Tremulous Forum

General => Feedback => Topic started by: Odin on March 03, 2007, 04:08:10 am

Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 03, 2007, 04:08:10 am
Useful Article. (http://www.voip-news.com/feature/gaming-apps-voip-030107/)

As a former Counter Strike, Wolfenstein, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, Quake 3, etc, etc, etc player, I find the easiest way to communicate within the game is through built-in voice chat, in-game. Some may say that TeamSpeak is an alternative for games that don't have voice chat built-in, but I find it a bad excuse. What of the players in the game who don't know the TeamSpeak server, or don't have TeamSpeak? The same goes for me; I would like to talk to them, but not with typing. However, they don't have TeamSpeak, and rounding up everyone in the game(even the ones you don't know) into the TeamSpeak server is time consuming, and even then, you don't get everyone in. In CounterStrike, you can talk to everyone in the game with a headset. Issue commands, give information, etc, is as easy as pressing a button on the keyboard to enable the mic. You can even chat while fighting. In Tremulous, and any other game that doesn't have built-in voice chat, the only safe place you can chat is within your base. Otherwise, you're a sitting duck, hence the "typekill" problem, which can be completely eliminated with this addition.

Tremulous, being a game heavily reliant on teamwork, would benefit greatly with built-in voice chat. You could easily issue orders to your builders, and order teammates to guard the base while the reactor/om is being moved. You could alert your team that the enemy team has moved their base, or if the enemy reactor/om is down, or if the enemy is attacking the base. Think of the things you could do with voice chat in a game like Tremulous.

If someone is going to take my idea seriously, I suggest using Speex as the codec of choice, being free and open source, like Tremulous.

Please, this is a serious discussion about a possible addition to Tremulous that would revolutionize its gameplay. I expect mature and serious replies.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Caveman on March 03, 2007, 04:32:28 am
Putting the technicalities aside I see a huge problem.
This would only be feasable in areas that are large, like the US or Russia because of the language problems you WILL encounter.
What good is a TeamVOIP where you first have to agree on the language?
And even if you make it a server-rule to only speak one language, you will always have some that can't or wont speak it.
That in turn would require again some severe administration imho.

Then you have the problem of normalizing all voices, no matter where you do it (server or client) it just will not do as you always have some idiots that dont use headsets, have their voice activation too low| too high, blast you with their kind of music or in the worst case have their game-speaker blaring so loud that you can't hear your own game.

So I still recommend a separate VOIP when playing :)
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 03, 2007, 04:36:52 am
Agreeing on a language? You have to do that with type chatting as well. Not to mention the occurrence of that rarely happens. I myself don't go on servers that don't speak my language, because not only does it usually have a ping exceeding 200, but I can't understand the language, of course. This is server-based. Usually servers have a specific language, and tuning someone out who doesn't speak your language is easy.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Rawr on March 03, 2007, 05:01:38 am
Well, the first thing that I have to say is, I know nothing of coding.
This is a good idea odin, but the way I see it. If you have ever heard of TSO (team speak overlay) It will bring up a small window, probally 2in wide by 1 in tall just so you can see who is talking. In CS, its more of the XBL(xbox live) sort of way in game. When you hit white button, your name will appear to other players and you can talk.
Having something incorporated into TJW's system would be amazing. Running the !mute command mutes in game as well as voice chat.
Theres my one cent.
 :roll:
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 03, 2007, 05:07:02 am
This can exist alongside TeamSpeak. I used to use TeamSpeak to talk to clan members in scrims where alltalk was enabled. I'm not talking about a replacement to TeamSpeak, I'm talking about a feature that can allow everyone to voice chat, whether they have TeamSpeak or not.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Rawr on March 03, 2007, 05:15:25 am
Yes, I understand where you are coming from. Or at least from what I can tell... A automated "TS" which is incorporated into the trem server files. When you join human, it will automatically put you into the human channel for as long as you are in the game, until the game ends, or if you are a admin (CA or SA).
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 03, 2007, 05:18:49 am
No, that's nothing like what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about voice chat built-in to Tremulous, like Counter Strike, or Tribes 2, or Xbox Live.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Kaleo on March 03, 2007, 05:20:05 am
What I am going to do on my future server, is have a TS server running along side the Trem server and have the channel in the MOTD section and a message that comes up every minute saying what the channel is.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Rawr on March 03, 2007, 05:44:09 am
Quote from: "Odin"

I'm talking about voice chat built-in to Tremulous, like Counter Strike, or Tribes 2, or Xbox Live.


