Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: [tycho] on January 24, 2007, 01:25:24 am
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so, is it?
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in my opinion, yes
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kick IMO, ban is a bit harsh
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It's a strategic game. If a builder builds an egg/telenode in a stupid place, the other team is rewarded with the ability to feed off of it toward the next stage. Kick the builder that built the feeding spawn if you really need to place the blame somewhere. The other team is doing their job and playing the game.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
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It's a strategic game. If a builder builds an egg/telenode in a stupid place, the other team is rewarded with the ability to feed off of it toward the next stage. Kick the builder that built the feeding spawn if you really need to place the blame somewhere. The other team is doing their job and playing the game.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
+1
If a team leaves a spawn unprotected, by sheer stupidity or to just have a forward egg/node, it is valid (if not cheap) to kill anything/everything that spawns from the said spawn. Therefore I do not believe it is a bannable/kickable offense, even though I do view it as quite cheap.
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It's a strategic game. If a builder builds an egg/telenode in a stupid place, the other team is rewarded with the ability to feed off of it toward the next stage. Kick the builder that built the feeding spawn if you really need to place the blame somewhere. The other team is doing their job and playing the game.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
+2
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1) I absolutely agree with Lakitu
2) It's easily remedied, alert your team, spawn builder, and decon it, it's not hard. I've done it on more than one occasion where some jackass goon is sitting on a human spawn wracking up kills instead of just ending the game. I can't see why that wouldn't work mid game. And to note, humans have to reload sometime if it's an alien spawn.
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It's a strategic game. If a builder builds an egg/telenode in a stupid place, the other team is rewarded with the ability to feed off of it toward the next stage. Kick the builder that built the feeding spawn if you really need to place the blame somewhere. The other team is doing their job and playing the game.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
Few feeder eggs are built by accident, most are done to grief build. I.E. building 3 eggs in front of the human base.
Therefore, kick/ban the spawn campers and the grief builder. If the aliens attack from the feeders eggs, then they are contributing to the feeding by not simply running. A 'fair' match is people killing the feeder spawn ASAP. They will get a few feeder kills but just hovering over it is lame and unsportsmanlike like.
To me, its like attacking when the other team gets deconned. Sure, you get an easy win but you wouldn't like it if it happened to you. Most people admit when their team was just building poorly but at the same time, they expect consideration when its a legitable griefing issue. Everyone says its 'a tactical mistake' until you get a grief builder on your team and heaven help them if you are an admin too.
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Unless there's only one spawn left and the other team is only spawnkilling in order to prolong the match, no punishment should be given.
I feel it's a valid gameplay strategy. If someone screws up that badly and their team doesn't do anything about it, they should have to pay the price.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
+3
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I started this thread because of a game where a humie was kicked by everyone after spawncamping for the entire game, and when the game was ending (humans win) he just kept painsawing the spawning aliens when he could easly have killed the egg.
But I agree that if the spawn was in a horrible tacitical postion, it is ok to get a few kills off it. But the whole game? It was starting to piss off even the human team.
Kinda funny that it was a human player that started the vote kick.
EDIT: yeah, I ment kick, not ban. Ban is to harsh.
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Is spawncamping a bannible offence?
I guess this is one of those things that depend on server rules. With other games there are servers that do and don't allow it. And if there is no rule, it's a valid strategy. Because of the nature of the game, I think it will never be a real problem for tremulous. If you are going to spawncamp, sooner or later, you or the spawnpoint will be destroyed. If during the game in question, someone was 'spawncamping for the entire game', and it was 'starting to piss off even the human team'. Why wasn't it simply destroyed?
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Spawn camping is fine until the last egg/node, then just finish it.
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Unless there's only one spawn left and the other team is only spawnkilling in order to prolong the match, no punishment should be given.
I feel it's a valid gameplay strategy. If someone screws up that badly and their team doesn't do anything about it, they should have to pay the price.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
+3
+4
Its the builders fault for building such a crappy base/building a crappy egg that the enemy is taking advantage of the situation.
Unless you are really camping, and just sitting there for like 5 minutes, then yeah, warn, then kick if nothing.
But if only for a few kills, just to get your creds up, I dont see the problem IMHO.
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Well, I think, the term "spawncamp" can be split according to several situations and the answer to "Ban?" depends on the situation.
a) It is obvious that a spawn was build by a griefer, like a telenode in front of the alien base.
