Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Arch_Enemy on January 24, 2007, 06:49:30 am
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Ok recently gamearena has been banning people that has been using chompers ui mod, i want to know how many people use it now or have used it in the past on gamearena.
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cprebound has banned me permanently from GA over it, while I was playing human too.
I've never once said whether or not I use it, but got banned anyway. I did say in game that I dont think it is a cheat and as such it should be allowed, and was permanently banned on the spot without either a warning or a request to not use custom HUDs.
I would advise against arguing with cprebound in-game, since disagreeing with him in-game is a bannable offense.
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Bad admins on Terrible servers FTW!
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Bad admins on Terrible servers FTW!
+avacado's number
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nah chompers im not arguing with rebound or anything i just putted this poll up to see how many ppl use it or have used it on gamearena.
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i don't think i've ever been on game arena before. besides, there are plenty of other servers to go to if you get banned from one.
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I voted yes, even though I'd never even think about playing on GA. People banning for UI mods are retarded.
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I voted yes, even though I'd never even think about playing on GA. People banning for UI mods are retarded.
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i don't think i've ever been on game arena before. besides, there are plenty of other servers to go to if you get banned from one.
This is unfortunately not the case if you're Australian. There is one other public server available to us with < 100 ping, it's the iiNet server which is running standard v1.1.0, so it is full of bugs and hacks.
My options are to look around for an American server running unlagged and deal with the 250+ ping, or to dodge the ban by changing my nick, IP and GUID, or to just quit playing trem altogether.
Right now, I'm thinking it will be the last one.
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lol permantly banning a person from a server for using a crosshair is just fucking stupid. did they have any proof that u had the ui mod on at the time chompers? lol
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I voted yes, even though I'd never even think about playing on GA. People banning for UI mods are retarded.
was this a QFT post, or just a mistake?
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wth is qft?
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Would it help if us non-australians made it a point to go to the server and begin immediately arguing, fill his ban list and generally (though politely) hassle this person just for being such a jerk? What do I care if I get kicked from a +200 ping server :P
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heh, thanks for the offer tuple, but I do not advocate griefing the GameArena servers on my behalf at all.
If you really must let cprebound know what you think, please do it in a way that doesn't disrupt the game for the other players there, ie. private message or something.
But a handful of internationals dropping in to tell cprebound he's an idiot won't change anything, I'm pretty sure he already knows what the players on GA think of him.
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Go post in the GA forums them ( talking to chompers here )
That forum is fun to read, half the posts by link` have been removed by admins for inapropriate content :D Scratch that, 99% of his posts have been removed :o
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Well you have been banned for a crime you have not commited, they are labeling you as a cheater / hacker which is not the case.
You should not be banned you have modded something in an online game that is open source and you are allowed to make custom huds.
Prehaps you can see about getting iinet to upgrade to a better server like TJWs and you could also get admin, if iinet dont have admins on thier servers they will get some.
http://games.iinet.com.au/
If iinet had the better servers then i would play on them as i get better ping on iinet then i do GA.
Also if thier servers are more active then you will see more iinet trem servers.
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raar, raar, fight the POWAH! and all that
[01:00] <Timbo> the whole aliens crosshair thing is ridiculous
[01:00] <Timbo> the only reason they don't have them is because they're kind of redundant
[01:01] <Timbo> since the hti detection is so wide anyway, very little accuracy is required
[01:01] <Timbo> hit even
[01:01] <mercury__> you mean as alien you hit by not even aiming at the bbox or you mean that the bbox has a wide angle at the distances aliens attack?
[01:01] * Firebird8 has joined #tremulous
[01:02] <Timbo> i mean the trace that does the hit detection is a bbox itself
[01:02] <Timbo> it's not just a line
[01:02] <mercury__> oh
Heh Bug, that is some deja-vu - it was EvilJimmy, myself and a couple of others who pestered GameArena to install trembot in the first place, I think I was even an admin there when they finally installed it, but it was around that time I stopped playing for a few months. Anyway, EvillJimmy is an ex-iiNet employee, and we both LAN with the guy who set up, and used to run iHug games (aka iiNet Games sydney) but even so, Jimmy reckons contacting iiNet about their trem server is a waste of time.
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raar, raar, fight the POWAH! and all that.
chompers, little Fletchy's lonely without its animations...
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My options are to look around for an American server running unlagged and deal with the 250+ ping, or to dodge the ban by changing my nick[...]
[ After rushing to the elevator room on Karith at S1, the admin playing on humans briefs his team... ]
Lt. Gamearena, "Good morning, Marines. I'm sorry we didn't have time to brief you people before we left this base, but... "
Hudson, "Sir?"
Lt. Gamearena, "What is it Hicks? Didn't I ban you from this server?"
Hudson, "Hudson, sir. He's Hicks."
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wth is qft?
it means "quoted for truthery"
...i think
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+avacado's number
my chemistry teacher would throw acid on my face every time i said that.
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i don't think i've ever been on game arena before. besides, there are plenty of other servers to go to if you get banned from one.
This is unfortunately not the case if you're Australian. There is one other public server available to us with < 100 ping, it's the iiNet server which is running standard v1.1.0, so it is full of bugs and hacks.
My options are to look around for an American server running unlagged and deal with the 250+ ping, or to dodge the ban by changing my nick, IP and GUID, or to just quit playing trem altogether.
Right now, I'm thinking it will be the last one.
There is always the [TK] Clan server you can join. I get around 35 ping there. 8)
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who r u thunderbird? lol
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+avacado's number
my chemistry teacher would throw acid on my face every time i said that.
My teacher just makes me hang over a vat of sulfuric acid, no biggie
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There are several points here.
Even though you don't like the fact you got banned, Its a private server, Hosted publically meaning its not a democracy. I know it sucks but its true, alot of people like having power just to abuse it. Try out our server [OPP]public we dont care what hud your running, crosshairs cant be detected anyways. Plus there is nothing against putting a spitball on ur monitor for a crosshair. I used a spitball for months in cs scoutzknivez its the only reason I dont need a alien crosshair.