I was trying to say that  :oops:
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Taiyo.uk on March 03, 2007, 09:25:32 am
Language policy is a per-server issue, just as for text chat. !mute

Auto-activation would be problematic so use a PTT (press to talk) button. Think walkie-talkie.

I like the idea so long as there is a !mute_voice as voice chat spamming is far more irritating that text chat spamming.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Henners on March 03, 2007, 10:04:21 am
To be honest I dont really want to listen to half of the morons that play this game screaming abuse down the microphones.

Voice chat in games only works on heavily adminned servers or in clanmatches with a group of trusted friends. With a bunch of randoms it gets abused 9 times out of 10.

So I say for your clan matches setup something like teamspeak, and leave voice chat and the extra lag it can cause out of the game
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 03, 2007, 04:43:59 pm
Quote from: "Henners"
To be honest I dont really want to listen to half of the morons that play this game screaming abuse down the microphones.

Voice chat in games only works on heavily adminned servers or in clanmatches with a group of trusted friends. With a bunch of randoms it gets abused 9 times out of 10.

So I say for your clan matches setup something like teamspeak, and leave voice chat and the extra lag it can cause out of the game
As we said, !mute does the trick.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Rawr on March 03, 2007, 05:07:55 pm
My Idea  :evil:
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Henners on March 04, 2007, 09:03:28 am
But why go to all the effort of including a built in system when its not really needed?
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: holyknight on March 04, 2007, 09:25:02 am
I hate teamspeak.

And I won't be able to use it anyways, I have no mike :D

thank god for command voices. I always go "go go go" and "stick together team" in CS all the time XD
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 04, 2007, 10:42:07 am
Quote from: "Henners"
But why go to all the effort of including a built in system when its not really needed?
Did you seriously not consider the benefits? Did you even READ the first post?
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Seffylight on March 04, 2007, 10:52:35 am
F2
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Henners on March 04, 2007, 03:14:49 pm
The benefits are only really valid in a more serious game (i.e. clanmatch situation)- in which case there are plenty of actual "voip" solutions.

For casual play its not needed, and indeed I dont think would be a very good idea. And would be a lot of effort to code in.


And do I really have to list the problems with voip in games? It rarely provides accurate communication such as would be needed for tremulous. Beyond "attack now" which takes most people less than a second to type - indeed many people can type faster than they can talk, I would hesitate to give any instructions or orders via voice communication. Typing is far better as it allows instructions to be reviewed, and clarity to be maintained both in the language employed and also in quality of communication (i.e. no breaking up or incomprehensible accents).

Now as I mentioned before I really dont want to hear half of the morons who play speaking. The mute however isnt a good solution, as whilst I dont want to listen to constant inane drivel, there may be the odd useful or important piece of communication. With text the drivel would be cut out and only important stuff would be typed.

The examples of use you list are all simplistic things that would be better served either with the use of text binds or a built in radio system ala CS.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 04, 2007, 05:25:15 pm
Quote
The benefits are only really valid in a more serious game (i.e. clanmatch situation)- in which case there are plenty of actual "voip" solutions.
It is very hard to round everyone up in a TeamSpeak server. You get this instantly.

Quote
For casual play its not needed, and indeed I dont think would be a very good idea. And would be a lot of effort to code in.
If it weren't hard to implement, there wouldn't be a thread like this. For casual play it's definitely needed.

Quote
And do I really have to list the problems with voip in games? It rarely provides accurate communication such as would be needed for tremulous. Beyond "attack now" which takes most people less than a second to type - indeed many people can type faster than they can talk, I would hesitate to give any instructions or orders via voice communication. Typing is far better as it allows instructions to be reviewed, and clarity to be maintained both in the language employed and also in quality of communication (i.e. no breaking up or incomprehensible accents).
I have yet to play with someone who can type while fighting.

