Tremulous Forum
Mods => Modding Center => Topic started by: next_ghost on August 19, 2006, 10:12:03 pm
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We've talked about the idea of designated builders earlier. I'd like to get this idea thought out to detail here and then implemented. This thread doesn't really fit into any current forum section so if you could, make a coding section and move it there. I'd also very appreciate if mods could deal with trolls in this thread swiftly. Thank you.
And now to the idea. This text will be updated as changes will be made to the design. As you can guess, the 'Q's in parentheses are design questions that have to be discussed before we begin implementing the idea.
The presence of designated builder will NOT prevent anyone from getting ckit and using it, it will just limit the list of buildings nonDBs can deconstruct.
- Who can be designated builder: Anybody, class/equipment does not matter. However, DBs will still have to become granger or buy ckit in order to build, repair, decon. You can toggle protection using the reload key as builder class or you can use the /protect command anytime. Note: You have to be in decon range to toggle protection.
- How can somebody become DB: By teamvote or admin command.
- How can somebody lose DB status: By teamvote, admin command or he could /resign. Teamvote can be used to revoke admin command designation but it will revoke persistant designation for only one map.
- DB privileges: Unlimited deconstruction (even for protected structures), building protection from deconners (protected structures can be deconstructed only by another DB, any building built by DB is protected by default, DB can also toggle protection of already built structures)
- Structure protection duration: Until deconned, damaged beyond repair, toggled off by DB or until all DBs disconnect or lose DB status.
- Server admins can give permanent designation using a new privilege flag in admin.dat
Pros: Easy way to get rid of griefers and noob builders
Cons: None I can think of
Development stuff:
1) We'll need 2 icons - red "no decon" for nonDBs (cross?) and blue "protected" for DBs (shield?) that will appear above protected structures.
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cons:
-complicates the game
-vote-wars (ie. if the team is not unified in finding a builder)
-what if a designated builder builds crap, and team is too noob to recognize?
-makes the team vulerable in the phase of voting and/or basemove.
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I'm also against this feature.
Adding rules makes the game less enjoyable.
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-complicates the game
It should be an optional feature. If there's no DB, there'll be no difference to current situation.
-vote-wars (ie. if the team is not unified in finding a builder)
There should not be any limit of DB count. If there's a vote war, either the builders, the voters or both are noobs.
-what if a designated builder builds crap, and team is too noob to recognize?
This idea is not intended to keep players safe from their own stupidity. It's intended to keep players safe from stupidity/malice of others.
-makes the team vulerable in the phase of voting and/or basemove.
Spending a minute voting is much less vulnerability than spending 10 minutes fighting noob builders/griefers. And how does it make team vulnerable during base move?
I'm also against this feature.
Adding rules makes the game less enjoyable.
Griefers and noob builders make Tremulous more enjoyable for you? Not for me, so I want this idea implemented.
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Spending a minute voting is much less vulnerability than spending 10 minutes fighting noob builders/griefers.
There are much more games without griefers than games with.
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Just have tjw add it to g_admin, then it could be used, or not used.
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How about making ckits cost 201 credits? That way it would be at least 4 minutes before a noob touched a ckit. :)
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How about making ckits cost 201 credits? That way it would be at least 4 minutes before a noob touched a ckit.
Go play a game at Transit as a human, and then reconsider your suggestion 8) .
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Simple solution: delete Transit from Maplists. It's not like Tremulous won't be the same without it.
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There are much more games without griefers than games with.
And for those games without griefers, you won't have to vote for designated builder. If I haven't written it clearly enough, the presence of designated builder will NOT prevent anyone from getting ckit and using it, it will just limit the list of buildings nonDBs can deconstruct.
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I have an idea somewhere along these lines.
What if you had to bind "deconstruct" to a key?
It would definitely cut down on the noobs accidently deconning the reactor.
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There are much more games without griefers than games with.
And for those games without griefers, you won't have to vote for designated builder. If I haven't written it clearly enough, the presence of designated builder will NOT prevent anyone from getting ckit and using it, it will just limit the list of buildings nonDBs can deconstruct.
I see nowhere in what you have written how it will work to prevent griefers from messing with the base if no DB is voted before the griefer starts removing things.
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I see nowhere in what you have written how it will work to prevent griefers from messing with the base if no DB is voted before the griefer starts removing things.
That's the point of having DBs. You have no griefer protection now and you won't have any if you choose not to vote a DB after it'll be implemented. However, having a DB in the game even when he's not needed won't change anything at all.
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I see nowhere in what you have written how it will work to prevent griefers from messing with the base if no DB is voted before the griefer starts removing things.
That's the point of having DBs. You have no griefer protection now and you won't have any if you choose not to vote a DB after it'll be implemented. However, having a DB in the game even when he's not needed won't change anything at all.
so you necessarily say, you idea is totally unnecessary?
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Here's my understanding:
Situation 1:
Team has a good builder, and a crap builder who keeps ruining the base.
With the DB system, the team would vote for the former to be a DB.
The DB can then protect everything, and block out the crap one.
Situation 2:
Team has a good builder, and a learner builder who listens to instructions, but still makes mistakes occasionally.
With the DB system, the team would vote for the former to be a DB. (And the latter would agree)
The newbie can then help out, without people worrying about him deconning something important.
Situation 3:
Team has a few good builders.
With the DB system, there would be no problems and a DB would never be voted in.
The game continues normally.
I think the second is not something people have considered yet either.
(Probably because there are many n00bs, and few newbies willing to learn)
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so you necessarily say, you idea is totally unnecessary?
