Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nux on July 09, 2007, 07:05:33 pm
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Posts so far:
I would play on unlagged servers if I were you. Most people who dislike unlagged dislike it because they do not want to adjust. Leading involves luck - it's not pure skill like some would claim. Aiming directly is skill. Some argue that unlagged takes away the ability to dodge - to them I say, you just suck in unlagged.
Unlagged is trying to make the game more fair by making everyone just as laggy as each other. That's all it can physically do. The people who get lag have lag because they live on the other side of the earth. There's no getting round the fact that information can't travel that fast.
So everyone now lags. What I mean by this is everyone has unexpected things happen to them. Say for example a goon chomping me from the other side of the room. I'm paying for that goons lag. Why should I? Why can't he play on servers he has good ping with?
Also, leading your fire (e.g. shooting away from the mara to kill it >.<) trains the mind to aim frantically. This doesn't help people develop aiming skills so much as it trains them to wildly fire in their direction until unlagged tells them they hit. Before you say "but there is a very specific gap you need to fire into to make the shots reach the mara" there's very little accounting for what that mara does and where unlagged says it went in that duration.
Unlagged is trying to make the game more fair by making everyone just as laggy as each other.
Wrong. There are a few systems for other games that do that, but that's not what happens here. Unlagged works the other way around, by removing the lag: it silently rolls back everything to the point at which a hitscan attack goes off, then puts it all back. In effect, it makes everyone shoot/slash like they are on a LAN with the server, even if they don't move like that.
You just have to shoot where they appear and ignore where you think they really are.
What I mean by this is everyone has unexpected things happen to them. Say for example a goon chomping me from the other side of the room. I'm paying for that goons lag. Why should I? Why can't he play on servers he has good ping with?
To clarify, when there is a discrepancy between what I see and what is actually the case I think there's cause for concern. When that discrepancy is due to another persons high ping but I pay for it, that's cause for frustration. You can't remove lag. You can try and actively put things right as unlagged does, but all that does is gives more false information.
It's not what good it does for high pingers that I'm worried about. It's what bad it does to low pingers. Experienced players can tell the difference as they are used to picking up on minute changes. So when a sure-fire hit somehow misses and a sure-fire miss somehow hits, players get angry.
It's not perfect, but there is something that limits that (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2948) to some degree.
Also, while that goon is lagging, you're shooting at a stationary object. You probably have a better chance of killing the goon than it does of killing you.
Also, while that goon is lagging, you're shooting at a stationary object. You probably have a better chance of killing the goon than it does of killing you.
That would be right if a split-second later it didn't appear right in front of me and chomp my head off. That's how it happened on his computer so unlagged says it happened on mine too.
Also, while that goon is lagging, you're shooting at a stationary object. You probably have a better chance of killing the goon than it does of killing you.
That would be right if a split-second later it didn't appear right in front of me and chomp my head off. That's how it happened on his computer so unlagged says it happened on mine too.
Just don't play with warpers, then. The same thing happens in lagged, if someone has high, unstable ping - he warps.
I'm glad you said that.
I was just playing a game on metalheads server (g_unlagged 1). The leading players was called 'player'. He had a good ping. I had a good ping. He warped like hell. He warped more than the high pingers.
So it's not just a case of not playing with high pingers (though if you don't play with high pingers there's no point in unlagged anyway). I made a demo of it but demos don't record any of the warping =( they record what the server saw so everything looks smooth.
Well, in my experience, most warpers have high pings. Someone with a low ping could still warp, as I do when my fps crashes. Every night at 11 PM my fps starts spiking from 90 to 30 every other second, causing me to warp, even though I have sub 50 ping (right now I'm only able to fix this by restarting). An unstable ping/fps is the main cause of warping. High ping is just the usual complement.
There is a point to unlagged when playing with low pingers (no leading at all?). :)
If your FPS is getting worse over time, that sounds like a memory leak. Not sure why it would do that though.
