Tremulous Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nosfore on February 06, 2007, 11:57:40 pm

Title: Rampage
Post by: Nosfore on February 06, 2007, 11:57:40 pm
I recently played on a server (I don't remember the name) where, at some point, the admin activated the "Rampage" mode. It's the same as sudden death, but upon activation it destroys all eggs/telenodes. Wich means you can't respawn if you die.

I really liked the experience. It's a nice way to end a game quickly.

The purpose of this post is to make a suggestion to the author of the "Rampage" mode. It would be great if it was activated when a map vote is successfull. It could also reset the game timer so that there would be X min remaining. That would give a chance to finish the game in beauty by having the score-board and the ready-thing.

Awaiting comments.
Title: Rampage
Post by: Rawr on February 07, 2007, 12:03:42 am
I want this on my server :D
Title: Rampage
Post by: cephas on February 07, 2007, 12:15:52 am
I'd like to see this as an option to end the game at the end of sudden death.  It'd probably be difficult to implement, though.  Sounds fun.

I might also make the suggestion that it make all buildings unpowered (no arm) and stop aliens from regenerating health (otherwise there'd be balance issues).
Title: Rampage
Post by: treminator on February 07, 2007, 12:23:56 am
Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
I want this on my server :D

Talk to Ghostshell over at dretchstorm.  He'll hook you up with this shizzle for rizzle.
Title: Rampage
Post by: vcxzet on February 07, 2007, 12:59:14 am
and where is the patch file or source code
...
Title: Rampage
Post by: Risujin on February 07, 2007, 02:09:47 am
Quote from: "vcxzet"
and where is the patch file or source code
...

Easiest ... hack ... evar?

See my !layout patch. Basically you loop over every buildable and if its an egg or a telenode G_Damage with MOD_SUICIDE the crap out of it ftw.
Title: Rampage
Post by: vcxzet on February 07, 2007, 02:16:15 am
Quote from: "Risujin"
Quote from: "vcxzet"
and where is the patch file or source code
...

Easiest ... hack ... evar?

See my !layout patch. Basically you loop over every buildable and if its an egg or a telenode G_Damage with MOD_SUICIDE the crap out of it ftw.

that is not the point
they need to obey GPL
Title: Rampage
Post by: IJsje on February 07, 2007, 07:51:51 am
Where did he distribute it then?
Title: Rampage
Post by: Foobicam on February 07, 2007, 01:49:07 pm
Quote from: "treminator"
Talk to Ghostshell over at dretchstorm.  He'll hook you up with this shizzle for rizzle.

They were also using the "Punish {humans|aliens} for camping" vote on dretchstorm last night.  That's not such a good idea as currently implemented, because the team with the most members wins the vote regardless of whether the opposing team actually is camping.

Searching the forum yielded no information on these commands, so their existence (as well as that of additional features) is apparently learned by participation.  I too like the rampage vote (as well as Nosfore's suggestion to make it automatic on map votes) and would like to see it documented here.  Rampage is not exactly like sudden death with no spawns, it also gives every player max evos/credits so even weak players get a chance as rant or chainsuit.

Speaking of ending the game in beauty, it would also be nice to extend the timelimit by 5 minutes if a majority of players on each team votes yes.  Timelimit is usually a mercy killing, but occasionally progress is being made, both teams see a potential win, and tremulous interruptus is extremely frustrating.
Title: Rampage
Post by: benmachine on February 08, 2007, 06:03:04 pm
The server commands alienWin and humanWin already kill all spawns for you, by the way. I have a !supersd command on my server, but then everyone just camps :/ I tried a !layout clear instead (lol) but that just failed to finish because there were no spawns :(
Title: Rampage
Post by: FooBar on February 09, 2007, 12:51:25 am
I'm not a big fan of Rampage, for this reason: Many alien structures are dependent on creep (which comes from eggs) for their existence.  If you kill off all alien eggs, you also often kill off 90% of their base.

