Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rippy on August 13, 2006, 10:39:14 pm
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I've thought a while about how to have a good high-damage, slow-reload, bolt-action (or the futuristic equivalent) sniper rifle in the game without unbalancing things.
First, I thought the mass driver should do much more damage, since right now it's near useless against everything mara and bigger. But the MD is available in s1, and is only meant to be good at taking out those small aliens. So the MD isn't the sniper rifle I'm thinking of.
Then I thought there should just be an s3 sniper rifle weapon that does LOTS of damage but has a really long reload between shots, in the 3 second range. But then I realised that a weapon that does so much damage, yet leaves you vulnerable after every shot, would only be used for one thing: camping. People would just sit in their base doing 100dmg a hit and not caring about the 2sec reload because they have a nice little base to sit in.
And yet, I still think that a weapon like that would be a nice addition. A sort of luci that does comparable damage, but is hitscan and has long reloads in between shots. But how to make it something that isn't completely abused by campers?
I guess that's why I made a thread about it. Does anyone else yearn for a sniper that does good damage? And how to make it less easily campable? Finding an excuse that makes it not function near the reactor?
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NO.
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I've thought a while about how to have a good high-damage, slow-reload, bolt-action (or the futuristic equivalent) sniper rifle in the game without unbalancing things.
First, I thought the mass driver should do much more damage, since right now it's near useless against everything mara and bigger. But the MD is available in s1, and is only meant to be good at taking out those small aliens. So the MD isn't the sniper rifle I'm thinking of.
Then I thought there should just be an s3 sniper rifle weapon that does LOTS of damage but has a really long reload between shots, in the 3 second range. But then I realised that a weapon that does so much damage, yet leaves you vulnerable after every shot, would only be used for one thing: camping. People would just sit in their base doing 100dmg a hit and not caring about the 2sec reload because they have a nice little base to sit in.
And yet, I still think that a weapon like that would be a nice addition. A sort of luci that does comparable damage, but is hitscan and has long reloads in between shots. But how to make it something that isn't completely abused by campers?
I guess that's why I made a thread about it. Does anyone else yearn for a sniper that does good damage? And how to make it less easily campable? Finding an excuse that makes it not function near the reactor?
massdriver does enough damage
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there are no maps so big that you can snipe aliens
if you have time to sit and snipe your either camping , or a dretch/mara/goon is waiting for you to shoot before ambushing you.
the games tend to be so fast paced that your constantly attacked and your almost always fighting aliens very close to you
but meh, might be good to take out fleeing tyrants etc
but then again, just chase them with a chaingun etc rather than being in the base and doing it from afar
there are weapons that would do a much better job imo
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A sort of luci that does comparable damage, but is hitscan
HAHAHAHA fuck off. This one isnt even worth an objection its so stupid.
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The mass driver is way too hard for me to use.
So, then, I want a gun that's like the mass driver, but kills Adv. Goons in one hit.
What do you guys think?
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True, this must be the CS:S in me talking :P
Juno I reluctantly agree with, but not vcxzet. MD does 38 damage a shot, ending up with 38 damage a second. Shotgun does 56, chaingun does 75, even the FREE weapon does 55.5 a second. The MD has the second-lowest dps, beaten only by the blaster. The spread is why the MD is only good against small aliens: when you're using a chaingun on a dretch, only maybe 1/10 of the bullets is going to hit it. With an MD, none of the damage is lost in missed bullets. However when facing a large target, very few bullets are lost due to spread. Which is why a shotgun is ok against a Tyrant, but the MD stays weak against the large aliens, while raping the small ones.
Edit: To posts I missed (i.e. useless angry trolling): MD simply isn't effective against large aliens. It doesn't have to do with how accurate you are, it's just the damage it deals. And Henners, you deliberately left out the "with long reloads in between shots" part just to make that quote sound bad. THAT deserves the objection :/
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Fuck off.
Player goes to armory and buys sniper rifle. All aliens die. Game over.
Killing an adv bafoon in 1 shot? GET A GRIP. If you cant hold an md ,then u cant hold a sniper rifle.
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I just want to kill Adv. Goons in one hit. I don't understand why that is such a big deal.
Why can't you just give me what I want?
