Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: ShiroBoshi on May 12, 2007, 07:19:07 pm
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I know I may seem naive that and it's pretty obvious that aliens seem to always win . . . but . . . is that always the case? I mean perhaps the aliens are overpowered? Or is it because all of the bad players take on the human team?
Feedback would be nice. :D
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In 1.1.0, yes. Try a mod server.
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Or is it because all of the bad players take on the human team?
that does happen a lot, but aliens are a bit stronger than humans in 1.1.0 (mostly because it makes much easier for one good alien player to singlehandedly win the game than a good human player). the development version has much closer human to alien win ratio: http://tremulous.sf.net/balance/tjw-lame_regen6/overall.png
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lately, it's pretty even, humans seem to win alot as well.
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actually, it's the maps and skill of the players. the aliens have a slight advantage, but small enough that it comes down to those
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if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.
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if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.
Atcs isn't neutral with ff on unless someone patchs
in no tk dmg for pounce and rampage (for the hallway).
On the other hand, who ever heard of equal skill level teams?
The players skill tends to be the dominating factor in most
games. If the game is no more than a 3v3 then it does
favor aliens but only if no one feeds the humans past stage 1.
Huge games do slightly favor the humans dude to combined
ranged firepower, but skilled players can usually overcome that
without too much difficulty assuming their team can back them up.
note: atcs can be mostly neutral with lower player counts
(4-5 per team) as fewer players favors alien and the narrow hallway
with ff pouncing favors humans.
~ B1ackmagic
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if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.
atcs favors humans almost as much as uncreation.
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Humans are the more powerful team, with their effectiveness lessened depending on how big the map is. They are superbly effective on atcs, and absolutely terrible on, say, pulse.
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Would you agree with the following?
IF AlienSkill?=False AND HumanSkill?=False THEN PRINT "Aliens Win"
IF AlienSkill?=False AND HumanSkill?=True THEN PRINT "Humans Win"
IF AlienSkill?=True AND HumanSkill?=False THEN PRINT "Aliens Win"
IF AlienSkill?=True AND HumanSkill?=True THEN PRINT "Humans Win"
It is by no means a thorough evaluation.. more an exaggeration.
[Please Note: I is not programmer 1337, but feel free to laugh at my 'kodez']
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A good human team can steamroll aliens pretty easily. The problem in most pubs is the majority of human players barely leave base and never attack unless someone else has allready done most of the work. A lot of human players will complain they never win, but it's as if they don't realize that you need to actually attack to be able to win.
Most aliens will take sometimes up to 20-30 minutes to wear down a well made human base. Hell, I've played games where the entire time I was just going after the human base. Then the H players will complain that after 3 or 4 attacks they didn't completely kill us.
Honestly, with a lot of servers using unlagged now, a decent human team is more then capable of taking on aliens from s1 to s3. Too many players don't even bother using teamwork and get wrecked in the process. They blame overpowered aliens instead of a lack of their own, or their teams skills.
Which is kind of annoying, since there are enough of these players that the next versions will most likely seriously lack balance in real skilled gameplay.
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if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.
ATCS isn't a neutral map, everyone will go in the hallway, and dretch can't hide well in hallway, since you know they're somewhere behind the corner, it's pretty easy to feint them...
Also, people don't seem the understand that human require a lot of teamplay, especialy at the begining of the game
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Which is kind of annoying, since there are enough of these players that the next versions will most likely seriously lack balance in real skilled gameplay.
This is something I hoped to highlight in my 'kodez'.
Let's say that the 'kodez' (see my previous post) accurately model the situation. And let's make the assumption that there are far more new/weak ability players than there are skilled and experienced players. This would mean that:
Number of 100% skilled games < Number of mixed skill games < Number of 100% Weak ability games
Given all this is so, the majority of games would be won by aliens.
If the developers try to balance the overall wins for the two teams, they could very easily unbalance specific types of games (say for example the skilled vs. skilled games). So where having only the best against the best is the point (e.g. clanwars) this could cause trouble.
It would be a good idea to not just monitor the overall stats, but judge the seperate types of games aswell.
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Aliens also need templay, and that's why they almost always lose during scrims. I guess it's because of the stupid share plugin (you don't need to use strat with that, only one guy do all the work).
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@OP
if Humans leave base
stick together
form fireteam
with 3-4 players
& someone at back running backwards
they can do a lot of damage
even at S1
once saw Humans win Karith in 2 minutes because granger had no time to move weak default positions for eggs & OM
Humans attacked immediately
all Aliens out hunting for lone Humans on other side of map
by Human base/crate room
2 minutes!!!
maybe a 6v6 to 8v8 game
pub server
granted Aliens need to work together, too
we were all out hunting alone... :oops: :-? :P :roll:
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try TremX, what do humans get? Surge, Cloak, Xael (Insta-Kill), Ammo Pack, BioKit, and a few other things... what aliens get?
