Tremulous Forum
Media => Map Releases => Topic started by: Paradox on February 04, 2007, 02:49:36 am
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This one has been unreleased so far, because it is buggy as sin, but here goes. Its called gloom_b2
http://www.mooload.com/new/file.php?file=files/040207/1170557080/map-gloom_b2.pk3
Dunno much about the map, except its votable on sst as of now. Ask xiane about it, and if he tells me to take it down, this thread wont exist anymore.
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Essentially gloom_b2 is much like gloom_b1 only isntead of leaked, this one is good and enclosed. SAdly to do this I needed to put chaulk brushes under the natural terrain and this is kinda glitchy at the moment. Structures built on mesh objects (ie the modelled crates on tremor) tend to screw up the drawing of the object, the hitbox is where it's suppose to be but the model itself drops into the mesh. Such happens here, sadly until this graphical error is fixed there's not much I can do about it short of spending months modelling the floor by hand and phong shading the lot of it (I lack daspirids patience for THAT particular technique). So for now it's just gonna be live with the glitchyness but enjoy the fact that with no leaks the fps should be better than gloom_b1 :)
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...isn't this a released map?
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No. alot of people call jex's map 'gloom' when in fact it's gloom2. They're all more or less ports from the q2 mod gloom of which there are in fact NINE maps all sharing the file name gloom#.
Gloom - Infested Caverns
Gloom1b - Deadstar
Gloom2 - Never really had a map name
Gloom3 - Infested Pumpstation
Gloom5 - Crisis at Nova Base
Gloom6 - Infested Mines
Gloom7 - Streetfight
And a couple of others :)
But to summerize things gloomy for trem:
gloom2beta2 = Jexs map based on q2 glooms gloom2se
gloom3t = my map, port of Infested pump station
gloom_b1 and Gloom_b2 = my betas of the Infested Caverns map.
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Your ports of Gloom maps are abominations. Look at Gloom2beta2 to see how it's done.
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Sorry lava not all of us have Jexs skill :) But we do what we can.
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Sorry lava not all of us have Jexs skill :) But we do what we can.
Then keep it to yourself, nobody is waiting for cheap, ugly ports of classic maps. If you are going to recreate a Gloom map, do it grand and beautiful, not crappy and uglier than the original. That is just insulting the original map and its creator.
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As stated, I lack the architectural skills that Jex has. However since no one was getting off their arses to make these ports I took the initative and did'em myself. Now they're not pretty by any means but then again when you're being chased by a tyrant do you honestly give a flaming rats ass that every brush has a beveled edge? oooo pretty.... *GANK*
:P
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I'd prefer it if people could keep their flames to themselves. Nobody is forced to play a map they dislike.
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lava no1 is holding you back from making a better port of the map. if you dont want to play it you dont have to, but atleast try to add a little of constructiveness to your flames
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Now they're not pretty by any means but then again when you're being chased by a tyrant do you honestly give a flaming rats ass that every brush has a beveled edge? oooo pretty.... *GANK*
That perfectly describes your mapping work. I'll not bug you anymore, since you don't seem to care about the fact that you release pure junk.
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Course I don't seem to care LAva, look through your posts. Notice anything lacking in them? Oh yeah there it is, anything constructive. Despite when I flame peoples work I'm always making a point, there's always at least on constructive peice of advice to improve the work that I was either told of or found out for myself.
Your posts just flame. As they always do. So yes I don't seem to care. Like I advise new mappers myself, there's always going to be those that hate your work. Some, the ones you should listen to, will point out things you could improve upon. The rest will just say it sucks (usually cause it's not up to snuff with others who have release 20x what you have and have portfolios of work for hopes of gaining an id software job - never mind that you might just be a hobbyist doing it for fun), and these ones don't let'em get you down. Wanna know why? Cause most of them can't do better themselves. And the ones that CAN, won't. Those ones are just elitests and nothing but their own ass kissing ever pleases them.
As for which category YOU fall in Lava, I'll let you figure it out yourself. For now have a nice life or go play in rush hour traffic. Either works. :)
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Despite when I flame peoples work I'm always making a point
Your maps make the point for me. I'm not good in pointing out the obvious.
Your posts just flame.
Have you seen the trash you release? The pure insulting you do at the adress of the creators of the original maps. Of course you get a flaming reply then.
Like I advise new mappers myself.