No, I say it's sort of "deconner insurance". You don't have to use it if you think your base is safe from idiots but if it isn't, you can take precautions that can save you much pain. Read what Aninhumer wrote.
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Why don't you just kick/ban the annoying builder/TKer?
Seriously though, what you people want is to impose limitations. Limitations that will surely annoy the crap out of a lot of players, since most players are just nice people, who do not want to TK, nor replace properly built bases. I think it's pretty damn sad people want to impose rules/limitations for the sake of a minority of retards. Vigilant players and strong admins can easily solve this 'problem'.
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I agree totaly with Lava and I think such feature would be a huge waste of coding time.
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Why don't you just kick/ban the annoying builder/TKer?
Seriously though, what you people want is to impose limitations. Limitations that will surely annoy the crap out of a lot of players, since most players are just nice people, who do not want to TK, nor replace properly built bases. I think it's pretty damn sad people want to impose rules/limitations for the sake of a minority of retards. Vigilant players and strong admins can easily solve this 'problem'.
Good admins solve the problem.. Vigilant players can try to solve the problem.. but the problem is the voting system can be unreliable.
The greifer can try to jam the voting system, maybe change their name after a few decons, use the black letter bug etc.. not to mention when people try to vote off good players who just picked the wrong time to try to move something etc... Not to mention, by the time a vote starts damage has been done.
So obviously people will try to find a better way to deal with this problem, but the fact is that when things are getting tight you need not to have to rely on votes.. especially when you need to move right at the start of the map. Too much voting in some servers as it is. This is not the solution
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Why don't you just kick/ban the annoying builder/TKer?
Seriously though, what you people want is to impose limitations. Limitations that will surely annoy the crap out of a lot of players, since most players are just nice people, who do not want to TK, nor replace properly built bases. I think it's pretty damn sad people want to impose rules/limitations for the sake of a minority of retards. Vigilant players and strong admins can easily solve this 'problem'.
If they don't try to replace properly built bases, this limitation will not affect them in ANY way. If you don't hesitate to ban somebody just for being too unexperienced, most of other admins do and most players won't votekick for anything short of reactor decon.
And if you think it'll be just a waste of coding time, it'll be MY wasted coding time.
So, could we get to the design questions already?
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Question : what if the griefers start deconstructing buildings with a painsaw ? Shall we make all the buildings immune to FF too and thus promote the Lucifer/Flamer usage inside the human base as a defense tool ?
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Question : what if the griefers start deconstructing buildings with a painsaw ? Shall we make all the buildings immune to FF too and thus promote the Lucifer/Flamer usage inside the human base as a defense tool ?
That's good reason for permanent ban and some servers will automatically kick for that. Anyway, it takes some time to TK structures and anybody around your base can TK you before you can seriously damage the reactor.
Any more pointless attempts to discredit this idea or can we finally start talking about the design?
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That's good reason for permanent ban and some servers will automatically kick for that. Anyway, it takes some time to TK structures and anybody around your base can TK you before you can seriously damage the reactor.
Any more pointless attempts to discredit this idea or can we finally start talking about the design?
Permanent ban ? You mean with an admin at hand so. What's the point of that DB crap if you have an admin available ?
Do you know how much DPS you get out of a painsaw ? Do you really think you'll be able to react to such act in time ? I mean, are you always in the base checking nobody painsaws the armory/telenodes ? You must not be a good player then.
And about the automatic kick, IT SUCKS A LOT. After all, painsaw IS the most efficient tool to deconstruct the old base as fast as possible during a move ( no deconstruct timer to wait for ). Combine that with the awful job tremulous does to warn you about friendly fire and the generaly stupid algorithms used to detect accidental FF from griefer FF which kick honest players much more often than they kick griefers.
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Permanent ban ? You mean with an admin at hand so. What's the point of that DB crap if you have an admin available ?
Saving his work and builder time.
Do you know how much DPS you get out of a painsaw ? Do you really think you'll be able to react to such act in time ? I mean, are you always in the base checking nobody painsaws the armory/telenodes ? You must not be a good player then.
And about the automatic kick, IT SUCKS A LOT. After all, painsaw IS the most efficient tool to deconstruct the old base as fast as possible during a move ( no deconstruct timer to wait for ). Combine that with the awful job tremulous does to warn you about friendly fire and the generaly stupid algorithms used to detect accidental FF from griefer FF which kick honest players much more often than they kick griefers.
Most servers have increased decon timer (about 3 times longer than default 5 seconds) as a simple deconner defense. With DBs around, those servers could return back to the short default decon timer and you wouldn't have to use painsaw instead of ckit.
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Painsaw also means you are not defenseless while removing the old base.
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Question : what if the griefers start deconstructing buildings with a painsaw ? Shall we make all the buildings immune to FF too and thus promote the Lucifer/Flamer usage inside the human base as a defense tool ?
FF penalty for structures. Destroying a structure without the kit, or hurting a teammate and you get a small health penalty..
Of course you can argue deconning with a painsaw can be good for moving bases or something, but really it circumvents the timer and is way to useful for deconners. Its more like a loophole than a good tactic... Learn to use the blaster to defend yourself!
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I've started coding this feature and right now, I need some testers. If you want to run a test server, get SVN codebase and apply the second partial patch (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/attachment.cgi?id=1051) from Tremulous Bugzilla (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2857).
