Tremulous Forum

Media => Mapping Center => Topic started by: techhead on December 24, 2006, 02:25:43 pm

Title: Maps that died.
Post by: techhead on December 24, 2006, 02:25:43 pm
There are some fun maps that seem to have died.
The creator started work, then apparently loss interest or something happened that they stopped making the map.
Including Pulse, Thermal, Gamma Core, and others.
The funniest part is, people still play these beta maps, which means that they weren't failures at all.
Anyone know what happened to them?
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Survivor on December 24, 2006, 03:09:00 pm
Soubok is busy with java atm, but he still plans on finishing Pulse. Thermal is still under construction as far as i know. The other maps' fates i don't know much about
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Rawr on December 24, 2006, 09:53:36 pm
transit :P
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: techhead on December 30, 2006, 11:07:10 pm
Bump.
Has anyone heard from the creator of thermal?
It has a couple things that need fixing, but it is an awesome map to play in.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: cp blast on December 31, 2006, 06:17:50 am
Quote from: "techhead"
Bump.
Has anyone heard from the creator of thermal?
It has a couple things that need fixing, but it is an awesome map to play in.

i agree.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Dersaidin on December 31, 2006, 01:28:26 pm
Making maps takes a lot more effort than people bargain for.

Not just actually producing the pk3, but getting people to play it as well.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: vcxzet on December 31, 2006, 03:30:59 pm
oh god if they put the .map in the pk3 Maps would be maintainable
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Survivor on December 31, 2006, 05:25:40 pm
Quote from: "vcxzet"
oh god if they put the .map in the pk3 Maps would be maintainable


Do you know how many people can fuck maps up just by looking at them? Besides keeping the versions apart.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: gareth on December 31, 2006, 06:29:15 pm
Quote from: "Survivor"
Quote from: "vcxzet"
oh god if they put the .map in the pk3 Maps would be maintainable


Do you know how many people can fuck maps up just by looking at them? Besides keeping the versions apart.


Do you know how often you can take anything said by vcxzet seriously.?
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: vcxzet on December 31, 2006, 06:37:42 pm
mighty mappers with unfinished maps!
they will finish it someday .... really
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Survivor on December 31, 2006, 06:57:56 pm
Quote from: "gareth"
Quote from: "Survivor"
Quote from: "vcxzet"
oh god if they put the .map in the pk3 Maps would be maintainable


Do you know how many people can fuck maps up just by looking at them? Besides keeping the versions apart.


Do you know how often you can take anything said by vcxzet seriously.?


10%, i'm just bored with the fact that there hasn't been a real discussion on these forums for ages.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Odin on January 01, 2007, 02:07:12 am
vcxzet: decompile the .bsp files with q3map2.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Dersaidin on January 01, 2007, 02:07:49 am
.map in the pk3 would end horribly, with many different versions under the same filename.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: vcxzet on January 01, 2007, 07:56:35 am
so mappers
1) have no time to finish their maps

ok no problem But say you wont finish it.

2) they dont want to release .map file

this is also fine that is your map. but just dont give me stupid reasons like version - filename collision. Just say you wont

Quote
.map in the pk3 would end horribly, with many different versions under the same filename.

I wonder how they cant rename the filename. It is easy

Quote
vcxzet: decompile the .bsp files with q3map2.

result is sometimes not perfect

Quote
10%, i'm just bored with the fact that there hasn't been a real discussion on these forums for ages.

try not to give useless reasons

Quote
Do you know how many people can fuck maps up just by looking at them? Besides keeping the versions apart.

huh How can a mapper can fuck a map file by looking at it
and you will put the blah.map to map-blah-ver.pk3
can you rename and put blah-ver.map in it?
you release pk3 files that frequent?
AFAIK you dont you didnt
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Survivor on January 01, 2007, 11:53:25 am
Ah, it seems i am not worthy of having any opinion or say against the mighty vxczet. Do as you please and ignore me.

Edit: since i broke my rule of not being 100% assaholic I'll explain.