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Killing Adv. Goons in a single shot is a weeeee bit overpowered methinks :wink:
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Why does everyone default to dick mode the moment someone suggests an idea?
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Because that way it becomes more FUN! :P
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Alright, fine.
Suppose someone suggested an idea like this:
"The basilisk just isn't useful against battlesuits with lucifers.
So, then, I think the basilisk should get 600 hitpoints, and kill bsuits in one hit, and shoot lasers from its eyes.
What do you guys think?"
How would you respond to such a suggestion? It's really not that different from yours.
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How would you respond to such a suggestion? It's really not that different from yours.
"No offense, but that idea is terrible. [explanation]"
"WAY overpowered. [explanation]"
"That balances the game how? [explanation]"
Also, please don't exaggerate. I was suggesting a hitscan weapon that did a comparable amount of damage to the luci, but that has a longer reload between shots (3 seconds or so total) to balance its hitscan attribute. How you can compare that to a 600-hp, 1-hit-kill basilisk, I'll never know.
OR, instead of just telling me I'm gay and should go die, it would help to explain WHY the idea is so flawed. Noone learns or gains anything when you just mock them, if you were to add an explanation to the end of your mockery, you'd at least be basing it off of something and it wouldn't sound as bad.
Oh and thanks Juno for posting something constructive. Ima let this thread drop, since I'm pretty sure I've squeezed out all its meagre usefulness already o_O
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Kozak.. I think I love you.
Will you fucking marry me, man? :cry:
Edit: Learn to use a massdriver, thnx.
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Rippy : Do you want an explanation ? Here it is : You can do more than 200 dmg to an alien with a full charged Lucy...Enough to nearlly one shot an adv goon (the 2nd strongest alien i remind you). The only thing that doesnt make it the ultimate weapon is the slowliness of the shot, making it easilly avoidable at middle and high range.
And you re asking for a weapon that does the same amount of dmg with ultra high speed.
Moreover the only thing you imagined to "balance" the weapon is a long reload time. You said yourself that, with a long reload time, this is only a weapon for campers. The same campers everyone say they ruin the game and try to get ride of. That makes your idea even worse.
Now is that enough ? Do you see how silly your idea is ?
P.S : Although i do think sometimes the Mass Driver could be a little upgraded, i only need to remind me what Jimbo does when he gets his hands on a MD to know this wouldn t be a good idea. So i keep practicing my MD skills (or rather my lack of skills) hoping i will one day be able to be half as good as him.
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forget about the above crap.
Great idea, but no.
its impractical and it will promote camping.
...
hell i would run around head shooting bugs but i don't think they have a head box like humans.
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Rippy : Do you want an explanation ? Here it is : You can do more than 200 dmg to an alien with a full charged Lucy...Enough to nearlly one shot an adv goon (the 2nd strongest alien i remind you). The only thing that doesnt make it the ultimate weapon is the slowliness of the shot, making it easilly avoidable at middle and high range.
And you re asking for a weapon that does the same amount of dmg with ultra high speed.
Moreover the only thing you imagined to "balance" the weapon is a long reload time. You said yourself that, with a long reload time, this is only a weapon for campers. The same campers everyone say they ruin the game and try to get ride of. That makes your idea even worse.
Now is that enough ? Do you see how silly your idea is ?
P.S : Although i do think sometimes the Mass Driver could be a little upgraded, i only need to remind me what Jimbo does when he gets his hands on a MD to know this wouldn t be a good idea. So i keep practicing my MD skills (or rather my lack of skills) hoping i will one day be able to be half as good as him.
Ah, I'd forgotten the luci can do up to 200. I was thinking around the 100 damage range. Heck, you could even downgrade it much more, into a kind of rifle that does 60 or so damage a hit, with a clip and reload similar to the MD. An improved MD, I suppose.
Again, I'm just throwing things out there trying to think of an accurate weapon that's more effective against bigger aliens than smaller ones, so pretty much everything I spew out is bound to be crap o_O It's tough to have an accurate weapon that can't be used to camp long hallways for small aliens (already got the MD for that).