In this case, the correct way of acting whould be to destroy the spawn asap, as there is no "proper builder" responsible for this. A kick should hit spawncampers and the griefer in this casebecause I consider the spawncamping as an important part of the griefing in this case.
b) The spawn was built by a proper builder in a bad location, so a dretch can sit on it or a human can snipe dretches coming out of it.
Well, as long as the team has a greater advantage from camping than the advantage from destroying it, it is legal in my opinion. A dretch is unable to kill a telenode, but it can sit on it and headchomp anyone coming out of it, if the human team is unable to kill it, it is their fault. However, if this is the last telenode, there is no advantage from camping longer than 2 - 3 kills, because then the dretch can evolve and kill it. Same with a bad egg, camp it, if thats better than killing it. Getting S2 fast as a human is a big advantage.
Thus, a kick should only occur if there is no real advantage from camping the spawns. If there is an advantage, it is a legal tactic.
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It's a strategic game. If a builder builds an egg/telenode in a stupid place, the other team is rewarded with the ability to feed off of it toward the next stage. Kick the builder that built the feeding spawn if you really need to place the blame somewhere. The other team is doing their job and playing the game.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
+5
I love doing this when the oppotunity presents.
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Yes, I am an Alien the size of a small car, and I will gladly take into consideration the stupidity of Humans when I stumble upon a unprotected Telenode. Instead of satisfying my hunger for warm, tender Human flesh, I will do them a favor and kill that ill-protected Telenode.
NOT
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Spawn camping is totally legit..
the only case it is not legit if it this node is the very last human building on the map and some goon just keeps to polish up his stats
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No but spelling bannable incorrectly is
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If I see people camping all the time, I just slap them out of their base with dmg 0.
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There's nothing wrong with spawncamping if the builder built an egg/node in a bad place. But many players have the bad habit of spawncamping when their victory is imminent.
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There was a discussion about this a while ago and, if I recall correctly, the general consensus then was that "if you screwed up, it's your fault". The logic is flawless.
However, Tremulous is a game and, like most games, it is meant first for having fun. Spawn camping is only fun for arrogant bastards who feel superior when their opponent is at a handicap (this is the same mentality people who cheat use: I'm winning. It feels good, even though I'm not doing any work).
But let's be honest, who finds standing next to a spawn killing whatever spawns fun? It gets very repetitive very quickly. The only thing slightly amusing about it is the frustration of the other team. After all, this is a very sadistic game (i.e., going around, shooting up your opponents).
People take the game way too seriously. It is a game. If you are competing for something, go ahead and take it seriously, but if it's every game... that's just sad. This is probably why most builders never try anything new. If they screw up, the other team will feed off their spawns and their team will blame them for the loss, insult them, and try to discourage them from building again.
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There was a discussion about this a while ago and, if I recall correctly, the general consensus then was that "if you screwed up, it's your fault". The logic is flawless.
However, Tremulous is a game and, like most games, it is meant first for having fun. Spawn camping is only fun for arrogant bastards who feel superior when their opponent is at a handicap (this is the same mentality people who cheat use: I'm winning. It feels good, even though I'm not doing any work).
But let's be honest, who finds standing next to a spawn killing whatever spawns fun? It gets very repetitive very quickly. The only thing slightly amusing about it is the frustration of the other team. After all, this is a very sadistic game (i.e., going around, shooting up your opponents).
People take the game way too seriously. It is a game. If you are competing for something, go ahead and take it seriously, but if it's every game... that's just sad. This is probably why most builders never try anything new. If they screw up, the other team will feed off their spawns and their team will blame them for the loss, insult them, and try to discourage them from building again.
There's nothing like getting burned to learn to stop playing with fire. If you do not tell your builders when they made a big mistake, they'll never know better.
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In other words, Stof thinks people should never try anything new. I, on the other hand, like change.
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Cool people vote no, or so I've heard.
+6
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In other words, Stof thinks people should never try anything new. I, on the other hand, like change.
Try it if you want, if it's stupid, you'll know.
As for building forward eggs, there are 3 situtations :
- it works
- it fails, humans killed the eggs and all your forward base in the operation
- it fails BADLY, humans took control of the zone and are feeding themselves to stage 3 with that egg
If experimenting means for you to fall in the third category, then by all means don't do it while I'm in the same team as you. It takes exceptionaly bad building to get to that point seeing as humans have an hard enouth time controling something that isn't behind their turrets.