Features so far:
- !(un)designate admin command to handle designation, 'd' flag in admin.dat
- structures built by designated builders are automatically protected
- only designated builders can decon protected structures
- designated builder can toggle structure protection using the reload key (he has to be granger or use ckit)
- teamchange and mapchange cancel designation
- when all designated builders in the team disconnect/change team/lose DB status, all structures of that team lose protection
Features to be done:
- persistent designation list
- teamvote designation
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Wasnt this thread dead? :o
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Yeah, but this is actually an important development.
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Another patch with teamvotes is done. You can get it here (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/attachment.cgi?id=1053).
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- Who can be designated builder: Anybody, class/equipment does not matter. However, DBs will still have to become granger or buy ckit in order to build, repair, decon (Q: should they need ckit/granger for toggling structure protection?)
- How can somebody become DB: By teamvote or admin command.
- How can somebody lose DB status: By teamvote (Q: should teamvote revoke DB status given by admin?), admin command or he could resign (Q: /resign or something else?)
- DB privileges: Unlimited deconstruction (even for protected structures), building protection from deconners (protected structures can be deconstructed only by another DB, any building built by DB is protected by default, DB can also toggle protection of already built structures; Q: reload key?)
- Structure protection duration: Until deconned, destroyed, toggled off by DB or until all DBs disconnect or lose DB status (Q: should the disconnect/lose DB status check be global or for each DB separately?)
My thoughts as a regular builder (Believe it or not.... I got so bored while a bunch of excellent boys were off raping the alien base I browsed the forum and re-read this to refresh my memory...
A) I think DB's should not need to have their ckit/grangar in order to toggle whether a building should or should not be protected. In some instances, such as rasz's demo map on pwning as a tyrant floating someplace else in this forum, the engineer/grangar will have to forcibly swap to something else in the meantime, and the handy ability to demarcate or undemarcate is surely something you don't need a ckit for (I see it as: "OK you fraggin' grunts. Do NOT touch the armory with your kit set to deconstruct! Hicks! That goes for you!" and then later, "Ok son, I'll let you move it, just this once.") (Hmmm there go my keybinds for what I'll say for them already :P)
B) Teamvote should probably allow revokation from admins - Admit it, some admins are dicks, and they'll pander to their lackeys, even if it means letting a much better player suck it high and dry. I'd really rather not (but then that begs the question: Why am I playing there still in the first place? Hmm...)
C) /resign sounds fine.
D) /reload key to set protected status was a good idea, but if we allow those who are DB's and who are not currently holding ckits/grangars to change options with any weapon equipped/in any evolved form, perhaps we could make this a keybind that they choose instead.
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Just make use of the blaster secondary fire for the DB protection tool :D
Ok, that's a crude hack I'll admit it.
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The only option for class/weapon unlimited protection toggle would be another command. Secondary blaster would be nice for humans but it would be inconsistent for aliens, which breaks the least surprise rule.
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D) /reload key to set protected status was a good idea, but if we allow those who are DB's and who are not currently holding ckits/grangars to change options with any weapon equipped/in any evolved form, perhaps we could make this a keybind that they choose instead.
Here you go, /protect command. The new patch is here (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/attachment.cgi?id=1055).
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I'm not sure /resign is such a good command, it sounds a little too generic.
Or am I imagining a structure for the commands that isn't there?
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I'm not sure /resign is such a good command, it sounds a little too generic.
Or am I imagining a structure for the commands that isn't there?
If somebody adds some new feature that would require resigns, he can use /resign for it by adding a parameter. Right now, it's just /resign. Later, it might be /resign builder, /resign commander, /resign whatever...
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Ghost's idea actually could be a very good thing in Trem, it could use some work but with some time spent on the problem I am sure someone could come up with something that could benefit alot of players. One simple idea would be to make it so the game or a server's admin could use it to to prevent untrusted players on a team the right to decon the main structure. Far to many games have been ruined in the past by deconners or non-experienced player trying to move the base at the worst time possible and this kind of thing leads many players to quitting the game. A feature that protects a team from new builders and griefers can be a very good thing.
cons:
-complicates the game.
It could if designed poorly, but if you get a smart group hackers together they could end up with a in-game feature that prevents jerks from ruining the game and doesn't complicated the game at all. Their just isn't any reason
I find it funny that so many admin kiddies felt the need to write on this forum that they thought a feature that prevents new players from making a big mistake like deconning the reactor would most likely hinder the game, perhaps they like they fact that they have someone to use their undeserved admin abilities on. I guess some admins just don't understand the fact that when a griefer or a new player decons the team's overmind or reactor at the wrong time the game is already ruined for everyone. That or the fact that many people couldn't design a game's feature for the life of them.
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!denybuild FTW
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!denybuild FTW
BAAAAAAAAD idea. Imagine the last alive human in the map is denied building. There're no telenodes, just armoury and reactor. Everybody shouts "BUILD! BUILD!" and he can't. If he won't build because he's a moron, the loss is his fault. If he won't build because you have forbidden it, it's your fault.
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The final patch including permanent designation is done, you can grab it here (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/attachment.cgi?id=1071).
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!denybuild FTW
BAAAAAAAAD idea. Imagine the last alive human in the map is denied building. There're no telenodes, just armoury and reactor. Everybody shouts "BUILD! BUILD!" and
and !allowbuild FTW
yes, it works only with active admins
yes, playing on servers without admins is DUMP, so dont be a dump person
it sure is better than !kick xxx IDIOTNEVEREVERtouchCKITagainYOUmongol
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Giving admins the right to block building from players they don't like would probably be a very bad idea.
Just imagine a game where you had a power hungry admin who liked to play granger on the alien team and thought that nobody on the team know how to build well as granger in the game and decides to block everyone on the team except for his one friend in the game.
