Tremulous Forum
Mods => Mod Releases => Non-Gameplay Changing => Topic started by: Undeference on February 06, 2007, 12:30:17 am
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Since Risujin decided to base his new game.qvm on my code and people have begun to confuse his builds with mine, I thought it might be appropriate to create a separate thread for mine.
Today (21 March 2007) I released a build against svn 912. This build is compatible with stock Tremulous 1.1.0 clients. You can download it at mkpdev.googlepages.com (http://betaserv.tk/mkpdev.googlepages.com/). All of the deviations from base svn are detailed in the README and will not be listed here (who really wants a page-long list anyway?). If you just want a bunch of cool features, this might not be for you.
If you find bugs with my builds, this is the place to report them (or by PM (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=3014.0)). If it is a bug with Risujin's build, the Risujin/Avenger game QVM (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=1488) thread is probably the place to report it.
[Edit: Fixed links that were broken from phpBB2->SMF.]
[Edit: Change links with broken redirect.]
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maybe he should remove avenger title from the builds
maybe : risujin's server only
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Eh, I don't really care, as long as people don't blame me for Risujin's bugs :P (just my own). Since some people still call it "Balance Lite", I think renaming it again would just make people that much more confused.
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Eh, I don't really care, as long as people don't blame me for Risujin's bugs :P (just my own). Since some people still call it "Balance Lite", I think renaming it again would just make people that much more confused.
Technically its just your patch with !layout, \share, and some other minor stuff in it and personally I'd be more than happy to stop maintaining it. Your patch should have TJW's layout commands in it and since thats the way it's going to be from now on might as well let people get used to it.
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Did you fix the callvote map_restart bug?
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A long time ago. Actually, it's my fault that Risujin's version 3 QVM has that bug. It's what happens when the latest patch you have lying around is several months old :-/
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A long time ago. Actually, it's my fault that Risujin's version 3 QVM has that bug. It's what happens when the latest patch you have lying around is several months old :-/
Can we get a single distribution going here? I don't want to have to make a new "Risujin's Avenger QVM" ... you seem to be missing a few good patches.
Here are the changes I ended up adding, most of these can be disabled with cvars:
-- \share? \donate?
-- g_retribution
-- g_shove that can stack
-- my blaster ckit fix
-- generic flood protection
-- I won't insist on !layout or !slap :)
I realize there aren't clean patches against SVN879 for most of these changes, I can provide those if you're interested.
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-- \share? \donate?
I don't like them. With share, I can make stacking all the more effective. With donate, I can practically ensure a win for my team if no one on the other team is as good as me.
-- g_retribution
I am currently working on a rewrite of player_die that is (hopefully) cleaner and is similar in functionality to retribution.
-- g_shove that can stack
Is that a serious fix? In Bugzilla?
-- my blaster ckit fix
That is minor. The only real argument I can think of for having it is that grangers can attack while their build counter resets.
-- generic flood protection
There are problems with any "flood prevention" system and I'm not sure which way I'd want to go if I were in a position to choose. Luckily, there hasn't been much need for it to date. (Of course we're all waiting for the day when human moderators can be replaced, but I think that's still some time in the future.)
I realize there aren't clean patches against SVN879 for most of these changes, I can provide those if you're interested.
If you want to write patches for my build specifically (and I can't really imagine why unless perhaps it's to fix a bug specific to my build), don't do it to revision 879. The build is essentially a copy of revision 894 minus some.
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-- my blaster ckit fix
That is minor. The only real argument I can think of for having it is that grangers can attack while their build counter resets.
:D this gave me an idea for tremx
zapping cancel build fire
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How about "OMG SUPER QVM".
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A long time ago. Actually, it's my fault that Risujin's version 3 QVM has that bug. It's what happens when the latest patch you have lying around is several months old :-/
Can we get a single distribution going here? I don't want to have to make a new "Risujin's Avenger QVM" ... you seem to be missing a few good patches.
Here are the changes I ended up adding, most of these can be disabled with cvars:
-- \share? \donate?
-- g_retribution
-- g_shove that can stack
-- my blaster ckit fix
-- generic flood protection
-- I won't insist on !layout or !slap :)
I realize there aren't clean patches against SVN879 for most of these changes, I can provide those if you're interested.
yes plz, i would like to patch them myself :P it is pretty hard right now to get it all working together.
dodo
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-- \share? \donate?
I don't like them.
This is why I end up having to maintain three different QVMs. You don't like a feature therefore no server operator would ever want it. :x
My philosophy is add it and let the people who end up actually playing it decide (admins in any case).
-- g_retribution
I am currently working on a rewrite of player_die that is (hopefully) cleaner and is similar in functionality to retribution.
Cleaner how? Its like 10 lines of code. Basically you make a TKer pay their victim.
-- g_shove that can stack
Is that a serious fix? In Bugzilla?