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Tremulous is an online game. Online games are tehre so people can compete with each others over tests of skills. Spawn camping requires no skills, its just basically taking advantage of the other team, and is especially annoying in end of matches. I'm not against someone going right inside the enemy base and feeding off it, or taking a small advantage of a lying egg somewhere, but for god sake, kill that egg after a few kills.
Bannable offense? no
Kickable offense? Yes if over used(Say camping a spawn for 5 min+)
But its possible some server could rule spawn camping to be at the same level as malicious building.
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If player builds tele/egg on easy kill spot (outside base?) the tele/spawn should be killed instead used as feeding platform. Camping on spawn without trying to destroy it is bannable offence. Game objective is to destroy all spawns and then players, not the otherway around fools.
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If player builds tele/egg on easy kill spot (outside base?) the tele/spawn should be killed instead used as feeding platform. Camping on spawn without trying to destroy it is bannable offence. Game objective is to destroy all spawns and then players, not the otherway around fools.
Oh yeah, the berserker theory. I hope you ban any human that kills an alien before killing all the eggs in the map. Clearly, not killing the 3 tyrants before the egg behind them is a bannable offense 8)
Spawncamping in Trem is tactics : it gives you technology and money to buy new toys. Getting those before the other team is a GREAT help to win the game. Also, it might be somewhat frustrating to die just after spawning, but provided the spawn point wasn't the last available, you lose less time when that happens than if that spawn had been destroyed from the start.
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You are wimp if you spawn camp and no one likes to play with wimps
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Unless there's only one spawn left and the other team is only spawnkilling in order to prolong the match, no punishment should be given.
I feel it's a valid gameplay strategy. If someone screws up that badly and their team doesn't do anything about it, they should have to pay the price.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
+3
+4
Its the builders fault for building such a crappy base/building a crappy egg that the enemy is taking advantage of the situation.
Unless you are really camping, and just sitting there for like 5 minutes, then yeah, warn, then kick if nothing.
But if only for a few kills, just to get your creds up, I dont see the problem IMHO.
+7 (so tempting)
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You are wimp if you spawn camp and no one likes to play with wimps
Wimp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP)?
Yeah, name calling is such a good argument, I have no choice but to conceed you the point ;)
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Game objective is to destroy all spawns and then players, not the otherway around fools.
Unfortunate for you that the strategy to accomplish the objective is not so simple. It is too bad that you will ban people who may in fact be thinking very strategically.
Tremulous is an online game. Online games are tehre so people can compete with each others over tests of skills.
and strategy. Remember strategy anyone? Spawncamping a poorly placed egg is a strategy to gain a level before your opponent, giving you the edge.
This is not a standard FPS, YOU decide where the spawns go. Decide poorly and pay the price.
Few feeder eggs are built by accident, most are done to grief build.
That is pretty presumptuous. Most feeder eggs I've seen are built by inexperienced builders building a forward egg too close to human base and visible from some distance. That a new builder is causing you grief does not make them a "griefer" :)
Granted there are some instances where it is just some moron who wants their kill stats to look better. If it's s3, I don't mind. They aren't helping their team to destroy my base. Let them fatten their stats, we aliens have a base to destroy. :) The same goes for the bsuit'd psaws I seem to see alot recently who camp a corner just outside of the alien base and excel at mowing down dretch floods. They are welcome to waste their teams resources :)
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It isin't so bad when the spawn camping is done to increase your team's level, but when its done just to fatten your score, it now becomes a bad thing.
Taking into consideration that on a normal bp server(100) aliens usually have 2 eggs(Sometimes 3) one forward and 1-2 back in base, the chances of spawning from the forward feeding egg are usually of 50 percent. A human spawning can remove the node, on the other hand, a granger spawning, especially if facing a saw or shotgun, can possibly remove the egg unless the other guy is a complete moron.
this is the same mentality people who cheat use: I'm winning. It feels good, even though I'm not doing any work)
Already said, if your fun is just in making other's live useless, then go play somewhere else, the object of the game is to play, fight each others and have fun, not totaly obliterate your opponent when they can't retaliate.
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Nope, the chance to spawn in a forward egg are 0, unless all the eggs closer to the OM are "busy".
