Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: St. Anger on June 08, 2007, 08:50:52 am
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Recently, maybe 3-4 days ago on Fragify# (Boom Boom). There was a guy using an aimbot, he even admitted it. He also spammed the site where he got it from every other 5 minutes. Which I remember, incase any programmer thinks he/she knows how to make an anti-patch.
He also said it was a beta, which is similar to other peoples claims about the recent aimbot activity.
We can expect more and more aimbotters coming around so we need to come up with some kind of solution!!
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The solution's already been around since March 31 2006.
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There is no solution for hackers and there never will be.
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the solution is admins.
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Yeah, I just ran into an aimbotter earlier today as well.
Demo here :
http://uploaded.to/?id=khtfnj
edit: I should say that I have absolutely no way of proving that this aimbotter is the real [afix]Jay, and not just some imitator.
edit2 : Jay's reply on this : http://dretchstorm.com/node/1299#comment-5464
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the solution is admins.
Admins are only a temporary solution that isn't even always available. You would need admins that spectate the server 24/7. Not even V-Caveman is crazy enough to do that.
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We should make the GUIDs hardware based, so re-installing Tremulous would not change it. This way, we would have a greater chance of banning cheaters. We should also implement an online database, which tracks all banned GUIDs. If a GUID is banned from several servers (with different IPs), the GUID gets globally banned.
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There is no solution for hackers and there never will be.
Maybe no solution (meaning something that will stop hacking for good) but if anything that's a reason to keep trying to invent new ways of finding and pacifying such hacks. If ever you stop they will corrupt all that we hold dear and everything precious to us. We should never stop fighting! NEVER!
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link to my own aimbot:
http://www.aim.com/get_aim/win/other_win.adp
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lol
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We should make the GUIDs hardware based, so re-installing Tremulous would not change it. This way, we would have a greater chance of banning cheaters. We should also implement an online database, which tracks all banned GUIDs. If a GUID is banned from several servers (with different IPs), the GUID gets globally banned.
It sounds very interesting, is it really possible ?
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I think it could be good against "kervins" who know only tremulous official binary release, but if someone can make a wallhack or aimbot patch, He could be easly generate fake guid keys and give fake hardware specification
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We should make the GUIDs hardware based, so re-installing Tremulous would not change it. This way, we would have a greater chance of banning cheaters. We should also implement an online database, which tracks all banned GUIDs. If a GUID is banned from several servers (with different IPs), the GUID gets globally banned.
Maybe its too simple for our aimbotters,but my brother ( a.k.a. Critical ), told me witch "hardware component" u could use. It is MAC Address of netwrok card.
Btw. In last week i've hunted 2 Aimbotters, at ATCS Battleground Server, and Swiss Lowping. You can find demos here:
http://www.savefile.com/projects/808497861
Files are in bottom of site...
1st replay
In first 5 minutes of replay I was playing as human. But after i started following UnnamedPlay, bcuz something was wrogn with this guy.
Please pay atention in 12:20 minute of it, u can see how it works.
2nd Replay
Have fun.
3rd Replay
Wait 1 minute, bcuz i was playing at start as alien.
Have fun guys,
d0t.
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Yeah, I just ran into an aimbotter earlier today as well.
Demo here :
http://uploaded.to/?id=khtfnj
It seems like everytime I see these aimbotters it's the same story. They become so reliant on the aimbot that you see them shooting/chomping forward (no matter whether there's a teammate there or not) waiting for their bot to direct the attack toward the enemy. How much fun can a person have doing something like that?!?
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Another an idea of my brother is to add feature of creating user accounts by Master Server(MS). User who doesnt have or have incorrect qfile(QFILE-Next Generation :P ) will be registred by MS and given qfile (GENERATED BY MS). When Player joins game, game server gets his qfile-NG and checks in MS qfile-NG database. If it's incorrect Game Server prohibites joining game.
Effects:
- MS has couple information about user (IP, QFile-NG, date of start playing, etc. )
- Users are unique in all Tremulous "wild wild word" :P
- MS Have little more work to do. :P
how do you feel this ?
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Hm, something like that sounds nice, indeed. Or we build our own master server, and registration follows an activation with a key, which you receive via postal service... Ok, they would cost us something, but thats really unique then ;)
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Maybe its too simple for our aimbotters,but my brother ( a.k.a. Critical ), told me witch "hardware component" u could use. It is MAC Address of netwrok card.
Anyone can change their MAC address to anything they wish at any time: even in windows, and without installing any additional software.
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thats why we ( me and my brother ) posted the 2nd idea...
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Hm, something like that sounds nice, indeed. Or we build our own master server, and registration follows an activation with a key, which you receive via postal service... Ok, they would cost us something, but thats really unique then ;)
prepared to ship those globally dasprid? lol
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I think I gave this global registration idea earlier. It's too much of a hassle and avoidable unless you really tie the key to individual persons ( National ID number :D )
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even if you manage to make keys based on hardware in a manner that you can't fake it (which is impossible btw), there's nothing stopping anyone from replacing your complex algorithm to calculate cl_guid with sprintf(newguid, "%x%x%x%x",rand(),rand(),rand(),rand());
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The only way would be to make the people pay like 3 or 4$ to get a GUID, located in a database and verified each time you play on a server. If the hacker get ban from every servers, he would need to buy a new one, and after 3 times, I guess many people would understand.
For now, if you can get a new GUID like you want, it's impossible to prevent hackers.
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The only way would be to make the people pay like 3 or 4$ to get a GUID, located in a database and verified each time you play on a server. If the hacker get ban from every servers, he would need to buy a new one, and after 3 times, I guess many people would understand.
For now, if you can get a new GUID like you want, it's impossible to prevent hackers.
actually you don't need a central database, just digital signatures are enough.
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!kick / !ban works quite well. lava said that admins are not online 24/7...neither are most players, chances are that if there are good people playing there will be an admin too so let's drop the pay 3$ to play idea please.
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We should make the GUIDs hardware based, so re-installing Tremulous would not change it. This way, we would have a greater chance of banning cheaters. We should also implement an online database, which tracks all banned GUIDs. If a GUID is banned from several servers (with different IPs), the GUID gets globally banned.
Maybe its too simple for our aimbotters,but my brother ( a.k.a. Critical ), told me witch "hardware component" u could use. It is MAC Address of netwrok card.
Btw. In last week i've hunted 2 Aimbotters, at ATCS Battleground Server, and Swiss Lowping. You can find demos here:
http://www.savefile.com/projects/808497861
Files are in bottom of site...
1st replay
In first 5 minutes of replay I was playing as human. But after i started following UnnamedPlay, bcuz something was wrogn with this guy.
Please pay atention in 12:20 minute of it, u can see how it works.
2nd Replay
Have fun.
3rd Replay
Wait 1 minute, bcuz i was playing at start as alien.
Have fun guys,
d0t.
Right, and mac addy is also spoofable.
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hard-disk or motherboard ID is harder.
work it into a public key system, and were going good.
Of course, being OSS it will get avoided, but it will slow the shit bags down.
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hard-disk or motherboard ID is harder.
work it into a public key system, and were going good.
Of course, being OSS it will get avoided, but it will slow the shit bags down.
it won't slow them down. the solution is to give out signed qkey's for a small donation ($5 or something), and allow servers the option to only accept guids signed by timbo. (timbo had a similar idea, except with a central server and accounts replacing the digital signatures)
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It owns
just trying to figure it out, it sucks with aliens, I cant get it to pull off a headbite, for humans you have to either shoot when ur botting or bot, release, shoot, bot, which sucks.
all in all, its hard to use but it does give a good advantage.
something i want to point out, when i attempted to join SST(all 3 times) with it, i got an error message that tremulous had to shut down.
do they hold the solution?
perhaps their non virginity, i mean, unpurity (sv_pure, duh) is preventing the bot? i dunno, my kodez knowledge r slim.
Evlesoa could figure it out, though!
_________________
Resistance is futile.
Pledge allegiance to the pl0x.
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SST is unpure
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hard-disk or motherboard ID is harder.
work it into a public key system, and were going good.
Of course, being OSS it will get avoided, but it will slow the shit bags down.
it won't slow them down. the solution is to give out signed qkey's for a small donation ($5 or something), and allow servers the option to only accept guids signed by timbo. (timbo had a similar idea, except with a central server and accounts replacing the digital signatures)
timbo is wise
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He may be wise, but he wouldn't make us pay for Tremulous!!!
Would he?!? :evil: :P
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Aside from consistent bannination, there's not really a solution to this; asshats will be asshats, ya know. :P
Plus, as the infamous jeff once stated, "You'll get over it."
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He may be wise, but he wouldn't make us pay for Tremulous!!!
Would he?!? :evil: :P
You wouldn't be paying for tremulous, you'd be paying for a key from timbo. Big difference. Servers could require the key that's signed by timbo, require their own key, or require no key. It's up to the server. I suspect that many operators would have a high degree of trust in a system instituted by timbo, or many of the other devs as well.
My idea in the past was to allow servers the option to require usernames/passwords which could be stored in a mysql db, local or remote. A server operator could have their own DB of users, or a bunch of server operators could share a DB IF they so desire. Anybody could allow users to register a username/password on a web site that would be added to the DB (the web site would be easy to make, not part of the game :) ), and a ban from one server could be a ban on all servers sharing the DB (again, IF operators decide to share a db) or not, depends on the design of the db. Each server adds a table to the db for that server and stores bans there. Maybe even admins.
This would be a solution that is NOT centralized, but groups of servers that have some trust in each others decisions could centralize their information IF they should decide to.
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"]We should make the GUIDs hardware based, so re-installing Tremulous would not change it. This way, we would have a greater chance of banning cheaters. We should also implement an online database, which tracks all banned GUIDs. If a GUID is banned from several servers (with different IPs), the GUID gets globally banned.
It sounds very interesting, is it really possible ?
I dont think it is possible. Cause if one GUID gets banned, how do you plan to set one server to communicate with another server to write to the admin.dat? It might be possible if you can think of another way.
But other then that you cant right to the admin.dat file unless the person who ever hosting the server opens ports and make it a web base file and probley .php would be the best way. But other then that I dont know what you guys plan to do about making them be banned globally.
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I'm no tech-head, so please humour me..
Am I to understand these aimbots are inside the tremulous application when they're used? If so, why can't the servers check to see if the necessary modifacations have been made or not? Is that what is meant by an 'unpure client'?
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I'm no tech-head, so please humour me..
Am I to understand these aimbots are inside the tremulous application when they're used? If so, why can't the servers check to see if the necessary modifacations have been made or not? Is that what is meant by an 'unpure client'?
the only way for the server to check if the client has been modified is to ask the client if it's been modified. if the client is modified it can lie.
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from the few aimbots i've seen while playin trem, they only work decently or at all with smaller servers. 3 aliens approach 1 player w/ the aimbot and he goes mad tryin to shoot all 3 simultaneously and getting killed by the 3 b4 he can kill just 1 of them. also, a skilled player: OPP, SGA, Xil, NT - could own a guy using aimbot anyways.
btw im back from vacation.
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flux this is for you
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5980/forumwiniv1.png)
<3
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Someone mentioned this, think it was lava. Using harddrive serial ids, Like some trial softwares uses to create locked guid's on installation. Also creating a global ban list servers can contact for updates of who was banned.
Doesnt Cs have something like this? Steambans?
Everytime someone is caught they would have to reinstall on a new hard drive. Which would be annoying and slow them down in my opinion.
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Everytime someone is caught they would have to quit and start their custom client again that assigns them a random guid on startup.
fixed
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This is something i posted some time ago in this forum. Post again for relevancy:
karma system with global authentication system
Usage of a global authentication system.
We allready have a database for authentication, and that is this forum.
The idea proposed here requires changes to the client and server code of tremulous, as well as adding some PHP scripts on this forum server and adding tremserver specific user right groups in this forum.
Before a player signs into a tremulous server, he has to submit username and password. For convenience username (this already is) and password can be stored in autoexec.cfg.
The client validates the username and password directly with a php script on this forum (simple http request).
The password is not send to the tremulous server. This to make it impossible for illintend serverowners to collect user passwords.
The client reveives a temporary valid key from the forum server, which it uses to validate against the tremulous server it wants to join.
The tremulous server checks back this temporary key with another php script on this forum (simple http request)
The server software of this forum probably has a group rights management. Special groups can be created. These new groups have no special rights in this forum. But the tremulous server can query the groups right of the player that wishes to connect.
So, when the tremulous server validates the key from the client, and
- the key does not match, the client is refused.
- the key does match, but the username is in the group BANNED, the client is refused.
- If the key matches, and the username is in a group permitted by the tremulous server, the client is accepted
So schematically
[list=1]
- TremClient sends username and password to ForumServer
- TremClient receives a temporary key from ForumServer
- TremClient sends temporary key to TremServer
- TremServer validate temporary key with ForumServer
- TremServer receives the Groupnames of the User
- TremServer validates Groupnames
[/list:o]
Server owners are free to use this, but are not required to use it. And when they use it, they can decide themself in what way they use it. As a consequence, different servers are running different configurations depending on their usual player base and server purpose (you have public servers and match servers).
The Server owners can configure their server, what Groupnames it accepted and which ingame rights depending on Groupnames a player has.
Some example of configurations how they could work for trem servers.
1. No authorization is required
This is as it is now, players log in with any name they choose.
2. Special rights for registerd players
Anybody can play on a server. But only those that provided a valid user name and password have special rights, such as:
- the right to start a vote
- the right to talk in public chat
- non-registered players are kicked when a registerd player logs into a full server with no other open slots.
- right to build
(these are just ideas)
3. Only registerd users can play
You have to provide a valid user name and password to be able to log into a server at all.
Notes
In a normal scenario, you would have a mixture of servers running. Having no open servers at all will make it difficult for players that have just downloaded the game and want to try it out. If they like the game and are interested, they will find this forum and a note on the first page on how to log into register-required servers. This way, more experienced players also don't have the grief of having to pwn first time newbs, but are playing on servers with other more experienced players that were interested enough to sign up.
Example of Groups could be:
GLOBAL.BANNED
ALIENWRATH.PLAYER (default,but no public chat, only pm and team chat, and no build)
ALIENWRATH.BANNED (not allowed to join)
ALIENWRATH.TALK_AND_BUILD (in addition can talk and build)
ALIENWRATH.TEAMVOTE
ALIENWRATH.PUBLICVOTE
For match servers you could even set up spawn rights, so that you can make clan matches public viewable for spectators without the threat of non-clan members entering the game and messing it up.
The whole forum authentication needs a dedicated forum team to keep things operational and smooth. It actually all depends on how this is maintained. Granted, it does seem to be quite a job, but trusted serverowners and admins could help in the process. Many other things may evenutally also be automated.
Drawbacks
If someone gets banned from global login, it is ofcourse not very difficult to create a new login (hotmail, yahoo). But it is a much greater hassle already for evil minded server hoppers.
One solution to make it even more difficult is:
- to forbid certain email domain names like yahoo or hotmail, but still add them on special request
- track IP of registrations
- on registration the client GUID must be provided. registration could even be done from inside the client menu.
These are just ideas....i am sure that tomorrow i will think that half of the ideas are crap and won't work. But maybe they are helpful in getting a solution. And remember, its the free will of the server owner if he wants to use the authentication service or not, or for which servers to use it.
Eeeeeew
A last note: With an open source game, it will be impossible to have a failsave system. The only thing one can do is to make it as hard as possible.
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Everytime someone is caught they would have to quit and start their custom client again that assigns them a random guid on startup.
fixed
So their is no way to hardcode it in so it can't be changed?(doh thats right its opensource.) Well if that is the case than it goes back to keys and having to register to get one. Than people would register for multiple ones specially if they were free.
Unless everytime you enter a server it compares your guid with your hard drive serial number, and does a check to make sure your guid comes from your hard drive number, But than again anyone who can hack the checksums for pure could get by this.
Being a server admin, only thing I know I will do is. Record the Ip of anyone aimbotting and ban. When someone is starting to look fishy, compare their ip for subnet match and similarities. It works pretty well for catching ban dodgers with dynamic Ip's.
P.S. i am going on 40mins of sleep and have to wake up in 5 hours. Otherwise I think i would have caught that myself :)
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:sigh:
Back to my favourite topic... PunkBuster.
What makes you guys think you can implement something like it, without failing from the start?
But that would actually be the second step...
The first would be to prove that someone is actually cheating, that is much more work...
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A karma system is not only to track cheaters, but all forms of griefing.
Known deconners etc etc, even simply just players you don't want on your server.
Just having a master system and a karma system implemented doesn't qualify to be called PunkBuster. PunkBuster is a lot more, and a lot more of what I think Trem doesnt need. But a global registration/karma system I think will be unavoidable when the community grows. Also it makes it a lot easier for server operators. Unfortunately not all servers are as well maintained and monitored as the Wrath Servers. I can understand Caveman that you would be against that system, but again this is only true because you do a lot of effort already to ensure a trusted playerbase. If all server would be maintained that well, I agree that a global karma system would not be necessary.
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Registration systems don't work unless you have to pay for registration or there's some tie-in to real life: ie, must provide a working address, telephone number, credit card, etc. Eg.: gmail
This is largely what we need, but it has to either be pay (even some small amount) or the later, which requires resources that probably noone involved has.
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This reminds me of when I used to play Gmod (Garry's Mod for HL2). From what I understand a karma system is, I'm pretty sure Gmod had one too. If you can't call it a karma system then at least take it as an example of how systems like it can fail.
You could give/recieve ratings from other players depending on their opinion of you. People could then judge those people by those ratings.
Gmod also had plenty of players willing to ruin the game for the rest. If ever you did anything to stop them, they'd give you a bad rating. With enough of these players, innocent players could get bad karma easily.
If a player saw another player with a bad rating, it wasn't uncommon for them to add to that score before actually seeing whether or not they deserve it first hand (Reminds me of the people in tremulous who vote because they see that person has a few of those votes already >.<)
You also got groups of trouble-makers who would rate each other good.
Maybe if you could stop people with bad karma giving ratings.. or if you could make it relative to all the ratings given, this system might work.
Though I can see the differences between this system and the one you propose, in both there seems to be a chance innocent people could be discriminated against because of the ratings/bans they have.
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Umm... what if it isnt with a GUID? What if its some random new player or something?
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You could give/recieve ratings from other players depending on their opinion of you. People could then judge those people by those ratings.
Its a good point and hasn't been discussed here yet.
I agree it would fail if jack and pete are allowed to give ratings.
There are many interpretations of how a karma system should look like.
If you wanted to ban people for any reasons, you would have to know who's opinion to trust in any kind of implementation and interpretation of the system. How some other games work, is that administrators and referees of some of the servers are trusted, or atleast know how to interpret their opinion. This is just an example, likely there are better suggestions.
All in all, such a karma system would only globally ban a player in very extreme situations. For example, an extreme camper might be someone you don't like on your server, but would never be a reason to global ban a player. Using cheats or being known as a regular deconner might usually be a reason to global ban a player.
Local banning as it is now would still be in place for smaller offenses, violations of rules that only applies to that particular server (e.g. usage of strong language/extreme camping/one-time-deconning/noobing).
edit: Also there has to be rules about ban length. For example, for a one-time offense of using cheat clients may lead to only one month of ban time. If caught a second time, or when it has been observed that a player has tried to avoid the ban, the ban is extended to a much longer time.
Life-time bans usually just ensures that the offender tries with extreme means to sabotage a servers operation.
Note that the purpose of these systems is not to punish people, but is there to allow easy maintenance for trying to keep games and servers a lot more freed of trouble and troublemakers.
edit: Another point is, from some of the other threads i gather that there are quite some players around that would just try to use a cheat because of curiosity or 'investigative purposes'. For these occasions we could also have a cheat server, a server that explicitly allows cheats.