P.S. Me and my brother run [OPP]Public. I hope you get decent ping, but we have a no cussing rule. Its not that severe just mostly the f word. We don't have the rule posted but the first offense is a verbal warning, and people keep pushing it. We don't tolerate assholes either.
Isnt the new trem version going to have alien crosshairs?
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Thanks BeerBastard and ThunderBird, I'll check out my ping on both your servers.
edit: My ping to the TK server is pretty good, but it's passworded. I did see the password mentioned over at GA a couple of times, but never wrote it down. you could tell me in PM thunderbird, but doesn't a passworded server just end up empty all the time?
Stof, I've joined the GA forums and started up with the long diatribes of protest there, currently the cp mod-squad outnumbers and outranks (GameOp = forum moderator) the regular players there.
As I said, I hate the idea of the GA servers being disrupted because of this, but by all means, if you do play on the those servers, join the forums at http://www.gamearena.com.au/messageboards/tremulous/
and add your voice to the discussion there. I'd appreciate some support from the community.
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After reading the arguments made by the gamearena game-ops and administrators, I feel the apt time for this has come:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/Sephylight/sealofapproval.gif)
Congratulations are due to the gamearena team, for proving how fucktarded they are! :D
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Chompers, just post on their message board that the Quake 3 engine was DESIGNED to allow custom huds on PURE servers. That's what the ui cfg files are about.
If they can still call that a cheat after that, then you'd better never play there again.
Then, looking about their choice of admin I say, don't bother it isn't worth it. Unless it is the only good server available for you.
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heh, Stof, I'm banned from their messageboards now as well. The reason they gave me for that ban: Avoiding another ban. :eek:
Go figure.
Anyway, earlier today I sent a stupidly long email to one of the other GameOps there who I've known to at least be mature and rational in the past, this is after he basically asked me to keep my head down, swear not to use the HUD and to remove the link to it from their forum. I'll paste it here so at least people will know that someone read all this and still decided that banning chompers was the right thing to do. Don't say I didn't warn you though, it really is stupidly long.
You say it's a contentious issue, but any contention exists only in the mind of yourself and rebound. Even the overly vocal champion of the anti-crosshair cause on the tremulous boards, Lava Croft, when asked on IRC agrees that custom HUDs are not a 'cheat' and has said that being banned over it is "totally retarded"
You ask for my word that I will not use crosshairs on GA, but I'm sure that's not exactly what you mean, since humans and two of the alien classes have crosshairs on by default.
If you're asking for my word that I will not use Custom HUDs, then I can't agree to that at all. My HUD is simply better, for me at least. When the next version of tremulous comes out, there is a good chance it's going to make a LOT more information legally available to the HUD. Things like your teammate's health and ammo. There's no way I can agree not to 'fix' something I haven't yet seen, who knows how 'broken' it's going to be?
I assume you have your own binds set up, would you comply if you were told you cannot use custom binds at all? Because to me, it is exactly the same issue.
But, if you're asking for my word that I will not use a custom HUD that includes illegal information such as the rumoured HUD with a permanent radar, then sure, you have my word on that. I have never done that, and you *can't* do that without invalidating your client against pure servers. It is very well defined in code by the developers what information can and cannot be legally accessed by the HUD.
If you're making a GameArena specific distinction between illegal content and unfair content though, well, I do not consider any of the changes to be unfair. The HUD I personally use is not exactly the same as the one in public distribution. On the human team, I can see my entire inventory at all times, without having to scroll the mousewheel. Is that unfair in your opinion? Should I, as a modder, have every little change approved by you and cprebound before I use or release it? Should I avoid GA when I am testing out new changes to a HUD in development?
Can you at least appreciate why I would think this is completely unreasonable?
If rebound owned and maintained the server, he could easily modify the server code to force all players to load the default HUD. But this is not the case. In a game where every second server runs their own little customisations, this is not something that anyone has even thought of doing.
I wouldn't be too worried about me writing an aimbot or anything like that, my goal is not to make the game unplayable. It would be trivial for me to write a modified client that fills up every available player slot and prevents anyone from playing on GA, but that is counter-productive, and not something I would ever do.
On the other hand, if I think up a simple hack that will make GA unadministerable *without* disturbing the game for regular players... something that will cause rebound to give up in frustration, then you bet I will do it.
Trog stated this in Jimmy's thread: "We're prepared to grant an exception if the circumstances warrant it, though if they're going to build it into the game we'd prefer to wait until they do that."
Now I ask you to consider the fact that legal HUD customisation *has* been puposely built into tremulous already, and such an exception is truly warranted for Tremulous. This is something that is endorsed by the entire Tremlous community, and I urge you to consider making the exception for Tremlous on GameArena, rather than making GameArena the exception to the rule within the Tremulous community, which is what the case is currently.
You said that you and rebound came to this decision on IRC, is this a public channel I can join, or are you refering to a private conversation?
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I do hope that the next Tremulous version will include in big bold letters that custom huds are possible.
With the release of Quake III: Team Arena (Quake3 point release 1.27), Id Software introduced a new method of creating menus. Instead of creating the menus in the C code of a QVM, menus can be described in menu description files, in a sort of menu-scripting language. These are plaintext files that are more flexible and customizable than C-based menus.
For further customizations, these files can be read off the user's filesystem, outside of pak (pk3) files. As a result, a customized menu can be used regardless of whether the server is in pure mode or not. (XXX: Describe pure mode.) The restriction, though, is that the filename must end with ``.menu'' or ``.cfg''. Only then may Q3A (and mods based on it) be able to read from the filesystem instead of only from a pak (pk3) file.
Note: the HUD is a menu.
cg_hudFiles Controls the type or layout of the HUD being displayed, in Team Arena a smaller HUD gives you a slight gain in FPS.
