Tremulous Forum
Community => Servers => Topic started by: rorio on April 29, 2007, 06:44:33 pm
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It's been my very first day on this forum and I'm shocked by some things around here. The worst is the amount of chauvinism. Such things can't be tolerated in 21th century.
The most outrageous example of nationalism is ban on sat.gnu for all polish ips. It's even more shocking because server has gnu in it's name, of course if you know what stands behind and know the gnu ideology.
That's why I ask the developers(or the main server maintainers) to remove sat.gnu from the servers list.
If you support my opinion vote yes in the poll.
Don't tolerate breaking human rights, don't be passive.
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yeah you have right to ruin others game
but others dont have right to play a normal game
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Can somebody help me out here? What is this Pole talking about?
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There are no such thing as human rights in Satgnuland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildebeest
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yeah you have right to ruin others game
but others dont have right to play a normal game
The problem is that I don't ruin anyones' game. You cant say what kind of person I am just knowing my home country! That's chauvinism! There are not better and worse nations. If you think so that means you are n a z i.
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Can somebody help me out here? What is this Pole talking about?
Pole? How do you know?:P
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It doesn't make him a Nazi, Nazism is an ideology, which stands for a lot of things, which attacking and killing tons of innocent people was a stepping stone to get to.
If you're going to be fussy about definitions of words, don't use ones that you don't understand.
We're not being nationalists by banning polish IPs.
We're being sensible.
We got a ton of greifers most of whom where Polish, so we banned Poland.
We also hand out exceptions to the ban for people who come to us and ask (Which few people do)
You, by the way, can never have an exception.
Not because you're polish, but because you're a tit.
EDIT:
Oh, and it's not breaking your human rights to ban you from playing on a server on the internet, fool.
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yeah you have right to ruin others game
but others dont have right to play a normal game
The problem is that I don't ruin anyones' game. You cant say what kind of person I am just knowing my home country! That's chauvinism! There are not better and worse nations. If you think so that means you are n a z i.
but most of the polish players caused problems in the past
(even timbo noticed the fact) moreover they let polish players play on their server on request , after the polish ban
and I dont know what you are trying to do ... satgnu is not around for weeks
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O' they also had me banned without even knowing anything about me... for the expection that I deconned, teamkilled and was general annoyance. Oh wait a sec sounds just like the situation with polish players!
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If you think so that means you are n a z i.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
Lock please?
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It doesn't make him a Nazi, Nazism is an ideology, which stands for a lot of things, which attacking and killing tons of innocent people was a stepping stone to get to.
If you're going to be fussy about definitions of words, don't use ones that you don't understand.
We're not being nationalists by banning polish IPs.
We're being sensible.
We got a ton of greifers most of whom where Polish, so we banned Poland.
We also hand out exceptions to the ban for people who come to us and ask (Which few people do)
You, by the way, can never have an exception.
Not because you're polish, but because you're a tit.
EDIT:
Oh, and it's not breaking your human rights to ban you from playing on a server on the internet, fool.
1) don't call me fool.
2) I don't know how you but I know what the nazizm and nationalism is and I'm not even going to discuss about it, see wikipedia if you have doubts if I'm right or not
3) banning people because of their nationality is nationalism(see wikipedai)
4) it doesn't make you any better
5) saying I'm Pole due to me being a 'tit' is nationalism.
6) you have
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If you think so that means you are n a z i.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
Lock please?
Ok, i know what you want to say. But we have to call things by their real names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU
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It doesn't make him a Nazi, Nazism is an ideology, which stands for a lot of things, which attacking and killing tons of innocent people was a stepping stone to get to.
If you're going to be fussy about definitions of words, don't use ones that you don't understand.
We're not being nationalists by banning polish IPs.
We're being sensible.
We got a ton of greifers most of whom where Polish, so we banned Poland.
We also hand out exceptions to the ban for people who come to us and ask (Which few people do)
You, by the way, can never have an exception.
Not because you're polish, but because you're a tit.
EDIT:
Oh, and it's not breaking your human rights to ban you from playing on a server on the internet, fool.
1) don't call me fool.
2) I don't know how you but I know what the nazizm and nationalism is and I'm not even going to discuss about it, see wikipedia if you have doubts if I'm right or not
3) banning people because of their nationality is nationalism(see wikipedai)
4) it doesn't make you any better
5) saying I'm Pole due to me being a 'tit' is nationalism.
6) you have
banning a subnet from which a large enough amount of abuse comes is a common internet practice, you ban the smallest subnet that covers all of the isps from where abuse comes from, which in this case happens to be the entire country. if you had actually read the thread about satgnu banning poland, you would know that it was because griefing became so rampant, that it was easier to whitelist polish ips that didn't grief, than it was to keep banning those that did. besides, i don't think the devs will pay much attention to you after you flamed the head developer for complaining about polish people
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It doesn't make him a Nazi, Nazism is an ideology, which stands for a lot of things, which attacking and killing tons of innocent people was a stepping stone to get to.
If you're going to be fussy about definitions of words, don't use ones that you don't understand.
We're not being nationalists by banning polish IPs.
We're being sensible.
We got a ton of greifers most of whom where Polish, so we banned Poland.
We also hand out exceptions to the ban for people who come to us and ask (Which few people do)
You, by the way, can never have an exception.
Not because you're polish, but because you're a tit.
EDIT:
Oh, and it's not breaking your human rights to ban you from playing on a server on the internet, fool.
1) don't call me fool.
2) I don't know how you but I know what the nazizm and nationalism is and I'm not even going to discuss about it, see wikipedia if you have doubts if I'm right or not
3) banning people because of their nationality is nationalism(see wikipedai)
4) it doesn't make you any better
5) saying I'm Pole due to me being a 'tit' is nationalism.
6) you have
banning a subnet from which a large enough amount of abuse comes is a common internet practice, you ban the smallest subnet that covers all of the isps from where abuse comes from, which in this case happens to be the entire country. if you had actually read the thread about satgnu banning poland, you would know that it was because griefing became so rampant, that it was easier to whitelist polish ips that didn't grief, than it was to keep banning those that did. besides, i don't think the devs will pay much attention to you after you flamed the head developer for complaining about polish people
I haven't flamed anyone, sorry, I'm just pointing out some 'strange' things that have been said and done here.