Humans, on the other hand, are fine, because their extended base is supported by repeaters, not telenodes.  So when you call Rampage, aliens automagically have no base.  Unless humans are really weak, they can simply camp and pick off the aliens one by one.

So, yeah, Rampage FTW... if you're HUMAN.
Title: Rampage
Post by: n00b pl0x on February 09, 2007, 01:16:31 am
ok...i just have to say it...that shit is really lame. rampage and <team> punishment is just a battle of "which team has more members that arent retarded" if the other team knows how to vote, and knows which way to vote depending on the team, and your team doesnt, youre screwed. I believe it would be cool as a sortof "Final Sudden Death" but not in the current stage. It AT LEAST needs a 2/3 vote for passing, or something of the like.
Title: Rampage
Post by: +|MW|B.A.M.F.+ on February 09, 2007, 01:33:48 am
Yeah...
Title: Rampage
Post by: ::ThePredator on February 09, 2007, 03:32:46 am
Here is what generally happens in a rampage; the bsuits kill off all the adv goons, the bsuits get killed by the tyrants, the jettards fly up to a ledge and camp after the reactor is destroyed (where the tyrants can't get to), the tyrants camp, then eveyrbody is pissed because they have to wait ten minutes for the game to end.
Title: Rampage
Post by: n00b pl0x on February 09, 2007, 03:54:55 am
IF there is a campable ledge like that.
Title: Rampage
Post by: Paradox on February 09, 2007, 05:04:19 am
Quote from: "treminator"
Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
I want this on my server :D
Talk to Ghostshell over at dretchstorm.  He'll hook you up with this shizzle for rizzle.
I have talked to ghostshell, and he says "I dont want to share my mods with anyone else yet." Way to follow the GPL license that you AGREE TO whenever you play trem.

He also has a cool mod that shows the hp of the person who killed you, a la 
You were killed by Paradox|SST+Op|, who has 92 health.
Simple mod, but he doesnt release it. I bet one of the codehounds like Avenger, Risjun, or vcxet could code it in for us, even add a cvar. *Hints*
Title: Rampage
Post by: Rawr on February 09, 2007, 06:01:37 am
*pokes resujin*
Title: Rampage
Post by: kevlarman on February 09, 2007, 06:21:22 am
Quote from: "Paradox"
I have talked to ghostshell, and he says "I dont want to share my mods with anyone else yet." Way to follow the GPL license that you AGREE TO whenever you play trem.
first of all, you don't have to agree to the GPL to play tremulous, it explicitly states that you only have to agree if you want the additional rights granted to you by it that you wouldn't normally have (the right to views the source code, to modify it, and to redistribute it, in the original or a modified form, both binary and source). Second of all, he's only required to release the code if he distributes something, which he isn't doing since it's a server only mod.
Title: Rampage
Post by: Smokey on February 09, 2007, 11:31:36 am
But i do think we can all agree Dretch*Storm is a terrible server, full of newbies. SST > D*S :)
Title: Rampage
Post by: tuple on February 09, 2007, 12:55:36 pm
The HP of your attacker is bugged.  I've heard myself hit people (marine yells) who do not use a medikit and then kill me.  It shows them as having 100 HP.  That is a simplified example, but I've seen bsuits with rifles surrounded by dretches, same thing.

Ghostshell also had a thing where the scores didn't show until after the match.  No big deal, except on a server that size when someone yells "REACTOR DOWN" I'd like a quick way to see who's team that person is on.  Listplayers is tedious.  Throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

This is another one of those servers where knockback is so high it's silly.  As far as I'm concerned, he can keep his mods.  I wouldn't still be playing trem if it needed this much "fixing" when I started.

Can we PLEASE impliment R1CH's master server code that strips non-ascii characters from the ordering of the server list?  Maybe if all these operators weren't in such a pissing contest to get to the top of the list they would compete on the quality of the matches on their servers!  I'll admit that some of us may have had a bit of fun (http://www.mercenariesguild.net/base/Screen3.png) when it was first implimented, but it really is needed.