This isn't an FPS problem. Though he has a low ping, the server is 'correcting' his position in my view to account for other peoples views. My FPS is unaffected.
Not sure what you mean when you say:
There is a point to unlagged when playing with low pingers (no leading at all?).
If you mean unlagged means you don't have to lead: You don't have to lead with low ping games without unlagged.
If you mean you get to lead with unlagged: Why should I lead with a hitscan weapon?
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the original unlagged had an antiwarp patch. if packets went missing from a player, the server would extrapolate for a short period of time to smooth out minor warping, then refuse to allow the client to move until the connection got better again. tjw has been working on his antiwarp patch (taken from etpub, but it's slightly buggy because he's missing a syscall that et has but trem doesn't), but he's been missing for a while. i still have the antiwarp patch on my hard drive, and i will be separating it sometime soon. unlagged actually makes warping players much better for others, since it completely removes the guesswork on where to aim.
edit: you could have asked me to split that thread so we don't have to fight to quote the right thing.
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the original unlagged had an antiwarp patch. if packets went missing from a player, the server would extrapolate for a short period of time to smooth out minor warping, then refuse to allow the client to move until the connection got better again. tjw has been working on his antiwarp patch (taken from etpub, but it's slightly buggy because he's missing a syscall that et has but trem doesn't), but he's been missing for a while. i still have the antiwarp patch on my hard drive, and i will be separating it sometime soon. unlagged actually makes warping players much better for others, since it completely removes the guesswork on where to aim.
Wouldn't this extrapolation mean that when you have a less than optimal but still stockplayable ping, like around 100-130, he hits you when you changed direction but the server wrongly predicts your movement and counts it as a hit while you are pretty certain you dodged? I think this is where most players have a problem with unlagged.
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lagged -> :(
unlagged -> :cry:
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nah, unlagged - the overpowering goes on
i dont mean that whole idea is fucked, but its doesnt give good results
wait, wait, 1.2.0 comez with g_aimbot built in! then unlagged isnt that bad..
CON
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To me it started as a good idea but ended as a very annoying way to play. I'll admit I play on it sense most servers use it but to me it makes far to easy to use a Massdriver and Lasgun. Not to mention your screwed as a Mara most of the time :*(
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you could have asked me to split that thread so we don't have to fight to quote the right thing.
Sorry. I wasn't sure whether admins had that power. I should have known they're all-powerful. Please don't smite me. =(
My experience with unlagged hasn't been as good as with some of you. I opt for low-ping servers- you can't go wrong there. =) If everyone opted for low-ping servers then there wouldn't be a need for unlagged. Surely sticking to local servers isn't that hard... is it?
If you want I can make up funny metaphors for this. =D
All I'm saying is when I have the 8-ball against the corner pocket and I'm lining up the shot, I notice the guy I'm playing with is drunk and is spilling beer all over the place. He falls on the table and it shatters with balls flying everywhere. The referee decides I should have seen it coming and calls it a draw.
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It would be fine except it basically makes everything below goon little more then a distraction or cannon fodder.
Dretches are nothing but free creds to any human player with a bit of skill, largely killing the alien s1 advantage.
Mara's are pretty much a waste of evo's since their dodging skill was highly dependent on people not being able to guess which direction they would have to lead.
Even the larger aliens suffer because a heavily camped/spammed human base becomes a horribly unfun killzone, forcing more and more games into SD where aliens slowly whittle down the human defenses (meanwhile the apes stand around on turrets just waiting to die).
And then on the opposite end, humans will get killed by goons and tyrants that should have been a few body lengths too far, shots that are obvious misses end up getting kills when the target is behind walls (which isn't a bad thing for the human player) and a few other annoying little glitches.
To cut it short, unlagged would be fine if there were a few balance tweaks done, as it is though it gives a huge advantage to a competent human team. Unfortunately though it seems 1.2 is so far balancing things in the opposite direction so in all honesty I don't have much faith in future versions.