I just looked at it and the only real difference between my version and SVN is that, in SVN, when you are the larger entity and you jump on top of the smaller one it gets shoved out from under you. So a granger can't ride a dretch.
-- my blaster ckit fix
That is minor.
One line of code and human builders are a little less defenseless. Add:
case WP_BLASTER:
To g_active.c:696 ClientTimerActions()
-- generic flood protection
There are problems with any "flood prevention" system and I'm not sure which way I'd want to go if I were in a position to choose. Luckily, there hasn't been much need for it to date.
If I were a server op I would love an automatic way to shut up spammers. Takes care of every spam-related server instability automatically (remember \team spam?). Been languishing in bugzilla for ages, I wonder why it hasn't been merged...
https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2811
If you want to write patches for my build specifically (and I can't really imagine why unless perhaps it's to fix a bug specific to my build)
To add all the patches you consistently ignore...
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If you're compiling a qvm for all-purpose use, you should only include the features which are already standardized, not erroneous commands that are used for entertainment...
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If you're compiling a qvm for all-purpose use, you should only include the features which are already standardized, not erroneous commands that are used for entertainment...
I can't say this enough: All of these are DISABLED by default.
Yarou, could you possibly set a larger sig? :evil:
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My philosophy is add it and let the people who end up actually playing it decide (admins in any case).
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To add all the patches you consistently ignore...
I'm trying not to diverge too much from svn. (That is part of the reason I don't like this being called a "mod".) You may also want to refer to my first post in this thread: "If you just want a bunch of cool features, this might not be for you."
I'm more interested in what happens to Tremulous than this specific build. I am more likely to add a feature to my code if it's in Bugzilla and seems likely to ultimately make it into svn in some form or other.
in SVN, when you are the larger entity and you jump on top of the smaller one it gets shoved out from under you.
That could be a bug. Why don't you report it?
Cleaner how? Its like 10 lines of code. Basically you make a TKer pay their victim.
Cleaner by being more straight forward, trying to reduce the distinction between "nice simple happy bouncy human land" and "horribly complex nasty alien land". I also try to reward based on accomplishment more than anything else (and punish team kills and suicides differently).
Your functionality could be duplicated, but I don't know if it would be wanted assuming my changes work as I want them to.
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I'm trying not to diverge too much from svn. (That is part of the reason I don't like this being called a "mod".)
Err... a mod (and yes, this is) thats "not trying to diverge too much"? Yours is the most hacked up version of Trem Ive seen short of Balance/TremX. Thats not a good reason.
in SVN, when you are the larger entity and you jump on top of the smaller one it gets shoved out from under you.
That could be a bug. Why don't you report it?
Yeah, along with a patch.
Cleaner by being more straight forward, trying to reduce the distinction between "nice simple happy bouncy human land" and "horribly complex nasty alien land". I also try to reward based on accomplishment more than anything else (and punish team kills and suicides differently).
Your functionality could be duplicated, but I don't know if it would be wanted assuming my changes work as I want them to.
Retribution has nothing to do with recoding "horribly complex nasty alien land". You are reinventing the wheel. :roll:
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dont argue, get coding :P
this way we would have better qvm's, and less arguing in forums.
dodo
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How about this, a lite qvm, then a mega qvm, mega has everything, lite has basics.
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How about this, a lite qvm, then a mega qvm, mega has everything, lite has basics.
Thats whats so dumb about it. The features we're talking about here are disabled by default ... theres no sense in leaving em out and flooding QVMs left and right... :-?
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well. just do a patch with all the extra features for this qvm and make it public, so then anyone cound just patch it if they want.
dodo
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well. just do a patch with all the extra features for this qvm and make it public, so then anyone cound just patch it if they want.
How about this, one QVM, with everything, but off by default.
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well. just do a patch with all the extra features for this qvm and make it public, so then anyone cound just patch it if they want.
How about this, one QVM, with everything, but off by default.
DUDE ARE YOU LIEK A ROCKET SCIENTIST IRL?
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No, just a person who quotes other people's post in my own words in some ways.
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i think everyone has been wanting an idea like this for a while...but most people cant do it and the ones that can are too lazy/busy to do it
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I don't know if its me, or the patch, but I setup the server and I did everything I am suppose to do, and when it setup I entered the server and admin works great, except for chatting, I could not TeamTalk or Talk at all.
So if there was something I did not patch right someone let me know please.
Thank You
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How about this, one QVM, with everything, but off by default.
That's what I'm trying to nag Undeference into doing. :)
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I don't know if its me, or the patch, but I setup the server and I did everything I am suppose to do, and when it setup I entered the server and admin works great, except for chatting, I could not TeamTalk or Talk at all.
So if there was something I did not patch right someone let me know please.
Thank You
Yikes! Good find.