Anymore I am VERY tempted to put a servername that cannot be moved from the top of the list without a competitor removing their visible name too.  The funny thing is, I have a 10 slot server (which I would promptly drop to 8-6 public so memebers can get access.)  All these 30-50 slot servers displaced from the spot they so fight for by a 6 slotter unafraid of running without a name!
Title: Rampage
Post by: Lakitu7 on February 09, 2007, 03:51:17 pm
Pretty sure I've been told that the server name listing thing is fixed in svn.
Title: Rampage
Post by: benmachine on February 09, 2007, 06:32:41 pm
Quote from: "Lakitu7"
Pretty sure I've been told that the server name listing thing is fixed in svn.

Well, sort of... the 1.2.0 client will sort by ping by default, I believe. You can probably still put all the boxes in, but unless people CHOOSE to sort by name (and who would?) then it won't help much.
Title: Rampage
Post by: Stof on February 09, 2007, 07:00:34 pm
Quote from: "benmachine"
Quote from: "Lakitu7"
Pretty sure I've been told that the server name listing thing is fixed in svn.

Well, sort of... the 1.2.0 client will sort by ping by default, I believe. You can probably still put all the boxes in, but unless people CHOOSE to sort by name (and who would?) then it won't help much.

Well, a lot of people will. When your friend tells you to join him on the "Wonderful trem server", you'd better sort by name if you want to find it :) And the, if the server ops placed lots of stranges chars in front of the server name, it'll be harder to find their server then ;)
Title: Rampage
Post by: treminator on February 09, 2007, 08:02:13 pm
As tuple points out, many of those cool changes are bugged.  Ghostshell is compiling all sorts of new mods at once and some implementations are still very much in the conceptual phase (and might rest in /dev/null eventually).  Have a little patience and let him finish each one first.  No developer would release his code for peer review until he at least has a chance to close that last }.
Title: Re: Rampage
Post by: temple on February 09, 2007, 10:02:46 pm
Rampage isn't fun.  Its dicking around instead of playing.  Tremulous needs less goofy shit like this.  Sudden Death is a neccessary evil.  I prefer fighting to the finish, not beating people on technicalities.  

People support Rampage votes when they can't win any other way.
Title: Re: Rampage
Post by: treminator on February 09, 2007, 10:13:33 pm
Quote from: "temple"
Rampage isn't fun.

I'm not a big fan of it either.  But then again, I never tattooed my nipples either, but aren't you glad some people want to?
Title: Re: Rampage
Post by: Nosfore on February 09, 2007, 11:12:55 pm
Quote from: "temple"
Rampage isn't fun.  Its dicking around instead of playing.  Tremulous needs less goofy shit like this.  Sudden Death is a neccessary evil.  I prefer fighting to the finish, not beating people on technicalities.  

People support Rampage votes when they can't win any other way.


You're right about one thing. Voting for Rampage alone is really dicking around. But having rampage as a result of a /callvote map ATCS is a nice way to end a game... provided that the timelimit is adjusted so that only 3-4 minutes remains.

I hate /callvote map ATCS in the middle of a game.
Title: Re: Rampage
Post by: n00b pl0x on February 10, 2007, 02:46:51 am
Quote from: "Nosfore"
Quote from: "temple"
Rampage isn't fun.  Its dicking around instead of playing.  Tremulous needs less goofy shit like this.  Sudden Death is a neccessary evil.  I prefer fighting to the finish, not beating people on technicalities.  

People support Rampage votes when they can't win any other way.


You're right about one thing. Voting for Rampage alone is really dicking around. But having rampage as a result of a /callvote map ATCS is a nice way to end a game... provided that the timelimit is adjusted so that only 3-4 minutes remains.