The alien team kicks the humans ass at s1 and reaches stage 2 before the humans the humans end up camping when they see the most of the aliens are maras and goons the humans are actually successful in camping and end of leaving the aliens with very few ep. While the human team camps two alien feeders decide to spawn as adv granger and thinks it's a good idea to spit at the humans base they are both easily killed, and the team notices that they just gave the humans s2 and a very frustrated admin kicks both of them out of the game.
At s2 all hell breaks loose and the human team rushes a unfinshed alien base with pulse and nades. Everything is destroyed except for one egg every alien wants to spawn as granger but the admin is so pisseed off that he forgets to allow people to build and most players end up spawning as dretches, the teams two builders have to wait before the other players before they can spawn. Sadly the human team finds the hidden egg before any granger spawns and the human win the game and our pissed of admin friend kicks the whole alien team except for his one friend.
So IMHO !allowbuild is worse then !kick IAmANoobie BurnInHell
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Giving admins the right to block building from players they don't like would probably be a very bad idea.
Just imagine a game where you had a power hungry admin
you are talking about Lava again, arent you ? :P
I dont know any other 'power hungry' 'except for his one friend' admin. Besides !denybuild is the least of your worries if such an admin has !kick.
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Giving admins the right to block building from players they don't like would probably be a very bad idea.
Just imagine a game where you had a power hungry admin
you are talking about Lava again, arent you ? :P
I dont know any other 'power hungry' 'except for his one friend' admin. Besides !denybuild is the least of your worries if such an admin has !kick.
Actually, I didn't have lava croft in mind when I was writting that crap. Satgnu does make its rules clear and I think mwa and lava croft do try and follow them assuming that they arn't pissed off and the admins in general can can be a real pain to deal with when they are having a bad day.
What bothers me about admins with alot of rights is that they could easily ruin the game with a single command.
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I still think it would be alot more useful to have a voteable 15min ban... so a greifer comes, oh well! restart the map and they'll loose interesting in 15min :)
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I still think it would be alot more useful to have a voteable 15min ban... so a greifer comes, oh well! restart the map and they'll loose interesting in 15min :)
If this idea gets in the trunk, griefer comes, gets ckit, presses deconstruct key and BANG... Nothing happens 8)
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I fear it'll be more like that for a 10 game sample :
- 4 games, we wasted our time voting for a dedicated builder in case a griefer would come which never happend
- 3 games, we voted for a dedicated builder and it prevented a griefer from messing with our base. Only we never knew it happened and so, in the players mind it was yet another useless vote at the start of the game
- 2 games, we lost because of a griefer and because we were sick of uselessly voting for a dedicated builder
- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight
The biggest risk here is that the feature will be seen as annoying and intrusive by the players, and so that they will stop using it after some time. But in the end, as long as it is used it'll sure help get rid of base deconners.
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Satgnu does make its rules clear and I think mwa and lava croft do try and follow them assuming that they arn't pissed off
yep, one of those rules is !kick rasz_pl if you cant kill him (happened yesterday :P)
What bothers me about admins with alot of rights is that they could easily ruin the game with a single command.
erm, there is always some metaadmin/server owner that you can complain to, they usually DONT like power hungry admins. All I can say is I'm VERY impressed with Napkin(aliens wrath) and Tommat(IRS PubPL).
Hodge, please say out loud WHAT ARE YOU TALKING about, there are no other 'admins with alot of rights that could easily ruin the game' other than Lava that I know of :).
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with alot of rights that could easily ruin the game' other than Lava that I know of :).
Opps, sorry for the confussion. I actually wasn't trying to report any bad admin use in Tremulous, It's to my surprise that someone actually took something I poorly written in a few minutes serious. As far as I am aware most Tremulous servers (sst isn't one of them) have good level 4 and 5 admins except lava :-).
Perhaps !disallowbuild really is something that should be giving to admins. Recently on Satgnu I was banned from the server (no not by lava) shortly after I joined because I decided to decon a extra telenode. Basically I deconned the telenode because we already had 3 that were in it's default location, the base's rector and spawn were vulnerable to maras and goons and I didn't want to decon any defense my team placed because someone might get pissed. If I was denied building I wouldn't have been banned and I could have told whoever built that awful base that the base was vulnerable to an attack.
- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight
The only way you can be sure if someone is who the say they are is if they have admin rights of one or more. Spending the time voting for a single builder that could leave the second you vote for him could just be a waste of everyone's time.
More idiotic rambling!
I'm VERY impressed with Napkin(aliens wrath) and Tommat(IRS PubPL).
Admins that I trust in tremulous are tjw, tommat, mario and sometimes napkin (When I am on his team and he isn't pissed off). It's a damn shame that an active admin like lava croft has turned to the dark side.
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- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight
The only way you can be sure if someone is who the say they are is if they have admin rights of one or more. Spending the time voting for a single builder that could leave the second you vote for him could just be a waste of everyone's time.
Do you say that we should only vote admins as dedicated builders? Wow! Talk about a nearly useless feature then :)
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I fear it'll be more like that for a 10 game sample :
- 4 games, we wasted our time voting for a dedicated builder in case a griefer would come which never happend
- 3 games, we voted for a dedicated builder and it prevented a griefer from messing with our base. Only we never knew it happened and so, in the players mind it was yet another useless vote at the start of the game
- 2 games, we lost because of a griefer and because we were sick of uselessly voting for a dedicated builder
- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight
The biggest risk here is that the feature will be seen as annoying and intrusive by the players, and so that they will stop using it after some time. But in the end, as long as it is used it'll sure help get rid of base deconners.
