage but can be advantageous if you immediately follow up with chomps
- pounce to dodge/run away and sneak up behind humans to chomp
This is by no means a full list of ways to use pounce and chomp together successfully but maybe they will convince you that you are not using the goon to its full potential but rather in a way that many find is cheap (relying mainly on pounce spamming!) and not always effective. You may be able to get away with it in GPP but Unvanquished is trying to discourage this behavior.
I understand that you dislike Unvanquished for nerfing something you find effective but this illustrates a problem in YOUR PLAY-STYLE not necessarily Unvanquished's balance! Yes, UVQ will still need to be balanced and rebalanced and no it is not perfect nor will any game ever be perfect. But to say that because YOU cannot excel at the game it is unbalanced is egotistic.
strawman. rather than address my opinion, you attempt to find fault with me, and then attack that.
who are these people you are citing? give me names.
aiming with chomp means nothing in the context of this argument. even with the best possible aim, it still sucks as an attack. if anything, it shows the imbalance that exists between humans and aliens at a fundamental level. humans gain damage reduction and benefit from location based damage (if your enemy cannot make a headshot, you get to live much longer than if he could). aliens get to be bigger and slower targets, and a hit scored anywhere registers full damage.
so, on the logic that you use that if it takes more skill it must be rewarded, i suggest that aliens are now worth 1/2 the creds, and get 2x exos per kill. because obviously it takes so much more skill to play aliens.
now to your bullshit list.
- does no damage even on GPP. stupid idea. perhaps viable against a solo human, but in that situation you will likely make the kill unless you really just suck.
- pouncespam. yes, it works, but you now must make an extra pounce in unvanq. longer ttk means deader goon.
- delay. i take hits i would not have needed to if i could have just pounced.
- this is stupid. this will only work on people who do not know how to play the game. or in situations where it really doesent matter what you do, you'll be making kills. like when everyone is distracted by rants, or before the humans have helmets. not a viable replacement for an actual pounce
no, i am not using the goon to full potential. mainly because the goon is not my favorite thing to be. your reasoning shows me that unvanq does not want to have mobile aliens. or even player aliens. as they like heaping buffs onto H and nerf onto A and then claim "we'll fix it later" when less and less people care about their bullshit every day.
i should get a fucking medal for being able to muster up the care enough to even tell you shmucks what you are doing wrong.
if you want to ATTRACT PLAYERS your BALANCE will have to somewhat cater to their PLAY STYLE.
and do not get it confused, it is not because i do not excel that i find this unbalanced. it is because i find unvanq unbalanced that i do not care to even attempt to excel.
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i should get a fucking medal for being able to muster up the care enough to even tell you shmucks what you are doing wrong.
motd
:police: :police:
:police:
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if you want to APPEASE RAKNINJA your BALANCE will have to somewhat cater to his PLAY STYLE.
Fix'd for you.
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if you want to APPEASE RAKNINJA your BALANCE will have to somewhat cater to his PLAY STYLE.
Fix'd for you.
by the dev team's own admission, less and less people play unvanq every day.
i guess the best part of being me is that there is so many of me.
tell me, on your official forums, are there people complaining? do you have more than say, 25 active users, even?
if the answer is no to one or both counts, perhaps you should pull your collective heads out of your asses. instead of dismissing what i am saying, listen to me.
you fucks are forgetting something important. you are not developing a game for people who like tremulous. you are developing a new game that should appeal to people outside of tremulous. if you only try to please those of use who are still playing gpp, that is the only "customer base" you can expect. this means you need to make the game more accessible. another way of saying this is "you need to make the game easier to pick up and learn".
this is not what you are doing.
in closing, look past the fact that i am shit-talking your baby. it matters not if i am right or wrong, you are still losing population. instead of being lazy cockmunches and claiming that you'll "fix it later" why dont you try fixing it now? you can do nothing but actually attract players by showing that you actually care.
but who am i fucking kidding, you dont. all you care about is being involved in some project so that you can feel important, regardless on the fact that said project is doomed to stall and fail, mainly due to lack on interest caused by your shitty development philosophy.
i should get a fucking medal for being able to muster up the care enough to even tell you shmucks what you are doing wrong.
motd
:police: :police:
:police:
stick around a while. i'll give you enough material for a year.
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Is it just me or do we got some sort attention whore around here?
If you really want your concerns shown up, write a proper list of your aggravating problems or write PM to (known) Unv Developer, instead of yelling (if you call that), and stop naming people cockmunches. Even I have good discipline not to tell you to "go fuck yourself" or name you being a cuntbag (although it takes lot from hot-headed person to do so. And I already did, dangit.) Also, jumping from assumption to assumption, is not healthy for discussion.
If you still say "whats the use when they don't even read", you just further reinforce your narcissistic shield. Good luck trying to get that off.
i guess the best part of being me is that there is so many of me.
You can really entertain people well, I admit.
Anyways, bring it on! I brought big load of popcorn and cola now, so others can nab on.
(note: I quit this whole Tremulous thing, I only come to forums to enjoy to watch the trainwreck. And maybe do comeback some time.)
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do we got
have* (also grammatically correct: "do we get a..."; "did we get a..."; "we got a..."; "we have got a...".)
cockmunches
cockmunchers*
also, that's my word btw.
If you really want your concerns shown up, write a proper list of your aggravating problems or write PM to (known) Unv Developer, instead of yelling (if you call that), and stop naming people cockmunches.
or he can do both at once (write aggravating problems and call people cockmunchers), over a period of time (one problem, one discussion, then another problem, etc.).
Even I have good discipline not to tell you to "go fuck yourself" or name you being a cuntbag
such act of discipline is pure cocksuckage. you should free yourself.
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Is it just me or do we got some sort attention whore around here?
If you really want your concerns shown up, write a proper list of your aggravating problems or write PM to (known) Unv Developer, instead of yelling (if you call that), and stop naming people cockmunches. Even I have good discipline not to tell you to "go fuck yourself" or name you being a cuntbag (although it takes lot from hot-headed person to do so. And I already did, dangit.) Also, jumping from assumption to assumption, is not healthy for discussion.
If you still say "whats the use when they don't even read", you just further reinforce your narcissistic shield. Good luck trying to get that off.
i guess the best part of being me is that there is so many of me.
You can really entertain people well, I admit.
Anyways, bring it on! I brought big load of popcorn and cola now, so others can nab on.