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I always thought that people had to lead their shots because bullets/energy shots/whatever had a certain amount of "travel time". I always thought that unlagged was aimed to fix that sort of thing.
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It would be fine except it basically makes everything below goon little more then a distraction or cannon fodder.
I still prefer playing with a mara over a goon since I can get my head-shots in quick and ske-daddle. As for dretch, those things are still insanely dangerous at any stage of the game, especially with support. I'd go so far as to say that if the dretches on your team are turning into free creds, your teamwork must suck and blow simultaneously. Basilisks, of course, remain an acquired taste. Really, unlagged forces the aliens to - oh, horrors - work as a cohesive team, though I guess that's bound to give humans an advantage in wholly unorganized public games.
I'll agree that the various glitch-esque kills are annoying as hell, but overall, I'm not sure I'd wanna go back to un-unlagged, since I feel the weapons and slashes now feel more "natural".flame in 3... 2...
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I'd like to know what 'natural' means to you. To me, low-ping games without unlagged are 'natural'. Anything else is false and misleading. This isn't just when unlagged steals kills from me. I've brought down many aliens as human on unlagged with magical bullets that shouldn't have hit but did anyway. =/
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Personally, a dretch or mara shouldn't have any more difficulty with Unlagged.
However, as a team, the begineers/noobs/lames will feed even more so Unlagged. Its much more unforgiving against floor rushing dretches because their speed won't save them.
Unlagged makes the rifle and dretch balanced with one another. Dretches aren't meant to be effective the whole game like the rifle is obviously not effective against larger aliens. Now, s1 aliens get popped more often.
Good maras don't have anything to complain about. You just can't lag around like a idiot and expect to live.
As a human, too many times I know I have hit a dretch or mara but I'm 1 millisecond too slow and get killed. Its frustrating as hell to have to lead hitscan weapons. With Unlagged, I'm a lot more deadly because I know how to aim, I just can't compensate for every dip and change in ping. If I see it, its dead. That's that.
Too many people are used to slight ping differences and technical faults. Unlagged and players with similar ping is intended gameplay. You are either productive or not. You have less reason to blame shit on ping because if you or someone else is truly lagging, they won't be able to respond fast enough to take advantage of hitscan weapons regardless. It doesn't magically slow down every other play but you. It just makes weapon hit instantly within a a few miliseconds.
Low ping servers is only for college kids riding the T1 backbone. A lot of other players can't get stupid low pings like that over commercial lines.
Just explain to me why someone should have to lead a hitscan weapon.
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Unlagged makes the rifle and dretch balanced with one another. Dretches aren't meant to be effective the whole game like the rifle is obviously not effective against larger aliens. Now, s1 aliens get popped more often.
I strongly disagree with that whole sentence. I don't believe unlagged balances the lower classes. The rifle is an extremely handy weapon as you can always get one (it's free) and popping as many bullets as you can into large aliens assists in taking them down and gives you creds to get better weapons. S1 aliens get popped enough.
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I use dretches and rifles for most of the game, they're the most cost efficient.
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@nux: why?
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I've edited it, giving reasons.
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I strongly disagree with that whole sentence. I don't believe unlagged balances the lower classes. The rifle is an extremely handy weapon as you can always get one (it's free) and popping as many bullets as you can into large aliens assists in taking them down and gives you creds to get better weapons. S1 aliens get popped enough.
The only good thing about the rifle is its free. With Unlagged, its good for killing dretches. Outside of that, give a reason why the rifle is good? Are you comparing it to the blaster?
Dretches on the other hand will get some kills at s3 just by being persistent and seeking any unarmed humans. They will give up a lot of kills, hopeful more so to unarmored humans with Unlagged.
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I strongly disagree with that whole sentence. I don't believe unlagged balances the lower classes. The rifle is an extremely handy weapon as you can always get one (it's free) and popping as many bullets as you can into large aliens assists in taking them down and gives you creds to get better weapons. S1 aliens get popped enough.