First plus is that it invalidates the excuse 'i just wanted to try it out' when caught on a server which does not allow cheats, and second it might be enough for those cases that really use cheats out of curiosity or 'investigative purposes'.
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You could give/recieve ratings from other players depending on their opinion of you. People could then judge those people by those ratings.
Its a good point and hasn't been discussed here yet.
I agree it would fail if jack and pete are allowed to give ratings.
There are many interpretations of how a karma system should look like.
If you wanted to ban people for any reasons, you would have to know who's opinion to trust in any kind of implementation and interpretation of the system. How some other games work, is that administrators and referees of some of the servers are trusted, or atleast know how to interpret their opinion. This is just an example, likely there are better suggestions.
All in all, such a karma system would only globally ban a player in very extreme situations. For example, an extreme camper might be someone you don't like on your server, but would never be a reason to global ban a player. Using cheats or being known as a regular deconner might usually be a reason to global ban a player.
Local banning as it is now would still be in place for smaller offenses, violations of rules that only applies to that particular server (e.g. usage of strong language/extreme camping/one-time-deconning/noobing).
Also there has to be rules about ban length. For example, for a one-time offense of using cheat clients may lead to only one month of ban time. If caught a second time, or when it has been observed that a player has tried to avoid the ban, the ban is extended to a much longer time.
Life-time bans usually just ensures that the offender tries with extreme means to sabotage a servers operation.
I agree! This would be a neat system... So if you get too many negative ratings, that contain the word "hack" you get banned globally yeah! BUT... how do you know people are honest... for all you know they could be bullshitting just to get you banned :(
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simple solution: make the server browser show which servers have admins online (admins that can ban or at least kick), then i wouldnt play on a server without admins.
they have to be responsible admins of course :P
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http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NSMCURBK
Just a little something some people might want to know. If you don't give a shit, please don't flame, I simply want those who are a bit curious about the huge amount of aimbots to at least see this...it may be all true, it may be mostly false, but you never know. :(
Sometimes it's saying it's unavailable, don't worry.
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Distributing qkeys with a price tag on each doesn't really stop the crackers from looking at the open source qkey generator code and make their own valid generator. I don't really understand how this will be implemented. It will work depending on how you put the register<->lookup/confirm user system in place. But really, the solution is already here : private server.
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Distributing qkeys with a price tag on each doesn't really stop the crackers from looking at the open source qkey generator code and make their own valid generator. I don't really understand how this will be implemented. It will work depending on how you put the register<->lookup/confirm user system in place. But really, the solution is already here : private server.
I think you misunderstood the price tag idea. You are only allowed to play when our qkey/username etc is registered at a global database, which costs to get it registered there. Only when your qkey matches with the one in the global database are you allowed to play. So you could generate all the qkeys you want, as long as there is no match for it in the global database, you cant play. Not that i am in favor of the price tag idea, but it atleast is one way how to make it work.
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Any option that involves cost charges me for other people being assholes which in turn pisses me off even more. Not to mention a certain someone does like you and kicks you or bans you for no reason says your a hacker etc even if they are a trusted person on the karma system just having a bad day.. thats screwing with your money.
If you put your software on someone else's computer and they can do to it as they wish then there will always be problems. THE BEST SOLUTION is for people to quickly make patches for these bots and have an update system in tremulous. Thats the problem with the other games is they have aimbotters.. they see they do.. they sometimes fix the problem.. they just don't implement the solution quickly and just wait for the next version etc. We have a great community, and a lot of coders. We can patch this stuff in a reasonable time-frame i'm sure. This kind of solution deals with not only current problems but future ones.
As far as greifers etc... the best you can do is mac/ip/guid kicking... yeah they can spoof them but it still makes it less convenient and accessible. There is NO solid way to authenticate someone IS NOT someone else.
(maybe ask for it to generate a machine specific key on connection and send it instead of just storing it)
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The handy thing about that system is if someone gives out their clean account to dirty people, they will make it dirty and it will be the original account holders fault for letting them use it.
There will always be ways of getting round measures. All we can do is make it as inconvenient as possible to do so.
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This idea probably wouldnt be very do-able until trem 2...
Get the PROCESSOR serial# and build the guid from it. Put the code to generate the guid in the CGAME, and make the pure-check less hackable. REQUIRE that the CGAME and GAME be built at the same time and have each server op put some lock-string/what-not in one of the bg_* files to enforce it.
Still not fool-proof, but might work, although it probably would require each server to in effect be running their own mod. (might not be bad, as it would somewhat keep people to their favorite servers)
This also might turn the client into little more than the interpreter of the CGAME and UI qvms.
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*sigh*
Punkbuster - crap, and since opensource game worthless
GUIDS - can be changed
Hardware based GUIDS - can change hardware ids, can spoof hardware ids. Ever heard of punkbuster hardware ban? Its been spoofed and broken, and it isnt open source.
Karma system - cheaters create a 'new player', so they have 0 karma. you cant ban everyone with 0 karma because then nobody new would play
pure check- easily hackable
if you try to make some sort of anticheat or fancy thing that isnt serverside but is clientside, the opensource aspect causes it to fail because you can just compile the client with protection removed and spoof crc or whatever verifies.
option? update game to change stuff so current cheat doesnt work anymore
<3
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An updated game means an updated bot.
Now that the hack has been released, people will start to add on to the code, changing it and, most likely, frequently updating it.
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A last note: With an open source game, it will be impossible to have a failsave system. The only thing one can do is to make it as hard as possible.
There will always be ways of getting round measures. All we can do is make it as inconvenient as possible to do so.
Yes, and I think that having to get a new email address to sign up to these forums for each time you got banned is one of the more tedious solutions:
- sign up to hotmail
- confirm hotmail address
- sign up to tremulous.net
- confirm signup to tremulous.net
The time difference between signing up to tremulous.net and for tremulous.net to send out the confirmation mail could be delayed programatically.
For those with not-so-dynamic-IPs simple IP subnet bans are still sufficient.
Most other solutions (except for the monetary solution) simply requires to restart the client after reconfigure GUID/MAC/HD Serial and the griefer/cheater is back after 5 seconds.
And to repeat, we can't do anything to reliable make sure that someone (cheater and griefers) cant play trem ever, even with servers which are monitored 24/7. We can only come up with a solution that give server operators a bit more control and the players less aggrevation.
If every day atleast one cheater/griefer in the wide world discovers Tremulous and signs up and cheats/griefs on a server, there will be atleast every day some griefing/cheating happening. No single system can get rid of atleast a low bias of regular griefing.
option? update game to change stuff so current cheat doesnt work anymore
<3
Good idea, or even more simpler, make trem so it gets rid of the griefers and cheaters :D But more serious, this just calls for a race between developers and cheat writers, and you will have smarter and harder to detect cheating. Atleast an aimbotter is very recognizable by an experienced player.
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Yes, and I think that having to get a new email address to sign up to these forums for each time you got banned is one of the more tedious solutions:
- sign up to hotmail
- confirm hotmail address
- sign up to tremulous.net
- confirm signup to tremulous.net
The time difference between signing up to tremulous.net and for tremulous.net to send out the confirmation mail could be delayed programatically.
Two first steps are easily removed by using a disposable email service like mailinator (you'd have to track them all and ban them).
Artificially extending the duration of the registration process isn't that useful, because you can pipeline requests (submit a dozen registration requests and wait for all of them to complete).
Apart from this I wanted to reiterate that any hardware based UIDs are useless on current PCs, because they can easily be forged and the software modified to send forged UIDs. What would be needed is hardware that has cryptographically signed serial numbers (by the hardware manufacturer). TPM which will be included in future PCs may support that (but is evil for other reasons).
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Yes, and I think that having to get a new email address to sign up to these forums for each time you got banned is one of the more tedious solutions:
- sign up to hotmail
- confirm hotmail address
- sign up to tremulous.net
- confirm signup to tremulous.net
The time difference between signing up to tremulous.net and for tremulous.net to send out the confirmation mail could be delayed programatically.
Two first steps are easily removed by using a disposable email service like mailinator (you'd have to track them all and ban them).
Artificially extending the duration of the registration process isn't that useful, because you can pipeline requests (submit a dozen registration requests and wait for all of them to complete).
Apart from this I wanted to reiterate that any hardware based UIDs are useless on current PCs, because they can easily be forged and the software modified to send forged UIDs. What would be needed is hardware that has cryptographically signed serial numbers (by the hardware manufacturer). TPM which will be included in future PCs may support that (but is evil for other reasons).
Forging and Pipelining? Sounds to me like we're already on the right track since this is extra work for the hackster. We just need to keep asking ourselves if it would make their life harder if we want to know if it's worth it.
Now the trouble with these two examples are that I believe they could be done automatically once the necessary program is devised and created. After that it becomes a simple matter of downloading this program. Yet this 'simple matter' is still more work to do.
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Well when Null created the hack, and i tested it, it does NOT seem to work on a relic modded server. Wallhack worked, but the aimbot didnt. As null told me, its because the aimbot depends on values in-game that almost never change. I havent tested it on any other mods, but i can say that it doesnt work on relic. If there was a way to make the aimbot variables constantly change, the aimbot wouldnt work would it? How to do this im not sure, but you would need an aimbot coder to look for the values that the aimbot uses. One thing for sure is that there are memory based aimbots, and GL based aimbots. This however IMO would be pretty hard to find all of the values and make them constantly change...
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Well when Null created the hack, and i tested it, it does NOT seem to work on a relic modded server. Wallhack worked, but the aimbot didnt. As null told me, its because the aimbot depends on values in-game that almost never change. I havent tested it on any other mods, but i can say that it doesnt work on relic. If there was a way to make the aimbot variables constantly change, the aimbot wouldnt work would it? How to do this im not sure, but you would need an aimbot coder to look for the values that the aimbot uses. One thing for sure is that there are memory based aimbots, and GL based aimbots. This however IMO would be pretty hard to find all of the values and make them constantly change...
Please stop this mental diarrhea.
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What has he said wrong? It looks like he's trying to share information about aimbot development.
It's posts like yours, that start needless flaming. =/
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its not mental diarrhea... and this was a long time ago... as I said, i stopped using it quite some time ago...
my point is, you need to have changing values allowing bots not being able to work... If u got variable X staying at X, but it changes to Y this game, next game changes to Z, then this would prevent bots... DUH just giving a suggestion
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Thanks Evlesoa. For your intent to help and your restraint to sleekslacker's comment.
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Lol thx... im trying to help out the community here, and you guys r like "OMFG HAXX" and some people dont understand the difference between HAVING an aimbot, and actually USING it...
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Well when Null created the hack, and i tested it, it does NOT seem to work on a relic modded server. Wallhack worked, but the aimbot didnt. As null told me, its because the aimbot depends on values in-game that almost never change. I havent tested it on any other mods, but i can say that it doesnt work on relic. If there was a way to make the aimbot variables constantly change, the aimbot wouldnt work would it? How to do this im not sure, but you would need an aimbot coder to look for the values that the aimbot uses. One thing for sure is that there are memory based aimbots, and GL based aimbots. This however IMO would be pretty hard to find all of the values and make them constantly change...
Please stop this mental diarrhea.
Help. If you're not gonna help, gtfo.
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If you have constantly changing values then how does the cgame know what to expect? They are different on relic servers because you are using different VMs to play. We can't cycle our VMs every other week to fight aimbots, and it's probably trivial to adjust anyway.
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What he said didn't make any sense.
If u got variable X staying at X, but it changes to Y this game, next game changes to Z, then this would prevent bots
????? wtf ?
Since Tremulous is an open source software, anyone can make a hack that fits any kind of mods. All it takes is effort and persistence. Null didn't test and adapt the hack for relic mod. Doesn't mean that making a slightly different mod will stop those hacks dead.
Actually my point is, you are talking rubbish.
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What he said didn't make any sense.
If u got variable X staying at X, but it changes to Y this game, next game changes to Z, then this would prevent bots
????? wtf ?
Since Tremulous is an open source software, anyone can make a hack that fits any kind of mods. All it takes is effort and persistence. Null didn't test and adapt the hack for relic mod.
My point is, you are talking rubbish.
No its not rubbish... because as Null said the aimbot he created only went with few values in tremulous that didnt change. In Relic mod, the value X (lets say the aimbot is attached to value X) has been changed to Y, then the aimbot wont function. In Normal tremulous it works because it re-attaches itself to X, as it finds it there again. Its like a mutation, if it changes then it cannot be vaccined until found. If it doesnt change, we know what type of a bacteria it is. Same as here, aimbot doesnt mutate, but Tremulous's values do... causing it to not function...
Not the best example, but it works
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As I said earlier, he can just look at relic's source code and adapt his hack according to the changes. What you are describing is like a bug in his aimbot. If he is not lazy he can fix it quickly.
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No its not rubbish...
yes it is rubbish, just because he took an existing q3 aimbot and changed a few headers to make it work with trem 1.1 doesn't mean it isn't rediculously easy to change it to work with the current vms, or to make it completely independent of the vms.
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UGG!!! thats not what im saying...
Im saying: DYNAMIC GUID this means... GUID changes constantly correct?
What IF: Tremulous's values and variables were dynamic, and changed? Ex; Variable X that aimbot attaches to, changes constantly, causing it not to function... or a detection system of some sort... you cant adapt an aimbot to follow a value that constantly changes, it would be pretty hard...
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UGG!!! thats not what im saying...
Im saying: DYNAMIC GUID this means... GUID changes constantly correct?
What IF: Tremulous's values and variables were dynamic, and changed? Ex; Variable X that aimbot attaches to, changes constantly, causing it not to function... or a detection system of some sort... you cant adapt an aimbot to follow a value that constantly changes, it would be pretty hard...
you can't adapt the client to follow that variable either, but it takes much less time to update an aimbot than to update trem and get all 500,000 players to download a new copy.
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If he has the source code, he can figure out the pattern in which the variables are changed ( I still don't see how changing variables can stop them hacks, all I know is you are changing the function / data structure interface between the VMs ). If you have the source code, you can go around any measures taken to stop these hacks. To win against them, you need to make sure their effort takes longer and longer time until it becomes not so worthy to do.
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Have you guys thought of getting punkbuster to work with this quake 3 based game? I doubt it would have to be modified that much to work with tremulous. after all they have it for wolfenstien et, quake 3, quake 4 ect.
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Have you guys thought of getting punkbuster to work with this quake 3 based game? I doubt it would have to be modified that much to work with tremulous. after all they have it for wolfenstien et, quake 3, quake 4 ect.
evilbalance will never grant trem a license for punkbuster, and it doesn't even stop determined cheaters. the only thing it does is add a closed source component to tremulous.
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Sorry to copy/paste that content with excessive references to UT...
http://www.battleye.com/
BattlEye integration into Urban Terror! [ 01.04.2007 • 03:00 ]
The BattlEye Anti-Cheat Engine will support the upcoming release of Urban Terror v4.0 (standalone) with its powerful capabilities.
Urban Terror will be the first game to use the BE Client on Linux as well. In addition, this marks the fundamental change of the BattlEye system: BattlEye will no longer require a central master server but use the separate BE Server module directly integrated into the game server.
The game will be released shortly. And that's no April's fool! Check www.urbanterror.net for more information.
http://urbanterror.net/news.php?item.130.1
When using Urban Terror without Quake 3 Arena (using ioUrbanTerror), it's not possible to use PunkBuster. Although it's possible to have a game without an anti-cheat system, we all know it's better to have a protection from at least the public cheats that are out there.
We are therefore glad to report that the developer of BattlEye agreed to make BattlEye support available for ioUrbanTerror. It's not yet sure if it will be available as soon as Urban Terror is released, but it can easily be added later with an ioUrbanTerror update if needed. If this anti-cheat system turns out to work well, there's no reason to keep using PunkBuster any longer, which means the community will no longer be split up between old school and new players.
Although this is very good news, there's also a drawback. BattlEye works on Linux and Windows only. It does not support Mac clients (yet). The developer did say there's a possibility of support for Mac clients in the future, if a good Mac coder can help accomplish it. As a temporary 'solution', Mac users can play at servers that don't use BattlEye, or use bootcamp to play though Windows. We are aware of the great community members out there that use Macs and we regret that it isn't available for them from the start, but we believe the importance of having an anti-cheat system outweighs this fact.
http://www.battleye.com/info.html
The Engine
The BattlEye system consists of the BE Master Server and the BE Client, using the game server like a proxy to communicate with each other. The BE Client runs within the game, allowing best possible detection of cheats.
BattlEye scans the game and the system in RAM and on HDD, mainly using generic methods that globally catch all cheats/hacks of one type (including private ones as far as possible).
In order to work, BattlEye requires absolutely no user input or server-side administration - it comes as is and does its job independently. This also applies on the effective auto-update system which works reliably flawlessly and thus ensures that each player is always up-to-date.
Furthermore BattlEye has no special system requirements. It runs on every machine, needs only little resources (CPU/bandwidth) and, for example, will never force you to play with administrator rights. The player simply will not notice that BattlEye is running in the background.
BattlEye + Tremulous?
Or is it a noob anti-cheat system?
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also punkbuster is crap and easily beaten
Apart from this I wanted to reiterate that any hardware based UIDs are useless on current PCs, because they can easily be forged and the software modified to send forged UIDs. What would be needed is hardware that has cryptographically signed serial numbers (by the hardware manufacturer). TPM which will be included in future PCs may support that (but is evil for other reasons).
since trem is open source, all you have to do is take the final string right before sent and change it to make it fake
evel: that wont work either, if relic is open source it can easily be owned. also, even if not open source you can find addys to all the vars you need and hack it like that
with open source you cant really stop cheats, you can only delay them
also, the aimbot was not just a modified quake3 hook, was coded by hand especially for trem.
the best option (or at least a smart one) would be a closed source anticheat that is loaded by game client and can be enabled or disabled, because at least then you can just update anticheat without updating game.. or better yet you can have some sort of detection
also, i admit im surprised by how smart the trem commun seems to be, most are idiots like "OMFG CHEETSZ DEV PLZ STOP EM" instead of actually having ideas ;)
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first code a real aimbot
it is pretty lame to use ogc as it is with a game that where you hit matters
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I think the one of the points that Evlesoa is trying to say is that the more you change the trem code from the standard q3 engine code, the more work it is to adapt an existing q3 aimbot for trem. And that point is valid. It doesn't mean it makes it impossible to write an aimbot code for trem. But its still a valid suggestion that doesn't deserve flaming.
Also the dynamic changing of trem values to which both the client and aimbot code needs to adapt to is an interesting one, also if this doesn't make it impossible to write an aimbotcode for trem.
But I am having another thought. Though there is a certain amount of players that seem to be using aimbots, maybe this is all not such a big problem. How often do i actually encounter a cheater or a griefer. Its not that often.
Aimbots are easy to detect. The demos provided by d0t, Nux and others proof this. I'd be much more worried by hacks and cheats that are not that easy to spot. But then again, if they are not that easy to spot, how effective can they be? Maybe we don't need a better system. Servers like Wrath proof that you can have many fun rounds, even weeks without big disturbances.
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Let's ban all Earth IP addresses like we did with Poland, that will most definately stop the botses.
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first code a real aimbot
it is pretty lame to use ogc as it is with a game that where you hit matters
if that is the null im thinking then he did code a bot and a really damn good one. but having idea's how to stop it or get around it is pretty kewl to see.
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BattlEye + Tremulous?
Or is it a noob anti-cheat system?
When I last looked at it, it was trivial to bypass for anyone who knows their stuff and isn't just a script kiddie. I don't know if any improvements have been made since then though and I don't know if the cheaters in Tremulous are determined hackers or just kiddies. The main issue with a Tremulous anticheat is compatibility - any client side anticheat has to work on Windows, Linux and Mac given how diverse Tremulous is.
