Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: the_one on March 22, 2007, 03:54:42 pm
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I initiated a discussion on the irc channel about the Tremulous promotional video. The avi that the video is currently distributed as uses the Xvid codec for video. Unfortunately some features of Xvid are believed to be covered by software patents in a number of countries (notably United States and Japan). The audio for the avi is in the mp3 format. A large number of different organizations have claimed ownership of patents necessary to implement MP3 (decoding and/or encoding). These different claims have led to a number of legal actions, and legal threats, from a variety of sources, resulting in uncertainty about what is necessary to legally create MP3-supporting products with MP3 support in countries that permit software patents.
My personal opinion is that free software developers and distributors should defy the law and distribute any media that they can manage to implement using free software. If they can make free mp3 players, dvd players, divx and xvid players, wmv players, and etc, great! Moreover, several successful free software media players DO support these and other formats, and it isn't hard to play the Tremulous avi using VLC or Mplayer (both are free).
However, the leading free software distributors are of a different opinion. They are afraid of getting sued. Ubuntu is the most popular Linux distro right now. By default, Ubuntu uses the totem media player. Even the default repositories avoid players that use patented formats. You need to "enable multiverse repositories" to be able to install software with broad multimedia support. Maybe the situation will improve in the future, but until then, I think we should make it easy for free software users to play the multimedia of free software projects.
I've converted the promo video into a ogg file with theora video and vorbis audio. It is totally free of patent restrictions and playable on any modern Linux distro, including by the default Ubuntu desktop.
Here it is:
http://Mercenariesguild.net/files/203277
I hope someone (timbo?) updates tremulous.net and/or sourceforge so that this file is offered along with the avi.
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I can add that a nice side benefit is that the ogg is only 36.6 megs while the avi is 52.1 megs. They're the same quality.
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Awesome!
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this is only for linux?
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no!
its for everyone!
does windows have the codecs by default?
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I wouldn't be surprised if you could play it with Windows Media Player (try it) or Quicktime (try it) or RealPlayer (try it). Or you could just use mplayer classic or mplayer or vlc or any number of other players that support it.
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You can use a nice cross platform media player such as VLC or Mplayer.
If you want to play Ogg files with Windows, there are several other options:
illiminable Ogg Directshow Filters enable DirectShow-based players, such as Media Player Classic, Windows Media Player, and Winamp (when properly configured) to play ogg videos (using Speex, Vorbis, Theora and FLAC codecs).
http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/
There are also plugins for realplayer (Helix player supports ogg theora by default).
https://helixcommunity.org/frs/?group_id=7
Here are the ogg theora codecs for quicktime on Window$ and MacOS (including support for iTunes and iMovie)
http://www.xiph.org/quicktime/
A Java applet that plays ogg theora (wikipedia uses something like this for it's streaming in browser theora videos, in my opinion, this is better than all those flash based systems like google video and youtube)
http://www.fluendo.com/products.php?product=applet
Wikipedia offers more help on getting ogg theora working with your OS and media player:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_help_%28Ogg%29
Here is a short essay on why ogg theora is a good format for online video:
http://maketelevision.com/log/why_ogg_theora_matters_for_internet_tv
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Don't use ogg/ogm as a video file format. Matroska video is much better and more common.
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Don't use ogg/ogm as a video file format. Matroska video is much better and more common.
Matroska has some neat features, but it's just a container format. It can contain video in any number of codecs.
I'm not too concerned about the container format. Ogg and Matroska are both container formats. They are designed and implemented in free software. But quicktime is an open standard too (even though it is associated with Apple), and there are free implementations of it. Quicktime .mov container format is free and open. In fact, it is easier to put video of any codec in a mov container than it is to wrap the same data in other containers. Most containers require that the wrapped data be changed in some way; .mov doesn't. The problem is that the codecs associated with quicktime are not free.
The theora and vorbis codecs are the primary products of the Xiph foundation, and the heart of free media implementation right now. The fact that ogg is the container format generally used with them seams to just be incidental.
If you want to put media in open codecs in a Matroska file, go for it!
I haven't seen much evidence that Matroska is more common than ogg. I don't have hard evidence either way. In my experience, ogg is the most widely implemented free container format.
If you want to check out yet another free container format, there's NUT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUT_Container
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Don't use ogg/ogm as a video file format. Matroska video is much better and more common.
Matroska has some neat features, but it's just a container format. It can contain video in any number of codecs.
I'm not too concerned about the container format. Ogg and Matroska are both container formats. They are designed and implemented in free software. But quicktime is an open standard too (even though it is associated with Apple), and there are free implementations of it. Quicktime .mov container format is free and open. In fact, it is easier to put video of any codec in a mov container than it is to wrap the same data in other containers. Most containers require that the wrapped data be changed in some way; .mov doesn't. The problem is that the codecs associated with quicktime are not free.
The theora and vorbis codecs are the primary products of the Xiph foundation, and the heart of free media implementation right now. The fact that ogg is the container format generally used with them seams to just be incidental.
If you want to put media in open codecs in a Matroska file, go for it!
I haven't seen much evidence that Matroska is more common than ogg. I don't have hard evidence either way. In my experience, ogg is the most widely implemented free container format.
If you want to check out yet another free container format, there's NUT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUT_Container
Mkv is a better container format than ogg. Fansub scene saw that and although there have been a few releases in ogg format for some time, now nobody uses it anymore in favor of wmv and mkv. Mkv also has a lot more features than ogg.
