Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: temple on January 28, 2007, 04:56:18 am
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I have tried to hold off and not bring it up. I know it has been debated over and over.
I don't think the Human team, by design, is poor. I think the human team should *in theory* be more powerful and flexible than the alien team. But in reality, the human team's players alway ruin the games and hopes to win.
People say that humans are easier to play than aliens but I disagree. Due to the design, aliens better suited for the overall game. They are good anti-structure or anti-personnel. Humans are more refined, more specific, but better at individual aspects of playing. The problem is that human weapons requires more know-how and skill than aliens over the course of a game.
My conclusions are simple:
Turrets create weaker, less skilled human players. Turrets are better at defending the base than a lot of the players. Many human players do not improve because turrets are effective at defending them and prolonging a game when one side should lose.
The weapon selection and variety confuse players. Players end up killing each other or more generally, people use weapons in the wrong situations or in the wrong way and it hurts the effectiveness of the team.
My suggestion is simplifying human weapons or the weapon selection some how. I know how people like to flame noobs and suggestions but I'm just speaking from frustraion of seeing the same issues every game.
Detailed feedback (added after thread started)
The whole coordination myth is what pisses me off and signifies the issue at hand.
Alien classes are a lot more straight forward. The hardest thing to learn is dretch'ing and pouncing without getting killed. Outside of that, there is no learning curve about swiping people. Bonus if you can swipe the head. That's the barebones of aliens.
Humans on the other hand have more nuances. The devil is in the details.[/size]
The lucifer cannon and the flamer are the most retarded weapons to use in defending the base. But there is no feedback or way to understand that without a lot of experience. A chaingun and even a 150 credit shotgun (both S1 weapons, might I add) is better at defending a base from goons or tyrants than a luci or a flamer. Its hard to learn that without knowing the underlying mechanics of the game. Its not obvious. For aliens, its is obvious that advanced goons and tyrants are better than basiliisks or maraders. And hell, its isn't that hard to play the S3 aliens, anyone can snipe or swipe. But compare that to using a lucifier cannon well or a Battlesuit/painsaw/grenade rush and you should be able to agree that humans require something more at the same stage as aliens.
Using the DPS values of a weapon makes a lot more sense in terms of attacking alien bases. The pulse laser is the best bang for you buck in killing alien bases due to its DPS AND the range AND the clip size. A painsaw or a flamer can dish out a lot of DPS (in raw numbers, so can the chaingun). But alien bases can have aerial structures that make those weapons useless. And the chaingun, despite its dps, has too much spread to be effective. The luci is definitely good at base attacks but the clip size, cost, and limited offensive use makes it relatively as good as a pulse laser. Its highly variable and it takes experience to choose the best weapon/armor combination in regards to credits. So, even when you know some of the mechanics of the game, its still not obvious in terms of weapon choices.
Take the human S1 weapons. The lasgun is IMO the most flexible weapon at S1 hands down. Damn near hitscan (if not hitscan), large clip, no reload, range, and good dps. A shotgun has the most bang for your buck at close range. The major reason why I prefer the lasgun is simply the clip size and range, which the shotgun is completely weak in comparison. The Massdriver is only good for camping and killing dretches, but in a long hallway, the basic rifle is nearly as effective in skilled hands (in fact, the rifle has more DPS than the massdriver). The MD is just faster at killing dretches. The chaingun has the best DPS against larger aliens than any weapon but the need for time in order to unleash the DPS causes it to be a high cost/high loss weapon against skilled aliens. For the money, a shotgun and a lasgun is just as good considering playing against skilled people and flexibility over a chaingun. And that's just S1.
Like I say, aliens aren't better at coordination and humans are worst in terms of players. Humans have more to coordinate. Aliens make the best use of their team due to their classes being easier to choose and use. Humans have a lot of potential in terms of weapons or armor but that advantage is easily wasted by less than experienced players.
My suggestion is simplify weapons. Such as combining some weapons as having an primary and alt fire like the lucifier instead of having an individual version of each. Like combine the rifle and the mass driver or the lucifer and the flame thrower. Maybe combine the shotgun with a grenade launcher. These are just examples to illustrate the idea.
Would those improvements make humans more powerful... hell yes. But at this point, only high skilled players would exploit the advantage of the change but they are the ones that already know how to win. Its the noobs that need the extra help so the games are closer and more competitive. Otherwise, its camp fests with 1 or 2 good human players carry the whole weight because people are getting owned and not realizing why. I'm not going into specifics because this isn't about that, its just about why humans suck so bad. I'm just pointing a possible solution.
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people like variety. i guess i am one of those people too.
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Simplifying human weapons? How?
They are already pretty simple.
I think what the humans (and Trem as a whole) lack is coordination and communication.
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The answer is that they usually lack the most important thing: clue. Making the human weapons any simpler than they're now won't make humans smarter, it'll just increase the level of stupidity in human team. :roll:
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I think its because as noted so many times before the "good" players tend to escape to the alien team...
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simplifying human weapons? Aren't they quite simple already? Only shoot and reload button.
Also in all your retardiness what the fuck do you think about "turrets being better at defending" ? ofc they are. When placed well these super accural thingies are quite imba.
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only reason humans end up sucking is because of "lack of skill"
this game is already completely balanced.
skill is the only balance issue here. and cant be balanced in itself.
:wink:
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Humans, individually, are weak, however, in numbers, they are a very formidable force. Humans lack the communication, coordination, and stategy required to work as a team. More teamwork = more human wins. Aliens, individually, are strong, and they are stronger in groups. Tremulous is a team vs team game, most of the time, humans dont play as a team and that is what cripples them and makes them weak. Oh, and were you suggesting that we remove turrets from the game? If we were to take out turrets, then we would most definitely have to remove acid tubes also, for balance reasons.
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Also in all your retardiness what the fuck do you think about "turrets being better at defending" ? ofc they are. When placed well these super accural thingies are quite imba.
True that... their hit % is 100%. the power of imbalance.
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Another reason the humans have a hard time is because almost all humans are afraid to lose their credits by attacking enemy base. If more people made use of the human stage 2 advantage humans would win more.
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On any good game on any server, if there are players who have played a long time together on the human team, versus a team of aliens that is equally skilled, the humans will always win, usually before s3. Humans are more powerful than aliens.
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On any good game on any server, if there are players who have played a long time together on the human team, versus a team of aliens that is equally skilled, the humans will always win, usually before s3. Humans are more powerful than aliens.
I said that.
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Humans aren't weak, it's the people who are playing them who are "weak", or better unskilled. i can kill dragoons and tyrants easily with chaingun and pulse rifle,ask anyone i played against and they'll tell you how easy i take em out. Most humans i see play aren't good with those weapons, and they can't strafe to avoid being hit. Also, most choose to use the luci, which i find to be a poor weapon for killing.
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Here is what i use for weapons on the human team, i hope it is useful for you.
Luci Cannon: Best used for taking out bases, not much use against anything larger than a goon.
Chaingun: Sucks for bases, but can mow down anything bigger than a granger.
Pulserifle: A mix between the luci and chaingun. More accurate, slower shots.
Flamer: Just for being an ass and killing dretches.
Grenade: Dont leave home without one of these
(m)Ass Driver: Useless after s1, unless you want to be a jacktard that bothers aliens, but never kills them. This is the campers gun of choice, because it allows you to project your vision out of the base, without leaving the base.
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I think its because as noted so many times before the "good" players tend to escape to the alien team...
This is quite true.
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Perhaps the weapon descriptions should be a little more noob-friendly.
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It isn't... Skill needed...
E V O
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On any good game on any server, if there are players who have played a long time together on the human team, versus a team of aliens that is equally skilled, the humans will always win, usually before s3. Humans are more powerful than aliens.
Didn't the alien team win a comparatively much bigger number of games during the treamleague?
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Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything.
the reason being the good players started as human, got bored of feeders and went alien. Which they became more comfortable using and less skilled as humans. The problem now is that the reverse is happening, thanks to all the brainless 'omg aliens = teh win' threads every noob and his dog want to play alien for extra kill points.
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Nothing is too broke in Tremulous if you ask me. Humans suffer more from lack of cooperation in that conflicting builders will make junk or worse....decon the reactor without cooperating/prebuilding "Oops I didn't think they'd attack that fast". Aliens still suffer it in suicide dretches feeding the enemy to S3 too fast.
The only thing bad about the weapons is the advanced ones aren't always clear-cut better, and they're too wacky/cartoony.
I'd prefer MORE customability to the human weapons like ammo types and mounted features. No reason to dumb the game down for every newcomer.
If anything, maybe a 'blueprint' 3Dvisualization/communication tool for the Human team to vote on a base layout? Or give 'naked' Humans more agility to help when running around away from their turrets? Like maybe trick wall-jumps/cartwheel flips/kung-fu to help dodge?
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The whole coordination myth is what pisses me off and signifies the issue at hand.
Alien classes are a lot more straight forward. The hardest thing to learn is dretch'ing and pouncing without getting killed. Outside of that, there is no learning curve about swiping people. Bonus if you can swipe the head. That's the barebones of aliens.
Humans on the other hand have more nuances. The devil is in the details.[/size]
The lucifer cannon and the flamer are the most retarded weapons to use in defending the base. But there is no feedback or way to understand that without a lot of experience. A chaingun and even a 150 credit shotgun (both S1 weapons, might I add) is better at defending a base from goons or tyrants than a luci or a flamer. Its hard to learn that without knowing the underlying mechanics of the game. Its not obvious. For aliens, its is obvious that advanced goons and tyrants are better than basiliisks or maraders. And hell, its isn't that hard to play the S3 aliens, anyone can snipe or swipe. But compare that to using a lucifier cannon well or a Battlesuit/painsaw/grenade rush and you should be able to agree that humans require something more at the same stage as aliens.
Using the DPS values of a weapon makes a lot more sense in terms of attacking alien bases. The pulse laser is the best bang for you buck in killing alien bases due to its DPS AND the range AND the clip size. A painsaw or a flamer can dish out a lot of DPS (in raw numbers, so can the chaingun). But alien bases can have aerial structures that make those weapons useless. And the chaingun, despite its dps, has too much spread to be effective. The luci is definitely good at base attacks but the clip size, cost, and limited offensive use makes it relatively as good as a pulse laser. Its highly variable and it takes experience to choose the best weapon/armor combination in regards to credits. So, even when you know some of the mechanics of the game, its still not obvious in terms of weapon choices.
Take the human S1 weapons. The lasgun is IMO the most flexible weapon at S1 hands down. Damn near hitscan (if not hitscan), large clip, no reload, range, and good dps. A shotgun has the most bang for your buck at close range. The major reason why I prefer the lasgun is simply the clip size and range, which the shotgun is completely weak in comparison. The Massdriver is only good for camping and killing dretches, but in a long hallway, the basic rifle is nearly as effective in skilled hands (in fact, the rifle has more DPS than the massdriver). The MD is just faster at killing dretches. The chaingun has the best DPS against larger aliens than any weapon but the need for time in order to unleash the DPS causes it to be a high cost/high loss weapon against skilled aliens. For the money, a shotgun and a lasgun is just as good considering playing against skilled people and flexibility over a chaingun. And that's just S1.