Using whitelists is easyer but is it fair? I don't think so.
See my point: I'm a good boy;) and I feel quite nasty when I can't acces a server because I'm Pole. It's very unfair and remains me things that the nazis did in my country. It's very dissturbing.
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I know that quite a few servers have placed subnet bans on many places, which include poland and amsterdam. These bans are because of people using dynamic IP's to evade their bans, if you want to play on sat.gnu then you need to post on their forums and say that you're ip range has been banned and that you are innocent, and they may possibly remove the ban and test if the bad person has given up by now. They have all the right to ban an area in which there are deconners/rule breakers/evaders and you cannot be angry at the server admins for it, you can only blame the person in your IP range who has brought this to happen.
From my experiences with being an admin on servers, the majority of deconners come from poland or amsterdam.
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I haven't flamed anyone, sorry, I'm just pointing out some 'strange' things that have been said and done here.
Using whitelists is easyer but is it fair? I don't think so.
is it fair to allow a server to become unplayable unless 5 admins are on at the time when you can do something? i don't think so.
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I know that quite a few servers have placed subnet bans on many places, which include poland and amsterdam. These bans are because of people using dynamic IP's to evade their bans, if you want to play on sat.gnu then you need to post on their forums and say that you're ip range has been banned and that you are innocent, and they may possibly remove the ban and test if the bad person has given up by now. They have all the right to ban an area in which there are deconners/rule breakers/evaders and you cannot be angry at the server admins for it, you can only blame the person in your IP range who has brought this to happen.
From my experiences with being an admin on servers, the majority of deconners come from poland or amsterdam.
In the discussion about banning poles on satgnu there were many nationalistic arguments.
The problem is that I too have dyn ip :(
Thx for a reasonable voice in this row ;)
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I haven't flamed anyone, sorry, I'm just pointing out some 'strange' things that have been said and done here.
Using whitelists is easyer but is it fair? I don't think so.
is it fair to allow a server to become unplayable unless 5 admins are on at the time when you can do something? i don't think so.
So do you want all Poles baned? Right? Poles are bastards, rednecks, etc? French/German/Chineese people don't cause any problems? Only poles? Untermensch....
OMG :cry:
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I haven't flamed anyone, sorry, I'm just pointing out some 'strange' things that have been said and done here.
Using whitelists is easyer but is it fair? I don't think so.
is it fair to allow a server to become unplayable unless 5 admins are on at the time when you can do something? i don't think so.
So do you want all Poles baned? Right? Poles are bastards, rednecks, etc? French/German/Chineese people don't cause any problems? Only poles? Untermensch....
OMG :cry:
right now the close to half of bans on US servers i admin are polish ips, i can only assume it's much worse in europe, if french/german/chinese ips comprised the vast majority of bans on a server, and they were actively dodging those bans with dynamic ips, like many polish people are, then yes they would get banned as well.
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This thread is the perfect example why poles are banned from SatGNU server, and why poles are disliked in general in the Tremulous community.
Also whining here and rolling in self pity about how you are being mistreated by the evil nazi server owners will not help you in any way.
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Well, I'm sorry but I'm right.
I have said the truth and, my god, what more can I do?
I'm really disappointed. I hope there's someone who gets my point. Someone voted yes, so perhaps there is a hope for the project.
Now I'll stop carrying about this topic, this forum, the community and this game. Tremulous - game for narrow minded people.
good bye and fuck you all
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15 posts, a couple of days here, and discussing an action to an event which occured before you were there to see the reason.
Sorry to say, but i'm glad we're rid of you, and I am one of the friendliest people on this forum.
Now can we just end the discussion about the polish, we've had it dozens of times. Feeding the trolls is getting old.
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Well, I'm sorry but I'm right.
I have said the truth and, my god, what more can I do?
I'm really disappointed. I hope there's someone who gets my point. Someone voted yes, so perhaps there is a hope for the project.
Now I'll stop carrying about this topic, this forum, the community and this game. Tremulous - game for narrow minded people.
good bye and fuck you all
go play NS, AlienArena, or nexuiz and leave us alone. Have a broad minded community there
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It's been my very first day on this forum
Maybe this should be your first clue that you don't know what you are talking about. If all you will do is walk into situations and act like you know exactly what's going on, then good riddance.
By the way, the forums aren't the only form of communication the trem community has, did it EVER occur to you that there may be something you missed?
Oh well, you can argue with facts till your blue in the face, it doesn't change the facts. Your countrymen have done you a disservice, we'll thank you not to blame us.
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Guys, he's gone. Thread is over. We can sit here and agree with each other all day, but somehow I don't think we'll get anything done.
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Guys, he's gone. Thread is over. We can sit here and agree with each other all day, but somehow I don't think we'll get anything done.
I agree :D
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But I still think that if you're a Pole and people know your reputation of being a fair-play & non-griefer, you should be able to request to be allowed into the server. I don't know how that subnet ban is implemented, so maybe it's not possible.
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But I still think that if you're a Pole and people know your reputation of being a fair-play & non-griefer, you should be able to request to be allowed into the server. I don't know how that subnet ban is implemented, so maybe it's not possible.
they did let known polish players
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Guys, he's gone. Thread is over. We can sit here and agree with each other all day, but somehow I don't think we'll get anything done.
I agree :D
+1
Lol @ dude talking about the whitelist that already exists.
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Good news for you: I've changed my mind: I'm not going to give in. You doing something wrong and there must be someone to tell you that.
You're problem is that you generalize: there is one guy from Poland and you ban whole country. Wrong! There are about 38 122 000 people in Poland and you ban them all because of a single guy! That's ridiculous! And you say "But they let poles in!", yes, but when they 'prove' they are ok. It's bloody unfair. You can't assume someone is more likely to do bad things just because of his nationality-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism.