The only good thing about the rifle is its free. With Unlagged, its good for killing dretches. Outside of that, give a reason why the rifle is good? Are you comparing it to the blaster?
Dretches on the other hand will get some kills at s3 just by being persistent and seeking any unarmed humans. They will give up a lot of kills, hopeful more so to unarmored humans with Unlagged.
a rifle packs 150 damage per clip, 2 rifles are easily dangerous to a goon if he's not careful, and 3 can take down any single alien if they can avoid getting headshot long enough. i would say that is pretty consistent with what dretches can do.
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You need to evolve to at least a dragoon - a 3 evo class - to get a damage value higher than the dretch. They are the fastest and hardest to hit, and as a consequence remain useful throughout the game. Just use a bit of sense and a bit of stealth, and you can make the kill before your opponent even sees you, let alone unlags you to death. If they have a helmet, then you should expect to lose tbh. Go find an easier target.
The fact is, unlagged means that when you shoot at an alien, you hit them. When you chomp a human, the human gets chomped. This is just how it should work. How can you claim anything else?
And if we're talking about glitchkills, how about when I charge along behind a human who lags so much that I run into their body every couple of seconds but of course I don't actually connect because they're not really there. I can't catch up with where they really are because their lagself is in the way. How is that fair?
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a rifle packs 150 damage per clip, 2 rifles are easily dangerous to a goon if he's not careful, and 3 can take down any single alien if they can avoid getting headshot long enough. i would say that is pretty consistent with what dretches can do.
No headshots for a goon...really big if.
A goon should fear 3 rifles because that's the balance point. 3 rifles=3 evos=1 goon. But the raw damage of a goon makes rifles 'meh' against a goon. Kill 1-2 before they kill you, maybe escape the last.
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You can solve this by making everyone have like 50 ping. O WAIT!
See, if your ping is like 200, leading does NOT solve everything. If you lead, they can still just dodge it. If there were people that knew exactly when the person shooting actually fired, they could simply keep dodging shots and never once get hit. Example: You're standing still. A person with 200 ping shoots at you, dead on, killshot. You move JUST then. They miss. You sit still again. They shoot again. You move to the left again. They miss. So they figure you're going to move the left again. They shoot off to that side. Oh you decided to move to the right. They miss again. They HAVE to get lucky.
No one is going to come up with something that people WON'T have to adjust to that will equal out the lag issues. I prefer to play with unlagged on myself, but if my ping is 100 or less, I find nothing to complain about if there is no unlagged. Who would?
UNLAGGED DOES ITS JOB WELL.
Its job is NOT to make everything perfect. Unlagged's job is to make it so the people with high pings can ATTACK straight and have as close to equal potential in hitting things to the low pingers as they can, and in doing so, they can have fun too without the frustration about not being able to kill things because of their pings.
Nothing is going to make these ping differences and complaints go away, but give credit where credit is due. These people making all these things like unlagged are trying to make the gameplay as solid and smooth as they can, and unlagged is a step in the right direction, even if there are some issues still. Have patience.
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I commend the people who made unlagged for spending time to solve the issue of people getting frustrated when they don't get the kill just because they live in Antarctica. They've done well in making it easier for them to kill things.
I personally don't go on unlagged servers because the tiny corrections it makes mid-game defy my expectations for what should have happened. It 'corrects' even when there is no lag problem. Maybe this is just something that needs to be tweaked but for now I steer clear of it. The game is alot more fun when everyone has low pings in my honest opionion. What with all the frustrations people seem to have when things don't go right for them in game, I can't see why they would prefer it (other than it making it easier for them to hit things that their lack of aiming skillz would have deprived them of otherwise). If you don't mind the glitchy corrections then I'm sure it's a laugh and a half.
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Unlagged is the best thing they implemented in Trem. And I think it should even be the native gameplay style instead of being able to be disabled with a cvar.