As for the mov format, I doubt it is that much better or easier than mkv to use. On that point, I find the remark that the video has to be changed somehow to be put in any other container format dubious. All formats store video streams in exactly the same way, and the video stream is completly unchaged from what the codec produces of course! And besides, who cares since it's the encoding program role to place the stream in the container file and those are available and working.
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there have been a few releases in ogg format for some time, now nobody uses it anymore in favor of wmv and mkv.
WMV is proprietary crap. If you want to release the file as a mkv, great, go for it. Any open format is better than a patented one. I really don't see how mkv is more popular though. Ogg seems well supported by the tools I use (kino, ffmpeg, totem, vlc). I hadn't heard about mkv until recently. Also, a quick google fight:
"ogg file": 237,000 search results
"mkv file": 37,000 search results
"ogg video": 68,500 search results
"mkv video" 44,100 search results
I reiterate, I really care about codecs. The leading free codecs (theora, vorbis, flac, speex) are developed by the same group (Xiph foundation) that develops ogg. So that's what I use.
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so this isn't a promo video but an advertisement towards a video program?
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Next time you go slow motion, make sure you are specing someone who can aim.
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there have been a few releases in ogg format for some time, now nobody uses it anymore in favor of wmv and mkv.
WMV is proprietary crap. If you want to release the file as a mkv, great, go for it. Any open format is better than a patented one. I really don't see how mkv is more popular though. Ogg seems well supported by the tools I use (kino, ffmpeg, totem, vlc). I hadn't heard about mkv until recently. Also, a quick google fight:
"ogg file": 237,000 search results
"mkv file": 37,000 search results
"ogg video": 68,500 search results
"mkv video" 44,100 search results
I reiterate, I really care about codecs. The leading free codecs (theora, vorbis, flac, speex) are developed by the same group (Xiph foundation) that develops ogg. So that's what I use.
You can use them with mkv too. mkv is a video container file as is ogm. It just that ogm sucks in many ways as a video container format.
And besides, the goal of a promo vid is that we can get as many users to watch it as possible. In that case, I suggest a mpeg2 video aither in a mpeg file or in an avi file. That way, you get as many users as possible.
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You can use them with mkv too. mkv is a video container file as is ogm. It just that ogm sucks in many ways as a video container format.
If mkv is better than ogm in your opinion, then you do the conversion and tell the admin(s) where the file is hosted. (as I did)
the goal of a promo vid is that we can get as many users to watch it as possible. In that case, I suggest a mpeg2 video aither in a mpeg file or in an avi file. That way, you get as many users as possible.
I already showed through a quick google search that ogg is more popular than mkv. mpeg2 is tainted with patents. avi is yet another container (not a codec). I want as many people to see it too, especially more free software users. Since tremulous is the leading free software game, I think we would help the free software community by offering our content in the leading free software formats. That is my goal.
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Since tremulous is the leading free software game, I think we would help the free software community by offering our content in the leading free software formats. That is my goal.
your goal is not compatable with:
the goal of a promo vid is that we can get as many users to watch it as possible.
go back to slashdot.
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the goal of a promo vid is that we can get as many users to watch it as possible.
Then have lots of versions available.
A wmv for the windows user, and something every mac ever build can play, (mov?)
And then something like this, that's half the size and better quality for anyone with the brains to install the codecs.
Best of both.
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This thread is funny.
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the promo video was very well done, I created a derivate with different music and the text cut out. I used avidemux and audacity and put it up here: http://www.vimeo.com/799235
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Aw, if you'd waited just a few days more you could've had a year old necro.
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Aw, if you'd waited just a few days more you could've had a year old necro.
;D(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/DuelODDity/gunshot.gif) ;D
Have to love the recent streams of necroisms.
Edit: I do like the Vid though - I find it a little dark but its just how I have my monitor i think because screenshots from others often are a bit like that.
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It's a little dark, but it's ok. Heh, Tuple killed Jex there right at the end.
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I like it, can we get a full quality version where the sound doesn't suck?
Khalsa
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Khalsa: I think it might be a speaker problem.. no problem on my speakers, but sounds terrible on my headphones. You should try the music, hear if it sounds better in original form. the link to it is on the page where the video is.
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Not a speaker problem, when I listen to the original version sounds great, just that vimeo version has bad distortion. Can you upload a proper version?
Khalsa
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You mean the downloadable version (at bottom right of the vimeo page or at this link: http://vimeo.com/download/video:42773222) sounds bad too? With all the players you're willing to test them with? That's strange, because I have no problems and the file there is the one avidemux gave as output, so it is the 'original'. If you badly need a version of the vid with this music in a clear form, I recommend you download avidemux and give it a try, it's a very simple tool says me, a never-having-edited-a-video-before-guy.
You could also try to transcode the video to another format, maybe that would help but I'm pretty clueless right now how it's possible that music here is ok and on your machine is not.
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Before you raped the promo video, only the music annoyed me. Now I have to turn up my gamma to see anything, and most important of all, you actually managed to add a shittier song to the video! Congratulations!
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Before you raped the promo video, only the music annoyed me. Now I have to turn up my gamma to see anything, and most important of all, you actually managed to add a shittier song to the video! Congratulations!
You do it then
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Do what? There's nothing that needs doing, there was never any need for a new promo vid.
When 1.2 is done we will need a new one, but that can't be done yet as 1.2 isn't done.