Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: TyrranzzX on November 15, 2006, 10:26:48 pm
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In short, the aliens win a disproportionate number of games while they aren't any more, or less, skilled than humans are. Simply put, for killcounts the aliens and humans are perfectly matched; for won games, however, the aliens are winning 66% of all games and the humans, 33%. This is because of 3 reasons: First, the maps are not built right, secondly the aliens gain major advantages on large maps due to eggspamming and ammo limits, and finally, the inequality of human and alien superunits at stage 3 in melee combat.
(note, some stats are old, but the percentages only differ by a few tenths at the most. The latest stats reside at www.tremulous.net/balance and are compiled daily.)
1: Both teams are nearly-perfect balanced, kill-for-kill:[/size]
Say I were to gather statistics for how many times each side gained a stage then multiplied S1 stages by 0, S2 by 4 and S3 by 8 to reflect the number of kills per player required to gain that stage, without counting S3 as gaining S2 as well. What would the overall scores be?
Stage 1:
39056 Games ended with Aliens as Stage 1.
47121 games ended with Humans as Stage 1.
Stage 2:
36058 Games ended with Aliens as Stage 2.
30890 Games ended with Humans as Stage 2.
Stage 3:
65261 Games ended with the Aliens as Stage 3.
62364 Games ended with the Humans as Stage 3.
In total:
1288952 points total.
666480 points for the Aliens. (51.170%)
622472 points for the Humans. (48.829%)
Stages Gained:
As a control, what are the percentages for stages gained?
322198 stages gained total:
166580 stages gained by aliens (51.17%)
155618 stages gained by humans (48.829%)
Meaning, if you removed the scorecount due to differences in kills required to gain a stage on differing servers, the difference in percentages is less than 1000th of a percent.
I may not counting the kills gained at stage 1 or after stage 3, which are obviously skewed due to poor map starting positions for the humans and overwhelming winratio's for the alien team at stage 3, but the point remains that every game inbetween points to a very even 52/48 split. If the alien team were truely superior and truely unbalanced, they would be denying the human team far more kills.
In total, I'd call that a very slight balancing discrepancy, not one team being nubbish. The human team are grossing as many kills as the alien team, but for some reason, the alien team is winning a disproportionate number of games.
2: Aliens are winning 66/33% against the humans; how do we know this and where are they winning?[/size]
(http://tremulous.net/balance/Overall.png)
In games ending as a S3 team against a S3 team, a total of 32253 games (26% of the total number of games played), Aliens won 25852 games (80%) and the humans won 6401 games (20%).
In games ending as a S3 team against a S2 team, a total of 27541 games, (22% of the total number of games played), the aliens won 15360 games (55%), and the humans won 12181 games (44%).
In games ending as a S3 team against a S1 team, a total of 20767 games (16% of the total number of games played), The aliens won 11305 games (55%), and the humans won 9462 games (45%).
In games ending as a S2 team against a S1 team, a total of 19386 games (15% of the total games played), the aliens won 12342 games (63%), and the humans won 7044 games (37%).
In games ending as a S1 team against a S1 team, a total of 17652 games (14% of the total number of games played), the aliens won 12431 games (70%) and the humans won 5221 games (30%).
In games ending as a S2 team against a S2 team, a total of 6164 games (4% of the total numbers of games played), the aliens won 3408 games (56%), and the humans won 2756 games (44%).
Gain from it what you will, but overwhelmingly the aliens are winning games more consistantly in S3VS3 and S1VS1 scenario's.
Why?[/size]
1: Compair the S1VS1 win ratio's of map such as ACTS, who's human base has 2 exits and the base is covered by turret fire adaquetly and the same goes for the alien base, to transit, which has 3 telenodes and a reactor, in the open, covered by nothing (same goes for alien base; 1 om in the open and 3 eggs).
Transit: (Victory ratio's at a particluar stage.)
O: Overall, (percentage of total games played on this map end in this way)
A: Aliens, (out of those, this many % aliens won)
H: Humans. (out those, this many % humans won)
S1VS1
O:3111-24%
A:2136-68%
H:975-32%
ACTS:
S1VS1
O:3562-11%
A:2321-65%
H:1241-35%
In other words, 24% of all games played on transit end with both teams at stage 1 and ACTS ends with that being at 11% (The overall average is 14%). Out of those games, 68% end with an alien victory at stage 1 compaired to ACTS's 65% (70% alien win average during S1VS1 overall). What causes this difference? Why is it so likely that the game ends that way and more often yet retains a proportionate win ratio to the overall average?
Because neither base starts with defenses but the aliens move out more readily and are better able to have a presance on such a large map.
You will find that the reason the alien team wins more often at stage 1 is because they are able to more readily able to take advantage of the human teams vulnerability at stage 1 when they start out with a crappy base setup. This skews statistics heavily in my opinion, with the aliens getting a free 70/30 win ratio over the humans. More importantly, a sure-fire sign of the imbalance is when games are won more often below 6 players than otherwise such as on this graph:
(http://tremulous.net/balance/transit_AS1vsHS1.png)
Compair this graph to uncreation,
S1VS1
O:879-11%
A:529-61%
H:350-39%
(http://tremulous.net/balance/uncreation_AS1vsHS1.png)
All graphs spike at lower player numbers naturally due to players leaving when a game is going badly before it is over. However, when they spike a great deal near the bottom, it is an issue with balance at S1VS1 (also notice it's 3% less likely for the game to end in a S1VS1 ratio for uncreation AND it's the least played map). This is because 1 rambo is better able to destory an enemy base with fewer players around than when there are more and therefor, it is more likely the game will end early.
2: Aliens gain advantages on larger maps and humans find hinderances on larger maps.
Stage 3 eggspam is a major problem for the human team. In a 10-on-10 game, if the aliens get their base smashed, 3 or 4 grangers may spawn and begin rapidly spamming both the overmind and eggs. When the human team begins an easter bunny and egg hunt, they have a major problem; they MUST split up to effectivly counter this tactic by continuously saturating the map. They have to check every nook and cranny enough that should an egg spawn, it is killed before it gets itself up. At stage 3, a human in a battlesuit with a lucifer cannon is at a disadvantage against a tyrant in certain areas (hallways and open areas, mainly. Closed in spaces that allow the human to jump and avoid the tyrant makes the tyrant toast)). Therefor, that egg hunt is often stopped before it can be completed by the human team getting picked off 1 by 1 and eventually closed in.
Simply put, there is no counter to eggspam on larger maps.
Additionally, the human team is less able to attack the alien base due to the inability to get there with ammo and is less able, even in groups, to kill larger game with their weapons because each fight they get into wastes more and more ammo and the longer it is between bases, the more likely it is the humans will come into conflicts with the alien team and waste ammo.
3: The game starts, for the most part, even at stage 1 with the humans having advantages in hallways and closed in spaces and the aliens having advantages in wide open areas. In wide open areas, the aliens are better able to sneak up and attack the humans by wallclimbing and may attack from more degree's; as the possibilities of attack diminish to 1 direction, the aliens become easier to kill. On arachnid2, for example, the slow-opening door to the alien base is a perfect example of this issue. A dretch will approach the door, wait dead center and the moment it opens an enterprising human will open fire, killing the dretch. In a hallway, the dretch has a couple of movement opportunities; they can attack from around a corner or on the celieng, they can jump from wall to wall but for the most part they are advancing on the human from 1 direction and retreating in one direction. Same goes for dragoons, balskalisks and marauders.