I fixed it and updated the patch and qvm. If you want to manually fix it, look for
// send it to all the apropriate clients
for( j = 0; j < level.maxclients; j++ )
{
other = &g_entities[ j ];
G_SayTo( ent, target, mode, color, name, text, prefix );
}in src/game/g_cmds.c (line 993 in my copy) and change the 'G_SayTo' line to
G_SayTo( ent, other, mode, color, name, text, prefix ); (it was 'target' but should have been 'other').
Err... a mod (and yes, this is) thats "not trying to diverge too much"? Yours is the most hacked up version of Trem Ive seen short of Balance/TremX. Thats not a good reason.
The difference between svn code and my code is that I include changes that may make it to svn but are not there yet. The better tested a feature or bug fix is, the more likely it is to be included or excluded (depending on the outcome of the testing).
Call it a "development build" if you will, but "mod" gives the wrong impression: that this is just a cool hack-up, more for entertainment than functionality.
Retribution has nothing to do with recoding "horribly complex nasty alien land". You are reinventing the wheel.
player_die is not related to retribution; retribution relies on player_die
If the wheel needs fixing, it should be fixed. "horribly complex" ~ "broken"
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"mod" gives the wrong impression: that this is just a cool hack-up, more for entertainment than functionality.
It's a game! It's meant for entertainment. :)
"horribly complex" ~ "broken"
If it ain't broken (i.e. not working) don't fix it. But whatever, it's your time not mine. :roll:
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It's a game! It's meant for entertainment.
I figured it would be more appropriate if I used "entertainment" than "shits and giggles".
If it ain't broken (i.e. not working)
Coming from you...? :o
Just because it works don't mean it ain't broke.
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Okay now children, split it up. :barricade:
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in src/game/g_admin.c (line 993 in my copy) and change the 'G_SayTo' line to
I believe that "g_admin.c" should actually be g_cmds.c. I mean, the error you mention is in the file src/game/g_cmds.c.
Undeference/Avenger: How do you propose to change the player_die routine? I agree that the alien bit seems very inelegant. I assumed that it was written that way because evos are only scored in integer values. The human and alien halves of the routine could be reconciled if we start scoring evos as floats, but I suspect that's not what you intend...
On another note, I was also playing with player_die. I didn't want to change gameplay by altering how cash/evos are awarded, but I added an independent section to change how "kills" are awarded.
Basically, in my version, when a player dies everyone who did recent damage to the player receives +kills or -kills depending on how much damage they did. This includes both teammates and opponents. In addition, a player receives -kills for being injured by opponents on the basis that this helps the opponents.
So effectively, the score in the scoreboard "kills" column now reflects how much you've helped your team, with 0 being perfect balance.
Is this similar to your approach? I'd be interested in comparing notes and would be happy to provide a copy of the patch (or I could just post it on Bugzilla). It's currently running on my server, Avalanche.
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Basically, in my version, when a player dies everyone who did recent damage to the player receives +kills or -kills depending on how much damage they did. This includes both teammates and opponents. In addition, a player receives -kills for being injured by opponents on the basis that this helps the opponents.
If say, you did nothing but run around and get hacked to pieces by the aliens (without dying!), and ran back to heal every time, you have not hurt your team BUT your "kills" score would be deep negative. Not only does this make no sense (who was "killed"?) but it doesn't reflect your performance either.
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If say, you did nothing but run around and get hacked to pieces by the aliens (without dying!), and ran back to heal every time, you have not hurt your team BUT your "kills" score would be deep negative. Not only does this make no sense (who was "killed"?) but it doesn't reflect your performance either.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. :) Your score is only altered when you die.
Here's how the patch works right now: When you die, everyone who's done recent damage to you is assessed. The total damage done BY PLAYERS is divided up in points as follows:
- Players on your own team get -points for damage done to you.
- Players on the other team get +points for damage done to you.
- You get -points for all damage done by the other team.
Points are given in proportion to damage done. Human and alien point values are based on their assessed 'death value' and are then scaled linearly so that unarmed human = dretch = 1.00 points.
One consequence of this is that a player who dies mostly on turrets (or acid tubes) is only worth a few points to the alien who only provides the killing blow.
There's more nuance to this, of course, but that's the general outline.
Also, the patch will include a change to the scoreboard menu so that "Kills" is changed to the more appropriate "Score". I want to repeat that right now, the patch ONLY affects the scoreboard. It doesn't affect cash/evos at all.
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in src/game/g_admin.c (line 993 in my copy) and change the 'G_SayTo' line to
I believe that "g_admin.c" should actually be g_cmds.c. I mean, the error you mention is in the file src/game/g_cmds.c.
Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I changed the post to have the correct file name.
Undeference/Avenger: How do you propose to change the player_die routine?
There are a different things I am testing, but nothing I specifically want. It could end up being functionally identical. Part of the idea is that the way that scoring is done can be readily changed by modifying code in as few places as possible.
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I'm not buying into all this "my patch is better than your patch" but I will say good work to all of you who are trying to improve the game.