Like I say, aliens aren't better at coordination and humans are worst in terms of players. Humans have more to coordinate. Aliens make the best use of their team due to their classes being easier to choose and use. Humans have a lot of potential in terms of weapons or armor but that advantage is easily wasted by less than experienced players.
My suggestion is simplify weapons. Such as combining some weapons as having an primary and alt fire like the lucifier instead of having an individual version of each. Like combine the rifle and the mass driver or the lucifer and the flame thrower. Maybe combine the shotgun with a grenade launcher. These are just examples to illustrate the idea.
Would those improvements make humans more powerful... hell yes. But at this point, only high skilled players would exploit the advantage of the change but they are the ones that already know how to win. Its the noobs that need the extra help so the games are closer and more competitive. Otherwise, its camp fests with 1 or 2 good human players carry the whole weight because people are getting owned and not realizing why. I'm not going into specifics because this isn't about that, its just about why humans suck so bad. I'm just pointing a possible solution.
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Why players are better in alien ?
Human have to aim (too hard for many people)
Alien have to touch (more easy cose human aim as shit, so it's simple to reach them)
So what is the normal reflex ?
"Turret aim better than me, i stay behind them."
Where is the probleme with that ?
You can have turret EVER and ever and ever, just the sd could fixe this probleme, but, to wait sd to end a game or just to make some frag to have a stage ...
Solution ?
Change building systeme to a systeme where structures like turret need part of "kills" to buy it, so if you don't frag you can't rebuild turret ever !
exemple : turret still need 8 buildpoints AND 150 cred. So if you camp and dont frag, you can't buy again the turrets.
Normally what will happend ? If human know they can't have turret again and again and again, they will try to block alien in map and make enought kills to buy again some turret in case of aliens reach and destroy some turret. Or ... The will camp and they will not have the cred to build again the destroyed turrets. So players will have the choice : "with my money, will i buy a weapon or a turret ????"
Weapon are not to complicated, just players are nubs, they can't aim and use turret to to the job.
ps : Sry for my bad english.
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Now, this is too radical, even for me :) It would completly annihilate the ability for humans to move their base, not counting the fact that you cannot have a dedicated builder anymore since he would need money to build the base.
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i just said the "basic" system, it could be extend like :
decon a "non dead" turret = recap 150 cred
possibility to /share the builder or turret structure could be buy in armory and deployed by anyone, ect ...
but the base is turret need creds.
The fact where human can ever have turret must be changed.
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That won't change anything as humans will just take the safe money earning method and camp turrets, then go rebuild.
All it does is mean that humans can't make a fast base move, leaving them locked in a single area and letting them get wiped out more often, and guess what that will lead too...
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"]Why players are better in alien ?
Human have to aim (too hard for many people)
Alien have to touch (more easy cose human aim as shit, so it's simple to reach them)
So what is the normal reflex ?
"Turret aim better than me, i stay behind them."
Where is the probleme with that ?
You can have turret EVER and ever and ever, just the sd could fixe this probleme, but, to wait sd to end a game or just to make some frag to have a stage ...
Solution ?
Change building systeme to a systeme where structures like turret need part of "kills" to buy it, so if you don't frag you can't rebuild turret ever !
exemple : turret still need 8 buildpoints AND 150 cred. So if you camp and dont frag, you can't buy again the turrets.
Normally what will happend ? If human know they can't have turret again and again and again, they will try to block alien in map and make enought kills to buy again some turret in case of aliens reach and destroy some turret. Or ... The will camp and they will not have the cred to build again the destroyed turrets. So players will have the choice : "with my money, will i buy a weapon or a turret ????"
Weapon are not to complicated, just players are nubs, they can't aim and use turret to to the job.
ps : Sry for my bad english.
I agree totally about humans using turrets to do the fighting for them.
I disagree about the whole thing that humans can't aim. Humans can aim. The problem is that humans aren't good ENOUGH at aiming. If you see a dretch, you have less than 5 seconds to put 5 bullets in them (assuming using a basic rifle). That's hardly any learning curve. Good 'aiming' means being able to kill a dretch nearly on sight.
Learning how to run from dretches or aliens in general is just as important as aiming because evasion buys you more time to aim and kill them.
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Make the turrets have more spread if no DC is built.
That way, turrets won't be the guaranteed best shooters on a s1 human team.
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I agree with you about the nuances of the weapons---they aren't clear cut. The more money = better weapon for your play style isn't true for the Humans. Straightening that out would help. Your suggestion of combining weapons for less money would help.
I still disagree with you on coordination issues. I've seen many a game end short due to humans doing stupid stuff in terms of building/deconing. Coordination/communication doesn't have to be total but it protects against an experienced aggressive Alien force. But having a good base as humans isn't everything, and skilled players is the other part of winning.
I wonder if some kind of promotion system (strictly started fresh each game---no BF2 style permanent promotion) to limit some play functions to the players with the most kills, so 'noobs' can't suicide feed wouldn't help? "You need a leader to leave 10 steps from the turret, noob".
The whole coordination myth is what pisses me off and signifies the issue at hand.
Humans on the other hand have more nuances. The devil is in the details.[/size]
My suggestion is simplify weapons. Such as combining some weapons as having an primary and alt fire like the lucifier instead of having an individual version of each. Like combine the rifle and the mass driver or the lucifer and the flame thrower. Maybe combine the shotgun with a grenade launcher. These are just examples to illustrate the idea.
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I agree with Temple.
One thing I think should be changed is that when the Mass Driver is described, it should say "act as a sniper rifle"
and for Flame Thrower, it should say "Could attack the player" or something like that. That way, new players won't ask for a sniper rifle, and they won't panic when they get hit while using flamethrower.
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I agree with Temple.
One thing I think should be changed is that when the Mass Driver is described, it should say "act as a sniper rifle"
and for Flame Thrower, it should say "Could attack the player" or something like that. That way, new players won't ask for a sniper rifle, and they won't panic when they get hit while using flamethrower.
and luci would say "dont use near your base or teammates if you suck"
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Just a subliminal message during the first lunch : "if you have no enought brain to manage a simple game, go back on cs nap"
Don't joke, weapons are not too complcated, people are just brainless.
Personally i have no problem in humans and i think all people could do the same.
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OK Temple, I definatly think you have some really good ideas here. I cannot think of a solution to the problems I will outline, so i recommend that the game be left as is until an appropriate fix can be found.
Here are my thoughts:
- Your assesment of the weapons, especially the lucifer cannon and flamethrower. I would like to add however, that after testing some of these weapons on various servers myself that i am guessing they were designed to function in an FF off environment. The "lucy spam" tactic pops up over and over again, and when FF is off a flamer is the best anti dretch I know.
- Turrets pose a problem. They are too powerfull, but a human base cannot survive without them. The key difference in my mind between the bases of the two teams is upkeep. An alien base regenerates, and quite frankly doesnt need to much defense. Turrets are vital for defending against stage 2 and 3 aliens. Dragoons in stage one also can easily whipe out a base that has no turrets. The goon pounces in, kill in one hit, and jumps back out. Turrets offer some defense. Turrets are problematic in that a human base cannot be attacked by dretches or basalisks. Marauders have a really hard time at it.
- I would like to point out that it is the fact that tremulous is balanced that makes it such a popular game. Most balanced games have two teams, each with the same weapons and different skins and names on them. Tremulous offers two unique teams, and that must be preserved at all costs.
- I think that the problem needs to be addressed on the Alien team. The only innovative features on the alien team are the basalisk gas cloud (i almost never see this used), the marauder lightning (works, but to what extent?), and the goon's snipe. Each of these creatures also has the effective same basic attack. Sure the goon can pounce, the tyrant can charge, and the basalisk can hold, but the same basic mechanism of touch the target while clicking is throughout. I dont have any ideas of the top of my head, but give the alien team more diversity.
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Why players are better in alien ?
They're not?
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OK Temple, I definatly think you have some really good ideas here. I cannot think of a solution to the problems I will outline, so i recommend that the game be left as is until an appropriate fix can be found.
Here are my thoughts:
- Your assesment of the weapons, especially the lucifer cannon and flamethrower. I would like to add however, that after testing some of these weapons on various servers myself that i am guessing they were designed to function in an FF off environment. The "lucy spam" tactic pops up over and over again, and when FF is off a flamer is the best anti dretch I know.
- Turrets pose a problem. They are too powerfull, but a human base cannot survive without them. The key difference in my mind between the bases of the two teams is upkeep. An alien base regenerates, and quite frankly doesnt need to much defense. Turrets are vital for defending against stage 2 and 3 aliens. Dragoons in stage one also can easily whipe out a base that has no turrets. The goon pounces in, kill in one hit, and jumps back out. Turrets offer some defense. Turrets are problematic in that a human base cannot be attacked by dretches or basalisks. Marauders have a really hard time at it.
- I would like to point out that it is the fact that tremulous is balanced that makes it such a popular game. Most balanced games have two teams, each with the same weapons and different skins and names on them. Tremulous offers two unique teams, and that must be preserved at all costs.
- I think that the problem needs to be addressed on the Alien team. The only innovative features on the alien team are the basalisk gas cloud (i almost never see this used), the marauder lightning (works, but to what extent?), and the goon's snipe. Each of these creatures also has the effective same basic attack. Sure the goon can pounce, the tyrant can charge, and the basalisk can hold, but the same basic mechanism of touch the target while clicking is throughout. I dont have any ideas of the top of my head, but give the alien team more diversity.
Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 1000 words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.
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If there is no-one defending, a naked rifle can indeed take out the Alien base.
However, he will probably run out of ammo before he is done, forcing him to finish the job with a blaster.
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If there is no-one defending, a naked rifle can indeed take out the Alien base.
However, he will probably run out of ammo before he is done, forcing him to finish the job with a blaster.
He can do that easly provided there isn't more than 3 eggs to kill ;)
Once the eggs are all done for, aliens can have their OM it won't help them if they don't have a granger somewhere.
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bald?
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Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 376* words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.
*fixed
Here are my thoughts, addressing yours in order:
-Keep your vile comments in the CS forums
-Duh, so whats your problem?
-Yes, I have seen two riflemen take out an alien base, because their guns fire farther than an acid tube. This is a greater danger at the start of the game.
-Because humans are not just get close and click click click.
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Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 376* words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.
*fixed
-Because humans are not just get close and click click click.
+1
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I'm not in a clan, so I have yet to see a game between two teams that are honestly equal in skill.
In public server games, my feeling is that new players are attracted to the human team because the play mechanics are more familiar and the learning curve is easier. More skilled players tend to "graduate" to the aliens.