At stage 2 the advantages humans have in closed in spaces increases with the plasma rifle/helmet/battery pack combo with grenades. In open areas, only their defensive capability is increased and this deals with threats such as zap and gas attacks as well as headchomps. Large aliens such as the dragoon fare very poorly in hallways against humans with the right setups who can aim simply because they are unable to move quickly enough and are big targets. This is best shown on smaller maps such as ACTS and uncreation where the humans will outpace a S1 alien team at S2 massivly and get S3 before the aliens can even get to S2 due to the killcounts. Uncreation, for example, has a S3VS1 and S2VS1 winratio for the humans. The humans win 62% of S2VS1 and 64% of S3VS1 games on uncreation, for example. ACTS shows a similar deviation.
Uncreation:
S2VS1
O:1072-14%
A:47+350=397-38%
H:629+46=675-62%
S3VS1
O:1362-17%
A:21+470=491-36%
H:852+19=871-64%
S3VS2
O:2025-26%
A:147+713=860-42%
H:1083+82=1165-58%
ACTS:
S2VS1
O:1857+2300=4157-13%
A:222+2098=2314-55%
H:1635+202=1837-45%
S3VS1
O:3005+2566=5571-17%
A:114+2459=2573-46%
H:2891+107=2998-54%
S3VS2
O:4213+3454=7667-24%
A:376+3270=3646-47%
H:3837+184=4021-53%
At Stage 3, the humans lose their hallway advantage to the tyrant and maintain very few advantages in open areas. This is best shown by uncreation; due to the closed in hallways, humans must take on tyrants 1-on-1 and they will lose as they cannot charge up quickly enough with a lucifer cannon to get the 2 shots off that are necissary to toast a tyrant at point blank range.
Human bases are most often ajacent to hallways, and therefor getting pinned in at stage 3 is common because they simply cannot concentrate their fire collectivly down a hallway to toast an alien unit. Ranged units which are aligned liniarily do not fire well toward their obliques.
====================
*
RRRRR XXXXXXXXXXXXX
*
====================
The 5 Rangers can fire fine at the * (dretches) but in the X-zone, they block eachothers fire.
More importantly, when overtime sets in, a human team that is unable to move out will be crushed by snipe and tyrant rushes. 1 by 1, turrets dissapear and eventually vital equipment is destroyed. The aliens have a major advantage at stage 3 in that if their overmind is destroyed they can rebuild it and therefor evolve; if the human armory goes down, the human team cannot rebuild it.
What can be done to rebalance tremulous?
1: Change the starting locations and configurations of the alien and human teams. Minimally a human base should have enough to stop a dretch rush and the aliens should be notified well in advance that their base is under attack before the first eggs go down.
2: The Overmind takes the combined time of a reactor, medistation and armory to build (basically, 4 times what it takes right now) and gets a HP boost to 1500HP (now being much more important than it was before). In OT the buildime of the overmind is doubled again, to 8 times what it is now (to properly equate it to the loss of a medistation and armory during OT). Meaning, when it goes down, you had better have a plan for defending the remaining sections of your base until it gets back up. This stops the spamming of the overmind, and requires the alien team to actually defend their base but also gives them more time to get to the overmind to defend it.
3: Reactor and Overmind spawn with 25% health already established, and all other buildings spawn with 10% of their health. This reduces the chances of a single dretch or spawn human destroying a newly establishing base and killing a game before it has started.
4: The battlesuits cost is increased to 450, the battlesuit gains radar and certain weapons gain 1.25 times the amount of carrying capacity. For clip based ammo weapons, this goes into the clip size; for energy-based clip-fed weapons this goes into the clip count. For belt-fed ammo based weapons this increases the belt size; for energy-resivour based weapons this does nothing:
Pain Saw: Nothing.
Blaster: Nothing.
Rifle: 40 round mag, 6 mags.
Shotgun: 10 round mag, 3 mags.
Las Driver: 200 round feed.
Mass Driver: 5 Round Mag, 5 mags.
Chaingun: 375 Round feed.
Flame Thrower: 190 round feed.
Pulse Rifle: 40 round magazine, 5 mags.
Luci Cannon: 90 round feed.
This should end most of the stage 3 ammo issues on larger maps and properly equate the tyrant to the battlesuit. Tyrants and advanced dragoons have the advantage of retaining their radar and therefor, a battlesuit has a major disadvantage if a tyrant can both hear and see the direction of the incoming human and counter the implied direction of their gun. Additionally, during end-game egg hunts, tyrants must now be afraid of locked and loaded battlesuits that can see them, as supposed to helmet/light armor toting search parties or guys with jetpacks.
5: The range of the tyrant is reduced 15%. A tyrant has a rediculous arm range when it is fighting; long enough to dodge fire from lucifer cannons and pulse rifles while landing hits. A 15% reduction would require the tyrant to dance much more tightly.
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1.) sure, why not? but u would have to get all the mappers in trem to do this
2.) no
3.)yes
4.)no and yes, it depends
5.) idk wut u mean
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1) Yes but like mentioned already, this is a Mapping issue rather then a game-play issue.
2) No. While the Om is the equal of a Reac, DC, Armo it also is only ! object and that can be sawn very easily and quickly.
OM is also a lot easier to kill compared to the Reac.
3) Yes. A dretch or a bad basi should not be able to kill the new, building reac like it's a turret.
4) Yes. Currently, the Bsuit is a shell that when combine with a chaingun is only good for chasing semi dead Tyrants and Goons.
I prefer Helmet/armor simply because I can pack up more ammo and can see where the aliens are before they notice me.
Remember that the Bsuit dies after 3 Tyrant swipes or 4 goon swipes.
Not my idea of a battle suit.
5) I could do 15% less range but I doubt it will make much difference with strong tyrant players. In some cases I appreciate the range (ledge camping humans thinking they can't be hit or the random rising jettard)
but I could really do the same overall damage with reduced range.
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Yes to all but number 2.
The Overmind, although it could use a small hit point buff, does not need these drastic changes.
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So, no changes for aliens?
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in my opinion, these would solve most if not all balance problems:
1) automatically use auto-select when joining a team
2) get the humans to attack as a team--dont you think that a few bsuits with non-lucis and a jetpacker with a luci could take down pretty much any alien?
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in my opinion, these would solve most if not all balance problems:
1) automatically use auto-select when joining a team
2) get the humans to attack as a team--dont you think that a few bsuits with non-lucis and a jetpacker with a luci could take down pretty much any alien?
number 1 automatically gets a nono
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in my opinion, these would solve most if not all balance problems:
1) automatically use auto-select when joining a team
2) get the humans to attack as a team--dont you think that a few bsuits with non-lucis and a jetpacker with a luci could take down pretty much any alien?
1: No.
2: how does a lucy jetpack help to kill anything? It's a melee weapon after all, and will probably a) kill the b-suits or b) harm nothing.
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Hmm lets see, Humans have weapons that have near infinite range, and are hitscan. The lucifer cannon does 250 in one shot, the most a tyrant claw does to an equiv human is 33 health.
Doesnt seem fair to me.
Aliens win more because they are harder, and more expirenced players play alien. When all the old players go hummie, no alien stands a chance.
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yeah, don't mess with the overmind build times. As the maps aren't big enough that humans won't find it before its built.