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a) Go fuck yourself Seffylight, you're a fucking moron.
b) :]
c) What a lot of people seem not to understand is that GameArena servers are owned, controlled and operated by GameArena. If you do not like us, go elsewhere. The dev team of Tremulous has our gratitude for making a good game, but they do not decide what constitutes cheating on our servers. We can make a rule that you must spam at least 5 lines a minute of "LOL FAG" and that's our right. People need to understand that you don't have control over what you made. That's why the GPL exists.
d) Unlike just about every other Tremulous server in existence, the GameArena servers are operated not by one person, but by a major telecommunications company. I am not the major shareholder of Telstra (the Australian Government is, at the moment) so I can't change Telstra policy. As a GameOp, it's my job and the job of the other ops to enforce the Code of Conduct. Think of it like being in the police - you don't make the law, you just enforce it.
Chompers was banned from GameArena because he admitted to breaking the Code of Conduct. The ban was completely justified by said Code. However, the ops have had a talk about the morality of banning someone for something undetectable, and we've offered Chompers his access back, provided he complies with a few non-ardous requests. We are able to do this because the Code of Conduct provides us with discretionary powers.
Reasonable or not, GameArena has the power to enforce whatever it wants. Lavacroft, jumping onto GA's forums and attacking a completely unrelated third party while telling us that we can't run our own server isn't going to score you any points. Having a huge postcount over here isn't going to make your opinions more important over there. And FYI, your postcount at GA is "2".
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You permabanned a guy from your server because you thought he was using a modified hud.
Using your metaphor of you as a cop, this is how the above statement would read:
You gave a guy a life sentence because you thought he put on a custom pair of glasses.
Honestly, you are fucking retarded. Seffylight's post was beyond funny, and actually showed off your good side.
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you know 1337
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you know 1337
i know all
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Rrrrrright. So, if I photoshop your face into the Goatse guy's cavity, that's "showing off your good side"?
Interesting values you've got over there in your little world, aren't they?
For starters, it wasn't MY ban.
Also, you fail to understand at all what I am actually saying here.
If the law said that you gave people lifesentences for wearing custom glasses, it would be the job of the police to do so. It would not be their job to say "hey wait i don't like that law; I'll only enforce laws that I like."
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If the law said that you gave people lifesentences for wearing custom glasses, it would be the job of the police to do so. It would not be their job to say "hey wait i don't like that law; I'll only enforce laws that I like."
Yes it would, not as a cop but as a citizen!
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So, you're only going to abide by rules you like?
Great.
Should I call the FBI now, or after you kill me for arguing?
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It seems you cannot make the difference between unpopular rules and completly unjust and unjustified rules.
But I understand why you do not want to see such rule overturned. After all, you've banned someone based on that despite the fact that the rule itself is stupid. Overturning that decision would show to the world that you've ( you here doesn't necesary mean you as an individual ) made a mistake and some people don't like admiting to that.
Swallow your pride, admit that it was a mistake and get rid of that stupid rule is the best that can happen.
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Rrrrrright. So, if I photoshop your face into the Goatse guy's cavity, that's "showing off your good side"?
Interesting values you've got over there in your little world, aren't they?
For starters, it wasn't MY ban.
Also, you fail to understand at all what I am actually saying here.
If the law said that you gave people lifesentences for wearing custom glasses, it would be the job of the police to do so. It would not be their job to say "hey wait i don't like that law; I'll only enforce laws that I like."
Why would you photoshop me onto a tooth? wtf would that do?
My little world is called Earth.
You as in retarded gamearena admins.
Even if someone was retarded enough to say wearing custom glasses is against the law, which is completely stupid in its own regard, you banned him because you THOUGHT he was wearing them. Not because you knew.
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you banned him because you THOUGHT he was wearing them. Not because you knew.
Is an admission of guilt proof enough. I ask because I'm curious, not because I flame.
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Swallow your pride, admit that it was a mistake and get rid of that stupid rule is the best that can happen.
AHHHH MORON HASN'T READ MY POST.
I. CANNOT. CHANGE. GAME. ARENA. POLICY.
UNLIKE. YOUR. AD-HOC. SERVERS. GAMEARENA. IS. RUN. BY. A. MAJOR. CORPORATION. AND. I. AM. ONLY. EMPLOYED. TO. ENFORCE. THEIR. POLICIES.
ARE YOU FUCKING UNEMPLOYED OR WHAT?! If your boss (AND THAT IS WHAT TELSTRA IS, FOR ME) tells you to do something you DO IT.
Whining like a little bitch and flaming me for doing what I AM LEGALLY REQUIRED TO DO AS PART OF A SIGNED CONTRACT is not going to get you anywhere.
All the negative opinion in the world is not going to make me stop enforcing GameArena policy because I'd rather have you morons hate me than let myself get SUED FOR BREACH-OF-CONTRACT.
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Doesn't your contract say something about acting like a jackass in an official capacity?
You giving you employers a bad images, and people have been fired for less.
Perhaps someone should file an official complaint about your trolling.
Or just ignore a server with stupid rules.
Maybe I should make a server where using the tyrant counts as cheating?
I know its a feature and all, but I just feel like banning it today.
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The dev team of Tremulous has our gratitude for making a good game, but they do not decide what constitutes cheating on our servers.
Well if they dont, go play another game.
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If you all could go and file a complaint about our behaivour (specifically enforcement of the rules) then we'd appreciate it.
Not only would you be getting us a pat on the back, you might even be complaining to someone who can actually change the things you dislike. Wow!
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Geesh, leave seraph alone, willya?
Yes, the rule is retarded but as seraph said: he cannot change it.
And really, i dont think this is like the most important thing in his life, so he wouldnt have thought it over and over and over and over and over
Well, i won't take any sides in this cause since i know neither the gamearena people, chompers or his hud, but i think you are being unfair towards Seraph.
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Well, i won't take any sides in this cause since i know neither the gamearena people, chompers or his hud, but i think you are being unfair towards Seraph.
Hear, Hear. Good on you Bajsefar, you seem to be one of the few mature posters. You get my vote.
I am also one of those supposed 'retarded' GameArena GameOps who most of you seem to flame without due concideration of the situation we have. Most of the posts flaming us are emotive and truly base, with few actual ligitimate arguments. Baj, anytime you want to join us on GameArena you are more than welcome. I respect maturity.
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There are still some things I just don't get.