I hate /callvote map ATCS in the middle of a game.


ok thats just about the only situation where rampage MIGHT be useful.
Title: Re: Rampage
Post by: Plague Bringer on February 10, 2007, 03:03:56 am
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
Quote from: "Nosfore"
Quote from: "temple"
Rampage isn't fun.  Its dicking around instead of playing.  Tremulous needs less goofy shit like this.  Sudden Death is a neccessary evil.  I prefer fighting to the finish, not beating people on technicalities.  

People support Rampage votes when they can't win any other way.


You're right about one thing. Voting for Rampage alone is really dicking around. But having rampage as a result of a /callvote map ATCS is a nice way to end a game... provided that the timelimit is adjusted so that only 3-4 minutes remains.

I hate /callvote map ATCS in the middle of a game.


ok thats just about the only situation where rampage MIGHT be useful.
I wish everytime ATCS showed up in the console as winning a mapvote, it should automatically do !nextmap when ATCS loads. ATCS is getting really overplayed and boring
Title: Rampage
Post by: techhead on February 10, 2007, 04:00:56 am
You could probably set up a server script like that.
Heh, how about no-one spawns anymore, and health ticks away 4% at a time until everyone is dead.
Title: Rampage
Post by: n00b pl0x on February 10, 2007, 04:02:45 am
that sounds lame. you have bad ideas.
Title: Rampage
Post by: techhead on February 10, 2007, 04:06:38 am
And about your ideas, noobplox I have opinions that I should not share in polite conversation.
Title: Rampage
Post by: AKAnotu on February 10, 2007, 04:07:15 am
does he even have any ideas?
i doubt that he thinks
Title: Rampage
Post by: n00b pl0x on February 10, 2007, 04:07:20 am
well then say them
Title: rampage and stuff
Post by: ghostshell on February 10, 2007, 07:21:20 am
Hi, I thought I would clear some air here. I don't come often to this forum so I didn't know all this discussion was going on.

Rampage is my attempt to solve stale games; when one or both teams are camping. It's by no means complicated or out of this world. And yes, it's based from alienWin/humanWin mods. I used to have similar /callvotes "humansDontCamp" and "aliensDontCamp" but they are back on the design table.

Rampage explained in our forums:
http://dretchstorm.com/node/64
Quote
Along with Sudden Death, our server supports a new game mode called Rampage. Currently Rampage must be voted via /callvote, but eventually it will be part of the whole SD + Time limit system. When Rampage is enabled, both teams lose all of their nodes and each player gets full creds or evos. At this point it becomes an elimination game where the last team standing wins the game. Team work wins here.

Some suggestions for improvement given to me:

   1. Rampage only allowed when both teams are Stage 3
   2. Countdown timer after Rampage vote passed to let teams prepare
   3. Eliminate the lower-scoring player from the opposite team when an enemy is killed
   4. Dont let humans repair / alien structures won't heal during Rampage


Please comment about this mod on that url as it's part of my server and it really doesn't belong here.

The other major change on my server is an Anti-deconner feature. With Anti-decon, each builder is the maintainer of the stuff they build. Of course, more logic handles the details, but that's the overall. This is my attempt to solve malicious deconning, which is a rampant problem when you run a large server.

Now I'm working on logic to monitor and punish malicious team-killing. It should be making its way into my server soon.

My mods are attempts to solve the (my) issues of running a large server: Camping / Deconners / Teamkillers / CPU Usage / Network.

About distributing my changes... I never expected anyone to see my disgustingly horrid code. Let me clean up the bugs a bit, add some comments and I'll let you know.

Please keep all DretchStorm mod discussion in our forums, there's no need to pollute trem.net forums with this. Thanks.
Title: Rampage
Post by: tuple on February 10, 2007, 08:28:53 am
You should read these forums a little more if you think discussion of a servers particular modifications would sink to the level of pollution around here :P

That being said, you are making modifications to tremulous, it seems entirely appropriate to discuss/remark apon said modifications here as well. :)
Title: Re: rampage and stuff
Post by: Foobicam on February 10, 2007, 06:55:53 pm
Quote from: "ghostshell"
The other major change on my server is an Anti-deconner feature. With Anti-decon, each builder is the maintainer of the stuff they build. Of course, more logic handles the details, but that's the overall. This is my attempt to solve malicious deconning, which is a rampant problem when you run a large server.