(note: I quit this whole Tremulous thing, I only come to forums to enjoy to watch the trainwreck. And maybe do comeback some time.)
the quickest way to get me to shut up is to stop responding to me. so long as people respond to me, i shall reply in kind. this is called conversation.
i dont care if my concerns are addressed. all i care about is voicing them. often. and loudly. it is a shame that i am reduced to explaining this to you, but that's kind of how i operate. i suck you into a stupid argument that flies so far off the track it is three steps away from even being related to the topic at hand.
loophole alert: i called no one a cockmunch, i merely claimed that a group of people were ACTING LIKE lazy cockmunches. not quite the same thing. for instance, i can act like a bird. this does not make me a bird.
as for "they dont even read" - im pretty sure they do. im just fairly certain they have no acceptable answers to my concerns. they, sadly, think that they know better, and are dooming themselves to stagnation.
if either project lasts the rest of the year, i will be amazed.
it was a fun dream while it lasted, that we could continue to advance tremulous through computer science.
and yes, i am entertaining. myself far more than any of you, really. shit, you think i'd do this shit if i didnt gain something from it?
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What I find strange is that there is so much discussion about ballance while (as far as I know) there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.
I agree. There's little point discussing balance changes simply because
1) Major gameplay changes (not balance related!) will eventually be implemented.
2) We lack the necessary data to make an informed decision. We need more players before we can make more balance changes.
The only thing I've picked up so far in this discussion is that pounce knock back is bad in most situations and might be worthwhile removing.
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We lack the necessary data to make an informed decision.
and that shows your method of balance design: pure trial and error.
We need more players before we can make more balance changes.
what you'll get is a bunch of n00bs, who will see one set of balance changes balanced. then, armed with "necessary data", that set of balance changes will be applied, and the game will a product for n00bs. professional players will still see the game as an utter piece of shit.
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and that shows your method of balance design: pure trial and error.
No, information about how people play a game allows us to make an informed decision about what needs changing. If a certain item is not bought often (eg flamer 1.1) then that suggests that there are issues with that item. If we have a lot of players complaining about a certain game element being cheap/OP/UP/unfun (unfun is the opposite of fun. It actually removes 'fun' from the game) then we may have to rethink that game element. I am not saying that we should look at a graph and say "humans only win 45% of the time. Lets reduce cost of lasgun". Data about how people and what they enjoy doing allows us to properly balance and design a game. You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.
I would like to state very clearly that data only informs it does not make decisions. Decisions are what developers do. With more data developers can make better decisions. Without any data then it's extremely hard to make good decisions. It's quite easy to make a lot of guesses however.
We need more players before we can make more balance changes.
what you'll get is a bunch of n00bs, who will see one set of balance changes balanced. then, armed with "necessary data", that set of balance changes will be applied, and the game will a product for n00bs. professional players will still see the game as an utter piece of shit.
I think you're twisting my words here. At no point did I say that we should balance around public games or that public games should even be our main focus when balancing. High level organised games are the most important games to balance for. They're the people who care about balance the most and their games are where balance makes the most difference. There is a difference between the goals and rewards a player experiences when playing competitively compared to playing casually. These goals are however not mutually exclusive and often overlap. Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.
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and that shows your method of balance design: pure trial and error.
No, information about how people play a game allows us to make an informed decision about what needs changing. If a certain item is not bought often (eg flamer 1.1) then that suggests that there are issues with that item. If we have a lot of players complaining about a certain game element being cheap/OP/UP/unfun (unfun is the opposite of fun. It actually removes 'fun' from the game) then we may have to rethink that game element. I am not saying that we should look at a graph and say "humans only win 45% of the time. Lets reduce cost of lasgun". Data about how people and what they enjoy doing allows us to properly balance and design a game.
in other words, trial and error.
You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.
however, your stance towards being able to roughly theory-craft the balance of a complex game disgusts me.
We need more players before we can make more balance changes.
what you'll get is a bunch of n00bs, who will see one set of balance changes balanced. then, armed with "necessary data", that set of balance changes will be applied, and the game will a product for n00bs. professional players will still see the game as an utter piece of shit.
At no point did I say that we should balance around public games or that public games should even be our main focus when balancing. High level organised games are the most important games to balance for. They're the people who care about balance the most and their games are where balance makes the most difference.
yet there are not even enough players to do testing, let alone high-level games. out of a simple "wait-for-more-players campaign", the first players that you'll get will be n00bs. it will be some time before you have a broad selection of players.
Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.
which is almost exactly what i'm saying.
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in other words, trial and error.
What I described was not trial and error. To put it simply what I said was that data would allow us to identify flaws or issues with the game. We will of course be monitoring and correcting any balance changes we make. To call this 'pure trial and error' is, intentionally or not, misleading.
You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.
however, your stance towards being able to roughly theory-craft the balance of a complex game disgusts me.
What exactly do you think my stance is and why does it disgust you? I can not have a discussion with you if you simply make statements and do not try to explain your reasoning.
yet there are not even enough players to do testing, let alone high-level games. out of a simple "wait-for-more-players campaign", the first players that you'll get will be n00bs. it will be some time before you have a broad selection of players.
We can wait. There is no need to engage in high levels of balancing early on. It's quite possible to simply work on gameplay, ensuring that the game is fun to play, early on and later when there is actual competitive matches to begin proper balancing. There will of course need to be some balancing done but this can mainly be targeted at major issues. There is no need for fine balancing at the early stages of a game's development. Good balance easier to achieve then good gameplay after all.
Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.
which is almost exactly what i'm saying.
No, you haven't actually explained your position regarding game balance/game design. I would be very interested in it however.
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god, you both are ass-backwards. you design the base game around public play, and release a competitively balanced mod. you WANT to attract newbies. you want them to learn your game, and then enter the competitive scene. if you havent seen the state of the tremulous community, there are precious few "professional" players. you need new players.
The only thing I've picked up so far in this discussion is that pounce knock back is bad in most situations and might be worthwhile removing.
interesting idea, a baby step to rectifying the horrible damage done to the goon. now, to make up for the rest, nerf pounce all the way down, remove all knockback, remove chomp delay from pounce, allow chomps while charging pounce, and amp up chomp damage so that a goon+ oneshots a human with a helmet.
or, just put pounce back to the way it was.
and unnerf trample. nerf it again when you remove human movement exploits that avoid trample damage.
remove poison immunity after medkit use. this nerf makes my horseshitometer explode. it is just too much horse shit. it's just stupid. i mean, fuck. what the hell? shit.
in closing, you say you cannot balance without players.... again i postulate that you lack players because you lack balance.
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in other words, trial and error.
What I described was not trial and error. To put it simply what I said was that data would allow us to identify flaws or issues with the game. We will of course be monitoring and correcting any balance changes we make. To call this 'pure trial and error' is, intentionally or not, misleading.
point out the differences between what you perceive as "trial and error" and "making balance changes, testing them, and correcting any (or just some) detected flaws/errors".
You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.
however, your stance towards being able to roughly theory-craft the balance of a complex game disgusts me.
What exactly do you think my stance is and why does it disgust you? I can not have a discussion with you if you simply make statements and do not try to explain your reasoning.
your disgusting stance is that you do not believe that balance can be roughly crafted in theory. (i have just repeated myself.) but it's actually just that some players see the bullshit in some of the balance changes, just by hearing about them.
yet there are not even enough players to do testing, let alone high-level games. out of a simple "wait-for-more-players campaign", the first players that you'll get will be n00bs. it will be some time before you have a broad selection of players.