Besides, the goal isn't to make people miserable. After all, once you've been spawnkilled at that egg, nobody else will spawn here for some time. And if another egg is available you'll respawn in no time.
Also, don't forget the money factor: it is far easier to win the game with money than without ;)
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Nope, the chance to spawn in a forward egg are 0, unless all the eggs closer to the OM are "busy".
this is false, if you die you will spawn at the closest egg, if you spawn and stay alive for a certain amount of time, you will respawn at that egg, if you get killed before you reach that time limit, you will respawn at that egg a total of two times before spawning at another egg
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and strategy. Remember strategy anyone? Spawncamping a poorly placed egg is a strategy to gain a level before your opponent, giving you the edge.
Wikipedia says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy)A strategy is a long term plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal most often "winning". Strategy is differentiated from tactics or immediate actions with resources at hand.
(Emphasis added.) "Let's spawn camp" is no more of a strategy than "shoot the aliens". Spawn camping is a tactic used to get more money and/or better equipment/classes. It is slower than other tactics (unless you happened on an egg farm and your opponent is feeding, in which case you should just end the game already) and potentially involves sacrificing your base.
Nope, the chance to spawn in a forward egg are 0, unless all the eggs closer to the OM are "busy".
You will spawn from the ready spawn closest to where you last died. That usually means the spawn closest to your opponent's base.
Also, don't forget the money factor: it is far easier to win the game with money than without
If you need to spawn camp to get money, that implies that you fail at the alternative method of getting money: attacking the other team.
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"Let's spawn camp" is no more of a strategy than "shoot the aliens". Spawn camping is a tactic used to get more money and/or better equipment/classes. It is slower than other tactics (unless you happened on an egg farm and your opponent is feeding, in which case you should just end the game already) and potentially involves sacrificing your base.
Pointless argument. Call it tactics if you want, it doesn't matter here.
Nope, the chance to spawn in a forward egg are 0, unless all the eggs closer to the OM are "busy".
You will spawn from the ready spawn closest to where you last died. That usually means the spawn closest to your opponent's base.
Well, I was wrong. Doesn't matter too much anyway.
Also, don't forget the money factor: it is far easier to win the game with money than without
If you need to spawn camp to get money, that implies that you fail at the alternative method of getting money: attacking the other team.
Money is a bonus here. Stage advance is probably the best reason to feed on an badly placed spawn. Besides, if it wasn't for the risk of spawn killing, the only penalty for a badly placed egg would be that you have to rebuild it somewhere else. Mistakes made by the players need punishement.
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Only inexperienced aliens complain about spawn camping; kind of like the wolf pleading to the three little pigs. Sure, some turret defenses are designed like brick houses, when others more like straw. However, any clever wolf knows that turrets cannot fire with a human humping it. And on friendly fire servers, oh boy, it's a regular goon smorgasbord. Do you know how much easier it is as a goon hitting his target with humans trapped and less maneuverable in their own maze? So, I say, hump those turrets you lab rats. If you only knew what laughs I get during that one second as spectator after death, watching you either rip your base apart or the smug feeling I get after gaining another quick 3 or 4 evos while stuffing my black belly in your own brick house.
Of course, we're talking about s1 hums here. At s2 and s3 for hums, well, experienced aliens just feast on a few hums for evos on their way to turretville again, or just lure some out to chase your moans after pouncing a turret or two. After a quick heal, it's off to taking out armories and such.
Ban? No. However, I say we ban camping aliens - Tyrants with 5 or move evos or s1 goons over 3 hiding behind corners. What?! 'Tis a disgrace to our Overmind. Even it knows a tab tapper from a show stopper when it sees one...
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Oops. You said spawncamping. Nah, no ban. You make stupid mistakes, you suffer from those mistakes. Just like mine above and reading comprehension.
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(FYI, I'm not arguing that people should be banned for spawn camping, only that it should be discouraged because it is petty and often serves no real purpose.)
Money is a bonus here. Stage advance is probably the best reason to feed on an badly placed spawn.
Stage advancement is not necessary to win, especially when your opponent really screwed up.
Besides, if it wasn't for the risk of spawn killing, the only penalty for a badly placed egg would be that you have to rebuild it somewhere else.
Even ignoring "glitched eggs" and spawn camping, there are plenty of penalties for badly placed spawns.
Mistakes made by the players need punishement.