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long time no see r1ch, i remember you from diablo..
anyways, aimbots can get a lot harder to detect. mine is a very simple, more like a 'demo' cheat rather then a full fledged thing. i could make it a lot more complex if you want, but i doubt you want that :p
and f0rq, thx, ill take that as a compliment
I think the one of the points that Evlesoa is trying to say is that the more you change the trem code from the standard q3 engine code, the more work it is to adapt an existing q3 aimbot for trem.
maybe harder to copy and paste.. but not much harder to code for because you still are following a lot of quake3
Also the dynamic changing of trem values to which both the client and aimbot code needs to adapt to is an interesting one
its a "cool" idea, but wtf do you actually mean :p
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http://www.battleye.com/
it's not worth forcing tremulous back into contrib just for something that won't stop determined cheaters.
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Are you saying we shouldn't discourage the majority of lazy cheaters because we won't stop the few determined ones?
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Also the dynamic changing of trem values to which both the client and aimbot code needs to adapt to is an interesting one
its a "cool" idea, but wtf do you actually mean :p
As null told me, its because the aimbot depends on values in-game that almost never change.
Since the idea doesn't work, I am not sure its worth it to elaborate on it. I just wanted to say that the idea sounds "cool" too and doesnt deserve flaming.
Are you saying we shouldn't discourage the majority of lazy cheaters because we won't stop the few determined ones?
Determined ones will always put up their methods for download to feed the lazy ones :D
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How about instead of trying to prevent bots, unpure clients, h4x, etc. from connecting, the servers implement some form of honeypot/hack detection to identify and kick/ban/publicly humiliate offenders based on playing style and 'human' characteristics.
Two possible honeypots come to mind:
1 - place a 'dummy' in the view of the players randomly, just for a few frames. It should be too quick for most players to notice, let alone take aim at. If it gets (accurately) shot at, then the server has good reason to suspect a bot may be in use, so do it a few more times in various different ways to try to confirm or deny that suspicion. The dummy must have all of the attributes of a real player (maybe those of another real player in that game) so that it cannot easily be distinguished by the bot.
2 - (a bit less useful) as per above, but have the 'dummy' come running around a corner from the player, but dissapear just before actually becoming visible - if the player shoots in the direction of that corner within 100ms, suspect wallhack. (NB: this has a weakness - the hack/player may be smart enough to listen for movement sounds. Still good if dummy is a dretch or in situations where there is a noisy fight nearby)
In addition, the servers should look for players that do strange things like aiming 'too' perfectly, etc. Players that are well known to be insanely good will need exceptions in place so they don't get falsely identified.
Advantages over most other suggestions here so far:
- Server side, so to update it does not require any update to client software
- Server side, so it's not possible to hack around it and/or disable it
- Not reliant on any sort of forgeable GUID, hardware id, etc.
- Can be disabled for known good GUIDs, admin levels, etc per server
Dissadvantages / weaknesses:
- Bandwidth and proccessing requirements on server
- Intelligent bots may be able avoid certain honeypots
- A constant race between devs and h4x to outsmart each other
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I've been shown tricks by an anonymous player to make the aimbot seem more human like. It doesn't land as many hits, but it's still a force to be reconed with. The only real way to detect botters now is with the 360* field of view.
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It's been said before that the best defence against pretty much everything is good administration. Obviously you can't have admins on everywhere all the time - but there's likely to be at least somewhere that has an admin on at any given time. So how about a system to let you see which servers are administrated from the server browser? That way we can better judge where we can go safe in the knowledge that problems will be dealt with promptly.
Also the r1admin's system of notifying everyone when an admin connects
is a step in the right direction, imo.
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That's a great idea!
Not just for preventing botting, but just in general.
I'm suprised that hasn't been thought of before. o_o
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It's been said before that the best defence against pretty much everything is good administration. Obviously you can't have admins on everywhere all the time - but there's likely to be at least somewhere that has an admin on at any given time. So how about a system to let you see which servers are administrated from the server browser? That way we can better judge where we can go safe in the knowledge that problems will be dealt with promptly.
Also the r1admin's system of notifying everyone when an admin connects
is a step in the right direction, imo.
Yes and the cheaters and griefers would be able to go to the well-known servers when they are unadminned at first glance.
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Yes and the cheaters and griefers would be able to go to the well-known servers when they are unadminned at first glance.
They can have fun aiming perfectly at acid tubes on their own.
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haha... administration is perhaps the most powerful anti-cheat tool out there... Im guessing those that are learning coding adapt q3 aimbots to trem, but those experienced enough make their own. Also for human aiming, its not a hard thing to do, you just make it aim behind the target slightly, which will seem / appear to the target that you are a good player but cant get every shot in. This bot doesnt exactly do human aiming, but there are ways of doing it that a few people know.
Sometimes bots that have added human aiming, seem a lot like the player, because the aiming isnt jerky, its rather sluggish, and smooth. It also doesnt aim thru walls, even if you can see the target thru walls. So one way or another, there are ways of masking up (or at least temporarily) the use of an aimbot...
I think the only thing Trem can do, as null said, is detection. If something is dependent on a variable, then trem scans the startup client, and if it finds something, it attempts to detach it, if that fails gives an error and shuts down. They do this with other games like GunZ, with X-TRAP (AKA X-Crap)
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Maybe its too simple for our aimbotters,but my brother ( a.k.a. Critical ), told me witch "hardware component" u could use. It is MAC Address of netwrok card.
Anyone can change their MAC address to anything they wish at any time: even in windows, and without installing any additional software.
What if it was done off the cable/dsl modem MAC address? If you change that MAC address, you no longer have internet service as most provisioning of modems is done from that unique address. It won't help with dial-up users, but...
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It still doesn't matter because the client can send us whatever it likes and claim that it's the MAC address of the modem. Unless we have an external verification method, it's no more secure than the GUID system.
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this thread has a crap content of 99.99%.
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this thread has a crap content of 99.99%.
all due to posting like that
and yes, admins are the best tools but that doesnt mean you should depend on them
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this thread has a crap content of 99.99%.
all due to posting like that
You agree AND you say he's talking crap?
I'd say it isn't 99.99%, but if gareth keeps posting it might be. =)
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I just want to refer to this comment: http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=57506#57506
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This is much, much worse than a double post, it's a multi-thread double post! :) But I wanted it known, so people can feel as if they are taking meaningful action (to what degree they can) by hopefully passing their information along to people who can do something about it, the admins.
Folks, you will help servers a lot if you demo these occurrences and report them to the server. Reporting them here means we all look at the demo and think "yup, that's an aimbotter" but are powerless to do anything. Reporting it to the server means that the operator can IP ban them, or even report them to other operators if they should decide to.
The problem with demos here is that people who can do anything about it have only the name to go on, something which can generally be faked easily. Server admins won't see the IP of that name, something which is not so easily faked.
If you can't find out how to contact the server's operator/admins (hey, I can be that dense sometimes...lot of times... :-P ) and you feel you must post here, try to include the server it was seen on, and the date, time, and timezone! This greatly helps admins parse the logfiles for any information that can be gathered from them.
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Can't you just use cyberpunk or programs like that? :S
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At least they are reporting it. Also all the server owners may not look here, but alot of admins do. We admins can't really do anything based on a name though. We need an IP.
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Folks, you will help servers a lot if you demo these occurrences and report them to the server. Reporting them here means we all look at the demo and think "yup, that's an aimbotter" but are powerless to do anything. Reporting it to the server means that the operator can IP ban them, or even report them to other operators if they should decide to.
I think its easier and makes more sense if server admins come to the forums in the first place. I suspect like most greifing aimbotters won't keep hitting up just a single server, and this can give advance notice to admins who have yet to be hit. It also can give them an idea of what to look for and what aliases the botters are using. Banning someone on sight without catching them doing it isn't good, but with a name and an idea of what it looks like these posts can help admins more than direct reporting.
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I've been shown tricks by an anonymous player to make the aimbot seem more human like. It doesn't land as many hits, but it's still a force to be reconed with. The only real way to detect botters now is with the 360* field of view.
oh another aimbot searcher
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just a laugh for everyone.. sent to me in pm.
From: gundown on: Today at 04:30:12 PM
how do i disable ads on aimbot please i would like to learn how.
email is
hassanjamalyusuf@yahoo.com
please i know your busy but could u please help a player out.
Yep, hes quitting alright! silly thing is, all he has to do is not hit "delete"
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Well there's been a lot of posts about who aimbots and who doesn't. They don't have guid's so they'll just change their name and knowing who aimbots and who doesn't as for random people won't really do much.
I think if someone finds out that someone really unexpected is aimbotting, some Tremulous player who's aimbotting makes you go "O...mah...gawshness.....I can't believe HE'D do this....." is aimbotting, that should be posted. But for now, this spread has gotten a little too far and I think it'd be best to refrain from posting every single aimbotter video.
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just a laugh for everyone.. sent to me in pm.
From: gundown on: Today at 04:30:12 PM
how do i disable ads on aimbot please i would like to learn how.
email is
hassanjamalyusuf@yahoo.com
please i know your busy but could u please help a player out.
Yep, hes quitting alright! silly thing is, all he has to do is not hit "delete"
BWAHAHHHA That made be drink some lmaonade BWAHAHAHA!! what a fking noob...
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evlesoa it is you who led null here
you deserve a ban
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whats an injector to the tremulous.exe file? GH clan accused me of aimbotting even if i have a GUID and say i use one of these injectors. i only play w/ skill and their dretchs sux so it wus easy to kill.
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just a laugh for everyone.. sent to me in pm.
From: gundown on: Today at 04:30:12 PM
how do i disable ads on aimbot please i would like to learn how.
email is
hassanjamalyusuf@yahoo.com
please i know your busy but could u please help a player out.
Yep, hes quitting alright! silly thing is, all he has to do is not hit "delete"
BWAHAHHHA That made be drink some lmaonade BWAHAHAHA!! what a fking noob...
He can rewrite that ad, also, somewhere. Or just unbind delete, right?
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what does unbind del have to do with anything?
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whats an injector to the tremulous.exe file?
injector is the program that puts a dll into a program, or in terms of tremulous hacking puts the hack inside of the game.
also, you cannot unbind delete - but you can change the message through hex editing or even a recompile.
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I should be banned for leading Null here? LOL! dont make me die of laughter... it is not ME who lead anyone here... this development began what... a year ago? Work on the hack began before ANYONE knew it, i mean, he told me when he was half way thru it... then he scrapped it, and restarted. It was so long ago, its last year news. So dont say "ME" cuz i bet he knew it before that.
Yea... it probably was me who got the word about tremulous, but from time to time I started seeing hack posts, and so... Null made something lol
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Don't tell the magic name!! Or people will start searching for it!
Edit: He already removed it from the above post.
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Stuff
Well i'm sure you tried your best to convince him not to make it and tried to foil him at every turn and even threatened to smack his mother around a bit.. so we must appreciate the effort and the consideration you gave to the tremulous community.
Don't tell the magic name!! Or people will start searching for it!
Before anyone wants to be a smartass, we have a very hostile policy towards this type of thing so you're going to really really want to think this through and think of how much you love your mother and her rosy cheeks.
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Warrior made that statement in good faith regarding a certain noun which combined with another well known noun on this forum could lead people to a bot.
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You're talking about the website adress?
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I'm talking about the kind of people with the intensivly highly trained level of being able to use google and a direct connection between a word and a working bot.
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why do some idiots posting link to this lame null aimbot constantly?
I think Null or whoever created this aimbot is really stupid and cant code shit
not that I am against a trem aimbot
but tremulous is opensource and they are still hooking the binary
this aimbot does not even qualify as an aimbot
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why do some idiots posting link to this lame null aimbot constantly?
I think Null or whoever created this aimbot is really stupid and cant code shit
not that I am against a trem aimbot
but tremulous is opensource and they are still hooking the binary
this aimbot does not even qualify as an aimbot
Are you implying that you can do better?
We should have a bot-off.
fork's bot vs null's bot.
Then, we'll see who has the l33ter kodez.
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why do some idiots posting link to this lame null aimbot constantly?
I think Null or whoever created this aimbot is really stupid and cant code shit
not that I am against a trem aimbot
but tremulous is opensource and they are still hooking the binary
this aimbot does not even qualify as an aimbot
Are you implying that you can do better?
We should have a bot-off.
fork's bot vs null's bot.
Then, we'll see who has the l33ter kodez.
null has no aimbot ... he didnt coded anything
yes I have an aimbot that pwnz em all. if someday tremulous pisses me off I will release it.
my aimbot has some great features
aims at the weakest target
doesnt aim too fast (accelerated movement but not slow)
aims at the head if the target is near
aims at some random location if thetarget is far away
doesnt lock on targets too much selects the slowest moving target if possible
has some other features
btw plague bringer you are like a whistle in the wind
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We should make the GUIDs hardware based, so re-installing Tremulous would not change it. This way, we would have a greater chance of banning cheaters. We should also implement an online database, which tracks all banned GUIDs. If a GUID is banned from several servers (with different IPs), the GUID gets globally banned.
Maybe this is to late but I like DASPRid's idea. :-?
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Forque... have you ever made hacks / cheats for any game? I think not... Null has been in the aimbot business ever since Wolfenstein ET came out... so why dontcha just stop pulling that trigger, y'a trigger happy hillbilly!
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btw plague bringer you are like a whistle in the wind
...
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Forque... have you ever made hacks / cheats for any game? I think not... Null has been in the aimbot business ever since Wolfenstein ET came out... so why dontcha just stop pulling that trigger, y'a trigger happy hillbilly!
sure thing
but why is he using ogc?
being in the aimbot business means nothing. it doesnt mean you are a good coder it doesnt even mean you are a good aimbot coder.
and yes I made several hacks I am serious about my aimbot
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whats with OGC? I mean whats wrong with it... he used C-Dev or something like that... i dont see why u guys are saying his work is crap
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Forque... have you ever made hacks / cheats for any game? I think not... Null has been in the aimbot business ever since Wolfenstein ET came out... so why dontcha just stop pulling that trigger, y'a trigger happy hillbilly!
If .f0rqu3's aimbot does all that I am sincerely impressed. Null can suck a cock.
.f0rqu3 <3
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because it is not his work. he did nothing at all.
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[size=0]Wtf u mean not his work... you looked at source and you see that he didnt make it? Is that what you are saying... ?[/size]
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Wtf u mean not his work... you looked at source and you see that he didnt make it? Is that what you are saying... ?
if he is not "noskill" no
"//Copyright (C) 2003 noskill" from the original ogc
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[size=0]well he goes by many names... il ask him about it tho[/size]
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Evlesoa, please stop posting in small font. The novelty has worn off and so anything posted as such I will ignore from now on.
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evl: I told you, you dont have to defend me. I honestly dont care what he says
Work on the hack began before ANYONE knew it, i mean, he told me when he was half way thru it... then he scrapped it, and restarted. It was so long ago, its last year news. So dont say "ME" cuz i bet he knew it before that.
no, this is false. work on the hack began about 2 days before it was released. Forq: if you dont like my coding or dont like something about it, I honestly dont care. Feel free to insult me based on a function I used (which if you notice was commented as saying it was from ogc - would someone change the design of a wheel to a square even though the circle works perfectly?)
I dont care about your "awesome" bot, because I could make all those features without any difficulty. The reason I havent? Because I dont even play tremulous much, I was just messing around. You play the game, you know stuff about it. If you can code and know the source (or the quake3 source) decently, you can make all those features no problem. What makes a tremulous bot good? Prediction and features. Mine has a very basic prediction, and since it was made in 2 days, very basic features. You play the game, so you can obviously figure out the tweaks needed that make it perfect - but I guarantee you I could make something that would kick your ass.
Oh, and btw. Lets see a screen or two so your not just pulling it out of your ass. If your so good at making cheats, why dont YOU help them make an anticheat?
Looks like I ended up with a long post after all eh? :P
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...
first of all you dont know anything because you could implement ogc functionality in trem itself. remember it is open source. creating a hook app is kinda lame for an open source app
and cheat and anticheat are completely different. cheats are easy to make
anticheat is harder and sometimes not even possible
you wont get any screenie or anything. I dont need to prove you anything. ( so you are free to think I am pulling it out of my ass I dont care )
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Just a friendly reminder in this hacker standoff. Don't let anything particular slip in the heat of discussion. With this I am referring to direct and indirect leads for people to obtain working aimbots, aimbotcode or sites which make them available. This also includes vague references towards the names of certain aimbots and known hacker sites which can easily be found through google should their exact names or abbreviations be known.
You are both within limits for now but if I you really wish to continue this may I suggest the modifications subforum since that is were all the coding stuff happens anyway.
Proceed.
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first of all you dont know anything because you could implement ogc functionality in trem itself.
Why? So that people would have to download an exe and replace it? That doesnt make any sense. Its much easier to be able to switch between hack and regular game by having a version with an injector.
creating a hook app is kinda lame for an open source app
As I said above, its so that you can switch between using cheats and not.
and cheat and anticheat are completely different. cheats are easy to make
anticheat is harder and sometimes not even possible
Uh, no? Anticheats are extremely similar to cheats in some aspects... I could make a decent anticheat for tremulous very quickly and using ONLY, yes, ONLY the same methods used to make certain cheats...
You are both within limits for now but if I you really wish to continue this may I suggest the modifications subforum since that is were all the coding stuff happens anyway.
Im not trying to go offtopic - we will be ontopic again soon because anything he says after this is useless since the above undeniable fact :)
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1)g_aimbot 1/0 (really easy) you can switch anytime you want
try to understand how the engine works
2)anticheat lol
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1)g_aimbot 1/0 (really easy) you can switch anytime you want
try to understand how the engine works
2)anticheat lol
mods.. maybe a /split :)
1. and distribution?
2. so you are just bragging bout your cheating skills then instead of trying to help? or is it just that you have no comeback?
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client + qvm
and dont forget you are the one giving ppl your aimbot
now talking about helping ...rofl
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client + qvm
and dont forget you are the one giving ppl your aimbot
now talking about helping ...rofl
what about client+qvm? thats not even a decent response. There are a ton of ways an anticheat could be created, so dont try to just say "client + qvm" and expect Ill bow to your incredible knowledge. How about loading a dll or qvm through client thats closed source?
Your the one who seems to think your hot shit yet who plays trem, so why not use your hot shit skills to help ;)
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I am talking about tremulous
and it is open source
but I think you dont understand this
and as I said I dont need to prove anything to you
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i'm a pretty 1337 coder myself. i once made a C++ program that converted feet to meters and back.
p.s. go to aim.com for the aimbot.
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my aimbot has some great features
aims at the weakest target
doesnt aim too fast (accelerated movement but not slow)
aims at the head if the target is near
aims at some random location if thetarget is far away
doesnt lock on targets too much selects the slowest moving target if possible
has some other features
OOOOhhhh, Aaaahhh,
Do want that!! :D
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Null, it's unfortunate that you claim that an anticheat would be just as easy as a cheat, considering which you've subjected the tremulous community to.
You may be surprised to find out that many of us have been around for a while, and like the game quite a bit. Many of our coders and I'm sure all of our dev's have the ability to create aimbots but have not (not distributed them anyways). I can only guess that it is at least partially out of respect for the unique type of game that tremulous is.
Aside from the questionable usefulness of an aimbot in trem, it is understandable why you would take the challenge to create an aimbot for it. It's fun, it's a challenge. Your choice to distribute it is a seperate choice and action altogether.
Fortunately, though I'd love to not believe in Karma, I consistently see examples of it appear before me. Hope you don't get stung too bad.