Firstly, if there is some specific policy that defines what constitutes a 'cheat' on GA, then please show it to me. How many times do I have to ask this? If that policy is not public and well defined, how is anyone supposed to adhere to it?
Next, on the one hand I see you guys (Seraph and FisherP) saying publicly here that you're just GameOps following orders, and that you are powerless to change the rules, and yet on the other hand you are willing to negotiate with me in private. Surely if you were powerless, then no negotiation could be entered into. The ridiculous hoops you've asked me to jump through in order to be unbanned, are they official GameArena policy handed down from on high as well?
And the hoops! To say publicly that you AREN'T in fact powerless at all, but instead stand alongside the GA admins as the final authority on what breaks the rules on GameAreana. Come on guys, which is it?
I will say publicly that I do not support cheating, I never have, nor have I ever done anything in game I would consider a cheat. And OK, it's fine if there is some special set of rules laid down for GameArena as to what constitues a cheat, but please, if that definition differs so radically from the common definition as to warrant a permanent ban without warning for behaviour that is considered elsewhere to be perfectly normal, then for the love of Timbo, the least you can do is show us the rules.
The rest of the hoops are outrageous, but you've asked for a public statement, so...
I will not state publicly that I do not use a custom HUD, and then go on to use one in secret anyway because it is undetectable. I will not lie for the sake of making it appear that you are in the right.
Nor will I remove access to files on my webserver from Australian IP's. You control a server, not the entire Country, and I am not the one who chose to attempt to enforce a rule which even you admit is unenforcable. That responsibility lies with you. If you must enforce it, then go ahead and say you're enforcing it, whether or not I am banned, you're still lying to yourselves, to the admins, and to the players.
The fact stands that the ability to cutomise HUDs within reason is already built into the game. Whatever your (apparently secret) policy is regarding HUDs, it was not written with Tremulous in mind, and one ounce of common sense applied with authority to this affair will sweep away the entire issue for good. Just reverse your decision.
You discussed this matter in private and came to a decision all by yourselves, but did any of you actually try out the HUD first? I mean, you are aware that keeping the crosshairs aligned with a player's head on screen and running toward them does not actually give you a headshot as dretch, right? Now that I think of it, maybe I should add a second dot, higher up just for that purpose, not for use on GameArena... of course.
I have yet to see whatever you sent me on the GA forum by the way. When you ban someone from your forums for being banned in game, they can't access their PMs either.
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I mean, you are aware that keeping the crosshairs aligned with a player's head on screen and running toward them does not actually give you a headshot as dretch, right?
Then why have the cross hairs there at all, and if Timbo didn't put the hairs there because they gave no advantage then why did u put them there? hmmmm?
It seems as if we are at a stalemate. You won't remove the cross-hairs, or access to it, and we can't let people play if we know they have them.
Who is being unreasonable? You for insisting on them even though they supposedly do not give an advantage, or us for following a policy which says that if there is any more information on the HUD which isn't on the default then it's a cheat?
Who is being more stubborn? If it's not really a big deal to have them, then why must people insist that they do have them? You are right on one thing though the policy was not written for Tremulous, but for all the games on GameArena. As GameOps we, as Seraph outlined, are legally obligued to follow those policies. You on the other hand are not legally obligued to keep the cross-hairs there. The solution is then quite simple if you know where I am heading.
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It seems as if we are at a stalemate. You won't remove the cross-hairs, or access to it, and we can't let people play if we know they have them.
WOW! You guys are complete tools! YOU can block access to them by shutting down your server and black holeing the tremulous.net dns record for your customers.
http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3087&highlight=crosshair+console
edit:ok, after reading this thread (http://"http://www.gamearena.com.au/messageboards/tremulous/thread.php/4010520") on the game arena boards, I feel I should apologize for so clearly stating the obvious.
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Who is being unreasonable? You for insisting on them even though they supposedly do not give an advantage, or us for following a policy which says that if there is any more information on the HUD which isn't on the default then it's a cheat?
Who is being more stubborn? If it's not really a big deal to have them, then why must people insist that they do have them? You are right on one thing though the policy was not written for Tremulous, but for all the games on GameArena. As GameOps we, as Seraph outlined, are legally obligued to follow those policies. You on the other hand are not legally obligued to keep the cross-hairs there. The solution is then quite simple if you know where I am heading.
what policies exactly are you following? unless you have written otherwise in a place where everyone can see it, one would assume that you would follow the devs' opinion on what is and isn't cheating. one of the earlier posts said timbo doesn't consider adding crosshairs to be cheating, since that doesn't seem to be enough for you...
<kevlarman> btw, what's your stand on alien crosshairs
<tjdubya> i don't think they're that valuable
<kevlarman> i agree
<kevlarman> but what do you think about all the people who call it cheating
<tjdubya> whiners
<tjdubya> i guess technically it is kind of cheating in theory just because they're using a modified client on a pure server
<tjdubya> ends == insignificant
<tjdubya> means == questionable
<tjdubya> should fix the client engine so it honors sv_pure there
<kevlarman> it's a cvar that you are allowed to change though
<kevlarman> it would have been extremely easy to mark it CVAR_CHEAT
<tjdubya> oh really?
<kevlarman> yeah
<tjdubya> i thought they had to modify ui files
<kevlarman> ui_hudfiles
<kevlarman> no
<tjdubya> i see
<kevlarman> they change ui_hudfiles to point to a file outside the pk3's
<tjdubya> then i don't see it as cheating at all
I don't think anyone has any reason to be upset if other players are using a crosshair as a dretch.
I'll even poke Timbo about having it as an option in the menu for the next patch.
Aliens should be getting official crosshairs in the next version so this shouldn't be an issue.
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One thing I've learned... It's useless trying to talk to someone who won't listen
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And I bet you wish you'd realised that a page ago, FIsherP.
Chompers, we have gone WAY out of our way for you on this. If the admins decided to do a check on what's happening, we could conceivably be in trouble for offering you this help.
If you don't want to be involved, fine. I'm not going to bother any further. FisherP and I had to do a LOT of arguing to make that PM official.