Players that never play with high pings should not being saying their opinions (I don't read them all yet), but I can say that since unlagged was implemented I refuse to play on servers where I get 200+ ping and that have unlagged off. About more than 90% of the servers usually give me such weird ping and still the majority of them don't have unlagged enabled. Only less than 12 servers¹ can give me a ping between 150-200 and only one in Brazil can give me something between 45-75 and only on my home-server I can get no lag.
¹ And most of those have brainless admins (from famous clans) that love to kick/ban innocent people.
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if you have a bad ping, dont play on that server. why do you care about servers that you would make almost unplayable by joining? just play on ones near you. i see no reason to play on a server half the world away from you.
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Only less than 12 servers can give me a ping between 150-200 and only one in Brazil can give me something between 45-75 and only on my home-server I can get no lag.
Some people don't get many servers where they ping low. That being said, I only frequent five or so servers, and most people have five or so servers that give them low ping. Unlagged also opens up clan opportunities, say you're a few hours off, timezone wise, but you're way up north or south, you can still join the clan if they have unlagged servers and play matches on unlagged without ping being an issue.
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Unlagged is the best thing they implemented in Trem. And I think it should even be the native gameplay style instead of being able to be disabled with a cvar.
Players that never play with high pings should not being saying their opinions..
It becoming the native gameplay is something I'm afraid of.
Players that never play with high pings should not share their opinion? Why ever not? They're the innocent gamers who pay for other peoples lag.
if you have a bad ping, dont play on that server. why do you care about servers that you would make almost unplayable by joining? just play on ones near you. i see no reason to play on a server half the world away from you.
There's someone who understands me. *hugs AKAnotu*
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i'm not talking about him or people like henners, who play in relativley isolated (in trem server standards) places. i'm talking about people in, say, the netherlands or central europe who play on west cost (of america) servers. there should be a system that prevents you from joining servers that you get a 125+ ping on, unless it's one of the closest to you
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Players that never play with high pings should not share their opinion? Why ever not? They're the innocent gamers who pay for other peoples lag.
How the fuck is adapting to shooting AT the alien rather then infront of it paying for anything? What? Afraid of a little change? Can't adapt to a different situation? Can't aim straight?
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I don't remember saying you should lead your fire. I never have to aim ahead of my target with hitscan. I play against low-pingers on fairly local servers. Lag is annoying because it makes unpredictable things happen. Unlagged is annoying because it tries to correct it and encourages high pingers to join the server. You can pretend the lag is removed, but it's just masked. There's no escaping a slow connection that's caused by the 13 thousand kilometers of rock that are between you and the server.
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there should be a system that prevents you from joining servers that you get a 125+ ping on, unless it's one of the closest to you
Sorry, but the lag of one don't hurt the lag of the others; I explain: if someone stuck at 999 it will not increase the other's lag, because the amount of bandwidth they can use is limited by the variable sv_maxrate defined by the server.
[Am I wrong (and why, if yes)?]
Oh, and 125 is a very good ping if you don't have a 1 gibabyte (lol) or more of connection speed, or if you don't have "First World" ISP, or if you don't live in the same region (state/country/continent) of the server.
They're the innocent gamers who pay for other peoples lag.
The only reason why low ping players hate unlagged is that they can be easily killed by good players with high ping.
One more idea I had:
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine? If it was worked since Q3 and if it was the only way used by the methods (in the game's source-code) to control the relation between bullets, players, gravity etc., wouldn't it turn the engine's natural gameplay into something better?
(Sorry if I'm completely wrong...)
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i'm not talking about him or people like henners, who play in relativley isolated (in trem server standards) places. i'm talking about people in, say, the netherlands or central europe who play on west cost (of america) servers. there should be a system that prevents you from joining servers that you get a 125+ ping on, unless it's one of the closest to you
There is such a system. Some cvar like sv_maxping. It's responsible for the message you get when you join a server and you see "Server is for low pings only." However, 125 is a ridiculous threshold. I learned the FPS genre playing Clancy shooters with pings that averaged 200. The only thing I and the other players were worried about was "How can I rape my opponent here and now?" 125 is not the cutoff point of playable/unplayable - there is, in fact, no such cutoff point. Nevertheless, sv_maxping is there for people to use.
edit: fixed your cvar name to avoid making a new post (we really need multiquote) - kev
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The only reason why low ping players hate unlagged is that they can be easily killed by good players with high ping.