Quote
Now as I mentioned before I really dont want to hear half of the morons who play speaking. The mute however isnt a good solution, as whilst I dont want to listen to constant inane drivel, there may be the odd useful or important piece of communication. With text the drivel would be cut out and only important stuff would be typed.
How can he say anything more than what he'd say in text? Why do you think such games as CS are so successful? Free voip in-game.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Rawr on March 04, 2007, 09:51:55 pm
Quote from: "Seffylight"
F2


!passvote: Rawr decided that Seffylight voted Yes  :D
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Seffylight on March 04, 2007, 10:30:32 pm
Negative.
Negative.
Negative.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Mad_Joe on March 05, 2007, 01:20:32 am
I'm surprised that there is even a debate on the question of whether Tremulous would benefit from in-game VoIP. Talking, even if it isn't faster, it is more natural and makes it easier to demonstrate meaning (with inflection, etc. that you can't do with typing). The complaints about morons annoying you doesn't hold much ground... they do that with text chat too. You also can mute them (a good extra feature would be personal ignore settings). Tremulous requires much more in-game coordination than many games. Base moves, for examples, require a great deal of coordination, and in smaller games you need to keep track of where the tyrants, etc., are. If given a choice, I'd choose a game with VoIP included rather than one without. I see no reason for not having it.

However, I do see some problems. First of all, how hard is this to program (is it feasible)? Secondly, how many people, in practice, would use this. Many people don't have a microphone or don't want to bother to use it.

Regardless, if it is feasible and not too difficult to program, I'm for it. Even if not many people use it, one person on a team using voice over typing is better than none.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Plague Bringer on March 05, 2007, 01:24:20 am
Only problem, you wont be able to distinguish the different voices unless you're regularly on teamspeak with that person (a clanmember) or a r/l friend..it could get pretty confusing...i mean..i'd reather someone say HELP FOLLOW ME with their name infront of it so i could know who to help rather then hearing a random voice
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Henners on March 05, 2007, 01:58:35 am
Your answers show you have little real understanding of the topic and do little to address the points I have made so this arguement is rapidly becoming pointless.

One minor point though

Quote from: "Odin"
Why do you think such games as CS are so successful? Free voip in-game.


er what? utter bollocks. CS was popular long long long before ingame voice communication was added. I remember the massive fuss about it when it happened, and then it was barely ever used except by very good friends. Then a few months later all the clans I know switched back to more effective voice communication solutions. I've never seen it used effectively in a public server, but have had to mute people hundreds of time for spamming music or other offensive things.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Henners on March 05, 2007, 01:58:50 am
Your answers show you have little real understanding of the topic and do little to address the points I have made so this arguement is rapidly becoming pointless.

One minor point though

Quote from: "Odin"
Why do you think such games as CS are so successful? Free voip in-game.


er what? utter bollocks. CS was popular long long long before ingame voice communication was added. I remember the massive fuss about it when it happened, and then it was barely ever used except by very good friends. Then a few months later all the clans I know switched back to more effective voice communication solutions. I've never seen it used effectively in a public server, but have had to mute people hundreds of time for spamming music or other offensive things.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Rawr on March 05, 2007, 02:51:40 am
Double Post. BAN HIM!
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: holyknight on March 05, 2007, 03:05:50 am
Quote from: "Henners"
er what? utter bollocks. CS was popular long long long before ingame voice communication was added. I remember the massive fuss about it when it happened, and then it was barely ever used except by very good friends. Then a few months later all the clans I know switched back to more effective voice communication solutions. I've never seen it used effectively in a public server, but have had to mute people hundreds of time for spamming music or other offensive things.

NO.
I play CS a lot, like, everyday. And most of the servers people use voice chat and in other people's opinions, they like it better than typing.
And also, I think it's easier with voice chat because all you have to do is press "K" and go "A."
Besides, I don't care about these "new" technologies about stupid voice chat and crap... typing FTW!
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 05, 2007, 05:13:44 am
CounterStrike's built-in voice chat protocol by default uses a very bad codec that is bad for bandwidth and voice quality. I do not know if Speex was originally included when voice chat was added, which would explain the fuss about it. A knowledgeable administrator can switch to the Speex codec for better voice quality/bandwidth usage.