We didn't ask you for anything ridiculous. As I said, what is and isn't allowable on a server is the concern and area of responsibility of the administrators of that server, no-one else. We don't want every moron we ban running over here to see if he can get Timbo or TJW to overrule us on a ban. So we asked you to publicly state what I consider to be the bloody obvious.
As for the ban on downloads, that's not exactly a big deal for you. Consider: GameArena is IT if you want to play Trem in Australia. Anyone downloading your UI from Australia is doing it in order to use it on GameArena servers. We aren't allowed to let you use that UI. The sole and only reason that we were able to offer you your place back was that we rationalised that stopping others from cheating is more important than banning one person for it. And before you start, GameArena considers use of your UI cheating. I may not. TremDev may not. Fisher may not. Rebound may not. But GameArena does, and that's all there is to it. We do not want people cheating. If that's defined as cheating, that's the end of the argument as far as GameArena servers are concerned.
Consider: We were offering you (in the eyes of Telstra, an admitted cheater) immunity from ban if you co-operated. That's a big deal, mate.
If you don't want to accept our offer, that's your right. I've gone out of my way to help you on someone else's ban. I got up early in order to argue with people senior to me for you. Way to be grateful, mate.
Nobody from GameArena is going to waste any more time on this. We do not need to negotiate with you. We do not need your approval.
EDIT: Sure, I'll go start writing an offical Rules post. So that if you decide to accept our offer you don't get caught out again.
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Talking to seraph and FisherP here. Who else is better placed than YOU to convey to the GameArena owners the fact that the trem community as a whole ( or nearly ) does not consider changing the HUD as cheating? Does the one making that policy ever played Tremulous?
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Bad admins on Terrible servers FTW!
cprebound is an awsome admin!
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Seraph and FisherP,
Get off your high horse. If you are corporate tools with no authority to make change and can only act as an official mouthpiece then go pollute someone else's boards with you utter crap. We don't give a flying shit that you woke up early and (oh my god!) had an argument with your superiors.
Your tone is offensive at BEST and the arrogance makes it even more annoying to read your worthless repeat of someone elses rules. In the future, just post a link to the rules page and SHUT THE HELL UP.
As for the ban on downloads, that's not exactly a big deal for you. Consider: GameArena is IT if you want to play Trem in Australia. Anyone downloading your UI from Australia is doing it in order to use it on GameArena servers. We aren't allowed to let you use that UI. The sole and only reason that we were able to offer you your place back was that we rationalised that stopping others from cheating is more important than banning one person for it.
Seriously, how much more of a tool could you be? If someone that I work for actually had the nerve to tell me to try and strongarm someone else into what they should offer on their own server, I'd tell my employer to do it themselves.
You actually tried to tell him what he could host on his own server? Seriously, are you that stupid? It is SOOOOO nonsensical that you can only be trying to strongarm him so you (your corporation, you don't seem to have self determination) will save face and maintain the appearance of doing what is rule-abiding regardless of how silly and utterly pointless it is.
Seriously, if you have no control or authority over the situation just post a link to the appropriate site where the rules are and quit talking. You have nothing else to say and talking to you is of no benefit to anyone, so no longer present us with the illusion that it is.
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You're right in thinking I'm stubborn Fisher, but I have been listening to you. What I'm hearing from you just appalls me, so I can see why you'd think I was unreasonable even though I've done my utmost to reason with you.
You (well, rebound) ban me from GA servers, so I registered on GA forums. You (well, rebound again) lock the thread which was set up for rational discussion there, delete a post because one line in it referenced a thread locking, then ban me from your forums altogether, for "avoiding another ban?" Then you (Seraph) say you want a public statement from me supporting the authority which you claim not to have. To top it all, when I have no other avenue for discourse but these forums, you go on to say you don't want people "running to Timbo" to overturn a ban?
You call me an admitted cheater, but refuse to show me the rule I am breaking, I'm starting to doubt it even exists. Also you refuse to show me where I 'admitted' it, please correct me if I am wrong, but the only place I am aware of that I 'admitted' to even using the HUD was here in this forum, in the very same thread where you (FisherP) came along months later and said you were OK with it.
So, first I'm told it's all OK by FisherP in a thread here, then I'm banned out of the blue by rebound, then I'm told what FisherP said was not his "official stance", then I'm told by FisherP it's mostly OK, I just need to lose the crosshairs and keep my head down, then I'm told by Seraph I can use whatever I want, if I just say that I don't use any custom HUD at all.
And I'm unreasonable?
When your rules remain undisclosed, when they change every time you try to voice them, how do you expect me to comply? And if I do roll over and comply with the rule of the moment, what's next? Do you honestly think under those conditions that I would last 5 minutes on a server without being banned by rebound again for something equally as trivial as a static dot on my screen? Come on, you must know the guy. I've seen a 200 pinger on GA save his team from losing by spawning as ckit and hiding from my goon between the last three turrets, then rebound gets back to base and bans the guy for rebuilding 'turret, turret, armory' when rebound wanted 'armory turret, turret'. This is who you have as a GameOp, this is whose decision you are endorsing.
I'm done with this too, and you're right, at the moment GameArena is all there is if you want to play Trem in Australia, too bad for me, I guess, I am done with tremulous for a while. The only time you will see me on GA is if I drop in to let people know about a new server. In the meantime please do us all a favour, go and write down your rules which you say you can't set.
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Hey Chompers m8, tk has taken the pass off the server so u and jimmy are welcome on our server, since rebound decided to ban silver_wolf we will try to make our server abit more active
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Awesome, thanks Arch, my ping to TK is roughly the same as it is to GA.
Anyway, to answer your question FisherP, I prefer crosshair because I am used to it in an FPS, I'm far more comfortable with it than without it. When I am hugging the wall as a dretch in Tremor, it helps to judge my heading and saves me getting momentarily snagged on the supports that stick out from the wall. When I jump from one wall to another it helps me guage where I will land. When I pounce a goon it helps me judge the height and distance. And yes, in a certain, limited situation when I jump a dretch past a human and face sideways so that my bite passes across their bounding box at head height, it helps me to judge what is level and exactly where I am in relation to the apex of the jump. It is extremely useful, but not for the reasons you think. Try it out yourself, you'll see exactly how useful it is and why it is in no way a cheat.