As you know do know the basics of mapping you know several facts.
- compile switches. Many mappers use custom compile options to make their map look right. As far as i know only soubok has ever released the switches he used and that was for pulse. Not even the official ones have done that.
- many people who have a total non understanding of the strategy intended in maps will just add big corridors/rooms, annihilate the optimization present, don't see what the mapper wanted to do.
- 2 people making changes at a map is hard enough, if several people start doing derivative works i suggest they do it like atsc zone alpha and just work like that instead of fucking up the original mapper's hard work.
-not all sources will be included in the .pk3. When I asked soubok for a look in pulse we ran into several problems which not the least was an editor incompatability since i use 1.2.13 and he uses 1.5.0. Also several source textures were missing from the .pk3 and there were problems with the spawnpoints which to hitherto i have not found a reason for.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Stof on January 01, 2007, 12:27:53 pm
I find it funny that on that opensource project, people object to editing other's maps whereas it is somewhat a common practice on the closed source UT and UT2kX to do it, most often by creating optimised slimed down versions of good maps for better performance. But not before asking permission from the original author if the map wasn't a standard map.

Now, even though those games have far more popularity than Trem, and far more potential to screw up the other's maps ( anybody can open any map that is on his hard drive easily, and everybody uses the same editor ) it hasn't happened.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Survivor on January 01, 2007, 12:58:08 pm
I just gave some points to look out for. Experienced mappers won't have a lot of trouble with it since they know what to look for but the new mappers who are most likely to edit these maps they think are 'not done' will be able to fuck up greatly.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Maltagearion on January 01, 2007, 05:29:41 pm
I got swamped with things to do over the past few months and just haven't had time for thermal, but I promise once my schedule clears up I will finish it.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: techhead on January 01, 2007, 07:03:24 pm
Malt, it is nice to hear from you, I'm glad that you are still interested in maintaining your map and I hope your life clears up some.
Everyone else, I was suggesting that we contact the creators of the map and find out what their status is, and if they want someone else to carry on the torch.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: soubok on January 02, 2007, 12:14:39 pm
Hi all, an happy new year.
My map is not dead !
As I said before, I will finish my map "Pulse" later. I am waiting for some bugs to be fixed in tremulous engine ( #2809, #2757 ).
Furthermore, as I said before, I will release any source of my map after having finished it.

Soubok.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Lava Croft on January 02, 2007, 03:10:42 pm
Quote from: "Dersaidin"
.map in the pk3 would end horribly, with many different versions under the same filename.

Funny, did that happen to Tremor and Arachnid2 too? I think it would be nothing more than correct to include the source .map in the pk3.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: soubok on January 02, 2007, 03:43:44 pm
Including the source .map in the pk3 only adds weight to the pk3 file.
99% of players do not need .map in the package.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Lava Croft on January 02, 2007, 04:00:35 pm
Quote from: "soubok"
Including the source .map in the pk3 only adds weight to the pk3 file.
99% of players do not need .map in the package.

In the case of some maps, it might be smarter to not include the .map file, I can understand that.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: chompers on January 02, 2007, 05:27:26 pm
.map files are small and compress exceptionally well.

In the case of UTCS, I've just added over 2mb to the pk3 in duplicated ATCS textures because apparently (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=23728#23728) it is un-PC to share texture resources with the default maps.

Trimming weight from the pk3 is no reason to exclude the map file, 100k for a compressed .map is comparatively minor.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Lava Croft on January 03, 2007, 02:16:27 am
Quote from: "chompers"
because apparently (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=23728#23728) it is un-PC to share texture resources with the default maps.

So that people who might not like ATCS and therefore do not have it installed, can still enjoy UTCS. (sic)
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: techhead on January 03, 2007, 02:22:28 am
How do not have ATCS installed?
Then you can't enter the game and make mapvotes against it.
Not to mention the fact that every download of Trem 1.1.0 comes with a free copy of ATCS.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: n00b pl0x on January 03, 2007, 05:51:58 am
Quote from: "techhead"
How do not have ATCS installed?
Then you can't enter the game and make mapvotes against it.
Not to mention the fact that every download of Trem 1.1.0 comes with a free copy of ATCS.


I thought each copy of ATCS was 5$? I bought 3 for 15$ from some guy wearing an "I made Trem" shirt :(
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Lava Croft on January 05, 2007, 01:18:24 pm
Quote from: "techhead"
Not to mention the fact that every download of Trem 1.1.0 comes with a free copy of ATCS.

As usual, you fail to read, and thrive on assumptions. Have you thought about people who might not like ATCS -or any other map-, and therefore do not want it running on their server? Such people would probably remove ATCS from their server, actively breaking maps that are dependant on it. Since we live in the age where harddisk space goes by the gigabyte, I think moaning about 3MB of extra data is just retarded.
Title: want
Post by: beethoven on January 16, 2007, 12:31:52 am
i want to make some trem maps. is there a program for a mac that i can use to make maps?
Title: Re: want
Post by: Basilisco on January 16, 2007, 05:31:44 am
Quote from: "beethoven"
i want to make some trem maps. is there a program for a mac that i can use to make maps?

http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2179&
Title: Redux and Space Death
Post by: RedGuff on February 27, 2007, 12:38:05 am
Hello.
Redux and Space Death can not be played, because of lack of spawn.