Basi who can be invisible
Adv. Tyrant
What does this mean? Humans own aliens until aliens hit S3... and usually they DONT hit S3, because humans own them before S3... and even at S3, humans own aliens... Basically put, TremX favors humans! Try it, humans almost never lose
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hi evelsoa
also, note that veteran Trem players can play either side
whereas Trem n00bsters flock to Humans
due to steep Alien learning curve
(fuck pounce, which button is trigger?)
& players love to go Alien and rule the Human00bs
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If you play on a server where the 'better' players actually go Humans, you will see that they tend to win a lot. Sadly, most 'better' players rather go Aliens, so they can rack up kills while guarding a hallway with their Dragoon.
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:eek:
(thinking)
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the way i see it humans are much better in respect to teamwork, with massed rapid-fire weapons quickly killing any aliens, aliens find this more difficult, not so much attacking in groups but individually fighting.
example: a human team might attack the alien base in a group, which usually gives good results, they are weakened when they go in small numbers.
an alien team is not good at attacking in groups, their size and limitation to close range fighting means that they are competing for space a lot of the times, if they take it in turns to pounce turrets, or attack from multiple directions they can be very effective
just my observations of the game, my word is by no means Definitive.
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also, note that veteran Trem players can play either side
whereas Trem n00bsters flock to Humans
due to steep Alien learning curve
(fuck pounce, which button is trigger?)
& players love to go Alien and rule the Human00bs
i remember playing alien and getting frustrated @ pounce. i would keep pouncing too high too low , not hold the button long enough . it took me about 2 weeks after starting to play trem to register my 1st pounce kill :D.
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I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.
Throw away the arguments about - Alien regeneration and evolution any where on the map
- Humans limited ammo and regeneration
- Alien lack of base dependence
- Humans base dependence
- Humans needing coordination
- Aliens not needed as much coordination
At the end of the day, the human team does not have an answer for 5 tyrants sitting out of their base.
1 tyrant is 400 hitpoints and 200 Damage per Second (roughly).
5 tyrants is 2000 hitpoints and 1000 DPS.
Only 2 human weapons can dump out enough DPS to even compare to tyrants. The painsaw and lucifer cannon can theoritically kill tyrants but we all know the drawbacks of those weapons.
The pulse rifle, flamer, and chaingun can be good but it is a matter of time when killing tyrants. The pulse rifle takes 4.4 seconds to kill a tyrant, the flamer takes 4 seconds even, and the chaingun takes 5.3 seconds. In the window of time, a tyrant can deal at least 800 damage before they die.
Of course people will say, what about having 2 humans attack at once. Well, what about having 2 tyrants attacking at once. Its a loss for the humans. Once aliens get positioned comfortably outside the human base, its damn near impossible to reverse it. Sure, you can chase them away, but they just spread out and kill a human somewhere else on the map. They can reestablish their position quickly.
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I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.
A group of humans can take down packs of tyrants easily enough. Chainsuits with a lucy or two will kill them quickly, the answer to 5 tyrants is 6-7 humans. Attack right and they barely get swipes off before they crumble. Some selective camping to just drain their evo's would work just as fine and probably come much more natually to most. Analyzing DPS is fine for statistics, but in a real game there are distances and dodging and a lot of other factors.
And again, you are referring to a game where there are idiots wandering off on their own, aliens having 5 tyrants outside the base is a position that would be best to avoid, an offensive human team usually doesn't have to deal with that since the aliens are too busy tending to their base and getting shot.
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I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.
A group of humans can take down packs of tyrants easily enough. Chainsuits with a lucy or two will kill them quickly, the answer to 5 tyrants is 6-7 humans. Attack right and they barely get swipes off before they crumble. Some selective camping to just drain their evo's would work just as fine and probably come much more natually to most. Analyzing DPS is fine for statistics, but in a real game there are distances and dodging and a lot of other factors.
And again, you are referring to a game where there are idiots wandering off on their own, aliens having 5 tyrants outside the base is a position that would be best to avoid, an offensive human team usually doesn't have to deal with that since the aliens are too busy tending to their base and getting shot.
Ahh but you are wrong... To take down 2 tyrants, you need the power of 2 chainsuits right there... and its a guarantee you will lose a man if the tyrants arent pussies... To take down 5 tyrants, you need atleast 6-7 chainsuits, and a luci or 2... or you WILL lose a few men... The point is, if the tyrants have team work and no FF, you will be down to like 2-3 humans after 7-8 and an open space... 5 tyrants can over-run a base easily!