My server is trying to find a game.qvm which has effective flood protection to keep spam kiddies from crashing our servers. If anyone can suggest something that doesn't have too many bugs PLEASE tell me - now be honest please.
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I'm not buying into all this "my patch is better than your patch" but I will say good work to all of you who are trying to improve the game.
My server is trying to find a game.qvm which has effective flood protection to keep spam kiddies from crashing our servers. If anyone can suggest something that doesn't have too many bugs PLEASE tell me - now be honest please.
if your server crashes because of spam DO NOT RUN IT
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ask paradox for flood protection he got it workin with no bugs on sst
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Undeference/Avenger, got another question for you...
I've been working on an anti-deconner patch against the latest SVN revision and I noticed that your patch does NOT include the g_markDeconstruct functionality that was in svn 880 and up. No criticism, just curious why you left that out...
Actually it was a bit of a shock to see it in the current code. From what I can tell this 'marking' buildables is a fairly different approach to building and I'm surprised I hadn't heard of it before. I don't know any servers that use it, either...
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Undeference/Avenger, got another question for you...
I've been working on an anti-deconner patch against the latest SVN revision and I noticed that your patch does NOT include the g_markDeconstruct functionality that was in svn 880 and up. No criticism, just curious why you left that out...
Actually it was a bit of a shock to see it in the current code. From what I can tell this 'marking' buildables is a fairly different approach to building and I'm surprised I hadn't heard of it before. I don't know any servers that use it, either...
it's not in his code because it requires extra work to make compatible with 1.1.0 clients, it also requires a client download for anyone to be able to see the decon marker (and that will just about empty your server). the functionality has been planned for a really long time, but it only went into svn recently.
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Ah, thanks, Kevlarman. It does look pretty neat. Can't wait to see it when the next official version comes out. In the meantime I guess I'll have to make sure my patch is compatible with it, which shouldn't be too difficult.
Famous last words. :)
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Ah, thanks, Kevlarman. It does look pretty neat. Can't wait to see it when the next official version comes out.
oops, i knew i was forgetting something in my post: there are currently 2 servers that have g_markdeconstruct up: trem.tjw.org and mg central (though mg central is in the middle of a move, so it might not be up for a few days)
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Also Betaserv :-)
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guys were do i put the svn file for the game.qvm?? for avengers build
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The svnXXX.patch file is a patch file (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patch_%28Unix%29). Where you put it does not matter. You need to apply the patch to an appropriate version of the svn code using a program that applies unidiff patches.
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The svnXXX.patch
I want it
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so if i put it anywere in my trem folder it will work
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Where you put the patch does not matter. You just have to apply the patch to the source code (where that is also does not matter).
I am assuming you are referring to the patch file, since you said "the svn file". If you just want to use the pre-built game.qvm, you don't need the patch file at all.
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na i got the svn file with the game.qvm and i dont know how to write code
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Well, here's a brief outline of how to use a patch file...
First of all, to simply USE Avenger's mod (or any mod) you don't need the patch at all. Just download the game.qvm file and put it in the right place, which would be:
Windows: C:\Documents and Settings\YourUserName\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\vm\game.qvm
Linux: ~/.tremulous/base/vm/game.qvm
Second of all, if you want to make your own mods or change Avenger's mod... well, are you running Windows, or Linux? Let's assume you're running Debian or Ubuntu Linux. Then you need to do more or less the following steps:
[list=1]
- Install Subversion using this command:
apt-get install subversion
- Make a directory for tremulous source code and move to that directory. Something like this:
mkdir ~/Tremulous[/li][/list]
mkdir ~/Tremulous/src
cd ~/Tremulous/src
- Check out an SVN revision of the code. If you want (for example) to make Avenger's mod, you'll need to use SVN 879. To get this you call Subversion with the command
svn co -r 879 svn://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunkThis should download a full copy of the Tremulous source code into your current directory.
- Now you'll want to apply Avenger's patch. Let's assume that you've put Avenger's patch file (which is named svn879.patch) in your home directory. Then you'd do this:
cd ~/Tremulous/src/trunk[/li][/list]
patch -p0 < ~/svn879.patch and that would apply the patch.
- Now all you need to do is compile the code, which is as simple as typing
cd ~/Tremulous/src/trunk[/li][/list]
make
- Once it's done compiling, all the new compiled files (including a game.qvm and the tremded and tremulous executables) can be found in ~/Tremulous/src/trunk/build and its various subdirectories.
[/list:o]
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Oh, and if you actually want to make your own modifications instead of using Avenger's mod, then after step 3 you can go into the source code directory (~/Tremulous/src/trunk in this example) and play to your heart's content. When you've finished the changes you want to make, you can do
cd ~/Tremulous/src/trunk
svn diff > mynewmod.patch and this will create a patch file containing all the changes you made to the original source code.
That's a rough outline, but hopefully it gives you an idea of what you need to do in order to make mods and use patches.
