Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: BeerBastard on March 07, 2007, 11:11:03 am
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Ok so there are alot of different opinions of what server settings are balanced. This makes it a pain in the ass when two clans want to clanwar and dont agree on the settings. My clan has been kind up to this point when we play on someone elses server in a clanwar we dont ask for any changes. This hurt us in our first clanwar because we never used friendly fire. Now we do on our own server so we have adjusted.
My question is can we get a "official ruling" on what settings a server hosting a clanwar should have?
Well good question but whats official? Perhaps a long term vote here on tremulous.net. Each clan can vote on each server setting? I dont know, any ideas?
"TREMLEGUE"
I am not trying to start any type of flaming wars, but I dont know if its a smart idea of letting a clan leader host a tournament(if his clans allowed in it). It would be like letting the NBA team hire the reffs and not the NBA.
"WHAT ABOUT CAL?"
We really need something like cal(from cs) if i understand it right they had set rules. And dont refer me to tremlegue because thats obviously not working.
Could tremulous go cal? If yes than how?
"SOME CAL RULES"
1. Everyone must demo the game. If any hack accusations arise. The demo of the accused is watched by a unbiased third party.(will be needed more and more as trem gets older)
2.Good sportsmanship
3.messaging, NO global messages. (no MM1) didnt know wtf that was before. unless between leaders.
http://www.caleague.com/?division=cso&page=rules#2.70
P.S. I posted it in general because i believe it affects more than just current clan members, It affect anyone who ever will be in a clan. Feel free to move it if you dont agree. Id love some Dev comments on this if possible.
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+1
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"TREMLEGUE"
I am not trying to start any type of flaming wars, but I dont know if its a smart idea of letting a clan leader host a tournament(if his clans allowed in it). It would be like letting the NBA team hire the reffs and not the NBA.
Currently, I'm coding my own ladder system for use on tremleague, a more tremulous oriented system. If and when it does start up, I will not be the only person running it.
http://tremleague.com/forums/index.php?topic=7.0
A Discussion on this very topic.
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I'm willing to be the third party who will watch all the demo's, to be honest, i would love to check them :)
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It shouldn't be too hard to make a cheats that don't show in demo's. afaik that how they would always be....
And rules?
Why not say straight trem 1.1 defaults, with no changes that affect game play? (bar maybe unlagged)
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It shouldn't be too hard to make a cheats that don't show in demo's. afaik that how they would always be....
And rules?
Why not say straight trem 1.1 defaults, with no changes that affect game play? (bar maybe unlagged)
Well, the way tremleague is going to take on rules is:
A guidline on what rules should be. Server owners will be able to modify the rules as they see fit, as long as the players are aware of the settings.
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You cant agree on settings and you expect to have a good game with good sportsmanship?
I dont think tremulous is big enough for a league yet, but when it is I would suggest it is formed independently of any clans.
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Well, I'm sure it's too much to hope that the Devs will do it.
As with everything, punt it to MG to do it, because formally they are not a clan. They're a team of super elite people who try to give benefits to the community.
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Aww, Thanks Ray. Well maybe not me, but a good bunch of us get stuff done, and know how to do it right.
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What's the big deal about global messages? They can serve a useful purpose.
And, if someone is susceptible to goading, why not have your team taunt them? If someone sends team messages to the world, fine. If someone doesn't realize a global message wasn't a team message, so?
So we're having a clan war... I don't want to see what you say. I don't want to see you. I have an idea, my clan will play on this server and yours can play on that server and we'll meet up on the forum to decide who won. Be sure to make demos, you hax0rz!
By the way, clan wars are about winning, not sportsmanship.
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without sportsmanship, no one will want to play your clan anymore. so how are you going to win if you can't play?
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It is considered bad sportsmanship to cuss or try to intimidate your opponents.
Sportsmanship typically is regarded as a component of morality in sport, comprised of three related and perhaps overlapping concepts: fair play, sportsmanship, and character (Shields & Bredemeier, 1995). Fair play refers to all participants having an equitable chance to pursue victory (Weinberg & Gould, 1999) and acting toward others in an honest, straightforward, and a firm and dignified manner even when others do not play fairly. It includes respect for others including team members, opponents, and officials (Canadian Commission for Fair Play, 1990).