Unfortunately, this means that on average, the human team is composed of less skilled players. Less skill = stacked teams = aliens win.
I'm not dissing on newbies here; I'm just saying it's human nature to go with what you're familiar with. Most people who have played FPS games will play humans before they play aliens, because it's more familiar to them.
Honestly, I think Tremulous is an amazingly balanced game. Unless you want to UN-balance it in response to human nature, I think it's pretty good as-is.
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Unless you want to UN-balance it in response to human nature, I think it's pretty good as-is.
I'm thinking along the lines of unbalancing the Human team.
My whole point is if you take newbie#1 and put him on an alien team and a human team...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien. Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon. Take the same newbie and give him a battle suit and lucifier cannon and he isn't that helpful, regardless of the weapons.
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Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 376* words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.
*fixed
Here are my thoughts, addressing yours in order:
-Keep your vile comments in the CS forums
-Duh, so whats your problem?
-Yes, I have seen two riflemen take out an alien base, because their guns fire farther than an acid tube. This is a greater danger at the start of the game.
-Because humans are not just get close and click click click.
i will keep them here, tyvm
my problem is you point out luci and flamer as weapons that suck with ff on, when you probably just shouldnt use them if its on, and youre going to be fighting near your team/structures. its like using psaw against an adv mara
yes, and the two riflemen were much more skilled than the aliens
humans have to aim...aliens have to get close and click. thats not how you describe innovative. innovative is the different weapons/classes.
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Unless you want to UN-balance it in response to human nature, I think it's pretty good as-is.
I'm thinking along the lines of unbalancing the Human team.
My whole point is if you take newbie#1 and put him on an alien team and a human team...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien. Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon. Take the same newbie and give him a battle suit and lucifier cannon and he isn't that helpful, regardless of the weapons.
I'm sorry, but that's completely wrong.
The favorite attacking method of new alien players, as the dretch, is to run on the floor, in a straight line, directly at a human.
The adv dragoon and tyrant are tricky because you have to know how to attack and when to escape, but the new alien player can only afford one if he goes AFK and doesn't die for 8 or 10 minutes.
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I'm sorry, but that's completely wrong.
The favorite attacking method of new alien players, as the dretch, is to run on the floor, in a straight line, directly at a human.
The adv dragoon and tyrant are tricky because you have to know how to attack and when to escape, but the new alien player can only afford one if he goes AFK and doesn't die for 8 or 10 minutes.
and humans don't feed? The only saving grace of the human team are turrets (which I pointed out earlier) when it comes to having begineers. However, no matter what stage the humans are, feeding/camping humans still can't take out a base.
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The game being balanced for newbies is an entirely different thing from it being balanced for experienced players.
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-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
Once, it was me :D
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...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien. Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon. ...humans and he isnt so helpful.
I agree with kozak6, this is, for the most part, incorrect. if you take [pro]hummie and newbie#1 and put them on human team, against [pro]alien and newbie#2 on the alien team, the humans will win, so long as they have communication. As I said in a post regarding this topic (might've been a different thread though...) humans lack the coordination and communication necesary to win most games. Humans are much, much more powerful then aliens, in S2, humans can easily fight off S3 aliens, so long as they know what's coming to attack them and which way it's coming from. A chainsuit relies on a human with a helmet to survive to kill more then one tyrant, they have the protection of a battlesuit and the radar of a helmet. Working together, humans will win nearly all games. A chaingun and even a 150 credit shotgun (both S1 weapons, might I add) is better at defending a base from goons or tyrants than a luci or a flamer. Its hard to learn that without knowing the underlying mechanics of the game. Its not obvious. For aliens, its is obvious that advanced goons and tyrants are better than basiliisks or maraders. And hell, its isn't that hard to play the S3 aliens, anyone can snipe or swipe. But compare that to using a lucifier cannon well or a Battlesuit/painsaw/grenade rush and you should be able to agree that humans require something more at the same stage as aliens.
I was playing in FunZone, and an {mDc} clan member missed his first three barbs in sniping a turret, this proves that not everyone can snipe. Also, although the tyrant has an amazing forward range, a battlesuit can easily strafe around the tyrant with a chaingun and take him out, and this is even easier to do with an advanced goon. Regarding your statement about dregoons and tyrants "obviously" being better then marauders or basilisks, I have taken out more battlesuits with an advanced marauder then with a tyrant or goon, so no, the tyrant or goon is not better then a marauder. I do, however, agree that newbies will be confused for a moment about which weapon to choose when playing S3 humans, but that confusion quickly dissapears after they see a tyrant chaingunned by a chainsuit, or an army of dretches lucified by a luci+batt+larmor+helmet. Newbies quickly learn that "Incoming!" binds followed by a description of what aliens and from which directions they are coming from can save a base. However, no matter what stage the humans are, feeding/camping humans still can't take out a base.
Camping is a legitimate tactic when humans can take out the alien base, but need to get rid of the defenders. A camping human team can quikly run the aliens dry of evos and then launch a lucifer/flamer strike against the alien base only having to worry about dretches, so you see, camping humans can, indeed take out a base, they camp until there is no alien defence to worry about.
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Plague Bringer
I agree with kozak6, this is, for the most part, incorrect. if you take [pro]hummie and newbie#1 and put them on human team, against [pro]alien and newbie#2 on the alien team, the humans will win, so long as they have communication. As I said in a post regarding this topic (might've been a different thread though...) humans lack the coordination
and communication necesary to win most games. Humans are much, much more powerful then aliens, in S2, humans can easily fight off S3 aliens, so long as they know what's coming to attack them and which way it's coming from. A chainsuit relies on a human with a helmet to survive to kill more then one tyrant, they have the protection of a battlesuit and the radar of a helmet. Working together, humans will win nearly all games.
Take an different example. Feed a beginner credits for a BS/Luci combo and take him with you to the alien base in S3. Then take the same beginner and feed him 5 evos for a Tyrant and take him to the human base. Which team will the beginner be more helpful for? On humans, I doubt the beginner would even make it past the base door, if to the base at all.
I was playing in FunZone, and an {mDc} clan member missed his first three barbs in sniping a turret, this proves that not everyone can snipe. Also, although the tyrant has an amazing forward range, a battlesuit can easily strafe around the tyrant with a chaingun and take him out, and this is even easier to do with an advanced goon. Regarding your statement about dregoons and tyrants "obviously" being better then marauders or basilisks, I have taken out more battlesuits with an advanced marauder then with a tyrant or goon, so no, the tyrant or goon is not better then a marauder. I do, however, agree that newbies will be confused for a moment about which weapon to choose when playing S3 humans, but that confusion quickly dissapears after they see a tyrant chaingunned by a chainsuit, or an army of dretches lucified by a luci+batt+larmor+helmet. Newbies quickly learn that "Incoming!" binds followed by a description of what aliens and from which directions they are coming from can save a base. That being said, humans do greatly rely on communication to win games. and humans don't feed? The only saving grace of the human team are turrets (which I pointed out earlier) when it comes to having begineers.
I miss shots with advanced goon all the time. No cross hair and heavy gravity influence on shots. But give me or anyone enough time to compensate and you snipe anything in the base. Most of the time, people miss because they are trying to snipe less than obvious stuff, like an armory behind turrets, rather taking the easy shot at turrets.
A battle suit can not easily strafing around a tyrant. The only human player that can out spin me is Yahoo and that's not even 100%. Its lag, son.
You are complete lying asshole if you tell me that a marauder is better than a tyrant or an advanced goon.
The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons). After trying to crack a lot of bases, I see that goon are way more effective at it than marauders. Marauders are just good cause they are 2 evos.
Camping is a legitimate tactic when humans can take out the alien base, but need to get rid of the defenders. A camping human team can quikly run the aliens dry of evos and then launch a lucifer/flamer strike against the alien base only having to worry about dretches, so you see, camping humans can, indeed take out a base, they camp until there is no alien defence to worry about.
Its not that easy. If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Please keep on spouting myths because it just keeps people doing the same stupid shit. The only camping works is if the alien suicide every time (which isn't even necessary with advanced goons).
Humans need to coordinate but its harder to coordinate when the team has a very specific weapons that have to be used in specific ways and across different skill levels. I've done the coordination thing and its works only because the good people are the ones working together. In any game, if the good people work together, they win.
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I recently played on a server (don't remember the name) where they nerfed the aliens like crazy. It took half the map for a tyrant to charge, if someone just casually walked backward you couldn't hit them with a goon or tyrant, it took 6 hits with a tyrant to destroy a tesla, healing was at least halved, etc. It's pretty sad that some people blame the game for people sucking so much.
I was amazed at how much more powerful the aliens are if they use teamwork (alas, they still couldn't win).
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In public server games, my feeling is that new players are attracted to the human team because the play mechanics are more familiar and the learning curve is easier. More skilled players tend to "graduate" to the aliens.
And later return to humans after being bored of waiting behind corners.
Humans are much funnier to play once you learn the game mechanics. I can spend the whole game in a continuous attacking rush, while in aliens I'm forced to sit and wait half of the game. "Rambos" enjoy more at human team.
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Take an different example. Feed a beginner credits for a BS/Luci combo and take him with you to the alien base in S3. Then take the same beginner and feed him 5 evos for a Tyrant and take him to the human base. Which team will the beginner be more helpful for? On humans, I doubt the beginner would even make it past the base door, if to the base at all.
You assume a lot. Luci isn't a weapon which is learned to be used correctly at the start, if you gave him a chaingun he would live longer at the start. Besides the fact that í'd rather have him with a helmet pulse and batpack for support.
A newbie tyrant can easily block your escape on some maps and get you killed and you are forgetting that trem doesn't have bs+luci=tyrant. Trem isn't 1 vs 1.
Both teams become more powerful through teamwork, the human team way faster than the alien one.
I miss shots with advanced goon all the time. No cross hair and heavy gravity influence on shots. But give me or anyone enough time to compensate and you snipe anything in the base. Most of the time, people miss because they are trying to snipe less than obvious stuff, like an armory behind turrets, rather taking the easy shot at turrets.
The adv goon has a crosshair by default and straight shots would be overkill, download 1.0.2 and see how overpowered straight goon shots were. And it's obvious that while taking 1 turret out of 7 has little impact on anyone but the builder taking out that armory has the potential to disrupt their base operations a lot longer when you're a lone adv goon.
A battle suit can not easily strafing around a tyrant. The only human player that can out spin me is Yahoo and that's not even 100%. Its lag, son.
Not necessarily lag but it's true that it sure as hell is one of the hardest part to do. I can't with a bs, that's for sure.
You are complete lying asshole if you tell me that a marauder is better than a tyrant or an advanced goon.
You're completely denying the uses of the lower alien classes, the (adv) marauder has enough wrecking power and at times is even more efficient at taking out certain targets. It depends on the situation which you have taken totally out of the equation.
The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons). After trying to crack a lot of bases, I see that goon are way more effective at it than marauders. Marauders are just good cause they are 2 evos.