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yea but i am using windows foo
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TortoiseSVN comes with something called TortoiseMerge, can that merge and compile, or do i have to use cygwin?
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OH but i have avengers svn
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svn -co 879 svn://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunkshould besvn co -r 879 svn://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk
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You are so right. I edited the original post. Now we're even. :)
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Hmm, does tjw's latest binary have the deconstruct markers on it?
Also, for flood protection, i use Risujins, and set g_minfloodtime to 2000, and g_maxflooddemerits to 3000, thats about 3 lines every 2 seconds.
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Hmm, does tjw's latest binary have the deconstruct markers on it?
His latest game.qvm does not include most of the new stuff in svn. It primarily includes various things he is/was working on that may or may not make it into svn eventually. But the svn revision that his patch is against is pretty old (and, if it did inclede most of the stuff in svn now, it would be a lot larger than it is).
My build against r879 had a lot of really stupid things (just stupid, not functionally apparent) so I decided to go the reverse direction. I made a new build from r899 that is almost identical to the r879 build, but actually required a lot less work. I also removed a bunch of things that served no functional purpose aside from increasing the patch size.
Since the patch is only concerned with the game.qvm, you should not apply it to any code you intend to build a client, server, or cgame from. (The patch includes a change to the Makefile to prevent making cgame or ui qvms.)
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Your build timer is screwed up.
I am running this on _____|COM|AoD|
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Hmm...
So, this patch doesn't include g_markDeconstruct because that requires client-side changes?
Did you specifically change the Makefile so that it would not make client-side qvms, or was that just a side-effect of some other change?
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Did you specifically change the Makefile so that it would not make client-side qvms, or was that just a side-effect of some other change?
You can do that or you can just distribute the game.qvm and pray no major incompatibilities are found. ;)
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Your build timer is screwed up.
I am running this on _____|COM|AoD|
How so?
So, this patch doesn't include g_markDeconstruct because that requires client-side changes?
It would be trivial to make it technically compatible without any client side changes. But it would not be compatible with users, for one thing. There is a reason for the client side markers.
Did you specifically change the Makefile so that it would not make client-side qvms
Yes. It won't be that way in the next version though.
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Yesterday, when I installed it, it was doing instantaneous building.
But today, it was fixed.
Also, your share is broken.
!map shouldn't default to level 2.
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Yesterday, when I installed it, it was doing instantaneous building.
But today, it was fixed.
Yesterday you had cheats enabled. Today you don't.
Also, your share is broken.
Haha, good one!
!map shouldn't default to level 2.
It doesn't.
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Also, your share is broken.
Haha, good one!
Yup, I'm pretty sure that Undeference has never included share (or donate) in his builds. Although everyone takes it for granted nowadays, we should remember that share is NOT currently in SVN at all. I don't know whether the devs plan on putting it in 1.2 or not. Anybody know?
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Also, your share is broken.
Haha, good one!
Its in the cvars.
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I was bored, so I made a new qvm. No more Makefile hack. (I don't recommend compiling clients, client qvms, or tremded, without some other changes as well.)
This has Risujin's blaster/ckit reload thing, since he was so adamant about it. It also has a new feature that is more fair than share or donate (and, yes, even steal) called take.
/take credits will give you up to credits from your teammates. How many you get and whether you are eligible to get any is based on the value of the cvar g_takeRatio. 0 effectively disables the feature and 1 lets you take up to 2000 credits or 9 evolution points from teammates who have that many. I recommend a value between 0.2 and 0.6.
Try it out.
It also has Wolfwings's patch for tremstats.
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Does the new one have share and donate?
And can take be limited to a specific admin class?
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Does the new one have share and donate?
No, but it has take which accomplishes the same thing. The difference is pretty much just the name, but take is a little more complicated.
And can take be limited to a specific admin class?
Why would you want that? Isn't that kind of like only letting an admin use noclip or god (or even buy, sell, or class) when no one else can, i.e., unfair?
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Players who are untrusted could abuse /take, if /take and /share were both added to the SVN, trusted players (with a very low admin level) could /take, and unnameds or non-regulars would have to ask for credits.
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Players who are untrusted could abuse /take
Correction, any players can use take part of the time. Explain how it can be abused and how adding share fixes the purported problem...
(Also, I'm pretty sure share has about as much chance of getting in svn as take or steal do, and that is to say absolutely none at all.)
Edit:
Let me explain how take works before you criticize it based solely on its name.
A player uses "/take #" and gets up to that many credits, based on g_takeRatio, the amount specified, and the "excess" credits on that team. If the player using take has g_takeRatio*max or more credits, they will get nothing. They can only take up to g_takeRatio*max credits. They will only get credits from players with g_takeRatio*max or more credits. They might not get the specified amount.
The higher g_takeRatio is, the more credits you can get, but the less likely there is anyone who can give. (But the people who can give, have more money, so it evens out.) The lower g_takeRatio is, the fewer credits you must have before you can get any.