(source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship))
When you are playing for the purpose of winning, you are not trying to make the game as fair as possible, you are trying to win. This means trying to always tilt the scales in your favor (e.g., ganging up on opponents, taking advantage of failed base moves or other screw-ups, spawn camping). Is going into the alien base when aliens are at stage 1 with a battlesuit and lucifer cannon fair? No, but it's a good way to win if it can be pulled off. (I'm not talking about artificially inflating the human stage.)
Character refers to dispositions, values and habits that determine the way that person normally responds to desires, fears, challenges, opportunities, failures and successes and is typically seen in polite behaviors toward others such as helping an opponent up or shaking hands after a match. An individual is believed to have a “good character” when those dispositions and habits reflect core ethical values.
Nobody does this in an online game. When you get creamed, you're usually frustrated and going to take it out on your opponent and when you cream your opponent, you're going to be a bit cocky. Ever notice that it's usually the winners saying "gg" at the end of a game?
Clan "war" alludes to warfare which is very dirty and unsportsmanlike. It is very uncommon to see a friendlier version like "clan contest". You will sometimes see "clan match", but that seems less formal to me. Even so, the purpose is not to have fun, but to be victorious.
n general, sportsmanship refers to virtues such as fairness, self-control, courage and persistence (Shields & Bredemeier, 1995) and has been associated with interpersonal concepts of treating others and being treated fairly, maintaining self-control in dealing with others, and respect for both authority and opponents. Five facets of sportsmanship have been identified: (a) full commitment to participation (e.g., showing up, working hard during all practices and games, acknowledging one’s mistakes and trying to improve); (b) respect and concern for rules and officials; (c) respect and concern for social conventions (e.g., shaking hands, recognizing the good performance of an opponent); (d) respect and concern for the opponent (e.g., lending one’s equipment to the opponent, agreeing to play even if the opponent is late, not taking advantage of injured opponents); and (e) avoiding poor attitudes toward participation (e.g., not adopting a win-at-all-costs approach, not showing temper after a mistake, and not competing solely for individual prizes; Vallerand, Deshaies, Cuerrier, Briere, & Pelletier, 1996; Vallerand, Briere, Blanchard, & Provencher, 1997).
Going to give your opponent a weapon because his teeth are a little dull? No, you're going to take advantage of it. You don't respect your opponent; you want to kill that bastard. After you win, you can worry about being friendly, but during the match? Hell no. (If I were in a clan war and my opponent was being really nice and courteous, I would think s/he was up to something, and I would probably be right.)
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It shouldn't be too hard to make a cheats that don't show in demo's. afaik that how they would always be....
And rules?
Why not say straight trem 1.1 defaults, with no changes that affect game play? (bar maybe unlagged)
Its harder to make cheats non noticable. Also for the easier cheats like(helmet always on) those show up in demo i believe. maybe even wallhacks do(not sure). And straight trem 1.1 is not balenced. Its alien stacked(mostly because of sd type).
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I'm pretty sure that demos are just what the client decided to record in its communication with the server. I.e., only what the client sends to the server and the server sends to the client gets recorded. This excludes anything that is only client side such as passive/informational cheats. How the client renders things (e.g., "wallhack") and what is displayed on the screen (e.g., custom HUD, radar cheat) are only client side and not recorded.
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You mentioned CS.
Failure
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Thanks Undeference, for encouraging the children among us to turn this into an emotionally charged battle of who can mentally damage their opponent for their own benefit in a game. :) Prepare for an increase in smack talk binds, as if that is needed in the public servers, which is all of them. Let the playground fights begin! ;)
If you watch the really good players, they are too busy killing you or your base to take the time to smack talk. I consider smack talk to be a sign of great weakness, the attempt of a lesser player to gain advantage that they do not have in the game.
Using words to intimidate in a forum that is not intended for discussion tells me that you lack the ability to intimidate me with your skill in that particular forum. It also tells me that instead of running to my base, you are sitting in yours, typing. The really good players spend their typing time communicating with and helping their team. Spending game time typing up insults for a questionable benefit is more damaging to your team than anything, and is often done in excess by kill whores in my experience. The "pwned" after every kill comes to mind.
I might add that I often see losing teams say gg, I dare say every game I've played except where the losers are crushed, as in lose in the first 5 minutes. A good game is a good game after all, whether you win or lose.
I wish to fail more miserably, so we should compare this with CS.
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There are few things I dislike more than people who take the time after every kill to make a snarky comment or spam a bind five or six times. Seriously, go back to CS with that bullshit.