We can wait. There is no need to engage in high levels of balancing early on. It's quite possible to simply work on gameplay, ensuring that the game is fun to play, early on and later when there is actual competitive matches to begin proper balancing. There will of course need to be some balancing done but this can mainly be targeted at major issues. There is no need for fine balancing at the early stages of a game's development.
as a result, trial and error (or whatever you call your process of achieving balance) will only come S00N(TM). (and until then, little can be done in that regard.) do you believe that said S00N(TM) will come in time (ie., whether the "final stages" of the game development will ever exist in practice)?
Good balance easier to achieve then good gameplay after all.
that's arguable. do you have any idea on how the "properness" of balance affects fun?
Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.
which is almost exactly what i'm saying.
No, you haven't actually explained your position regarding game balance/game design. I would be very interested in it however.
no noes.
also, as for the irrelevant sub-sub-topic that you've brought up: if by "position" you mean work (as a designer), then i do not have any such position in TremZ/Unvanquished.
god, you both are ass-backwards.
on the other hand, you are ass-forward, assface !
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point out the differences between what you perceive as "trial and error" and "making balance changes, testing them, and correcting any (or just some) detected flaws/errors".
'Pure trial and error' is simply making changes without knowing the likely results of that action. What I proposed was the use of theory to guide decisions. Yes, game design has elements of trial and error however it is not and should not be 'pure trial and error'. I have never said that my proposed method did not contain trial and error methodologies however describing an object which contains many elements as only being one particular element is misleading.
What exactly do you think my stance is and why does it disgust you? I can not have a discussion with you if you simply make statements and do not try to explain your reasoning.
your disgusting stance is that you do not believe that balance can be roughly crafted in theory. (i have just repeated myself.) but it's actually just that some players see the bullshit in some of the balance changes, just by hearing about them.
You've just clarified your position! While it's certainly possible to some extent to roughly theory craft balance for a complex game ( eg you wouldn't give a dretch 200 health) it becomes pretty much impossible as the game gets closer to achieving a high level of balance. I shouldn't have said balance as it is ambiguous.I should have instead said a 'high level of balance'.
as a result, trial and error (or whatever you call your process of achieving balance) will only come S00N(TM). (and until then, little can be done in that regard.) do you believe that said S00N(TM) will come in time (ie., whether the "final stages" of the game development will ever exist in practice)?
I believe that it will occur as gameplay becomes finalised and competitive play emerges. I am not advocating for no gameplay design at all. I am instead advocating that gameplay design instead of balance be our primary concern.
Good balance easier to achieve then good gameplay after all.
that's arguable. do you have any idea on how the "properness" of balance affects fun?
That's a good point and I agree that when balance starts to remove choice then that's a problem. However I don't believe that our current level of balance causes significant issues. There are far more pressing issues (camping, feeding, levels, menus, viable choices in weapons/aliens, etc) then balance at the moment.
also, as for the irrelevant sub-sub-topic that you've brought up: if by "position" you mean work (as a designer), then i do not have any such position in TremZ/Unvanquished.
I meant position as in what is your opinion?
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What I proposed was the use of theory to guide decisions.
ie., advised trial and error.
There are far more pressing issues (camping, feeding, levels, menus, viable choices in weapons/aliens, etc) then balance at the moment.
and what is your stance towards being able to craft fixes for these issues in theory?
PS: fix the quoting in your last post.
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on the other hand, you are ass-forward, assface !
of course i am.
that does not diminish the truths i have revealed to you.
your disgusting stance is that you do not believe that balance can be roughly crafted in theory. (i have just repeated myself.) but it's actually just that some players see the bullshit in some of the balance changes, just by hearing about them.
i cant help but quote this. i read that as basically "some people have heard about the poison immunity..."
if there is anything unvanquished can be said to have done, it is to force me to forever associate the word "bullshit" with "poison immunity"
and danmal, you've never answered... i was not rhetorically asking. i really want to know what you guys were thinking. i mean, did the whole dev team have a "meet-up-and-smoke-as-much-crack-as-you-can" party or something? if you do nothing else for me, find out what they were thinking. i always wondered what it must be like to be a raving lunatic, so if you could please share some insight, i would be grateful.
it should show you something that i can talk about pounce till im blue in the face, but poison immunity gets me to sputtering and making incoherent noises.
i mean, SHIT. i find it very hard not to be insulting in reference to this particular bullet on the changelog. i cannot see how anyone, even a habitual human player, would think that this is a good idea, and is what needed to happen. did you guys happen to make ultra random virus lead dev when i wasent looking or something?
furthermore, danmal, if changing tha balance is not important as gameplay itself is getting a major overhaul "soon", why in heaven's holy fuck did you guys dick around with the balance in the first place? just to have shit on the changelog? i mean fuck, why even waste time with that bullshit? do you guys even have a written plan of action, or are you making up bullshit as you go along, because it sure as heel looks to be the case.
please, enlighten me. perhaps the answer is really obvious, i just cannot see it. somehow i doubt this is the case.
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the truths i have revealed to you.
that you have no idea what a real number is.
it is to force me to forever associate the word "bullshit" with "poison immunity"
/buy bullshit
/itemact bullshit
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the truths i have revealed to you.
that you have no idea what a real number is.
let me rephrase, "...arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you...."
it is to force me to forever associate the word "bullshit" with "poison immunity"
/buy bullshit
/itemact bullshit
???
how to buy medkit?
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arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you
ie.?
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arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you
ie.?
see every "on topic" post of mine this thread.
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arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you
ie.?
see every "on topic" post of mine this thread.
ie., that you have no idea what a real number is.
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arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you
ie.?
see every "on topic" post of mine this thread.
ie., that you have no idea what a real number is.
real number bullshit == your strawman.
dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.
it would take far less time than me summarizing.
as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.
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real number bullshit == your strawman.
dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.
it would take far less time than me summarizing.
as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.
that this thread contains important facts revealed to me (other than the fact that you don't know what a real number is) == your bullshit.
this thread contains full proof that you have a monkey wrench embedded in your asshole. however, as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you find the proof.
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real number bullshit == your strawman.
dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.
it would take far less time than me summarizing.
as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.
that this thread contains important facts revealed to me (other than the fact that you don't know what a real number is) == your bullshit.
this thread contains full proof that you have a monkey wrench embedded in your asshole. however, as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you find the proof.
ah, peer dismissal. dismally common on the internet. do you use a random number generator system to decide on which fallacy you will craft your response from each post?
in retrospect, it makes no difference if you understand my message or not. you are not involved in the development of either project, correct?
it has been fun despite your reliance on "bad debate". it is easy to look past that as i have never encountered anybody who fulfills the archetype of "snobbish programmer" so well. it is truly a spectacle to behold.