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It's fun, it's a challenge. Your choice to distribute it is a seperate choice and action altogether.
it's copying a few tremulous headers over the q3 ones and typing 'make'
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I am talking about tremulous
and it is open source
but I think you dont understand this
and as I said I dont need to prove anything to you
loading a closed source anticheat dll.. *yawn*
at syscall / vm_create / vm_call look for JMP, JNZ, JZ, etc then if found flag as cheat... anticheat made!
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Pardon me, but we ARE talking about ruining the game for everyone, correct? D: Well, I for one think that it would NOT be very cool to ruin it.
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I am talking about tremulous
and it is open source
but I think you dont understand this
and as I said I dont need to prove anything to you
loading a closed source anticheat dll.. *yawn*
at syscall / vm_create / vm_call look for JMP, JNZ, JZ, etc then if found flag as cheat... anticheat made!
ignoring the obvious workarounds for that solution, how do you plan to compile that on windows/mac os x/just about every bsd/linux/solaris/irix/etc. on x86,x86_64,ppc,IA64,and probably sparc and alpha too?
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good if you think that will work, proceed, and make an anticheat
but I know you are not after anticheat just trying to chain the convo
and you dont get my point:
trem is open source. any binary level hooking/change is stupid
you are the one who tweaked ogc to run with trem and distributed it
you wont get any replies
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f0rqu3 <3
anyway, right now because of that aimbot we only got tons of people using this aimbot, and therefore longer ban lists... i suppose it doesnt really matter after all, does it? :) servers with admins = no problem there, aimbotters will just get banned. servers without admins? well, why the hell do they even exist?
dodo
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you are the one who tweaked ogc to run with trem and distributed it
you wont get any replies
I believe he STATED that he coded it from scratch... read back and see
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ignoring the obvious workarounds for that solution, how do you plan to compile that on windows/mac os x/just about every bsd/linux/solaris/irix/etc. on x86,x86_64,ppc,IA64,and probably sparc and alpha too?
why bother figuring out for all? figure out for the ones that are hacked. or, another 'anticheat' would be a simple closed source mod dll that servers run with structs mixed around.
trem is open source. any binary level hooking/change is stupid
I said earlier, smaller file, easier to use.
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Just a little spam about f0rqu3's ET aimbot?
This whole text is a link to a youtube video. The opening clip says F0rc3 Demo. Im thinking it's our f0rqu3. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N85gsLsIQII&mode=related&search=)
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i doubt thats him... f0rc3 and f0rqu3 may look similar, but sorry, they probably are totally different people...
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I think that wider distribution of tjw's backport with guid built in would help.
Not so that we can track griefers, but so that we have a whitelist of known good players.
A good blacklist will never be as effective as a good whitelist. Indeed, by its very definition, a blacklist allows everyone (except blah blah and blah).
This, combined with competant admins can easily reduce the problem to a managable level. If aimbotters are forced to add in measures to the aimbot, such as slower movement, less than 100% accuracy, etc, in order to avoid suspicion, then they are reducing the effectiveness of the aimbot.
Back to my main point, I think a good step for this would be to distribute the backport on the main website, for example saying that the stock 1.1 version has been deprecated etc etc, or even just a brief blurb and a link. The client on the official site is hopelessly out of date.
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we (DretchStorm) are seeking a solution using the aimbots own system: prediction. if we can detect computed prediction, then aimbots can be spotted. the aimbots wouldnt be fixable because that would render them useless. I'm using a honeypot server to collect logs/data on aimbot prediction, also have copies of the [name withheld] aimbot source.
i'll let you know if i'm successful, so far it has been tricky but promising.
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Back when zbot and friends came out for Quake II, there wasn't even a cgame dll or anything that could be used client-side. Yet the bots were able to be detected through careful inspection of usercmds, looking for jitter and 'locking on' to targets. An unsophisticated aimbot will always do such things and thus be detectable to some degree in a similar manner. The fact Tremulous is open source and based on a game which already has a huge number of cheats makes it very easy to cheat as all the game data can be used to make an aimbot such as knowing exactly where each player is, your own velocity / aiming vector and input state, etc. While usercmd inspection may work for the current breed of aimbots, if they are still under development you can only expect them to get better.
The only real solutions are either a web of trust system or an anticheat. A web of trust would require guids for everyone and possibly work as a closed system where new players have to be referred by an existing player and any cheaters cause the referrers repuation to be decreased also. A closed source binary anticheat, given how diverse Tremulous is OS-wise, would not be an easy undertaking - even if the checks themselves were relatively simple.
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Cheating is problem. Not only in tremulous, but in all games. We should gather information about what can be done and what cant be done on this situatsion. Maybe there is a solution.
There are 3 places to look. Server, connection and client.
I think connection problem is solved by now. Using encryption methods to transfer information is good enough. if speed is needed you can combine encryption methods, saw a way, that XTEA key whose transfererd trough RSA key pair. Works pretty good. Anyway, enough for connection, it can be secure.
Server is a bit harder. Problem is, server sends alot information what client dont need. Like where every opponent is, even if its another side of map or sometimes even how many bullets he has in his gun. Less information you send, less things to cheat. Still, you must send needed information and cheats can still use it. So next thing to ask is, can server detect cheater on gameplay, not on startup. Must useless way is statistical, because there will be allways lucky bastards, who really shot sometimes n times row to head. Good idea is "honeypot"(proposed here). If you know what clients needs, then you know what he dont need. At random times, spawn a normal opponent there for some moments, where normal player dont see it. Like behind you if there is no one. If someone is cheating, it reacts and you can do something about it. Point is not only detecting cheaters, but making cheats useless. But downside is, its hard to find effective "honeypots" and they wont give 100% accurate results. There is a hard way to implement algorithms, that detect on server side certain patters of cheats, but in long term, its useless. Is there anything more you can do on server side?
Last thing is client. You can't control what client has on his computer. It can be anything, but trough network connections looks pretty much authentic. MD5 sums of files wont work:you can replace them to correct values and most important, self compiled binarys have their own md5 sum. I have a idea, but i dont know how practical it is. There are 2 things you can trust. Server and connection. So you can send some programs/scripts from server to client and run them there. Can that program quickly detect, if client machine is running some cheat programs? If answer is yes, can we use it? I imagine program itself is open source, but every server has its own key pair to crypt that program and ofcorse, program is usable only 1 time only. Basicly, you secure now that program, not runing client application. Maybe im running to wall, maybe it helps.
Ty for listening:)
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1 server sends the application
2 client DLs
3 client stops execution
4 runs his own version
5 sends wrong data
6 ...
7 PROFIT???
point: you cant trust any data coming from some random client
honeypot just wont work. it will just lead to more advanced aimbots
(+ suceessful or not you wont get the source from ghostshell XD)
web of trust is prone to abuse, and gonna keep lots of new players outside
(coming from r1ch, I am not exited)
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you can just use WPE Pro, cuz if the packets arent encrypted, you can easily manipulate the number of kills you get... or even better, kill a person remotely, or something...
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how?
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This whole thread is pointless. You can't stop the cheating. As suggested before, the best defense against this are good admins. Every single game I've ever played where cheating became common, the developers spent WAY too much time trying to keep up with it. Its just not worth it, especially since this is an opensource game. Just play on servers with good admins.
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how?
Well... im not sure if Tremulous' packets are encrypted, but if they are, you would have to do some extra work...
Lets say they arent tho...
WPE Pro is a basic Packet Editor known as Winsock Packet Editor (for those who dont know)
So what happens is, in some games where cheating with memory editors doesnt work, you can try a coding language (like C#, Pearl, VB etc...) and using WPE Pro, you can record the packets for a kill... or record the packets as a dretch (since it auto attacks) you can basically speed those packets up. A typical packet is in hex, and usually looks SIMILAR to this:
0013 002 0039 129 2930 992 1029 01929
2039 029 0293 029 0291 837 5939 29381
and so on... Now if you were to send those packets back to the server, you would basically speed up the bite... That is... if the server accepts them. There are games like DarkEden, where hackers literally ruined it... how you may ask? Oh no, not gold hack... but worse... CHARACTER ERASE HACK! Yes!! Believe it or not, WPE Pro is capable of doing that. It takes much research but once you figure out how to do it, you can practically erase any char from the server. Legal? I think so... but you might not, and im really not too clear with this issue... So technically you can send a crash packet, or something. So the point is, if you kill someone, and record that packet (its a bit hard to differentiate them apart, only by size im guessing) and if you get it, you can send it to the server, no matter where you are. This tells the character that you killed, DIED... what happens now, is pretty simple. The character doesnt have to be alive, but it tells the server that he just died (regardless of living / dead status, if you're smart ;P) and this causes your kills to rank up! There are a lot of tricks you can do, im just learning this stuff at a snail's pace since im kinda too lazy to shut off all my securities and shit or else it will be detected and its just a pain with a slow computer. But ya, as I said, you can basically do w/e u want with it.
Edit - Oh i forgot to mention, reason DarkEden shut down is mainly due to character erases... Another good example tho of hacking is able to use a heal packet. What you do is > Go to a character that heals (NPC?) And record packets... once you heal, play it back, and there you go... in that map you have infinite heal. Note: There are also hacks with DE that allows you to powerlevel off another character level 1-100 in a mere hour, and allows you to respawn in same map, by a simple packet send... I dont know hex too well, i wish i did :\
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good thing that doesn't (shouldn't?) work in trem, hit detection and weapons upgrades/evolves are controlled server side so packet snuffing doesn't work.
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quake3 does not work this way
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I didnt say it did... and i just got banned from [T] TremX :( and its packet SNIFFING
im just saying, it works for some... in GunZ for example, my friend made teleport to player (with massive on its an instant kill) where you press numpad 1-0 including the / * - and + and it teleports to that slot, with massive and causes them all to die... fun thing, i know he used packets for it, but he also used coding for it... but its an EXAMPLE of what you CAN do with packets
and reason i posted the dretch thing is cuz i know it doesnt work... so ppl wont try it
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Packet modification is useless in Tremulous, as far as I understand. The server knows - always - what you can do and doesn't allow you to do anything else. You don't send a kill packet to the server, a damage packet, or even a hit packet. All you send is "I'm firing" and the server checks if you hit, calculates your damage, and resolves deaths. The client has remarkably little control over this process.
It is true, however, that the client is told too much - but imagine for a moment the processing power involved in calculating what every client can see and thus deciding whether to tell them something is there. Let's not forget, either, that the client needs information on targets not in line of sight to properly generate sounds and helmet information.
Ideally, every frame would be generated by the server and streamed to the client, along with audio :P but clearly that's impossible with today's bandwidth and server specs etc.
Yeah, so good admins - what happened to my idea of telling people where to go? What, I ask you?
I'll write a patch sometime soon to detect if admins are present and put it in the serverinfo string (which clients will promptly ignore, but it's a start)
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Packet modification is useless in Tremulous, as far as I understand. The server knows - always - what you can do and doesn't allow you to do anything else. You don't send a kill packet to the server, a damage packet, or even a hit packet. All you send is "I'm firing" and the server checks if you hit, calculates your damage, and resolves deaths. The client has remarkably little control over this process.
It is true, however, that the client is told too much - but imagine for a moment the processing power involved in calculating what every client can see and thus deciding whether to tell them something is there. Let's not forget, either, that the client needs information on targets not in line of sight to properly generate sounds and helmet information.
Ideally, every frame would be generated by the server and streamed to the client, along with audio :P but clearly that's impossible with today's bandwidth and server specs etc.
Yeah, so good admins - what happened to my idea of telling people where to go? What, I ask you?
I'll write a patch sometime soon to detect if admins are present and put it in the serverinfo string (which clients will promptly ignore, but it's a start)
But the server still relies on what the client does... if you are in your base, the client tells the server that. What if you TRICK it into thinking you're in the OTHER team's base... after all, the client does control your location, and communicates with the server... Without the client communication, what the hell? The server isnt going to "Guess" where you are, it has to know some how...
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umm your position view angles etc are on server
player sends input only afaik
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Server: Client, you're in human base
Client: No, I'm in alien base
Server: Fuck off, you're in human base
Client: Ok, ok, I want to move to alien base
Server: No.
Client: I want to move forward? Also I'm looking up
Server: You're moving forward, and looking up. You're now a bit ahead of the human base.
Client: OK, more forward 4me
Server: There's a wall there.
Client: :(
Client: OK, I'm gonna kill this guy
Server: No you're not.
Client: Well, I'm looking in his direction in pressing fire.
Server: Kinda sucks that you're holding a ckit and he's a tyrant then? Back to human base for you.
Client: D:
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so what does the client do then??
It seems like runescape, the server decides everything...
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so what does the client do then??
It seems like runescape, the server decides everything...
the client draws a pretty picture and tells the server what buttons you push
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1 server sends the application
2 client DLs
3 client stops execution
4 runs his own version
5 sends wrong data
6 ...
7 PROFIT???
point: you cant trust any data coming from some random client
Yes, you cant trust any data. Point of that thing is, you now must secure this small application, not whole client. I dont know exactly if its possible. Since you must use it 1 time only, its not static. Since server knows what program is sended, he also knows what data he is expecting and it can be random, not just 0 or 1. Ideal is client runs a program, but haxxor cant read what that program does. I still dont know if its possible to secure one program like that.
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Yeah, so good admins - what happened to my idea of telling people where to go? What, I ask you?
I'll write a patch sometime soon to detect if admins are present and put it in the serverinfo string (which clients will promptly ignore, but it's a start)
I love this idea. I'll run that patch on OPP if you make one.
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Umm if admins are what...
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Server: Client, you're in human base
Client: No, I'm in alien base
Server: Fuck off, you're in human base
Client: Ok, ok, I want to move to alien base
Server: No.
Client: I want to move forward? Also I'm looking up
Server: You're moving forward, and looking up. You're now a bit ahead of the human base.
Client: OK, more forward 4me
Server: There's a wall there.
Client: :(
Client: OK, I'm gonna kill this guy
Server: No you're not.
Client: Well, I'm looking in his direction in pressing fire.
Server: Kinda sucks that you're holding a ckit and he's a tyrant then? Back to human base for you.
Client: D:
Haha nice description, and yes, it is VERY accurate of how it works.
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This thread needs to die.
Half of you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
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This thread needs to die.
Half of you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
I think YOU need to die, after what happened on virginia boom boom server
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I think
Objection!
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OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1970154)[/color][/size][/b]
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OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1970154)[/color][/size][/b]
yey hennersjection
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INJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1970154)[/color][/size][/b]
yey hennersjection
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I'm really angry an the general tremulous community.
Most of them don;t know how to play, don't spec me when I use any weapon, and yet, I find that I am a great sniper with md. This means that just about every fucker under the sun who does not know how to play bans me for being better than them.
They call anything better than them an aimbot.
Many of them, couldn;t even spell aimbot properly, but nevertheless, I get kicked anyways.
It is a pathetic bot. I've seen the code, and frankly I'm not impressed.
I could have done better myself.
What the tremulous community needs to recognize is that there is always a bigger fish. Unfortunately there are also masses of snotty, acne-covered fuck tard fifteen year olds, who don;t know how to play, and will use any excuse to kick better players even from their own team.
My clan is for all those who have been kicked/banned from servers for being better than the others, the ones that are kicked for "aimbotting" when they have no such thing.
Honsetly, the only people who understand this are some members of the C.K clan, the Saints clan, and doogie. (as far as I have seen)
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I've had problems with this before also.
Second to top killer with a shotty. "Plague, aimbot?"
Took 10 some dretches and a few goons with a pulse, some retard blabs out "OMG U KILLED SOMEONE WITH ONE SHOT FROM THE OTHER WAY."
I basically told him to fuck off and that I don't bot.
The world is full of fucking idiots, we just have to live with them.
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Honsetly, the only people who understand this are some members of the C.K clan, the Saints clan, and doogie. (as far as I have seen)
Oh no... you're wrong about that part buddy... they are rude fucks who accuse me of hacking and our whole clan after WE beat the Fu clan...
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well they do make joke crackshots...but D*S painsaw generally seems to accept the fact that i am a good snipe and not a botter, aside from a few casual morons.
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they are rude fucks who accuse me of hacking
Information (Info by Evlesoa)
attach .dll to ORIGINAL Tremulous.exe that come with.....
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they are rude fucks who accuse me of hacking
Information (Info by Evlesoa)
attach .dll to ORIGINAL Tremulous.exe that come with.....
+1 for ignorance and hypocrisy exposure.
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Does anyone have Evelosa's IP? I wanna go ahead and get his future ban out of the way.
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My IP is 69.86
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Ty
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ok... basically that IP is kinda useless cuz... i dont really play on any of ur gay servers, and even if u do ban me, i could care less... and... u only got what? 4 digits? you got another 6 to guess...
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Three words:
Subnet.
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Thats two words plague....
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No, "thats" is one word. Duh.
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:eek:
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I was closer then you >.>
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Nah, you're not getting the big picture! Its "Three words: Subnet" Where Three, words and subnet are counted within the statement, thus making it correct.
Damn I feel smart :P
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Yeah, I noticed that after I posted it, but yeah, HamStar's correct. You get a cookie.
(http://jolle.se/imgs/cookie.jpg)
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OMFG a cookie....but its too big to eat right now so I'll just put it in my bag with a bottomless pit (reference to pokemon)
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Look at all the fat and cholestrol and saturated fat <.<
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in JOOR MOTHAR
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Will a moderator please delete Invictus' and my posts in the [AC] clan topic in the clans section? It doesn't belong there, so I will repost it here. I'll post the demo later.
In this clan can i ACTUALLY USE AN MD WITHOUT BEING KICKED?
I'm really pissed now because Am|ne's server just banned me too, for saying i was aimbotting...but did they spec me....no.
He puts me on the team after taking me off, then pits me against the whole alien team and says "oh look at that no skill any more eh?"
Well no shit you little fucktard, humans work best in teams, that's why it a TEAM GAME.
Fuck.
Dretchstorm.
The Zuds.
SST for that noob that jumped in the way when i threw the gren....
Fragify.
Only D*S Painsaw>>> seems to undertsand that I snipe well, and that seems to be the only good server now anyways.
Well now I know your other posts are full of lies, you little shit. Four people were spectating you for about 2 games. No one was spectating you? Please. In fact, I have a demo. You're a fool. You also weren't pitted against the entire alien team by yourself - you had teammates. When Am|ne turned unlagged off, you couldn't kill ANYTHING. Not a single dretch. It didn't matter if you were pitted against the whole alien team anyway - you had enough time for each dretch, if you are as good as you say you are. You're nothing but a fool.
Humans play as a team, you're right. But you're the one who ALWAYS camps at s3 against tyrants with an MD. Fool.
Oh, and quite a number people on D*S Painsaw believe you hack. Including a few admins.
Don't pretend to be righteous.
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Congratulations go out to Evlesoa for getting all of Earthlinks NYC Cable customers banned from everywhere.
Maybe someone should complain to them, get him kicked...
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Why is that the exact ISP I use.
I'm cursed. :(
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Reminds me of the time when an eight-man team of mine went tyrant-hunting with all MDs. Bez was pissed when we took him down in 5 seconds' time. :)
</thread-jack>
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BAhahahahaha
You have a "demo" and you needed to turn off unlagged to test your suspicion? You have a demo and still have suspicions? You couldn't tell definitively and had to test it?
By the way, it takes some people a game or 3 to adjust to having/not having unlagged. Talk about a stacked test.
Sounds like he was kickin your ass and there were some sour grapes. You suspected an aimbot, but wasn't sure so you invented this seriously flawed test to find out, a test that, had you thought about it you would have realized he would more likely fail if he weren't using an aimbot.
Folks, there are plenty of demo's out there about aimbots. Go watch them. See how you can tell.