I'm glad there are some people who vote yes in the poll. And they are right although they don't shout like you do here.
If you are louder it doesn't mean you are right.
I feel sympathy for some of you because you are unable or simply don't want to understand what is wrong in the way you refer to people from other countries.
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How long was it anyway, without any satgnu whines...
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dude servers are owned by individuals they can let you in or not. It is the owners choice. Is it better to make the server passworded and only let ppl who knows the password. try to think as a passworded server that polish players dont have the pass but some of them given the password on request
Get over it
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*random trolling*
I'd like to see you speak up for Britain, France or South Africa if they were to be banned from some server. My bet is you wouldn't, because you are someone who took offence to a sensible reaction to a growing problem. The fact that you conveniently discard the truth that SatGNU allow polish players who aren't being generalized in if they ask to be let in blatantly hits you with the troll stick.
I'll give you a strong image seeing as you seem completely oblivious. A certain group of people come to your house, act like assholes and generally make a mess of things. This happens pretty much every night, it may or may not be the same people.. but that's irrelevant. At some point you react and kick that particular group out of your house. Sure, you have some friends in that group so you don't kick them out and so they're welcome to return.
If you can't see the relationship in that image you need to take the stick out of your arse and get off your high horse. Neither are doing you any favours.
Oh, and inb4lock.
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good bye and fuck you all
THAT is a reason that gets ppl banned. Does it come as a surprise that it's mostly the polish that get hit, them with the beautiful language that is based upon swearing?
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good bye and fuck you all
fuck you too
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You're problem is that you generalize: there is one guy from Poland and you ban whole country.
You continue to fail to understand (or refuse to understand) that the Satgnu ban is NOT the result of one person. It is the result of an admin looking at their already created ban list (of IPs, I might add), a list created by multiple admins individually banning people when they join a server to decon or grief, and noticing that the vast majority of the bans come from a particular IP range. The IP range is unimportant, could be from Greece, Uganda, Canada, where they are from is irrelevant. The admin realizes that they can ban an IP subnet or 2 and their deconning and griefing problems will diminish considerably seeing as that particular IP subnet is from where most of their trouble originates. If a server is having a particularly difficult time with griefers then this is something they will look at.
Satgnu banned some particularly troublesome subnets that happen to be Polish subnets. Those IP subnets weren't banned BECAUSE they were polish, there were banned because those IP subnets were the source of the majority of Satgnu's problems.
On a side note, MANY of us server operators have experienced problems with players who originate in Poland. I myself run a server where groups of Polish players will join and begin vote kicking others so that they may have the server for themselves. I joined once to find them immediately trying to vote kick me. I let the vote run and when I wasn't kicked (I can't be, its my server :) ) I banned the lot of them. Did I do so because they were Polish? No. I did it because they were abusing a private server that I am kind enough to open to the public. This has not happened with any other group! I have only witnessed groups of Polish players doing this on my server! I have heard countless other stories from other server operators, sadly they often involve Polish players.
You can tell us how wrong we all are without bothering to investigate why this has happened all you want. But perhaps we would all be better served if you were to discover why so many of your compatriots treat the rest of us so poorly, and with such disdain.
This whole rant of mine doesn't even touch on the fact that Satgnu, all tremulous servers in fact, are PRIVATE. Their owners can do what they want. If they choose to open slots to the public that is their choice, as is ANYTHING else they do on THEIR server. You, or anyone else who bothers to complain about a server, are more than welcome to start your own server. It's free, so get started.
There being more Polish servers would probably serve the tremulous community well actually. Because then there would be Polish server operators who would understand how the technology works, and would then be able to explain to their Polish brethren what this is all about.
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You're problem is that you generalize
No, you are our problem.
It's bloody unfair.
'Elämä on.'
Still waiting for that lock. Or maybe you should add "satgnu" to the forum profanity filter to get rid of these threads permanently?
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First note: :( on my previous post being invalidated
Second note: I think this issue could be somewhat alleviated with a little better PR on the hand of the server owners. Instead of referring to it as a ban on Poland, if we referred to it as the ban on subnet 123.45.*.* (whatever it is) then people would be less inclined to feel that their nation has been insulted or discriminated against. People feel less loyalty to their IP range.
I realise that many of the operators may take the view that anyone who cares can go fuck themselves, but you have to admit it's unwelcoming to new, legitimate players to see such a message. You keep the ban, and the request for individuals to ask on IRC for whitelisting, but you change the attitude and feeling behind it.
For the record, I'm not actually against what Satgnu did, it was an effective solution to a serious problem, but still you can't honestly say you're surprised to see people taking offence, and I am just trying to accommodate them too.
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tbh I think if newbs get pissed of just by reading some topic, instead of the thread itself, we actually are better off without them.
Have a look at that Rorio guy. He is the best example for it.
Instead of understanding that it is a ban by ip-range he only ticks off on the wording.
I am not going to write here (again) the reasoning for that range banning :)
But if he thinks that those reasons were wrong, that's his opinion and he is entitle to that, no matter if it's plain wrong or out of ignorance.
So just ignore him, it not worth another topic.
He is proving to be a prime specimen of that ip-range after all, with all of the problems :D
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Sorry for telling you to fuck, I was very angry yesterday. If you don't want to fuck, you don't have to.
Well, well, well... I have said everything I had to say, your arguments are simply silly, the funniest one was about
Password that poles don't know
. So put a password on your server and it will be the same for everyone no matter where he/she comes from and it would be fair.
I'm not going to waste more of my time and I'm going to play on Tbase. Ask there If Marduk(that's me:D ) suck. You can stay here agreeing with each others. Servers like satgnu sentence them selves to being ignored and so do you. Actions like the one on the infamous sat gnu are nationalistic. That's the fact.
Ahh, I would forget: I'm not against discriminating Poles, I'm against any form of discrimination concerning any nation or any people.
You don't ban any subnet only all ips that come from Poland. Read the post by cavemen. In Poland there are more than one internet provider, so If you don't want someone with dynip to vandalise the most restrictive thing you can do is banning one provider's subnet.