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it's when there's no ff when it gets unbalanced.
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I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.
We will see.
Throw away the arguments about - Alien regeneration and evolution any where on the map
- Humans limited ammo and regeneration
- Alien lack of base dependence
- Humans base dependence
- Humans needing coordination
- Aliens not needed as much coordination
Will do
At the end of the day, the human team does not have an answer for 5 tyrants sitting out of their base.
Do they not?
1 tyrant is 400 hitpoints and 200 Damage per Second (roughly).
5 tyrants is 2000 hitpoints and 1000 DPS.
Yes obviously all tyrants are constantly hitting humans in headshots resulting in 1000 dps even when they are far away. Think that one over again.
Only 2 human weapons can dump out enough DPS to even compare to tyrants. The painsaw and lucifer cannon can theoritically kill tyrants but we all know the drawbacks of those weapons.
We do, we all also know the drawback of tyrants.
But the fact that remains is the following. Tyrants and all other aliens aren't meant to be taken on 1 vs 1 or 4 vs 4. And a cornerhugging tyrant can kiss my ass, i'm not going near that corner if i have the choice. So I have to make it so that I have a choice. That's why bases with only one entrance are good at defence and bad at offense. One spot for us to shoot at, one spot for them to slash at. Get two exits and the pressure is lower.
The pulse rifle, flamer, and chaingun can be good but it is a matter of time when killing tyrants. The pulse rifle takes 4.4 seconds to kill a tyrant, the flamer takes 4 seconds even, and the chaingun takes 5.3 seconds. In the window of time, a tyrant can deal at least 800 damage before they die.
Again, I've only seen afk tyrants go down in 4.4 seconds to pulse. Statistics aren't everything. Also at least 800 damage? See my previous comment.
Of course people will say, what about having 2 humans attack at once. Well, what about having 2 tyrants attacking at once. Its a loss for the humans. Once aliens get positioned comfortably outside the human base, its damn near impossible to reverse it. Sure, you can chase them away, but they just spread out and kill a human somewhere else on the map. They can reestablish their position quickly.
The trick is not to let them, because I can also say what about two humans positioned comfortably outside alien base. Have you seen the massacre a pair of md's can do to dretches who can't evo because a human is near their base? Again the answer is diversion. Make sure you have another way out. They cannot be anywhere in number. And while the human base is pretty strong when supported by only a small part of the team the alien base is weak when not supported by a large number of aliens.
We're talking situations here. And we can't really predict them like you think.
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it's when there's no ff when it gets unbalanced.
I think you need to have friendly fire on (also), to really get the game
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Yes obviously all tyrants are constantly hitting humans in headshots resulting in 1000 dps even when they are far away. Think that one over again.
Doesn't matter, its still a whole lot of DPS coupled with high hitpoints.
But the fact that remains is the following. Tyrants and all other aliens aren't meant to be taken on 1 vs 1 or 4 vs 4.
I said 5 tyrants. 4 humans for 1 tyrants, what if there are 2 tyrants. 3 Tyrants? How many people does it take?
Again, I've only seen afk tyrants go down in 4.4 seconds to pulse. Statistics aren't everything. Also at least 800 damage? See my previous comment.
If the raw numbers are that high, the average number isn't that far off. Its still takes a long time to kill a tyrant solo, less if humans are paired, but what if tyrants are paired?
The trick is not to let them, because I can also say what about two humans positioned comfortably outside alien base.
We're talking situations here. And we can't really predict them like you think.
Its a race against time that favor aliens more than humans. Sure S2 humans can dominate against a S1 or S2 alien team. But regardless, if the alien team can stay competitive in kills or hold out against humans, they will get S3 and its curtains.
I'm not saying every game goes this way but its more likely than not. I've played this out too many times. The only real alternative is playing a map with a lot of air or vents. Jetpackers can go over tyrants or go through places where tyrants can't reach. But hey, it a helluva long way out and back into your base.
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because we are playing the what if game, S2 v S2. Humans setup a medi/repeater outside alien base. 5 humans are there with pulse rifle's. Aliens WILL get owned.
In both situations it took a while to get like that. The other team needs to break the camp fest before it gets started.
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because we are playing the what if game, S2 v S2. Humans setup a medi/repeater outside alien base. 5 humans are there with pulse rifle's. Aliens WILL get owned.