Your work clearly gives you a solid foundation on which you can base your advice.
there's always going to be those that hate your work.
I don't hate your work. It's just trash, I can't hate trash.
Some, the ones you should listen to, will point out things you could improve upon.
Only improvement I can think of is that you stop releasing these abominations.
(usually cause it's not up to snuff with others who have release 20x what you have and have portfolios of work for hopes of gaining an id software job - never mind that you might just be a hobbyist doing it for fun)
Everybody here is a hobbyist, stop talking nonsense.
Cause most of them can't do better themselves. And the ones that CAN, won't.
Because I was fed up with people like you releasing such crap, I am well underway doing better. Look here (http://trem.maci.ws/lava2).
As for which category YOU fall in Lava
I fall in the rather small category of people who have actually played the original maps, and therefore know what they are talking about when they tell you your maps are crappier and uglier than the original ones created for Gloom.
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a bunch of flaming crap
Why dont you stop your flaming, and go work on your map. Certainly you weren't perfect when you started releasing your maps, you needn't flame and try to discourage mappers when you have "better" stuff to do. So go back to GTK and work on your OWN map, not other people's. Oh, and BTW, you may have played original maps, but you certainly know nothing about maps that are balanced for gameplay, I'm not going to start flaming Sokolov's Space for three reasons; alot of the community likes the map; it's not a complete abomination; and I refuse to sink to the childish level of flaming you have succumbed to.
@DarkRogue - I played Infested Caverns on a beta serv and it's pretty good looking, brushes could use some smoothing but, what do I know, i suck at mapping. :wink:
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At least Xiane's maps don't have completely unassaultable alien bases.
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At least Xiane's maps don't have completely unassaultable alien bases.
You are misinformed.
And at the rest of you, I am even more newb to mapping than DarkRogue is, I have yet to release my first map, since Sokolov's Space is the first map I am releasing. The difference is not in the skill you have with mapping, but your own expectancy-level when it comes to your own work. I am not being unfriendly here for the sake of being unfriendly to Xiane, I know him from Gloom and I know that he is a nice guy.
The problem is that if he cannot see that his maps look and play worse than the original maps created for Quake II before we entered the year 2000, then he has a serious problem. Most of you people here have not played Gloom, and have not seen or played the original maps, which kind of makes your judgement about the maps obsolete. You do not understand he is releasing almost 10 year-old work in such a way that it is a direct insult to people who have played and love(d) the map, and not in the least to it's creator, since he is effectively pissing on his work by making it look and play worse. People who do have played the original maps, and I know quite a few of them, mostly feel the same about it, mostly in a less noisy way than I do.
While Jex may obviously have more mapping skills than any of us here(suck on it Who), it is mostly his devotion to a map that makes it look good, not his skills. Xiane has released two maps now, the second even being uglier and worse than the first, and I can only have nightmares about what piece of sacred ground he will pee on next.
If you show no respect for the work you are copying, you deserve no respect from people who love the original work either, how nice of a guy you may be. So stop creating and releasing this crap. Forever. Please.
[PS] Don't credit DarkRogue for the layout of his maps.
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Still being flame-ish, eh? If you wish to have the original Gloom maps ported into Tremulous beautifully, do it yourself. You are not being asked to look at Xiane's threads, nor are you being asked to download his maps, or even look at them. If you don't like them, that's your problem. Stay out of the thread if your only intent is to flame. in other words, GTFO and go hump a Grengar.
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Lava's point: not happy with the conversion.
Lava's occupation: sokolov = lots of time for that single map= no time to do it himself.
He isn't flaming he is hoping to either
a) convince him to make better conversions
b) stop him making more badly converted maps
He can't do it himself atm because any reasonably good looking map takes time and he is a new mapper already busy with one as he has said.
You keep avoiding his points and just saying he flames.
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At least Xiane's maps don't have completely unassaultable alien bases.
You are misinformed.
Humans cant even get to the alien base untill S2, much less shoot at it.
@Survivor : Yes, he is flaming, and if you're saying that he's being constructive, you're sadly mistaken. If you don't like them, that's your problem.
We see his points, they are poorly written and in a flame-ish manner, without any construcive criticism in any of them. If he were to suggest a way to convert the maps in a better way, or if he offered some help, he would not be flaming. However, with the absence of the previously mentioned characteristics of a nonflaming post, he is, indeed, flaming. Feel free to prove me wrong, well, feel free to try.