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You call me an admitted cheater, but refuse to show me the rule I am breaking, I'm starting to doubt it even exists. Also you refuse to show me where I 'admitted' it, please correct me if I am wrong, but the only place I am aware of that I 'admitted' to even using the HUD was here in this forum, in the very same thread where you (FisherP) came along months later and said you were OK with it.
Read back through seraphs posts, he points out that GameArena has the stance anything not included in the DEFAULT options for information presented to the user is considered a cheat.
ie. without your ui mod there is no way in trem 1.1.0 to turn on crosshairs for all the other aliens save the few that have it standard.
However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.
Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.
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However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.
Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.
I've looked at the custom menu things and the game source code, and there is no way to make the radar always display. In fact, in the official hud the radar is always displayed, it's just that the cgame vm will render nothing on it unless you have the helmet.
Do not confuse a simple HUD change with some advanced cheating that requires hacking pk3 files and pure server check.
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However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.
Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.
it's impossible to add a permanent radar to the human hud without circumventing the game's cheat protections system, the HUD component for the radar is _always_ on the human hud, but it refuses to draw itself unless you are wearing a helmet. Simply adding crosshairs or rearranging the positions of your health/ammo/etc. doesn't require any cheating, and if the devs intended to make custom huds cheating, they could have marked cg_hudfiles CVAR_CHEAT.
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However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.
Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.
it's impossible to add a permanent radar to the human hud without circumventing the game's cheat protections system, the HUD component for the radar is _always_ on the human hud, but it refuses to draw itself unless you are wearing a helmet. Simply adding crosshairs or rearranging the positions of your health/ammo/etc. doesn't require any cheating, and if the devs intended to make custom huds cheating, they could have marked cg_hudfiles CVAR_CHEAT.
While that is all true the typical company run server will not make this distinction nor care to. It will blanket rule the entire situation as it has every right to.
ie. I recall back on onecall in quake 2 gloom days, there were features that were completely safe that the servers operators company simply flatly denied putting on their hardware as it would break their ToS. Regardless of how 'safe' or 'secure' the addon was proved to be by the gaming community the company could not and would not even step close to the potential breaking of their ToS it may or may not cause, it was just safer from the company stand point to say 'no this is not allowed'. Hence my point with GameArena, they may share a similar mindset.
Regardless of how harmless the UI might be it dangerously edges one of their ToS rules so rather than get in a whole potential issue they made it a non issue by blanket banning modifications. Sucks, but from a company point of view they have every right to do so and expect their admins to follow those instructions.
Least this is what I've seen of seraphs and FisherPs posts. They're basic employees. They can attempt to get the higher ups to see the communitys point of view BUT there is no guarnatee they will. 99% of the time with a company run server the head administrators don't even play the game much less monitor these forums or investigate any of the addons. But they still have a greater level of influence on the rules than your game level admins do.
*Shrugs* I don't play or admin on GA so is none of my business to be honest but there seems to be alot of shit flinging over an explained issue, was just hoping to clarify it a bit from the peanut gallery ;)
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Darkrogue is correct. Nobody higher than us GameOps plays Tremulous, or if they do they haven't told me. OTOH, they're not going to change a Code of Conduct just for one game. If the dretch crosshair is going to become standard, you could always live without it in the mean time.
I never told you that you could use what you like. I told you that we would accept, but not believe, your statement about not using cheats. Our inability to detect it should not be confused with acceptance of it.
You actually tried to tell him what he could host on his own server? Seriously, are you that stupid?
I really really hope that you are aware of the irony in this. You're all telling GameArena what we can host on our server, or trying to. It is this simple: Things which we will not host on our server include cheaters.
The Code of Conduct (written for games in general, not free-source easily editable games like Tremulous in particular) considers use of any custom UI to be cheating.
It doesn't matter whether the GameOps agree.
That's all I have to say on this topic. I don't really care whether Chompers ragequits over being asked to admit that he doesn't own our servers.
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Once again you are wrong. I will tell you that your rules are stupid, I will not tell you that you cannot have stupid rules. This was in reference to you attempting to dictate whether or not someone can play on your server based on a file that is NOT HOSTED ON YOUR SERVER. Chompers could quite easily ask someone else to host his HUD and take it off of his server and he would be following the letter of your request. See how idiotic the request is? Incidentally, the chompers HUD is already available elsewhere, and has been for a VERY LONG TIME, since soon after he released it. Trying out different HUDs is just something that many of us playing tremulous do, and so the files end up spread far and wide. I guess we're all a bunch of cheaters to you /sarcasm
<sarcasm>
Since you are apparently unaware of this fact, files stored on servers not in your country are available to anyone with an Internet connection IN your country and vice versa. </sarcasm> Ok, NOW do you see how idiotic the request is? It is a simple strong arm tactic that has no affect except to allow some meaningless requirement supplied by some faceless (to us) bureaucrat to feel as if something is being accomplished.
If you want to discuss your dumb ass rules on a public forum that is well aware of the pointlessness of your argument then you can expect us to call you out on it.
You are absolutely within your right to do whatever the hell you want on your own server. We are absolutely within out right to respond in THIS forum in any way that the "owners" of this forum allows.
I have worked for corporations for decades now, they get idiotic rules when noone has the guts to call them out on it or to stand up to them.
My prediction, more australian servers are about to come into existence and become popular. I host a 12 slot server on my home connection. It's not hard and can make for some great matches. 1.5 down 768 up, you really don't need much.
Telling ME what I can do on your server? Ok, I can live with that. I may not like it, I'll probably bitch too. Telling me what I can do on MY server as a requirement of using your server? Piss Off.
One last thing, chompers didn't ragequit, you banned him.