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Aliens win more because they are harder, and more expirenced players play alien. When all the old players go hummie, no alien stands a chance.
If you would take the time to read what I wrote, you'd find I'v statistically disprooven this statement because if they were more experienced, they'd be getting more kills. Instead what happens is experienced players play both sides, switching teams back and forth when they get board of one playstyle. Additionally, they cannot select their team 100% of the time; they either wait for someone to go on the opposing team and hope they hit the bind key faster than someone else, or they go on whatever team needs players. It's not like they magically can switch to the alien team.
The problem is that killcount doesn't seem to have much correlation to winning games, overall. The problem is, primarily, the maps need tweaking and the game mechanics need some rebalancing.
Also, you guys seem to dislike #2 for some reason. You do realize, in the current state, the overmind is nearly invulnerable on a large map because it can be spammed and forgotten about? That's the main problem; as it is right now you don't have to worry about defending the overmind; with these changes you would.
If you leave your overmind in an indefensable spot, your team deserves to lose; there are plenty of spaces on various maps where it can be placed where it can be defended by 2-3 acid tubes and a trapper or two. If you think a pain-saw rush works 100% of the time you're an idiot; all it takes is 1 trapper and an acid tube and the rusher is screwed. More importantly, the overmind will take almost twice as long to kill with a pain saw which means a rusher has to deal with being beat on by the overmind and acid tubes twice as long.
By increasing the build time and hitpoints, the overmind takes more rounds to kill and is much less a liability in most defensive setups. Additionally, early on it can no longer be killed by a single marine and 6 clips of rifle ammo whereas in it's current state it takes around 4 full mags to do it, and the regen rate would be such it'd take nearly forever with a blaster. Not to mention plasma rifles with battery packs and nades or the dreaded luci cannon with nade rush; you've got nearly twice as long to get the heck back to your base and kill the rusher. All it takes is for a guy to unload 1 full battery-pack enhanced clip of plasma rifle ammo into an overmind and hit it with a nade and it's toast. With 1500HP, you'd have to reload, twice and use the nade and on a luci cannon, you'd need to charge up and fire 7 250HP shots and hit to kill it; that's 70 ammo. It'd be better to hunt eggs than the om.
The overmind would take a coordinated attack to kill by the human team with 1 or 2 defenders. Ammo becomes a precious commodity for killing the overmind, and while there are a few very effective anti-building weapons, you've got to realize that for one rambo to kill the overmind in light armor with a battery pack would be difficult due to the need to wait around and reload, and for a battlesuit it'd be difficult due to ammo restrictments and time. If a coordinated rush came in the alien team would absolutely have to defend it, especially during stage 3. Failure to do so would be like the humans losing their reactor with a stage 2 or 3 alien team bearing down on them; It'd be a maricle if they survived.
Similarily, with the reactor, if you move it during a point of the game when you need it, you'll also very likely lose.
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the regen rate would be such it'd take nearly forever with a blaster.
Nothing regens while taking damage... You should miss with 2/3 shots to allow buildings to regen.
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If you would take the time to read what I wrote, you'd find I'v statistically disprooven this statement because if they were more experienced, they'd be getting more kills.
On what do you base that? Getting kills is not the same as having skill.
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The lucifer cannon does 250 in one shot, the most a tyrant claw does to an equiv human is 33 health.
for the 250 dmg you first have to charge it up and lead the silly tyrant so as to hit it and at least scare it, while the silly tyr doesn't need to charge his swipe(maul?) giving him time to make 2 swipes and a dodge and let the ever-present noob dretch that follows the good tyrs a chance to bite the silly bsuit.
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If you would take the time to read what I wrote, you'd find I'v statistically disprooven this statement because if they were more experienced, they'd be getting more kills.
On what do you base that? Getting kills is not the same as having skill.
So skill means what, raving with a granger? Your arguement lacks both logic and substance.
Noobius"] The lucifer cannon does 250 in one shot, the most a tyrant claw does to an equiv human is 33 health.
for the 250 dmg you first have to charge it up and lead the silly tyrant so as to hit it and at least scare it, while the silly tyr doesn't need to charge his swipe(maul?) giving him time to make 2 swipes and a dodge and let the ever-present noob dretch that follows the good tyrs a chance to bite the silly bsuit.
Basically, the reason for that tweak is that in an endgame situation, it shouldn't take 2-3 tyrants to take out a battlesuit, nor should it take 2-3 battlesuits with luci cannons to take out a tyrant. Such a balancing idea is rediculous because it requires one team to invest large quantities of resources in maintaining and killing one unit in an unreliable fashon.
More importantly, this situation, where it takes a team of battlesuit wearing weapon wielding guys to reliably kill tyrants, doesn't scale well. If you have 3 or 4 battlesuits with say, luci cannons against 3 or 4 tyrants it isn't an even match simply because of the limitation on line of sight weapons and the tyrants ability to dodge a luci cannon shot in melee combat.
Tyrants gains a major advantage against humans in hallways because they have enough range on their primary swipe to both dodge human fire and swipe at the same time. Human mobility is limited to running and jumping, and with the long reach it is easy to anticipate and hit the target. This allows them to dodge luci cannon shots because the shot goes slow enough that at maximum swipe range they can move out of the way in a large enough of a hallway; this is why for a map such as tremor the luci cannon is a poor weapon choice for the upper area, but in the basement it's a great weapon choice for dealing with a tyrant.
The point is that the humans lose their advantage in hallways that they steadily gain over the alien team going from stage 1 to 2 and 3, and that loss is entirely due to the tyrant; stage 2v2, 1v2, 1v3 and 2v3 are pretty much evenly balanced for both sides. It's the 1V1 and 3V3 stats that are unbalanced; the humans are actually getting into S2VS3 situations where they are ontop and win almost as often as the alien team is and that indicates, overwhelmingly, that Stage 1 and 2 are pretty well balanced.
Reduce the swipe range ever so slightly, and you force the tyrant to be more skillful in how they move around against battlesuits. More importantly, the tyrant will know that if they don't lay down 3 swipes on a battlesuit before it can get off 2 shots, it'll be very much so dead. There is a counter to battlesuits with luci cannons, it's called the marauder.
I would also reccomend ending luci spam as another change. There is no point to it, really.
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You are quite the dumb fellow, seriously. Your barrage of statistics does not impress me, nor anyone else. Maybe be you should play Tremulous, instead of look at it's statistics, since they are false. Lack of player skill still ruins the stats.
[edit] omg typo hunt
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If you would take the time to read what I wrote, you'd find I'v statistically disprooven this statement because if they were more experienced, they'd be getting more kills.
On what do you base that? Getting kills is not the same as having skill.
So skill means what, raving with a granger? Your arguement lacks both logic and substance.
No, your arguments miss logic and substance. Could you please make any valid arguments for you claim that kills are the same as skill. If you can do that, I will admit you're right. If you can't, you will admit I'm right. Sounds reasonable to you? It's basic logic.
Bear in mind you are the one making the claim and because of that you are the one who should bring proof.
Specially for you, because you're such an idiot, some light reading after which we can safely resume this conversation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument
(I could go and find all the stuff you need, but I'm sure you can figure it out)
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Skill is used to achieve goals; therefor the achievement of such goals is an application of skill which may be measured if data is collected.
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The goal of tremulous is not to kill enemy as much as possible but to kill their spawns and the players. According to your information the aliens succeed more and are therefore more skilled.