If you have more than 2 players on your team and g_takeRatio is set reasonably, your teammates will probably not even notice if you use take (and you probably won't notice when they do).
With share, some alien teams will exploit the fact that dragoons are overpowered (when compared with the average human's aptitude for dealing with them) without doing any work. Take, on the other hand, requires that at least someone does some work, and limits the effectiveness of such unfair tactics. (In other words, if you join a game late, you might be able to get a dragoon or marauder right away, but you probably won't be able to do that at the start of a game.)
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With share, some alien teams will exploit the fact that dragoons are overpowered (when compared with the average human's aptitude for dealing with them) without doing any work. Take, on the other hand, requires that at least someone does some work, and limits the effectiveness of such unfair tactics. (In other words, if you join a game late, you might be able to get a dragoon or marauder right away, but you probably won't be able to do that at the start of a game.)
\take does not address this issue. You can have a 9 evo'd dragoon running around and he will be a prime target for getting his credits \taken away.
Also \take harms team harmony in a way \share doesn't. \share is a gift, a donation -- you are doing what you want with your money, when you want. \take, on the other hand, is outright Robin Hood style theft. What will basically happen is no one will be able to have more money than the take threshold, ever, as everyone will have \take 9999 bound and be tapping it every few seconds. I can hear the cries of "WTF happen to my evos!!!" already...
Furthermore, \take doesn't enable the same kind of gameplay. A team of 5, where everyone has one evo, cannot assemble a Tyrant with \take, but can with \share.
If you are concerned with people running about with full credits, a better feature would be spill-over. After 2000 credits, or 9 evos, further money will go to your teammates or into BPS etc.
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\take does not address this issue. You can have a 9 evo'd dragoon running around and he will be a prime target for getting his credits \taken away.
Your example defeats your argument. You have a rich dragoon running around who could only potentially benefit from another 3 evolution points. Is it good that there is a dragoon with 9 evolution points? The very fact that it is a dragoon running around with 9 evolution points implies it is not planning on evolving immediately (and even if it were it would not need those points).
It is probably going around kill whoring and those extra evolution points its teammates could use are going to complete waste. But they could just use take...
You are portraying this as though it targets a single player. It does not. It distributes the burden fairly evenly for everyone who can afford it (for certain definitions of "afford").
Also \take harms team harmony in a way \share doesn't. \share is a gift, a donation -- you are doing what you want with your money, when you want. \take, on the other hand, is outright Robin Hood style theft.
Rich people tend to give expensive gifts they don't need. This is not allowed in Tremulous even with share. But you are right about this being the Robin Hood patch since it takes from the rich and gives to the needy.
What will basically happen is no one will be able to have more money than the take threshold, ever, as everyone will have \take 9999 bound and be tapping it every few seconds. I can hear the cries of "WTF happen to my evos!!!" already...
You are assuming that someone will take some money, buy equipment, feed, rinse and repeat, and their teammates will never catch on. You are assuming that this accounts for 90% or more of the Tremulous players. Even if this were to happen, which I doubt, you could always make a bind like "take 70; buy larmour" and never worry about carrying spare cash.
Also, remember that that threshold is configurable with g_takeRatio. The point would usually be to have that at a point low enough that no one can drain too much, but high enough so that money taken is usable.
Furthermore, \take doesn't enable the same kind of gameplay. A team of 5, where everyone has one evo, cannot assemble a Tyrant with \take, but can with \share.
Tremulous is a team game, not a typical Rambo kill-em-all shooter. If that team were capable of working as such, they would not need to pool their money to get a big bad beastie.
If you are concerned with people running about with full credits, a better feature would be spill-over. After 2000 credits, or 9 evos, further money will go to your teammates or into BPS etc.
That relies on people getting the full amount of credits allowed, which should not happen typically (unless someone is going out kill whoring and is not really supporting their team in any way). Take let's them help their team, willing or no.
At a point, you have to question sharing / donating / pooling points. Players have credits, not teams. Why is this? I don't think Tremulous was designed with socialism in mind.
Edit:
I don't mean to give the impression that I'm so arrogant I actually believe everything I do is perfect. The fact is that, of all the perfectly valid complaints one could have with take (all of which are just how I implemented it, part of why I want it tested out), the things brought up are least problematic. If these things actually effect take, then I screwed something up, but most of them effect it less than the supposedly better alternatives.
This is a different approach to solve problems with things designed to solve non-problems. I don't know how well it will accomplish that because everyone is so stuck up on share that they won't even try it.
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Okay, so if you have more then the /take threshold, you can't /take any more? What if the threshold was 100, you're about to grab that luci and suddenly you get stolen from? Atleast let players individually set their /take thresholds or set wheather or no they'll allow players to /take from them. There's enough arguing within the human team already, I don't want to hear idiots running around saying "who the FUCK stole my credits?! Also, I wouldn't want unnameds or feeders running around with my credits at S3.