Here we go, I've got a slightly less crappy alternative. The weapon (which would have to be an energy weapon for this to make sense) would take a mandatory 1 second to charge up before the shot (or beam) is released. And while charging, it starts to shake so violently that your view starts vibrating, much like the chaingun. Doesn't affect the accuracy at all, just makes it much harder to aim well, or to get a perfect shot you need to line it up BEFORE you start charging. Does around 120 damage a shot (it's an s3 weapon, it should at least kill dretches and basis in 1hit), giving it 60 damage per second (1 second to charge, 1 second cooldown) compared to the MD's 38. I'm picking 60dps because it fits nicely between the prifle and chaingun, which both have their own drawbacks to compensate for the high damage (slow shots / innacurate, respectively)
Now, don't comment on whether or not such a weapon is NECESSARY, since I obviously don't think the game needs something like this at this time. But variety in weapons/evos is what'll make Tremulous awesome for even longer, so I'm just throwing ideas out there.
Now please, point out the flaws in my revised sniper-esque weapon, since there's gotta be something I missed. x_o
Note: I'll point it out myself that, at 120 damage, that thing COULD take out an adv granger in 1 hit. lmao. But so could a luci, the other s3 weapon.
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Rippy, play the game a tad more then make a suggestion.
If you're not aware how much damage a certain current weapon does and how much HP an alien class has leads me to believe that you're in absolutly no possition to make new weapon suggestions.
Had you suggested a MD with a tweakable DMG setting proportional to ammo usage, someone might have taken you seroiusly.
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Rippy......
Just to settle my curiousity, do you ever play as a bug?
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How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.
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Rippy......
Just to settle my curiousity, do you ever play as a bug?
yeah some MD maniac comes to the scenes and starts to massdrive maras dretches and even goons.
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How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.
Well yeah, you press fire then are required to track your target for one second while it charges up.
And yes, I play aliens more often than humans since I find I do better with them (although it varies). I know exactly how painful it is to be 1-hit killed as a dretch or 2-hit killed as a basi. I also know how painful it is to be 1-hit killed as a friggin' adv. goon (happened to me once) from a luci.
But the actual damage it does is more-or-less irrelevant, since it's not like it's difficult to tweak that. I guess what I'd like to know is, what's so bad about a weaker, hitscan alternative to the luci?
Oh and phreak, it's not that I didn't know how much damage the luci does, I just blanked out I guess and I wasn't thinking about the luci itself so it never came to mind. Anyway, that MD thing is an ok idea, it'd need a delay before the shot that increases when more ammo is used. And of course there'd have to be something to make it only available in s2 or s3 ("Revised Mass Driver" maybe?)
Anyway, thanks for all the harsh yet helpful criticism.
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How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.
Well yeah, you press fire then are required to track your target for one second while it charges up.
And while charging, it starts to shake so violently that your view starts vibrating, much like the chaingun. Doesn't affect the accuracy at all, just makes it much harder to aim well, or to get a perfect shot you need to line it up BEFORE you start charging.
Hmm :P
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How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.
Well yeah, you press fire then are required to track your target for one second while it charges up.
And while charging, it starts to shake so violently that your view starts vibrating, much like the chaingun. Doesn't affect the accuracy at all, just makes it much harder to aim well, or to get a perfect shot you need to line it up BEFORE you start charging.
Hmm :P
Touché, another way to balance the firepower :P It wouldn't be quite as extreme as the chaingun, but it'd be something to stop you from having 100% aim. Heck, I guess there doesn't even need to be view shaking, since its damage is constantly being whittled down and it's starting to be only fair to give 'em a decent shot.
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treemulos aldy haz a sniepr riefl
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Player goes to armory and buys sniper rifle. All aliens die. Game over.
:P You wish dude... you wish...
Aah wait a min xD You play against "UNNAMEDPLAYER" when you "own"
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What a bunch of pricks on this board... somebody makes a suggestion that they acknowledge might not work for some reason and everybody just trashes him. My favorite was from PHREAK, who told him he needs to play the game a tad more. Yes, 200 posts, but he obviously doesn't play enough, he just posts to the forum all day. But at least his reply was readable, which is more then I can say for kozak6, Henners, or Thorn who were all total douchebags about it.
There are a few good reply posts, but it took 11 replies (not including the author's) before somebody bothered to post a reasonable counter point. Being a prick in the forums is going to make it tough to get new people to play, which we need to make this game survive.