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ie. I recall back on onecall in quake 2 gloom days, there were features that were completely safe that the servers operators company simply flatly denied putting on their hardware as it would break their ToS. Regardless of how 'safe' or 'secure' the addon was proved to be by the gaming community the company could not and would not even step close to the potential breaking of their ToS it may or may not cause, it was just safer from the company stand point to say 'no this is not allowed'. Hence my point with GameArena, they may share a similar mindset.
While your story is probably true, there is a big difference between a paranoid server administrator who doesn't want to run untrusted code on his server and multiplayer game rules that forbid a client side modification. In the first case, the worse that can happen is an owned box turning into a bot for a DDOS, an ftp server for warez or a point of entry to hack the remaining computers of the network. In the second case at best you have people cheating. Now considering that the client side HUD modification has been carefully crafted by ID software engineers to be safe and secure, there is no reason to be paranoid on that point. This is just one of those WTF you often find when uninformed people make ( stupid ) decisions.
This is how it should have been handled :
Admin: According to the GA rules, using custom HUDs is considered cheating
HUDUser: Ok, does anybody care about that?
Admin: No, nobody will bother with that
HUDUser: Ok then, thanks for the info
And that's how I'll handle that for now I guess: not bothering.
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I really really hope that you are aware of the irony in this. You're all telling GameArena what we can host on our server, or trying to. It is this simple: Things which we will not host on our server include cheaters.
The Code of Conduct (written for games in general, not free-source easily editable games like Tremulous in particular) considers use of any custom UI to be cheating.
That doesn't change the fact that a rule saying any non-default UI is cheating and bannable is just silly. Configuring things that weren't intended by the game designers to be configured is exploiting. Configuring things that were designed to be configured is not. You are saying that anyone who admits to turning off the clock (which is on by default) or turning on the lagometer (which is off by default) is a cheater who will be banned from GA. You are saying that admins there are not expected to judge the difference between an exploit and an explicitly designed feature. That is your right. It is my right to laugh at you and ignore your server, since I always run with lagometer on.
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I downloaded chompers ui and used it for the first time last night (on BeerGarden, not GA). I thought adv goon barbs in the center would be a gimmick, but I like them. The clock is better in its default location than at the bottom. And the crosshair, as everyone else has said, makes no difference in gameplay whatsoever. When aiming a barb it's useful, but when in constant motion it disappears -- the only thing my wetware can process is a general impression of the whole screen; details become imperceptible at wallwalking pitching dretch speed.
What a ridiculous thing to ban someone over.
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Has anyone seen this set of rules yet? Seraph and those other moronic admins have talked about it 10x but havent given a link yet.
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Has anyone seen this set of rules yet? Seraph and those other moronic admins have talked about it 10x but havent given a link yet.
Even if they did, I think most here would agree that this is only an issue because the admins there wish it to be. With the exception of changing the trem server/client source, there is no possible way for them to tell if he's using it anyways. Like flying accusations of aimbots, et cetera, alas, it always boils down into a witch hunt instead. They really could just drop the issue entirely and be 100% within the ToS (no matter what it states, barring a "witch hunt" clause), but I reckon it has more to do with something else...
Like self delusional ethos in lieu of playing abilities? Happens all the time with kick votes by admins on other servers not accustomed to "UnnamedPlayers" with highest kill counts.
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Kill GA already... No, this is not a call to players to DoS them, nor to actually Kill the owners / admin. Rather a call to the hoster to put an end to this charade.
Look at GA and see what admin-abuse is really about. There you have some low lives that were granted admin-privs and try now to hide behind ToS, but all we see is some BSer that try to declare something a cheat that will be in the next release / has been taken out of cheat-protection, on purpose.
Please Lord, let them be blessed with at least Brain v.02 so they don't shit in the kitchen!
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Pike down guys, the admins are reasonable (Well, perhaps rebound at times).
Here's the code, btw. http://www.gamearena.com.au/help/code.php
Their server, their rules. GTFO.
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Pike down guys, the admins are reasonable (Well, perhaps rebound at times).
Here's the code, btw. http://www.gamearena.com.au/help/code.php
Their server, their rules. GTFO.
their rules say nothing about custom huds being illegal.
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Thanks Kevlarman, I just got home from work, noticed this was still going, and was logging in to say that.
It's sad that they have now managed to turn some of the community into their own mindless drones, who turn up to present some old information as if it was newly discovered gospel handed down by the GA Admins. The very first email from Chompers said "Where is this rule" and they have never been able to show that it existed before they invented it - indeed, they still cannot point to it anywhere in their published TOS.
The best they can say is "We say it's a cheat, even though the community says it isn't, so there."
Anyway, more content to show how leet the Gamearena admins are.:
Chompers and I, for people who lack good memories, were part of the of group of people who pushed to get trembot loaded onto Game Arena servers in the first place. (Thread is still at http://www.gamearena.com.au/messageboards/feedback/thread.php/3580053 on the Gamearena board) . A major component of Trembot is, of course the GUID.
Indeed, the third sticky post on the Gamearena board is "Getting a GUID". - http://www.gamearena.com.au/messageboards/tremulous/index.php
So when Gamearena banned him, they of course banned by IP. Knowing full well that Chompers plays from my house, and in doing so they manage to ban me as a bonus, without having to go through all that troublesome thinking up of excuses.
I pointed out that I had been banned from their game and their response was "
My regret is that you EvilJimmy are also banned because of this issue, but this is regretably the case when two people who share the same internet connection and one of them is banned. It also goes as a warning to others groups that I know share the internet connection with others. If one of you gets banned it affects the others so behave.
In other words they magically forgot about the same functionality that they are pushing all their players to get, just to make sure they got rid of me also. I guess when power goes to your head it has to throw out all the Class in order to make room. And to top it off they throw that nice little "Behave or we ban you and your friends" comment.
In any case, I've gone back to playing Savage and Steam games due to the lack of any other suitable (Ping less then 150, Population greater then 8 game Version newer then 1.1) Tremulous servers in the continent of Australia. Good luck with your game, guys.
Just remember that in a few weeks they'll be looking for the next sacrificial person to keep the community in line, and they'll turn on you next.