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Answer me this: how often are you actually in trouble where you need more credits to do what you want? My guess is either all the time (in which case take can help you) or not very often (in which case take doesn't hurt you).
If you just need an extra 100 credits for that luci, kill a dretch. If g_takeRatio is set appropriately and you have more than 2 players on your team, (assuming they aren't all feeders) there shouldn't be a problem. Fortunately, there are usually at least as many campers as there are feeders.
Again, this is a hypothetical situation that is not as common as you make it sound. It's possible that take makes it happen more often or entirely eliminates that situation. There hasn't been enough play testing to know what the problems are and how best to fix them. And there won't be if people keep getting dissuaded by hypothetical situations that may or may not occur.
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All that discussion is moot. Both give and take suck :o Tremulous wasn't meant for players to share money between them.
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s/give/share/ - that's the name of the command, if it isn't what it does.
I agree completely. Other people :roll: don't.
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share is good...but noone says when they need credits and when they do everyone ignores them....it's basically obsolete except for clans playing a public game.
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Donate is good, I use it when I have 2000 creds / 9 evo.
Dont get rid of share.
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I dislike share, take, steal, and any other possible incarnation of the same set of ideas. The only thing I would possibly be in favor of is a overflow system, wherein someone with maxed creds kills something, and the creds it would get go to the person with the lowest creds on their team at the time.
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Donate is good, I use it when I have 2000 creds / 9 evo.
Dont get rid of share.
Yes, get rid of share. It's not because YOU are good that your whole team should be able to get top quality equipment/evos. If you want that, make it so that they get the kill and stop kill hoarding the humans with your goon/tyrant.
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If you just need an extra 100 credits for that luci, kill a dretch.
This is why Tremulous isn't supposed to need a credit sharing command, right? No matter the state of the game, a naked human is supposed to somehow be able to find and kill a dretch at leisure, right? Wrong, sir!
At S3 aliens, at least one tyrant will be hanging out at every enterance. Not necessarilly kill whoring (though often the case), but often just waiting to attack again. The problem is, that tyrant is as close to the base as he can get. Any dretch on his team can't get closer without getting shot, so, there are no dretches to shoot unless you get past the tyrant. What naked human ever gets past a tyrant? There is an analogous case with humans and a luci bsuit. Dretches can't get out of their base without getting caught in luci spam.
The case for credit sharing, or a communcal bank which accepts overflows or donations, is that it is in your interest as a player to give money to your teammates. Why? Because if they are larger or have more gear, they won't feed. This is not equivalent to leaving the kills to your teammates. In S3 vs S3, if you are the last chainsuit left, you may be the only one left capable of making kills (goons, tyrants, etc).
Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.
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At least \take will need an anti-spam/flood system or all players will stuck with the minimum amount they can have according to the g_takeRatio variable.
The only thing I would possibly be in favor of is a overflow system, wherein someone with maxed creds kills something, and the creds it would get go to the person with the lowest creds on their team at the time.
\donate is the best.
\share + noobs = unplayable match: "Give me evos! Give me creds!!"....."UnnamedPlayer was chomped by Warrior's dragoon".
In this case, players will depend on sharing and won't play well (except for good players that will be the credits/evos source).
\take + g_takeRatio 0.2 + feeders = $400 max credits for humans as the feeders will use \take all time.
Tremulous is getting every time more new players and this is becoming true:
You are assuming that this accounts for 90% or more of the Tremulous players
Note: I don't have tested the \take in a real game yet.
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Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.
That is the case only if this feeder is capable of feeding faster than the team is capable of getting kills and this feeder does this repeatedly without the other members of the team doing anything about it.
By the same logic, construction kits are bad because it is possible for someone to deconstruct the reactor. The difference is that deconstructing the reactor is immediate and has direct negative results. What you described is a process that takes time and can be prevented, and its only negative effect is that someone who wants to buy equipment with money they didn't earn will have to wait.
Oh and /share fails because you can't give a teammate the maximum number of credits if you don't have them. Oh boo hoo! Go do something constructive like playing in traffic instead of wasting my time with bullshit like this. So you have concerns about this and what do you do? Without even using it in actual game play, you immediately claim it doesn't work based on an unrealistic hypothetical situation.
At least \take will need an anti-spam/flood system or all players will stuck with the minimum amount they can have according to the g_takeRatio variable.
This is prevented by the fact that a player cannot use take if they have at least their threshold of credits.
Note: I don't have tested the \take in a real game yet.
At least someone has indicated an interest in play testing instead of harassing me with fallacious arguments.
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Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.
That is the case only if this feeder is capable of feeding faster than the team is capable of getting kills and this feeder does this repeatedly without the other members of the team doing anything about it.
So what can we do about it?
Some noob is being a moron, what can we do? TK him? kick him? we need a vote noob that kills the players game and boots up there browser on the manual.