I have no problem with good players killing me when it happened 'naturally'. I know what this looks like because I face very experienced players who have low pings with me. What frustrated me is when a seemingly non-laggy goon chomps me from the other side of the room.
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine?
It becoming the native gameplay is something I'm afraid of.
There is such a system. Some cvar like g_maxping. It's responsible for the message you get when you join a server and you see "Server is for low pings only." However, 125 is a ridiculous threshold.
This is a very handy feature. Personally I'd call anything higher than 100, laggy. I don't think those who play with higher pings know what they're missing.
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Nevertheless, g_maxping is there for people to use
And many servers are abusing it, limiting to 250 or less... a ping of 250 ping don't hurt anyone else than the player who have it.
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Nevertheless, g_maxping is there for people to use
And many servers are abusing it, limiting to 250 or less... a ping of 250 ping don't hurt anyone else than the player who have it.
You clearly enjoy a different kind of game to me. Maybe I've been spoilt by the low-ping servers I frequent.
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You clearly enjoy a different kind of game to me. Maybe I've been spoilt by the low-ping servers I frequent.
I enjoy the same game of you, but I was just remembering my start when 1.1.0 was released and there was no server where I could get less than 200 ping. It took many months until some brazilian (jmonteiro) learned how to make servers... I don't remember if I made a server before him or not; however, my stupid connection (upload <<< download) doesn't allow my server to be a real server with more than 6 players. In those months, I learnt to play and needed to support such big pings and the inexistence of unlagged.
Well, I can say you learn more when playing with big pings, because it's harder... but not really funny.
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i'm not talking about him or people like henners, who play in relativley isolated (in trem server standards) places. i'm talking about people in, say, the netherlands or central europe who play on west cost (of america) servers. there should be a system that prevents you from joining servers that you get a 125+ ping on, unless it's one of the closest to you
There is such a system. Some cvar like sv_maxping. It's responsible for the message you get when you join a server and you see "Server is for low pings only." However, 125 is a ridiculous threshold. I learned the FPS genre playing Clancy shooters with pings that averaged 200. The only thing I and the other players were worried about was "How can I rape my opponent here and now?" 125 is not the cutoff point of playable/unplayable - there is, in fact, no such cutoff point. Nevertheless, sv_maxping is there for people to use.
edit: fixed your cvar name to avoid making a new post (we really need multiquote) - kev
i'm talking about built in, because most servers dont have one, or it's set at like, 600
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Nevertheless, g_maxping is there for people to use
And many servers are abusing it, limiting to 250 or less... a ping of 250 ping don't hurt anyone else than the player who have it.
actually...
anything above about 150 starts causing pretty big problems: if you've played on trem.tjw.org recently, you will undoubtedly have heard complaints about lagsaws... players with 200 ping end up having more "range" as they advance towards a goon that the goon who is backing up, and since saws do much more damage/second than anything in the game, humans all of a sudden have the best melee weapon in addition to the only ranged weapons. this is of course a little more extreme because of the saw range buff, but above 150 ping all weapons start to have similar issues.
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kev, is it some bug with unlagged?
btw kev, will you or tony improve/fix the can't-build-in-front-of-doors issue?
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kev, is it some bug with unlagged?
btw kev, will you or tony improve/fix the can't-build-in-front-of-doors issue?
it's not a bug, it's an unfixable problem.[edit] to clarify, you can't magically make lag go away, there is latency between the clients and server and there's nothing you can do about it. what unlagged does is remove advantage of the person who pings 10 the server over the one who pings 80, without putting either of them at a disadvantage (other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason), it continues to work reasonably well up to about 150 ping, but around there weird things start to happen that give high ping players an unfair advantage[/edit] i have the patch for the can't-build-in-front-of-doors bug on my hd, but it involves such a huge blanket exception that i'm not comfortable submitting it until i test it on a live server (something i'm lacking atm).