See above
Its not that easy. If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Please keep on spouting myths because it just keeps people doing the same stupid shit. The only camping works is if the alien suicide every time (which isn't even necessary with advanced goons).
Camping is a tactic, as a strategy you lose. But camping isn't only sitting on turrets, it's staying near your base. It can and will drain the aliens if you do it right, as is done by experienced players when they are at a disadvantage.
Humans need to coordinate but its harder to coordinate when the team has a very specific weapons that have to be used in specific ways and across different skill levels. I've done the coordination thing and its works only because the good people are the ones working together. In any game, if the good people work together, they win.
Completely true
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The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons).
Which weapon "isn't accurate"? Barring the chaingun, they all hit exactly where you point.
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The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons).
Which weapon "isn't accurate"? Barring the chaingun, they all hit exactly where you point.
Actually, some have a delay. Lasgun and Massdriver are the most accurate. Pulse laser, flamer, and luci has to travel, so they are harder to hit a marauder. Shotgun is actually good against close marauders but the spread makes it less than useful. Same for chaingun. Rifle is okay not damaging enough.
Pulse is a good example. I'd rather use a marauder than a goon if I see pulse flying around. But otherwise, goons > marauders, given a player is good at both.
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In public server games, my feeling is that new players are attracted to the human team because the play mechanics are more familiar and the learning curve is easier. More skilled players tend to "graduate" to the aliens.
And later return to humans after being bored of waiting behind corners.
I do agree with this, actually, but I left it out of my first post for simplicity. The graduation from newbie to experienced takes you from humans to aliens; the graduation from experienced to elite takes you from aliens back to humans. And the graduation from elite to l33t means you can pwn both sides. :)
But seriously...
In my experience, barring clan matches, ALL games contain a mixture of experienced players and newbies. I'm simplifying a little bit, of course. To simplify further, I'd say I tend to see only two basic distributions:
1. Stacked teams -- a significantly higher quantity of experienced players on one team. New or inexperienced players fill up the other team, plus one or two experienced players.
2. Even teams -- both teams have a small, equal number (1-4) of experienced or elite players, and the rest of the slots are filled by newer players.
In case 1 the outcome is almost always inevitable. In case 2, it seems to me, the deciding factor is sometimes the skill of the skilled players, sometimes the mistakes of the inexperienced players. Inexperienced players can feed, mess up the base, TK the base, block the retreat of fellow (skilled) aliens, etc. More importantly, inexperienced players often don't communicate with the more experienced players.
So, really the question isn't which team is more powerful when both are experienced. The question is, how do teams balance when there is a mix of experience and inexperience on both teams?
My whole point is if you take newbie#1 and put him on an alien team and a human team...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien. Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon. Take the same newbie and give him a battle suit and lucifier cannon and he isn't that helpful, regardless of the weapons.
if you take [pro]hummie and newbie#1 and put them on human team, against [pro]alien and newbie#2 on the alien team, the humans will win, so long as they have communication.
Take an different example. Feed a beginner credits for a BS/Luci combo and take him with you to the alien base in S3. Then take the same beginner and feed him 5 evos for a Tyrant and take him to the human base. Which team will the beginner be more helpful for? On humans, I doubt the beginner would even make it past the base door, if to the base at all.
The game being balanced for newbies is an entirely different thing from it being balanced for experienced players.
But the real point is, the game being balanced for a MIX is different from both, and a mix is what we usually see. The above quotes are too simple, because newbies don't always communicate and rarely get fed credits.
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Pah. How do you get true balance when one team is melee and the other is ranged?. Every map plays differently and every battlefield favours one team or the other. Imo the balance is good enough.
Camping is my main beef... The alien team needs a better "rambo" tactic for killing bases(some siege class that can't be 1 shot killed by camping humans). I don't mind fighting when one team has the upperhand it's challenging...However i do find sitting infront of a row of turrets while lucifer cannon blasts and pulserifle shots wizz past me to be a tad boring.
What do you do when the humans go campus maximus on you? The way i see it the problem is the turrets are carrying too much weight for the human team. Players with a 10th of the skill of the attacking players just sit there and fire off bullets like they are in iraq. Could we maybe disable turrets when enough humans are near them?.
In the event of human campage what do you do?
a) wait for sudden death(sometimes up to 1h-_-)
b) try to kill them(kamikaze run and reward their camping)
c) just hang around looking for the odd stragler, gather frags and bleed their credits(like most tyrants you see in public play).
d) try to organise a team of first timers into an effective strike force and most likely just end up doing option b.
e)change teams and decon their reactor.
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The whole coordination myth is what pisses me off and signifies the issue at hand.
Humans need to coordinate...
I think I've made my point.
On another note, PLEASE don't tell me that you're one of the noobs who think that human weapons and alien classes match up. eg. rifle=dretch, psaw=basi, shotty=mara, etc. Whoever said that the LuciBattlesuit us equally as good at taking out an alien base as a Tyrant is at taking out a human base? And why the HELL would a newbie be better at aliens then humans? You never did explain why you think that way. And do you really think that a newbie can succesfully snipe a turret with a rifle shooting at him?
You are complete lying asshole if you tell me that a marauder is better than a tyrant or an advanced goon.
Then I guess I am a complete lying asshole. And if you're saying that the tyrant and advanced goons are the best alien classes in the game, you are a completely arrogant asshole. It depends on player preference, sure, tyrants and (adv)goons have more health then marauders, that doesnt mean they're better. A marauder could own a battlesuit just as easily as a dragoon could, if not easier.
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99% of the ingame situations are best suited for a mix of Tyrant and Adv Goons ( + a few odd Adv Grangers ). Only in very very exceptional situations are aliens better of with any other form at stage 3, provided they do not lack Evo points.
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99% of the ingame situations are best suited for a mix of Tyrant and Adv Goons ( + a few odd Adv Grangers ). Only in very very exceptional situations are aliens better of with any other form at stage 3, provided they do not lack Evo points.
If i may amend that to 99% depends on the player's preferred class. Although tyrant is easiest to play as it doesn't mean it's the best. Just today there were some wonderful combos of (adv)basi+adv mara/goon action, hardly any tyrant in sight.
The fact remains that for cracking base defense you need either adv goons and/or tyrants in quantity or luck plus an appropriate class in quality. And it's way easier to gather the first then to get the second.
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I think I've made my point.
On another note, PLEASE don't tell me that you're one of the noobs who think that human weapons and alien classes match up. eg. rifle=dretch, psaw=basi, shotty=mara, etc. Whoever said that the LuciBattlesuit us equally as good at taking out an alien base as a Tyrant is at taking out a human base? And why the HELL would a newbie be better at aliens then humans? You never did explain why you think that way. And do you really think that a newbie can succesfully snipe a turret with a rifle shooting at him?
I didn't say that but the point is if you give a beginner the best of both teams, the beginner would be more effective on aliens.
Then I guess I am a complete lying asshole. And if you're saying that the tyrant and advanced goons are the best alien classes in the game, you are a completely arrogant asshole. It depends on player preference, sure, tyrants and (adv)goons have more health then marauders, that doesnt mean they're better. A marauder could own a battlesuit just as easily as a dragoon could, if not easier.
Arrogant? I think you are pretty arrogant to deny the truth to either 1) Brag 2) argue a non-point 3) lack skill with a goon.
A goon does more damage and has 2 good ways to do it. A goon has much better handling and speed than a marauder. I like marauders but they are cheaper than goons for a reason.
If i may amend that to 99% depends on the player's preferred class. Although tyrant is easiest to play as it doesn't mean it's the best. Just today there were some wonderful combos of (adv)basi+adv mara/goon action, hardly any tyrant in sight.
The fact remains that for cracking base defense you need either adv goons and/or tyrants in quantity or luck plus an appropriate class in quality. And it's way easier to gather the first then to get the second.
Tyrants and advanced goons do everything faster than any previous class. A Tyrant can (note can, not always will) take out a whole base if they have enough room to work and kill off defenders first. Advanced goons, if they hit with as many barbs as possible, can snipe a base down to the ground before you know it. I've had that happen and it is very frustrating.
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The battlesuit's lack of radar makes looking which way the Mara bounced pretty hard.
I generally find they ignore my Mara, keep going towards my base, and I start gnawing on their back.
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I didn't say that but the point is if you give a beginner the best of both teams, the beginner would be more effective on aliens.
but this brings up another argument, which IS the best of both teams?
A goon does more damage and has 2 good ways to do it. A goon has much better handling and speed than a marauder. I like marauders but they are cheaper than goons for a reason.
Marauders have much better speed then a dragoon, also, a marauder does a helluva lot of damage, it can take out a naked human in one zap (if you sustain it). Marauders are a much more flexable class then the Dragoon, they have the power of the goon, the speed of a dretch, and the size of a (adv)basi, what else can you ask for?
Tyrants and advanced gons do everything faster than any previous class. A Tyrant can (note can, not always will) take out a whole base if they have enough room to work and kill off defenders first. Advanced goons, if they hit with as many barbs as possible, can snipe a base down to the ground before you know it. I've had that happen and it is very frustrating.
and a skilled (adv) marauder can take on 3 lucisuits and walk away with 3 evos. I'd like to see a tyrant or (adv) goon do that.
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If i may amend that to 99% depends on the player's preferred class. Although tyrant is easiest to play as it doesn't mean it's the best. Just today there were some wonderful combos of (adv)basi+adv mara/goon action, hardly any tyrant in sight.
The fact remains that for cracking base defense you need either adv goons and/or tyrants in quantity or luck plus an appropriate class in quality. And it's way easier to gather the first then to get the second.
Tyrants and advanced goons do everything faster than any previous class. A Tyrant adv mara can (note can, not always will) take out a whole base if they have enough room to work and kill off defenders first. Advanced goons adv mara, if they hit with as many barbs as possible if they find a sweet spot with little turret fire, can snipe a base down to the ground before you know it take out reactor. I've had that happen and it is very frustrating.
You're including too many ifs. The first one, kill of defenders, that's a big if. The second if, barbs, takes a lot of time if you're alone and it's a human team that deserves to lose if you can do it alone.
There is no definite proof one is better than the other. Basis have taken out reactors and dcs in bases other alien classes couldn't penetrate. Mara's have passed defenses and raped spawns and armories where the tyrants were still struggling at the doors. Adv goons have sniped dcs in amazing ways. If anything I think the tyrants is the alien class with least potential going for it other than big hitter, big health.
The fact remains, there are few times when a single alien will rape a base, and it happens mostly because most of the human team is in all actually out of commision, either due to spawn saturation or being too far away from base.
You just have seen so many of these large rushes i'm afraid that you have lost sight of the value of those little ones.
Also most expensive alien != most expensive human. That scale is wrong in trem. Never ever use it again.
