Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: tv on July 01, 2007, 11:43:45 am
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The time has finally come, for a real Tremulous tournament.
I have seen a lot of attempts to such a thing, every two weeks a newbie tries to organize his own for the french community. I can't say I'm really surprised, but it never worked out. Anyway, with my fellow clan-friends, I've put a lot of thought into this.
We've developped a Mod, and it's all explained here (http://clans.tremulous.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=68). Now... I'm sure some of you will hate this idea. I've had people telling me it could never work, blablabla, without even trying it.
Well, I'm not going to ask you to try it, and I'm not asking you to join my tournament.
Right now, in order to promote this Mod, and to show how it's much more enjoyable to play with it, we'll be having an Exhibition Tournament.
4 of the best European clans will play against each others for two weeks on a server who will host up to 20 spectators during every game, starting tomorrow.
Here's the planning :
* 02/07 17:00 GMT - CY vs lead / done.
* 03/07 19:00 GMT - [F]lame vs =V= / done.
* 04/07 19:00 GMT - [F]lame vs CY / done.
* 05/07 19:30 GMT - lead vs =V= / done.
* 06/07 19:00 GMT - CY vs =V= / POSTPONED.
* 07/07 19:00 GMT - [F]lame vs lead / done.
All the matches will be played on DASPRiD's ProMod.
The server will be locked, and the password will be : promod
Rules, settings, demos and results can be or will be found here (http://lawl.be/ETL/exhibition.txt).
You're all invited.
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lolmod?
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"Pro"Mod... xD
I don't know how to attack a base, so i camp in the middle of the map and wait S3 or feeders :P
I'm sur that this mod is a pub for a french site: http://www.promod.com/odyssee/src/Home.asp?lg=FR
Pom pom pom...
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hey, this sounds pretty neat. hope it works out for ya.
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Are you aware of teh severe disadvantage humans have at S1? Dretch headshots mean they have to stay close to base for the medi's. It's not girly, it's strategic. Camping is only camping if you have an advantage over the other team. Humans camping untill they get head protection is smart, and since most humans can be taken out in a 1v1 fight, doing anything but staying close to the base is basically feeding.
I'm not against the over all idea, I'm against your examples. Infact, I'm pissed that you think that's a "girly" way of playing.
Also, you do know that without structures it's unlikely humans will be able to hold that point for a constant six minutes, unless of course you give them an armoury and a medistation. It really seems that you are unaware of most of the human nuances in this game. Maybe you should consider playing some other game.
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Maybe you should consider that the point of this mod is to get players out of their base, and if that's done, then there's no reason any team should get a stage and credits just for holding a point.
The basic idea was to make a mod, or a patch, that would prevent camping teams from winning (and make those boring games end faster....), while not changing the gameplay when neither team would camp (the least possible anyways).
The point HAD to be unholdable against a not-camping team.
Dretches have no advantage over rifles... and camping isn't smart, it's boring. I'll tell you, the game is sufficiently balanced when both teams fight without structures around.
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I'm not even going to bother argue with you if you're going to be closed minded about this.
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You're complaining about how it's impossible to control the point for 6 minutes in a row, as humans, if aliens aren't camping. But that's the whole point of this mod. What am I supposed to say ?
I played these games were there are naked humans and dretches all around, and humans won as often as aliens, so again... what can I say ?
Don't be offended by the "girly" I used. I enjoy the games where everybody is rushing all the time, and I don't see any interest in playing against humans who are going to camp on their turrets until they get an advantage over the other team.
I don't think you deserve to get S2 if all you did was camp.
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You give a big avantage for team strong to control the map and strongless to attack bases (hum.... CY for exemple ?), and you still the skill of teams strong to attack bases before s3, who know make speed bloody rush, but weak to keep a map control.
You say to control the point for 6minutes is impossible ? is it really impossible if... for exemple aliens are s2 and humans still s1 ?
So, you remove all chances to humains to catch again the advantage.
You affect tremulous to give it only what you want.
It's easy to say it's work, have you test it against campers teams, or only with friendly fair-play teams ?
I have interest for a tournament, but a tournament without this patch.
Maybe it could be a good mod, but it's not tremulous.
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As Azrael said, a real Tremulous tournament is one that runs base Tremulous 1.1.0. No extra patches, just plain Tremulous. What's the point of having the control point if you can't hold it for 6 minutes? To get people to fight over it? It's pointless.
Look, humans are base dependant, one headshot and they're screwed, they have to stay close to base or else they're feeding. What don't you get about that?
I'll bet you're one of the tyrant that hides around the human base exit screaming "CAMPERS" at the naked humans.
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I'll bet you're one of the tyrant that hides around the human base exit screaming "CAMPERS" at the naked humans.
Nope, I'm one who hardly ever plays alien because I'm bored of the camping humans. So I play human and rush. Believe it or not, I've won games.
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against who?
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You.
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Hey guys, what do you think about just watching the exhibition to see what will going on with the plug in and after you will talk about what you have seen ?
Or if you don't want, you could just let this this topic down and continue your way ....
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Planning updated.
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it's simple mathematic, whit strafejump or bunnyhop Aliens can be 4 time faster then every Human, the rest is history. Aliens can camp and hold mapcontrol at same time, Human's can't , they are to slow. Now it is said everything, however not yet by everyone.
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I'll bet you're one of the tyrant that hides around the human base exit screaming "CAMPERS" at the naked humans.
Nope, I'm one who hardly ever plays alien because I'm bored of the camping humans. So I play human and rush. Believe it or not, I've won games.
Really?
How many times did you die rushing the aliens, or were you playing on an empty server?
Its just gay yelling Come out Campers when there are a bvazillion rants and goons outrside while humans are on S1, its totally lame.
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You.
that pretty much says it all seeing how i'm a noob.
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I m afraid to see that all people are resigned to think that alien are too strong to rush at s1 ... :-/
Buy skill plz
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Good luck with your Domination Tourney! Only too bad you are dumb enough to call it 'promod'. Such a name can only mean utter failure :(
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Don't like it? Don't play it! Simple.
GL to all the participating teams.