In both situations it took a while to get like that. The other team needs to break the camp fest before it gets started.
once saw the big doors (Alien base) on Tremor get welded shut by a repeater in the little pink room
maybe it was the multiplicity of wallhung acid tubes, which were going off constantly
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Its a race against time that favor aliens more than humans. Sure S2 humans can dominate against a S1 or S2 alien team. But regardless, if the alien team can stay competitive in kills or hold out against humans, they will get S3 and its curtains.
I'm not saying every game goes this way but its more likely than not. I've played this out too many times. The only real alternative is playing a map with a lot of air or vents. Jetpackers can go over tyrants or go through places where tyrants can't reach. But hey, it a helluva long way out and back into your base.
Sounds like you (and many others) just need to play with better human teams. The race, if anything, favors humans quite a bit. It's a race to kill aliens off before they get to s3, where tyrants are an actual threat to suits instead of just being cannon fodder.
Again too many people are mistaking lack of skill with an imbalance. If aliens have 5-6 tyrants outside your base, odds are they should have won allready anyways. There are tons of ways to kill off that many tyrants, those who disagree just aren't good enough to pull it off.
Those complaining about how overpowered tyrants are really need to play them more often. I can't think of any other excuse why so many people would be so ignorant as to how powerful they are. 400hp sounds like a lot but drops incredibly fast against even small groups of humans with moderate weapons, get a bunch of chainsuits and a luci and most tyrants won't even be able to get close enough for a single swipe.
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Its a race against time that favor aliens more than humans. Sure S2 humans can dominate against a S1 or S2 alien team. But regardless, if the alien team can stay competitive in kills or hold out against humans, they will get S3 and its curtains.
I'm not saying every game goes this way but its more likely than not. I've played this out too many times. The only real alternative is playing a map with a lot of air or vents. Jetpackers can go over tyrants or go through places where tyrants can't reach. But hey, it a helluva long way out and back into your base.
Sounds like you (and many others) just need to play with better human teams. The race, if anything, favors humans quite a bit. It's a race to kill aliens off before they get to s3, where tyrants are an actual threat to suits instead of just being cannon fodder.
Again too many people are mistaking lack of skill with an imbalance. If aliens have 5-6 tyrants outside your base, odds are they should have won allready anyways. There are tons of ways to kill off that many tyrants, those who disagree just aren't good enough to pull it off.
Those complaining about how overpowered tyrants are really need to play them more often. I can't think of any other excuse why so many people would be so ignorant as to how powerful they are. 400hp sounds like a lot but drops incredibly fast against even small groups of humans with moderate weapons, get a bunch of chainsuits and a luci and most tyrants won't even be able to get close enough for a single swipe.
1.1.0 tyrants are overpowered, when i was still playing 1.1.0 (there's nothing that can drag me off a server running the development version of tremulous now), i could take on 2 chainsuits (who i know to be skilled) at the same time.
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play with ff on. it makes the rants a lot less powerful, and even gives goons problems.
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Wow, I leave this for a day or so and I get 2 pages of replies. Thanks guys xD.
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I think that the tyrants biggest problem is its ability to run constantly at a speed comparable to prifle shots. (at least from the human point of view) Slow them down and then they have to run sooner and might still have to deal with a chaser.
Why has no one mentioned the nade yet? 310 damage max at once, max obtainable for 200 creds, while luci has ~265 max in one shot, obtainable for 600 creds.
*light bulb over head went on*
:D Turn the luci into a grenade launcher!!! It would basically require a direct hit, but one hit WOULD send them running. TWO humans with nade launchers might be able to deal with your 5 tyrs, but maras would probably pwn them!
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If you play on a server where the 'better' players actually go Humans, you will see that they tend to win a lot. Sadly, most 'better' players rather go Aliens, so they can rack up kills while guarding a hallway with their Dragoon.
Yes better players go alien... but the godlike players go human. There are more good players then godlike players and thus the discrepancy in wins.
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Sounds like you (and many others) just need to play with better human teams. The race, if anything, favors humans quite a bit. It's a race to kill aliens off before they get to s3, where tyrants are an actual threat to suits instead of just being cannon fodder.
That is the apart of the problem.
Humans can hit S2 but they have kill the whole alien base to win.
Aliens just have to hit S3.
Throw in egg spam or camping aliens and it becomes much harder to finish the job, despite the firepower humans have at S2. That's assuming you have the credits to do a good rush.
If the Aliens are neck and neck with humans when they hit S2, its still easier to get S3 than for the humans to wipe the map of all aliens or eggs. When I play aliens, I try to deny kills and get kills. But when humans hit S2 way before my team or god forbit hit S3, I don't worry. I just suicide into humans in an attempt to slow their march on the alien base and to hopefully get the kills needed for S3.