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Marauders have much better speed then a dragoon, also, a marauder does a helluva lot of damage, it can take out a naked human in one zap (if you sustain it). Marauders are a much more flexable class then the Dragoon, they have the power of the goon, the speed of a dretch, and the size of a (adv)basi, what else can you ask for?
Wrong, a Mara zap will NOT kill a human, even if he is unarmored. A Mara zap does 80 points of damage max. Of course, it requires to play on a patched server. Anyway, any kind of armor will completly nerf the mara zap damage.
and a skilled (adv) marauder can take on 3 lucisuits and walk away with 3 evos. I'd like to see a tyrant or (adv) goon do that.
It seems like you are playing a different game than the rest of us. A game where Dragoons do not have their wonderful pounce ability to flee and where mara users manage to kill lucisuits when they have a hard enouth time getting close to me and not getting blasted by my luci the instant they get in range on my larmor+helmet+batterypack+luci.
Go on a server with better players please.
PS : killing 3 lucisuit by yourself means you get 9 evo in the operation. I HARDLY doubt you can really pull that out since any player good enouth to get a lucisuit will not fall for such tricks.
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Marauders have much better speed then a dragoon, also, a marauder does a helluva lot of damage, it can take out a naked human in one zap (if you sustain it). Marauders are a much more flexable class then the Dragoon, they have the power of the goon, the speed of a dretch, and the size of a (adv)basi, what else can you ask for?
Zap only does 80 damage. Its lag that lets you kill unarmed humans. This has been discussed in detail on the forums.
Marauders deal around 40 damage (80 to the head) and goons deal 50-100 based on location. Goons are more powerful.
Pounce >>> wall jump any day. Oh man have I learned that. You either haven't perfected it or haven't pushed a goon to the limit. Bloodydemon and Yahoo could show you some stuff. After experimentation, I'd take a goon over a marauder now that I have seen what they can.
and a skilled (adv) marauder can take on 3 lucisuits and walk away with 3 evos. I'd like to see a tyrant or (adv) goon do that.
All you have to do is wait for them to jump at you and pop em. Its satisfying. With an advanced goon or tyrant, the raw damage means only need to land 3-4 hits. Tops. Maybe marauders pwn ATCS but on any other map, goons and tyrants get it done quicker.
And for the record, I think Tremulous is balanced. I think the human is just harder to play, maybe too hard for beginners to be effective. And Turrets don't help beginners learn to play better.
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Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?
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You're including too many ifs. The first one, kill of defenders, that's a big if. The second if, barbs, takes a lot of time if you're alone and it's a human team that deserves to lose if you can do it alone.
There is no definite proof one is better than the other. Basis have taken out reactors and dcs in bases other alien classes couldn't penetrate. Mara's have passed defenses and raped spawns and armories where the tyrants were still struggling at the doors. Adv goons have sniped dcs in amazing ways. If anything I think the tyrants is the alien class with least potential going for it other than big hitter, big health.
The fact remains, there are few times when a single alien will rape a base, and it happens mostly because most of the human team is in all actually out of commision, either due to spawn saturation or being too far away from base.
You just have seen so many of these large rushes i'm afraid that you have lost sight of the value of those little ones.
Also most expensive alien != most expensive human. That scale is wrong in trem. Never ever use it again.
I agree. I've recently got a lot better with marauders and basilisks and I know what you are talking about. Its because maras are slightly smaller than goons, so once you get in a base, you can jump out of turret range and sit on a reactor without getting shot.
Its hard to describe thing and hard to duplicate. However, a goon jump in a base and do similar magic, albeit less directly to a reactor (due to ceilings on some maps, if the builder places the reactor under low ceilings). Really, you just have to vault over the initial turrets, kill the rear turrets, then hit the reactor. If the base is too crammed, neither class can sit on a reactor without getting shot to pieces.
The only definite reason why maras and basilisks are just more effective is the evo cause. You can blow more of them on jumping into a base than you can with goons.
But honestly, a tyrant moving really fast can do some good stuff. I like to jump turrets when possible and just ruin base. Tyrants, like goons, have to played very aggressively. Just running up to the base and swiping works but given a highly skilled player, you can do as much or more with tyrant than a low level alien. The only drawback is that tyrants have huge hitboxes that make defending easier. But a good trample, jump, and any edge will get around the ground limit of a tyrant.
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Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?
yeah i noticed :cry: and it took me like a long_ish time to type up my 250 word rant on human camping
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Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?
There are other people here?
@temple - I think we've all almost reached mutual agreement here. Temple has admited marauders can be usefull, I'm currently training with a dragoon (I can land the snipes, I can even whip 'em straight up and have them come down on an armoury like artillery fire :D it's the pounces that get me :-? ). Marauder's strength in destroying bases comes with a few flamers or lucis camping the human base, and friendly fire to buildables on, a marauder can jump around in there and get the humans to kill the reactor themselves 8)
@Stof - I still enjoy taking 20 damage from 4 hummies at the same time :D . I, myself, cannot take on 3 lucisuits at the same time with a Marauder, but it's too easy with a dretch when the halls are crowded with humans on ATCS and FF is on :wink: .
@temple...again - Marauders own Beyond Derelict, they're the biggest class that can fit in the vents, so do boosted dretches :). I find that newbies quickly figure out what each weapon is good for, newbs quickly learn that the lucifer cannon is good for anything smaller then a marauder and is a powerful adversary against anything above a mara (if used correctly). They also learn that chainguns arent for dretches, but tyrants and goons (and maras if you want to risk loosing your stamina chasing it around), the MD is good all around if you have the skill, the flamethrower is for mas killing dretches, basilisks, and those retarted goons who dont use pounce to run away. Oh, naked rifles can take out adv goons easily (in my experience) just sprint right at them and strafe around them so they dont know where to pounce, just keep pumpin lead in them andd they'll be finished before they run ouround the corner (of course you'll be eaten by dretches on the way back to th armour :-?)
Wow, EMOTE SPAM FTW, sorry if that's alot to read :oops:
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Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?
lol who cares about them
@temple -> you stole my maps name
@survivor -> how will you survive against a tyrant with just rifle
@stof -> STOP USELESS SPAM
@plague bringer -> bring it on I am teh van
@techhead -> cheer up
@janev -> you could summarize it as "camping ftl"
@dretch -> stop biting my ass I am typing and fyi it is a devmap
@vcxzet -> STFU
@noobs -> RTFM
@@ -> @
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@vcxzet -> STOP USELESS SPAM :P
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Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?
I don't respond to posts with which I agree mostly, that would be cluttering this topic. I simply go after those that I can't agree with and try to explain why I don't agree with it. Also most people simply avoid my points in any discussion. I wonder why.
Stof's one of the few people here who will take on any discussion if he feels someone's wrong and is also able to admit his own faults. Mucho respecto to stof.
Also notice I never said the tyrant or adv goon are useless, I'm just saying that the other classes also have their uses albeit less noticed by most players.
@survivor -> how will you survive against a tyrant with just rifle
Where did I say 1 rifle will win from a tyrant?
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Where did I say 1 rifle will win from a tyrant?
isnt survivor your name ? :P
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ph34r the dancing hamster
(http://xs412.xs.to/xs412/07062/hamster2.JPG) (http://xs.to)
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Ah in that way. Oh well, I'll explain.
@uncreation
First I make totally sure i have the rifle loaded up, I lift it up and aim it towards the tyrant. Now if you will notice one thing it is that I am not yet firing. This is because there is not yet a need to. The tyrant is charging up it's trample and going straight for me now. At the last second, I finish my cup of coffee and sidestep so that the tyrant falls into the deep.
@niveus
I make sure I shot 174 bullets. 'Why?' you may ask. Well that is because 7 is a lucky number, and as you will notice I now have 6 bullets left. This simply means I pressed the trigger a bit too long. No worries. Because of the fact that the tyrants is now very near to me I still have enough time to take the trash out. Because of this the tyrant totally misses me and gets shot to pieces by the turret.
@nexus6
Ah yes, the rifle obviously is no good at nexus because it does 5 damage per bullet; the blaster though does a whopping 9 damage per shot. So I whip out the blaster. While I take aim I remember I forgot to duck and as I do so the tyrant's slash misses me. I fire the blaster and the tyrant dies. Well, he shouldn't have messed with that blaster
@atcs
I don't play atcs
@arachnid
While I put out my blanket on top of the crates I see a tyrant approaching. What the tyrant didn't see was the dretch approaching behind him and blocking him, resulting in him getting shot by the rifle.
@karith2
The tyrant silently approaches the human base having learned from it's previous mistakes. As he rounds the corner he brings a human with a rifle to the next plane of existence. Sadly, that human wasn't me. He retreats back around the corner and waits. As he becomes bored he rushes past the base and up the stairs and heads back to his base. He encounters me but sadly my blastershot misses him hits the last remaining egg and I die. Well, you can't win em all
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Just a side note to the discussion. It should also be counted how easy is the given alien to kill. Goons are by far the easiest to kill. Maras and Tyrants are similarly hard to get killed. But Maras aren't any dangerous while you attack them cause they can't deal you damage and dodge at the same time. Tyrants on the other side can deal you damage very fast while you attack them.
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But Maras aren't any dangerous while you attack them cause they can't deal you damage and dodge at the same time.
Jump and head bite, circle strafe and chomp, there are many ways that a Mara can deal damage while dodging.
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Take a nibble every time you fly over the human's head.
2 bites of just hair.
5 bites of a stylish helmet.
7 bites of clunky metal.
(All numbers assume full health and too noobish for medpacks)
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Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).
The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.
And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.
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But Maras aren't any dangerous while you attack them cause they can't deal you damage and dodge at the same time.
Jump and head bite, circle strafe and chomp, there are many ways that a Mara can deal damage while dodging.
I talk in generic fashion. A Mara can, ofc, but it's very hard for him and easy for the human to dodge him.
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"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).
The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.
And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.
You always have something arrogant to say.
The problem is not aiming, idiot. I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.
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"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).
The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.
And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.
You always have something arrogant to say.
The problem is not aiming, idiot. I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.
everything is about aiming
IT IS A FPS; AIMING IS 90% OF IT
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"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).
The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.
And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.
You always have something arrogant to say.
The problem is not aiming, idiot. I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.
everything is about aiming
IT IS A FPS; AIMING IS 90% OF IT
Tremulous is nothing like most deathmatch games.
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"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).
The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.
And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.
You always have something arrogant to say.
The problem is not aiming, idiot. I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.
everything is about aiming
IT IS A FPS; AIMING IS 90% OF IT
Tremulous is nothing like most deathmatch games.
that is why it is not 100% :wink:
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that is why it is not 100% :wink:
Tyrants and goons are hard to miss.
Alien structures can't move.
Its not about aiming.
The only thing you have to aim at are marauders and dretches.
So, no, there is a whole hell of a lot more to tremulous than shooting.
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that is why it is not 100% :wink:
Tyrants and goons are hard to miss.
Alien structures can't move.
Its not about aiming.
The only thing you have to aim at are marauders and dretches.