I'd like that the mapper (or someone else, if the mapper agree), correct it.

Please, remember : I'm NOT the mapper.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: tuple on February 28, 2007, 12:33:15 pm
They are not tremulous maps, they are quake3 maps.  Why anyone started calling them tremulous maps is a mystery to me and I would like to curse them!
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: tuple on February 28, 2007, 12:39:47 pm
Quote from: "vcxzet"
oh god if they put the .map in the pk3 Maps would be maintainable


Um, actually this is true.  Many of the default tremulous maps have .map files included, have they been "messed up"?

.map files SHOULD be included with the pk3s, they help new mappers to learn how it's done, allow the community to fix a map if a fatal flaw is found, allow maps to be modified to stay compatible with future versions of the game and frankly are in the spirit of an open source game.

If I continue reading this thread and find that you guys continue to say silly things or impugn the character of vcxzet, I shall be forced to fart in you general direction!
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: gareth on February 28, 2007, 02:36:55 pm
Quote from: "tuple"
They are not tremulous maps, they are quake3 maps.  Why anyone started calling them tremulous maps is a mystery to me and I would like to curse them!


try playing them in quake3.


Quote from: "tuple"

Um, actually this is true. Many of the default tremulous maps have .map files included, have they been "messed up"?


many? i can think of 2. ATCS' .map wasnt included, but several messed up versions have come about.

Quote from: "tuple"

.map files SHOULD be included with the pk3s, they help new mappers to learn how it's done, allow the community to fix a map if a fatal flaw is found, allow maps to be modified to stay compatible with future versions of the game and frankly are in the spirit of an open source game.


they SHOULD NOT HAVE to be included in the pk3, not everything SHOULD be open sourced, there is no reason too, you do not decide the spirit of this game just because the code is gpl'd. .maps dont help beginers to do anything more than copy. if a fatal flaw is found then tough, get the original mapper to sort it out.

...FART
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: vcxzet on February 28, 2007, 02:48:11 pm
examples are always good to look at So I dont see anything bad in including .map files It may not help beginners but it definitely may help real mappers to get inspration for their maps

and I think including . map idea goes well with a GPL code game
sources for most of the models are already available

and atcs isnt messed up just ppl cant create large playable maps
so they keep the map small and call it something like atcs
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: tuple on February 28, 2007, 03:03:06 pm
Quote from: "gareth"
you do not decide the spirit of this game just because the code is gpl'd. .maps dont help beginers to do anything more than copy. if a fatal flaw is found then tough, get the original mapper to sort it out.

...FART


Actually, I've learned a lot looking at other mappers work.  Original mappers are not always available, marsbase is an example.  How you can say that a game that is open should have parts that aren't open is beyond me.  It seems you should realize that it is in fact you who does not decide the spirit of the game.  That the code and media is open seems to have predetermined the spirit of the game, not me.  Examples of the opposite seem to be the exception, not the rule.

Incidently, in 4 or 5 years when tremulous is on version 1.2 :P the original mappers may not be available.  Alternatively, there will probably be lots of people willing to dig into the map to resolve any serious problems that are found, just like with the tremulous code.  Or to modify a map so that it may continue to work with newer versions of tremulous.

People actually like to contribute and help. and to help things like maps to live on.  Wanting mappers to leave that possibility available is not so terrible.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: Caveman on February 28, 2007, 03:17:34 pm
Guys, that is just a clash of opinions.
Both are valid :)

IANAL but I think the maps are supposed to be under some kind of CC-Licenes, therefor the .map should be included.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: gareth on February 28, 2007, 03:40:55 pm
Quote from: "tuple"

People actually like to contribute and help. and to help things like maps to live on.  Wanting mappers to leave that possibility available is not so terrible.


People like to fuck things up, im not saying mappers should not have the possiblity of letting them, but that they shouldnt have to explicitly allow them to.
Title: Maps that died.
Post by: tuple on February 28, 2007, 03:42:20 pm
Cmon Gareth, how am I gonna feed my need to fuck things up if you keep your .map files! :P