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from what i see here, there is single, possibly heavy handed admin, who's superiors decided that (what the owners thought as) cheating was illegal.
Lets remember that private companies such as GA are not democracies, and if they were, they would likely not survive long.
All summed up, I would do the same thing in thier situation, if a bit less suddenly and heavily. Personally, i have never used a custom HUD, though the minute advantage they give you is negligible, and truly a matter of personal feel and preference. The bit of extra vision provided by minimalist HUDs really doesnt matter that much to me, as it will still take the same amount of time to put the either swing the crosshairs on the target (human) or run up and bite the opponent. As a dretch, what would crosshairs do anyway? you are still at foot level, and when jumping you have no horizontal movement capacity.
And if this is so important to you (GA), put it as part of the message in the loading screen, not in page 12 on the forums, or not at all.
Lastly, couldnt the player just go to one of the other 157 servers? True, i have my favorites also, but there are always more.
(no one really supported)
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Lets remember that private companies such as GA are not democracies, and if they were, they would likely not survive long.
Let's not forget that the GA-Admin-Abuser in question are not affiliated with the company, nor GA. They were simply players until they've been made admins.
Face it... The company does not care what it's beeing done, they just want the revenue...
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Lastly, couldnt the player just go to one of the other 157 servers? True, i have my favorites also, but there are always more.
(no one really supported)
OK, I'll repeat myself and clarify.
I did a list, got 127 servers. Here are a list of ping times under 150 ms (with 30k upload in background)
GA Trem 1 : 55 ( 16 player Server)
GA Trem 2 : 56 ( 16 player Server)
GA Trem 3 : 58 ( 16 player Server)
iinet Tremulous 1.1 : 58 (24 player server, old version)
Octothorn by Ouranga : 53 (4 player server)
TK Clan Server V1.1 : 53 (16 player server)
Every Other Server has a ping of 200 or more. We have this thing called the Speed of Light, it sort of stops us playing on servers in the US and Europe without getting yelled at for lagging.
And this is with one of the best consumer internet service available in Australia. My home line is a ADSL2 service that syncs at 23.200 / 948 due to my proximity to the exchange.
I know we won't be allowed to play on the GA servers again, which means playing Tremulous online is limited to Lan parties. All because of a few people who won't admit they are completely, totally, provably and categorically wrong.
Oh well, just woke up, off to play some Sourcefort
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It's sad that they have now managed to turn some of the community into their own mindless drones, who turn up to present some old information as if it was newly discovered gospel handed down by the GA Admins. The very first email from Chompers said "Where is this rule" and they have never been able to show that it existed before they invented it - indeed, they still cannot point to it anywhere in their published TOS.
I != mindless drone. I think what they did was unfair, and I'm actually running my own modification of Chompers, which doesn't have a cursor.
Yes, rebound can be very impulsive and judgemental. Some people are, Gamearena(Bigpond Corp) hired him to be such on their servers. As I said, if he's interpreting the rules that way, it's up to him to enforce them that way.
I seriously don't think generalizing and badmouthing all of the GameArena admins helps at all; as cpseraph and FisherP have consistantly proven to be friendly, approachable and non-judgemental.
Whilst I think this is unfair, I will however prefer to play on GameArena as it's the lowest ping server I have access to.
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As I said, if he's interpreting the rules that way, it's up to him to enforce them that way.
He _IS_ interpreting the rules in that way, with out having the slightest clue that exactly _this_ modification was taken out of cheat-protection.
And HE declares it to be a cheat. If he were the server owner, I'd stand by his side, but as he is only the executive-branch of the server he is out of line to take the interpretation in his own hands.
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And to ban people who are the main reason you are running a tremulous server for something like this is just poor taste, if not a downright smack in the face to their own tremulous players.
GA will continue to be the place to go as long as people keep going there. Only the Australian Trem community can change that.
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8. Falsely accuse other players of cheating for the purpose of discrediting an innocent player.
Action we may take:
First two times: warnings to immediately cease the prohibited behaviour.
Third time: 2 week ban from GameArena.
Any further breaches may result in a permanent ban from GameArena.
Whoops. Better go ban yourselves.
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I think this is a sad, sad situation. :cry:
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So if I take a felt tipped marker and make a black dot in the middle of my screen, am I cheating? Because in circumspect that is modifying the HUD and since your rules have no concept of 'nescessary and proper' they must be followed to the word (even if you, apparently, have to add them).
Then again you could just learn the concept of 'looking the other way', it's quite simple really; when you are supposed to enforce a rule you don't like just look 90 degrees to your left (or right if you want to), you can practice ifyou need to. What are your bosses going to do? Keep chat logs for a game they don't even play? And if they do give a flying fuck about an issue like this then they have way too much time.
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So if I take a felt tipped marker and make a black dot in the middle of my screen, am I cheating? Because in circumspect that is modifying the HUD and since your rules have no concept of 'nescessary and proper' they must be followed to the word (even if you, apparently, have to add them).
Then again you could just learn the concept of 'looking the other way', it's quite simple really; when you are supposed to enforce a rule you don't like just look 90 degrees to your left (or right if you want to), you can practice ifyou need to. What are your bosses going to do? Keep chat logs for a game they don't even play? And if they do give a flying fuck about an issue like this then they have way too much time.
If I flame in completely the wrong forum, on the wrong website, and then cut down a tree in a forest, does anyone hear me?
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lock!
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if rebounds gonna ban chompers for using the ui mod in ga he might aswell find out who those 12 ppl are that are using it and ban them aswell :-?
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Arch, was it you who mentioned the little anomaly that allows anyone running a custom HUD to get a pretty clear indication when someone else connects with a custom HUD? (I know it was one of you TK guys) Has anyone mentioned it to the GA GameOps yet?
I've pretty much kept it to myself, because obviously I don't trust the GA GameOps to do the right thing with that info. But Arch, as someone who still plays on GA, based on what you've seen of rebound since our chat on the TK server, do you think he is still using a custom HUD himself?
If he is, it would be worth it to me to post here in public how to detect it. Of course, if he stopped using one, then there is no reason for me to say anything.