So, no, there is a whole hell of a lot more to tremulous than shooting.
Aliens will have a hard time getting goons and tyrants if they face only humans with very good aiming ability while they are still playing dretches ;)
Once aliens pass to the bigger forms, aiming matters less than movement and placement and .... CASH. Without cash, you cannot buy the tools to kill bigger aliens, and if you can't kill bigger aliens to get the cash to kill bigger aliens, then you have to kill the smaller aliens :D
See, 90% ofhuman play in trem is about aiming.
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In alien too, if you cant aim the head of a human wich have good evades you will not have many chance to rules the game.
The same : I see many goon who think they can kill me cose i m naked and alone, but they have a shit aim and with my evades i have the time to fire 2 clip (and reloading between of course) before they hit me. They lose their goon cose they have no aim ... And where they are dretch ... just lol.
I have a good aim, i know it, i played many fps before, and i know my aim level, i seen many better aimers than me and on many game. But it's not normal that 3/5 of the game i play, some players call me aimbotter. It's not normal they can't imagine it's possible to aim with good (far away from perfect) accuracy without use a cheat. But if they dont believe it's possible, they will not try and they will not improve their aim skill. And you will not fix that with changing weapon ability. Or maybe you want a game for lessskill players.
There is nothing to change about weapons, but many thing to changes about players themself ...
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Why the human team "always loses" is because all the n00bz0rs think it's easier.
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they re not so bad:P.http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0255zg5.jpg
The quality is bad cuz my screens of it didnt saved so my friend did them
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they re not so bad:P.http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0255zg5.jpg
The quality is bad cuz my screens of it didnt saved so my friend did them
The fact that you alone have more kills then the entire opposing team combined, as do the other 2 top players, and yet the alien team still lives tells me that you think killcount matters more than winning the game.
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yeah...it doesnt matter how many kills you have, if you get the OM, the last egg, or the last alien, that's what counts, that's what wins games. This isnt Halo, a team doesnt with the game with X amount of kills.
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Actually, Tremulous is very balanced. No one has an advantage. If one player is better than another, he will win every time, regardless of team. I have played many, many times and the better players always, always win. If both teams are very evenly matched, winning will be by confidence and chance alone.
I must admit that humans are built very well for base camping though, which gives neither team much of an edge.
Overall Tremulous is very well balanced and put together. Hail the programmers who thought out their idea before putting it together. And with things like tjw's admin mod, it is very easy to keep the game fun and even.
___________________
Floodbud. Owner.
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Floodbud. Owner of necromantic skills
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When a guy revives an old thread he's a thread necro.
But if he posts a new thread about the same topic you guys 'kill' him for 'not using the search button'.
:sigh:
and now you will all call me a whiner. Whatever.
IMHO the game is not really balanced. It's fair in a sense that each team has certain advantage when they reach certain stages.
Human S1 weaker than Alien S1
Human S2 stronger than Alien S2 ( Pulser + flamer team can own any alien )
Human S3 weaker than Alien S3 ( Tyrants kill non BS human too easily. But actually the balance is very small tipping to human alien side in this stage, since they have the luci. )
I suggest that luci radius should decrease with distance ( as has been suggested before I believe ) or the big ball luci should be removed altogether, leaving the quick luci bursts in-game. Tyrants should need 3 strikes against an armor + helmet human (I am not sure really how many it takes now.. 2 ? ). Dretch ground headbite will be removed in 1.2.0 so I guess that will make S1 a bit more balanced. Oh yes pounce damage is too much I think. Maybe decrese it to 90 dmg per attack so that it doesn't kill instantly.
edited.. damned '<' character is buggy
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Ground headbites are just silly. You expect me to believe this thing that doesn't go past my knees can hit my head without jumping? Of course, it could just as easily be a crotchbite, which would be just as deadly as a headbite.
It all depends on who is playing S3. Generally, a Tyrant>Bsuit. But a skilled player who knows how to dance and dodge the tyrants attacks can often gun that thing down before it gets its 3rd hit in.
Unarmored humans die in one hit.
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Remember that trem needs to be balanced for teamgames. Quite frankly I'm not convinced that nerfing the goon or tyrant is the way to go. Early on it felt like the aliens had all the advantages stacked in their favour(due to lack of teamplay) but now I'm beginning to think a team of humans working together will obliterate any alien team that stands against them. That will imo be dubbly true in 1.2 with the removal of the ground headbite. The dretch will need some serious hp/speed boosting if it's going to stand any chance at all vs competent players.
@sleekslacker "md vs goon", both have instagib vs basic offensive class.
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The dretch headbite is not that major of an issue. Only extremely skilled players can really pull it off; they'll find some other way to get kills.
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The dretch headbite is not that major of an issue. Only extremely skilled players can really pull it off; they'll find some other way to get kills.
I agree but anyone can do it.
Tremulous isn't a game where you play one team forever. I play aliens and ground headbite all the time. I play humans and kill aliens before they headbite me all the time.
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The dretch headbite is not that major of an issue. Only extremely skilled players can really pull it off; they'll find some other way to get kills.
I'm 'extremely skilled' then. cool !
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Dretches are already under powered with unlag. There is no need to remove ground headbite just because people don't want to play with a bit more sound and don't want to pay attention to the game.
Hell with unlag, wall to wall jumping is pretty much useless with unlag, I get gunned down in 3 seconds top by even noobs.
The high damage from the dretch is taken back by its hp. The only thing that should, personally, be nerfed, is goon should be moved to s2. This would force people to actually learn more then pounce chomp pounce pounce chomp. Maybe, just maybe, we'll see more people learning how to play with lisks and maras, which trem seriously lacks right now. Well, I supose bloody and anger are the most prominent reason everyon uses goon now a day.
Groudn headshot isin't too bad anyway, so far, whats the most annoying thing is teh goon easy kill rate and ceiling headshots. Ceilling headbites, are, personally, much worse then ground headbites.
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The high damage from the dretch is taken back by its hp. The only thing that should, personally, be nerfed, is goon should be moved to s2. This would force people to actually learn more then pounce chomp pounce pounce chomp. Maybe, just maybe, we'll see more people learning how to play with lisks and maras, which trem seriously lacks right now. Well, I supose bloody and anger are the most prominent reason everyone uses goon now a day.
That's silly. Fixing humans doesn't require nerfing aliens.
Putting goons at s2 is just silly. Good players with goons exploit weak humans players. Take 2 decent humans with anything other than a rifle and they can chase off or kill any goon.
Most people never seen Bloody or Anger play and I only played with them occasionally when I first started. If you stay in your base, they will burn their evos trying to rush and you can size them up a lot better. It isn't the goon or the goon user, its the begineers they are pitted against. Which that problem could be solved using my suggestions about weapons instead of nerfing goons.
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Good people with goons can still rape expert humans if they're s1. By nerfing goons to s2, you'll force more diversity into most alien players, that just dretch until goon then rape humans.
Most people say that goons are useless at human s2, but I've found that:
goon vs s1
Goon can plow through 5 people until he gets taken down, sometimes more, sometimes less. Usually at least 1is taken down. That is taken you fight in a relatively small space where all the humans can't shoot the goon at once.
Goon vs s2
Goon can fight off 1 human before he usually dies, that is, if the fight is alone. Some circomstences happen that the goon can take down 2 human, but thats usually a matter of lack of skill from humans or an over powering level of skill from the goon. That being said. Goons are of equal ppower to an helmeted human with a shotgun, and even pulse, though the pulse seems to appear to be slightly more powerful then the goon.
This would tend to make it seems as though the goon is more of a stage 2 class, since its on par with the power of an helmeted human.
Your idea with the human weapons just confuses me, and I'm sure it would confuse the newer player even more. Right now the weapons are pretty straight forward and easy to handle.
What they're try8ing to deal with, is the newer idiot members that don't tend to READ the manual.
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What they're try8ing to deal with, is the newer idiot members that don't tend to READ the manual.
Have you read the manual? Seriously?
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Kozak6: In the 7 months I've played Tremulous I've only encountered four players that have asked how to get a new weapon. That suggests to me that a healthy portion of new players take the necessary five minutes to read the manual.
Re: the TremLeague matches: I don't think there was more than one game where the human team managed a win; but you'll have to confirm that with Smokey.
I wholeheartedly agree with Temple's initial stament about the weapons and new players in general.
I don't believe that turrets breed weak players. I believe weak players are weak players due to inexperience, and I don't see how getting dretch'd every 5 seconds would improve a player's confidence level and skill. Of course some players are just defective and beyond all hope; that's why we have "/callvote kick".
I have personally taken an S1 Dragoon and led my feeder-team (where litterally everyone had 0 kills except two players, who had KS'd one kill each) to victory, even though the humans were S3 inside 5 minutes. I spent the next 20 minutes picking off battlesuits and cursing my team. The only saving grace was that there was a granger who was kind enough to heed my advice and spammed eggs and was patien enough to rebuild the base numerous times.
Yes, I died a lot. The human players weren't dumb, they were established. Many I had played with before on previous occassions so they knew my moves. But for every time I died, I was able to get away two times previous and heal. I always had evo to use and I fought those humans to a stand-still, and then was finally able to destroy their base at SD. And I'm really not that hot of a player. I've just been around the block a few times.
Now for a serious player, I watched BodyOrgan hold off an ENTIRE TEAM of established human players with his Tyrant while -his- team fed. He had 50+ kills, and the next on the alien killboard had like 6 after some 20 minutes of gameplay. He drove those humans to camp half the time, and only died when he was breaking into a group of 5 or 6 bsuits (all the humans were bsuits, that's how much the aliens were feeding). That match ended up being a draw since the humans had about four players who camped the base with chainguns and whutnot while the rest were always attacking.
Why was this able to happen? Because the humans were always bringing LCannon and flamers; not nearly enough shotguns, chainguns, lasguns and pulserifles to deal with the bigger stuff. I desperately think the human weapons need to be adjusted with, at the minimum, a brief explaination of the weapon's intent and which enemies it is considered most effective against. The LCannon should also come with a freaking huge warning label.
*CAUTION: DO NOT USE THIS DEVICE AROUND HUMAN STRUCTURES; MISSUSE OF THIS DEVICE MAY CAUSE YOU TO BE BANNED FROM THE SERVER!*
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Kozak6: In the 7 months I've played Tremulous I've only encountered four players that have asked how to get a new weapon. That suggests to me that a healthy portion of new players take the necessary five minutes to read the manual.
I suppose that would be a better point if the manual actually told you how to get a better weapon.
All it currently says is:
As credits are earned, humans may sell their old upgrades and purchase new ones at an Armoury structure.
That's it. It needs to specifically point out that you need to sell the rifle.
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yes. It confused me at first too. Most games have you autosell. You might also want to point out that it has a 100% conversation rate, so you arnt losing money when you sell stuff back. Which is good for meee!
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Good people with goons can still rape expert humans if they're s1
That good player may not get a goon vs expert riflemen 8).