Take somebody new to the game who has played say, 15 hours of Tremulous. They think, "Man, this game needs a sniper rifle" They go to the forums, see this post, and stop reading after about 7 posts and leave the forum thinking, "Wow, what a bunch of assholes." Not the image we want for Tremulous.
Instead, had the replies been reasonable and thoughtful, he would realize, "ok, a sniper rifle doesn't make sense."
And don't tell me this is a rare case. I read enough forum entries here to know that people reply in a manner they would never do in real life.
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There are about 2000 posts telling people to play the game more than an hour before posting ideas.
If your going to do something like that it would have to be a Stage 4 weapon.
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What a bunch of pricks on this board... somebody makes a suggestion that they acknowledge might not work for some reason and everybody just trashes him. My favorite was from PHREAK, who told him he needs to play the game a tad more. Yes, 200 posts, but he obviously doesn't play enough, he just posts to the forum all day. But at least his reply was readable, which is more then I can say for kozak6, Henners, or Thorn who were all total douchebags about it.
There are a few good reply posts, but it took 11 replies (not including the author's) before somebody bothered to post a reasonable counter point. Being a prick in the forums is going to make it tough to get new people to play, which we need to make this game survive.
Take somebody new to the game who has played say, 15 hours of Tremulous. They think, "Man, this game needs a sniper rifle" They go to the forums, see this post, and stop reading after about 7 posts and leave the forum thinking, "Wow, what a bunch of assholes." Not the image we want for Tremulous.
Instead, had the replies been reasonable and thoughtful, he would realize, "ok, a sniper rifle doesn't make sense."
And don't tell me this is a rare case. I read enough forum entries here to know that people reply in a manner they would never do in real life.
Read the third post of this, look at post-count:
http://www.tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1661
and now, honestly tell me that you can compare game-time/leetnes with forum posts.
good day sir.
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Yes, 200 posts, but he obviously doesn't play enough, he just posts to the forum all day.
OT: We do have someone here who has over 200 posts, but .. er, all he does is post to the forum all day. We call him DIGI_Byte. Actually, that's what he calls himself. I don't know if he knows English.. or plays Tremulous...
EDIT: pwned by Mietz. While I was typing/previewing this message, too.. :cry:
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Yes, 200 posts, but he obviously doesn't play enough, he just posts to the forum all day.
OT: We do have someone here who has over 200 posts, but .. er, all he does is post to the forum all day. We call him DIGI_Byte. Actually, that's what he calls himself. I don't know if he knows English.. or plays Tremulous...
EDIT: pwned by Mietz. While I was typing/previewing this message, too.. :cry:
Yea, maybe he have not played Tremulous, but he for sure have played DIGI-pokemonsters (http://digital-monsters.iespana.es/digital-monsters/digimal.htm) that have such much cooler monsters than Trem.
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Yes, 200 posts, but he obviously doesn't play enough, he just posts to the forum all day.
OT: We do have someone here who has over 200 posts, but .. er, all he does is post to the forum all day. We call him DIGI_Byte. Actually, that's what he calls himself. I don't know if he knows English.. or plays Tremulous...
EDIT: pwned by Mietz. While I was typing/previewing this message, too.. :cry:
Yea, maybe he have not played Tremulous, but he for sure have played DIGI-pokemonsters (http://digital-monsters.iespana.es/digital-monsters/digimal.htm) that have such much cooler monsters than Trem.
hey, nothing against digimon!
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Yeah, not everything with Digi in the name is inherently worthless and pointless. ;)
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Yea, maybe he have not played Tremulous, but he for sure have played DIGI-pokemonsters (http://digital-monsters.iespana.es/digital-monsters/digimal.htm) that have such much cooler monsters than Trem.