Anyway, on topic, everything you're suggesting, BeerBastard, is what TremLeague is designed to do. If you want to get something like this up and running, why don't you just help out the project that is already started instead of creating another project that will inevitably fail? Also, no cheats/hacks will appear in a demo, so you'd better be sure that your demo watchers can be 100% sure of what looks like someone is using a wallhack/permaradar/aimbot. In any case, anyone who wants to cheat badly enough, and practices enough at making it look natural, will be able to bypass your judges.
As with everything, punt it to MG to do it, because formally they are not a clan. They're a team of super elite people who try to give benefits to the community.
Aw, how sweet.
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What's the big deal about global messages? They can serve a useful purpose.
And, if someone is susceptible to goading, why not have your team taunt them? If someone sends team messages to the world, fine. If someone doesn't realize a global message wasn't a team message, so?
So we're having a clan war... I don't want to see what you say. I don't want to see you. I have an idea, my clan will play on this server and yours can play on that server and we'll meet up on the forum to decide who won. Be sure to make demos, you hax0rz!
By the way, clan wars are about winning, not sportsmanship.
Global messages are annoying, and they start arguments/flame wars. Obviously you've never played in a clan match, so you have no idea how annoying stupid binds like "YOU JUST GOT UNDEFERNCED !LOL! NOOB" can be.
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I think your wrong about the demos not showing up. Customs huds show up on demo.
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No they don't.
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Thanks Undeference, for encouraging the children among us to turn this into an emotionally charged battle of who can mentally damage their opponent for their own benefit in a game. Prepare for an increase in smack talk binds, as if that is needed in the public servers, which is all of them. Let the playground fights begin!
If you think getting insulted results in mental damage, you're playing the wrong game.
It also tells me that instead of running to my base, you are sitting in yours, typing.
Spending game time typing up insults for a questionable benefit is more damaging to your team than anything...
There are few things I dislike more than people who take the time after every kill to make a snarky comment...
Global messages are annoying, and they start arguments/flame wars.
Where's the problem?
Obviously you've never played in a clan match, so you have no idea how annoying stupid binds like "YOU JUST GOT UNDEFERNCED !LOL! NOOB" can be.
Stupid, yes. Annoying, no, not to me. I just ignore it.
When your opponents are spending their time trying to intimidate you instead of playing, you admit that it effects you in some way and that it is more negative than positive. So, would someone care to explain where the problem comes in? If a team decons its defenses and leaves its base to go exploring, that is more negative than positive too. But are you going to complain about it or are you going to take the win?
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No they don't.
I saw a demo posted awhile ago of a clanwar, the guy used a custom hud(i think chompers) and it showed up on demo and people were bitching about him hacking.
Don't make me go through the trouble to download chompers, use it, demo it,post it, to prove you wrong.
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No they don't.
I saw a demo posted awhile ago of a clanwar, the guy used a custom hud(i think chompers) and it showed up on demo and people were bitching about him hacking.
Don't make me go through the trouble to download chompers, use it, demo it,post it, to prove you wrong.
Is that some new form of sarcasm? Smiley guys! Don't forget your mandatory smiley when posting sarcasm!
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No they don't.
I saw a demo posted awhile ago of a clanwar, the guy used a custom hud(i think chompers) and it showed up on demo and people were bitching about him hacking.
Don't make me go through the trouble to download chompers, use it, demo it,post it, to prove you wrong.
Please do.
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No they don't.
I saw a demo posted awhile ago of a clanwar, the guy used a custom hud(i think chompers) and it showed up on demo and people were bitching about him hacking.
Don't make me go through the trouble to download chompers, use it, demo it,post it, to prove you wrong.
Please do.
K im wrong, I found the post i saw earlier. It was a youtube video not a demo. But still having everyone record a demo aint a bad idea.
http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2376&highlight=chompers
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as I recall, demo's store all the settings you have.
So if the person who recorded it used a different hud, the it would show if you have that hud installed.
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as I recall, demo's store all the settings you have.
So if the person who recorded it used a different hud, the it would show if you have that hud installed.
nope
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as I recall, demo's store all the settings you have.
So if the person who recorded it used a different hud, the it would show if you have that hud installed.
Huds don't matter.
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I agree that everyone recording demos is a good idea. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't be so easy as all that to determine if someone was cheating.