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real number bullshit == your strawman.
dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.
it would take far less time than me summarizing.
as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.
that this thread contains important facts revealed to me (other than the fact that you don't know what a real number is) == your bullshit.
this thread contains full proof that you have a monkey wrench embedded in your asshole. however, as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you find the proof.
ah, peer dismissal.
no, rethoric.
you are not involved in the development of either project, correct?
WRONG.
it has been fun despite your reliance on "bad debate". it is easy to look past that as i have never encountered anybody who fulfills the archetype of "snobbish programmer" so well. it is truly a spectacle to behold.
i have no idea what you've just said, but it sounds retarded.
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you are not involved in the development of either project, correct?
WRONG.
also, as for the irrelevant sub-sub-topic that you've brought up: if by "position" you mean work (as a designer), then i do not have any such position in TremZ/Unvanquished
forgot your machine logic. i assumed you would understand that as the brunt of the discussion has been balance, you'd infer the clause "as a designer" into "not involved in either project."
why should i care if a mapper or modeler do not agree with or even understand my complaints? they do not make the decisions in the area that matters to me.
well, maybe the modeler, if he's going to replace those godaweful alien models they are using.
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ie., advised trial and error.
Yes, 'pure trial and error' implies something quite different however.
There are far more pressing issues (camping, feeding, levels, menus, viable choices in weapons/aliens, etc) then balance at the moment.
and what is your stance towards being able to craft fixes for these issues in theory?
There's a lot more theory in game design but there's still iterative design/feedback/guided trial and error. The advantage that we have now is that gameplay between Unvanquished and GPP/1.1 is pretty much the same. The major issues are still there and we have a lot of experience with those issues (years for some players). They're also apparent to new players as well. It only takes a few games to realise that camping isn't fun or that dying is extremely punishing. We don't need competitive players to solve most of these issues.
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It only takes a few games to realise that camping isn't fun
it only takes 1 d00d to find a big pile of bullshit in the game, and that pile apparently isn't moving any time S00N(TM).
We don't need competitive players to solve most of these issues.
in fact, you don't need many players at all, just proper thinking design-wise.
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It only takes a few games to realise that camping isn't fun or that dying is extremely punishing.
???
why medkit poison immunity?
that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times. that means camping.
that means dretches will die a lot more. that is death that is punishing.
nerf pounce buff chomp means more corner/door camping goons.
why unvanq design game against their own development philosophy???
again, why change anything at all when "big gameplay changes are coming soon that will funlily these changes and require a whole lot of balance changes on their own"?
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why medkit poison immunity?
that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times. that means camping.
Huh? How on Earth boosting "mobile healing means" encourage people to use more "stationary healing means"?
nerf pounce buff chomp means more corner/door camping goons.
There's already corner camping going on, along with pounce spam which is f***ing annoying. Also, with dodge (even one per 5 sec or so) corner camping is not as effective as it used to be.
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why medkit poison immunity?
that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times. that means camping.
Huh? How on Earth boosting "mobile healing means" encourage people to use more "stationary healing means"?
nerf pounce buff chomp means more corner/door camping goons.
There's already corner camping going on, along with pounce spam which is f***ing annoying. Also, with dodge (even one per 5 sec or so) corner camping is not as effective as it used to be.
1. i get bitten. i pop a medkit. i run back to base to get another.
2. the fact that there is already is camping does nothing to invalidate the statement that the change encourages camping.
your opinion of pounce has no bearing on this subject. you disliking pounce spam does not equate to nerfing pounce discouraging camping.
the effectiveness of cornercamping is not under question. the fact is that the change encourages it more.
furthermore, you cherrypicked your quote.
what about punishing dretches? why change anything at all?
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1. That's exactly what people are doing already, if anything, with poison immunity there would probably be not-as-much of a need to retreat after using the medkit.
furthermore, you cherrypicked your quote.
Not really. Your post
"medkit poison immunity" => "encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times." => "camping." => "dretches will die a lot more"
Since the second one makes no sense and in my humble opinion is false WRONG then the third one is also false which makes fourth one false as well.
2. You said that "nerf pounce buff chomp" => "more camping". Actually, there would be just as much camping. Also, compared to 1.1, it's not as big issue. Goon changes, as I understand them, were not meant to "fix" anything in that matter - they were meant to stop the pounce spam (which IS a big issue) and encourage to use chomp more. I think it's a good thing.
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why medkit poison immunity?
that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times. that means camping.
1. i get bitten. i pop a medkit. i run back to base to get another.
Pre-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Better run back to the medistation before the poison kills me!"
After-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Wait... I am not poisoned! Now I can continue my attack on the alien base! Yay!
I got bitten again and now I AM poisoned! Balls!
Better run back to the medistation before the poison kills me!"
Why are people so angry about this? I fail to see how this is in any way as gamebreaking as some of you claim it is.
Just for perspective, according to my sources, 1.1 gives you a 30 second poison immunity (http://tremulous.net/wiki/Medkit), GPP gives you none (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0) and Unvanquished gives you 2 seconds(as of alpha 1). (http://tremz.com/community/showthread.php?tid=238)
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why medkit poison immunity?
that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times. that means camping.
1. i get bitten. i pop a medkit. i run back to base to get another.
Pre-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Better run back to the medistation before the poison kills me!"
After-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Wait... I am not poisoned! Now I can continue my attack on the alien base! Yay!
I got bitten again and now I AM poisoned! Balls!
Better run back to the medistation before the poison kills me!"
Why are people so angry about this? I fail to see how this is in any way as gamebreaking as some of you claim it is.
Just for perspective, according to my sources, 1.1 gives you a 30 second poison immunity (http://tremulous.net/wiki/Medkit), GPP gives you none (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0) and Unvanquished gives you 2 seconds(as of alpha 1). (http://tremz.com/community/showthread.php?tid=238)
nerf pounce and trample, nerf turrets, and poison immunity is also from 1.1?
and unvanq is not neo-1.1 how?
oh, and 2 seconds is forever in a fps. how many seconds does it take to fire 5 rifle shots? how many times do poison or bite cycle in two seconds?
wanna know why it is gamebreaking? past hs1 dretches NEED poison to get evos. any nerf to poison weakens the alien team as a whole and the dretch in specific.
without immunity, it is possible for the poison to kill the human running back for another medkit. without, you cannot, especially with infinisprint.
and it makes camping a base that much more effective.
Goon changes, as I understand them, were not meant to "fix" anything in that matter - they were meant to stop the pounce spam (which IS a big issue) and encourage to use chomp more. I think it's a good thing.
why is pouncespam a thing that needs to be changed?
hell, why is anything in your changelog something that needed to be changed? its a giant step back to 1.1, not moving forward as your project led me to believe.
but let's keep on track.... pouncespam. why should chomp be used more? because it is bound to mouse1 by default? because it is easier to escape chomp than it is pounce? what is your resoning, because i can flip your logic around in so many different ways it is not even funny.