If you do ban someone for aimbotting and proceed to have an argument about it here, at least post a demo or STFU. It's your server, you can kick/ban who you want, but you don't need to waste our time with petty, impossible to verify accusations, use your own server's forums.
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I said I will post the demo when I have time to upload it.
It was suspicious because it's not Null's aimbot. Therefore making the other demos of Null's aimbot useless.
Most of us were actually convinced. Only one person wanted these 'tests' to eliminate his doubts.
Having to adjust to lagged - bullshit. He couldn't hit a SINGLE dretch, when before unlagged was turned off, he was killing them left and right, and around corners. That's not a fucking adjustment. Aimbots are probably designed differently for unlagged and lagged (leading, etc.)
We were completely convinced he was wallhacking, though.
I think you would be suspicious too, if someone suddenly came into your server and didn't miss a SINGLE MD shot (not even one) against any dretch, jumped around a corner and killed a dretch immediately, etc. His cursor, when specced, wasn't even on the dretch. I don't think even Orc had 100% accuracy.
But tuple, you must be right, seeing as how you were there. I'm sorry my post wasted so much of your time and annoyed you.
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Congratulations go out to Evlesoa for getting all of Earthlinks NYC Cable customers banned from everywhere.
Maybe someone should complain to them, get him kicked...
And this is my fault how? I told you, subnet doesnt mean shit, if you dont know the precise IP... ONCE again il say it...
Guess the other 6 numbers, or ban my subnet... BTW it was YOUR idea to do so, i'm not dumb enough to give out my full IP nubz
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I saw AppleJuice aimbotting!
I mean, he killed me, so he *must* have been cheating.
Lets all now ridicule him because of my unsubstantiated claims!
oh, and your sig is massive.
Edit @ Ev:
I assume you use DHCP, so we have no choice but to do a subnet.
And it is your fault, and your ISP will agree once we get all there customers who play to start complaining to them about it....
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Evlesoa it is your fault.
BTW I gotta upload that video of you being such an uber l33t haxx0r in the match with Fu.
You were also ghosting you little prick.
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BAhahahahaha
You have a "demo" and you needed to turn off unlagged to test your suspicion? You have a demo and still have suspicions? You couldn't tell definitively and had to test it?
By the way, it takes some people a game or 3 to adjust to having/not having unlagged. Talk about a stacked test.
Sounds like he was kickin your ass and there were some sour grapes. You suspected an aimbot, but wasn't sure so you invented this seriously flawed test to find out, a test that, had you thought about it you would have realized he would more likely fail if he weren't using an aimbot.
Folks, there are plenty of demo's out there about aimbots. Go watch them. See how you can tell.
If you do ban someone for aimbotting and proceed to have an argument about it here, at least post a demo or STFU. It's your server, you can kick/ban who you want, but you don't need to waste our time with petty, impossible to verify accusations, use your own server's forums.
My point exactly. No issue, I'm just not going to play, because mainly I have better things to do with my time.
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David don't be a moron. My post had none of the idiocy in yours. Thanks.
I don't hit stuff with every single shot (100% accuracy). My cursor is also actually ON THE ALIEN when I hit it.
Why doesn't everyone stfu until I post the demo? I was just defending the server against the lies Invictus posted (no one spectated him, etc.).
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David don't be a moron. My post had none of the idiocy in yours. Thanks.
I try my best.
I don't hit stuff with every single shot (100% accuracy). My cursor is also actually ON THE ALIEN when I hit it.
Its the whole 'hi cursor wasn't on the alien' thing that makes me think know your bullshitting.
The server uses the cross-hairs to work out where to shoot. Aimbots move the cross-hairs. So unless you're going to add 'cracking the server' to the list of accusations, get a life.
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//offtopic
Has anyone actually noticed that AppleJuice, among others, have decided to become e-police?
I mean look at all the demos he, and the others, have posted.
Moreso, who knows the definition of witchhunt (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3Awitchhunt&btnG=Search&meta=)?
Anyone see a correlation, or even just a similarity here?
I do.
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Use of "get a life" on the intertubes by number 53. That will be a 20 yard penalty.
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I won't pretend to know about your comment about crosshairs. You're probably right. But that doesn't invalidate my other points. I'll stop repeating myself, though. So far, you've only responded to one of my points, and immaturely at that.
For your information, I wasn't playing, so no, my ass wasn't handed to me. Neither were the spectators.
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//offtopic
Has anyone actually noticed that AppleJuice, among others, have decided to become e-police?
I mean look at all the demos he, and the others, have posted.
Moreso, who knows the definition of witchhunt (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3Awitchhunt&btnG=Search&meta=)?
Anyone see a correlation, or even just a similarity here?
I do.
I have never posted a demo before. Another lie.
The only other aimbotting topic I have commented in involved the Fu clan, and that was widely accepted as fact.
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Actually, there are other demos for aimbots that are not the common one, such as this (http://mercenariesguild.net/base/official.dm_69) demo.
Aimbots work on the same principle, they aim for you. They do not aim in the same way that a human aims, and will lock on targets that are not visible to the player. How the player reacts to such things is also a clue.
With unlagged, you shoot where the alien appears for you. Without unlagged you lead your shots to account for lag. Playing regularly on an unlagged server, then suddenly moving to one without will change how you have to lead your aim. What was inv. lag? Was it high? That would have an even greater affect on his aim.
Of course, you are welcome to speculate endlessly about the capabilities of this new, unknown aimbot that we are supposed to take for granted as existing.
My point is, do whatever the hell you want on your own server. Don't come here and make rude accusations without proof, which is what you have done so far. As long as there is no posted demo, there is no proof and you should say nothing until there is, posted proof
I've run in to lots of people that were "convinced" that someone was aimbotting, going back almost a year. As a matter of fact, most of us who have been playing since the standalone was released have been accused of aimbotting at one time or another. I can only imagine what pre-standalone people get accused of. I've even been accused of aimbotting with a goon by a particularly noobish group of people.
Incidently, there are players that will hit almost every shot with MD, or will hit every shot against a poor team. That is so unconvincing it's funny.
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I wouldn't have posted anything at all if he hadn't posted about our server in the first place. Anyway, I'll stop posting until I have the demo, to satisfy you. Really, the only unnecessarily rude ones have been you two.
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Note that he has 50-60 ping on my server, so adding 100-110 to his latency SHOULD make a huge difference to someone who is used to unlagged and doesn't know it has been turned off.
fixed
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Seriously, I saw invictus maybe, 5 times on trem.
First time I did he had a nearly 10% accuracy on an unlag server.
1 week later, he connects to a server on which I'm playing. Suddenly, I notice him getting 15 kills in 3-4 min. I spectate him, and seriously, he sucked. He couldn't dodge anything, and anything bigger then mara took him down within 5 sec, including at s2. BUT, his aim was splendid, 100% accuracy on unlag.
Surprised, I let it go, because it didn't seem to me he was aimbotting, just really good(There was no jerk whatsoever)
But, in my head, something was really weird.
Some no name, in one week, got perfect accuracy, and couldn't dodge for crap.
Now we're not talking about a vet of quake or other 3d shooters, of course these guys have nigh perfect aim, but they can also dodge and its almost "perfect", maybe 9/10.
Then the next day, he comes on again, once again, perfect aim in 15 min or so, no miss whatsoever. Burst shots with rifle, 5 shots per dretch, dead dretch. Though there is no jerking, it is definitelly weird.
Then a few hours later, he connects to a non-unlag server. Suddenly, again, his aim goes down to 1, maybe 2 kills in over 20 min. When I stated that, he simply disconected.
Then, the next day, I connect to D*S painsaw. He joins up maybe 10 mins later, at most. Perfect aim.
Then some people start saying he aimbots, as well as 2 other player on human team(Those had jerks and such unlike him) Then, suddenly, he starts spaming links to null's aimbot.
Couple secs later, he gets vote kicked along with the other 2 aimbotter.
Now, I might not be a vet, or a very good player. But I can recognise skills and hacks. Nearly everybody around here knows me and knows I don't speak out of line. But this guy, though he has no jerking categorised with null's aimbot, is very, but I mean very weird. He can't dodge for crap, and as a better aim then all the people that have been playing trem/quake for years.
That alone should probably trigger a few questions in your head.
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If this guy is NEO INVICTUS, i'd have to agree with the aimbot. I saw him about a week ago and he was pathetic, but the past couple times i've seen him he's gotten a lot more kills, but retains some stupid habits.
Why would he be such a fast learner in the area of aiming and not learn the other parts of Tremulous?
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Note that he has 50-60 ping on my server, so adding 100-110 to his latency SHOULD make a huge difference to someone who is used to unlagged and doesn't know it has been turned off.
fixed
My original quote was 'Note that he has 50-60 ping on my server', that is where it ends. I'm assuming the rest is what you meant to say. And if so, why would you double the latency? You'd divide by half, since latency IS the double trip. So, in reality, the server gets his shot in 25ms, not 50. 50 is to alert him that it got it.
Amine
because quake3 has 50msec of "built-in" lag, you are probably (read: i'm too tired to think about how the netcode works right now) right about the 25 ms thing though, so he was stuck with 75ms extra latency to what he's used to, and he has no idea that he should be leading to actually hit anything. i've gone on non-unlagged servers where i got 50 ping after playing on unlagged for long enough to get used to it, and hitting anything at all was an extreme challenge, and i knew i was aiming for the wrong place.
btw, i'm tired of having to clean up threads like this after evlesoa and his friends (enemies w/e) spam it up with their flames, if you keep it up i'm just gonna lock this thread.
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Don't come here and make rude accusations without proof, which is what you have done so far.
Take your own advice.
Incidently, there are players that will hit almost every shot with MD, or will hit every shot against a poor team. That is so unconvincing it's funny.
First of all, I said every single shot, not almost every single shot. Second of all, really? Where is your proof? I think that's just bullshit.
That is just one. The others are far more rude.
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You all keep posting, even talking about a demo. where is it?
You may be surprised to find out that I am quite interested in seeing it. Not because I don't think you know what you are talking about, but because it may in fact be an aimbot. A great way to learn about aimbots is to see them in action, to see a suspected aimbot and figure out whether or not it could be an aimbot.
Take this (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5238[/url) for example. There is the obvious aimbot sign when the bot switches targets on him to something he couldn't possibly see. Then there are the not so obvious signs, such as the aimbot grabbing a target behind him and beyond his sight and hearing, he follows it to find a goon around a corner. Or the dretch that attacks his base and he takes a potshot at it, though it is behind a barrier (though you could miss it if you didn't watch closely as it happens very quickly.) Or his quick movements to enemies though his mouse sensitivity is set very low. There is also his seemingly random looks towards the center of the map, most likely from the bot grabbing onto an alien in the center of atcs (from the hall)
The people who get caught by the flaws in the bot are easy. It's the difficult to catch clues that are interesting to see and learn about.
Last but not least, I require no proof beyond my own experience, for I am not accusing anyone of cheating in the forum that will cause admins to ban you sight unseen for cheating. Perhaps you will gain a better perspective when you are accused of something you know for a fact you are not doing.
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Last but not least, I require no proof beyond my own experience, for I am not accusing anyone of cheating in the forum that will cause admins to ban you sight unseen for cheating. Perhaps you will gain a better perspective when you are accused of something you know for a fact you are not doing.
I haven't been accused of aimbotting by almost every server I visit. Nor will I be. Nor will most good, legitimate players. Irrelevant.
Many, many testimonies are good enough proof. Otherwise, why should people ban the deconner, 3, on sight? Better safe than sorry. I'll post the demo tomorrow. Honestly, I think you are grasping at straws.
And you've experienced players who miss no shots, you say? I've spectated Orc before; even he misses (albeit rarely). Regardless of whether the opposing team is good or not.
Like I said, let's stop arguing about it, as many other people also account for this player being an aimbotter, and I have already said I will post the demo later (tomorrow).
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just a thought regarding dealing with aimbots....
(keep in mind that i am not a programmer)
would it not be possible to have some part of the client software (or anticheat) sent out to the clients? I understand that under normal circumstances, the custom client could just stop execution of the anti-cheat or whatever was sent out, but it seems like you could prevent that by having the server, at startup, freshly compile a new client software (1 for each OS perhaps?) containing an encryption key (specified in a text file, or the config files) required to connect to the server? Then when players connect, this recently compiled client software with its brand new (since server startup) key is downloaded, and used throughout the gaming session.
Would this not be quite difficult to get around, in terms of hacking? I mean, yea the game is open source, and the method the server uses to compile the clients would be opensource, but the encrpytion key would not be known, and would be required for any communication with the server....this would thus secure the connection, and establish at least a little trust in the client software being run.....
I have no doubt that there would be some method of bypassing this, but at least it would be both more difficult for the botters to work around, and aside from a small download (a few hundred K? a meg?) at server connection, which could be cached (lets assume a new client, per server, is released once every 3 days)....favorite servers would thus only occasionally have a download to do. No additional action is needed for the gamers.
Whether this idea could be used simply to make sure the client was pure, or to implement some form of memory scan for known bots, i dont know...just a brainstorm.
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there appears to be a new aimbot on the loose.
demo of Saint Imagination aimbotting. [note: i've never heard of imagination being in the saint clan; heck, i've never even heard of imgination]
here's the link:
http://files.filefront.com//;7913766;;/
some may think that he's not botting, but timescale .5 and realizing that his chaingun never misses (with the exception of dretches, and even then, he's still amazingly accurate) a single bullet may prove otherwise.
this aimbot doesn't seem to work well on unlagged (assuming that invictus was hacking with the same aimbot as saint imagination).
answers to:
1) but he uses luci. surely he can't be an aimbotter if he uses luci.
not true for several reasons
a) he could have easily bound the bot to a key, turning it off when he buys luci
b) even when he uses luci, he twitches (albeit only in moderate degrees and slower, unlike Null's aimbot) to the targets.
c) this new aimbot seems to be able to take luci into consideration when calculating how to hit the enemy.
2) he has a guid [note: at least i think he does]
a) this new aimbot seems to allow that. i do not claim to be tech savvy, but i don't think it's impossible to code a aimbot that can be used in conjunction with a guid.
3) he attacked the om while there were enemies in sight. aimbot, specifically Null's aimbot, only allows locking on to enemies. so if you're attacking a building, and a dretch pop's it's head up, you'll immediately twitch to the dretch.
a) he could have bound the aimbot to a key.
b) this new aimbot might allow the user to attack crucial enemy structures without twitching to enemies.
4) but he moves really well and dodges competently
a) i believe that he is a skilled player as well as a aimbotter. not all people who use aimbots are total newbies to the game.
i believe that saint is hacking because
1) he rarely misses dretches. never misses larger targets. not a single bullet will miss. (see the chainsuit part during the demo)
2) he didn't deny it when i accused him of it. he told me to 'stfu n00b'. he also didn't try to evade the kick (though i'm not sure you can on D*S Painsaw).
3) it's unlikely that it's a coincidence that so many people are reported having 'new aimbot' syndromes and saint imagination, who is demo'd having these traits, is not an aimbotter.
i believe that saint imagination is hacking, but he might just be an uber-good noname'd upstart (however unlikely this may be). but if this is so, i hope to be able to apologize to saint imagination. but until concrete proof is given of saint imagination not being a hacker, i'll stick with my belief that he is.
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p.s. Saint Imagination looked like he was wallhacking too. see demo.
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The problem here is that not every server have a viable download source that actually runs fast.
In fact, on many servers, you download straight from the actualy server source, and then 1 of 3 thigns happen.
1. The server is fast enough to support the players and your download. Nothing happens.
2. The server cannot support both, and thus either:
A. Makes you download at 1-8 kp/sec
B. Makes the server lag horribly shooting all the players to 500 ping
3. Both cases of A and B happen
Also, not everyone as autodownload set to on, and it is set by default to off. As such, most people would encounter problem logging on to the servers.
At kevlarman:
Usually, when 1-2 person are caught flaming exescivelly in a single thread and admins are required to clean up, they usually ban the user instead of closing the topic. Especially if this user does it repetedly in many thread at once.
We might need a warn feature on the website me think/
At apple:
Get that ****ing demo up or stfu already. Of course he's going to question you, you keep sending flames at a person without showing proof. Now any single sane person would do that, and seriously, tuple so far as been the sanest person I've seen on these forums. He's right on most of his post, which have been posted without seeing any proof from you. Post proof and he'll probably agree with you.
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That looks nothing like an aimbot..... unless the 'obviousness' you and gretchen were talking about was from during s1 and s2 that you didn't record. Based off this vid I can only say he was a good player.
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i've just rewatched the demo 2 more times.
st anger, at 10:25 do timescale .2
watch him battle that dretch. the beginning isn't very obvious, but towards the middle, when the dretch jumps sideways away from him, he smoothly twitches to where the dretch is going to land. and that's at timescale .2
still not convinced? watch the entire demo in timescale .2. notice the way that he moves his aiming reticle. he moves it in small jerky movements. when he's battling a dretch in the demo, he's reticle will jerk half an inch towards the dretch, pause for about .2 seconds, jerk half an inch...and so on and so forth.
simply put, his aiming is jerky and twitchy, but in small portions, so in timescale 1, it looks like he's moving smoothly from target to target.
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the other day someone told me 'i make aimbots do u need one?'
i said no.
well, that's how to stop aimbots. so simple.
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The people who want aimbots are going to say "yes".
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he smoothly twitches to where the dretch is going to land. and that's at timescale .2
This is the hallmark of a good player. For another example of this, see how as he enters the A base being pursued by a goon. He shoots the way he thinks the goon will go. This is one of the methods used by great players. I am not a great player by the way, my prediction sucks :)
still not convinced? watch the entire demo in timescale .2. notice the way that he moves his aiming reticle.
If you slow down any video enough, any motion will seem jerky. Network games operate on discrete amounts, none of it is analog.
You also mention that he is new. I often play as something other than tuple. I also at times replace my guid. That you think he comes out of nowhere in the community is, frankly, quite meaningless.
3) it's unlikely that it's a coincidence that so many people are reported having 'new aimbot' syndromes and saint imagination, who is demo'd having these traits, is not an aimbotter.
To me, this makes it more likely that there is something else (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria) going on. This is aside from the fact that I see no evidence of aimbotting.
And where did you see this wallhacking? When he starts attacking under the center? That is common sense to me. Alien base goes down, the only real options they have at that point is to rebuild or attempt to rebuild in the center. Everything in his game strikes me as map knowledge and experience with how his adversary uses it. Again, hallmarks of good players.
It is unfortunate that good players who have been accused of aimbotting in the past simply because they kick ass will have to deal with this on an increasing basis. The next time you see one of the great players, demo them and see how misguided this appears.
I remain convinced that he is using the grey matter aimbot.
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I've watched the imagination demo. Consider this another vote for "just really good".
He spends the entire demo using two of the least aimbottable weapons in the game, but never mind that. Three things swung it for me:
1) his aiming is always jerky, even when just looking around - looks to me just like high sensitivity
2) Note how while fighting the dretch, the cursor is rarely, even never actually centred on target - just nearish
3) He always, always, fires where he expects the target to be next not where it is now, even based on just where it is looking. If an aimbot tried to use that kind of behaviour, it would be much more obvious and inaccurate.
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Accusation of a player hacking with inadequate and nonsensical reasons provided in addition to a demo of a very skilled player.
Imagination is a recent recruit of the Saint clan, achieving member status as of 28 June 2007. "Imagination" is new the Tremulous scene - but not his other aliases, which I will choose to remain unposted until I have his permission to do so. It really is quite a shame how skilled members of the Tremulous community are accused like this. As Tuple said before me, many players will play under different aliases from time to time.