You assume everything I say is pointless. Try to use your head and feel like you were in my shoes: I can't access some servers because I'm Pole, not because my net provider is tpsa(polish biggest provider). And that's the problem. F**k. Don't tell me it's not a national discrimination. See http://ip-to-country.webhosting.info/downloads/ip-to-country.csv.zip
Yes, I'm doing a mess here, I react very emotionally but I just can't tolerate such things taking place in 21th century and concerning open source. Don't you see any analogy between banning Poles to use some 'devices' and Jews in Germany after 1933 banned from going to parks etc, or Afroamericans banned from using public transport? I do and it hurts me, not because it concerns me personally, but because it's nazi like practice. Haven't you forgotten how it can end?
I know some Polish players are trouble makers, and I deprecate them. , but don't make every Pole
a hooligan. Fight with individuals not the whole nation.
Don't be hate blinded and narrow minded.
Best wishes, Kubuś vel rorio vel Marduk vel tit :*
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who ever said life was fair lied to you.
its their sever, they can do fuck all they want to do with it.
don't like it, play somewhere else or make your own server.
just because you don't like it doesn't mean the rest of us cant like it.
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Well, I'm sorry but I'm right.
I have said the truth and, my god, what more can I do?
You can visit the morons who got your provider banned and deliver them our greetings, preferably using heavy blunt object.
BTW, I'm admin on KOCOUR-CZ (four Czech Tremulous servers) and we too had to ban Neostrada ADSL because a bunch of morons kept coming back abusing dynamic IPs to decon. We DID notify the ISP about abuse but there was no response, hence a ban. So please go ahead and file an official complaint to your ISP that you cannot access some network services because some other customers abused dynamic IPs and caused ISP-wide ban. The more complaints the better. If it doesn't help, find a provider that will take care of abusers on their own.
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I'm going to do this one last time since I'm bored and the words I write will still be dismissed by you.
Sorry for telling you to fuck, I was very angry yesterday. If you don't want to fuck, you don't have to.
Very nice of course.
Well, well, well... I have said everything I had to say, your arguments are simply silly, the funniest one was about
Password that poles don't know
. So put a password on your server and it will be the same for everyone no matter where he/she comes from and it would be fair.
It was just an analogy. And that password on that server would make it Private like he said. But some private servers open up slots to the public as a service. When that service gets abused by certain groups those groups are banned because other groups might use them more wisely.
I'm not going to waste more of my time and I'm going to play on Tbase. Ask there If Marduk(that's me:D ) suck. You can stay here agreeing with each others. Servers like satgnu sentence them selves to being ignored and so do you. Actions like the one on the infamous sat gnu are nationalistic. That's the fact.
They are targeting a focus group. The problem came from so many Poles that it just wasn't possible to keep up banning all of the troublemakers on time so noone else's game would be ruined.
You can read the examples. There was a lot of kurwa kurwa, so much even that some servers still ban that word. They haven't banned fuck or anything just the incredibly overused kurwa.
Also I presume you have read tuple's post. He states a common problem back then which was hostile server takeover by the vote system. A large group could kick all other players.
But remarkably only one common denomitar could be discovered for groups that did that. And it was that all the players doing the takeover came from Polish ips. No other groups did this as widespread as the Poles. There's a fair number of dutchos, germans and other nationalities playing yet they didn't do that so regularly that it could even be noted.
When the Polish subnet was banned on some euro servers it seems they shifted to the us side with higher ping.
Ahh, I would forget: I'm not against discriminating Poles, I'm against any form of discrimination concerning any nation or any people.
You don't ban any subnet only all ips that come from Poland. Read the post by cavemen. In Poland there are more than one internet provider, so If you don't want someone with dynip to vandalise the most restrictive thing you can do is banning one provider's subnet.
I can imagine there being only several major providers. It is very likely that griefers are using internet from those providers. And you only need to ban like 3 of the main isps to block 80% of the people. This is true for just about any country.
That is why it actually isn't a surprise that so many poles are banned. I would bet that some very small polish providers haven't been banned, even by satgnu. Why? Because there are no griefers coming from those nets.
You assume everything I say is pointless. Try to use your head and feel like you were in my shoes: I can't access some servers because I'm Pole, not because my net provider is tpsa(polish biggest provider). And that's the problem. F**k. Don't tell me it's not a national discrimination.
Let us correct that sentence.
You cannot acces some servers because a subnet belonging to the majority of a country was banned due to the disproportionate griefing of a certain group of people coming from that country.
If it were germans, germany would have been banned; if it were dutchos, the dutch would be banned. But it was the Poles, and the Poles got banned.
Yes, I'm doing a mess here, I react very emotionally but I just can't tolerate such things taking place in 21th century and concerning open source. Don't you see any analogy between banning Poles to use some 'devices' and Jews in Germany after 1933 banned from going to parks etc, or Afroamericans banned from using public transport? I do and it hurts me, not because it concerns me personally, but because it's nazi like practice. Haven't you forgotten how it can end?
This is the internet, this is going very far. Since one was instigated by government due to ideology and the need of a scapegoat while the other is instigated by private owners of servers due to statistical analysis of the bans already put in place.
How it ends is like this. People like you whining because they do not understand or are willing to understand the cause of this action.
I know some Polish players are trouble makers, and I deprecate them. , but don't make every Pole a hooligan. Fight with individuals not the whole nation.
Server owners pay to play, not ban people all day long.
Don't be hate blinded and narrow minded.
Same goes for you. Accept it.
Now where is my 'I fed the troll' button >:E
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Sorry for telling you to fuck, I was very angry yesterday. If you don't want to fuck, you don't have to.
Well, well, well... I have said everything I had to say, your arguments are simply silly, the funniest one was about
Password that poles don't know
. So put a password on your server and it will be the same for everyone no matter where he/she comes from and it would be fair.
I'm not going to waste more of my time and I'm going to play on Tbase. Ask there If Marduk(that's me:D ) suck. You can stay here agreeing with each others. Servers like satgnu sentence them selves to being ignored and so do you. Actions like the one on the infamous sat gnu are nationalistic. That's the fact.