Now I'm working on logic to monitor and punish malicious team-killing. It should be making its way into my server soon.

My mods are attempts to solve the (my) issues of running a large server: Camping / Deconners / Teamkillers / CPU Usage / Network.

Thanks for providing info here and for providing the pointer to the dretchstorm forum.  That does clear things up a bit.

I definitely don't like the idea of tying structures to the builder who created them - there's no way for the builder to go out and fight and be replaced by another builder.   It might work if there were logic that cleared every structure's owner as soon as the owner spawned as a non-builder.  But you still need votes to clear structure owners or designate builders or denybuild to solve griefbuilding.

Retribution is a necessary part of the solution to teamkilling - I don't mind at all being TK'd as long as I get 100% payment in return.   If the TK'er doesn't have enough credits/evos to pay, the victim should still get full credit, the TK'er should wind up with a negative balance, and anyone who TK's someone with a negative balance would receive that amount as a bounty instead of paying a penalty.  I bet that would fix the problem.
Title: Re: rampage and stuff
Post by: tuple on February 10, 2007, 08:14:50 pm
Quote from: "Foobicam"
If the TK'er doesn't have enough credits/evos to pay, the victim should still get full credit, the TK'er should wind up with a negative balance, and anyone who TK's someone with a negative balance would receive that amount as a bounty instead of paying a penalty.  I bet that would fix the problem.


I bet it wouldn't.  If you want to play on/run FF servers, TKs WILL happen.  A negative balance means the money comes from where at the game end?  I already know what I will do if this is EVER implemented, I will TK all my teamates and then spawn as the builder for the match.  Give them money/evols to start the match ahead of the game and I build so what do I care how much money I have/don't have?

I think people need to stop getting so wound up about unintentional TKs.  You can build all the solutions to "fix" the problem that you want, but none will work.  Why?  Because it isn't a problem per say, it is a natural result of having friendly fire enabled.  If you don't want to suffer the detrimental effects of FF, don't play with FF.
Title: Rampage
Post by: Foobicam on February 11, 2007, 12:35:09 am
I don't follow - retribution (if set at 100%) is a zero-sum game.  If you teamkill a dretch or rifle, they get nothing because they cost nothing.  If you tk a goon, he'll get 3 evos and be able to respawn and get back to goon, assuming you have 3 evos to give up.  If not, the victim is (currently) out of luck.

This proposal would allow the victim to always be put back to his pre-tk level regardless of what the tk'er has.  It wouldn't allow a team as a whole to have any higher resources than it had before the tk'ing, and it wouldn't allow a builder to donate down to a negative balance.

Retribution as it is currently implemented allows aliens to devolve (just as humans are allowed to sell expensive weapons and buy cheaper ones).   Tyrant "A" asks player "B" (who has at least 5 evos) to TK him.  Player B does, losing the 5 evos to A as retribution.  A then respawns and evolves to a lower level, keeping the change.  This proposal would allow the same process except that the TK'er wouldn't need to start with 5 evos.
Title: Rampage
Post by: Raytray on February 11, 2007, 02:06:43 am
I think he means like if everyone is a rifle except for one luci-suit, there is no medi, it is SD, he has five health and there is an arm. TK him and give him 1000 creds.  Or some equivilant.
Title: Re: rampage and stuff
Post by: tuple on February 11, 2007, 03:19:28 pm
Quote from: "Foobicam"
If the TK'er doesn't have enough credits/evos to pay, the victim should still get full credit

Where would the credits come from?  If the TKer has a negative balance, then the credits have been pulled from?  the air?  This WOULD allow a team to have a negative balance if the majority of the team each individually has a negative balance.  You are doubling the amount of money a team can have, going from a $0 to $2000 limit to a -$2000 to +$2000 dollar limit, per player that is.