You ask for concrete proof that he isn't a hacker - I will ask for concrete proof that he is.
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Shit.
Imagination is a recent recruit of the Saint clan, achieving member status as of 28 June 2007. "Imagination" is new the Tremulous scene - but not his other aliases, which I will choose to remain unposted until I have his permission to do so. It really is quite a shame how skilled members of the Tremulous community are accused like this. As Tuple said before me, many players will play under different aliases from time to time.
You ask for concrete proof that he is not a hacker - I will ask for concrete proof that he is a hacker.
+1
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http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DLNMNXB8
Demo of Invictus.
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http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GATRAY1A
Demo of Invictus the next game, after unlagged was turned off. I seriously doubt it was because of lagged that he was missing so much - in fact, he wasn't even playing as if it were unlagged (hitting dretches directly). He was shooting everywhere. A wallhack is also VERY apparent to me.
And Mantra...forget it.
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I'm not sure anyone has posted this video, but if anyone doesn't feel like downloading demos to see what an aimbot looks like, this is very informative (though it is for Halo, it applies to trem as well).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqEklIbiRI
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Yeah, those demos are pretty convincing. Did you tell him that unlagged had been turned off?
Still, that shot at 7:40 convinced me.
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The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable.
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http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DLNMNXB8
Demo of Invictus.
this looks to me just like a player who knows how to aim his md. even if there was a chance of him aimbotting you completely invalidate your opinion by accusing him of wallhacking while he is wearing a fucking helmet
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The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable.
Really? I'm not sure what went wrong for you, try again. It works for Owl and me.
Owl, yeah, I think we did, but I'm not completely sure.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DLNMNXB8
Demo of Invictus.
this looks to me just like a player who knows how to aim his md. even if there was a chance of him aimbotting you completely invalidate your opinion by accusing him of wallhacking while he is wearing a fucking helmet
Um, no, he wasn't wearing a helmet at all times. He was also aiming through walls at the EXACT position of the alien. But keep grasping at straws, kevlarman.
Oh, fucking. /unnecessary and annoying cursing.
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You didn't know where the alien was since it was not from the alien's perspective.
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Actually, I did, because I was there, and you weren't. Other people were there too; if there is another huge problem about this simple point, I'm sure they will also post.
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You remember it that clearly? Perhaps you're mistaking your blinded hate for someone who's better then you for memories.
I, along with others against you regarding this topic, are open to believing that there is a second aimbot that's been released to the public that, for the lack of a better phrase, pwns the shit out of <aimbot>. However, a demo is not enough (something in .avi would be nice :wink: ). f0rqu3 spoke of his "aimbot", but currently we have no proof that there is an aimbot that is more sophisticated then funlily out there.
Innocent untill proven guilty. You've got a stong case, but there's really not enough evidence in your favor. It's all arguable.
edit Tuple: lets make people at least have to work for it, thanks :)
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Via use of timescale 0.01 I conclude that he has good reflexes and skill.
I could understand if you think he uses some sort of auto-fire, but meh.
Also, he did miss a couple of times, and he obviously knows the sizes of the bboxes etc. very well.
EDIT:
(<CsI>HairY): Am.. I would bet my childs life on it.
(<CsI>HairY): Im not kidding.
(<CsI>HairY): He's a bot, I guarnatee you
(<CsI>HairY): I would bet my firstborn on it, its a fact.
WTF?
And what was with all the wall hacking complaints?
Never once did I see anything that wasn't radar or simple common sense.
Also, in the second, thats just him shooting where he sees it.
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I was curious at first, as he seems to be nowhere near the aliens in terms of lining up his shots. Kevlarman pointed out that a demo shows the addition ping of the viewer as well as invictus. With that knowledge, I viewed it while attempting to take into account lag.
Notice invictus' shots in the first demo actually do cross the path of the alien he kills, just not at the exact same time, they are just behind but on the aliens path. Keep in mind the bbox is larger than the alien model that you see. Notice the same on the second demo, all of his shots are behind the path of the alien, but he doesn't hit in the second demo as unlagged is off. He does miss shots too, ruling out the non-aiming aimbot idea which I don't know is even technically possible. It might be, it might not be, I have no idea. seems it would change the direction he faces, which would affect his directional movement(from the servers perspective).
Additionally, look at where the alien blood appears, it's where he shot, not where the alien appears in the demo.
And wallhacking? WTF? Where is that? David's right, common sense and knowledge of the map.
I am curious how someone could see if he is aiming at an alien behind a wall without knowing themselves that the alien is behind the wall.
All the really good MDers I've spec'd let the opponent get into the line of fire more often than twitch shooting, which invictus appears to be doing. Invictus does seem to be very good.
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At certain points, his cursor follows the alien exactly behind a wall. I know this as I was also spectating the alien. I doubt anyone uses the radar skillfully enough to know exactly where the alien is - the radar is pretty crappy. Also, before I started talking the demo, he jumped from a corner while looking at it and immediately mded two dretches hiding behind it. But I can't prove that, since I don't have the demo, so obviously I'm lying out of blind hatred.
Yes Plague, I remember it clearly as it only happened yesterday, and my memory isn't equivalent to that of a fly.
Hm, common sense and map knowledge? Show me you can do that. Come to the Zubs server.
All of the evidence, combined with the fact that a week ago people saw him and claimed he was pretty bad, and now he has godly MD aim, points to him being an aimbotter. VERY STRONGLY. I'll stop responding now, because the posts are just becoming ridiculous and seem to be an attempt to save yourselves from being wrong. It's our server, and we will ban him; I only responded on these forums because he brought the issue up ON THESE FORUMS. So don't fucking tell me to stfu and post it on our server's forums. I am entitled to defend myself and the people of my server. Thanks. Have a nice day.
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I assume he is innocent and look for evidence that he is not. You seem to be doing the opposite.
Jumping around a corner and shooting dretches is also normal. Many, many players sit in the same area. Makes for easy pickings. There are also places where humans don't commonly look, that's where I sit.
How can you know where his crosshairs are if you are also spectating the alien? That makes less than no sense. How can you see both?
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A private message I just received:
Hi,
i think this could be useful to you.
http://uploaded.de/?id=69bpy4
http://uploaded.de/?id=w3cb46
I did those two demo of (neo-ogc)Invictus, and
to me, it is obvious that he's cheating.
He's not aimboting, but he's using an AutoFire and
a wallhack.
The autofire, that he probably "ported" from the OGC hackpack
from quake3, shoot whenever the crosshair touches the bbox of
the ennemy. Giving perfect accuracy!!!
OGC-info
http://gameadmins.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=31
(deemed unfit, Survivor)
For the wallhack, you can see it clearly when you watch the demo
with "r_shownormals" set to 1.
On my second demo, at 1:44 to 1:54, it is quite obvious that he's
looking at that goon right in the eye.
And on top, i've googled (ogc invictus tremulous)
here's what i've found;
http://forum.gamedeception.net/showthread.php?p=78672
ps: here's a bind to toggle the "shownormals" while watching a demo.
bind DEL "toggle r_shownormals"
He wishes to remain unnamed, so I will respect that. But THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
Now Invictus: shut the fuck up. You have no right to be 'very angry' at the general tremulous community. We have every right to be angry with you.
Oh, and to the person who sent this to me: check your private messages. :)
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yah well autofire is a bit harder to catch than aimbot... seeing how YOU have to do the aiming... ive used AutoFire, its a neat tool... I feel it takes away too much of fun tho, i rather aimbot than autofire, cuz i think firing for yourself is the shit!
Also, wallhacks which have a hitbox in them, are really 1337 to learn from, and ive seen the hitboxes, because a person who i will not mention the name of, sent me screenshots of every item in the game, in other words all models. Its a pity to say, why does the egg have such a smaller hitbox than the telenode? And why is the hitboxes not lined up with the model much?
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:(
It looks like I was wrong.
Now we have a problem, as as shown by this thread, this looks like skill.
I disqualified auto-fire as there were lots of instances where he was looking at people but not firing, and also some where he didn't fire the very second his cross-hair hit the bbox, so this is going to be problematic to detect reliably.
:(
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Well, as far as we know, it's not public.
Y'all really need aimbot detecting skills.
We now now what doesn't work for detecting aimbots with demos. timescale .2, etc. That's good.
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I'm not sure if it was completely safe to have posted some of the links in that quote, so if a moderator deems it not, please delete whatever is unsafe quickly. Sorry. Although it doesn't link to anything immediately dangerous..perhaps you should move it to that server owners forum?
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Removed a link due to its volatile nature. The rest seem to be within the books although I'm not that happy with them
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why does any of this (discussion of single aimbotters) matter? One aimbotter does not ruin a community. A horde of aimbotters DO. Rather than performing a witchhunt (whether or not they be witches)
Tuple, regarding your comments on my idea (see page 8-- http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5087&start=210), wouldnt making the initial connection to a server take longer (3-5 minutes) have a positive aspect?
What i mean is, it seems almost like a spam reduction technique known as greylisting (initial mail from someone is rejected temporarially; only legit mailers will resend). If you make it take longer to connect the first time to these servers, normal users are only slightly inconvenienced, whereas griefers and aimbotting server hoppers have to wait quite a lot longer to carry out their misdeeds.
Second, aside from the inconveniences. is there any reason that my idea is not technically sound/helpful in stopping aimbots? A solution with problems is better than no solution or an easily worked around solution, correct?
Further, my suggestion is more aimed at future versions of tremulous, perhaps with better methods of downloading or downloading certain files even with autodownload off; perhaps the files could be forced on the client regardless of "autodownload" setting. The idea is that this is an integral part of the game, not some mod. And could the software clients not be uploaded to an FTP or http site that has better throughput--tremulous.info comes to mind.
Granted this adds quite a lot of additional web traffic (assuming 1500 people play each night, and a fresh batch of downloads every 3 nights, and each player picking a different server every night, that would be, say, 500k*1500*30= 22.5 gb per month), but thats not undoable, is it? Dreamhost, IIRC, offers easily that bandwidth for very little money....
Is there a reason this wouldnt work?
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I am not a lawyer, but I think what you are saying would break the GPL.
If a new client is compiled, and sent, then the source would have to be sent to.
The evil hacker could then extract the key from the new source and recompile there hack client with the new key.
As for bandwidth, the MG has served nearing 100GB this month, most of which is from downloads.
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Sigh.
If you think someone's aimbotting, record a demo. View it at 0.2 - 0.3 timescale. If you think they're wallhacking, record them, then boot up your wallhack (because most of you bastards have one already) and view the demo.
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If you slow down any video enough, any motion will seem jerky. Network games operate on discrete amounts, none of it is analog.
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So, just wondering, does anyone still believe Invictus plays legitly?
It's like the Michael Jackson acquittal.
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I am not a lawyer, but I think what you are saying would break the GPL.
If a new client is compiled, and sent, then the source would have to be sent to.
The evil hacker could then extract the key from the new source and recompile there hack client with the new key.
As for bandwidth, the MG has served nearing 100GB this month, most of which is from downloads.
Alright, send the source too, then....heres the beauty of it all--the server only has to compile this software at startup. Every server has their own compiled software....lets say compiling it takes 10 minutes. This is negligible for the server. The aimbotter now has to connect, dl the client (5 mins), look through the source (lets assume theres a script which automates it), and recompile (10 mins). This means per server, the aimbotter needs 15 mins before he can play. Normal players need only 5 mins. Already there is an advantage for normal players. When the aimbotter is caught, well, guess what--he needs to either A) reset his GUID and IP, or B) connect to a new server, and repeat the whole process. If we also implemented an automatic master blacklist system, he needs to do BOTH. This is very time consuming.
And again, the only thing that normal users experience is slight wait times on first connect to server. The whole point here is that aimbotters are going through MORE trouble than normal users, not less--which means that it was successful. GPL has not been broken (source was given out), and while aimbotters CAN technically aimbot for a while, being banned is no longer a quick server-hop--they need to run the client installer (that being how you reset GUID?), and reset modem, a 5-10 minute process, connect to new server, download client, run their key-extractor, and recompile. Even if they have some way of skipping the recompile step, theyre still out about 10-15 minutes between the download and GUID/IP reset.
I'm STILL not seeing why my idea is a bad one--merely minor flaws which can be addressed. Please, if i am wrong, tell me how.
EDIT: it just occured to me that while the source to the client may need to be distributed, the key probably doesnt. Which means forcing aimbotters to decompile/reverse engineer....
EDIT2: Im probably going to start a new thread for ideas about dealing with it, there seems to be 2 conversations going on in this thread
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They key will have to be sent, as it is part of the source.
Compiling doesn't take long if only a few files have changed.
And a 5 minute download for me is a half hour download for someone on dialup and a 5 second download for someone with a decent net connection.
Also, the client is 1.6mb. the source tarball is 11. And only sending a patch file would break the GPL.
So, when a cheat joins, they spend half and hour downloading 12.6mb, then they extract the key, takes a split second, compile, one minute tops, and are ready to cheat.
Then of course you have the issue that this would break compatibility with quake3, which the devs have already said is never going to happen.
So its never going to practically work.
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Sooo, another aimbotter for your amusement
Old GH member, got kicked for aimbotting, aimbotted on boom boom while I was there:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=EI0BODU0
/record hacker_mike
recording to demos/hacker_mike.dm_69.
[A] [W]Daenyth: otic
[A] [W]Daenyth: :/
}MG{K-otic: brb
Epic Fail Guy was machinegunned by Mike
A Blade of Crabgrass connected
Bringer Of Pain was swiped by Iabz's Basilisk
A Blade of Crabgrass entered the game
Machinegun Turret BUILT by PUNK!
A Blade of Crabgrass joined the humans
[PKMN]Pikachu: cool
[PKMN]Pikachu: lol
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): guys, watch mike
[PKMN]Pikachu joined the aliens
NewPlayer#0 connected
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: what about him
Epic Fail Guy was gunned down by Bringer Of Pain
(-GH-SolidSnake): haha i was just telling Iabz
Bringer Of Pain was swiped by Iabz's Basilisk
[PKMN]Pikachu was pulse rifled by Mike
(-GH-SolidSnake): about him
[H] Bringer Of Pain: fuckin
Machinegun Turret DECONSTRUCTED by PUNK!
NewPlayer#0 entered the game
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: omg
Telenode DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: s2
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): sometimes his aim goes jerky like
Epic Fail Guy was pulse rifled by Mike
Mike was swiped by Iabz's Basilisk
Machinegun Turret BUILT by PUNK!
(-GH-SolidSnake): dude he is an aimbotter
NewPlayer#0 joined the humans
(-GH-SolidSnake): he told us
(-GH-SolidSnake): well our clan
Repeater BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): which is why hes out of it
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: !listplayers
(-GH-SolidSnake): him and his friend ice
Machinegun Turret BUILT by PUNK!
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): lol
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): i was telling Iabz once i saw he connected
[PKMN]Pikachu was pulse rifled by Mike
[PKMN]Pikachu abandoned the aliens
[PKMN]Pikachu: k
[PKMN]Pikachu: ima spec
(-GH-SolidSnake): you see how his aim jerks around alot
(-GH-SolidSnake): lawlz
Repeater BUILT by PUNK!
(NeoMega::rainbow): seemed normal
(-GH-SolidSnake): nah watch
Mike was killed by TEAMMATE NewPlayer#0
NewPlayer#0 was swiped by Epic Fail Guy's Basilisk
}MG{K-otic joined the aliens
(-GH-SolidSnake): like you'd be behind him
[H] Mike: nice idiot
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): he was weird earlier
(-GH-SolidSnake): and all of a sudden
(NeoMega::rainbow): seemed normal
[A] }MG{K-otic: ya gud 1
(-GH-SolidSnake): he's like turn around
(-GH-SolidSnake): and be like right on you
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): it was worse against abz
Mike was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): right there
(-GH-SolidSnake): see you saw that
(NeoMega::rainbow): that bot
(-GH-SolidSnake): he jerked around
[A] Iabz: Haha, mike
Machinegun Turret DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): and was right on iabz
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): thats not jerk, thats snaping
Mike was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): oh well yeah
(-GH-SolidSnake): the point is
(NeoMega::rainbow): wasnt really a jerk but a quick movement to a target he
couldnt of seen
[H] Mike: easy with 31 ping isent it? stfu pls
(-GH-SolidSnake): yeah
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): there
Machinegun Turret DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
Mike was clawed by Epic Fail Guy's Marauder
[PKMN]Pikachu: We need to vote
[H] PUNK!: bringer of pain may i kill you
[H] Mike: vote what
Mantra(KillaZ+): lol
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
Mantra(KillaZ+): nah
[PKMN]Pikachu: All who think mike of botting say I
[H] Mike: i
[PKMN]Pikachu: =P
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ************
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *************
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *********
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at **********
(-GH-SolidSnake): ahha
Mike was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
Mantra(KillaZ+): LOL
Bringer Of Pain was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
callvote: [W]Daenyth called a vote
Bringer Of Pain timed out
(-GH-SolidSnake): he told us be took that bund from someone else
[H] Mike: yup
(-GH-SolidSnake): *bind
Not allowed to vote as spectator
No team vote in progress
[H] Mike: f1 ftw
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ******
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *************
NeoMega::rainbow joined the humans
[PKMN]Pikachu joined the aliens
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ***************
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ***********
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at **************
[A] Iabz: Maybe you should work on your dodge
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *******************
Vote passed
Mike has been kicked. reason: aimbot
]/stoprecord
Stopped demo.
[A] [W]Daenyth: !listplayers
-GH-SolidSnake: lawlz
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: hes going to come back
]who wants me to post that on trem.net?
Mantra(KillaZ+): who wants me to post that on trem.net?
-GH-SolidSnake: he's an idiot
[A] Iabz: yes
[A] [W]Daenyth: do it
-GH-SolidSnake: he told us that he's good
[A] }MG{K-otic: bbl
}MG{K-otic disconnected
]alright, brb
Mantra(KillaZ+): alright, brb
-GH-SolidSnake: but he uses aimbot for fun
]ima upload and post
Mantra(KillaZ+): ima upload and post
-GH-SolidSnake: and wall hacks
[A] [W]Daenyth: except... hes not good :/
-GH-SolidSnake: yeah
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: upload
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: on frag
Reactor DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: let fox perma ban
NewPlayer#0 was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
PUNK! was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
{O88}Matt2k10 connected
Reactor BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
]/condump hacker
Dumped console text to hacker.
Debate!
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Please edit out the links to the site.
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Sorry, my bad, totally forgot to edit the links to that out.
Edited, ********* refer to aimbot sites for the idiots who might want to know.
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I have played tremulous for some time now, I would have to say that Aimbot Usage has become massive in the last couple of months, and I can see it get bigger everyweek. If the problem cant be fixed, than Tremulous just isn't going to be fun to play anymore,. Newbies are going to get discouraged and give up wondering why they just cant compete, do they really suck that bad, and honest veterans are going to notice that even though they are become more skilled then ever in their movements, that they get picked off as if they are standing still.
If you play tremulous and think about it, you have to admit that there seems to be a huge rise in dead eye shots in the last couple of months. People that can make impossible shots at impossible ranges, even if your extremely skilled at walking on the walls.
I was playing tremulous when some guy started playing and spamed the link to the site that had an aimbot. The aimbot that was spammed is open source, and a programmer could easily remove the section of code that spams the sites name.
I had never heard of an aimbot before, and wanted to see just how devastating it was, so i downloaded it and tested it out on a server with a friend. It was extremely accurate. All you had to do was push the fire button, and your rifle would point at the closest alient to you instantaneously. Not only did it have an aimbot, it also had a lead bot. So for weapons that fire at a low velocity, if you set the right lead, it is still easy to nail your target. And if that wasn't enough, the hack let you see through walls, so nothing can ambush you.