And to those who rant on this topic. Learn to play a non-camping game with your clanmates. Yeah i know. It's too much skill involved for you to do such thing.
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Noes...
camping is a integral part of the game. It should not be prevented under any circumanstances.
Any anti-camp = phail.
Good idea for the tournament, but if there is one thing you do, remove the 'anti-camp'.
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We remove anti-camp plugin when teams stop camp vs us.
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So we don't take part to your tournament :p
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Noes...
camping is a integral part of the game. It should not be prevented under any circumanstances.
Any anti-camp = phail.
Good idea for the tournament, but if there is one thing you do, remove the 'anti-camp'.
Have you ever played a clan war? I'm almost sure that you didn't. Camping isn't a part of the game. If both teams were caming the game would make no sense.
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Look, humans are base dependant, one headshot and they're screwed, they have to stay close to base or else they're feeding.
By that same logic, one quick rifle burst kills a dretch, therefore aliens are equally screwed.
I've seen many human teams do extremely well by rushing early. The key is to stick together. A human by himself has little chance to escape a dretch if his initial rifle bursts go astray. But if he's with a group then the other humans can cover him while he reloads and/or runs back to base to heal after getting a head bite. And even if he's killed, the dretch is also likely to die.
There are other factors at work, of course. Certain maps will favor the alien team regardless, as will a larger number of players on the server. But it is not true that humans must camp to do well. Frequently I'd argue that camping is what dooms the human team - they are unwilling to leave their base and chase down injured aliens, so the alien attack is prolonged indefinitely.
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Camping is a tactic to an extent.
If one team is camping it's ass off for 43 minutes while the other team just rushes and rushes and rushes trying to win without camping. That ruins the scrimmage.
However, something that forces both teams to do something more than get frags and s3 then kill base would be much welcomed. However, giving stages aren't really a good thing. I'd rather have domination over pro-mod.
What good is a clan that can't gather it's own stages without protecting a certain point of a map.
Also, seems alien biased because a goon could just pounce through it all and touch it instantly. Which is very hard to stop with rifles. Even with 3 shotguns, a goon will be able to pounce through and touch the point.
Good luck with the mod though.
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What good is a clan that can't gather it's own stages without protecting a certain point of a map.
If you ever play with this mod, don't except to gain your stages by control.
Again, if no teams are camping, the control will never be kept for 6 minutes, thus, the gameplay will go as usual and you'll get your credits and stages by fragging.
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CY: The only clan in the entire universe that does not camp.
Respect them!
Believe in them!
And you will recieve from them!
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CY: The only clan in the entire universe that does not camp.
Respect them!
Believe in them!
And you will recieve from them!
Yeah, that was lame. I don't have anymore arguments. So lets flame somebody to be cool. Bravo!
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No camp ? No feed ? No problem ? Not pro-alien mod ?
Lead vs cy (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20Lead%20vs%20cy%20atcs.AVI)
CY vs Lead (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20cy%20vs%20lead%20atcs.AVI)
Window room (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/PrOMod.AVI)
Outpost atcs (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20outpoust%20atcs.AVI)
Hey tyrants, at Stage 3, don't forget to camp near human's base to block them and earn lots of evos with feed and repeater bonus, and never really attack before, better way to fuck humans with a final rush.
More generaly, never attack, you just have to wait them far of their base, near repeater, and get S3 before they're S2.
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Yet, somehow, CY won the human games.
Getting killed isn't feed Puzzola, especially during a clan war when both teams are organized.
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Getting killed over and over when you know what you're running into is feeding.
Those damned pages aren't loading, what's on them?
Are you saying an organised team can't feed no matter what they do?
I'm really starting to think you're a noob at understanding this game, tv.
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Getting killed over and over when you know what you're running into is feeding.
Those damned pages aren't loading, what's on them?
Some videos (.avi) of "pro"mod. I can upload on googlevideo if you want.
I'm really starting to think you're a noob at understanding this game, tv.
<3
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Ah, that'd be nice. Make 'em public. =P =D
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Uploaded, but really bad quality:
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=7055892518494243829
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=5320161034878537486
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-2097115591004036640
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-5536725318630679106
(and sorry for the music :P)
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From my experience, humans have an advantage over dretches '1 on 1.' Yes, good dretches won't approach you from long distances, but even so, it's still possible to dodge dretches in close quarters. In fact, during all the 1v1 practice sessions I've held with people, humans almost always win, because the human never lets the alien get a goon (or if so, one goon maximum). Humans aren't exactly screwed after one headbite - it takes two to kill a human. Just don't let the dretch bite you twice. Same for the dretches - don't let a human rifle you 5 times.
I can understand camping if the opposing team has 2-3 dragoons, but camping against dretches is unheard of in high level games. Humans are far from being THAT base dependent.
About this tournament: it is pretty silly to dub this the 'promod.' From what I saw of the one video I watched, it looked like the aliens were camping the domination point, instead of the human base entrances. Hence, it does not seem to prevent camping as claimed - just base camping. Call this the domination tournament or something.
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tv, did you honestly think that a stageup and evos every six minutes would make people leave that repeater behind and not camp?
Maybe you should play another game.
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It's not that I don't understand, Plague Bringer, I can see how camping can make you win a game. I just think it shouldn't. Ever.
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No camp ? No feed ? No problem ? Not pro-alien mod ?
Lead vs cy (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20Lead%20vs%20cy%20atcs.AVI)
CY vs Lead (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20cy%20vs%20lead%20atcs.AVI)
Window room (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/PrOMod.AVI)
Outpost atcs (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20outpoust%20atcs.AVI)
Hey tyrants, at Stage 3, don't forget to camp near human's base to block them and earn lots of evos with feed and repeater bonus, and never really attack before, better way to fuck humans with a final rush.
More generaly, never attack, you just have to wait them far of their base, near repeater, and get S3 before they're S2.
Oh dear, you re so nice and kind to show some videos to people, but maybe you forgot some little things ... :D
1 - Cy v lead on atcs ------- > tadaaaa CY human won the game but you dident said of showed that :)
2 - CY alien v lead human ----> where is the prob ? i can show you many other game without the repeater and the game look like similar and ... maybe i have someone vs you.