One player tks a bsuit.  Bsuit is repayed and purchases equipment.  Next player tk's that same bsuit.  Bsuit is repayed and purchases equipment.  on and on.  Where does this money come from?  How is it reconciled at the end of the game when everyone but one bsuit owes $2000?

If I turret camp and lucy spam the doorway, what do I care if you get TK'd.  You'll get repaid and I likely won't die cause I'm turret camping.  I can then sit and lucy spam the doorway without concern that FF will hurt my team, effectively removing one of the main reasons for FF.

Make it a 0 sum game?  No credit transfer, just compensate for FF?  Then why HAVE FF?

Humans already kill themselves to deprive the aliens of the kill/evol, using either a grenade or lucy.  With your suggestion, humans would tk each other to save those credits cause the TKee would get fully repaid and the broke TKer would just follow with a rifle :)  Should this take damage into account then?  This is starting to get awfully complicated.

You can't have friendly fire and not have friendly fire at the same time.  At some point you have to decide to take the bad with the good of the current system, or take the bad with the good of a new system.  The current system seems more equitable than any other, particularly with the existing retribution patches.

If FF bothers you that much, I highly recommend you try playing on a non FF server for a week.  It is quite fun and often results in more strategic games, cause humans are less afraid of traveling in tight groups, and the attacking humans don't die as easily cause they've all been shooting each other trying to kill the dretch flood among them.

If you want FF for the realism, I suggest you check out a sims game :P
Title: Re: rampage and stuff
Post by: Foobicam on February 12, 2007, 01:44:51 am
Quote from: "tuple"
How is it reconciled at the end of the game when everyone but one bsuit owes $2000?

It isn't.  But all that debt doesn't give the team any more power than it had before the tk's.  There isn't a team strategy that can turn the ability to carry debt into fighting power.

Quote from: "tuple"
If I turret camp and lucy spam the doorway, what do I care if you get TK'd.  You'll get repaid and I likely won't die cause I'm turret camping.  I can then sit and lucy spam the doorway without concern that FF will hurt my team, effectively removing one of the main reasons for FF.

Good point, although debt limited to 2000 would prevent the spamming from going on very long (from a non-malicious player).  I still think debt could help deal equitably with an occasional accidental TK, serving the same purpose as legal restitution for victims in real life, but I withdraw the suggestion to implement it.  An alternative, putting TK victims in a queue for receiving future credits from the TK'er as they are earned, would require more complex bookkeeping but would eliminate the philosophical objections to debt.

Quote from: "tuple"
If FF bothers you that much, I highly recommend you try playing on a non FF server for a week.  It is quite fun and often results in more strategic games, cause humans are less afraid of traveling in tight groups, and the attacking humans don't die as easily cause they've all been shooting each other trying to kill the dretch flood among them.

Most servers I play on don't have FF for structures or players, and I much prefer FF for both.  Not for "realism" (there isn't anything very realistic about any of the alien classes) but because it does cause both sides to be more careful in close quarters.  In particular, it discourages dretches from  blocking tyrants with impunity.
Title: Rampage
Post by: TRaK on February 12, 2007, 06:54:04 am
For what it's worth, I like Rampage. It's fun.
Title: Re: rampage and stuff
Post by: temple on February 12, 2007, 07:30:30 am
Quote from: "tuple"
If you want FF for the realism, I suggest you check out a sims game :P

FF is good because people have to actually aim instead of pulse or luci spam and pray they hit something.  I've played matches where humans get S2 and just spam pulse everyone instead of trying to aim.  In that case, FF causes them to kill themselves instead of getting cheap kills.  

Not only that, but when I play human, its tempting to just let someone go ahead of me and shoot at the alien coming after them.  Without FF, I can shoot at the 'bait' human and its doesn't matter how well I aim.  That's not fair to aliens.  With FF, the alien has a chance to allow the other team's weakness in aiming being a shield against multiple attacks.  