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Humans cant even get to the alien base untill S2, much less shoot at it.
You are misinformed too.
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Care to explain how humans can get to the alien base? I believe I have beta 6, there's no way to get to alien without a jetpack or /noclip, I cant seem to find that generator either :S. You missed the bulk of my post though, so, either you're avoiding it because i'm right, or you're avoiding it because you're wrong :P
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Care to explain how humans can get to the alien base? I believe I have beta 6, there's no way to get to alien without a jetpack or /noclip, I cant seem to find that generator either :S. You missed the bulk of my post though, so, either you're avoiding it because i'm right, or you're avoiding it because you're wrong :P
http://maci.ws/base for Sokolov's Space 0.6
I haven't seen you make any points yet, other than than that you think I flame. You do not seem to understand I do not want to give constructive criticism, I want him to delete this crap and start over, and do it right this time. If he is bent on bringing classic Gloom maps to Tremulous, he should not slack off and bring us crap. I have said this a few times now, and I am starting to get the idea you just do not (want) to understand me.
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Care to explain how humans can get to the alien base? I believe I have beta 6, there's no way to get to alien without a jetpack or /noclip, I cant seem to find that generator either :S. You missed the bulk of my post though, so, either you're avoiding it because i'm right, or you're avoiding it because you're wrong :P
http://maci.ws/base for Sokolov's Space 0.6
I haven't seen you make any points yet, other than than that you think I flame. You do not seem to understand I do not want to give constructive criticism, I want him to delete this crap and start over, and do it right this time. If he is bent on bringing classic Gloom maps to Tremulous, he should not slack off and bring us crap. I have said this a few times now, and I am starting to get the idea you just do not (want) to understand me.
yeah, i've got 0.6.....I thought I made my points. let me make them clearer for you. You were not asked to test, or even look at Xiane's maps, so dont. You are not being forced to download or play these maps, so dont. You're apparantly not occupied enough with Sokolov's since you have time to come here and flame maps, so port them yourself. Clear enough for you? I am in a particularly debatemental (is that a word?!) mood right now so feel free to argue your "points" more, but honestly, no one cares, there would be more people here, posting that they wanted Xiane to stop making crap if they did.
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Humans cant even get to the alien base untill S2, much less shoot at it.
You need to look at the map more closely. There is in fact a path to the alien base. There are also a number of stong human base locations. I played a match last night where s1 humans reached the alien base, but did not make it up the ladders to assault the OM/eggs due to trappers and tubes covering the one doorway S1 humans can get to OM by. Depending on the human base location, humans can have a long path to the alien base and a short return trip (following it around) or vice versa. S2 humans would alter that however with the availability of jet packs.
I think that you will find that Lava's map has quite a bit of gameplay depth to it that will at first be missed. Goon perches in strange and/or very useful locations, not to mention some that do not affect wallwalking are just some of the interesting accomplishments of this map. Beware dropping out of the alien base and pouncing into the lava pit, I might add :)
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@Survivor : Yes, he is flaming, and if you're saying that he's being constructive, you're sadly mistaken.
That someone does not agree with you does not automatically mean they are flaming you. Lava isn't a tactful guy but he sure as hell isn't directly insulting Xian, just the work he is releasing is subpar/beneath what Xian can do.
I too feel that there is potential in the gloom maps but that atm they just aren't as polished as they could be. In effect I am hoping Xian will get it together and polish the maps he currently has before starting new ones.
If you don't like them, that's your problem.
We see his points, they are poorly written and in a flame-ish manner, without any construcive criticism in any of them. If he were to suggest a way to convert the maps in a better way, or if he offered some help, he would not be flaming. However, with the absence of the previously mentioned characteristics of a nonflaming post, he is, indeed, flaming. Feel free to prove me wrong, well, feel free to try.
See above
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You were not asked to test, or even look at Xiane's maps, so dont. You are not being forced to download or play these maps, so dont.
I have the freedom to comment on these maps, maybe even more than all of you who have never played the original maps, or have made a map yourself.
You, rather, do not have the freedom to restrict my freedom to comment on these maps, so don't even try.
port them yourself.
I do not like porting maps because usually the results ends up somewhere between DarkRogue's and Jex's ports. I prefer original work, tailored to the game it's being designed for.
no one cares
I beg to differ, looking at the past few posts.