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Everybody has to like the idea of unlagged. it's in the very name. Use this feature, and all your games will be as smooth as you could want them.
Except, they aren't. With surprisingly low pings (pings that would be tolerable in a "lagged" environment), you encounter all kinds of anomalies.
1) Since things no longer happen in real time, as they used to, it is possible for my fleeing tyrant to die while safely around a corner. This is the first thing everybody notices. In my time, I'm safe, in my enemy's time, I'm not. You see the same sort of thing happen with the roles reversed - a human might be running backwards off a ledge to try to get the hell away from my tyrant, but unlagged gives me a sort of range boost, so my enemy dies because I killed him in my time, even though he was safe in his time. My experience with any other game than Trem is that there is only one timeline as to when things happen, which is in the hands of the server: where the server thinks things are, not where the clients think things are.
2) Random hits. I can't explain the technical aspects of this, but I don't believe I'm the only one to have experienced it. It's most noticeable with the MD - you're taking what you hope are well aimed shots are your enemy, and one of them hits, but you immediately realize you didn't have your sights on the guy. It's like you are shooting at one dretch with multiple hitboxes.
3) Element of balance - The clearest example is the ATCS hallway - you gather a couple of would-be-bad-shots-without-unlagged naked rifles and stand them together, and no dretch can survive the stretch of hallway to attack them. It is my observation that dretch > lagged rifle and unlagged rifle > dretch.
Edit: Related thoughts...
Lagged and unlagged are not one and the same and so cannot be balanced the same. (I think this makes people think that the game should be standardized one way or the other, and since it would be impossible to completely get rid of all the unlagged servers, the way to standardize would be to mandate unlagged.) Personally I don't consider some perfect balance to be important, or possible, therefore I don't see it as something to strive for. We have two drastically different teams, and right now they are not balanced with unlagged or without it. But they are not egregiously imbalanced. The way to say it is the way the Supreme Court integrated schools - "separate is inherently unequal." I don't like unlagged or third party balance. Third party mods are great, but the idea of somebody saying "I have the secret to a perfectly balanced game. download HERE!" is nonsense.
You can't balance the game based off of players, because players themselves are imbalanced. The analogy is chess - white and black are mirrors of each other, so the players decide the match. To REALLY balance Tremulous, you would have to have players who are mirrors of each other (an impossibility) and tweak the teams until you can statistically show (by an infinite string of drawn games) that the teams are balanced. And at the very end of it, after you produce your two separate but equal (IMPOSSIBLE) teams, you hand them to a community of how many thousands of unique players?
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what unlagged does is remove advantage of the person who pings 10 the server over the one who pings 80, without putting either of them at a disadvantage (other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason)
Bullshit, it gives a disadvantage to the 10 ping guy because he can't see what his 80 ping opponent is doing. It seems nobody actually understands what unlagged does besides making hitscan hitscan. It is really frustrating when I steer clear of a goon pounce only to be put back in range by unlagged because the guy has 80 ping.
Unlagged makes me have to guess for each opponent what ping he is playing with, where he is at on his screen, and where he is going. Without it I just need to compensate for my own ping (which I can do for up to about 140 without much loss of accuracy) Seems fair to you?
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1) Since things no longer happen in real time, as they used to, it is possible for my fleeing tyrant to die while safely around a corner. This is the first thing everybody notices. In my time, I'm safe, in my enemy's time, I'm not. You see the same sort of thing happen with the roles reversed - a human might be running backwards off a ledge to try to get the hell away from my tyrant, but unlagged gives me a sort of range boost, so my enemy dies because I killed him in my time, even though he was safe in his time. My experience with any other game than Trem is that there is only one timeline as to when things happen, which is in the hands of the server: where the server thinks things are, not where the clients think things are.