On aliens, its easy to play a marauder or even basilisks and glance evos by slashing in the way of goon or tyrant when they are fighting.  However, with FF, the marauder would probably die from their teammate and the human won't be 'ganked' as easily.  

Base FF is a must if you ask me.  Its nice that people can't tk the base to grief.  That's very pleasant.  But its frustrating in the course of a grief-free game to attack the human base and have people shooting a luci directly into structures to kill people.  Its cheap and take no skill.  You could make a bunch of specific rules about no base FF except for nades or lucis but that's avoiding the issue.   FF is a lot more balanced than no FF because there a lot of ways to play with less skill when FF is disabled.  

For aliens, base FF is very good for removing stupid building or feeder eggs (which happen a lot).  Also, aliens have to be smarter about where to place structures.  Its easy for acids to block a door, causing a larger alien to not be able to pass it.  I'd rather tk an acid than get killed or get blocked in my own base.  I've seen that happen with tyrants trying to leave an alien base that has a small door.




On retribution, I've haven't seen any server where you get negative credits or credits created to refund a player.  If get tk'd and the killer has no credits/evos...then you get nothing.  If they have some but not the complete amount, you get whatever they have.   The whole credit exploit potential hasn't been realized in my experience.
Title: Rampage
Post by: tuple on February 12, 2007, 12:56:02 pm
IMO, FF makes the game less balanced.  Aliens are typically played by more experienced players who are less impacted by FF, added to the fact that aliens in general are less impacted by FF (unless dretch FF is on.)  If someone on an alien team is TKing alot you can just stay away from them.  Little to no worries that someone on the other side of the room is going to try to shoot through you or take potshots at you for fun.

On the human side are less experienced players who are generally more likely to try to shoot through ANYTHING to hit that tyrant, especially when they learn that just hitting the tyrant can get them cooler guns if the tyrant dies! :P
They are also more likely to be momentarily freaked out by the swarm of wallwalking dretches spiraling in towards them (a particularly dreadful feeling when you just made enough for larmor and a helmet.)  Humans already start at a deficit in that they usually require tight teamwork to win and are populated at least partly with members who are new and don't understand the strategy of the game, or care to play "as a team".

Except in 2v2 to 5v5 games, losing a large alien to TK almost doesn't even bother me.  I can dretch out the evols pretty quickly.  I usually don't evolve till I have points to do it twice when in large games.  That way I can defend base if there is a push and I am killed.

Of course, with FF on as an alien it means that few humans get fully out of base without taking some damage so aliens get an even larger advantage there.

One of my favorite techniques is to jump through the middle of a bunch of humans, giving head shots.  They spin around trying to shoot me and TK each other.  I still get the evol though, cause I did the most damage :)  The side benefit is that the human team is less trustful of traveling outside of base together, and they can even get mad at each other for the TK!  I on the other hand, I go goon :D

FF is horribly unfair to humans.  Experienced players like it cause then they don't have to deal with spammed doorways IMO (a sure sign that aliens have camped a team of newb humans in.)  I can't help but wonder if it helps the more experienced of us that likes playing humans look better, I must admit.  Knowing how to fight the aliens 1 on 1 wouldn't look so dramatically good if newb teams could get kills without slaughtering each other.

edit: I mostly mean to say that humans are negatively impacted NOT in the TKs, but in the loss of health.  A naked human that takes a small bit of FF damage leaving base is a one shot kill for a dretch instead of requiring a minimum of 2 hits.  Thats one kill closer to s3 for the aliens, which almost always means the end of the game for humans.
Title: Rampage
Post by: daenyth on February 12, 2007, 03:42:17 pm
FF with SKILLED players is a bonus to humans. No, really. It forces large aliens to go one at a time, while humans just spread out and tear him up. If the alien's friend comes in there is a good chance to tk.