Stof, just shut up and wait for the testing results. The code is finished and some servers are already getting this patch.
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Sorry about that, it was supposed to be somewhat humoristic but it failed miserably ( probably due to a lack of smiley )
Actually, I would be happy to test that feature despite all I've said ( after all, if something is stupid but works, then it ISN'T stupid ;) )
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Designated builders won't help against eggspammers, right? That's the biggest problem when building as alien.
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I like the spirit of the idea, but I'm not sure it should be standard-release but instead maybe a mod.
I think it could be simplified by permitting a TEAM VOTE to grant/revoke "Chief/Master" Builder(s). There could then be several levels of BUILD MODES that specify levels of lock-down of building such as BUILD_MODE_OPEN, BUILD_MODE_NO_DECON, or something. A Master Builder can set the active mode for the team. Certain 'sensitive' activities like deconning by a regular builder under BUILD_MODE_NO_DECON won't execute until approval is given by a Master Builder (through like a 'approvebuild'/'rejectbuild' command they could bind). An automatic approval can be obtained after like 10 seconds so that desperate builders aren't totally at the mercy of a Master Builders alertness.
Only Master Builders would get messages and prompts for approvals so as to not bother the rest of the team. Certain special cases would need to be covered where the mode would automatically reset to BUILD_MODE_OPEN if all Master Builders disconnect, timeout, idle, SD, "Overmind Needs Spawns", or something.
Again, the Master Builder system doesn't even HAVE to be used. It's team optional.
Other Master Builder idea extensions could be to give a bp quota to individual builder (a forward base builder), set a max limit on the number of some structure ("no more than 8 eggs", "No more than 2 DCs"), prevent some structures from building ("No barricades, please"). Master builders (or maybe builders in general) could receive more detailed info about damaged/destroyed structures ("Turret #12 Critically Damaged") that may not interest the warriors.
I know any similar scheme is complex, however building is crucial to the game's procession, and large-scale servers with many good regular players would likely demand some sort of enhancement in this area so they can actually have a chance to enjoy a good competitive game.
Yes tools already exist to assist in designating builders like kicking bad builders and voting for a map restart... but how much of that can you really do and have an enjoyable game? Several have commented that griefers aren't that much a problem, and I for one disagree. Almost every good game I've had was ultimately ruined by griefers to a percentage of perhaps 70% I'd say. The frequency and impact of the griefer problem cannot be assumed to remain constant or insignificant either.
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Designated builders won't help against eggspammers, right? That's the biggest problem when building as alien.
It will as long as your structures stay alive. But I already though about some way of one-time reserving buildpoints only for designated builders so you wouldn't have to fight noobs before you finish the base. The reservation would be canceled when the reserver dies, switches weapon or he uses all buildpoints he has reserved.
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Perhaps there should be a (silent) report to the DB if someone attempts to deconn a protected building? That we we can still tell if someone was trying to TK.
I do worry that this will just push TKers to the Painsaw/Grenade route?
(Although I seem to remember there was an answer to this involving autokicking)
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KOCOUR-CZ now uses SVN823 TJW with designated builders. Everybody is welcome to visit it and test the new feature. And if you'd like to ask [CAT] - Smoke or [CAT] - Gilmor (server operators) to turn friendly-fire on, do it. It's been turned off because of popular (noob) demand.
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After last night, I'm looking forward to trying a server with this on it. Some freakin unamed kept coming on yaknet and moving all my shit around so it was snipable as hell then kept wasting build points placing turrets in a hall so he could stand on it. Freakin pissed me off. Thankfully, Yaknet seems to always have an admin or two on it and they're good people so the unamed got kicked... 3 times... but still, this should hopefully keep admins from having to stop their killing so they can kick a player.
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KOCOUR-CZ....It's been turned off because of popular (noob) demand.
so much for me playing there :/
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i dont kno how common this is, but i try to decon human structures when they are about to explode (preventing blast damage)
what happens if a protected structure is imminently going to explode?
(note: this doesnt matter for aliens, as far as i kno)
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i dont kno how common this is, but i try to decon human structures when they are about to explode (preventing blast damage)
what happens if a protected structure is imminently going to explode?
Finally something really useful. I'll make structures which are about to explode drop their protection.
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i dont kno how common this is, but i try to decon human structures when they are about to explode (preventing blast damage)
what happens if a protected structure is imminently going to explode?
Finally something really useful. I'll make structures which are about to explode drop their protection.
While your at it, make the same for the anti decon protection when in SD. I got hit by that "feature" in a game not long ago and in SD, you really want to minimise the damage on turrets :/
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While your at it, make the same for the anti decon protection when in SD. I got hit by that "feature" in a game not long ago and in SD, you really want to minimise the damage on turrets :/
You mean the "can't decon anything during SD" thing?
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While your at it, make the same for the anti decon protection when in SD. I got hit by that "feature" in a game not long ago and in SD, you really want to minimise the damage on turrets :/
You mean the "can't decon anything during SD" thing?
Yes, that one.
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I am sorry next, but it doesnt work :(
I mean it works like you wanted, but its useless on the server. Today I tried to be the builder on transit as a human. 3 other idiots wanted to help me by spreading turrets in the big room, deconning reac cover, building armory in the middle of the room, building telenodes instead of turrets, deconning medi and so on ... long story short after I made myselfe dedicated i had to rebuild every single structure again to make it protected from those moronic helpers ... I ended up kicking the guy that kept stealing my BPs to put some lonelly turret in the middle of nowhere :(. 15 minutes of constant fighting with 3 other builders, oh the flustration. One of them almost deconned reac because he had this idea of moving while 2 goons jumped outside of the base, he stopped when I told him Ill kick him.