Ahh, I would forget: I'm not against discriminating Poles, I'm against any form of discrimination concerning any nation or any people.
You don't ban any subnet only all ips that come from Poland. Read the post by cavemen. In Poland there are more than one internet provider, so If you don't want someone with dynip to vandalise the most restrictive thing you can do is banning one provider's subnet.
You assume everything I say is pointless. Try to use your head and feel like you were in my shoes: I can't access some servers because I'm Pole, not because my net provider is tpsa(polish biggest provider). And that's the problem. F**k. Don't tell me it's not a national discrimination. See http://ip-to-country.webhosting.info/downloads/ip-to-country.csv.zip
Yes, I'm doing a mess here, I react very emotionally but I just can't tolerate such things taking place in 21th century and concerning open source. Don't you see any analogy between banning Poles to use some 'devices' and Jews in Germany after 1933 banned from going to parks etc, or Afroamericans banned from using public transport? I do and it hurts me, not because it concerns me personally, but because it's nazi like practice. Haven't you forgotten how it can end?
I know some Polish players are trouble makers, and I deprecate them. , but don't make every Pole
a hooligan. Fight with individuals not the whole nation.
Don't be hate blinded and narrow minded.
Best wishes, Kubuś vel rorio vel Marduk vel tit :*
how can you be so thick? this has nothing to do with what the germans did. it's how the internet works, you get abuse from an ip, you ban that ip, you get abuse from another ip in the same subnet, you ban the new ip, if you keep getting a large amount of abuse from that subnet, you ban the whole subnet.
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omg
Poles, Poles, Poles... find another topic ;s isnt that god damn borin?
and btw - SatGNU was a very good server for playin and ive been choosin it mostly until they tried to test new SVN :P (niveus 4ever)
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Kevlar, Survivor, don't feed him further...
...
He is proving to be a prime specimen of that ip-range after all, with all of the problems :D
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Well, I'm sorry but I'm right.
I have said the truth and, my god, what more can I do?
You can visit the morons who got your provider banned and deliver them our greetings, preferably using heavy blunt object.
BTW, I'm admin on KOCOUR-CZ (four Czech Tremulous servers) and we too had to ban Neostrada ADSL because a bunch of morons kept coming back abusing dynamic IPs to decon. We DID notify the ISP about abuse but there was no response, hence a ban. So please go ahead and file an official complaint to your ISP that you cannot access some network services because some other customers abused dynamic IPs and caused ISP-wide ban. The more complaints the better. If it doesn't help, find a provider that will take care of abusers on their own.
You did right thing because you banned neostrada only. That's fair.
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Kevlar, Survivor, don't feed him further...
...
He is proving to be a prime specimen of that ip-range after all, with all of the problems :D
I'm bored and I really need my toys. :(
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@ Survivor:
Somehow servers like twins deal with vandalism without banning any subnets. Only a bit of good will is needed to deal with the problem. If you are lazy you will ban all polish subnets, otherwise only those of them that are used by abusers. Simple.
Another thing is that in 99% of cases ban is temporary. On satgnu it was permanent.
Last problem is that you say about Poles, not about users of 'neostrada', 'dialnet' or other net providers and by doing so you give to such ban a national background.
Nazis did the same thing: some Jewish were communists, the nazis(not only Germans) being narrow minded generalized that and said "Every Jew is a communist", of course apart from that they have discovered many other 'reasons' for persecuting Jews. Do you understand me so far? Ok, so: now some persons lake Cavemen discovered some Polish players misbehave on some servers. His silly reasoning made him think "Every Pole is a lame". Do you see the analogy now?
I don't beg you to unban me on gnunet or any server discriminating polish ips, I simply want to say there are people that are personally abused by such actions.
Don't blame me for level of this discussion: I haven't started abusing people. I don't look down on anyone.
I'm Pole and I simply dislike being judged by people only because of this. Doing that is nationalism. It's bad you don't realize that, any way reaction of some ppl here has confirmed this.
Am I clear?
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As opposed to us, we got you the first time around.
You can stop now and get back under your rock.
You just Ignore any reasonable explanation that was given and carry on your crusade against satgnu.
Either get a life or educate the ppl on the banned range.
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You did right thing because you banned neostrada only. That's fair.
Rorio, I can see why you are offended. People get annoyed by these threads because it's been beaten to death, and some react by generalizing.
You might think this is wrong, but this is the way the human mind works. We think in probabilities; if a lot of people from a certain group has been griefing, we conclude that the rest of the people from that group has a high probability of being griefers.
An analogy: most grass I've seen is green. Therefore I think green when I hear or read the word grass; but not all grass is green, and I know that. Therefore my reasoning is valid.
A relevant example: in my experience a lot of people who state their country in their name (for example cz, uk, dk, pl, us) are ill behavioured. They swear, spam, decon and/or tk. The only thing these people have in common is their behaviour and that they have a country tag. So I associate country tags with ill behavioured people, even though I also know a couple of nice people that have country tags.
I have no clue how the two things could be related, but they seem to be, based on my own imperical observations. As long as I keep in mind that there are always exceptions, this logic isn't really flawed. You do the same, I assure you; not just for people but for anything.
Banning subnets is a generalization, and whitelisting is accepting that there are exceptions. I think this is the only practical way, even if it comes at the cost of some collateral damage.
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For gods sake noone tell him that LOTS of email servers ban all of china to cut down on the crazy amount of spam that gets sent from there, it may trigger the 3rd world war! :P
You are now welcome to do anything you want with your server, as long as rorio is ok with it.
Rorio, You are actually dense enough to compare someone who donates server slots from a server that THEY OWN to whom they choose, to the Nazis. Seriously, that's like comparing me to the nazi's cause I kicked your family out when only one or two of them were breaking my dishes. Get a clue. Please! Get SOME idea of how the internet ACTUALLY works and then come bother us.
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You are now welcome to do anything you want with your server, as long as rorio is ok with it.
Don't get me started on the owner's right to handle his server as he sees fit :D
Or to put it bluntly, let that moron come knocking on my door, my wolf will be happy to have breakfast.