3 - Window room. -------> We have already planed to fixe that problem and you know it, i dont understand why you show that. :)
4 - Adv outpost --------> Well and ? If the humans let you build it, it's all for you, i dont see any problem, your team look like more stronger and you will win. GG to you.
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Noes...
camping is a integral part of the game. It should not be prevented under any circumanstances.
Any anti-camp = phail.
Good idea for the tournament, but if there is one thing you do, remove the 'anti-camp'.
Have you ever played a clan war? I'm almost sure that you didn't. Camping isn't a part of the game. If both teams were caming the game would make no sense.
if the aliens get a few goons early game, the humans are stupid to try and take them on with rifles. wait in base for a few mins maybe rifling a dretch or two (maybe even a goon if you chase). after you get creds for shotguns, then try leaving the base. camping may be needed, but not for the entire game of course.
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[F]lame 4 | =V= 0
Very fast game and agressiv.
Control Point was useless coz no equip camp :]
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I had completely forgotten about the control point in the first game. Suddenly I'm startled by this floating repeater of doom.. then I remembered ^^.
I have this problem staying still you see. >.> Not sure what this 'camping' thing is. =)
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OK , I want to know what this fucker has against me.
I was enjoying a scrim =V= vs [F]lame asking questions such as what are the nationalities of the clan etc etc. But then... I got banned by this dude ( Mercury[F]lame )
I got banned either for no reason or for asking what is the difference from Dasprid's ProMod from normal servers.
Also, this dude did it to me again on the [F]lame server apparently for having more kills then he did (in less time). For the same reason listed here.
What I don't know is how he knew it was me since the first time he banned me I was using a different name. (Stalker?)
(http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/6779/untitledgg8.png)
So I ask again..who is this abusing fucker and what does he want?
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OK , I want to know what this fucker has against me.
!ban
seems to work
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sad.
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All of a sudden I feel rather bad about myself for posting that in this thread. Could someone please move this, my above and nitrox's post to a separate thread so we can keep this one clean and only about ETL.
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Nitrox, please try to stay on topic here. I'll not remind you of how most forum participants feel about people posting whiney 'zomg i gots banned' things.
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Nitrox, please try to stay on topic here. I'll not remind you of how most forum participants feel about people posting whiney 'zomg i gots banned' things.
I love it when people do it.
I h8 when key-happy admins get jealous.
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lame forum"]Hmm, was about to permaban you from these forums, but then I thought: "Hey, this boy is so raged, we need to help him!". So, if you can post pictures that depict you helping little kittens, you can stay. Hope that is some incentive to do something good for once.
Since he wasn't mature enough to admit hes fucktardness, my answer to you, Lava, is a big NO.
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Wasn't Spikers aka {S} put down for this:P.
I heard nothing (sum1 telling me personally so i dont think my clanned was infromed).
Sorry for confusion or our mistake.
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What are you talking about ? This is just a 4 teams exhibition tournament. The real tournament will come later.
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Lava_Croft> you cannot combat a certain strategy
Lava_Croft> so you just eliminate the possibility to apply that strategy
CY`TV> exactly Lava_Croft
Only for real Pro's!
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<CY`TV> Lava_Croft: what if the humans just NEVER come out, you just wait 'til TL ?
<Lava_Croft> CY`TV, yes
Only for people who'd like to play Tremulous.
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You mean people who like to play Tremulous without all the freedom that real Tremulous gameplay gives you.
People who want to stop you from using the oldest FPS strategy in the book.
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Those are the only people I want playing the tournament.
If camping is the real trem strategy for some of you out here, then fine, I'll split the gameplay in two !
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Those are the people you call Pro's ?
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It's not that I don't understand, Plague Bringer, I can see how camping can make you win a game. I just think it shouldn't. Ever.
Might I suggest WAP (http://padworld.myexp.de/). No camping there. In actual tremulous it can be a legitimate strategy, your protestations notwithstanding. Perhaps if you focused more on Tremulous strategy and less on twitch play you would not find it so boring?
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I never personally had a problem with camping. It was just a tactic I would make my challenge to overcome. I must admit, though, that without camping the game is certainly alot more energetic.Sometimes restrictions can encourage creativity- When people know they can't rely on camping, they start making clever group tactics and shifting area control.
So far, these Promod games have been either exactly the same as the usual games except I'm seeing alot more teamplay. Players rely on each other rather than turrets. This mod might not be well recieved by those have have become so heavily dependant on camping, but to those who don't mind adapting or who never camped in the first place, this mod makes a welcome change to the gameplay.
As for the name- 'Promod' -It's just a name. I don't see much reason to be offended by it. The title of most things only serves to encourage and intrigue people into using it.
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There's a lot of reason for people to be offended by a lot of things surrounding "pro" mod.
Camping as a "girly" way of playing.
"Pro" mod, when lots of leet players use camping as a legit tactic when the need arises.
Some more things.
Oh, and how do you expect you're going to get to the control point with a Tyrant outside your base FORCING you to camp?
The main arguments recently have been about camping, but some people just can't understand that sometimes people have to make the decision to either feed or camp. I choose to camp.
Risujin's Domination mod may serve as an alternative for "pro"mod. It encourages teamwork, but doesn't condemn the weaker team to an immediate loss if they can't break through the aline offense.
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The exhibition tournament is running. If you're near our time-zone you can come spec it. If you're not you can see the demos that are made. The point of the exhibition is to give you some basis to your comments. If you see something you don't like you can point it out. If you don't actually see the affect of this mod it's easy to misjudge it.
They have s3 and you've been pushed back into your base? sounds like the aliens have done well. Now they're s3 all the control point will do is give them evos- but they're already tyrants so at best this'll just fuel another attack. They'll surround your base and most likely rush it like they would in your standard game.
If you had been the ones who got the kills and/or controlled the control point then you might have been the ones blocking their exits and getting stages/credits while they suffer.
The neat thing about the control point is how it acts as a hotspot for activity. Where many standard games degenerate into a solid state of affairs, the control point breaks the deadlock and keeps people moving. If you take the control point from them they'll either set off to get it back or forget about it and give you the advantage. In this way it can really add more depth to games.