I think that the usage of aimbots is starting to reach 20% of the people who play humans. There seems to be at least one in every game now. And that is a trend I noticed in just the last couple weeks.
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I think that the usage of aimbots is starting to reach 20% of the people who play humans. There seems to be at least one in every game now. And that is a trend I noticed in just the last couple weeks.
What servers do you play on? I have yet to see any actual aimbots in game (but a few accusations here and there).
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I play on a verity of servers.
I try to be careful about accusing people directly, as there are some good players out there, but I believe the overall trend of exceptional aim of human players is due to aimbots.
I am not trying brag when I say this, but I am very skilled at trem. I am extremely good at wall walking and with marauders. I have played games where I have taken on several humans by myself and won. I am also descent with humans, but i know how hard it can be to hit a dretch who really knows how to wall walk,
Here are some tricks that I have found to be somewhat useful when fighting aimbotters, hope they help.
1st of all, always assume they can see you, aimbotters often have wall hacks. You cant hide from a wall hack.
2nd, you have to learn to play in teams, since one of you is going to die in the assult (depending on your evolve), you need to at least make sure the other takes out the aimbot player. By continually taking out the aimboter you keep them using less devastating weapons.
3rd, watch out for groups of humans. 1 aimboter is deadly, 2 are leathal. only attack if you know that you can get your alien to saftey before he is killed, remembering that they just aren't going to miss you.
4rth, don't give into the aimboter taunting, they are usually the most arogant, cocky, and abnoxious players in the game. People who are honestly descent at tremulous, usually have a certain level of respect for their fellow players. Aimboters act like punks.
5th, remember that aimboters often are good at dodging to ( so are genuinely good players), because they don't have to worry about aiming, they can concentrate on other tasks.
6th, not every aimbotter is a noob. Some aimboters where good at tremulous before they started aimboting. People seem to think that only a noob would aimbot or use hacks, but that just isn't the case. In fact, if somebody is going to go searching for a hack, they have already probably played the game a bit.
7th. Don't waste your dragon on an aimboter by trying to chomp him. Your better of trying to pounce him and while you are poincing hold down the pounce button so that the minute you land on the ground you can pounce again to a safe location. With the right weapon, an aimboter can kill you rdragon in moments.
8th, the most devistating weapons an aimbot has is the shotgun, mass driver, rifle, chaingun, lase gun. Weapons that have high velocity, don't require much lead. When the aimboter is using a pulse rifle, if you keep you movement random and sparatic, it is much harder for them to hit you. That is due to the low velocity of the pulse rifle. Since the aimbot has a lead bot, by suddenly changing direction, their lead bot is worthless and can actually make them miss more often than if they weren't using an aimbot at all. If you are attacking with the marauder, you can take on aimbotter with a pulse rifle with out to much problem if you keep your marauder continually jumping of the walls and in new directions and over the aimboters head, they have a hard time hitting you because their leadbots predictions are off. But dont run or walk in a straight line, their lead bot can predict where you are going to be very easily.
9th, on servers that aren't unlaged, by keeping your movements sparatic, you can even make it hard for their aimbots to hit you even if they are using weapons with a high velocity.
10th, even if they aren't using an aimbot, just don't get in the habit of standing still. If a human can see you they can shoot you. You have have to stop make sure your behind something. There is no reason to go take a peak when playing aliens, you need to get used to using their radar. Remember, every alein can see through wall and obsticles, it makes no sense take a peak. You can count how many people there are by looking at the blue dots.
11th, a good time to attack an aimboter is when they have to turn their aimbot off. If an aimbot is headed towards your base, hide and wait until he start shooting stuff in your base. An aimboter will need to turn of his aimbot in order to shoot structures if oponents are around. This is because his aimbot will be pointing at you instead of the structure if he has it tied to his fire button. And for most aimbots, it will even point at you through walls, so he has to turn it off to shoot and acid tube or egg, etc. Good time to take him out since his aimbot is off.
12th, the best advice of all, is don't feed the aimboter. if you suspect he is aimboting, than don't play like you would other players. He would love nothing more than for you to charge him where he can just pick you off and feel he is such a good player. play hide and go seek. He can see you with his wall hack, and so he is going to get very frustrated when he is just sitting and staring at you through the wall. He just wants you to show yourself, just a little bit is all he needs. Well, when he comes closer to shoot you, run to the next corner and hide behind it. Just don't let the aimboter have his way, like I mentioned earlier, he will taunt you and call you names and may even get vulgar, but don't give in he is cheating anyways and doesn't deserve a fair fight that you would give an honest player. He may even discharge the magazine in his weapon out of frustrations, and if he does and needs to reload, then you have a window of opportunity to attack him without his aimbot being a problem.
I give this list of some tactics because we need to face the reality that people are aimboting and stop playing like they aren't. You can actually win against aimboters if you play like they are aimboters and get your team to play like they are aimboters.
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There is no solution for hackers and there never will be.
Maybe no solution (meaning something that will stop hacking for good) but if anything that's a reason to keep trying to invent new ways of finding and pacifying such hacks. If ever you stop they will corrupt all that we hold dear and everything precious to us. We should never stop fighting! NEVER!
Yes We must have the balls to stand up and fight back!
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jigidyjensen1,
I too have noticed particularly chainguns killing with dramatic efficiency for the chaingun in the last month or two. My dretch usually takes quite of aiming to kill, but recently it can get killed with a suspiciously short burst from a chaingun. This isn't while running at them either, it's while spiraling around them on the walls and that sort of thing.
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I saw a guy earlier aimbotting as a bsuit + painsaw. He'd just run towards a dretch, saw them right through, then twitch back and forth like a meth addict as his aimbot stayed locked on to the corpse while he tried to keep running forward.
It's just nice that Null's aimbot is so easy to see (as in the example above) when used by noobs.
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I, too, am yet to see an aimbot in-game, though I'm playing less nowadays. 20% seems to to be a massive exaggeration, 2% would seem high imo.
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I haven't seen any botters around, either.
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yeah, i dont see any aimbotters around either
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Should have been on bg last night i think it was or was it this morning.
Diggs and them caught someone aimbotting then same game a deconner, fun times i tell you.
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Well I haven't seen any aimbots, but if Tremulous had updates, say a small download every week or month that would change some settings, couldn't that make it harder to alter the client, could it be made to not download update when client is altered, and base the client check on multiple files? The update would have to be applied before joining the servers. This would mean to include a Tremulous updater program in the next version (unfortunately more work for programmers). If you want to prevent aimbots, you could just password protect your server, but then everyone else cannot join. Well you and your friends could have fun... There has to be a way for the server to detect an aimbot. Oh, I would not pay money for a key because the whole point of having tremulous is because it is free. I like opensource games, and I realize that this aimbot thing could become a problem. Releasing the next version of tremulous could stop them temporarily if there are enough changes. Be nice if you could just know who was using aimbots.... one day it will be fixed...hopefully, or else the growth of tremulous could stop.
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The majority of aimbotters are found on the D*S servers.
Painsaw
Dretch*Storm
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The majority of aimbotters are found on the D*S servers.
Painsaw
Dretch*Storm
It's excellent to see people taking advantage of the aimbot paranoia to spread false propoganda against others' servers.
Grow up.
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The majority of aimbotters are found on the D*S servers.
Painsaw
Dretch*Storm
It's excellent to see people taking advantage of the aimbot paranoia to spread false propoganda against others' servers.
Grow up.
And how can you verify that what he is saying is'nt the truth ?
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Actually it's the server I play it everyday. Thank you and shut the fuck up Mispeled.
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The majority of aimbotters are found on the D*S servers.
Painsaw
Dretch*Storm
It's excellent to see people taking advantage of the aimbot paranoia to spread false propoganda against others' servers.
Grow up.
And how can you verify that what he is saying is'nt the truth ?
I play on painsaw a lot, and pretty often on dretch*storm and have yet to see any aimbotting going on. Lots of false accusations, but no actual aimbots. D*S's server is probably one of the best administrated large servers in my opinion.
There might be some aimbots there, but definitely not a majority. There's no reason for him to call out those servers specifically.
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Actually it's the server I play it everyday. Thank you and shut the fuck up Mispeled.
Maybe we're in different time zones? I've never seen any cheaters on either server.
And if the "majority" of aimbots are there, why do you play every day?
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Actually it's the server I play it everyday. Thank you and shut the fuck up Mispeled.
Maybe we're in different time zones? I've never seen any cheaters on either server.
And if the "majority" of aimbots are there, why do you play every day?
Because we're usually quick to catch them and ban them. But yes I've seen up to 4 aimbotters a day on D*S.
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Because we're usually quick to catch them and ban them. But yes I've seen up to 4 aimbotters a day on D*S.
I think you are talking out your ass.
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The truth is that they're everywhere, and that's that. Caught a guy at Avalanche named fatal with a goon. Dumbass tried so hard to hide it and called us all 12-year-olds before he got kicked. Got a demo just in case but no one needs it in case he comes on these forums just to beg for belief in his innocence. I also got rid of a guy named Kenmore on our server.
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Thats why I'm happy killaz server doesn't run unlag, good luck to those aimbotters to hit even with leading put on(Hehe, no aimbot can kill a dretch with 200 ping)
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When I say 20% I don't mean 20% of everyone who play tremulous. I mean 20% of the human players at any given time (aimboting does work with aliens to btw). I think a lot of the aimboters keep changing their names on a daily basis.
Honestly, I don't say this to offend, but if you don't notice aimboters, than you probably haven't gotten that good at tremulous until recently, and are just used to aimboters and just don't realize it, and actually think there are that many crack shots in tremulous.
Also, not all aimboters are obvious, some aimboters know techniques so that their aimboting isn't obvious.
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Honestly, I don't say this to offend, but if you don't notice aimboters, than you probably haven't gotten that good at tremulous until recently, and are just used to aimboters and just don't realize it, and actually think there are that many crack shots in tremulous.
Also, not all aimboters are obvious, some aimboters know techniques so that their aimboting isn't obvious.
If aimbotters play and don't dominate, I could give a fuck. What's the point of having an advantage and lose?
I'm beyond the whole 'cheaterz look' sentiment. If you want to cheap, fine. If you win, then people will take notice and you will be probably exposed. If you want to cheat and try so hard to hide it that you lose...well that's my kind of hax.
Either way, I don't lose because someone is mowing down my team. I've lost a lot lately because the standard stupid shit (teammates feeding, not bulding, etc).
I don't see the big deal. Cheating is a part of online games. That's that. People act like this is a crime against humanity and the first time it happened EVER. I don't cheat, don't play any other online games, and this is just a passing thought. I've cought noob_plox (or someone using his name) aimbotting and I just left it alone because he lost anyway. People are so paranoid about, its not even viable on a server with smart players that will spectate them.
My aim with Unlagged has gotten so good, I know I'm going to get banned at some point. Oh well, it mostly Unlagged that making people shoot better and really, I think its better than Lagged. Humans can stand toe to toe with aliens more when dretches actually get hit.
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Either way, I don't lose because someone is mowing down my team. I've lost a lot lately because the standard stupid shit (teammates feeding, not bulding, etc).
Cant feeding be the natural result of going up against aimbots? If that is the case, than you are loosing because of aimbots mowing down your team. Or at least it is a contributing factor.
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Either way, I don't lose because someone is mowing down my team. I've lost a lot lately because the standard stupid shit (teammates feeding, not bulding, etc).
Cant feeding be the natural result of going up against aimbots? If that is the case, than you are loosing because of aimbots mowing down your team. Or at least it is a contributing factor.
Feeding is done by the opponents. You can't shoot something unless its running straight at you. The human team isn't getting more kills than usual and the top scorers are the same players that always did well. Its a lot of new people that are crapping up games.
I don't know how using an aimbot would be helpful on aliens but even then, its the same idea. Same players as top scorers.
I think it is a small group of players aimbotting and changing names/IPs and making it seem a lot bigger.
I'm not seeing new names get a large number of kills. Tremuluos is small so its hard for a player (new or old) to suddenly start racking up kills without it going noticed. I play on D*S at night and weekends and unlike Anger, I've haven't noticed a lot of botters. Every now and then I see a shot that is strange but its nothing that truly ruins the game.
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I guess I should mention that the painsaw aimbot I saw yesterday morning (mentioned earlier in the thread) was actually on D*S Painsaw.
In all honesty, does it really not seem obvious that it would happen that way? The majority of North American noob players (no offense to the actual players on D*S servers) gravitate towards super-large servers like D*S (or S11). These guys are, of course, going to be the most likely to go grab Null's (obvious) aimbot. There was already enough "zomg aimbot" hysteria on those servers before aimbots were widely available (I got kicked twice for aimbotting, and I'm not exactly the greatest player ever), and now it's getting ridiculous.
There are only two ways to eliminate the worries about Null's aimbot for the time being, and they are: 1.) make your server require the backport client to be played on, and 2.) educate your administrators on what an aimbot looks like, both from spectator view and when you're fighting against/working beside it.
A little story regarding the latter. I brought up the spread of Null's aimbot at my weekly LAN party, and then we decided to have some fun with it by having a 5 on 5 aimbot battle. After a couple of hours watching those aimbots at work, it becomes fairly easy to see when they're being used without even having to spectate the guy (though you probably want to, so you can both be 100% sure and grab a demo). I suggest that you try something like this sometime if you can get the chance. You have to know your enemy to fight it, amirite?
Take all that for what you will.
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I guess I should mention that the painsaw aimbot I saw yesterday morning (mentioned earlier in the thread) was actually on D*S Painsaw.
In all honesty, does it really not seem obvious that it would happen that way? The majority of North American noob players (no offense to the actual players on D*S servers) gravitate towards super-large servers like D*S (or S11). These guys are, of course, going to be the most likely to go grab Null's (obvious) aimbot. There was already enough "zomg aimbot" hysteria on those servers before aimbots were widely available (I got kicked twice for aimbotting, and I'm not exactly the greatest player ever), and now it's getting ridiculous.
There are only two ways to eliminate the worries about Null's aimbot for the time being, and they are: 1.) make your server require the backport client to be played on, and 2.) educate your administrators on what an aimbot looks like, both from spectator view and when you're fighting against/working beside it.
A little story regarding the latter. I brought up the spread of Null's aimbot at my weekly LAN party, and then we decided to have some fun with it by having a 5 on 5 aimbot battle. After a couple of hours watching those aimbots at work, it becomes fairly easy to see when they're being used without even having to spectate the guy (though you probably want to, so you can both be 100% sure and grab a demo). I suggest that you try something like this sometime if you can get the chance. You have to know your enemy to fight it, amirite?
Take all that for what you will.
what name do you play under on D*S.
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Cant feeding be the natural result of going up against aimbots? If that is the case, than you are loosing because of aimbots mowing down your team. Or at least it is a contributing factor.
Feeding is done by the opponents. You can't shoot something unless its running straight at you.
You sir, clearly don't know aimbots. If you did, you'd understand his point.
*Game starts*
*Moron turns his cool new aimbot on*
*Moron holds left mouse button down*
*Moron kills everything that comes in sight*
temple: FEEDRRS!
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Cant feeding be the natural result of going up against aimbots? If that is the case, than you are loosing because of aimbots mowing down your team. Or at least it is a contributing factor.
Feeding is done by the opponents. You can't shoot something unless its running straight at you.
You sir, clearly don't know aimbots. If you did, you'd understand his point.
*Game starts*
*Moron turns his cool new aimbot on*
*Moron holds left mouse button down*
*Moron kills everything that comes in sight*
temple: FEEDRRS!
That's not what I'm talking about.
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Then why was it in response to that post? You quoted it =/
Either way, I don't lose because someone is mowing down my team. I've lost a lot lately because the standard stupid shit (teammates feeding, not bulding, etc).
Cant feeding be the natural result of going up against aimbots? If that is the case, than you are loosing because of aimbots mowing down your team. Or at least it is a contributing factor.
Feeding is done by the opponents. You can't shoot something unless its running straight at you. The human team isn't getting more kills than usual and the top scorers are the same players that always did well. Its a lot of new people that are crapping up games.
jigidyjensen1's point was that you might think you're not losing because of one guy using an aimbot, but it might just be that one guy who's causing the 'feeding' you say is the reason for your loss.
You can't shoot something unless it's running straight at you? Yes you can. Especially if you have an aimbot.
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Aimbots hit EVERY enemy player in visual range. Aimbotters who can dodge ALWAYS lead in kills, atleast on unlagged, so long as they're botting.
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Cock up before conspiracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_Razor
Whereas on a server without Unlagged, feeding dretches just run straight into turrets. With Unlagged, the noob humans are able to shoot the noob dretches first.
I'm on the watch for aimbotters but no one is (with the exception of a few) is logging on D*S and racking up a shitload of kills out the blue. In fact, an aimbotter wouldn't last a full match before kicked if they actually exploited the aimbot to its potential.
Like I said before, if an aimbotter isn't exploiting the bot to the max...well fuck it anyway.
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I guess I should mention that the painsaw aimbot I saw yesterday morning (mentioned earlier in the thread) was actually on D*S Painsaw.
In all honesty, does it really not seem obvious that it would happen that way? The majority of North American noob players (no offense to the actual players on D*S servers) gravitate towards super-large servers like D*S (or S11). These guys are, of course, going to be the most likely to go grab Null's (obvious) aimbot. There was already enough "zomg aimbot" hysteria on those servers before aimbots were widely available (I got kicked twice for aimbotting, and I'm not exactly the greatest player ever), and now it's getting ridiculous.
There are only two ways to eliminate the worries about Null's aimbot for the time being, and they are: 1.) make your server require the backport client to be played on, and 2.) educate your administrators on what an aimbot looks like, both from spectator view and when you're fighting against/working beside it.
A little story regarding the latter. I brought up the spread of Null's aimbot at my weekly LAN party, and then we decided to have some fun with it by having a 5 on 5 aimbot battle. After a couple of hours watching those aimbots at work, it becomes fairly easy to see when they're being used without even having to spectate the guy (though you probably want to, so you can both be 100% sure and grab a demo). I suggest that you try something like this sometime if you can get the chance. You have to know your enemy to fight it, amirite?
Take all that for what you will.
Do you have a demo of that? It would be quite enjoyable to watch. :D
As for aimbots, on D*S there are currently about 20 or so bans. about 17 or so are permanent or close to it. About 15 or so of those are for aimbots. So yes, they do exist, but most of them are the same person. Sort of the same situation with deconners.
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Admins (not the server owners) are, always have been, and most likely always will be, the most retarted idiots out there when to comes to banning the right people. There is no amount of education that'll get those fucktards to ban the right people, the only exception to that is the admins on SST| an,d from what I hear, D*S.
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Many admins are just normal people. Normal people aren't always the most understanding kind of people. You for example are a normal person who has a rather harsh prejudice against admins.
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Do you have a demo of that? It would be quite enjoyable to watch. :D
Sorry. :P We were just dicking around at the time, so none of us demo'd it.
If I ever do something like that again, though, I'll grab a demo just for you Ray. :D
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I think that wider distribution of tjw's backport with guid built in would help.
Not so that we can track griefers, but so that we have a whitelist of known good players.
A good blacklist will never be as effective as a good whitelist. Indeed, by its very definition, a blacklist allows everyone (except blah blah and blah).
This, combined with competant admins can easily reduce the problem to a managable level. If aimbotters are forced to add in measures to the aimbot, such as slower movement, less than 100% accuracy, etc, in order to avoid suspicion, then they are reducing the effectiveness of the aimbot.
Back to my main point, I think a good step for this would be to distribute the backport on the main website, for example saying that the stock 1.1 version has been deprecated etc etc, or even just a brief blurb and a link. The client on the official site is hopelessly out of date.