It just doesnt work too well. Please add !denybuild to the server qvm. Its faster, simplier and just works (the guy you just denied building gets it in no time that ckit no longer works except repair mode and goes to feed instead of stealing your BPs when you want to move something).
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I've just uploaded the patch that removes both DB and SD protection from structures which are about to explode.
rasz, you had to rebuild everything because they put everything in terrible places or because you forgot that you can toggle protection on existing structures by reload key or /protect? Anyway, KOCOUR still doesn't use one very important feature - the permanent designation.
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He said it was because they were using up all BP placing buildings in bad places.
Suggestion : add a !reservebp x command that only the designated builders can use. When done, all the other builders cannot use the last x BPs themselves for the rest of the map.
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rasz, you had to rebuild everything because they put everything in terrible places or because you forgot that you can toggle protection on existing structures by reload key or /protect?
DoH ! :)
but it still lets lame ass newbie turretsitters to steal your BPs when you move stuff just to place that one turret in the middle of the nowhere to sit on it :(
I spend a good 10 mins of that game on running after those idiots deconning useless stuff, running back where I wanted to place telenode and ... running BACK to decon useless shit again, becouse they build it again in the mean time :/
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No it wouldn't, if you wanted to move a turret, you reserve 8 BP before you decon, that way they can't build anything with the spare points.
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Looks like TJW has beaten me to the SD protection thing. TJW SVN821 and above servers protect only structures with health > 0 in SD.
He said it was because they were using up all BP placing buildings in bad places.
That's not a reason to rebuild absolutely everything.
Suggestion : add a !reservebp x command that only the designated builders can use. When done, all the other builders cannot use the last x BPs themselves for the rest of the map.
I thought about that already but I think that when reserved points left drop below 1/total bp below 8 or when all designated builders sell ckit (and all dead designated builders select rifle), the reservation should be cancelled automatically. Also if there're no telenodes and no designated builder with ckit (but at least one designated builder is waiting for class selection or for spawn as builder so reservation cannot be cancelled yet), the reservation should allow at least 10 free bps.
If !reservebp gets no arguments, it should default to reserving all bps available.
Now there's a question, if there's an active reservation and somebody decons something or something is destroyed (ignore solutions 3 and 5), should it add to the reservation? Possible solutions:
1) Always
2) Never
3) Only if the deconner is a designated builder
4) Only if all build points are reserved
5) Only if the deconner is a designated builder and all build points are reserved
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I think it should be something like that : As is is now, it is forbidden to have less than 0 BP left after you build something. When you reserve x points, non dedicated builders are then forbidden to build if there will be less than x points left after they do it. Simple and effective.
Standard usage would proably be to reserve 8 or 10 points for when you need to move a few buildings around, and remove the reservation when you are finished.
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question to all the ppl in this topic but next : have you used !designate ????
I did and it just doesnt work as it should :( I want !denybuild :cry: :cry:
Edit: Its a disaster, griefers build eggs in boxes, outside of the karith map (under) and I cant do shit about it, not only I cant deny building but I dont see "is being build" messages to know who did it.
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I think this is a good idea, but it won't be good in some situations. What if there is some new admin builder and he keeps deconning everything you build, then you get stopped from building cause he wants to do it? Now what if a n00b is yelling at you to stop deconning and you give a reason not to and an admin agrees that what you are doing is better and stops the n00b from building?
Just giving two of my points of view. I hope you get it done soon, it will be interesting on SST. :wink:
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I emailed next_ghost asking for instructions on how to compile it to run on our windows server. If anyone could tell me how to do this, or better yet, provide the exe, that would rock.
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I think this is a good idea, but it won't be good in some situations. What if there is some new admin builder
1 choosing admins is server Ops job
2 have you seen a situation you described? NO, and I suffer every day with lack of !denybuild.
I emailed next_ghost asking for instructions on how to compile it to run on our windows server. If anyone could tell me how to do this, or better yet, provide the exe, that would rock.
not exe, its game.qvm, get a patch from bugzilla and compile
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I emailed next_ghost asking for instructions on how to compile it to run on our windows server. If anyone could tell me how to do this, or better yet, provide the exe, that would rock.
No email has arrived so far. Anyway, the instructions depend on whether you want to use it with TJW or with vanilla SVN824 codebase.
For vanilla SVN824, simply checkout Tremulous SVN (`svn checkout svn://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk` command), grab all non-obsolete attachments from https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2857 and apply them on the sources you've checked out earlier (using `patch -p0 <patchfile` command from trunk/ directory). The big patch should go first, otherwise the patch program will complain about line offsets. Then run `make BUILD_CLIENT=0 BUILD_GAME_QVM=1` again from trunk/ directory. If you want to use TJW's tremded.exe, you can also add 'BUILD_SERVER=0' parameter to the make command. It'll skip files you don't need and save some compilation time. When compilation is over, you'll find your new files in trunk/build/release-something/. You should then follow installation instructions from http://tjw.org/tremulous/SETUP.txt.
For TJW, I'd beter send you complete KOCOUR-CZ patch because using TJW and designated builder together requires some manual changes to the code.