Goon can fight off 1 human before he usually dies, that is, if the fight is alone.
Please don't make balance suggestions based on 1v1 fights :(
Putting goons at s2 is just silly
+1
ake 2 decent humans with anything other than a rifle and they can chase off or kill any goon.
Not any goon.
The only thing that should, personally, be nerfed, is goon should be moved to s2.
Think of what it would do to s1 balance... Atm there are only a handful of player who can use marauder effectively vs clustered humans and if you add to that skill on the human team you will see that humans win every game :roll:
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Think of what it would do to s1 balance... Atm there are only a handful of player who can use marauder effectively vs clustered humans and if you add to that skill on the human team you will see that humans win every game :roll:
Of course, who would bother to train in the mara usage when you can take a goon and own any stage 1 human easily for one more evo point :)
Move the goon to s2 and you'll see a LOT more skill in mara and basi on the servers after some time.
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Yeh. Move goon to s2, since humans don't get anything good at S1 anyway. Without helmets, its far too easy to lose over 100 creds worth of equipment without getting a single kill first. I never dare to use anything but a shotgun, for fear of the headbite robbing me of my nice chainfun.
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Of course, who would bother to train in the mara usage when you can take a goon and own any stage 1 human easily for one more evo point :)
Move the goon to s2 and you'll see a LOT more skill in mara and basi on the servers after some time.
Maybe... but imho if you take away the goon you take away the aliens ability to take the humans on head on is s1. Basi well that is almost useless against 2 decent humans :P Marauder well in the hands of the few select it is devastating.... In the hands of the rest of us it is 2 evo points down the drain :cry:. *shrugs* It might be worth a try to see how it works out...My guess is that it would make humans > aliens in s1.
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Aliens already have practicaly zero chance of taking on a camping human base unless they have Tyrants and Adv Goons. Moving the Goon to stage 2 wouldn't change that too much :)
But I agree that it probably isn't the best solution. And anyway, we still have to see how it'll turn out in Trem 1.2.0
Anyway, one possible solution would be to give the humans a stage 1 light helmet that doesn't give radar and which doesn't protect as much as the real thing. Say, it could give 50% damage protection for example. It would be very cheap though, along the lines of 30 credits at best.
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How nice that everyone is deciding what the devs spend their time coding :)
Perhaps you all could play on TJW's server, the one where
"they nerfed the aliens like crazy" and where modifications are made to help the game, instead of coming in here with
words words words
You could actually contribute by playing on a dev's server and helping to test changes to gameplay. Not test on a per match basis really, but overall. Help add to the stats that actually determine if the game is more balanced or not, not these anecdotal "I once".
Of course, bitching about the game in forums is more fun I guess.
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I have played there tuple :)
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I have played there tuple :)
So have I. Honestly though, I need to play there more. Best server methinks. Good admins, good atmosphere, challenging. I need to start spending more time there.
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I would play on tjw server when he'll stop beeing foolish and host his server where it really matters : somewhere in europe ;)
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Last I heard from tjw and kev, ground headbite won't be gone in 1.2. (And is present on tjw's server) I don't know where the rumors start up, but I tend to trust what the devs say rather than random people on the forums.
In order to remove ground headbite, you would need to drastically reduce the range of dretch's attack.
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Kozak: Before playing a game, I usually read the manual as well as most guides I can find on forums around the subject. This includes all the guides found on this forum(Not counting the mapping guide >.>)
janev:
1v1 is the best way to find the power to power ratio between 2 units/class. Of course 2-3 shotguns can take out a goon, but then you're saying that a goon is 2 to 3 times stronger then 1 shotgun, thus brings in the balance issues. Fightign 1v1, a chainsuit can win vs most rant, and a rant can win vs most chainsuits, those are pretty equal. So are, as I stated, goons and anyone with s2 weaponry.
I've seen existantial risk take down a group of 4 hummies, most armed with shotguns, with more then half his hp left. If we move goon to s2, like it should, then that means people will take more time into learning how to handle the other aliens, like they should. Right now they're pretty useless, since getting a goon then raping is usually easier and faster. At the beginning, yes, humans would be back in shape and maybe win more then 1/2 the games, but after a while, you'll see less camping from humans, and more skills from the aliens.
Tuple: I stoped playing on tjw's server much since he released unlag. I've only been on sparingly to check a few things out, and I've given him my thought on most of what he changed. unlag makes dretches and lisk useless if there is any clear line of sight between the alien and human and most of the time, high pinging humans shoot you half down the other corridor, which is annoying. Further more, it seems to make all the high pingers flucker to the said unlagged server, which is even more annoying.
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1v1 is the best way to find the power to power ratio between 2 units/class. Of course 2-3 shotguns can take out a goon, but then you're saying that a goon is 2 to 3 times stronger then 1 shotgun, thus brings in the balance issues. Fightign 1v1, a chainsuit can win vs most rant, and a rant can win vs most chainsuits, those are pretty equal. So are, as I stated, goons and anyone with s2 weaponry.
Well you have to take into account that the human team is ranged... So 1v1 balance is not the same thing as 5v5 balance or 8v8 balance :)
I've seen existantial risk take down a group of 4 hummies, most armed with shotguns, with more then half his hp left.
I've taken out 2 tyrants and an adv goon with saw and walked away with over 50% hp left... Does that mean tyrants should be boosted? :P
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Mantra: you do realize that unlagged is in SVN and so will be a standard part of 1.2, right? Time to get used to it.
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I'm aware unlag willo be in default for trem 1.2, and I find it sad :(
Now noobs will never learn what lag means and what most of us, whove been playing for a while, learned by ourselves with hours and hours on end of practice. Leading was a skill, now it is no more :(
I've taken out 2 tyrants and an adv goon with saw and walked away with over 50% hp left... Does that mean tyrants should be boosted?
We've all had strokes of good luck. I doubt you can pull that off everyday. On the other hand, I've seen risk own groups multiple times in a row.
By the way, unlag+500 ping+saw=OVERPOWERED!
Well, with or without unlag, its overpowered :P
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janev:
1v1 is the best way to find the power to power ratio between 2 units/class. Of course 2-3 shotguns can take out a goon, but then you're saying that a goon is 2 to 3 times stronger then 1 shotgun, thus brings in the balance issues. Fightign 1v1, a chainsuit can win vs most rant, and a rant can win vs most chainsuits, those are pretty equal. So are, as I stated, goons and anyone with s2 weaponry.
That's complete bullshit. A shotgun cost 150 credits, which is less that the credit reward (bounty)for killing a dretch. The bounty for a dragoon is 500 credits. I consider 1 shotgun vs 1 dragoon to be balanced.
Looking at weapon costs and bounties, a dragoon is worth requiring 3 shotguns. Its 3 kills for a dretch to be a goon and and 3 kills for the humans to kill the dragoon. Sounds fair.
I knew someone would use the '1vs1' should matter argument. Are supposed to balance tyrants against naked riflemen too?
Sidenote: Tyrants are worth 800 credits, so they should be balanced around Chaingun/Battlesuit, imo. Which tyrants aren't because they can shit out far more DPS than a chaingun.
I've seen existential risk take down a group of 4 hummies,
That's just bullshit too. 4 humans with shotties can theoretically insta-gib dragoon in one volley. It only takes 2 volleys for 2 shotguns to kill a dragoon. That situation sounds like lag, an ambush, or really really bad players.
I've seen risk and he isn't that good anyway.
Move goons to S2 and humans will probably hit S2 before aliens nearly every time. Shit, might as well just give humans S2 at the start instead of moving goons.
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I must say although I'm not a very good player, I have killed 3 humans with the goon. Goons need few attacks to finish off a non-BS player. In that game I killed the first one by pouncing him and the 2nd one by chomping. I ran back with 80 hp, with the single human following me to finish me off. Round the corner, I stopped and turned back around, pounced (but missed) and chomped him dead. I ran back happily to base with 100 hp.
Just a short story of how a goon can own a number of people at once. Kids, when you see a goon and you don't have a battlesuit, run back as soon as possible. Or camp.
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I've seen existential risk take down a group of 4 hummies,
That's just bullshit too. 4 humans with shotties can theoretically insta-gib dragoon in one volley. It only takes 2 volleys for 2 shotguns to kill a dragoon.
No, that's rather easy. Ambush, headchomp one human before any of them even had the time to shot once and you already are reduced to 3 humans vs 1 goon in close contact. The rest follows.
And before you say that an ambush isn't fair, I'd like to know how humans are supposed to avoid ambushes against aliens with alien radar without camping behind their turrets.
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I've seen existential risk take down a group of 4 hummies,
That's just bullshit too. 4 humans with shotties can theoretically insta-gib dragoon in one volley. It only takes 2 volleys for 2 shotguns to kill a dragoon.
No, that's rather easy. Ambush, headchomp one human before any of them even had the time to shot once and you already are reduced to 3 humans vs 1 goon in close contact. The rest follows.
And before you say that an ambush isn't fair, I'd like to know how humans are supposed to avoid ambushes against aliens with alien radar without camping behind their turrets.
How do you get that close to get an instant headchop? Goon teleport?
Like I said, it takes 2 shotguns 2 volleys to kill a goon outright. 4, 3, 2 shotguns are still very likely to kill or seriously injury the goon. I'm sure there are camping situations were a goon can 'come out of no where' but realistically, anything can happen. The goon could be behind the humans or the humans could be behind the goon. Either way, you can't judge balance based around theoretical ambush situations. But you can look at the actual DPS values and costs of weapons/classes.
The only time goons can 'rape' is when people DON'T get shotguns.
Really, goons are the workhorse of the alien team. Goons have to carry aliens to S2 AND S3. That's why their power is justified. They have to last 2 stages. Marauders and basilisks are good but I consider them economy classes (cheap) versus as versitile as dragoon. Honestly, if basilisks and marauders were better, I could agree with you, but I've already explained why goons > maras in any situation. Maras are just cheaper, so they better for kamikaze or evo farming than goons.
When humans hit S2, the whole balance of power changes. Many dragoon 'killers' get ran over. The real problem with goons is just in S1, goons can rape idiot humans with no light armor and no skills. But you are trying to nerf or change a class that is basically broken in 1 situation and missing the bigger picture. Look at the forest, not the trees.
Putting goons in S2 wouldn't change S2 for aliens, it would make going from S1 to S2 a hell of lot harder for aliens. Geting S3 for aliens wouldn't be any easier but going from S1-S3 would drastically harder. Over the course of a full game, humans would hit S2 a lot easier and once at S2, humans would go toward S3 at full speed. That change is an outright advantage for humans beyond anything.
Like I said, if humans had better skills (hard to do) or better weapons (easier to do), aliens in general won't be so dominant. Goons are only good because people fear them. Nerfing aliens won't improve human skills, it just forces the aliens to get better. Buff humans takes nothing from aliens but allows humans to survive long enough to learn skills.