Quote from: "Henners"
Your answers show you have little real understanding of the topic and do little to address the points I have made so this arguement is rapidly becoming pointless.
Care to elaborate?

Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
Only problem, you wont be able to distinguish the different voices unless you're regularly on teamspeak with that person (a clanmember) or a r/l friend.
When you enable the mic to voice chat with, it would show your name at the side of the screen, to show that you are talking, but only on other players' screens.

Quote
However, I do see some problems. First of all, how hard is this to program (is it feasible)? Secondly, how many people, in practice, would use this. Many people don't have a microphone or don't want to bother to use it.
The fact that it is in many games today shows that it is not very hard, if you are an experienced programmer. I don't know much of the C language(which Tremulous/Quake 3 is programmed in), but I know some of the ins and outs and I know it's definitely feasible, and would definitely be a great addition to Tremulous.

Those who don't want it can simply turn off the functionality.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: holyknight on March 05, 2007, 07:02:15 am
Quote
When you enable the mic to voice chat with, it would show your name at the side of the screen, to show that you are talking, but only on other players' screens.

o yea, that made me realize. When people talk with teamspeak, you don't know who's talking and who isn't. So I had hard time figuring out if the person talking was him or that guy (names not included)
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Henners on March 05, 2007, 10:14:48 am
Quote
. I do not know if Speex was originally included when voice chat was added, which would explain the fuss about it


Yeah now I'm just laughing my arse off at the stupidity of such an idea.

 The fuss was exactly the same as the fuss you are making now. Not because of different better technology then. Exactly the same arguements which have been shown to be flawed over time....
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 05, 2007, 12:16:40 pm
Quote from: "Henners"
The fuss was exactly the same as the fuss you are making now. Not because of different better technology then. Exactly the same arguements which have been shown to be flawed over time....
What arguments?
"omg i dont want to have to mute idiots all the time wtf lol"
So far that's been the only argument, and we know it's not a problem. People just make it one.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Seffylight on March 05, 2007, 03:11:30 pm
F2
F2
F2
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Rawr on March 05, 2007, 03:36:20 pm
Quote from: "Seffylight"
F2
F2
F2

!mute:Seffylight has been muted by Rawr.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: kevlarman on March 05, 2007, 06:09:19 pm
Quote from: "Odin"
Quote from: "Henners"
The fuss was exactly the same as the fuss you are making now. Not because of different better technology then. Exactly the same arguements which have been shown to be flawed over time....
What arguments?
"omg i dont want to have to mute idiots all the time wtf lol"
So far that's been the only argument, and we know it's not a problem. People just make it one.
if you mute idiots all the time (and you will) then it will be useless for communication because all the idiots are muted.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Odin on March 05, 2007, 06:28:16 pm
Quote from: "kevlarman"
if you mute idiots all the time (and you will) then it will be useless for communication because all the idiots are muted.
Then by that logic we are all idiots.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Henners on March 06, 2007, 01:58:54 am
Perhaps thats is true. Its not any secret that many of us consider a large proportion of the trem community to be idiots...

Anyway voice coms give people an impulse to expel verbal diarrhea which they otherwise would not. Hence the little useful things they say inbetween verbal diarrhea would be lost upon muting.


Oh and another point occurs. Sound is critical to tremulous in order to judge other players positions and actions. Someone blathering about an idiot attacking the base could potentially make it difficult to hear all this useful information...
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: _Equilibrium_ on March 06, 2007, 03:46:58 am
Quote from: "Odin"
Quote from: kevlarman
if you mute idiots all the time (and you will) then it will be useless for communication because all the idiots are muted.
Then by that logic we are all idiots.
you need to put quotation marks around a person's name in order for the quote to work.

oh, and i think teamspeak is good enough. i just bind anything thats important. there's nothing like spamming "OM/REACTOR DOWN!!! ATTACK!!!" a few times.
Title: my $0.02
Post by: ethana2 on April 15, 2007, 12:19:36 pm
I use a Logitech PS2 configuration USB controller.  Having to use the keyboard to chat is horribly frustrating for me and 1 out of 2 times gets me killed.  I know that's probably very rare and maybe kind of random, but I had to speak up.