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no one cares
I beg to differ, looking at the past few posts.
now they all show up :roll:
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xianes gloom conversions play pretty well, just a shame they are ugly as can be.
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First off: lava doesn't know I can make better survivor.
Secondly: I'm the first to admit the 'prettiness' of my maps sucks. I suck at eye candy, architecture and complex texturing. I don't ever try to 'advise' people on such aspects (well other than texture alignment). I do advise on mechanics, things I have learned over time. I have yet to have anyone who excells at the eyecandy portion of maps EVER be helpful.
Third: Yup you're making one nice looking map lava. Gonna be saved in your portfolio too I wager. See while yes every mapper, texture artist, coder is a hobbyist in these games croft, some of them like Binary Cowbot, Rosharch and dozens of others build such works of art 1) to add to their portfolio and 2) because they enjoy it. Where as others do it: 1) Cause they enjoy it and 2) others may like it.
So while yes we're all hobbyists, I'm of the kind that really doesn't give a fuck if anyone else likes it. I do. And that's all that matters. :)
Fourth: Surviovor while yes lava is busy making one really good looking map he has time to flame others and flame he does as his posts add nothing constructive other than 'they're ugly', ok so that's a suggestion to work on the eye candy and architecture but doesn't exactly say in what areas. That's the difference. And a key note.
Fifth: And what do you consider as being 'right' lava? That's the point of people focusing on your flaming portions. What is it that you would consider 'right' and why is your way more 'right' than my own? Cause yours is an original and mine are ports. Remember Ice Station SE, that was completely original and got much the same flames.
Sixth: lava has no idea of my abilities Survivor, he does not know that I could do 'better' save based against his own mapping which admittedly looks better. Quantity does not equate to quality. While I've churned out over half a dozen playible maps they have never been architectural masterpeices, is the one part of mapping I've never been given ANY advice on just flamed for. And such is the case here again. Lava feels they are not being done 'right' yet fails to explain what 'right' is. The one map I feel I did 'justice' to was back on gloom Ice Station SE and people still flamed that for simple architecture.
Lastly: LAva has every right to comment. He can be constructive or not as he chooses. He just shouldn't be suprised that the lack of constructive criticism doesn't see me hopping up to comply to what he feels is wrong.
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Guys? what are the first things a mapper learns?
Beside getting to handle the tools?
One DOES NOT, NEVER EVER release the first map one has compiled.
If copying/converting a map one pays respect to the original mapper by showing him the copy/conversion BEFORE it is released to the public.
Those 2 points are in no way rules, rather common sense. If you phail, you phail in life...
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First off: lava doesn't know I can make better survivor.
Yes, Ice Station was a funny map, but also looked and played like crap, apart from that funny button that would totally ruin every game, and the retarded layout.
Stop acting like I do not know you, and stop pretending your abilities are greater than what you have showcased so far. It makes absolutely no sense to release maps that you yourself think aren't pretty, and even more important, aren't of the quality that you yourself think you can produce. That is just downright stupid, and also another reason for me to keep on fighting the crap you release. If your abilities are even a fraction of what you want to make us believe, then prove it by making something else than crap.
I map for two reasons, firstly because I just love to make maps and secondly because I am bored of the stock maps, and third-party maps with quality like yours are not something to get excited about. Since I am a loudmouth, I had to back up my moaning at other mappers by producing something that plays, but most importantly looks better.
So, if you want constructive criticism, please make and release maps that are at the top of your abilities, and not crap. You cannot expect me, or anyone for that matter, to give constructive criticism to someone who is obviously working below his level. Constructive criticism is on place when you showcase work that is made with all the skill you posess and in your case respect for the original maps. You cannot expect anyone to try and help you with work that is according to yourself below-par with what you can actually do. Show us something worthy, and I will be glad to give you feedback, as I do with any map that shows its creator has put his heart into it.
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ok so that's a suggestion to work on the eye candy and architecture but doesn't exactly say in what areas. That's the difference. And a key note.
While I've churned out over half a dozen playible maps they have never been architectural masterpeices, is the one part of mapping I've never been given ANY advice on just flamed for.
I have a question about these 2 points. You see, we (as in all the mappers on this forum, including you) don't instinctively know what other mappers want us to help them with.
I have in none of the threads about your maps seen any questions coming from you about architectural/aesthetics help.
We are not here to think about everything but we are here to answer smart questions.