".... encourages the use of the blaster..."
"... encourages the use of luci primary fire over secondary ... "
"...encourages MDs to zoom..."
just connect each of those phrases to some stupid and pointless change and there you go.
hey, i have an idea, you guys should change your name again, somehow incorporate "xserver" into your project name... this way everyone will know to expect bullshit and not a serious game.
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Pounce currently in GPP is quite effective. Too effective. You pounce someone to corner, and you get frag without much effort, even battlesuit goes down when you pouncespam.
Yes, I see there is load of fun in that.
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If anything, I find the medkit change a help to newbies. More experienced players know that when you are fighting against poisoning dretch, the worst thing you can do is to use medkit right after being poisoned, because you will most likely get poisoned again. New players don't know about that. They die more -> game is less fun for them. After all, it's JUST DAMN 2 SECONDS NOT FOREVER.
why is pouncespam a thing that needs to be changed?
Because I believe that, at the very least, pounce should be used "in parallel to" not "as replacement of" chomp. Just imagine if luci secondary shot had splash damage and dealt half as much dmg as the fully charged blast. That's basically what happened to goon.
In 1.1, chomp is far superior to pounce.
In GPP, pounce is superior to chomp.
In Unv, I'd like to see balance between these two.
As for your "neo-1.1" babbling. GPP introduced quite a lot changes. The fact that it's "newer" doesn't mean that it's "better" all the way. Many players far more skilled than you and me have complained about the issues that were fixed with the changes introduced in Unv.
Also, you can see if/how much these changes suck in-game with bots. Then judge the changes (if you remember, many people were saying GPP changes are simply retarded just until they played the game).
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Pre-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Better run back to the medistation before the poison kills me!"
After-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Wait... I am not poisoned! Now I can continue my attack on the alien base! Yay!
I got bitten again and now I AM poisoned! Balls!
Better run back to the medistation before the poison kills me!"
Pre-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health while camping in front of my base, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Better run back to camp at the medistation in the next room before the poison kills me!"
After-Medkit changes:
"Oh, I lost a good chunk of health while camping in front of my base, better use a medkit!
Oh balls, I got bitten by a dretch and now I am poisoned!
Wait... I am not poisoned! Now I can continue my attack on the alien base camping with maximum efficiency for a bit longer! Yay!
I got bitten again and now I AM poisoned! Balls!
Better run back to camp at the medistation in the next room before the poison kills me!"
Just for perspective, according to my sources, 1.1 gives you a 30 second poison immunity (http://tremulous.net/wiki/Medkit), GPP gives you none (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0) and Unvanquished gives you 2 seconds(as of alpha 1). (http://tremz.com/community/showthread.php?tid=238)
only 2? well, that doesn't completely lick my balls. my bullshit meter was notched at "RED ALERT !", thinking that poison immunity was programmed to last for 30 seconds, now the meter is just at "ALERT !".
I find the medkit change a help to newbies
...and a frustration to experienced players.
this is to be coupled with the fact that almost always, a person is a newbie for a short, initial period, but then becomes experienced and remains experienced for a long gaming lifetime.
There is no need to engage in high levels of balancing early on. It's quite possible to simply work on gameplay, ensuring that the game is fun to play
you're not doing anything in that regard.
let's continue by brainstorming ideas about dragoon/cataphract(TM) revamps. mine is:
chomping does relatively high damage, while pouncing does relatively low damage. pounce has a relatively high knockaway effect, while chomping has a slight pullback effect. furthermore, players can hold an inflicted chomp attack for a short time and the pull on the target during that time, while dealing a little more damage. essentially, an inflicted chomp attack works as a light, electronic magnet, which has a diminishing electricity feed based on the length of the held chomp, where the length is either short or long. both players suffer from magnetic attraction, based on the movement force yielded by both players, but a dragoon has a stronger movement force than a human in light armor (but not necessarily stronger than that of a human in a battlesuit).
then, on paper, dragoons would have the following properties:
short (non-held) chomp attacks would be the primitive, general-purpose attacks for dealing with humans while being alone. longer (held) chomp attacks would not deal so significant amount of damage, but would have the primary purpose of slowing down humans, to allow other alien players to attack the humans more easily, but also to pull humans off ledge edges.
pouncing humans would generally not be useful to deal damage, but
- to push humans into "danger zones", ie.,
- map areas where humans receive environmental damage, such as burning pits (on applicable maps), or
- kill zones, where the alien team has a locally increased ease to eliminate a human (such as an area with lots of static alien defences);
- as a tool to aid escaping or to delay enemy attacks, to push humans far away, possibly down to lower map levels; and
- of course, for locomotion (as an irrelevant side-effect).
a few interesting scenarios:
- a dragoon, flying at high speeds, chomp-grabs a human at his side, to pull the human in some direction, possibly after that human just evaded a planned pounce-push attack.
- a dragoon guards a plank-over-a-pit route to the alien base.
- a team of aliens mow down a human just outside the human base, while the dragoon hinders the human's ability to escape.
- a dragoon pulls a human, who is standing just outside the alien base, inside the base, allowing the alien defences to deal damage to the human.
- a dragoon pounces against a human downwards, causing the human to take falling damage as well.
this stupid forum sux @ parsing nested lists[/list][/list]
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If anything, I find the medkit change a help to newbies. More experienced players know that when you are fighting against poisoning dretch, the worst thing you can do is to use medkit right after being poisoned, because you will most likely get poisoned again. New players don't know about that. They die more -> game is less fun for them. After all, it's JUST DAMN 2 SECONDS NOT FOREVER.
why is pouncespam a thing that needs to be changed?
Because I believe that, at the very least, pounce should be used "in parallel to" not "as replacement of" chomp. Just imagine if luci secondary shot had splash damage and dealt half as much dmg as the fully charged blast. That's basically what happened to goon.
In 1.1, chomp is far superior to pounce.
In GPP, pounce is superior to chomp.
In Unv, I'd like to see balance between these two.
As for your "neo-1.1" babbling. GPP introduced quite a lot changes. The fact that it's "newer" doesn't mean that it's "better" all the way. Many players far more skilled than you and me have complained about the issues that were fixed with the changes introduced in Unv.