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The main point is that while this mod might be very amusing to play, and adds a different layer of gameplay to Tremulous, one should not advertise it as a 'promod', since this implies it is a mod for 'pro' players, while it in essence is the opposite.
Maybe change the name of the mod to something that better covers what it actually is? Right now 'promod' is just as dumb a name as the infamous 'balance' mod has.
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If the name turns out to be the worst thing about this mod then surely that's an accomplishment. Maybe Anti-Camp Mod might have been more appropriate but surely it's the mod itself that matters.
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A name creates expectations one might not want to create. Advertising it as a 'fixed' Tremulous is neither.
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This mod was created because we didn't want to launch a tournament where the competition would motivate people to camp, because sometimes the strategy works.
This is why the gameplay had to remain the same if none of the teams were extreme campers. So it's almost exactly like normal trem except you can't camp and seriously expect to win (well, you can still camp for ~6 minutes, the strategy isn't completely nerffed).
It turns out the mod works pretty well in FFA also, but it was first intended to be only used in clan wars, in a tournament... actually not even a tournament, a league. It's not that it's for l33ts, but you need individual skills and teamplay to go through with this mod, camping is of all the least skilled, so-called, "strategy". That's why it's called promod.
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Why are you the only one who blame camping in CW ?
I have really few problem with it. Sometimes, game is very dynamic, sometime, more slow, but extrem camp in match ? really uncommon.
Why try to change gameplay (even a little one) to a situation never see ?
You said it is no effect on gameplay, what are you doing with Puzzola's videos ?
I said you are too weak to attacks bases, so because a weakened human's band unarmored waiting for your attack in there base, you say they camp, only because they don't feed you.
Try to work your base attack (FFA is great to learn to attack bases, but FFA is not enough "pro" for you, isn't it ?) instead of dream up stupid patchs to justify your weakness.
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i like personal attacks when we are setting up and showing a new thing who look like well accepted by the majority of people who are using it at the moment.
I like to see a clan who as been inactive in clanwar for some month telling to a clan who has done more than 150 rounds of cw-training-matches with more less all Europeans clans the last 2 month and winning more than 120 of them : "you are too weak to attacks bases" ... Are you realizing what are you saying ? Who are you to say that ?
Please thc, now it's enough, If you just want to attack the cy clan, do it in our clan topic where you did well started.
And about "puzzola's video" i have already answered, but you never read or just read what you like.
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I like to see a clan who as been inactive in clanwar for some month telling to a clan who has done more than 150 rounds of cw-training-matches with more less all Europeans clans the last 2 month and winning more than 120 of them : "you are too weak to attacks bases" ... Are you realizing what are you saying ? Who are you to say that ?
oh, seems to be a trouble spot. You don't like someone said you have weakness ?
Sorry, you are the ultimate tremulous gods, strong everywhere :p
I like when my opposant say me what I must improve in my skill (on, probably in your side, my "non-skill" :p). But, sure, if you're perfect, you are nothing to improve, sorry !
And about "puzzola's video" i have already answered, but you never read or just read what you like.
Yes, of course, you reply. You turn around the problem. You can't give a real justification to explain why you want change tremulous gameplay, so I try to understand the real reason. Realy sorry if you take that like a personnal attack.
Now, tell me, how many CW, on 120 played, have a camping problem ? And, to focus WHAT is your definition of the camping ? Ok, I havn't done 120 CW (I have a social life too), but enough to say the camping is not a real problem in CW. Except if, for you, to not feed is to camp.
Why you don't stop to play against campers teams, rather than break the gameplay and the team balance ?
for me, /quit will be always the best choice against unfair teams. Maybe your thirst of victory is too strong to do that ? :p
who look like well accepted by the majority of people who are using it at the moment.
In other side... I will not use it if I don't accept it :p Another fake argument. Another again ?
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I've drafted a quick FAQ, I think it comes back on most comments and critics.
http://lawl.be/ETL/FAQ.html
tHc people, I won't answer anything related to camping the control points, feeding because of the control points or how campers are uncommon among tremulous clans. It's impossible to camp these points, and it shouldn't even be considered camping to stay next to them, there is no such thing as "feed" during a clan war, finally, this mod will be used for tournaments where you canno't choose your opponents.
I've replied to everything you said about a hundread times, all you do is repeat the same thing and claim in a sarcastic manner that CY are pretentious (which ain't true, we're all gods).
oh, seems to be a trouble spot. You don't like someone said you have weakness ?
How many times have you destroyed a human base while the whole team was camping in it, waiting for you to waste your evos ? (during a clan war, not FFA, this goes without saying)
If the answer is never I suggest you shut up. Nobody here agrees that you should rush a camped human base. (except well, if you're S3 and they're ruined)
But, sure, if you're perfect, you are nothing to improve, sorry !
Well so are you man, you can down a human base with a single dretch as it seems.
Yes, of course, you reply. You turn around the problem. You can't give a real justification to explain why you want change tremulous gameplay, so I try to understand the real reason. Realy sorry if you take that like a personnal attack.
Mark my words : the hell with campers. There's my reason. What's so hard to understand ?
The rest is about feed and not playing against campers. Read the FAQ.
who look like well accepted by the majority of people who are using it at the moment.
In other side... I will not use it if I don't accept it :p Another fake argument. Another again ?
Well, some people, unlike you, tried the mod and some of them realised their speculations were wrong. You sir, don't give a shit and are just flaming my topic.
Please don't talk about fake argumentation... your whole post is a joke.
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Yes, of course, you reply. You turn around the problem. You can't give a real justification to explain why you want change tremulous gameplay, so I try to understand the real reason. Realy sorry if you take that like a personnal attack.
If you cant understand all what was said here by many people, it's not my problem, i know why we made it, we explained it, other people than us who have tested explain what are the effects good and bad.