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Ok rorio........ you're right. Now shut the fuck up because whether Satgnu is right or wrong for banning all the poles.. NOTHING WILL CHANGE
-You're right it's not fair, learn to fucking deal with it.
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You are now welcome to do anything you want with your server, as long as rorio is ok with it.
Don't get me started on the owner's right to handle his server as he sees fit :D
Or to put it bluntly, let that moron come knocking on my door, my wolf will be happy to have breakfast.
what if he comes at night
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No matter the time, it _IS_ breakfast time :P
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Second note: I think this issue could be somewhat alleviated with a little better PR on the hand of the server owners. Instead of referring to it as a ban on Poland, if we referred to it as the ban on subnet 123.45.*.* (whatever it is) then people would be less inclined to feel that their nation has been insulted or discriminated against. People feel less loyalty to their IP range.
I realise that many of the operators may take the view that anyone who cares can go fuck themselves, but you have to admit it's unwelcoming to new, legitimate players to see such a message. You keep the ban, and the request for individuals to ask on IRC for whitelisting, but you change the attitude and feeling behind it.
For the record, I'm not actually against what Satgnu did, it was an effective solution to a serious problem, but still you can't honestly say you're surprised to see people taking offence, and I am just trying to accommodate them too.
I so agree with this. I like how these (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3484) guys handled it, saves so much trouble. Well put.
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If you think that all grass is green it cannot be valid, some species have different colours -> error, kernel panic. Stereotypes are bad for you.
I know how the net works, but in contrast to some of you I also know how people 'work'. I understand that banning polish ips permanently is a solution to some problems but it's the worst one possible. Do you agree? I think we need to find a better solution to vandalism, that would allow 'normal' people to enjoy tremulous, no matter where they live. Agree? Try to cool down (as I did) and think how would you feel being unable to play a game (that's even open source) because you live in a certain country and being treated like lama or someone worse than others just because of your nationality.
Can somebody help me out here? What is this Pole talking about?
<- when I read this post I felt like 'Pole' was a invective.
That really sucks. Try to open up your minds and understand my point. From now on try to forget about all stereotypes.
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how would you feel being unable to play a game (that's even open source) because you live in a certain country
All together now everyone:
start your own server then!
Can you possibly dramatize this more? Are you no longer allowed to play tremulous? Is there not 150 other servers?
when I read this post I felt like 'Pole' was a invective.
See, here we find the crux of the problem, it's a personal problem. Pole's are Poles, Swedes are Swedes, Americans are Imperialist :P (actually, I refer to myself as a mutt), French are French. If you want to feel as if the world is talking down to you, then you will continue to see situations in this light. The person who said what you quoted is sarcastic and dry (and quite funny), you couldn't possibly know that, you joined the forums and immediately started a fight.
The ban on Polish subnets is the result of the disproportionately large number of problems coming out of those subnets. With that sentence, you focus on Polish, but the sentence is about subnets.
Add to the fact that people from all over the world post in this forum, and that different people have different names for each other. Hell, even the names we like to be referred to with can be used invectively. Was it caveman who wrote it? (/me to lazy to do more than a quick scan for it) You DO need to get that chip off of your shoulder. It's so big you are walking in circles.
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how would you feel being unable to play a game (that's even open source) because you live in a certain country
All together now everyone:
start your own server then!
Can you possibly dramatize this more? Are you no longer allowed to play tremulous? Is there not 150 other servers?
when I read this post I felt like 'Pole' was a invective.
See, here we find the crux of the problem, it's a personal problem. Pole's are Poles, Swedes are Swedes, Americans are Imperialist :P (actually, I refer to myself as a mutt), French are French. If you want to feel as if the world is talking down to you, then you will continue to see situations in this light. The person who said what you quoted is sarcastic and dry (and quite funny), you couldn't possibly know that, you joined the forums and immediately started a fight.
The ban on Polish subnets is the result of the disproportionately large number of problems coming out of those subnets. With that sentence, you focus on Polish, but the sentence is about subnets.
Add to the fact that people from all over the world post in this forum, and that different people have different names for each other. Hell, even the names we like to be referred to with can be used invectively. Was it caveman who wrote it? (/me to lazy to do more than a quick scan for it) You DO need to get that chip off of your shoulder. It's so big you are walking in circles.
You still miss my point. Read my previous post again. I'll be so nice and will highlight the point:)
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IF you had a point, you'd brought it forward already.
But besides misconstrueing and being thick headed you bring nothing.
It has been explained over and over, and if a normal procedure still hits your pride, you should really get out more. There are enough analogies in the RealWorld that don't make you mad and you accept on a every day basis.
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Here's a solution:
1 - Stop posting here in this thread. The ban was not because you are Polish. The ban was because many players from Poland are idiots. If you don't understand this logic you wont achieve anything.
2 - Inform any servers admin to get yourself unbanned if you want to play on their server. Even if you use dynamic ip this should be quick over irc.
3 - Have fun with Tremulous instead of flaming and getting flamed on the forum.
:)
This place is not some sort of heaven where everybody is equal. You even get laughed at when you don't know something someone knows already :P
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banning polish ips permanently is a solution to some problems but it's the worst one possible. ... I think we need to find a better solution to vandalism, that would allow 'normal' people to enjoy tremulous, no matter where they live
And your solution is? Oh, you don't have a "better" solution? You just want to bitch at all of us who have been dealing with this for a long time about how poor our solution is, but you don't have a better way?
You're too thick headed to listen to the people who have actually been dealing with this when they say that the blacklist solution, which works for most other problems Doesn't work here!
You've had nothing to add for pages, and plenty to complain about. You have persistently refused to listen to people with experience and knowledge of the situation. Why am I still talking to you?
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OMG, nice:) hard heads! Instead of creating 'friendly society' here understand that actions you take to solve one problem cause another, even more serious!
My solution? Make players' register: not obligatory, but some servers could require being registered in it. Not a white list for every single server because it is very ineffective only one keeping players statistics, ip, times when sb played tremu, etc. By looking into it, it would be bloody easy to track down trouble makers without annoying normal players.