Then, everything comes to a halt.
IF humans got some kind of tank or something overpowered at S3, then it wouldn't be as bad. But the human S3, alien S3 balance is more relevant than the S2 balance between the teams. In theory, the majority of games would be played S3 team vs S3 team. Since human S3 can't answer tyrants, humans hitting S3 first doesn't matter as much in the sense of the whole game. In order for humans to win, the games have to be 20 minutes or shorter. Any time it takes longer than that, aliens will hit S3 and be able to counter.
Tremulous has more strategy than people think. But at the end of the day, tyrants are just too damn strong on a ground based map.
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IF humans got some kind of tank or something overpowered at S3, then it wouldn't be as bad. But the human S3, alien S3 balance is more relevant than the S2 balance between the teams. In theory, the majority of games would be played S3 team vs S3 team. Since human S3 can't answer tyrants, humans hitting S3 first doesn't matter as much in the sense of the whole game.
Humans can answer tyrants, they can't answer tyrants in mass when they're low on creds, which they should be if the aliens were able to get all those evoes. Same way aliens can't answer humans in mass, they get picked off by all the firepower coming their way before getting a netto increase in evoes.
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I think human and alien are balanced, both team will need teamplay, but alien will only need teamplay if human actuly use teamplay.
People who are saying that 3 humansÂ>3 dretches are retard, since dretch is a sneaky class, you can't rush to a human and try to dodge his bullets, it only work with those who can't aim.
Now, there is someone who talked about human alway winning in scrim it's not true, as I said before, alien will need to use teamplay too, but they can't fit 2 goons in a small room, so the only way you play as a team, is to swap, 1 goon attack, go back and the next one take his place.
Someone also said something about Human with skillsÂ>Alien with skills, But how can the Alien be skilled and still lose? since they have the advantage when human are still S1, when human hit S2, it's a little bit harder, but if alien defend their base, and use the booster, they will probably be able to hit S3, and then push the humans back to their base.
Sorry for my bad english, I will probably explain a little bit more back to home
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This is ridiculous. You guys assume that when the aliens hit stage 3, it's game over.
[list=]
It's only game over if the humans have been feeding the aliens for the whole game.
And if they all camped in their base like a bunch of pussies (which, 9 chances out of 10, they ARE doing).
And if they didn't work together (think dretches are hard? Get teammates backing you up that aren't afraid to help. Most dretches home in and circle bite one guy, hoping to literally confuse him to death. The only problem is that most Tremulous players seem to be ten years old and beefed up on the average FPS's which DON'T require teamwork. Then, they come on here and complain they couldn't kill a Tyrant 1 on 1 with a blaster pistol, light armor and a medpack. Well no wonder, stay with your team next time. All of you).
Yes, I'll readily state my belief that most noobs go on the human team. Think about it, when you were downloading Tremulous, what were you thinking of? I'm guessing you were mainly thinking of some buff dude ripping aliens apart with his bare hands, right? Yeah, most of us have had it up to here with all the human killing FPS's, so we want to go slaughter some extraterrestrials that bleed green slime, right? i'm sure you would have been interested in the alien's features and all, (face it, what other shooter has you crawling on walls? Spiderman doesn't carry a M4-Carbine on him.) but you still probably were more interested in shooting a species other than your own. That's why all the bad players tend to go "ZOMG H00MINZ!" and join that team (ever go in a pub? You've got people waiting for 5 minutes for someone to join alien so they can snag a seat on human and camp in the corner all game).[/list=]
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play with ff on
(http://www.popwuping.com/stuff/picts/true2.jpg)
You've got people waiting for 5 minutes for someone to join alien so they can snag a seat on human and camp in the corner all game
(http://khailee.info/truth.gif)
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Say there are 3 rants outside of base 1 is an expert 1 is an ok player but gets angry easily 1 is a plain noob
me and one other rifler saw this and since it was a gg soon we decied to rush thise 3 rants around a corner.We said gl and charged at them shooting into those 3. The expert reacted imediatly but was behind the others the noob sliced widly at us but hit his teamate the average.The average got pissed and killed his teamate but he was badly damaged so we took him down.The expert sighed and left the game.Me and the other rifler were ok no damage at all and were laughing.Since that was the aliens only defense and no more evos the humis won.That was my funniest tory of 2 naked riflers taking down 3 rants (sorta) and winning the game. :eek:
So noobs kinda balence with ff bcause they hit their teamates alot and block alot. even experts at low health die.Also with humis noobs ask for creds without doing crap and get luci and always shoot those dretches at their teamate's feet.having noob's or new people help even this game out somewhat even though i hate em...