I ll give you some exampleabout camping in cw that you good know :
bug vs wwf : first kill at 12 min, the two team was scared by each other and was waiting for the opponents
cy vs tulips first match : cy human s1 had to attack tulips goons in their own base because they was scared.
cy vs wwf : i had my first goon by time, 6 min without see a human and i was waiting on the human base door on karith, human dident get out their base before s2.
cy vs hsr (first match) : 8 kills down by cy aliens, human are waiting for maras attack in their own base. All the action of the game was made near the human base because they dident wanna get out and fight (no goons, just maras). Cy was sleeping near the human base with a mara and only one evo in reserve ... Not really enought to break a bunker fully of campers.
And many more example like that where game was static and boring, what should we do ? Running in the turret & acide tube with plucks in the ass to make them smile ?
we didn't want to make a league where people can paralyze the game like they want because they are scared or nubs. You admitted it and you told me about making the tournament with human judges who will decide who is camping and who is not during the game ... Pure shit, everybody will contest your decision and you judgment if you say they are camper. Here with the plugin you have a little modification of the gameplay, like a "way of fairness" to accept if you wanna play. So, no judgment, the plug in is a soft, it cant lie or be influenced.
All the clans which who we had good and fair games are agree or more less agree with the plug in, it's the most important for us, we don't care about you if is that all you wanna read. you talk "don't play with campers" ? the plug in make that, campers will not like this and will not enter the tournament by them self.
The point is not --i wanna you to remove that or you made that because "you cant attack an alien base"-- The point is here we have a way to make a good tournament for all the people who like that kind of game. If you like, you enter and play, if you don't like, ... just pass your way, we will not change this for you, because you pass your time to criticize and flame all what is done by cy team.
Now you said your point of view, we know it, we said our, read it and the discussion with you is closed, i have nothing more to said, i don't tell you "you re wrong", i just say "i like what we are doing", and you are not the kind of people who will make change my/our opinions.
I know all what you think about this, anymore reply from you is now useless.
I m tired of this,i will not answer you anymore.
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because you pass your time to criticize and flame all what is done by cy team
False. clans.tremulous.net is useful (I hope only you don't put individual stats), you're idea to make an "unlagged 20" was nice, we used this config for 2 months on our server Intoxication.
I criticize when CY watch all community from ahead and say "you don't think like we do, you're noob".
We contest your promod, and all you do is "if you don't like, go away and shut up". It's not very construtive.
Else to put the head in the floor and say "I know i'm right", we could try to speak and oppose arguments, like we usually do with other community members.
So, make your tournament, and admit I criticize and say why I think it's a bad idea. If you can't accept someone contest your point of view, run away the community, and run away all social relation.
One more time, you say me "shut up, all what you say is useless, I don't hear anything". But other people read, and can, throw a debate, make them self point of view. It's not with saying "I'm right" you can persuade someone.
I NEVER asked you to stop your tournament. I just explain why I don't want participate, I why I think this mod is fully useless, and harmful, and why recommand to other teams to don't participate to this tournament.
Thank to your open-mindedness, you take for you all we could say to criticize your ideas.
By the way.... remain the VIP patch ;)
Head in the floor: "It will work, you'll see, it will work. If you don't like, shut up and leave the serveur." => VIP patch has killed Amphetamines.
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Thank you for your time. GOODBYE.
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Are you leaving? :cry:
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I hate it when people get angry in discussions =/ It's easy to get frustrated but debates go alot better when you can keep a cool temper and a level head.
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Thank you for your time. GOODBYE.
I'm sorry to see you give me right. Goodbye
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Few last points I'd like to make:
tv obviously broke down, looks like he couldnt "crack our base" (find enough weaknesses in our arguments).
There is such a thing as feeding in a clan war, just like there's feeding in public games. Anyone who says otherwise is in serious need of learning this game.
How can you say that staying near one spot waiting for your enemies is not camping? Who the fuck cares if you have structures around you or not? Camping is camping, you might as well put the control point outside human base on ATCS just to make people believe that you can't camp if there's no structures around you, you're just defending a point.
In Tremulous, Aliens assault, Humans defend. If the Humans can crack the Alien offense or sneak an operative into the Alien base, they win, if they can't, they loose. Get used to the gameplay, and don't try to change it to your liking.
Oh, and this "real Tremulous tournament" you were after will never happen. Tournaments are played without extreme modifications to teh game, just plain Tremulous.
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I am not sure I am understanding most of what you guys are saying. As i understand the description given by tv and [A] about their Mod, it looks like its a Mod as in the word modification.
Mods, same as balance mod or TremX mod, is an alteration or modification to the standard game (I kinda feel stupid of having to say something simplistic as that).
Any comment to tremulous related to a mod is superfluous. This Mod introduces a different gameplay which is tied to the server that hosts tremulous with that mod. And it seems that CY and some other clans like that gameplay better. That's the reason why they created the mod and play with that mod.
So why not to have a tournament based on that mod?
Tournaments are played without extreme modifications to teh game, just plain Tremulous.
That's saying "you may not start a tournament based on TremX or Balance Mods". And I ask, why not?
The design of Q3 engine and Tremulous is that it does encourage for mods. One of the benefits of it being an open source game.
So what's left is the dislike of the name of the mod or its description.
a rose is a rose is a rose whatever her name.
Will the mod be successful, is it flawless.
For sure it's not flawless, otherwise they wouldn't ask for input. Will it be a success? That can only be determined by time and not by opinions about what kind of gameplay you personally favor.
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The name of the mod is offensive to good players who camp when they are forced to because it's basically saying "you're a ubern00b if you camp, like, ever. That's what tv and [A] are saying, also.
A real Tremulous tournament is played without mods to the game, just normal Tremulous. Now, you can have a modded tournament, I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying that this tournament will not be.. well, official, in the sense that the gameplay is changed from what Tremulous was intended to be.
In the demos I watched, the aliens all camped the control point. And I do mean CAMPED, tv. YES, you CAN camp in a clan war.
Oh, and this socalled "pro"mod was made with many flaws, one of which being that Humans are heavily base dependant (tv, you don't seem to understand that), therefore, it's impossible to hold a control point for six minutes with an alien offense. They need to reaload and heal. With the no build zone, they must trek all the way back to their base, leaving the control point unguarded (uncamped) or severly weakened in the defensive force.