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The goal of tremulous is not to kill enemy as much as possible but to kill their spawns and the players. According to your information the aliens succeed more and are therefore more skilled.
According to my data 2 things are occuring:
1: S1VS1 victories change with great variation depending on the map. This is because more maps start out with the human team at a disadvantage with base defenses. This skews S1VS1 statistics heavily.
Examples:
ATCS:
Aliens start with 5 acid tubes, 2 eggs and an OM with all entrances covered. The humans start with 3 turrets, an armory, 2 telenodes and a reactor covering them with no turret cover for the reactor, armory or telenodes.
S1VS1
O:3562-11%
A:2321-65%
H:1241-35%
Uncreation: Humans start with 4 turrets with the reactor and 2 telenodes all covered. Aliens start with an overmind, 2 eggs, a barricade and 4 acid tubes with every nook and cranny-entrance covered.
S1VS1
O:879-11%
A:529-61%
H:350-39%
Transit
Aliens and humans start with 3 spawns and a reactor/om apiece. The aliens spawns are hidden and require a drop-down to get to with their shortest route, and the human spawns are in the wide open with 1 covered by the reactor.
S1VS1
O:3111-24%
A:2136-68%
H:975-32%
Tremor:
The human team starts out with a reactor, 3 telenodes, an armory, 2 turrets covering the automatic-door exit and one turret covering the back entrance hallway.
The aliens start with 1 barricade and 1 acid tube per entrance, an overmind, and 3 eggs.
Both teams have a good deal of cover for both ends.
S1VS1
O:2430-12
A:1732-70
H:698-30
Niveus:
The human team starts out with a Reactor, 3 turrets, a medistation and armory, and 3 telenodes. Their main base is in a wide open area with 3 large exits which nets them advantages in s1 and s2 if they place their equipment right.
The alien team starts out with an Overmind, 3 eggs and 3 acid tubes. The overmind is in an exposed position, as is all of the eggs and acid tubes and the base is often moved elsewhere instead of leaving it to where it is.
S1VS1
2346-12
1401-59
865-41
*Victories increase exponentially as playercount drops below 4 for both teams.
Nexus 6
Humans start with a Reactor, armory and medipad and 3 turrets. The Aliens start with 2 eggs, an overmind on the bottom floor and a barricade and acid tube at each entrance.
S1VS1
2000-12
1593-79
407-21
Arachnid 2
The human base starts with 3 telenodes, 1 reactor, 5 turrets 4 of which cover 2 entrances and the other which covers the base, and an armory. The reactor top, armory, and 1 telenode have no cover. The alien base starts with 3 eggs, an om, and 5 acid tubes 2 of which cover the ramps, one of which covers a back entrance, and the last 2 cover the om on the platform.
S1VS1
O2621-14%
A1942-74%
H679-26%
There is a pattern here. When neither base has cover; the incidence of the game ending as a S1VS1 situation increases. When both bases have cover, the incidince of a S1VS1 situation decreases. When one side or another has poor cover or no cover, the incidence of a S1 Victory for the side with better cover increases. I am argueing that the alien base has better cover more often partially because the aliens are better able to return to the base when it's under duress and partially because the humans start out with relitivally bad cover and most maps some or all of their equipment has no cover.
In other words, the aliens are not winning more often in that scenario because they are skilled. They are winning more often because they are skillless llamas that exploit default base defense weaknesses. Therefor, only if you consider dretch rushing on transit skilled would your arguement be completly valid.[/b]
2: S3VS3 win situations are heaviy skewed by map size due to a number of factors.
Case in point:
Arachnid 2: Large map.
S3VS3
O:4070-23%
A:3289-80%
H:781-20%
Nexus 6: Medium-large sized map, all corridores and few open areas.
S3VS3
O:5030-31%
A:4335-86%
H:695-14%
Transit: Largest map in the game.
S3VS3
O:2249-18%
A:1897-84%
H:352-16%
(26% of the time overall, the game ends as S3VS3. The 8% lost here was entirely gained by S1VS1 jumping from 14% overall to 24% overall.)
Niveus: Medium-large sized map entirely made up of corridores.
S3VS3
5303-28
4385-82
918-18
*82/12 split unaffected by game size.
ATCS: Small map, 0-shaped configuration.
S3VS3
O:8631-27%
A:6330-73%
H:2301-27%
Uncreation: Small map, closed in hallways, figure-8 shape.
S3VS3
O:1836-24%
A:1349-73%
H:487-27%
Why does map size affect win ratio's? Because aliens can
A: Effectivly spam and hide buildings on larger maps. As a map increases in size, more work is required to search every nook and cranny for alien buildings. When this occures during stage 3, since most games occur with fewer than 20 players per side, the human team must, in order to effectivly counter the spam, split up and search. Especially in games with 16 or 12 players, the humans are not running around in groups and therefor, will come into encounters with tyrants and adv dragoons. More importantly they will be likely running around in Light armor with a helmet since that drastically increases the likelyhood of spotting and killing spammed buildings and it takes far less health and effort to kill that kind of a unit than a battlesuit.
B: Run the humans down as they rush for an attack in a group. Once the location of a rushing group is known, the aliens will send units to attack the rush to stop and use guerilla tactics wear down the ammo stock of the units in the group. 1 dretch can draw a lot of fire. As they are drawn further out, they are surrounded and retreating to the base to get health or ammo as a single unit becomes suicide.
I don't believe most people on the forums consider it skill to eggspam.
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Again, all your arguements are based solely on the fact that most Tremulous players just plain suck at this game. Therefore you entire statistic spam is irrelevant. I'll say it once again, the Aliens are not the strongest team, the Humans are. If there is something that needs to be balanced, it's the overly strong Humans, or even better, the brains of most Tremulous players, including your own brains.
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Perhaps the answer is not to buff/nerf the teams for balance, but to buff/nerf the human team to encourage teamwork.
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In my experience, the people who contribute most to match victory are not those with the most kills. If the stats allow you to identify specific players, can you chart winningest players vs team and number of kills?
For example, on SST there are some highly skilled players who are only there for number of kills, and really do not care if their teams wins.
It seems to me that the people who contribute most to victory have few kills because they build well and often.
Maybe you could chart winningest players vs time in builder roles?
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The problem with the graph is that it is just a graph. It doesn't mean anything other than its a graph. Instead of asking 'What could this graph be saying'....people are somehow started reading 'Nerf Tyrants' or 'Humans are noobs' from the data. If anything, data needs to be tracked on specific incidents instead of showing wins and loss and trying to decipher the game's balance from it.
I would like to see Tyrant's kills vs deaths to battlesuits and specific weapons vs deaths to Turret/tesla damage. That would be more informative than a pure win/loss graph.
In my experience, the people who contribute most to match victory are not those with the most kills. If the stats allow you to identify specific players, can you chart winningest players vs team and number of kills?
For example, on SST there are some highly skilled players who are only there for number of kills, and really do not care if their teams wins.
It seems to me that the people who contribute most to victory have few kills because they build well and often.
Maybe you could chart winningest players vs time in builder roles?
I don't really agree with that too much. Building isn't as active as fighting. A bad builder is always a problem but other than that, its really shades of gray in terms of what 'builder contribution' is. A good builder in some cases is just sitting around doing nothing because no one is coming to the base.
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It seems to me that the people who contribute most to victory have few kills because they build well and often.
Maybe you could chart winningest players vs time in builder roles?