If you have some Linux box around, you should compile the sources there (in that case, you'll HAVE to use TJW's tremded.exe), Windows suck really hard for this kind of work. If you have no Linux box around, you could use Cygwin (http://www.cygwin.com/) to ease the patching and compilation. You'll need Subversion (svn command), Patch (patch command), Make (make command) and GCC, you'll find them among Cygwin packages when you run Cygwin setup.exe. However, I'm not sure if tremded.exe compiled in Cygwin will work outside Cygwin environment.
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Im using TJW on windows server 03. If you could give me a compiled windows version that would be great.
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I have it installed, but i see no denybuild command, only designate and undesignate.
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I have it installed, but i see no denybuild command, only designate and undesignate.
exactly my point :)
PM/@ Chojin for a !denybuild patch
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I have it installed, but i see no denybuild command, only designate and undesignate.
the you will have to ask the alien's wrath people for the !denybuild patch.
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Who? Email address please.
Also, is there any way to see who is a dedicated builder, and to disable the carryover between games?
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Who? Email address please.
Also, is there any way to see who is a dedicated builder, and to disable the carryover between games?
There is no carryover. You have to select a team after mapchange and that will cancel designation even if it was carried over from the last map.
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Who? Email address please.
http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=971
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People keep seeing designation restored messages, even though only level 5s on SST have the # flag.
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Hey guys,
you can find all the patches (including !deny/allowbuild) peoro and me wrote from HERE (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2189).
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Could we get a hybred of the 2 patches, combining denybuild and designate, but keeping the new sd system and new poision.
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People keep seeing designation restored messages, even though only level 5s on SST have the # flag.
KOCOUR-CZ runs exactly the same code right now. Can anyone verify it there?
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I am sorry next, but it doesnt work :(
I mean it works like you wanted, but its useless on the server. Today I tried to be the builder on transit as a human. 3 other idiots wanted to help me by spreading turrets in the big room, deconning reac cover, building armory in the middle of the room, building telenodes instead of turrets, deconning medi and so on ...
Sounds like it's more of a case of n00bitis than anything else. You can't patch and mod and update against that.
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Sounds like it's more of a case of n00bitis than anything else. You can't patch and mod and update against that.
you can, its called !denybuild ...
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Psst, just letting you know I'm quietly testing it for you and so far the new stuff is ok. ;)
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I'm still waiting for some response about !reservebp behaviour (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=25820#25820).
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First, could you add a !listdesignated function, then reservebps?
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New SVN829 patch (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/attachment.cgi?id=1117) is in Bugzilla, designated builders now have 'D' (designated or incognito permanently designated) or 'P' (permanently designated) flag in !listplayers. Designated builders are also notified when somebody tries to decon a protected structure.
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New SVN829 patch (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/attachment.cgi?id=1117) is in Bugzilla, designated builders now have 'D' (designated or incognito permanently designated) or 'P' (permanently designated) flag in !listplayers. Designated builders are also notified when somebody tries to decon a protected structure.
Sweet! GJ whoever did that.
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Can you email me a compiled patch like you did for the earlier version. Now you have updated this, it is EXACTLY what sst needed in the first place.
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next: That alert doesn't seem to be working for me. Unless I've been REAAAALLLLYYY fortunate (ya think? :P) to not see someone deconning the base.....
Could be broke, but I wouldn't have a clue why.
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This is awesome!
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next: That alert doesn't seem to be working for me. Unless I've been REAAAALLLLYYY fortunate (ya think? :P) to not see someone deconning the base.....
Could be broke, but I wouldn't have a clue why.
Be more specific, please. What server, what version of designated builder patch, and most important of all, were you a designated builder when somebody tried to decon something?
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Continuation from here (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2293).
Let's see, when someone reserves 20BP, it means that until the reservation is lifted, non designated builders cannot build anything, unless there is at least 28BP available ( for turrets, medi, DC ) or 30BP available ( for the rest ). This lasts throughout the whole game, no matter what happens until the number of BP reserved is changed. Ie, until you detect a problem ( no designated builder left in the game ) or until a designated builder selects a new value for the "reserved BP" variable.
I'd prefer one-time reservations that get modified by building/deconning and when all reserved points are spent, they get cleared. Map-long reservations should be a special case which has to be explicitly requested when you reserve build points. Map-long reservations should also be absolute, not relative to the total amount of free build points.
The rest of the DB stuff refers to the buildings locked by a designated builder. I suppose that when you decide it is time to unlock all buildings, then you should also reset the "reserved BP" variable to 0, nothing more, nothing less.
Stof, you don't understand the problem. Let's have a few designated builders in a team who either have a gun and can't switch to ckit or they're dead and can't spawn. The only guy with ckit is not a designated builder and there's an active reservation. What should happen now? If nothing happens, this situation creates a denybuild-like construction deadlock which is BAD. Resetting the reservation manually is not an option because it simply takes too long, just like /allowbuild.
And again, what should happen when all designated builders leave or lose designation is obvious.
I (and many others I know) tend to avoid servers with designated builders and protected buildings. Although it takes care of some problems, it creates way too many other issues.
Too often the builder, after base building is complete, takes off to fight, doesn't maintain the base and no one can do anything about it. I've also been on servers where the builder gets a phone call and parks himself in a corner for the rest of the game and no one can do anything about what was already built. This is especially a problem when it comes time to convert some turrets to Teslas or if a move is made at S2.
It's not a big problem now as we just don't go to those servers, but if too many servers adopt this SSM, then I see it becoming more of an issue.
You can /teamvote designate another builder anytime you want. Just don't be lazy and type the damn command in the console. Problem solved.