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The name of the mod is offensive to good players who camp when they are forced to because it's basically saying "you're a ubern00b if you camp, like, ever. That's what tv and [A] are saying, also.
So you only object to their statements and the naming of their mod? because
Now, you can have a modded tournament, I'm not saying you can't.
Good that we have that cleared and that they have your blessing for creating that tournament based on a mod.
The time has finally come, for a real Tremulous tournament.
I have seen a lot of attempts to such a thing, every two weeks a newbie tries to organize his own for the french community.
The interpretation of real in this context can only mean 'a working tremulous tournament' or 'real existing tournament', not real as in opposed to fake.
tournament will not be.. well, official,
You mean not official like the other official tournaments?
Btw, where did you pick up the word official? In the announcement of their tournament?
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I'm not giving my blessing to them for creating a modded tournament. I know it takes work to develop a working mod, and I respect them for jumping into it and making a tournament, but I do not wish them luck.
I believe that their mod is underdeveloped, it gets rid of one camping problem, but another arises. Due to tv's cockyness and "full-of-himself-ness", he doesn't realise that all he's done is move where the aliens camp. Mind you, it's effective, but if the aliens get S3, no matter what the human's stage, they can still pin them in their base and the endgame will still be a campfest outside the human base untill SD.
I just got a Sudden Death alternative idea. It will allow humans to leave their base and attack at SD without the thought of it being completely destroyed.
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This very old match you are talking wwF vs BUG was really a nightmare yes. They waited 6 min to get 3 points, after changing in goon that was difficult for us to attack them. When they were in dretch, they feared us ( Map : Niveus ) And we feared them when they were all goon, it's not really funny right, but as we are not ' pro', we support the fun and the profit of the experiment.
Finally your level, and your modesty being largely higher than the others, it's difficult for us to be leet/pro : (
wwF vs CY is also an old match, but in a context very different from that quoted above. You had blocked our two exits by camping them, and while waiting for that we attack them. What we did gently, without advancing too much yes, but did we it.
None of us included spectators seen camp here..
To finish, as I am only one French at the very average level, which doesn't do anything others that to camp, my judgement doesn't have really importance.
Please god, let us be pro.
@Like the intelligence of the French community, my English level is very low.
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That's saying "you may not start a tournament based on TremX or Balance Mods". And I ask, why not?
You can have a tournament based on tremX, just you can't call it a tremulous tournament. It would be a tremX tournament.
What pisses me off with this is that they advertise it as a tremulous tournament, despite the fact that it isnt.
Also, the name sucks balls. Its arrogant and condescending.
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Maps : Niveus & Tremor
Scores : (CY) 4 | [F]lame 0
The hardest and the most agressiv match i had ever play :o
Demos from both teams incoming :]
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That's saying "you may not start a tournament based on TremX or Balance Mods". And I ask, why not?
You can have a tournament based on tremX, just you can't call it a tremulous tournament. It would be a tremX tournament.
In your logic they would call it a pro tournament :D Imagine what an stir up this would cause :D
But all in all it is really then just the name thats disturbing.
From watching some games with this mode I don't detect much difference actually in over all play style by those teams that constantly rush anyways. As I have never seen the involved teams play without the mod though, its hard to tell what difference it really makes.
The games I saw were very fast paced, much faster over longer stretches of time than i usually have seen CWs or scrims played, though I am sure there are some other teams that can keep up.
But the control point does not seem to be that vital of an element than what i assumed it to be from reading the description. It plays its major role in S1 and becomes quite obsolete in S3. What I feel where it does make a difference is for those moments where a team tries to dry out the opposing team. That tactic becomes obsolete, as well as waiting for SD. But this unfortunately only until S3 if I have understood it correctly.
As for the long run. Eye is an awesome player and probably does make a big different. The other players do not seem to be as spectacular. But due to playing these kind of high paced games often, they achieved a very high level of fast play tactical understanding and I think that is what all is about.
I have also seen the team OPP play, and was equally amazed by their teamplay. But there I have seen this only happen in small bursts over longer periods of time. Same counts for some of the other very good north american teams (I have heard some good stuff about Zub for example, and I am sure there are more). I would be highly curious to see them match e.g. CY or [F]lame in an equal setting, their skill is highly sufficient for it to be a blast of a match. Its a big pitty that ping will not make this possible.
Don't get me wrong, from the north american scrims i watched i really saw some pearls of matches played when the best 4 or 5 north american teams are involved. The catenaccio style applied to human team strategies can be highly interesting to watch too from a tactical view point and requires strict team coordination.
Actually, anything that requires strict team coordination for me is a high level game. Both camping and feeding do not require this :D
And my opinion is that you don't actually need the mod for good games, but it can help to make a big change into those games that usually have a freeze-up in a static game where aliens camp around human base and humans rest in their base.
One last point I like to throw in, is that most of the european players are not native english speakers. So you may detect some semantics in their wordings that were not intended completely like that and may sound a bit different when said in their native language.
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[F]lame Vs =V= [Niveus] (http://uploaded.de/?id=3jyop1)
[F]lame Vs =V= [Tremor] (http://uploaded.de/?id=s6ngbn)
[F]lame Vs (CY) [Tremor] (http://uploaded.de/?id=zf3hnq)
[F]lame Vs (CY) [Niveus] (http://uploaded.de/?id=g88kg6)
Watch out for that floating repeater (control point).
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My personal feeling in the "cy vs flame etl match" :
Humans rules the game, it's obvious,
[F]lame are known as amazing dretches and monster goons, they got raped by cy humans.
CY is known to have the best alien gameplay with adv mara in eu, we are unbeatable with our mara for 3 month .... On tremor, humans [F]lame s1 Have broken our entire base when we was all adv-mara and we could do nothing !!!! They had no helmet, they was unstoppable, i have never seen that ... we was very close to lose ... very good action from flame
On niveus the same, the games was rules by humans from both team ... Aliens has just to undergo what humans decide to. Again we was very close to lose our alien round.
Very good game to [F]lame.
In my opinion and from the game i plaid, the rush is pro human, not pro alien, but it's only my opinion and i will not force someone to admit it.
my demos will follow soon.