Also, you can see if/how much these changes suck in-game with bots. Then judge the changes (if you remember, many people were saying GPP changes are simply retarded just until they played the game).
a few things.
skill != validity.
i HAVE tested your changes. with real players. on the official server. they suck fucking ass.
wanna know why pounce is being used more than chomp? because it is movement. if chomp propelled me around at 1100 ups, i'd use it a hell of a lot more often.
chomp is not used as much because of the delay and human mobility.
as i have said several times in this thread.
you walk towards the human (cant pounce, you'll knock him out of range and you'll have to deal with that timer!) eating bullets, while the human sprints/ dodges away... shooting you. most likely with a buddy.
so what am i going to do? walk towards him chomping and hoping that unlagged will work in my favor and give me a 40 foot chomp range, or do i pounce him to death?
luci does not compare, it is s3, goon is s1. how about we change the chaingun. because people arent using it as intended or some shit. the new chaingun will disable running for humans. they can only walk. furthermore, it fires 5 rounds a second, at 6 damage a round.
there
that's your dragoon-chaingun. the chaingun nerfed like a dragoon.
wanna make the medkit more newbie friendly? prevent popping one within two seconds of being poisoned. there. now you dont have to worry about stupid newbies using their medikits too soon and being poisoned.
or you can make a random tip of the day loading screen that fucking tells newbies to not pop their fucking medikits so soon and not fuck around with something that is only barely not broken as it is.
in closing, if players better than i applaud your idiotic changes, that is nice. perhaps, unlike me, they will play your bullshit. still, it is the most amazing thing that even though these awesome players like your changes, YOUR server is empty almost constantly, while us1 gpp is active 24 hours a day most days.
could it be that no one is really interested in playing your garbage because everything you've done so far, with the sole exception of getting tremulous to load in an updated engine, is complete and utter horseshit?
oh wait, it was those other guys who actually got it working in openwolf, huh? bummer. that means you guys have done really jack dick.
hold on, give me a few hours to make some random, pointless changes to tremulous.h, call it balance, and release. i shall be the best developer.
snip
hey, actual concepts, refreshing. i like the idea, though id actually reduce damage on the chomp, and lower the repeat more. it would be especially awesome if you could latch on, then pounce, slingshotting the human away in an arc.
even without, that is a really neat idea. adding onto it, it would be quite fun to use chomp as a point-blank grappling hook..... stay stuck to walls so long as you hold the bind.
Pounce currently in GPP is quite effective. Too effective. You pounce someone to corner, and you get frag without much effort, even battlesuit goes down when you pouncespam.
Yes, I see there is load of fun in that.
i'f i'm spending 3-4 evos for a goon, is it not unreasonable to expect kills?
furthermore, it is the biggest alien next to rant, why shouldent it be able to fight bsuits?
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I find the medkit change a help to newbies
...and a frustration to experienced players.
this is to be coupled with the fact that almost always, a person is a newbie for a short, initial period, but then becomes experienced and remains experienced for a long gaming lifetime.
That is true, though I'd rather frustrate experienced players by making newbies a little bit harder to kill and, at the same time, making the game less frustrating for newbies by reducing the threat of dying a little, little bit (but still). I really doubt 2 second immunity will change current most-optimal tactic of using medkit to heal poison after fight. You will never be sure if you kill that dretch, and if you do... It still doesn't make much difference if you use the medkit 2 seconds later. Poison immunity would be a significant change if it was 5 or 10 seconds long.
As for you RAKninja-Decepticon - please, read my post again. Then your post. Repeat few times. Maybe you will then spot all those retarded bits you've written. I'm not going to point them out for you.
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could it be that no one is really interested in playing your garbage because everything you've done so far, with the sole exception of getting tremulous to load in an updated engine, is complete and utter horseshit?
oh wait, it was those other guys who actually got it working in openwolf, huh? bummer. that means you guys have done really jack dick.
hold on, give me a few hours to make some random, pointless changes to tremulous.h, call it balance, and release. i shall be the best developer.
troll harder ಠ_ಠ
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Pounce currently in GPP is quite effective. Too effective. You pounce someone to corner, and you get frag without much effort, even battlesuit goes down when you pouncespam.
Yes, I see there is load of fun in that.
i'f i'm spending 3-4 evos for a goon, is it not unreasonable to expect kills?
furthermore, it is the biggest alien next to rant, why shouldent it be able to fight bsuits?
Then I got suggestion:
How about making pounce primary then? If not, then you should develop something better. You know all the stuff, I bet you can make it waaayyyy better than others.
you walk towards the human (cant pounce, you'll knock him out of range and you'll have to deal with that timer!) eating bullets, while the human sprints/ dodges away... shooting you. most likely with a buddy.
so what am i going to do? walk towards him chomping and hoping that unlagged will work in my favor and give me a 40 foot chomp range, or do i pounce him to death?
If you can't utilize the every aspects of class/weapon, then you should either train to use it properly or not to use it at all.
After all, not my problem how you deal with them. Being tactical in FPS is not illegal, anyway.
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nerf pounce and trample, nerf turrets, and poison immunity is also from 1.1?
You apparently didn't have a problem with poison immunity in 1.1 in wich it lasted 30(!!) seconds. No mention, not even a quick search though the forums showed people raving on about how 30 seconds is ridiculous, I think no-one really noticed it was even there, why is it a problem now?
without immunity, it is possible for the poison to kill the human running back for another medkit. without, you cannot, especially with infinisprint.
If you know a little bit about strave jumping, the sprint isn't really that much of a problem.
I do think they overdone it with the sprint though.
I'll rather see changes to the basilisk. It is good that the basi got a bigger role in the game, but I feel that the grab takes way too long. Talk about 2 seconds; if a naked human is grabbed by a basilisk it takes about 10 seconds before the basi is able to kill him. In that time the poor human can do fuck all. I often spend that time flailing my mouse around and meshing buttons hoping I can get away... but it's futile.
Now, having to wait 10 seconds before you die, with nothing you can do to stop it, now that grinds my gears.
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That is true, though I'd rather frustrate experienced players by making newbies a little bit harder to kill and, at the same time, making the game less frustrating for newbies by reducing the threat of dying a little, little bit (but still). I really doubt 2 second immunity will change current most-optimal tactic of using medkit to heal poison after fight. You will never be sure if you kill that dretch, and if you do... It still doesn't make much difference if you use the medkit 2 seconds later. Poison immunity would be a significant change if it was 5 or 10 seconds long.
As for you RAKninja-Decepticon - please, read my post again. Then your post. Repeat few times. Maybe you will then spot all those retarded bits you've written. I'm not going to point them out for you.
logic flaw. you think newbies will only play human, and/or that human newbies are the only ones deserving of assistance. what about the dretches you just nerfed with your bullshit poison immunity?
poison immunity, for ANY length of time is bullshit. if it does not matter so much, remove it.
sorry, reading your post and then mine only shows me the holes in your logic. and that you refuse to answer the most glaring questions of all.
troll harder ಠ_ಠ
ok.
Then I got suggestion:
How about making pounce primary then? If not, then you should develop something better. You know all the stuff, I bet you can make it waaayyyy better than others.
If you can't utilize the every aspects of class/weapon, then you should either train to use it properly or not to use it at all.