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Ah ok, I understand better what is the problem :)
Well, in my mind, no designated builder should reserve all BPs anyway. It is more for a small reservation like 8,10 or maybe 20 at max. Thus, it is very probable that in the advent of a desperate situation as you desribe that the reservation wouldn't kick in and thus let anybody build the missing telenodes.
Maybe that's all it takes : limit the max number of buildpoints reserved to 20.
Or put a limit to the reservation effect in duration. Say, no more than 2-3 minutes and then you have to refresh it.
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Well, in my mind, no designated builder should reserve all BPs anyway. It is more for a small reservation like 8,10 or maybe 20 at max. Thus, it is very probable that in the advent of a desperate situation as you desribe that the reservation wouldn't kick in and thus let anybody build the missing telenodes.
Maybe that's all it takes : limit the max number of buildpoints reserved to 20.
Or put a limit to the reservation effect in duration. Say, no more than 2-3 minutes and then you have to refresh it.
That would make the reservations pointless. The purpose of reservation is to keep noobs from building crap while you're busy building something else and there's a lot of free build points (eg. after the other team destroyed half of your base). Any crap. If you limit the reservation to some magic number, the builder will have to find the crap built from build points he couldn't reserve and decon it again.
And the reservation timeout is not a solution. Even 10 seconds of construction deadlock could mean the difference between survival and loss.
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Designated builder binary and patch (TJW and credit share included) is finally hosted on http://kocour.veprov.cz/download. There're 6 links at the bottom of the page:
- complete game.qvm (http://kocour.veprov.cz/dw/src/game.qvm.zip) binary which runs on KOCOUR-CZ
- 3 links to tremded (one for each platform), you don't need that if you have installed TJW already
- SVN871 sources (http://kocour.veprov.cz/dw/src/svn871.zip), the last SVN server release compatible with 1.1.0-based clients
- complete patch for SVN835 (http://kocour.veprov.cz/dw/src/kocour.patch) from which the binary game.qvm was made
English version of that page and modification details will follow later. For installation instructions, see TJW's installation instructions (http://www.tjw.org/tremulous/SETUP.txt).
Edit: Updated links to SVN871 release.
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I hate that patch
admins tend to abuse it
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next_ghost, great post. I agree with everything you said, but I have a different philosophy to your approach: I've long since believed the initial design weakness of tremulous was allowing more than one builder anyways. Just one commander in other mixed RTS/FPS games like "Savage: The Battle for Newerth" worked quite well, for all the problems you already outlined.
If I may, I say:
i. Only allow 1 designated builder each game (or x% amount of builders based on build points). Really, no more than say 2 for even those servers pushing the BP boundaries with 150 or more.
ii. At map start, in this priority make that designate assignment:
(a) Designate from the previous game is assigned that role again for this game.
(b) Query master or host server for regular player names (or GUID) against kick votes (or whatever other determinant) for that player.
(c) Randomly select from a pool of players on each team.
(d) or others.
iii. Immediately after a game starts, team vote can call a server side !allowbuild vote for any one player or the designate himself (even from spec) can !transfer designation to any other player (overriding the prior automatically assigned one).
iv. Most importantly, push spawning players off nodes/eggs automatically so others may spawn (or redesign the spawn interface entirely).
I already know what you're thinking too: what happens when those builders die. Who repairs? Who builds? Well, just reallow the ckit at the armory for all other players until the designate(s) respawn, or even newly spawned humans can grab a ckit if the designate(s) is dead, and a build expiration timer starts for all those other non designates. The same timer starts for non designate aliens who spawn as grangers too. Well, now you understand the importance of a builder (as it should be now with tremulous but isn't). You need to protect him. You need to help him. Shoot, if need be, beef up the blue ckit pringles can to a stasis gun, temporarily imobilizing aliens in base. Likewise, even give s1 grangers a trapper like spit as well. For either stasis addition (on aliens or hums), that defense weapon would only be effective in or around some buildable, like a turret or repeater or egg or whatever.
Otherwise, (like you say) you just have a bunch of players fighting eachother over build points or griefing servers into oblivion. And how many times have we asked in game, "Who's building? Who's repairing?" or "Why isn't anyone building? Why isn't anyone repairing?" Is multiple builders really what makes for fun game play anyways?
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And by the way, !denybuild really isn't too effective, imho. Nor can server operators or admins be on all the time. I say let the players decide who they want as their sole builder. Elect your own king! Power to the people!
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And by the way, !denybuild really isn't too effective, imho. Nor can server operators or admins be on all the time. I say let the players decide who they want as their sole builder. Elect your own king! Power to the people!
that would work, but this is tremulous. most players are stupid.
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Stupid is as stupid does, sir. Tremulous is like a box of chocolates. Sometimes you try them all 'til you find the cherry.
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Bleah, artificial cherry.
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Time for some necromancy exercise.
I've updated designated builder for SVN1006 and mark deconstruct. The patch is here (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/attachment.cgi?id=1520). No precompiled QVMs are available at the moment.
New features:
- two new functions for test for decon/mark/unmark permissions and for permissions to free a marked buildable and use those buildpoints
- UI scripts for use in vote menus (somebody will have to change the menus though)
- mark deconstruct is now abused to prevent buildpoint stealing
When somebody builds useless crap on the other side of map, a designated builder can simply protect it and mark it. Only a designated builder will be able to free those buildables and use the buildpoints then as long as the marked buildable stays protected.
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Oh, damn, I should have uploaded my update of your patch back to bugzilla so you'd find it. It might have saved you some work in the updating-for-svn department. Sorry about that. Glad to see you're still maintaining it.