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I agree, humans did alot better than aliens generally. Your mara swarms did most of the work in turning that tables when we were human. I have to hand it to you, your teamwork is very impressive.
Please don't leave Eye =) the games more challenging with you around.
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The mod's name is perfect, because it all got your attention. Haha.
Anyway, 4 amazing rounds against [F]lames tonight. Shitting myself as a granger against S1 humans was a first for me. You guys who think you've figured out all of Tremulous and how aliens are so superior to humans it's only natural that they camp : watch the demos.
None of us included spectators seen camp here..
01:04 < janev> Raytray i was there speccing that match
01:04 < Raytray> janev, was it that bad?
01:04 < janev> yes wwf camped like mofoes
01:05 < Raytray> rofl.
01:05 < janev> Yeah worst campathon i have ever seen:)
That was janev talking about are (very) old war on karith yesterday. Can you believe it ? That was memorable, top-notch, camp MayheM. GG.
In the demos I watched, the aliens all camped the control point. And I do mean CAMPED, tv. YES, you CAN camp in a clan war.
Errrr... yeah I know you can camp in a clan war. That's why I made the mod, remember ?
Aliens aren't really camping the point in these demos. First, this is the usual spot Aliens stay at when playing on regular trem, and it seems obvious the aliens have to wait a bit, since they have so much more mobility... Luckily humans can take a shot at them from far away.
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No one team used promod on these videos, just one time i think (i'm really not sure), CY (vs flame) on Niveus at S3, but not a strategy, they just took time to attack what made them to controle the repeater 6 min, which gave them an advantage they didn't need.
Yeah for these game, promod was useless because not used. I want to see a team who really play with promod, not who say something like: Hey, I'm going to the repeater to see what he look like.
But nice games :) Maybe [F]lame need more teamplay and less Rambo's individuals attacks against as skilled teams than themselves. They'll must learn to "camp" (tv's definition) xD
And....
OMG !!!! Nux cheat !!!! :P
(http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/Screens/Service%20d%e9lationnel/Nova%20Hermes.jpg)
Spectators, don't forget to shut yo... To throw your keyboard :)
(It's trite and stupid to say that: my english suxx :oops: But i think i speak better english than some french speak french on some forums :P)
(Edit: screen)
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The control point doesn't have to give out stages/points to have an affect on gameplay. When the humans decide to make an attack because they don't want the aliens to hold the control point for too long, then it has had an affect. The 6 minute bonus ideally would never be given to anyone.
Nux, one evo and it is finish for the CY!
I remember him saying that ^^ To clarify, he wasn't telling me anything I didn't know already. He noticed I had 2 evos and was anticipating my usual goon attack (usually in FFA people just don't know how to dodge so I have a picnic (http://uploaded.de/?id=lx7lw4) in their base head-chomping them one by one). I did get the third evo after killing eye on the om but he had already sawn it and the game was soon to end.
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Teams starts to exploit promod, what a no-camping and no-feed game :P
Lead vs =V= .AVI (28Mo) (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20lead%20vs%20V.AVI)
Leav vs =V= .dm_69 (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20Lead%20vs%20V.dm_69)
Heroic act, or why promod sux :) (3 Mo) (http://www.thcteam.org/~puzzola/Trem/demos/Gromod%20Heroic%20act.AVI)
The same on google video (bad quality) (http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=4785484026765266889)
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Heroic act, or why promod sux (3 Mo)
It's a normal spot that we would use anyway. It would be plain stupid to rush their base. And =V='s rush was a normal thing. If they would camp (without mod) the same would happen but instead of rifles they would have shotguns. Pity that you show only "negative" aspects of our games. If you don't enjoy it why do you bother specing it? Has anyone of us done something to you and now you seek personal vengeance. And try to Flame everything we do? Coz' that's how it looks like now.
Now back to the topic.
I think everyone spectating the match had so much entertainment as we did playing the game (with one exception above). Too bad that Italian ISP is a fucktard(=V= high ping). Both maps were action packed and there were almost none boring moments. GG
P.S.: C'mon people more positive feedback please. I know that all the spectators enjoyed the game. Let's show those anti-league ppl that they are alone. ;)
Mine POV demos:
http://lawl.be/dir/Demos/Clan%20Wars/ETL/ETL_V_LEAD_Jaywor_Gloom_Aliens.dm_69
http://lawl.be/dir/Demos/Clan%20Wars/ETL/ETL_V_LEAD_Jaywor_Gloom_Human.dm_69
http://lawl.be/dir/Demos/Clan%20Wars/ETL/ETL_V_LEAD_Jaywor_UTCSb2_Human.dm_69
I've forgot to record when we were plaing aliens on UTCSb.
Sboub's spectator demos:
http://lawl.be/dir/Demos/Clan%20Wars/ETL/ETL_V_LEAD_Sboub_Gloom_Spec1.dm_69
http://lawl.be/dir/Demos/Clan%20Wars/ETL/ETL_V_LEAD_Sboub_Gloom_Spec2.dm_69
http://lawl.be/dir/Demos/Clan%20Wars/ETL/ETL_V_LEAD_Sboub_Utcs_Spec1.dm_69
http://lawl.be/dir/Demos/Clan%20Wars/ETL/ETL_V_LEAD_Sboub_Utcs_Spec2.dm_69
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As i seen on gloom, except their horrible ping, =V= made 2 errors and they paid the prize :
- Staying in base in 1rst game minute : Gloom is a linear map, human could arrive in same time in middle map as alien and have a huge advantage from the size of the room and because alien have 1 doors to cross, 1 door that human could block easily versus dretchs. So lead dretches has taken control of the midle map.
- Only one spawn : You had to wait too many time for respawning everyone of you.
By the way, the alien teamplay from lead was very goods, as i think, nobody toke a stage from the control point, all stage was done by fragging, so gg to both team !
Now, one word on =V= team :
=V= is a very good team, and they are all except cowards, they accepted to play in an exhibition tournament where they knew the 3 others teams should be more skilled than them and that all the matches should be played on a server where they should have bad pings. Instead of whining against the promod patch and supporting camping strategy because they have a huge disadvantage with their opponents, they tried, tried and will try again because they wanna do it. They are not afraid by losing if the game could bring them something new, something good. It's that kind of team who will finish by mastering their own teamplay and will rules teams more skilled.