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Since this noob has to know something about take, it's more likely an intentional feeder than a newbie. I was thinking more along the lines of stab them in the face.
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I showed up on |SST| near the end of a game where humans were S3 and it took me a good 15 minutes to grab a luci while spamming Give Me Credits Or I'll Rape You When You Sleep!!!
Maybe /take is a good idea, unfortunately, it'll be pretty useless with a low value for take. Perhaps you should /take that much from everyone on your team?
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Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.
That is the case only if this feeder is capable of feeding faster than the team is capable of getting kills and this feeder does this repeatedly without the other members of the team doing anything about it.
I see a great potential with that one with a bind. /take 200, /buy grenade, /itemact grenade. Rinse and repeat as necessary :)
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you guys are missing the point!
/take will take a certain amount of credits, set by the server.
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I see a great potential with that one with a bind. /take 200, /buy grenade, /itemact grenade. Rinse and repeat as necessary :)
Damnit :evil:
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So what can we do about it?
Some noob is being a moron, what can we do? TK him? kick him? we need a vote noob that kills the players game and boots up there browser on the manual.
TK him? Kick him? What are you talking about? You don't even know who it is! xD
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TK him? Kick him? What are you talking about? You don't even know who it is! xD
Dun dun dun dun, fail!
It tells you who took your credits (and how many). If you even bothered to test it or look at the code, you would know that.
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TK him? Kick him? What are you talking about? You don't even know who it is! xD
Dun dun dun dun, fail!
It tells you who took your credits (and how many). If you even bothered to test it or look at the code, you would know that.
I'd luci his ass off....and then pay the goddamned retribution.
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Will we have a new version of this QVM? Or was it discontinued too?
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Hey I was wondering if there was a list of the Admin Tags for Avengers mod? of so could you provide a link or pm me? :P
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Will we have a new version of this QVM? Or was it discontinued too?
Pending any major surprises (e.g., if Tremulous 1.2 is released tomorrow), there will be a new release Soon(TM).
(I didn't see that question when it was first posted.)
Hey I was wondering if there was a list of the Admin Tags for Avengers mod? of so could you provide a link or pm me? :P
With few exceptions, the admin flags are all the same as tjw's (http://tjw.org/tremulous/ADMIN.txt). The exceptions are:
d - !denybuild/!allowbuild (now in svn), !designate/!undesignate (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2857)
# - permanent designated builder status
In the future, the designated builders feature will probably be removed (can you come up with a good reason for keeping it when denybuild is in svn?).
Don't be surprised to see !layoutsave (http://www.mercenariesguild.net/patches/?do=details&task_id=46) (l flag -- that's a lowercase L).
Also, unless there's a good reason to keep it, /take is gone.
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Can you add Share and Donate? I like this VM (If you update it again) better then Risujin's so if you update it I'll use it :D Could you also add mark decon?
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Thanks man
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Could you also add mark decon?
It was removed for compatibility reasons (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3498&start=30#49213). If it weren't for that, I would gladly revert those changes.
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awww.... I luv Mark Decon. I hate playing without it.
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awww.... I luv Mark Decon. I hate playing without it.
it is nice...
keeps people from TKing you when you start the reac move on karith
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Und/Avenger, you could add it, and just leave the cvar at 0 by default.
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You'd be my HERO if you added it :D Also, if its not too much trouble do the same for g_allowshare, if you'd do that you'd be my UBER HERO.
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You'd be my HERO if you added it :D Also, if its not too much trouble do the same for g_allowshare, if you'd do that you'd be my UBER HERO.
You could just get the code and patch it yourself. Then YOU would be your own hero. :D :D :D
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Be a hero man1
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Sorry, but one cant be one owns hero >_> Everyone knows that!
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Can you add Share and Donate? I like this VM (If you update it again) better then Risujin's...Could you also add mark decon?
You're probably more interested in Lakitu7's qvm (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4902).If you just want a bunch of cool features, this might not be for you.
Und/Avenger, you could add it, and just leave the cvar at 0 by default.
I could do that with a bunch of other things to. The fact is that marked deconstruction does not work well without requiring a cgame download, but some servers would turn it on anyway. Better to remove the option entirely to prevent people from shooting themselves in the feet.
ἣρως
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betaserv.tk/mkpdev.googlepages.com (http://betaserv.tk/mkpdev.googlepages.com/)
which one??? theres 4...
:(
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Use Lakitu's or any other recent one. This is 5+ months old.
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oh, lol, isnt there a new avengers mod?
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In terms of what most people are likely to notice without a new cgame, there are very few changes between my r912 release and current svn. In that regard, my last release is still pretty much even with everything else.
There is a possibility I'll release again soon. I just have to make a number of changes to my code for compatibility with 1.1.0, but I don't foresee that happening this week (and I might forget again). In the mean time, my r912 release works fine (with g_takeRatio = 0, of course).