I use a microphone and headphones all the time.  And I don't spam at all, but I need to chat a lot, and most of the time when that's really the case, time is of the essence.  

Eman:"We have two Tyrants attacking the base, what should I build and where shall I build it to best work with you, who also have a construction kit?"
~The human base has just been shot to hades by the combined might of {tH3Hu|_k} and 5uP34m4n.
~Aliens win.
Eman:"Nevermind."
5uP34m4n: gg
{tH3Hu|_k}: 0wN3d XD

Yeah.  If I could do any one thing at all to this game, it would be to port it to open frag.  But if I could do any OTHER thing at all to this game, it would be to add integrated voice chat.  And that's the pertinent part.  The other one's not really a feature, so</rant> I digress.

Summary: F1
Title: Furthermore
Post by: ethana2 on April 23, 2007, 12:11:04 am
The voice chat can be added simply by integrating GAIM/Pidgin, if it was done right, correct?  The main problem with OSS prjects as I see it is that they don't collaborate as much as they could with other projects.

You guys need to be talking with the folks at Blender, Open Frag, Nexuiz, and Pidgin, at least.  Do you need a spokesperson?  I volunteer if so.  Get back to me, plz.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Yin Starrunner on April 23, 2007, 12:31:46 am
I like the idea.  It allows you to be more specific than typing WHILE moving.

For example, "There's a Tyrant coming to the base." takes about 2-3 seconds to type, which is plenty of time for the Tyrant to rape you.  If you could just tell them about it, though, while dodging.

Another example.  "Enemy base in lift room." takes a second or two to type, slower for some people.  Time enough for you to die.  Saying it though, takes up less time and allows you to dodge any incoming dretches or have you.

Good idea.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: SkaZZaTo on May 01, 2007, 07:50:19 am
I played many games, and I noticed that voip chat is useless. Only usefull for noobs or lamer to make some noise. Best use: play funny audio files in team chat (if you played cs you know what I mean).
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: holyknight on May 01, 2007, 11:41:19 pm
Quote from: "SkaZZaTo"
I played many games, and I noticed that voip chat is useless. Only usefull for noobs or lamer to make some noise. Best use: play funny audio files in team chat (if you played cs you know what I mean).

I agree. Even if they don't mean to make stupid noises, you still don't really understand what they are saying sometimes.

So what I want the most is the voice messages and you click to make sounds, which I think it coming out in 1.2, right?
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Flower on May 02, 2007, 12:26:38 am
I think it should be separate from the original client. It's already lagging a lot in most of the server, if Tremulous has voice conversation, it will probably be worse... Maybe a mod to automaticly join a TeamSpeak server or Ventrilo server, or any other VoIP program...
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Stof on May 02, 2007, 12:38:58 am
Quote from: "Flower"
I think it should be separate from the original client. It's already lagging a lot in most of the server, if Tremulous has voice conversation, it will probably be worse... Maybe a mod to automaticly join a TeamSpeak server or Ventrilo server, or any other VoIP program...

:o

What matter of black magic would make it lag less to use an external TeamSpeak client than to use one integrated in the game itself?
Title: Re: Furthermore
Post by: sleekslacker on May 02, 2007, 09:00:28 am
Quote from: "ethana2"
The voice chat can be added simply by integrating GAIM/Pidgin, if it was done right, correct?  The main problem with OSS prjects as I see it is that they don't collaborate as much as they could with other projects.

You guys need to be talking with the folks at Blender, Open Frag, Nexuiz, and Pidgin, at least.  Do you need a spokesperson?  I volunteer if so.  Get back to me, plz.


LOL

Do you even have the slightest idea of what Pidgin does and doesn't ? If not, then please do not suggest yourself as a spokeperson candidate.
Title: In-Game VoIP Discussion
Post by: Caveman on May 02, 2007, 09:52:14 am
You tell him girl :)
I am not the only one that does NOT want any IM popping up on a play.