In one sentence, i m very glad and proud to play the tournament (and by the same way my last games on tremulous) with =V= team !
.Eye
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Well... seems that, as =V= leader, i have to say something about the last posts.
Firstly, i have to thank Jaywor, Eye and all the (CY) for their support.
They all understood the spirit with which we accept the challenge of an European Tournament surelly difficult for us: i think, and my mates think it too, that all the occasions are good to improve ourselves. Even with the worst ping of all the european countries and against some of the best european clans.
Every time something had gone wrong, we tried to understand why, never complaining about "external problems", just trying to understand where WE have made mistakes. Losing had never been a problem for us, if that can be a way to bring us to a better level.
I'm glad we have found clans, and perhaps friends, that understood our difficulties.
Personally, i can tell that i'm satisfied by this tournament: the games are pretty amusing, and surely we have learnt a lot by challenging very skilled clans :wink:
Finally, i have to thank specially tv and Eye for their work and for the words they had said for us. I'm honored of all that.
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I don't flame teams (except maybe CY ;)), and this tournament give me the opportunity to watch really nice games, it's a good animation, for the participants as for the spectators.
The =V= are absolutely not cowards to do a suicide rush on repeater just to touch it and maybe kill some goons. I just criticize a mod who change Tremulous in a counter strike -like with only rounds of fight and a final rush at the end, which force humans to be more suicidal that they must, aliens less agressive and more powerfull (etc).
A mod which give you an advantage to build an outpost, you build an outpost or play a normal game. A mod which give you an advantage to camp or protect an area, you camp or protect this area, or play a normal game. It's easier to control a repeater which isn't in a base cuz aliens are totally independants of their base. It's a fact no ?
The "heroic act" video don't show a normal rush human, it show humans running through alien's line to touch a repeater which is going to give a stage to aliens, the summum of the feed, an obligatory feed to be less in the shit.
I criticize those who don't accept that the area of fights depends of the team (alien/humain) which is dominating at this moment (near human's base when aliens are dominating, near middle of the map to alien's base when humans are dominating), which is nothing to see with camping, and depends of the strategy and choice of players, not a definite static zone by promod's creators which limit the possibilites and make aberrations.
(I can post a video of a situation which oblige to what somebody call "camp", but which is staying near (not in) the base and trying to give less kills, i don't call it "camping strategy". Moreover there did not need the promod to make it possible the aliens to gain the part, nor of S3, just to take risks whereas they dominate)
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To those who see holding the control point as camping:
The mod is discouraging the use of base defences to gain kills (having them protect the humans/aliens while they pick off attackers). You cannot build around the control point so it is left to the control point holders to defend themselves. This isn't to see that staying at the control point is a good idea- though it does attract opposition it's not entirely wise to stay in one spot for too long.
On the other hand, building mini-bases near (but not too near) the control point isn't prevented and (CY) use this tactic quite alot. If they lose alot of hp they can run back to the base defences they have placed nearby. Though they don't stay near the defences most of the time, this is most likely because they've no need to stay put and would rather move forward and get kills.
If enough people don't like this mod it won't be a success. If people decide it helps then it might be well accepted. In the end it's only a mod and won't disturb you while you're playing the standard game.
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I don't flame teams (except maybe CY ;)), and this tournament give me the opportunity to watch really nice games, it's a good animation, for the participants as for the spectators.
The =V= are absolutely not cowards to do a suicide rush on repeater just to touch it and maybe kill some goons. I just criticize a mod who change Tremulous in a counter strike -like with only rounds of fight and a final rush at the end, which force humans to be more suicidal that they must, aliens less agressive and more powerfull (etc).
A mod which give you an advantage to build an outpost, you build an outpost or play a normal game. A mod which give you an advantage to camp or protect an area, you camp or protect this area, or play a normal game. It's easier to control a repeater which isn't in a base cuz aliens are totally independants of their base. It's a fact no ?
The "heroic act" video don't show a normal rush human, it show humans running through alien's line to touch a repeater which is going to give a stage to aliens, the summum of the feed, an obligatory feed to be less in the shit.
I criticize those who don't accept that the area of fights depends of the team (alien/humain) which is dominating at this moment (near human's base when aliens are dominating, near middle of the map to alien's base when humans are dominating), which is nothing to see with camping, and depends of the strategy and choice of players, not a definite static zone by promod's creators which limit the possibilites and make aberrations.
(I can post a video of a situation which oblige to what somebody call "camp", but which is staying near (not in) the base and trying to give less kills, i don't call it "camping strategy". Moreover there did not need the promod to make it possible the aliens to gain the part, nor of S3, just to take risks whereas they dominate)
Nothing new as you already said, you like to repeat yourself (for good and bad aspects you are describing). :-)
The only think i will remember from my own experience, with the promod, i plaid the best games in all my trem time (ffa and matches). read again my sentense, i said with the promod not because the promod. but between the two form, there is only one step ...
People will decide if they wanna play with it, for me the most important point is that we arrive to make a (fake) tournament which works. And i hope the teams will use it to make growing up the clan scene in Europe ... With or without promod or both or whatever, i dont really care, but play people, competition with good spirit and fairness is the most in a game imo :-)
5 matches remaining :
cy v lead second part
flame v lead
cy v =V=
Big final (prediction : cy v flame)
little final (prediction : lead v =V=)
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i not see server
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The updated list of demos including todays matches against lead|
[F]lame Vs =V= [Niveus] (http://uploaded.de/?id=3jyop1)
[F]lame Vs =V= [Tremor] (http://uploaded.de/?id=s6ngbn)
[F]lame Vs (CY) [Tremor] (http://uploaded.de/?id=zf3hnq)
[F]lame Vs (CY) [Niveus] (http://uploaded.de/?id=g88kg6)
[F]lame Vs lead| [Tremor] (http://uploaded.de/?id=jxhqut)
[F]lame Vs lead| [Niveus] (http://uploaded.de/?id=vph5uu)