So? Will you now stop to squawk about an irritating polish guy and start to think?
I know my idea isn't perfect or even is a piece of shit but something has to be invented because current form of fighting with vandals is simply unacceptable. I'm not the only one to think like that: see voting results.
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rori, will you at least use a part of that brain (i asume you have)?
Since when does "registering" help anything? Any registering can be fooled/spoofed.
Oh and if did not know it, there is already such a thing as a GUID around. But changing it is also very easy.
So in order to avoid the added hassle to keep an eye on the GUID/registering we took it to the base level and denied the ppl the privilege to register/join some server.
Will YOU please start to think, before you run half assed into a discussion that not even PunkBuster won?
And voting? Puhlease, f* o*!
If you start telling me how to run my server by doing a poll, I'd rather not put up a server, than to have some idiot telling me how to spend my money and making demands as to what privilege I plan on granting him.
Face you moron, playing on any server that is not your own is a privilege you have to earn, it is NOT a god-given right.
So instead of bashing your head on a wall here, start doing something to educate the people that are the reason for getting a whole ip-range blocked from some servers.
Try to be honest to yourself for once.
You see this ban as something a Nazi would do, then why start arguing? You surely don't plan on playing where you think the admins are Nazi.
So get thee gone, oh foule one!
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Ah, I see, so instead of the simple solution of blocking the subnets where the vandals you are having problems with come from, they should build a whole new system that blocks out everyone throwing the whole concept of "public" slots out the window, just because the present solution is not politically correct enough for you?
Here's a lesson, this software is free to use and modify. You are more than welcome to build such a system. You are free to bitch that others have not. We are free to ignore your pointless rantings about how someone else should build the solution you want.
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Rorio is right. Tuple is a gaywad. Caveman is his butt-buddy. 'nuff said.
Fear the flamage.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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What rorio means is that if you are having trouble with mosquitos in your bedroom, you have to observe every mosquito, wait until it bites you and then squash it.
While this solution may be very politically correct (at first sight), it's just about impossible to put into practice. It's much easier to buy an environment-friendly mosquito-repellant spray, which is what some people have done.
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What rorio means is that if you are having trouble with mosquitos in your bedroom, you have to observe every mosquito, wait until it bites you and then squash it.
While this solution may be very politically correct (at first sight), it's just about impossible to put into practice. It's much easier to buy an environment-friendly mosquito-repellant spray, which is what some people have done.
Lava, may I have a question? So: statistics show that most crimes are committed by young men 13-25. Thinking in your way, state should lock them all in prison, right?
Lava, eat some chocolate, it's good for brain If it doesn't help, try electro shots.
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rori, will you at least use a part of that brain (i asume you have)?
Since when does "registering" help anything? Any registering can be fooled/spoofed.
Oh and if did not know it, there is already such a thing as a GUID around. But changing it is also very easy.
So in order to avoid the added hassle to keep an eye on the GUID/registering we took it to the base level and denied the ppl the privilege to register/join some server.
Will YOU please start to think, before you run half assed into a discussion that not even PunkBuster won?
And voting? Puhlease, f* o*!
If you start telling me how to run my server by doing a poll, I'd rather not put up a server, than to have some idiot telling me how to spend my money and making demands as to what privilege I plan on granting him.
Face you moron, playing on any server that is not your own is a privilege you have to earn, it is NOT a god-given right.
So instead of bashing your head on a wall here, start doing something to educate the people that are the reason for getting a whole ip-range blocked from some servers.
Try to be honest to yourself for once.
You see this ban as something a Nazi would do, then why start arguing? You surely don't plan on playing where you think the admins are Nazi.
So get thee gone, oh foule one!
Well, I know you're German, but please... Cool down, you don't have to abuse people, even if they are Poles :D
I don't say admins are nazis, I say ways some admins use to get rid of vandals are highly politically incorrect. I'm not asking for privileges but for equal rights.
So: punkbusters work well-> see et.
If punkbuster had someones ip, time someone was playing tremulous, he disconnected, was banned etc. it would be quite easy to track vandals down even if they changed ips or even created some new users. It's tried an tested solution.
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all germans are nazis
they try to invade the world
edit:
(http://english.people.com.cn/200510/08/images/1007_D77.jpg)
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all germans are nazis
they try to invade the world
Mmm, good call. I think this really gives me a lot better insight into Caveman's psyche... Fuckin' nazi.
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Yep, nationalism and stereotypes are sooo gooood:D Especially when they concern you personally. Great! You see someone from Poland and you know, he'll try to steal your car or deconn your base, you see German - he'll try to send you to a death camp
It's sooo cool. You don't even have to think or speak with them - you know their nationality and you know them all. sure.
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I concur. Don't hate on Rorio cuz he's Polish, or I will personally flame all your ethnicities, just as I did with Caveman.
Ye be warned. :P
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So: punkbusters work well-> see et.
If punkbuster had someones ip, time someone was playing tremulous, he disconnected, was banned etc. it would be quite easy to track vandals down even if they changed ips or even created some new users. It's tried an tested solution.
That is TOTAL BULLSHIT. Especially with rtcw:et!
With rtcw:et you don't even need a new IP to circumvent any ban.
And Hardware-ban? Pfffft...
PB-Guid (Hash of hdd and nic)? spoofed in 0.25 seconds
X-Guid (Hash of hdd, nic and bios)? spoofed in 0.25 seconds
It's really a tested solution, I give you that, but it's just a failed one.
It shows that you really have no clue what you are talking about.
How about if go back to school and learn how to read, then read loads about what you plan on talking, then think again and shut up?
Btw, rorio, whom did I abuse?
Those freaking idiots that tell others how to run their server?
Those morons what try to tell me who I have to grant access to my home?
As for the Nazi-stuff... look it up, it was you who brought that forward.
@Kain
I do NOT hate rorio, I do NOT hate poles. I just hate ppl that are ignorant to the point of no help. Heck, that freak did not even care enough to check if the mentioned server is running or still has the ip-range banned.