Not really. I avoid building because more often than not, the humans can win with a poor base, but the humans cannot with with a good base and no good attacker.
Also, in my experience the player with the most kills always was one of the most useful player in the game. Kills are the essence of Tremulous since they are the main source of cash, they are the source of new tech and they deprive the opponent of it's fighting power. The only situations where a low kill player was decisive is for s1 vs s1 human win by egg rush while disregarding your own health, and a builder who waits until stage 3 to attack and tips the balance at that point by adding one more player with expensive equipment/evolve.
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tldr
#1 problem with trem is a problem that every online team based shooter has, and has no resolve.
team stacking
that and ppl being reckless and feeding kills to the other team like a motherfucker.
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tldr
#1 problem with trem is a problem that every online team based shooter has, and has no resolve.
team stacking
that and ppl being reckless and feeding kills to the other team like a motherfucker.
Which in turn renders the statistics pretty useless for determining wether Tremulous is balanced or not.
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Not really. I avoid building because more often than not, the humans can win with a poor base, but the humans cannot with with a good base and no good attacker.
Also, in my experience the player with the most kills always was one of the most useful player in the game.
Bullshit. At least at the servers with default build points having a well built base is the only way to win as human. If the base isn't properly done it will be destroyed 1 minute after they make s3. I think it's not the same with aliens tho, which is a shame.
I use to constaly make into top 3 killers when I play soldier, but many times I have to dedicate to build cause I see the defeat coming.
For winning against a decent team you need both good offense and good defense.
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Bullshit. At least at the servers with default build points having a well built base is the only way to win as human. If the base isn't properly done it will be destroyed 1 minute after they make s3. I think it's not the same with aliens tho, which is a shame.
I use to constaly make into top 3 killers when I play soldier, but many times I have to dedicate to build cause I see the defeat coming.
You know, you do NOT have to wait for aliens to reach s3 before winning the game. A moderatly well defended base is enouth for that. And in the case were the builder is really clueless, it is much easier to tell him what to do now and then than spend the important part of the game building a perfect base and end up in a stage 1 vs Tyrants kind of situation.
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You know, you do NOT have to wait for aliens to reach s3 before winning the game.
I assume both teams are skilled enough to have a interesting game. If I can rush them easy then I try to find better challenge.
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You know, you do NOT have to wait for aliens to reach s3 before winning the game.
I assume both teams are skilled enough to have a interesting game. If I can rush them easy then I try to find better challenge.
I'll continue. You know, there is something between stage 1 and stage 3. It's called stage 2 and it is when humans have to win the game. They can reach stage 3 if they want but doing so should only happen as a byproduct of completly owning the alien base with stage 2 tech.
If your definition of interesting game is everybody on stage 3 with humans stuck for 40 minutes in their base by hordes of tyrants until they manage a lucky counter attack or SD catches them cold, then we do not have the same notion of what is an interesting game ;)
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1) What?
2) what?
3) What?
4) Huh?
5) what the...?
6) What's going on damnit!
You lost me after you started using numbers. Don't get me wrong, it seems like important, tedious work, but couldn't you spend your time a better way, like actually playing Tremulous a bit more? :P
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You are quite the dumb fellow, seriously. Your barrage of statistics does not impress me, nor anyone else. Maybe be you should play Tremulous, instead of look at it's statistics, since they are false. Lack of player skill still ruins the stats.
[edit] omg typo hunt
How are the stats false...? Are you saying they somehow lie?
All of you saying aliens win more because they have the skilled players are ignorant.
1) Statistically if you flip a coin a few times it may seem heads comes up more, flip it many times and it will come up roughly the same for both sides. Sure the aliens may get stacked teams for a few games, but it would be impossible that all skilled players pick aliens every time.
2) If these skilled players only play aliens (as you say), then there must be some players that only play humans. Given that they both devote the same time to their respective sides, why are the human experts failing against the alien experts? Could that show some flaw in the games learning curve for both sides? And aren't the humans supposed to be the easier to learn?
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All the stats show are tendancies for one side or another to be unbalanced, and because those stats change from map-to-map, and each map is different, you can come to some basic conclusions about where the game is rough and where it isn't.
They take into account skill, teamstacking, uneven teams; the whole shebang accept for a few points which I pointed out. Saying they don't is illogical since every game has been accounted for; computers don't discriminate.
And sure, we can go on and on about what skill is until the sun grows silent, but the fact of the matter is, skilled players are there for one thing, and that thing is fun. What they do with their time depends on what they feel they're upto; some build, others fight, and still others sneak into the enemy base with a jetpack, nade and painsaw and start taking down eggs. What it comes right down to is that no matter how perfect your base is, no matter how many eggs you chop down, and no matter how many kills you manage to get, if your team sucks relative to their team, you're going to lose. Everyone contributes, and anyone can be the point of failure for a team.
It is nice to see I'm not fighting a horde of zombies who have an incapacity to use reason in their day-to-day activities. :X
Aside from that, a few things to note.
Mappers wouldn't have to heavily edit their maps; they'd have to place their buildings in slightly different spots; it's something that'd take 30 minutes, max, per map to do and anyone can do it, even server admins and the maps would remain serverside.
Most of the changes I'v proposed are easy to make; there's no major time investment necissary accept for editing a few values in a few files. Nothing is added, nothing is subtracted. Anyone with a server can impliment them and see what happens.
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How are the stats false...? Are you saying they somehow lie?
All of you saying aliens win more because they have the skilled players are ignorant.
1) Statistically if you flip a coin a few times it may seem heads comes up more, flip it many times and it will come up roughly the same for both sides. Sure the aliens may get stacked teams for a few games, but it would be impossible that all skilled players pick aliens every time.
2) If these skilled players only play aliens (as you say), then there must be some players that only play humans. Given that they both devote the same time to their respective sides, why are the human experts failing against the alien experts? Could that show some flaw in the games learning curve for both sides? And aren't the humans supposed to be the easier to learn?
Stats never "lie", there are just various ways to interpret them.
As far as i can see more experienced players tend to see the humans as the stronger part (me too), maybe just think a few minutes why it is mainly the new/inexperienced ppl that complain about aliens being to strong.
concerning
1)
may i suggest attending a probability theory lecture? what you wrote is just plain stupid.
2)
as people get more experienced they tend to play aliens instead of humans, that is at least what i observed
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Aliens win more because they are harder, and more expirenced players play alien. When all the old players go hummie, no alien stands a chance.
If you would take the time to read what I wrote, you'd find I'v statistically disprooven this statement because if they were more experienced, they'd be getting more kills. Instead what happens is experienced players play both sides, switching teams back and forth when they get board of one playstyle. Additionally, they cannot select their team 100% of the time; they either wait for someone to go on the opposing team and hope they hit the bind key faster than someone else, or they go on whatever team needs players. It's not like they magically can switch to the alien team.
False. I always get more kills as human instead of playing aliens. You can simply take more down as a human, but only kills doesn't count in this game. Also, I prefer aliens, like many other experienced gamers. And it's there is really no ballance issue:
If I join Aliens, they win most of the game (as long as there aren't too many newbies in the team). Same is for Humans. If I join them, they'll win most of the games. It's all about skill, most humans simply don't attack the aliens' base. I always try to even take OM down in S1 (everytime with painsaw), and most of the time it works. If not in S1, then in S2 or S3.
For more statistics on this, see here:
http://tremstats.dasprids.de/player_details.php?player_id=13
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NOTE : i didnt read all the posts /NOTE
The Overmind Argument :
I personally dont think increase OM time and hp to that length is a good idea, but i would think that the aliens should depend on OM more. A suggestion i have is that alien regernation stops when OM is down, this will help alot of egg hunts and mara, tyrant hunts. It makes more sense for a human to rush against a OM, because in current tremulous, good players go for eggs because they knew, even if OM down, the aliens still fight just as good with or without OM.
battlesuit problem:
the battlesuit is never designed to go against tyrants, its more for suicide rushing against s2 aliens. The game is designed to give the human upper hand when they get s2 and aliens in s1 and s3.
Why aliens win more than Human
the biggest problem i see is that the human HAVE to go IN TEAMS, whereas aliens dont.
In most trem games, there are usually 1 or 2 really good players in each team, but 1 or 2 good humans isnt good enough to completely wipe out aliens against decent alien teams, whereas all it takes is 1 good aliens to call reac down/ nodes down/ turrets down / DC down to end the human team
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the biggest problem i see is that the human HAVE to go IN TEAMS, whereas aliens dont.
In most trem games, there are usually 1 or 2 really good players in each team, but 1 or 2 good humans isnt good enough to completely wipe out aliens against decent alien teams, whereas all it takes is 1 good aliens to call reac down/ nodes down/ turrets down / DC down to end the human team
But... aliens do teamplay! It consists in making turns to attack the human base so they don't block each other :P
Why aliens win more than Human
I honestly think this is just because sudden death is an all alien thing. By SD time humans might know of a bunch of egg placements, but most likely don't know all, so attacking is uncertain, while aliens have very clear where they have to inflict damage to get the win. Also, once the armory is lost, humans can't upgrade anymore, while aliens can rebuild om and keep upgrading until the last egg is destroyed. This ends in Tyrants vs rifles situation, which is clearly unbalanced.
I don't think aliens in s3 are any superior to humans either, but aliens most likely can have an scape where humans don't. Don't let them build eggs too far of om (I don't mean as short as for humans, but limited) and it will work much better.
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How are the stats false...? Are you saying they somehow lie?
All of you saying aliens win more because they have the skilled players are ignorant.
1) Statistically if you flip a coin a few times it may seem heads comes up more, flip it many times and it will come up roughly the same for both sides. Sure the aliens may get stacked teams for a few games, but it would be impossible that all skilled players pick aliens every time.
2) If these skilled players only play aliens (as you say), then there must be some players that only play humans. Given that they both devote the same time to their respective sides, why are the human experts failing against the alien experts? Could that show some flaw in the games learning curve for both sides? And aren't the humans supposed to be the easier to learn?
Stats never "lie", there are just various ways to interpret them.
As far as i can see more experienced players tend to see the humans as the stronger part (me too), maybe just think a few minutes why it is mainly the new/inexperienced ppl that complain about aliens being to strong.
concerning
1)
may i suggest attending a probability theory lecture? what you wrote is just plain stupid.
2)
as people get more experienced they tend to play aliens instead of humans, that is at least what i observed
Sigh. Sure, anything is possible. I don't live my daily life thinking tha absurd however. And it is absurd to think skilled players go aliens every time. Statistically you play enough games and the skill level should level out. Why is that so hard to believe?
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Another problem is that when the humans attack and start pwning in Stage 2, half the attack force turns around and heads back the second they hit Stage 3.
Then the good players eventually get overwhelmed and the noobs are the only ones with any money.
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1: Singles Vs Teams.
The primary issue with the consept of the humans being more powerful in teams and the aliens being more powerful in 1-on-1 is that not only does it make small game counts favor the aliens, but it also makes large game counts favor the humans, exclusivly. Additionally, it forces smaller maps to be favored by humans because the proximitry of the bases forces clogs in hallways which, in turn, would favor the humans. Large, spider-web like maps would favor the aliens because they would be more apt to attack single exploring players who are trying to locate eggspam or the alien installation.
This would be true 100% of the time, if and only if the humans didn't run out of ammo so darn quick. That's a major part of why they lose S3VS3 on large maps; you run into 2 or 3 guerilla attacks as a team and you're out.
It reminds me of an old RTS game called Total Annihilation whereas the ARM had the best bang-for-buck with level 1 units and therefor, was better able to rush the Core base during earlier stages and take territory during early stages of the game. One tank, the flash tank, was extremly effective on medium sized maps because you could rush the core and deprive them of resources.
Once the Core hit Level 2 units, the Arm was severly outgunned by the Cores larger tanks and better offensive structures. Between 2 evenly pitted players on a medium sized map inwhich both sides were identical, the core would win more often than not because of the better units.
More importantly, no game that anyone has played revolved strictly around teamplay; tribes is one such example of one of the most challenging game series out there and it strictly wasn't teamplay. Teamplay is important, but shouldn't be required to be in pubs. If it is, then a GUI such as what planetside has or even the voice chat system natrual selection has is required to give the team needing to organize a chance to do so.
2:
the battlesuit is never designed to go against tyrants, its more for suicide rushing against s2 aliens. The game is designed to give the human upper hand when they get s2 and aliens in s1 and s3.
Then how do you stop 5 tyrants in a 5V5 game?
You can't, that's the problem. You don't know where they are, and if you did, then you'd have to go at them 1 by 1. When the aliens have 5 tyrants, and the humans 5 battlesuits with luci cannons or whatever weapon the wielder wants, they still can't win against that many tyrants unless they're all coming from one direction. Then you can pretty much rifle them down 1 by 1 with 5 players. in an open area you're screwed.
The tyrants know where you are and are going to come in wave after wave and kick your butt. You can try defending, but in OT you're going to get bogged down and killed.
If I join Aliens, they win most of the game (as long as there aren't too many newbies in the team). Same is for Humans. If I join them, they'll win most of the games. It's all about skill, most humans simply don't attack the aliens' base. I always try to even take OM down in S1 (everytime with painsaw), and most of the time it works. If not in S1, then in S2 or S3.
You would imply that if you played against a team of skilled players, you'd always have the same outcome.
Did I mention the stats quoted includes all games played, including all scenario's whereas the humans/aliens were stacked and were even?
Another problem is that when the humans attack and start pwning in Stage 2, half the attack force turns around and heads back the second they hit Stage 3.
Then the good players eventually get overwhelmed and the noobs are the only ones with any money.
Usually the attack force turns around due to running out of ammo and the aliens really don't re-establish themselves. More importantly, if one team is near S3 then the other team usually is as well, and that means they have as many kills and therefor as many credits or evo points as the other to invest.
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Don't get me wrong, your stats may well prove that aliens win more games to to balancing issues and whatnot.
However, i assume these statistics are based on a normal day-to-day pick up game as opposed to a more serious game between groups of skilled players that understand how to play effectively. In said games, the humans tend to have the potential to destroy aliens with only a small bit of coordination. It really dosent take much focus fire to take down even the largest targets on the alien team. And yes, the humans outnumber the aliens in this situation, but that is the point. Not often are humans facing more than two or three large aliens at one time. So, teamwork is the key to humans victory. And teamwork is most likely not going to be found in any large degree in a normal game.
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Don't get me wrong, your stats may well prove that aliens win more games to to balancing issues and whatnot.
However, i assume these statistics are based on a normal day-to-day pick up game as opposed to a more serious game between groups of skilled players that understand how to play effectively. In said games, the humans tend to have the potential to destroy aliens with only a small bit of coordination. It really dosent take much focus fire to take down even the largest targets on the alien team. And yes, the humans outnumber the aliens in this situation, but that is the point. Not often are humans facing more than two or three large aliens at one time. So, teamwork is the key to humans victory. And teamwork is most likely not going to be found in any large degree in a normal game.
During the TremLeague, Aliens won every single game. Aliens can teamwork too you know. And when you say that the human team has the potential to destroy the alien base with a little teamwork, I'll retort that each alien has the potential to destroy the human base alone at stage 1.
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Lol damn u Stof. But seriously, i was not aware of the TremLeague Alien ownage, if i was i more than likely would not have even posted this. My past post was based on personal experience, and i apologize for my ignorance.
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How about NO!!! :x :evil: This idea is so retarded, the reason aliens always win, is because (most of the time) new people tend to go to the human team because, in game quote, "Alien team suks".
P.S. Humans lost that game.
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Aliens win cause sudden death is unbalanced.
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It actually might be because humans are HARDER to play than alliens.
I know, this sounds ridiculous but hear me out:
What does alliens needes to learn to because a decent player: headbite/aim
yes, once u master the headbite, alliens becomes very easy to play. Now, if we compare the pros, the only noticeable difference is probably how they move and able to predict enemy movement, but the basic principle is the same, aim for the head, simple.
What does humans need to learn to get out the newb stage:
1) aim
2) movement/dodge/dance
3) timing ( know the right time to camp and the right time to rush)
1) is modernate diffcult, because aim is only effective against small aliens but they are so darn small so it requires modernate FPS skill at least
> If u can aim, u are no longer a newb alien <
but humans takes more than aiming
2) this is a bit harder, its going to take quite to bit of time to learn how different alliens attack and their patterns, and takes even more time to learn how to dodge them. And the worst part is , there is a limit on how well you can dance, once u hit that point, ur done, its gonna be very harder to be able to dodge better.
3) this , IMO is most diffcult, if u rush too much, u lose, camp too much, u lose as well. A balance between the two is not gonna be easy to find , especaill for a newb that gets called feeder or camper every game they play.
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What does humans need to learn to get out the newb stage:
1) aim
2) movement/dodge/dance
3) timing ( know the right time to camp and the right time to rush)
lol im all that except number 3. I'm just too impatient to camp. One time everyone yelled at me to camp so I stayed in and I got sooooooo bored :P
And dude, I agree with you, all the new players will basically go to humans because it is more simple and alien is pretty complex (example? Me.)
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That's true, most beginning players pick humans, maybe because they are ranged, and you have the ability to camp. Now days you see more elite players use aliens, because once they hit s3, they get so hard to kill, since they get that fat animal known as the tyrant that can kill you with 2 swipes even with a battlesuit.
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That's true, most beginning players pick humans, maybe because they are ranged, and you have the ability to camp. Now days you see more elite players use aliens, because once they hit s3, they get so hard to kill, since they get that fat animal known as the tyrant that can kill you with 2 swipes even with a battlesuit.
3 swipes to kill a battlesuit, not two.
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That's true, most beginning players pick humans
Maybe true. Not everyone at human team is newb, tho, but sometimes they get 3 or 4 newb builders each one building weird things. It's sign of imminent disaster.
Anyway, even if newbs, when humans reach s3, if aliens find their base not-so-easy to attack, you soon see a team-chat saying: "collect evos for SD" or similar. This is a gameplay corruption caused by the unbalance of SD, cause it guarantees alien success. I have a list with 3 or 4 things I believe should be fixed in the gameplay, most of them debatable, but I think this one is a must-fix under any POV.
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A single human being able to sneak out at sd and killing om and/or eggs is equally devastating if not more.
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Do we really play the same game?
The first goal of alien team in SD will be the armory. It doesn't matter if it's a kamikaze attack, as long as the armory falls. Once the armory is down, each human that dies will not be able to buy weapons nor armor anymore, while aliens will be able to evolve into tyrants until last egg is down.
Can a human sneak and destroy alien spawns? Yeah, once in a thousand of games.
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A single human being able to sneak out at sd and killing om and/or eggs is equally devastating if not more.
Wrong, killing the OM during SD is hardly devastating for the aliens. Only eggs matter.
During SD, when attacking the alien base, my priority is eggs, turrets, trapper and only then OM. You might wonder why I place turrets before the OM. It's because OM can be replaced and not turrets, and turrets do indeed hinder a lot the attacks one can do on the alien base. Not mentioning that we might very soon be required to make naked rifle runs on the alien base and that a few acid tubes will kill naked humans very very fast.
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A single human being able to sneak out at sd and killing om and/or eggs is equally devastating if not more.
Wrong, killing the OM during SD is hardly devastating for the aliens. Only eggs matter.
During SD, when attacking the alien base, my priority is eggs, turrets, trapper and only then OM. You might wonder why I place turrets before the OM. It's because OM can be replaced and not turrets, and turrets do indeed hinder a lot the attacks one can do on the alien base. Not mentioning that we might very soon be required to make naked rifle runs on the alien base and that a few acid tubes will kill naked humans very very fast.
I disagree. Hit the OM and then go on the offensive. No defenses and the aliens can't evolve into OMGTYRANTS. Actually, killing the OM is a sure fire victory when if humans rush afterwards. You only have to deal with dretches until the OM goes back up.
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I disagree. Hit the OM and then go on the offensive. No defenses and the aliens can't evolve into OMGTYRANTS. Actually, killing the OM is a sure fire victory when if humans rush afterwards. You only have to deal with dretches until the OM goes back up.
I wasn't aware that killing the OM would instantly transform all aliens to dretches.
Killing the OM might help you in the short run, but if the aliens replace it before you have the time to kill something else, all you've managed was to get 300 credits at the cost of your equipment. Killing turrets one after the other means that each successive human attack will be more effective.
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Killing the OM might help you in the short run, but if the aliens replace it before you have the time to kill something else(...)
And it doesn't even matter where you build it. It just needs to stay alive the right time to allow the aliens to evolve. You'll have time to build it again later.
Not to mention that the human, in most cases, has to be able to sneak between tyrants. Not impossible, but he needs some luck to not be damaged in his way, and om needs some time* to die. And, to add to the human dificulties, he'd need to return to base alive (most likely sneaking tyrants again?), cause if he dies, he probably won't have armory where to spend his credits (the more attacks he has to do, the higher the chances he won't have armory at spawning).
Nothing of these is impossible, but you need a combo of luck & skill, or a good devastating human rush to suceed, while aliens don't need any of these.
*Edit: and all your ammo.
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Even worse, I was in a game in gloom2b where humans were somehow surviving the aliens during SD. At some point during the alien siege, we manage to kill enouth tyrants to mount a proper counter attack.
We lost the game because the 3 cashless humans left to defend the base could do NOTHING to stop a lone adv goon from sniping the armory. Not only have humans to mount a complex organised counter attack to win during SD, but they also must leave a good fighting force in their base to prevent it from beeing destroyed by a lone adv goon or tyrant that got behind the attacking force :/
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I disagree. Hit the OM and then go on the offensive. No defenses and the aliens can't evolve into OMGTYRANTS. Actually, killing the OM is a sure fire victory when if humans rush afterwards. You only have to deal with dretches until the OM goes back up.
I wasn't aware that killing the OM would instantly transform all aliens to dretches.
Killing the OM might help you in the short run, but if the aliens replace it before you have the time to kill something else, all you've managed was to get 300 credits at the cost of your equipment. Killing turrets one after the other means that each successive human attack will be more effective.
If you kill the overmind, everything else is happen stance. Sure, if your team sucks and allows a roaming tyrant to maul everyone over and over, you're screwed. With the OM down, aliens (should) stop attacking the base in fear of dying and becoming a dretch. There will be nothing to stop you from finding the eggs. If a human team can't supress grangers from putting a BIG ASS OVERMIND back up, they deserve to lose.
I play Aliens all the time and I know what it is like to lose an OM. Eggs, well, you will lose eggs and pray humans can't find them. But an OM is hard to hide and losing it forces aliens to play conservative or they become dretches. IFyou knock the OM out, you don't have much to stop you from taking out the eggs. But trying to take out the eggs with the OM up means you have everything to worry about.
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With the OM down, aliens (should) stop attacking the base in fear of dying and becoming a dretch.
TBH, when I play alien, if OM is killed during SD I don't even bother worring for a second. In most cases, I bet the alien team doesn't even notice if the OM was killed or not until someone spawns and finds he can't evolve.
Well, it also depends on the map, ofc. Killing OM might compensate at ATCS, but I've never seen any trouble with it being rebuilt at any other.
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If you kill the overmind, everything else is happen stance. Sure, if your team sucks and allows a roaming tyrant to maul everyone over and over, you're screwed. With the OM down, aliens (should) stop attacking the base in fear of dying and becoming a dretch. There will be nothing to stop you from finding the eggs. If a human team can't supress grangers from putting a BIG ASS OVERMIND back up, they deserve to lose.
I play Aliens all the time and I know what it is like to lose an OM. Eggs, well, you will lose eggs and pray humans can't find them. But an OM is hard to hide and losing it forces aliens to play conservative or they become dretches. IFyou knock the OM out, you don't have much to stop you from taking out the eggs. But trying to take out the eggs with the OM up means you have everything to worry about.
I don't think we are talking of the same thing. During SD, aliens care far less for OM than during the normal game. During SD, alien base is far less often undefended than during the rest of the game. As a lone human, you'll be lucky to have enouth time to kill the OM because of all the acid tubes and the tyrant/adv goon defending the base. Killing the OM during SD is a suicide operation, and they will replace it nearly on the spot! I have better things to do than suicide my cash to kill something that aliens will replace in a few seconds. Killing eggs will greatly increase the chances of victory, and killing turrets will make the next attack much easier. Killing OM will very often have zero effect on the aliens.
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If you kill the overmind, everything else is happen stance. Sure, if your team sucks and allows a roaming tyrant to maul everyone over and over, you're screwed. With the OM down, aliens (should) stop attacking the base in fear of dying and becoming a dretch. There will be nothing to stop you from finding the eggs. If a human team can't supress grangers from putting a BIG ASS OVERMIND back up, they deserve to lose.
I play Aliens all the time and I know what it is like to lose an OM. Eggs, well, you will lose eggs and pray humans can't find them. But an OM is hard to hide and losing it forces aliens to play conservative or they become dretches. IFyou knock the OM out, you don't have much to stop you from taking out the eggs. But trying to take out the eggs with the OM up means you have everything to worry about.
I don't think we are talking of the same thing. During SD, aliens care far less for OM than during the normal game. During SD, alien base is far less often undefended than during the rest of the game. As a lone human, you'll be lucky to have enouth time to kill the OM because of all the acid tubes and the tyrant/adv goon defending the base. Killing the OM during SD is a suicide operation, and they will replace it nearly on the spot! I have better things to do than suicide my cash to kill something that aliens will replace in a few seconds. Killing eggs will greatly increase the chances of victory, and killing turrets will make the next attack much easier. Killing OM will very often have zero effect on the aliens.
I know what kind of stupid stuff goes on during most games. This is showing how lame games are. When the OM drops, humans should rush. The consequences of that strategy is so jarring, most aliens don't realize why they lose when the OM falls. The only problem most aliens think about is losing eggs. I bet most aliens don't realize stop attacking when they lose the OM. I have played many games when the OM gets nailed and the alien doesn't realize the consequences. I think the biggest reason why human teams win when they do win is that aliens don't have enough experience losing and have to think about why they lose as much as human have losing thrown in their face. All aliens think about is losing eggs or feeding.
For me, as human, if I can nail the OM....just go back and clean up the rest of the evolved aliens while looking for eggs. Before long, its obvious they can't do jack and any human can walk the map freely. At this point, just kill off any alien structures so that only the eggs will be showing up on the radar. They will be basically staring at you at this point. The base is safe again (Dretches won't be kiling the Reactor) and only a roaming evolved alien can really pose a threat. Its easy for rifle totting humans to clean up any attempts to rebuild the OM or any running grangers.
Play a granger and lose the OM at any time during a game and you will learn that the alien game revolves around the OM.
But this is not even considered. People just think about eggs. Its more suicidial to go for eggs while the OM is up because you got all the tyrants and advanced goons raping you in the process. Credit for credit, I've learned to go for anything between me and the OM and then the OM directly. The only time I go for eggs first is if I'm in a position to sweep the alien base at once and I think all the eggs are present. Then, you go for the eggs, then OM so the aliens don't get the 'OM is dying' message and come defend it.
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Excuse me but when humans are reduced to doing sneak attacks on the alien base during SD ( which is exactly the situation we started talking about ), going after the OM is a waste of time and credits. Killing eggs is much better, if not because they cannot replace them and it allows you to win during SD, but also because it places the aliens in a very dangerous situation once they are reduced to 1-2 egg ( no more see of dretch to stop us from nuking the alien base )
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To me, the aliens have a slight advantage for SD, for one, sometimes humans get trapped and are forced to camp while goons and tyrants are outside waiting. And even if you get through the tyrant-goon process you'll probably have like 30 health left. And don't forget about those hives, they will kill you!
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To me, the aliens have a slight advantage for SD, for one, sometimes humans get trapped and are forced to camp while goons and tyrants are outside waiting. And even if you get through the tyrant-goon process you'll probably have like 30 health left. And don't forget about those hives, they will kill you!
that's why nade+suiciding is for :P
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For me, as human, if I can nail the OM....just go back and clean up the rest of the evolved aliens while looking for eggs.
May I ask what are aliens supposed to be doing all along this proccess? Look how you kill them? Do they let you pass the several times you'd need to go back to reload the ammo needed to do all those things? Sounds good for S2, but for SD it sounds just like a dream.
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May I ask what are aliens supposed to be doing all along this proccess? Look how you kill them? Do they let you pass the several times you'd need to go back to reload the ammo needed to do all those things? Sounds good for S2, but for SD it sounds just like a dream.
Well what I always do is when I destroy the OM, start doing your "ATTACK NOW" binds. And do whatever you can before you die. I would always run around until back up comes and then I run to base. Now you just wipe out the remains.
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For me, as human, if I can nail the OM....just go back and clean up the rest of the evolved aliens while looking for eggs.
May I ask what are aliens supposed to be doing all along this proccess? Look how you kill them? Do they let you pass the several times you'd need to go back to reload the ammo needed to do all those things? Sounds good for S2, but for SD it sounds just like a dream.
Aliens are camping outside the human base.