How very righteous of you.
Actually no, punishment is not needed for making mistakes. Hopefully, people can learn from mistakes instead of being harassed every time they make one.
You say "the goal isn't to make people miserable" but then you say that mistakes should be punished.
You also said "If experimenting means [failing badly], then by all means don't do it while I'm in the same team as you". Since the whole purpose of experimentation is to find out what does and does not work, this means you never want anyone on your team to try anything new.
You take the game way too seriously.
Only inexperienced aliens complain about spawn camping
Actually I've heard plenty of experienced players, humans and aliens, complain about it. I don't bother. If the game doesn't seem like it's going to end soon and the other team is compulsed to spawn camp, I usually find a different server.
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We should give every player that spawns invincibility for half an hour to fix the spawn camping bug
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Seems to me the OP did not understand this game at all.
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(FYI, I'm not arguing that people should be banned for spawn camping, only that it should be discouraged because it is petty and often serves no real purpose.)
I rarely see it, except for endgame when there is one node left and some idiot tyrant is standing over it waiting...
On the rare occassion I have seen a camped, or even very campable egg there are typically enough experienced players anymore that know to decon such a thing, and know how :)
If at all possible, I have and will spawn camp a node inside of the human base as a dretch. It is typically only good for 1-3 kills, and only works once per server. After that humans begin putting turrets near their base, what a novel idea...
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If at all possible, I have and will spawn camp a node inside of the human base as a dretch. It is typically only good for 1-3 kills, and only works once per server. After that humans begin putting turrets near their base, what a novel idea...
Well said. I've seen some admins (who purport to be experts at this game), threaten with a kick vote as I camp telenodes early on in maps like karith. My reply? "Just one turret and we wouldn't be having this discussion. You've been playing this game how long again?"
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Unless there's only one spawn left and the other team is only spawnkilling in order to prolong the match, no punishment should be given.
I feel it's a valid gameplay strategy. If someone screws up that badly and their team doesn't do anything about it, they should have to pay the price.
This isn't TFC. A campable spawn means someone screwed up. Also, kills help your team. Thus, spawncamping is playing the game correctly. Building a campable spawn is playing the game incorrectly.
+3
+8
I didn't vote either way because its not a hard and fast rule, but I think it's cheap and shouldn't be done.
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Spawncamping for only a few kills, in my opinion, is okay. One team made an error, the other team gains from that error. Seems to be okay to me.
However, there are those who overdo it, and who just keep on camping a lone egg/telenode. At that point, it becomes irritating and stupid.
Easy victories because of spawncampers aren't fun.
Long, intense games where one team ends up winning because they employed a nice strategy, are fun.
In other words: get about 8 kills, then kill the telenode/egg...
The problem isn't that much of a problem, though. I usually see people spawncamping at either Arachnid, just after the Humans moved upstairs but forgot a Telenode (dumb!), or at Karith, whenever a Dretch manages to hide behind the default telenode positions. What's always funny though (especially on Arachnid) is when humans keep spawning with Rifle instead of with CKit to decon the telenode... :P
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TK (or shoot away from node, works when ff off) for faster spawning and kick if doesn't seem to be much wiser. If rejoins and continues doing the same thing = BAN
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Easy victories because of spawncampers aren't fun.
Long, intense games where one team ends up winning because they employed a nice strategy, are fun.
i would say the opposite, if my team made a mistake that the other team took advantage of (bad move, unprotected spawn, etc.) i would rather they end the game quickly rather than playing an hour long game where my team stands no chance of victory. when i see the other team make a mistake like that, i do the same thing to them that i would expect them to do to me (end the game quickly).
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Killing a few people on a spawn before destroying it is not spawn camping. Standing near a spawn for the sole purpose of killing people once they spawn is spawn camping. This is part of my problem with it. A 50 minute game where both teams are fairly even is much faster than a 10 minute game where most of the time was spent spawn camping.
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Spawn camping is a great way to torment the enemy, they're already loosing if you're in their base owning their doodz off the spawn, spawn camping just make s it more fun. Why would you back away and give them another chance when you're doing good at the moment? You can spawn camp, then '/donate' your evolves to the team on end the game quicker. The team being spawn camped should be smart enough to spawn builder and decon the spawn or build an acid/turret near it.
Chat-killing is also great, even Jesus does it.
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8375/19991119hpw6.jpg)