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*drops shotgun into the armory*
Oops. Perhaps I should... buy it back? How the heck do all those guns fit in there anyway?
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We've all had strokes of good luck. I doubt you can pull that off everyday. On the other hand, I've seen risk own groups multiple times in a row.
That's just it mantra... You can't base balance on "This player can do this/this one game this player did that so we need to introduce a handicap"...
I've killed 50+ humans in 5 minutes with a goon and dominated a whole 12 player alien team by myself when playing humans... That doesn't make me 1337 it just makes my opponents crap.
The best way to balance the game would be for all the players to grow some cohjones and instead of camping FIGHT.
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Yes, goons ARE better then anything in the game. Goons are VERY fast, they have high hp, high damage, especially for the level where they are. No s1 hummies as any chances against a semi good goon, and if it wasn't for the feeding dretches by that goon, then the goon would, by himself, dominate a team of 6-10 hummies without much trouble, and hit s3 before humans even got enough credits for a shotgun. How many games as it been so far that I've won with 50+ kills and 1-2 death, while my enemies only hit s2 because of the feeding dretches and idiots on my team, and yet I still won. Furthermore, about 5/8 of the games humans won while I was alien, they won because of my feeding teammates.
I have a screeny of a game, where I had 10 kills in 1 min, against s3 humans. Goons are the most versatile alien, as well as the fastest, beside their evolved form.
How do you get that close to get an instant headchop? Goon teleport?
This prooves that you're a brainless moron, if you don't know that goons can pounce, then you shouldn't be posting in this thread.
As for shotguns beating goons, from my 8 months of playing, I've found out that chainguns are much more annoying to kill then shotguns. Especially once humans hit s2. (Mostly caused by the heavy lag chaingun brings around)
Putting goons s2 would actually make aliens going s2 worthwhile. Since right now, no one plays anything but goons, no one gains any skills with maras and lisks, making their adv counterparts useless. The only reason for aliens going s2 is adv granger, which can dish out a base and spam eggs like no tomorow in a small time, and is only useful once humans hit s2. If humans never get s2, no reason for even needing them anyway.
So basically, the only reason NOT to put goon s2, is that you think aliens would become useless without the said units during s1. That just means you can't kill without anything but the said goon. Which means you think any other alien unit is worthless. So you don't want to learn how to use them.
By moving goons to s2, you'd fix many problems.
Simply put, by putting goons s2, you fix these:
-Less humans will camp, since goons are the primary reason humans camp. Getting one hit killed tends to make you want to stick to your base
-Aliens will finally learn some skills beside just using goon
-Going s2 will finally mean something to alien, since it means they finally can one hit kill helmet-less humans
Making humans weapon stronger would most likely tip human power even more, making them nearly invincible. Think about it, if you make shotgun stronger, so as to make killing goons easier, you also make all other alien until easier to kill, effectivelly weakening lisk and maras. Unit that you already think useless, same for most people. Then this would make even more people see them as useless.
Now I bring back from the grave the idea I told TJW back a few months ago, before unlag was released.
-Set back goons to s2
-Give both goons a 50 hp increase
This would make gooning vs s2 a little easier and worthwhile and would make sure s3 goons could actually withstand a fully charged lucy shot.(Any other weapon can easilly kill it after it anyway, just makes them a little more useful other then for sniping)
With this, there is no need to make anything stronger, you're just setting back a unit by one level and increasing its hp by a small amount.
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Humans tend to stage up first.
Putting goons at S2 would greatly shift balance in favor of the human team.
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Shotgunners are in my experience the most dangerous weapon you can meet a human with, along with pulse rifles and chainguns.
Seriously, if the chaingun makes you lag (O.o) it's not the problem, but your shitty computer or connection.
And good humans usually do not get surprised at all by goons.
(unless i'm playing the goon, heeeh.)
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No, that's rather easy. Ambush, headchomp one human before any of them even had the time to shot once and you already are reduced to 3 humans vs 1 goon in close contact. The rest follows.
And before you say that an ambush isn't fair, I'd like to know how humans are supposed to avoid ambushes against aliens with alien radar without camping behind their turrets.
How do you get that close to get an instant headchop? Goon teleport?[/quote]
Ambush I've said. Or are you saying humans should never try to attack the alien base during stage 1? As soon as a human team goes out of its base to attack the aliens, each time they pass a corner they might get ambushed.
Like I said, it takes 2 shotguns 2 volleys to kill a goon outright. 4, 3, 2 shotguns are still very likely to kill or seriously injury the goon. I'm sure there are camping situations were a goon can 'come out of no where' but realistically, anything can happen. The goon could be behind the humans or the humans could be behind the goon. Either way, you can't judge balance based around theoretical ambush situations. But you can look at the actual DPS values and costs of weapons/classes.
There is NOTHING theorical about ambush situations in Trem. They happen all the time when humans attack the aliens. Also, I'm a huge proponent of DPS study, but you have to admit that when a goon decides to attack a team of 4 humans, there is 0 chance the 4 of them will be in situation where they can all attack the goon at the same time. When you attack such formation, you attack from the flank and you do NOT charge in the middle. You attack after a corner when only some of the humans came in LOS with you, you attack from the sides where half the humans would kill their friend before killing you etc...
The only time goons can 'rape' is when people DON'T get shotguns.
I find the situation where 4 humans with shootguns and larmor ambushed by a goon killing the goon but losing two humans in the process disturbing. You cannot call that a victory by a long shot. Humans just lost half their fighting force, two humans lost their equipment ( 220 credits ), goon got 2 points in the process. Such stacked odds ( 4vs1 with equivalent tech and skill ) should NOT have ended in that way, no matter how unfavorable the situation was for the humans.
Really, goons are the workhorse of the alien team. Goons have to carry aliens to S2 AND S3.
(snip...)
Yeah, basicaly you are saying that all alien forms other than (Adv)Goon and Tyrant are nearly useless. By that mesure, we could nerf or even completly remove anything between dretch and goon with barely any impact on the alien team capacities.
Like I said, if humans had better skills (hard to do) or better weapons (easier to do), aliens in general won't be so dominant. Goons are only good because people fear them. Nerfing aliens won't improve human skills, it just forces the aliens to get better. Buff humans takes nothing from aliens but allows humans to survive long enough to learn skills.
Let me tell you that even you you placed all human weapons at stage 1, I would still continue to use the stage 1 weapons only. The real problem with humans currently isn't the weapon power by far. It's the survivability of the humans themselves that needs improving.
Also on a side note, I'll say again that I agree with you that moving the goon to stage 2 without any other change is probably a bad idea. I just think it has a lot of potential. Maybe buff the basi ( already implemented in the next version it seems ) and the mara at the same time.
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with equal skill, if alien take advantage and up some goons, it will be hard for human to attack efficiently, 4 human (with weapon) could be gangbanged by 2-3 goons very fast without casualty in aliens. And, goons are not too crazy to rush a base where there is some good aimers.
Mara and basi are too less-used in s1 and btw, they rox when they are good played, but why a players should use a basi or a mara if he could use a "flying panzer" with 200 hp and instant kill by headchomp(head pounce) ?
My idea is to try a little mod where goon is blocked until alien s2. Normally, aliens will be less "rambos" and human will earn more security and will get out their base more easy.
And, the first team whowill reach the s2 will really take a advantage.
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Agreed... If there are as many goons as humans you are pretty much fucked... The thing is it's your own stupid fault if you let them get that many goons at the same time(or if you are stupid enough to put share on).
If you really want a goon nerf disable pouncing and chomping at the same time, delay between pounces, up the evo cost of goons or lower their hp a little in s1... Someone mentioned a lesser s1 helmet without radar. That could also work.
I just can't see any real reason to move goons to s2.... If you can't handle the dretches aliens get bigger badder bugs to play with.. Just like humans get armour and bigger boomsticks. I don't think you can reasonably say that s2 goon= s2 human atm :x
@ eye pouncing doesn't do locational damage it's the same if you pounce someones little toe or their head.
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I'm just going to leave the goon debate with the comment 'Goons aren't the problem'. I'll file it in the 'Tremulous myths' section of my mental encyclopedia.
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The purpose of this thread is not to debate the balance of the game mechanics, but in-part to deal with the issue of why new players are so ignorant in their selection of weaponry. And then how these poor decisions in weaponry have a negative impact on the performance of the team as a whole.
I believe that if the in-game description included the list of aliens that the weapon is most effective against, new players would be better able to support their team and not be such a heavy burden.
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They can fit all that stuff inside the Armory because they utilize a technology similar to telenodes.
Buy something at the Armory and it is an instant mail-order from the nearest munitions factory.
However, the two-way exchange requires that they are powered from both ends in order to operate.
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I think if there was a tremmy demo, it'd be nice. The ideal thing would be aliens with crude AI, just enough to effectively mimic human MOVEMENT, but they wouldn't attack. They would just run around the simple flat map. Then humans could practice with each gun, aim at moving targets, etc.
Could do a reverse thing with aliens, featuring ground troopers, randomly moving jettroopers, and bsuits.
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I can easily say an s2 goon = s2 human. Pounce + 2 chomps takes about, what, 2-3 seconds? Thats a dead helmeted human right there.
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2-3 seconds? I dunno. Generally my battles 1v1 against goons go like this
1. I run past the corner just enough to get a shot off.
2. Goon lunges, and misses. I fire again in the spare second.
3. Goon tries to turn and re-aim, I fire again.
4. Goon finally manages to get in a proper pounce, but just then I hear that "Oh my god i'm DYING" noise
5. Goon runs for it.
6. I chase, and a dretch gets me from behind.
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I can easily say an s2 goon = s2 human. Pounce + 2 chomps takes about, what, 2-3 seconds? Thats a dead helmeted human right there.
You're forgetting that unless a human has a blaster or conkit he's probably going to be hitting the goon that entire 2-3 seconds. If he has a pulse or a shotty one of you one is gonna be dead, and since humans moreoften then not travel in groups, that =dead goon
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I can easily say an s2 goon = s2 human. Pounce + 2 chomps takes about, what, 2-3 seconds? Thats a dead helmeted human right there.
You're forgetting that unless a human has a blaster or conkit he's probably going to be hitting the goon that entire 2-3 seconds. If he has a pulse or a shotty one of you one is gonna be dead, and since humans moreoften then not travel in groups, that =dead goon
Sorry but shotgun isn't powerful enouth to kill a goon in 2-3 seconds. Ok, it can be done in exactly 3 seconds from the first shot to the last one but it requires you to know perfectly where and when the goon is coming for that. Also, you'd better not attack before the goon is in close contact or else the shotgun spread will greatly reduce the damage you've done.
Pulse might do it but it still takes more than 2 seconds for that. And you'd better not miss any shot. This somewhat requires the goon to pounce you head on though and once again for you to know perfectly where and when it'll come.
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Well in 1v1 s2 goon can manage 50/50... but groups of s2 humans own groups of s2 aliens.