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I agree that everyone recording demos is a good idea. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't be so easy as all that to determine if someone was cheating.
Perhaps a patch can be made to force all players to take a screenshot, so therefore if the screenshot is requested, it can be provided.
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Perhaps a patch can be made to force all players to take a screenshot, so therefore if the screenshot is requested, it can be provided.
And perhaps the hacker producing a wallhack will create a patch which disables it for a few frames when such a screenshot command arrives.
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The point is not to make an invincible system...
the point is to make the crackers work as hard as possible
in order to crack the system and to rotate the system
every-so-often so they crackers have to keep up.
Unfortunately, cracking is.. oh so much easier in an open source game.
The issues with Tremulous and cracking the client are the following:
1) The only system of protection is "pure check"
2) Trem is open source and thus easy modify and potential crackers
have alot less work to do.
I advocate that, if possible, some system be set up
which is hard to crack, gets updated regularly, and
it as easy as possible to notice as an admin if someone
joins the server with it cracked.
Despite all the the pervasive pessimism here...
something > nothing.
Remember, it's not about stopping them
it's about slowing them down and then regularly forcing
them to change direction so that it takes the maximum possible
work to keep a hack running.
- Clay[Born]
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That's like changing the number on your house so people who know your address won't be able to find it. The best way to prevent someone from finding your house is to never give out your address.
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"]The point is not to make an invincible system...
the point is to make the crackers work as hard as possible
in order to crack the system and to rotate the system
every-so-often so they crackers have to keep up.
Unfortunately, cracking is.. oh so much easier in an open source game.
The issues with Tremulous and cracking the client are the following:
1) The only system of protection is "pure check"
2) Trem is open source and thus easy modify and potential crackers
have alot less work to do.
I advocate that, if possible, some system be set up
which is hard to crack, gets updated regularly, and
it as easy as possible to notice as an admin if someone
joins the server with it cracked.
Despite all the the pervasive pessimism here...
something > nothing.
Remember, it's not about stopping them
it's about slowing them down and then regularly forcing
them to change direction so that it takes the maximum possible
work to keep a hack running.
- Clay[Born]
The point is to make the crackers work as hard as possible, not the devs. Making that screenshot thing would probably be much more work for devs than coding a workaround for crackers.
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That's like changing the number on your house so people who know your address won't be able to find it. The best way to prevent someone from finding your house is to never give out your address.
your right, of course. the trouble is that the game MUST send those addresses to even play the game. i suppose one could try to entirely re-write the net code for partial information transmission but seriously has anyone ever accomplished that? it's a true dev's nightmare... not to mention the game state hacks that tends to open up /swt
The point is to make the crackers work as hard as possible, not the devs. Making that screenshot thing would probably be much more work for devs than coding a workaround for crackers.
your quite correct. it is.. and always will be... a battle of work.
if we wanted to takes this seriously we would need a second team
of trustworthy ppl to created a centralized anti-cheat patch
system of some kind.
A screenshot mod is a good second best attempt in the likely event
that we cant' assemble that sort of group, but let's not cut ourselves
off at the pass without at least checking... there are bound
to be some C programmers out there who love this game
and aren't devs atm.
Not being an expert on the code, I have a question: for someone capable enough to break pure check,
how hard would it be to toggle a wallhack on and off as it receives requests for screenshot transmission?
(question: where did my sig go on this post,
the forum refuses to add it to the thread even though
it's in preview mode.)
[later edit]
one thought:
if a server mods in qvms that contain special
codes for screenshots capture etc... do they have to release
the code? they do right? it's GPL after all..
perhaps the server could rotate different vgms with
different security patches to keep people off guard?
i would appreciate input from someone who knows
the term codes and understands more fully than myself
the nature of vgms and server administration.
[/later edit]
- Clay[Born]
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Clay, your sig only shows up in your first post on a particular page (thread?). Enough bandwidth is used up on this server by sigs. Be happy they aren't repeated endlessly. There are some BIG ones. The sig, does show up, however, in the pre-submitted post, because the BB doesn't yet know that it's a secondary post on the same page (in the same thread?), because other people are also using the internet, and they may type faster than you. And be long winded, or quotespammers, or have outrageously huge sigs. Or such is my belief.
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ah so sigs here are configured to only show up
on the first post per page (by you)... fair enough.
that's all you had to say lol.
but back to the topic at hand... (hopefully)