I want Armagemon in Tremulous xD
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lol, this thread is officially hijacked. And although it's true that a lot of people are dicks in the suggestion threads, it's also true that the post count DOES NOT matter. The post count measures the quantity of your replies, not the quality :P
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Here we go, I've got a slightly less crappy alternative. The weapon (which would have to be an energy weapon for this to make sense) would take a mandatory 1 second to charge up before the shot (or beam) is released. And while charging, it starts to shake so violently that your view starts vibrating, much like the chaingun. Doesn't affect the accuracy at all, just makes it much harder to aim well, or to get a perfect shot you need to line it up BEFORE you start charging. Does around 120 damage a shot (it's an s3 weapon, it should at least kill dretches and basis in 1hit), giving it 60 damage per second (1 second to charge, 1 second cooldown) compared to the MD's 38. I'm picking 60dps because it fits nicely between the prifle and chaingun, which both have their own drawbacks to compensate for the high damage (slow shots / innacurate, respectively)
this imo would be a camping weapon again
if you went to attack....
shoots adv goon, oh shit 2 seconds til i can fire again, omg dretch pwned
goons will just take the hit and kill you in the two seconds unless your able to dodge, while probably being attacked by dretches maras and basis
also, tyrants would just pwn you, and as i said before, you can just chase them with a chaingun instead
would only work for uber l337 players and even then , they would just be dodge half the time un able to hit the dretches etc
just my opinion tho
stop flaming the guy
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Well, it isn't any different from the luci, which also takes 2 secs to charge. I guess it could have an alt-fire that does less damage but fires faster.
Primary fire: Takes 1 second to charge up plasma, 1 second cooldown
Secondary fire: Lack of charging means the plasma isn't aimed into a beam, and instead splatters out shot-gun style, doing maybe half or 3/4 the damage that a shotgun does. Would still have the 1 second cooldown.
Then it's basically a hitscan version of the luci, and would be priced about the same. Would give people a bit of a choice in s3 weapons.
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lol, this thread is officially hijacked. And although it's true that a lot of people are dicks in the suggestion threads, it's also true that the post count DOES NOT matter. The post count measures the quantity of your replies, not the quality :P
I apply for this to be crowned with the "insight of the month" award! Truer words have never been said! ;)
Danny
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To the faggots who spout fuck off:
Stop gobbling penis.
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What a bunch of pricks on this board... somebody makes a suggestion that they acknowledge might not work for some reason and everybody just trashes him.
Agreed. A rational, calmly worded post deserves a rational, calmly worded reply.
Rippy: The mass driver used to do just 12 damage more than it does now and was the best weapon humans had. Being able to hit things from any distance is a huge advantage. Even if you're just considering damage-per-second you have to take into account the time when an alien is approaching you or fleeing from you: the mdriver can do consistent damage then while the chaingun or shotgun damage/time ratio just drops. I don't have any problem killing marauders or dragoons with it (though it's only preferable for those classes alone when it's the end of the game and the last remaining aliens are just running from everything).
That doesn't rule out the possibility of high class sniper rifle: the problem with any sort of "super" weapon is that the only way to balance one is to make it cheap for both sides: the person wielding it has to suffer some penalty severe enough so that the weapon is frustrating to use in all cases except when it kills some high level enemy, which is just as frustrating for that player.
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That doesn't rule out the possibility of high class sniper rifle: the problem with any sort of "super" weapon is that the only way to balance one is to make it cheap for both sides: the person wielding it has to suffer some penalty severe enough so that the weapon is frustrating to use in all cases except when it kills some high level enemy, which is just as frustrating for that player.
You've summed it all up nicely. That's what the luci is: extremely powerful, but often difficult/annoying to use. I wanted something a lot like that, exept it's hitscan and does less damage to compensate for it. Something to replace the MD late-game.
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Gotta love DJ_Pong's line at the bottom of his posts
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Gotta love DJ_Pong's line at the bottom of his posts
what is the troll talking about?
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Gotta love DJ_Pong's line at the bottom of his posts
what is the troll talking about?
1. Are you aware of what a troll is?
2. How does your post contribute to the subject any more than the post you're mocking?
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your right about the camping thing. Other thing that would happen is the humans take out the alien base without ever having to get near its defenses. maye snipe from a jetpack or something like that.
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I played with a guy named Zoomified once, and he totally owned every alien in the server with the mass driver, he was just a good shot. Its got enough punch, trust me.
_bb
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I played with a guy named Zoomified once, and he totally owned every alien in the server with the mass driver, he was just a good shot. Its got enough punch, trust me.
_bb
what are you talking about? he just sits next to his turrets all day long.