Fact is; You're not a bad mapper. At least not truly in the sense of technique.
You're a bad mapper in the sense of polishing. Just had a look around infested pumpstation and caverns looking purely for some small stuff which would make it either more interesting visually or gameplay wise.
Trimming, You have little use of trimming, it exists in some spots but markings on the floor showing use, more definition of rooms, not simply ending most rooms as boxes helps a lot. One thing you'll most definately notice in original trem maps is the addition of parts you cannot reach. Look at the pipes running beneath the floors in arachnid and the outside area in arachnid behind the windows. The glass flooring in parts of nexus not the least in the large cylinders near human base and the large pipe room. They are not simply concrete cylinders/octagons, they have true definition, you can see inside, get a feel for what that room is supposed to be.
Lights, I applaud your use of lots of lighttextures, they indeed make your maps seem more natural. Why o why then are most of your lights usually square boxes with one side a light emitting texture? Give them a true place, put some cables between a series of them a hallway. Give them a feeling
You barely use filler and if you do it is incorrectly. Filler is necessary, again for the feeling but this one you can actually also use for gameplay. For example a crate. You have some, everybody has. What could help make crates distinct is the alien hitboxes. In late games some crates in rooms sporting only 40 gu width between them can save some larmour from a tyrant if it has to walk around. Some pipes with a small hole leading to a room above might make a nice escaperoute for adv granger when an alien base is lost.
Another thing to remember is start positions, they matter greatly in a game. Caverns for example has a human base with effectively one way out which ends in easy escape/ambush routes for aliens. Put it somewhere else, shuffle it. Try reading the gameflow guide on trem.info. I haven't yet put it up on the mapping wiki since I'm not yet done with rethinking and redoing it but you will at least understand some basic dynamics from it. First part of the pdf here. LINKIES (http://tremulous.info/index.php?module=feature&action=show&id=22)
Also a thing lacking in all your maps is true base locations. Yes you have rooms in a dead end for humans, yes you have some height for aliens. But you're forgetting their defenses. Think about the z/x/y angled surfaces for efficient trapper placement making them unpredictable. Think about tesla use in high rooms, think about snipeable turrets.
You are the mapper and as such you have an unbelievable influence on the way the map is played. If you make a good alien location or 2 aliens will probably move, humans might intercept them there. If you make a starting alien base relatively strong for s1 and 2 but weak at s3 you force them to move. If you make turrets easily snipeable you force humans to move. But these are all moot points if there isn't anything better to move to. Tempt them, give them something which makes it worthwhile. A human base in an area with the crates as i mentioned might last pretty long in s3 while not truly making it invincible. People would have to adapt to less tyrs more goons/marauders.
Remember:
The players play tremulous. The mappers play the players
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To comment on the map:
This appears to be an alien side / human side map, and IMHO that means that each team should feel as though it is invading the territory of another species when they go to attack.
This needs two distinctly different areas with a short transition between them. So far there's the alien cave and the human tunnels and they join with no transition. How bout a more detailed human area and organic alien caves separated by short "blocky" sections where the humans had drilled through the rock into the alien caves? Think of the idea like this: "The miners had broken through into unknown natural caverns, but then all contact was lost with the underground base. Fearing the worst the marines were sent in"
The caves look too blocky with too many straight lines - this makes them inorganic; they look almost as if they had been quarried by the humans. Straight lines detract from the "non-human" feel. Perhaps a terrain technique similar to the one used by DASPRiD in Ancient Remains would produce better results. Slime textures could be alpha-blended with the rock textures to simulate vast expanses of alien creep. Some stalagmites and the like would complete the natural cave look. Possibly add some glowing alien organisms or some portable lamps left by the humans to add light to the caves. See this thread for organic textures: http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3569
The human side is bland with little detail. As an underground installation there would be air ducting, an entry point(s), cables for lighting, water supply and what not. How about adding a large (inoperable) door or a large platform elevator? That would give the feel of being in part of a larger human base. Adding a fat air duct and one or two other pipes along the human tunnels would add significant visual weight, as would suspended lamps. Trails of mud left from mining and blood smears on the floors and walls can add to the impression of being in a recently occupied underground base, as would a few models of rock drills and the like left about.
This map still has potential.
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There, me and taiyo summed it up pretty much. Hope you will refine caverns first since it borders more on the alien side of maps and we have so few of them.