Ergo my point is still valid, he IS a prime specimen of that ip-range.
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I concur. Don't hate on Rorio cuz he's Polish, or I will personally flame all your ethnicities, just as I did with Caveman.
Ye be warned. :P
You can hate me for any other reason:P I don't mind:P
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rorio, stop this nazi bullshit and start moving on. It's history. If this bullshit continues I don't mind Poland getting invaded a second time. I can imagine now how Hitler was as annoyed as fuck hearing some Poles whining because the World War blocked their food supply.
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rorio, stop this nazi bullshit and start moving on. It's history. If this bullshit continues I don't mind Poland getting invaded a second time. I can imagine now how Hitler was as annoyed as fuck hearing some Poles whining because the World War blocked their food supply.
:0
What did I say about nazis? I was speaking about punkbuster. Plz read my posts.
btw. it's good to know history because it teaches us how to avoid mistakes from the past.
Food supplies? Er, how old are you? 10? Have you got any history lesson in your life? Do you know when the IIWW started? sleekslacker, answer me on priv, ok? You seem to have some lacks in knowledge when it comes to history of 20th century. I can explain you some issues concerning IIWW:) Do not hesitate to ask:) Errare humanum est;)
So far no one had nothing to say about punkbuster.
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What's to say?
We don't use punk buster, and cant use punk buster.
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So far no one had nothing to say about punkbuster.
Ignoring the replies where Caveman was saying why PB doesn't work in that case then yes, no one had nothing to say about that.
BTW, PB sucks.
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So far no one had nothing to say about punkbuster.
Ignoring the replies where Caveman was saying why PB doesn't work in that case then yes, no one had nothing to say about that.
BTW, PB sucks.
That is TOTAL BULLSHIT. Especially with rtcw:et!
Why can't we use punkbuster? I know such brilliant hackers like cavemen can deal with pb in 20seconds, but average vandal isn't that smart and would be unable to pass it by.
Yes Cavemen, you have abused them. Once is enough, you don't have to do it again.
Guys. give up the conversation about nazis, ok? It's getting boooring....
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What's to say?
We don't use punk buster, and cant use punk buster.
Why don't we use pb and why can't we use pb?
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Yep, nationalism and stereotypes are sooo gooood:D Especially when they concern you personally. Great! You see someone from Poland and you know, he'll try to steal your car or deconn your base, you see German - he'll try to send you to a death camp
It's sooo cool. You don't even have to think or speak with them - you know their nationality and you know them all. sure.
You spoke about german and death camp. If you are not talking about nazi history I don't know what you are talking about. I've had enough history lessons I can tell you about Earth before humanity, how it came about in the first place, how moon was created. The World War series is a very thin slice of the history I know. Don't try to teach me history.
Punkbuster is not the solution to your problem. On another note which is totally separate to the discussion to what is the solution to your problem, it just completely sucks. It's gay. And regarding the problem you are facing here, it's only a problem you created yourself. You could whine more like this and flame until you get banned from this forum, or you could just go see the server admin so he'll open up his server to your IP. Either way this problem will disappear. Your call.
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Why can't we use punkbuster? I know such brilliant hackers like cavemen can deal with pb in 20seconds, but average vandal isn't that smart and would be unable to pass it by.
Yes Cavemen, you have abused them. Once is enough, you don't have to do it again.
Guys. give up the conversation about nazis, ok? It's getting boooring....
a) No Hacking is needed to circumvent PB, just use google. PB-Circumvention is even opensource. and guess what? PB can't do jack about it. That is just one reason we don't use it, besides they demand money for accusing others of cheating. Are you willing to pay?
b) again... Whom did I abuse?
c) YOU started talking about nazis, not us
d) when will you get it that you are head over heels in this argument and don't even know what you are talking about.
@Sleek
Ban? What ban on what server? *G*
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What's to say?
We don't use punk buster, and cant use punk buster.
Why don't we use pb and why can't we use pb?
because timbo can't afford a license. because even if he could, they wouldn't give us one because tremulous is open source and they don't want anyone learning how it works. because even if we did use pb, there would be people who would circumvent it as they have done in closed source games without much difficulty. because if we packaged pb, none of the linux distros would package tremulous, because it would no longer be free. (because my cat is an attention whore and won't let me finish writing this rant). it's a huge amount of trouble for something that ends up removing value from tremulous, not adding it.
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Uhm, so, can I request letting me into this server?
I will even revoke my time traveling skills while playing there (nick Time Traveler)
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bunk buster is for punks and we are not
edit:
(http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/2/-/bush_debate_poland.jpg)
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Why don't we use pb and why can't we use pb?
sure we will use PB if you pay the several hundred thousand dollar license and maintenance costs.
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Why don't we use pb and why can't we use pb?
sure we will use PB if you pay the several hundred thousand dollar license and maintenance costs.
they will refuse to give tremulous a license even if you could pay for it.
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Lava, may I have a question? So: statistics show that most crimes are committed by young men 13-25. Thinking in your way, state should lock them all in prison, right?
I'm gonna go with it as being an Appeal to Consequences (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adconseq.html) though I'd also say that it is begging the question (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html)
Funny, he also threw the hitler card (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html).
Since this is going nowhere, anyone else wanna sift through some or rorio's logical falacies (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/) and see what you find?
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Why don't we use pb and why can't we use pb?
Satgnu tremulous server has adapted the pb system long time ago and it works perfectly, we really recommend the pole ban to all other servers aswell.
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It's been my very first day on this forum and I'm shocked by some things around here. The worst is the amount of chauvinism. Such things can't be tolerated in 21th century.
The most outrageous example of nationalism is ban on sat.gnu for all polish ips. It's even more shocking because server has gnu in it's name, of course if you know what stands behind and know the gnu ideology.
That's why I ask the developers(or the main server maintainers) to remove sat.gnu from the servers list.
If you support my opinion vote yes in the poll.
Don't tolerate breaking human rights, don't be passive.
Cry little fag, cry
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Locked by popular request! hooray :tyrant: