Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: temple on November 25, 2006, 01:40:50 am
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Temple's GRAND Suggestion for Humans
The Change
Medikits will restore 99 health even when humans are at max hit points. Humans can achieve 199 health when using medikits at max health (100 hit points).
Medistations will only restore health or recharge Medikits when humans are below 100 hit points.
*This means that human have to activate a medikit to get 199 health when they are at max health and can not use medistations or recharge another medikit until the extra health (health over 100) has been taken.*
Rationale
Humans get camped inside their base by aliens frequently. Humans get overpowered by large aliens frequently (namely Tyrants). Humans have a very narrow window of opportunity to kill aliens before they are killed (whereas aliens have various evasion abilities).
I feel that humans have the offensive power to destroy alien and their bases. Humans also have more than effective base defense. There is still a 2 fold problem for humans:
1)Humans often have to fight out and into their own bases. Due to aliens' ability to regenerate and evolve anywhere on the map, aliens can crowd around the human base for long periods of time. This causes humans to stay in their base for long periods and risk quick execution by multiple aliens when they try to exit their base.
2)Humans are outclassed by most higher alien classes in terms the amount of damage humans deal and receive. Simply put, most alien forms are deadlier and more sturdy than humans. This leaves humans with a smaller margin for error when engaging them.
Why this helps Pros
Pros will be able to fight more successfully with aliens, regardless of armor or weapon selection. Humans weapons and armor choices directly influence how a human will play and their level of success in specific situations, regardless of skill level. With 199 health, pros will be able to last long enough to fend off any alien without luck, terrain exploitation, skill differences, and in more match-ups against different aliens.
Why this helps Beginners
Beginners will have more time to learn how to fight aliens, at all stages. Due to head attacks dealing 200% damage, aliens will continue to be lethal when played well. However, beginners will not be killed instantly from 1 or 2 attacks from alien attacks and have more time to realize how they are winning or losing in encounters.
Countermeasures
Aliens have poison from boosters that can only be curred by a medikit. If human players choose to use the medikit early for 100+ health bonus, they will not be able to counter poison. Alien boosters (and Stage 2 in general) will be more important for alien progression.
Conclusions and sentiments
Overally, I feel that humans have more than enough tools at their disposal to win but can be swarmed by multiple aliens with little counter. Most aliens can flee when outnumbered or outclassed. However humans do not have any viable escape options or ambushed suddenly. Human weapons have been balanced to a point that a shift in more or less power would destabilize gameplay. Humans do not need more damage or better base defense. This change would hopefully encourage more human players to get out of the base because they will not be killed so quickly.
Boosting armor values would lower all alien attacks in effectiveness at Stage 2 and 3. Lower alien damage would hamper encounters at Stage 3 greatly, namely hurting the deadliness of dragoons and tyrants. By increasing human health directly, the positional damage system already in place will still provide assistance with overpowering humans. Using head damage will be more necessary than simply ambushing or stalking humans. It increases the skill required for aliens but does not take away from aliens' effectiveness.
Alien, in my opinion, are very fun and balanced in terms of their roles and point cost. A change in alien classes would render some classes obsolete and others unstoppable. Some players would like to change Tyrants because they are completely devastating. However, making a tyrant less powerful would defeat the purpose of them and make advanced Dragoon superior in Stage 3.
Humans simply need more endurance and thus time to deal with multiple aliens and large aliens like Tyrants. By giving humans the option of having 199 health, they can withstand an ambush (though they will be damaged) and attempt to counter. But, aliens can always counter with poison attacks if humans have used their medikits early.
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Bloody long post, but a damn fine idea
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Heh, kind of like how in Quake games when you get the big health packs(not the small ones), it goes above 100 HP, but you slowly degenerate to 100 HP.
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Best human balance idea in a long time.
I do agree that hummies have everithing the need to take down aliens but staying power.
This would give humans the ability to fight a tad longer and make the game a tad more interesting for both parties.
I'm not sure if 199 hp is a tad much though.
If it takes 6 headswipes from a tyrant to kill my bsuit, chances are the tyrant gets the short straw.
This would require larger aliens to work in groups.
Problem is that many maps don't allow a tyrant to have company thus making his survival rate ever shorter.
I guess it would need some play testing.
Also, imagine Tremma with 199 hp!
No base is safe there buddy.
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How about we add in health packs all across the map. And make no health cap. So everyone would become good my memorizing routes to get health and just stock and stock and stock and I'd be playing Nexuiz again.
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Also, imagine Tremma with 199 hp!
No base is safe there buddy.
Tremma is a f'd up no matter what.
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How about we add in health packs all across the map. And make no health cap. So everyone would become good my memorizing routes to get health and just stock and stock and stock and I'd be playing Nexuiz again.
no, health packs around the map is a bad idea.
Temples idea is good
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Heh, kind of like how in Quake games when you get the big health packs(not the small ones), it goes above 100 HP, but you slowly degenerate to 100 HP.
Or in Unreal Tournament 2003, 2004 & 2007 wi9th the Big Keg O' Health.
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How about we add in health packs all across the map. And make no health cap. So everyone would become good my memorizing routes to get health and just stock and stock and stock and I'd be playing Nexuiz again.
Add the Nex, Hagar and mid-air detonating RL and I'm in.(mortar while you're at it)
Oh and don't forget Nex Power.
Kill the tyrant with 10 blaster shots.
Ah, good old times.
You always make me just a tad sentimental Tremma.
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Why not change 2 small details:
1. Round up to 100 health
2. Steal Quake's idea and make it degenerate 1 hit-point per second, if the medipack is done and the human is above 100 health
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Then the booster-poison should also be upgraded to last at least 60sec and do twice the damage, as the humans can have twice their orig health then...
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i dont think it would work tbh
humans can easily win against humans - trem is balanced
but one thing you did say makes complete sense
HUMANS HAVE A SMALLER MARGIN FOR ERROR
this is the biggest problem imo at the moment
i can dodge tyrants for about 10 seconds - but 10 seconds isnt enough and 2 hits im dead
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i dont think it would work tbh
humans can easily win against humans - trem is balanced
Its not that cut and dry.
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^^
hmmm ok true
but where i play humans win probably 45 if not 50 % of the time. but that might come down to the maps and teams
the point is i dont want to see trem nerfed to make it easier for humans to win, because whene ive played as aliens and a decent human team has rushed at s2, its bloody hard to hang on
if it then becomes easier for them to win then it might screw things up
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I want megahealth
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Nice idea for maybe a mod.
But not a idea to be implemented in the game as standard.
Immagine a full BS-Human with 200 health with a (nerfed) luci.
They will hold 6 Tyrant hits then, and be able to get the tyrant down with 2 full charged shots.
IE, they will just stand there, not running nor dodging, and fire the blast direclty into the tyrant, what will give them HUGE advantages!
Or Painsaw them.
The BS will be UEBER-weapon not counterable by anything.
The now huge damage/close range/slow working weapons like luci, painsaw or MD would just be the choice for the BS 200hp human.
I dont like the idea you would need 2 tyrants to kill a BS 200hp lucifer human, because the balance would be gone. He could be even firing at his feet and would kill anything smaller than adv.goon with one hit with not going down.
--> BAD IDEA
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I don't fully believe your proposal is a bad idea but most of what you describe seems to assume the scenario is a single human vs a single alien which if put in effect your ideas will change the whole team play dynamic in trem. Yes there are certain exceptions where a single human can kill a tyrant or a few, but a working human team can make quick work of a lone tyrant. That being said no matter how certain classes\weapons are edited team work will always be the best weapon.
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Nice idea for maybe a mod.
But not a idea to be implemented in the game as standard.
Immagine a full BS-Human with 200 health with a (nerfed) luci.
They will hold 6 Tyrant hits then, and be able to get the tyrant down with 2 full charged shots.
IE, they will just stand there, not running nor dodging, and fire the blast direclty into the tyrant, what will give them HUGE advantages!
Or Painsaw them.
The BS will be UEBER-weapon not counterable by anything.
The now huge damage/close range/slow working weapons like luci, painsaw or MD would just be the choice for the BS 200hp human.
I dont like the idea you would need 2 tyrants to kill a BS 200hp lucifer human, because the balance would be gone. He could be even firing at his feet and would kill anything smaller than adv.goon with one hit with not going down.
--> BAD IDEA
Use poison, you know that thing that most people don't bother with. A poison buff would go with this. Nothing major, may be 5 extra damage every tick but the same overall damage (I think its 50 damage total, so the duration of poison would be shorter). Just enough to make sure that humans think twice about using the medikit early.
But overall, Chaingun/BS would be worst than Luci/BS. Luci is a joke if you got room to move.
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And get rid of tjw's poison adjustment, if you implement this.
I don't get how armor affects poison damage.
All it should do is help prevent you from getting poisoned in the first place.
That said, battle suits should not be almost invulnerable to poison.
Is it possible to make poison a random chance?
Make poison chance equivalent to armor damage modifier.
30% damage modifier gets 30% chance of poison.
100% damage modifier (naked) 100% chance of poison.
etc.
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Well, they could make everything, namely the battlesuits and lucifer cannons, more expensive. But I agree it should be a mod, not a part of the standard game. I have gotten used to and enjoy playing as the humans, 100 HP and all.
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Way to make it imbalanced.
Besides, with those rules, you could stand on the pad and use a needle on 90 hp, get another one when your health hits 100 use it strait away and go up to 288.
Just learn to dance/dodge when your fighting. Its damn hard to kill humans that are good at it.
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Besides, with those rules, you could stand on the pad and use a needle on 90 hp, get another one when your health hits 100 use it strait away and go up to 288.
The health boost is instant from what I've heard.
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We should also give humans a Mech with +1000% armor and 500 HP, with twin rapid-fire Luci cannons that deal 150 dmg each.
And so that tyrants won't kill them too easily, they should be able to teleport and fly. And for 1 credit each use, noclip through walls. Enemy defenses might be a problem though, so trappers won't affect it.
That might be a little unbalanced...it would be too easy to spot. Therefore, we should make it invisable.
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We should also give humans a Mech with +1000% armor and 500 HP, with twin rapid-fire Luci cannons that deal 150 dmg each.
And so that tyrants won't kill them too easily, they should be able to teleport and fly. And for 1 credit each use, noclip through walls. Enemy defenses might be a problem though, so trappers won't affect it.
That might be a little unbalanced...it would be too easy to spot. Therefore, we should make it invisable.
lol?!
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Many humans use medi kit the instant they are hit, giving them at least 1 extra hit from tyrant , VERY USEFUL, learn it.
BTW tyrant head shot does 100 X 2 X 0.2 = 40 damage headshot to battlesuit
and 100 X 2 X 0.3 = 60 damage headshot to helmet
5 headshots is all that takes to gurantee a human death.
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Many humans use medi kit the instant they are hit, giving them at least 1 extra hit from tyrant , VERY USEFUL, learn it.
BTW tyrant head shot does 100 X 2 X 0.2 = 40 damage headshot to battlesuit
and 100 X 2 X 0.3 = 60 damage headshot to helmet
5 headshots is all that takes to gurantee a human death.
Tyrants aren't the problem that I'm trying to fix.
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You indeed try to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
There is NO problem in trem, except for bugs and glitches that are being fixed by the devs, what you suggest would impact the balance and the gameplay strongly!
Its not that I say you shouldn't suggest anything, but you have to admit that "fixing tremulous" is not your job but the job of the devs.
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You indeed try to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
There is NO problem in trem, except for bugs and glitches that are being fixed by the devs, what you suggest would impact the balance and the gameplay strongly!
Its not that I say you shouldn't suggest anything, but you have to admit that "fixing tremulous" is not your job but the job of the devs.
What was I referring to?
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There is NO problem in trem
:eek: :o :D
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we need some thing that makes humans actaully work together. :o
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we need some thing that makes humans actaully work together. :o
a rope, one moves, all move
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we need some thing that makes humans actaully work together. :o
a rope, one moves, all move
Movin' from left to right and front back, that's what happens when you hang from your neck!
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I suddenly have the bad mental image of 12 guys sharing a noose…
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I agree to all of it apart from the first one with extra health i also think humans need a special ability of some sort like a pack or somthing that you buy from the amory that helps the player in some way like speed tokens damage token and so on and those increase there speed or damage ever so slightly and your aloud only one per player and they all cost 50 credits
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Hmm, a pack of some sort, that helps the player?
What could there be?
OH! I KNOW! A JETpack!
OR A BATTPACK!
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humans allready work together as much as could hope to in public games.
my suggestion is to give the medkit-user a boost of speed or something, if used above 100 hp, so it would work like the stimpack in starcraft.
(without faster firing rate and health loss.
as for encouraging teamwork in public games: there are alotta retards i r eally would rather have solo, so i wouldnt have to bother with em.
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How about have a steriod pack that is 50 creds. You buy it and it lets you run at super speed, but doesnt stop till your stamina is all the way down, and stamina doesnt recharge when it is on.
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I love you Temple.
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Hmm, a pack of some sort, that helps the player?
What could there be?
OH! I KNOW! A JETpack!
OR A BATTPACK!
You forgot Ammo Pack (coming soon to a Tremulous 1.2.0 near you)
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You are talking to the guy who hunts Tyrants with a battery-pack and a lasgun.
Chain-suits are for people who can't aim.
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You are talking to the guy who hunts Tyrants with a battery-pack and a lasgun.
Chain-suits are for people who can't aim.
Actually, battle suits + chaingun are for people who are not uber l33t, or for people who are being raided by multiple heavies.
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You are talking to the guy who hunts Tyrants with a battery-pack and a lasgun.
Chain-suits are for people who can't aim.
Actually, battle suits + chaingun are for people who are not uber l33t, or for people who are being raided by multiple heavies.
Is that some Alien conspiration to give worthless human advice on the forum? Don't listen to them! BS + chaingun IS the best tool to hunt and kill any alien bigger than a basilisk.
Well, you do have to learn how to aim if you want to kill a mara with less bullets than a Tyrant but it still is a very good way to do it ;)
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I think trem is really balanced because humans that aren't stupid will win the main problem is that most new people (and even old) will go to the human side because it's "easier" that is why aliens always win.
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Yea, but I pick it for 3 reasons:
1. Lasgun and battery-pack is much cheaper.
250+70+90+100=510
400+400=800
2. Helmet gives you radar.
3. Can buy a lasgun at s1 or s2 without a decrease in aim.
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Yea, but I pick it for 3 reasons:
1. Lasgun and battery-pack is much cheaper.
250+70+90+100=510
400+400=800
2. Helmet gives you radar.
3. Can buy a lasgun at s1 or s2 without a decrease in aim.
The "accuracy" malus is really nothing to worry about you. And it is certainly nothing that matters at all at very close range. Humans should select their weapons for close range fighting because honestly, you won't have often aliens hanging around far away in a big open room for you to snipe with the lasgun :)
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I know of a special little key called X that lets you sprint morons
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Is that some Alien conspiration to give worthless human advice on the forum? Don't listen to them! BS + chaingun IS the best tool to hunt and kill any alien bigger than a basilisk.
unless you have less than 10 ping, in which case it takes out dretches,basilisks and grangers with similar ease.
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we need some thing that makes humans actaully work together. :o
(Hey, I'm only a week late.)
I thought it would be fun to make everyone turn at the same time. It one person turns, everyone turns. It would require lots of teamwork and would be hella funny.
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Interesting suggestion. One problem that would likely happen is that it won't actually get humans to camp less, only that a human that strays 10 feet out of the base has enough health to get back before dying (as opposed to the dretch getting that second bite in before he gets away). As you said, it helps pros last longer out of the base. I just don't see this getting noobs to leave.
It would also make joining as an alien against s3 humans really difficult.
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Tranq saw from Risujin's Balance Mod seems to be the simplest way to get at least pairs of humans working together, and gets them out of the base. It does little damage, but renders an alien incapable of running, though they can still turn.