At one point a few months ago D*S required backport - the server would reject any player without a GUID. IIRC that experiment didn't last long, but it did force everyone on at the time to at least download tjw.
+1 on deprecating the stock client and putting up tjw as the default client in trem.net's Files area. Of course requiring GUIDs would have no effect on <the bot that shall not be named> since the tjw version of the bot is available on http://*mumble* and http://*ahem*cough*. GUIDs are good for admin-ing even if they are no longer useful as a bot-free flag.
And your point on whitelists bears repeating - blacklists are worthless as long as new identities are free. If Trem were as popular as WoW, we'd have to worry about a cottage industry of people building up good karma GUIDs and selling them to h4x0rz for real money. But for now, karma (from which whitelists or privilege levels would be derived) + GUID authentication is the most promising approach to dealing with grieftrash.
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Whereas on a server without Unlagged, feeding dretches just run straight into turrets. With Unlagged, the noob humans are able to shoot the noob dretches first.
I am really puzzled by this statement. First you stated that Unlagged is not to help noobs. 2nd, if a guy can't aim, a guy can't aim with or without Unlagged.
A dum dretch is a dum dretch regardless of Unlagged. However if you exchange Unlagged with Aimbot in that last sentence, it makes perfect sense.
I'm on the watch for aimbotters but no one is (with the exception of a few) is logging on D*S and racking up a shitload of kills out the blue. In fact, an aimbotter wouldn't last a full match before kicked if they actually exploited the aimbot to its potential.
This is what people refer to when they say that the only good solution to aimbot is a well managed server.
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Dretches running straight dont get killed only that way... aimbotters can kill dretches going side 2 side, wallwalking..
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Couldnt you autokick anybody wih a hit ratio of say 95% or over?
It could only kick in after a minimum of like 10 shots, cos it wouldnt be so rare to hit every time out of such a low number of shots fired, but Id challenge anyone to score over 95% shots on target without assistance..
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if you're botting on a server this is implemented on, just shoot the wall.
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Couldnt you autokick anybody wih a hit ratio of say 95% or over?
It could only kick in after a minimum of like 10 shots, cos it wouldnt be so rare to hit every time out of such a low number of shots fired, but Id challenge anyone to score over 95% shots on target without assistance..
10 Shots ? I know plenty of people myself included that can it more then 10 shots dead on depending on what your shooting at
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Join in sd, spawn rifle, leave base and find a rant.
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Join in sd, spawn rifle, leave base and find a rant.
not even that, i know at least one person that hits 90% of his shots in the entire game (it would be well over 95% if someone /shares him 350 for md)
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KnuckleS
http://uploaded.to/?id=xt3zgd
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OmG MINor NECROZ!
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Aron
demo (http://uploaded.to/?id=cri3ac)
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I don't see at demo with Aron any shadow of aimbot. I know him and I know what he is able to do, and that was pure skills ( shooting, dodging ).
If you want compare - see how aimbot is acting like - download this (http://rapidshare.com/files/63504534/cru2.dm_69) demo. You can simply see at this demo that aimbotter's aiming is amazing accurate, and is pointing only one place at humans body.
In Aron case you can't say that is the same he wasn't shooting at the same point at goon's body.
Btw... Why didn't you record demo longer ? He abandoned Humans and joined aliens, you could record more. I think you knew that he is not aimboting and you just wanted to compromise him... huh ?
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Demo with KnuckleS is too laged to say that he is aimbotting... make better one with his gameplay. And the same as above... Why the hell are you recording so short demos ?
That is what i think...
d0t.
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I feel bad about it, but is impossible kill dragoon with one magazine of rifle without aimbot. And second, whole fight he have aimed exact in centre of dragoon without missed. Sorry but i know what i see. I respect clan d0t, you have pro players and i don't need compromise other players. I want only protect players who played fair with only skills, without cheats. Demo is so short, because, when i switched to spectators he turn off aimbot. I mus wait when he again turn on. He turning aimbot occasionally, not all game. I have no problem fight with him, when he is so good. Because i mean, he is beginner, or, another player play by its nick. Thats all, and Knuckles is unmistakable aimbot.
Nice day
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Wow, the lack of clue here is amazing.
Okay, first of all, Sentinel, NEITHER of your demos show aimbotting.
Second of all, d0t, your demo doesn't show aimbotting either.
Third, Sentinel, if you do some simple math you'll learn the following:- 1 rifle bullet = 5 hp
- Rifle magazine = 30 bullets
- Max damage from one magazine = 5 * 30 = 150 hp
- Dragoon health = 200
- 200 > 150
Therefore, it's completely impossible to kill a goon with one rifle magazine no matter how good you aim. The goon was already below 100 hp to start with, hence, easy kill.
Let's take these in order. I was going to offer some long complicated analyses, but instead I'll do short biting sarcastic comments:- KnuckleS : (from Sentinel) Several times, he literally RAN INTO dretches before he even noticed they were there. His aim was all over the place. Lasgun + jerky aim do not equal aimbot. Get a clue. Next!
- Aron : (from Sentinel) Sure, he consistently aimed at the goon. Goons are big. Easy to hit. Up close, even easier. What's important is, within the goon, his aim was variable, not fixed rigidly on one spot. Not an aimbot. Next!
- Crusaider : (from d0t) This player sucks. More importantly, his AIM sucks. He had maybe 2 or 3 headshots during the first 10 minutes, and I think only 1 or 2 kills. His aim did not ever rigidly lock on the closest enemy, he often mis-aimed, his aim often "hunted" even while focused on one target. Once again, jerky mouse technique does NOT equal aimbot. Get a clue. Next!
Someone post a demo of a real aimbot so these guys can learn to tell the difference.
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OK, then post you example, because i am not idiot. When this demos are not aimbots, then i totally noob and i should leave this game, where some one cheats and that is all right.
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If you suspect someone is aimbotting, try tking him a few times and see how he fares against you. I've met 2 aimbots once, in our Z|R server.
I made sure one joined aliens, so that i could join the humans and kill him of a few times. After he noticed that i wasn't being nice towards him, he fired back. I think that if you randomly move your mouse, the hit-ratio would've been better lol.
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This thread is so typical of Boons that get pissed off because they can't hit shit.
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- Crusaider : (from d0t) This player sucks. More importantly, his AIM sucks. He had maybe 2 or 3 headshots during the first 10 minutes, and I think only 1 or 2 kills. His aim did not ever rigidly lock on the closest enemy, he often mis-aimed, his aim often "hunted" even while focused on one target. Once again, jerky mouse technique does NOT equal aimbot. Get a clue. Next!
Someone post a demo of a real aimbot so these guys can learn to tell the difference.
Well... If you still don't see aimbotting in Crusaider gameplay check this (http://rapidshare.com/files/62153487/cru.dm_69) demo of his gameplay.
If you want few more demos with aimbotters please visit this (http://savefile.com/projects/808497861) site with 6 aimbotters I've caught some time ago. Aimbotters from those demos are:
- 1st - Unnamed Play
- 2nd - Unnamed Play
- 3rd - {TNM}IcecoldkillaH
- 4th - Creative
- 5th - Queen of Noobia
- 6th - (SHE)Kainii2
If you still won't see any aimbotting there...Someone post a demo of a real aimbot for FooBar so he can learn to tell the difference. ( :evil: )
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hard-disk or motherboard ID is harder.
work it into a public key system, and were going good.
Of course, being OSS it will get avoided, but it will slow the shit bags down.
it won't slow them down. the solution is to give out signed qkey's for a small donation ($5 or something), and allow servers the option to only accept guids signed by timbo. (timbo had a similar idea, except with a central server and accounts replacing the digital signatures)
timbo is wise
Dont turn this into wow, cause thats just like making it so u have to pay for trem. :/
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Hmm... second demo of crusaider is a mixed bag. He's obviously aimbotting right at the very end, but only for a couple of seconds. Prior to that, no. Fighting the goon, his aim is all over the place. Fighting the mara, same. Only the mara at the end is it obvious. His aimbot sucks, by the way: it targets his teammates as well! That's how I was able to see it.
1st - Sure, it's an aimbot, he even admits it.
2nd - Same player. Obvious, classic aimbot.
3rd - Yup, nice aimbot.
4th - Totally an aimbot, classic.
5th - Yup, aimbot. Harder to tell at first because that player sucks so much.
6th - Yes, aimbot. Not very clear until the end. Used it very intermittently. Sometimes completely failed to hit anything.
Okay, I apologize. I re-watched the first Crusaider movie, and now I can see it. The reason I missed it before is, he's such a sucky player that even WITH the aimbot he can't get kills. :) Plus, he turns it on and off all the time.
I still don't see it in the Aron demo, although he has pretty good aim.
The Knuckles demo is weird. Re-watching it, it's not a classic aimbot at all. No "lock-on" effect. He's aiming all over the place. And yet... he gets kills. He never seems to be aiming at dretches, but he hits them anyway. Does anyone else see that, or is it just me? I guess this could be an aimbot, but it's missing most of the classic signs.
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I was the one recording those crusaider demos. It's not just at the end that it's noticable. You can see him near the start having trouble keeping it from aiming at teammates. Plus, at times his aim follows the enemies as they go behind walls.
The Knuckles demo is weird. Re-watching it, it's not a classic aimbot at all. No "lock-on" effect. He's aiming all over the place. And yet... he gets kills. He never seems to be aiming at dretches, but he hits them anyway. Does anyone else see that, or is it just me? I guess this could be an aimbot, but it's missing most of the classic signs.
That sounds like unlagged at work to me. On his screen it probably made a whole lot more sense.
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The Knuckles demo is characteristic of the kind of 'double lag' you get when one player specs another, an effect made more obvious by unlagged. It makes it much more difficult to determine whether or not he was actually botting but I have to say it looks pretty likely sometimes.
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The Knuckles demo is characteristic of the kind of 'double lag' you get when one player specs another, an effect made more obvious by unlagged. It makes it much more difficult to determine whether or not he was actually botting but I have to say it looks pretty likely sometimes.
How about checking to see if any bullets hit the surrounding environment? Even experienced players miss shots because they are human.
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How about checking to see if any bullets hit the surrounding environment? Even experienced players miss shots because they are human.
Go on then :P but you can't prove that he's not toggling it on and off. You can't ever prove anything, of course - it's all a matter of judgment.
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How about checking to see if any bullets hit the surrounding environment? Even experienced players miss shots because they are human.
That's how I finally spotted it. I thought he was missing all his shots, until I realized that there were no bullet marks on the walls, but there WERE little splashes of alien blood in mid-air. That, and he got credit for all the kills. :)
The Knuckles video is interesting because, even ignoring the double-lag effect, the aimbot just doesn't seem to "snap" to target the way a classic aimbot does. It may be that the player is more skilled with the bot, and only turns it on in very short spurts.
For me, big markers of an aimbot are instant switching from one target to another, and inhuman tracking when moving quickly around a target. The better aimbotters don't seem to show this very often, possibly because they turn it off and on regularly. Or maybe the bots are just getting better-designed?
I was the one recording those crusaider demos. It's not just at the end that it's noticable. You can see him near the start having trouble keeping it from aiming at teammates. Plus, at times his aim follows the enemies as they go behind walls.
Yeah, targeting his own teammates was how I finally realized it was an aimbot. It's funny, I think he actually shot his teammates more effectively than he shot the aliens. I noticed the wall thing too, but the first time I thought he was pre-aiming using radar. Repeat viewings made a little more sense.
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Dont forget "auto fire". He could have just had an auto fire option turned on so his guns would only shoot when an alien hitbox is under his crosshairs. This can fool spectators who look for the snapping auto aim.
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This is interesting. As the thread title (refering to aimbots) suggests, we are aware of the spread of aimbots only because they are so obvious. Does anyone know if there is a 'firebot' made for tremulous freely available?
In either case though a tell tale sign is the lack of missed shots. So long as when they miss those shots, they seem to be still following the target, this should suffice as evidence. The player is using the aimbot because he can't follow the target fast enough, so upon the turning off his aimbot (to miss some shots) he would not be able to follow it realistically.
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This thread suggests Aimbots are an issue, while in practice you get about 1 botter a week, which isn't an issue at all. You can always keep talking about it and try to fool everybody into thinking it really is something important. Or you can just let it rest and ignore it, which in my totally irrelvant opinion is the best option.
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I do find how to spot an aimbotter quite relevant for the game. Not so much in the sense to be able to spot them, but to make clear to some other individuals what is not an aimbotter.
The fun of the game can be equally destroyed by constant suspicion and accusations of aimbot than aimbot usage itself.
A very common pattern for people that feel they need to aimbot is that they are completely convinced that anybody better as themself must be cheating and thus by cheating themself they just level it out. SmartGun or/and Crusader are examples of this.
When they learn that e.g. the demo of Aron is not an aimbot, maybe they will start to realize how dumb their actions are and give people the peace they deserve while playing the game.
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Currently, 9.9 out of 10 supposed botters are completely legit players. All this talking about aimbots will not help at all.
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Currently, 9.9 out of 10 supposed botters are completely legit players.
That's what I was trying to say. But I feel that the 9.9 false complaints is at least as damaging to the game as the small percentage of real botters.
In that regards I found FooBar's evaluation of the demos very helpful for those that see a bot in every kill, and therefor not a useless or panic feeding post.
Btw....what is a 0.9 botter? :P
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Btw....what is a 0.9 botter? :P
A botter without his hat on?
I personally don't subscribe to the "let's not talk about it so people don't think about it" philosophy. Things are better discussed and concluded in my opinion.
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Yes, i am totally noob. When is another better than me, i sign them as aimbotters, because i totally don't know, what aimbotting is. I played this game more than one year often. Myself have problem with my skills. Sometimes i am signed as aimbotter, because i am good and always have mostly kills. I flustrated from this state. When i play fair i aimbotting and when anybody use cheat, i record them and lol, they non cheat. This is not fair... A long time i don't use lasgun, because i would immediately signed as aimbotter. Players solving problems like: new graphic, mods, gameplay, yes is nice, but is unavailing when game is messed-up with cheaters. New version is far away, and i don't know will be any solution here. This game is great, and lots of thanks belongs to developers and to this forum and his great people who support this game. I have decided. I never broke any game... and i know different between cheater and pro player... I stopping play this game with tear in eye. Yes, i know thats all depends on people, they are good or no. But latest days have i more nerves as fun. I have to know here many good people. Thanks for that games :) And, i don't change nick for continue playing as somebody other. I am going definitely. Maybe it is that better...
Excuse for my english and disarranged cogitation, since i tired from work.
Bye
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I am going definitely. Maybe it is that better...
Sentinel...I apologize for making you think I meant you with that. Don't leave the game because of this. I was not talking about you in particular, you seem selfcritical enough for not being a threat to the game, i wish more people were like that.
At least you went spec and made a demo. There are other players in the game who are far from that and ruin the game for everyone.
I actually found your demo quite useful: Aron (and others) has been getting enough complaints and your demo is a good indication that these complaints are without grounds. I prefer people like you, posting demos, to people following players around servers and trying to give them a bad name, without ever speccing them or making a demo for second evaluation.
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While it does seem that the occurances of aimbotters is reducing since the cheat came out I think there is still value in discussing the issue. The reason being is for education. There are quite a number of people who do not quite know what to look for or how to spot a cheater. In addition to this there are various types of cheats. There's of course the aimbots, but there's also wall hackers and those who have the hax for detailed player information.
On starting gaming there is seemingly no "Beginners Guide to Spotting a Cheater" so discussing this issue in forums such as this can be beneficial for those people.
I do however agree there there is an apparent paranoia in the community. I consider this to actually be realistic since tremulous is not exactly the kind of game that filters out people due to cost or server subscriptions. Other game servers might charge you a monthly fee for access, Tremulous doesn't so there's nothing to lose if you are banned. Additionally it's really easy to change GUID and names without leaving any trail, so for most people bans are really easy to circumvent. All this amounts to is people feeling a little insecure by being cheated out of a win by people who are cheating. Hrm, makes sense really.
I don't blame people for being a little paranoid about aimbots but maybe some people haven't had to deal with them before. Do we stop talking about them? I don't really think so. Should we be a little less paranoid? Yes, definately. Being accused of haxing is like a cancer that spreads, hurting both the accused, the wider community and the accuser in the end.
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Yes, it's much more beneficial to keep talking about those 10 odd aimbot users, instead of just forget about those losers and play Tremulous.
Drama, drama, drama.
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who needs aimbot when you have my kind of mad skills
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Yes, it's much more beneficial to keep talking about those 10 odd aimbot users, instead of just forget about those losers and play Tremulous.
Drama, drama, drama.
This being a 12 page long thread (and expanding), it's quite clear that people here on the forums benefit from talking about it. They want to discuss it. This thread is twice the size of the next biggest front page thread and 4 times as big as the next leading non-sticky.
This isn't even spam. People have views to share which exceed the 2 word mark.
This isn't off-topic. Cheating is one of the larger issues with an open-source game like tremulous. You might disagree, but the public in their majority dominate the opinions board.
You've made up your mind, now let everyone else make up theirs.
Once more I'll say..
I personally don't subscribe to the "let's not talk about it so people don't think about it" philosophy. Things are better discussed and concluded in my opinion.
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Shorthand
The thing lava is trying to express is that everything that can effectively be said has been said. And also it is not that information on cheating has been contained, only duplicate entries and direct references on how to obtain these cheats have been stopped.
If you can start giving me new information then your point is valid, but merely discussing so and so is a cheater is simply not valid since there is no reliable identification system in place. Identifying a cheater is a knack people either pick up by playing a lot and feeling the unnatural behaviour of cheaters or looking through the numerous past threads which expand upon it. But to keep opening new ones is a nuisance.
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This thread has served the additional purpose of giving a verdict on suspected aimbots. If this thread wasn't available to post in, those same queries would be posted in separate threads with each suspected case.
I should think it's in the mods own best-interest to leave this thread open, as it avoids the unnecessary clutter of the inevitable "aimbot?" threads.
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Which purpose does this verdict serve? Oh he's a cheater, but we don't know if he is really him, nor can we do anything about the supposed him since all identification material that we do have is easily spoofed.
Note that I am not for closing this topic, but just against the general unnecessary banter of this kind of topic.
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I don't remember saying 'Shorthand'. :O
In my opinion, this topic is one of the better ones. Bearing in mind the frequent topics from very new players who have decided that it must be the game that's wrong, and the many polls that serve no actual statistical purpose but look 'funny', a topic like this is a ray of sunshine.
Viewing past threads is all very well and good if you're on a fact finding mission. I don't think that's why people are talking here though. From what I've seen, the tone of these forums is alot more informal than that. Is this bad?
When did talking become a bad thing?
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This topic arguably contains all information that has been gathered and deemed usefull up till now. This does not mean constantly adding new information to it is a good thing, it might even make the topic more uncomfortable to read and reduce the quality of it.
That the forum is so informal is a consequence of most users here. In my opinion any and all non trem-related and fun-stuff trem related topics should go to off-topic. But I'd have a day job on moving them all and most users don't seem to grasp the meaning of correct topic posting.
In short, talking isn't a bad thing. Stating the obvious over and over is.
And shorthand is one of the terms used to shorten long posts in quotes which were not long ago but to which you still want to refer.
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Stating the obvious over and over is.
I think its mostly one or more mod that repeats phrases, in that they find it not useful to write in this topic :D Other posters i didn't find quite as repetitive :P
Acttually, I found some of the newer posts quite interesting and helpful (e.g. FooBar's post). And you have to agree with Nux and Plague, that atleast one topic for the whole subject is a lot better than a new topic over and over.
Since this is user driven contents, its user driven contents:P
Now lets stop discussing the usefulness of the topic, since thats just a lot of extra uninteresting clutter.