After all, not my problem how you deal with them. Being tactical in FPS is not illegal, anyway.
sure. you dont even need to do that, just make a bind that switches mouse 1 and 2 when you evo to goon.
also, the "you do better" argument is a strawman. we are not talking about my hypothetical mods or my "skill" as a dev. we are talking about unvanq and the bullshit that comprises it. furthermore, i have better things to develop than some mod for a dying game that no one will play.
your closing statement is hilarious. rather than address anything about the game, you again attack me and my abilities (or lack thereof) as a player. you are so intent on doing this, you fail to notice your argument applies equally to pounce as it does chomp.
You apparently didn't have a problem with poison immunity in 1.1 in wich it lasted 30(!!) seconds. No mention, not even a quick search though the forums showed people raving on about how 30 seconds is ridiculous, I think no-one really noticed it was even there, why is it a problem now?
If you know a little bit about strave jumping, the sprint isn't really that much of a problem.
I do think they overdone it with the sprint though.
I'll rather see changes to the basilisk. It is good that the basi got a bigger role in the game, but I feel that the grab takes way too long. Talk about 2 seconds; if a naked human is grabbed by a basilisk it takes about 10 seconds before the basi is able to kill him. In that time the poor human can do fuck all. I often spend that time flailing my mouse around and meshing buttons hoping I can get away... but it's futile.
Now, having to wait 10 seconds before you die, with nothing you can do to stop it, now that grinds my gears.
i was not a forum member in 1.1, and other "balance" features drove me away. gpp is much better, thank you. were i here at that time, i'd have been raising holy hell about that poison immunity.
strafejump requires 2-3 jumps to get to a decent speed (unless you're good at circlejumping from a dead stop.... ) why dick with that when i can get 1100 ups AND a good chunk of damage from pounce? you know, that move that is supposed to make up for my lack of wallwalk as a goon.
basi - ummmmmm. wow. really?
you're not kidding or being sarcastic?
a basi can kill a naked human in 2 swipes. that is much less than 2 seconds, let alone 10. if you are getting killed like this, it is either a bad basi, or an incredibly good one who is just showing off.
furthermore there are many "tricks" dealing with escaping basigrab.
and finally, what are you doing alone, so that a basi can get your back unopposed?
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strafejump requires 2-3 jumps to get to a decent speed (unless you're good at circlejumping from a dead stop.... ) why dick with that when i can get 1100 ups AND a good chunk of damage from pounce? you know, that move that is supposed to make up for my lack of wallwalk as a goon.
True, but I was actually talking about the Dretch. Because when you are a dretch, stravejumping is more than helpful.
basi - ummmmmm. wow. really?
you're not kidding or being sarcastic?
a basi can kill a naked human in 2 swipes. that is much less than 2 seconds, let alone 10. if you are getting killed like this, it is either a bad basi, or an incredibly good one who is just showing off.
furthermore there are many "tricks" dealing with escaping basigrab.
and finally, what are you doing alone, so that a basi can get your back unopposed?
They are sneaky bastards them basilisks.
Yes, they can kill you in 2 swipes, but then the human can get away if he is lucky. Better to stab him in his pinky toe till he bleeds to death so they can get a sure kill.
I have no problems with a basi grabbing me and killing me in 2 seconds, not at all, but I hate being stabbed in the pinky toe and held there, for 10 full seconds, till I bleed out.
The problem is that the time the basilisk can hold a naked human is far too long, especially in consideration that a basi can kill a naked human within 2 seconds.
If you could just get away after 5 seconds a player (like me) could stand a chance. Ofcouse, a good basi could just as easily slip behind you and grab you again, but then I'm ok with that, because I at least had a chance.
Also, could you enlighten me on some of the ways to escape the basigrab then? I know of the jetpack one (though it never worked on me) and that crouching could release you(though it never worked on me, and I tried, believe me, I tried.)
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strafejump requires 2-3 jumps to get to a decent speed (unless you're good at circlejumping from a dead stop.... ) why dick with that when i can get 1100 ups AND a good chunk of damage from pounce? you know, that move that is supposed to make up for my lack of wallwalk as a goon.
True, but I was actually talking about the Dretch. Because when you are a dretch, stravejumping is more than helpful.
basi - ummmmmm. wow. really?
you're not kidding or being sarcastic?
a basi can kill a naked human in 2 swipes. that is much less than 2 seconds, let alone 10. if you are getting killed like this, it is either a bad basi, or an incredibly good one who is just showing off.
furthermore there are many "tricks" dealing with escaping basigrab.
and finally, what are you doing alone, so that a basi can get your back unopposed?
They are sneaky bastards them basilisks.
Yes, they can kill you in 2 swipes, but then the human can get away if he is lucky. Better to stab him in his pinky toe till he bleeds to death so they can get a sure kill.
I have no problems with a basi grabbing me and killing me in 2 seconds, not at all, but I hate being stabbed in the pinky toe and held there, for 10 full seconds, till I bleed out.
The problem is that the time the basilisk can hold a naked human is far too long, especially in consideration that a basi can kill a naked human within 2 seconds.
If you could just get away after 5 seconds a player (like me) could stand a chance. Ofcouse, a good basi could just as easily slip behind you and grab you again, but then I'm ok with that, because I at least had a chance.
Also, could you enlighten me on some of the ways to escape the basigrab then? I know of the jetpack one (though it never worked on me) and that crouching could release you(though it never worked on me, and I tried, believe me, I tried.)
you did not preface your statement to be about dretches. we were talking about poison in general. and mostly goons/pounce.
"bleeding out" is a dumb move in most situations. mainly because you can never be sure that some other human is not about to turn the corner and kill you.
wanna know how to avoid basigrab? use a shotty, jack up sensitivity, and jerk the mouse hard while firing at the apex of your turn. the "safe spot" is exceedingly small, and you can usually at least force the basi to disengage with a few pellet hits, if you do not outright make a kill. or get any other AoE type weapon and shoot the ground. humans soak up human damage better than pre-mara aliens.
ducking works on basis that grab the head. if they are grabbing the toes, jump/dodge more. roll your face on the keyboard if you are grabbed, you need but a single frame of freedom to escape. NEVER. LEAVE. THE. BASE. ALONE. most basis cannot ambush two players and kill one.
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you did not preface your statement to be about dretches. we were talking about poison in general. and mostly goons/pounce.
Sorry for that. :-[
Ill be sure to try out some of those tips, thanks!
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Why is everyone so frakking upset about changes? Make a mod after release. Call it whatever... like TremX and some of the other mods for Trem 1.1 Then you can have your cake and eat it too. And if no one likes the official changes, then your mod will be played and the official release will just be there as a base for your mod. I just solved everyone's problem. You can pay me later. :P
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official
(TM)
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wat?
Official meaning Unvanquished release; whatever. At one point, I'm pretty sure there were almost as many people or more playing TremX instead of 1.1 :p
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wat?
Official meaning Unvanquished release
wat?
"official" should have been replaced with:
- controlled by the tyrants dominating tremulous.net (or u***********.net), or
- OFFICIAL(TM), masking the definition just above.
explanation: the game (or that other game) is developed by the community for the community. it pisses me off, when someone, either due to delusion or due to greed for power, claims to have something blessed from within "the closed doors of a company".
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...tremx...
I'm pretty sure there were almost as many people or more playing TremX instead of 1.1 :p
TremX is a 1.1 mod. Until a few years ago, where someone imported it into gpp but failed to get a mod server up dedicated for it.
I think you're talking about TremZ, by which their forums have almost lost hope. Go see for yourself, its pretty much dead silent.
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TremX is a 1.1 mod. Until a few years ago, where someone imported it into gpp but failed to get a mod server up dedicated for it.
I think you're talking about TremZ, by which their forums have almost lost hope. Go see for yourself, its pretty much dead silent.
??? I think he knows it's for 1.1 boyo...
TremX and some of the other mods for Trem 1.1
And there was a sizable portion of people playing TremX, maybe not as much as jr2 makes out, but still significant.
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Vaporware versus vaporware ... tremulous wins
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explanation: the game (or that other game) is developed by the community for the community. it pisses me off, when someone, either due to delusion or due to greed for power, claims to have something blessed from within "the closed doors of a company".
I see. Well, I always considered something released by a dev team (even if that team is one person) to be "official" -- basically, meaning the original release as intended by its author(s). After that, you can get all sorts of modifications, but those are mods. Unless you fork it. Like, for example, Trem 1.2gpp > TremZ (not to be confused with 1.1's TremX) and Unvanquished.
And yeah, it kinda irked me that TremX didn't get a 1.2 ded running, as I think that may have breathed a tiny little bit of life into Trem... maybe a last dying gasp, but hey, enjoy what you can get while you can get it.
I keep wondering when whoever pays for the Trem forums server space gets bored and this site goes dead. :(
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I always considered something released by a dev team (even if that team is one person) to be "official" -- basically, meaning the original release as intended by its author(s).
that is self-contradictory, with my explanation in mind. if the development team consists of 1 person, then a release can be called "official". if the development team is larger, but is still closed, then a release can be called "official" in most cases. generally, the more centralized the team is, the more applicable the term "official" is.
in the Tremulous case, the development team is an often-changing set of individuals (whom you can call the authors), and they don't have a common intent towards releasing, so a release that is posted on this site (tremulous.net) is the sole decision of "the tyrants of tremulous.net & svn.icculus.org/tremulous", and such releases are generally against the intent of many of the team members, and thus, "official" is the least applicable term for such.
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TremZ was supposed to be in honor to IabZ, I guess that's a pretty good reason to prefer TremZ :) .
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TremZ was supposed to be in honor to IabZ, I guess that's a pretty good reason to prefer TremZ :) .
I'd say developer's motivation and updates > your reason * 5.
The reason is because you won't get much players with the phrase 'to be in honor to'. Without players, online games aren't fun.
Ever tried playing multiplayer online COD by yourself? Or something similar like lol?
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I am not sure if I understand the nature of the thread, and I'm not naming any names; but I'm pretty sure you guys that are arguing completely derailed it. That's very annoying.
You probably are a huge portion of the truly active members, which is probably why you don't receive the banning for your continuing disruption, thread derailing and quote towers. So try not to abuse that please?
As for your arguing, you really should stop trying to argue the point in when the other party clearly doesn't understand you [doesn't want to understand you].
The question I ask myself now is, 'where do we go from here'?
Cron, are you asking us to give you input or is that just a rhetorical question?
and if so, your question is quite vague. So if you'd like to elaborate, I'm more than willing to reciprocate with an earnest answer.
So we heard unv's side, what's tremZ/Volt's side? Because Cron makes volt seem like a complete fucking asshole faggot. Which might not be the case.
Or, is this really the whole story and they are complete asshole faggots who decline to make a statement because they know they are in the wrong.
OR did cron just have first post which was unintentional by you whereas tremZ completely dropped the ball and didn't even write a thing here
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I am not sure if I understand the nature of the thread
this is the drama thread. it is for arguing, bitching, namecalling. you know, drama.
like this -
Currently Unv is almost same as GPP (couple of relatively minor changes: nerfed pounce and dodge, more stamina for humans, little boost to luci) with few new models and graphics improvements.
dodge was nerfed as a tradeoff for "infinisprint". you can sprint almost forever with UNV's bullshit. nerfed pounce was far from "relitivly minor" considering aliens got nerfed with almost every change introduced. the rest of the changes were human buffs, like the totally unnecessary luci buff.
oh and the "new art" is fugly as hell. and they STILL dont have alien choppers.
i find it amazing that you guys havent nerfed charge yet.
good job with the bots though, now just set it so that players are always human, and bots are always alien, and the game would almost be "balanced"
- see mew? that's what this thread is for.
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I am not sure if I understand the nature of the thread, and I'm not naming any names; but I'm pretty sure you guys that are arguing completely derailed it. That's very annoying.
You probably are a huge portion of the truly active members, which is probably why you don't receive the banning for your continuing disruption, thread derailing and quote towers. So try not to abuse that please?
As for your arguing, you really should stop trying to argue the point in when the other party clearly doesn't understand you [doesn't want to understand you].
So we heard unv's side, what's tremZ/Volt's side? Because Cron makes volt seem like a complete fucking asshole faggot. Which might not be the case.
Or, is this really the whole story and they are complete asshole faggots who decline to make a statement because they know they are in the wrong.
OR did cron just have first post which was unintentional by you whereas tremZ completely dropped the ball and didn't even write a thing here
At the time of creation of this thread off-topic had turned into a ping-pong match between both parties, with insults sprayed here and there. I chose to focus it all in this thread so the rest of off-topic would get breathing space again. Not to resolve an issue.
I do not particularly care who 'wins' this, or if everyone gets an even chance. I cannot force one group to show up or the other to be less active.
As for not banning. The thread is not actually being derailed as it was expected that the drama would turn up here. The quote towers are their own problem as well in this thread as long as they don't make them solely for the purpose of making quote towers.
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I am not sure if I understand the nature of the thread, and I'm not naming any names; but I'm pretty sure you guys that are arguing completely derailed it. That's very annoying.
You probably are a huge portion of the truly active members, which is probably why you don't receive the banning for your continuing disruption, thread derailing and quote towers. So try not to abuse that please?
As for your arguing, you really should stop trying to argue the point in when the other party clearly doesn't understand you [doesn't want to understand you].
So we heard unv's side, what's tremZ/Volt's side? Because Cron makes volt seem like a complete fucking asshole faggot. Which might not be the case.
Or, is this really the whole story and they are complete asshole faggots who decline to make a statement because they know they are in the wrong.
OR did cron just have first post which was unintentional by you whereas tremZ completely dropped the ball and didn't even write a thing here
The quote towers are their own problem as well in this thread as long as they don't make them solely for the purpose of making quote towers.
I concurr.
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fuck argument, 1.1 is best get off my lawn.
come at me bro, i am fucking drunk.