Of course, most games are not with skilled people... in that case it does help humans, but you really should not learn to rely on humans tk'ing each other for your final damage.
Title: Rampage
Post by: tuple on February 12, 2007, 05:20:56 pm
FF with skilled players means the aliens are skilled too, and don't get sucked into blocking each other or congesting choke points.  Experienced aliens also know to hold back until the human is killed or the other alien attempts to escape, at which point they move in and finish the job.  Skilled aliens wait around the corner (On the inside of the corner) so the injured alien flees around them and the human(s) follow(s) to come face to face with a fully healed alien poised for a HS.  

Skilled humans STILL cause each other damage.  The further from base they are when it happens the less likely they are to return to base.  Aliens damaging each other means they pull back and heal for a short period.

Incidently, aliens without FF STILL should go one at a time, or they will block each other and be easy pickings for the humans.

Additionally, I do not rely on humans damaging each other, but as an alien I certainly benefit from it and as a human I suffer for it.  FF/NoFF does affect the strategies you use though.

FF for skilled humans against noob aliens is definitely a benefit for humans.
Title: Rampage
Post by: treminator on February 12, 2007, 09:37:47 pm
Even the mightiest of Tyrants fall prey to a naked MG dancing in between many other Tyrants on FF servers.  1 evo for them, -4 evos for the dead tyrant, and -x evos for the TK'ing tyrant.  Net effect: -4 or greater evos for aliens.

Yes, FF adds a whole new dimension in tremulous strategy. :.
Title: Rampage
Post by: tuple on February 12, 2007, 10:41:23 pm
My point is that an experienced team of tyrants knows to back off and let one tyrant take the kill.  No evols lost for tyrant, one more naked marine down.  A very experienced team of tyrants will let the human run amongst them without even attempting to kill them.  I've been accused of running from naked marines like a coward, when I was really fleeing the guaranteed TK if I don't let the mara following the marine take the kill :)
Title: Rampage
Post by: Stof on February 12, 2007, 10:53:06 pm
Quote from: "treminator"
Even the mightiest of Tyrants fall prey to a naked MG dancing in between many other Tyrants on FF servers.  1 evo for them, -4 evos for the dead tyrant, and -x evos for the TK'ing tyrant.  Net effect: -4 or greater evos for aliens.

Yes, FF adds a whole new dimension in tremulous strategy. :.

We need a comic for that. There's that big room with a scared naked human in the middle and 5 tyrants surounding him. Next panel, the tyrants charge and for the last panel, you see 5 KO tyrants and the poor humans strugling to get out of that mess :D
Title: Rampage
Post by: treminator on February 13, 2007, 05:01:31 am
Quote from: "Stof"
We need a comic for that. There's that big room with a scared naked human in the middle and 5 tyrants surounding him. Next panel, the tyrants charge and for the last panel, you see 5 KO tyrants and the poor humans strugling to get out of that mess :D
I like your style. I'll email Tim on ctrl-alt-del and see if he can whip one up for us.
Title: Rampage
Post by: Rawr on February 13, 2007, 05:28:52 am
Quote from: "daenyth"
FF with SKILLED players is a bonus to humans. No, really. It forces large aliens to go one at a time, while humans just spread out and tear him up. If the alien's friend comes in there is a good chance to tk.

I definitely agree with you there.
Title: Rampage
Post by: temple on February 13, 2007, 11:19:28 pm
Humans can tk each other, but really, you can still manage to kill aliens without killing each other completely. I'll luci or flame around teammates because a little splash from a luci is a lot better than a kill for the aliens.  Of course, I'm more accurate than most idiots.  I don't care if someone shoots me, if there is an alien in sight.  I just hate FF when there is no aliens or the alien is dead or someone is just spamming.  

Armor greatly reduces FF, except idiot flamers or fullly charged lucis.  Otherwise, you are good to go with FF on humans.   Aliens, imo, have it harder because a pounce, slash, or chomp is like 100 damage upfront.  No armor mitagation.  

FF is just a challenge to the game.  Without, its way to easy to just rush and spam like idiots.