2) Random hits. I can't explain the technical aspects of this, but I don't believe I'm the only one to have experienced it. It's most noticeable with the MD - you're taking what you hope are well aimed shots are your enemy, and one of them hits, but you immediately realize you didn't have your sights on the guy. It's like you are shooting at one dretch with multiple hitboxes.
3) Element of balance - The clearest example is the ATCS hallway - you gather a couple of would-be-bad-shots-without-unlagged naked rifles and stand them together, and no dretch can survive the stretch of hallway to attack them. It is my observation that dretch > lagged rifle and unlagged rifle > dretch.
Edit: Related thoughts...
Lagged and unlagged are not one and the same and so cannot be balanced the same. (I think this makes people think that the game should be standardized one way or the other, and since it would be impossible to completely get rid of all the unlagged servers, the way to standardize would be to mandate unlagged.) Personally I don't consider some perfect balance to be important, or possible, therefore I don't see it as something to strive for. We have two drastically different teams, and right now they are not balanced with unlagged or without it. But they are not egregiously imbalanced. The way to say it is the way the Supreme Court integrated schools - "separate is inherently unequal." I don't like unlagged or third party balance. Third party mods are great, but the idea of somebody saying "I have the secret to a perfectly balanced game. download HERE!" is nonsense.
You can't balance the game based off of players, because players themselves are imbalanced. The analogy is chess - white and black are mirrors of each other, so the players decide the match. To REALLY balance Tremulous, you would have to have players who are mirrors of each other (an impossibility) and tweak the teams until you can statistically show (by an infinite string of drawn games) that the teams are balanced. And at the very end of it, after you produce your two separate but equal (IMPOSSIBLE) teams, you hand them to a community of how many thousands of unique players?
Bullshit, it gives a disadvantage to the 10 ping guy because he can't see what his 80 ping opponent is doing. It seems nobody actually understands what unlagged does besides making hitscan hitscan. It is really frustrating when I steer clear of a goon pounce only to be put back in range by unlagged because the guy has 80 ping.
Unlagged makes me have to guess for each opponent what ping he is playing with, where he is at on his screen, and where he is going. Without it I just need to compensate for my own ping (which I can do for up to about 140 without much loss of accuracy) Seems fair to you?
Neither one of you know what Unlagged is.
You can't outrun a bullet. Hitscan weapons are instant hit. You can't dodge it.
You can dodge where I'm aiming. But if I fire a bullet at you, no matter what ping or what speed you are moving, you are hit. The only way you could dodge a bullet is if you are moving faster than a bullet. Does any alien class move that fast?
All Unlagged does is roll back the sever by a few milliseconds to check if something happened when the server was busy. Since hitscan weapons are instant and servers can't process anything instantly, it possible to shoot something faster than the server can process it. So, players can move away but still get shot down. The player did move but not faster than the bullet. Its not because the game is slower, its because the server is more accurate in what it reports.
Don't trust what you see on your screen or what you think the other person sees. Doesn't matter if it is Unlagged or not. You are thinking 'They couldn't possibly shoot me that fast' when in reality 'You can't run away that fast'.
edit: Its the same for alien classes. If a goon pounces or a rant mauls you and you thought you got away, you didn't. You can't move faster than a maul or a close range pounce. The human movement is slower than those attacks. Its impossible. The problem is you misjudged when they were going to attack. Its like the saying and fact that 'the hand is faster than the eye'. They can move or attack faster than you can respond to, let alone move away. You are just used to lag compensating for your poor judgement.
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I think I can explain this. We have four levels of preference:
-Low-ping games without Unlagged-
The top one is preferable to all people. Low-ping games don't have the upredictable chomps across rooms or the bullets round corners. Instead, all the unpredictability is down to the cunning of your opponent.
-High-ping games with Unlagged-
For those who can't achieve the top level, they take the next one down. When you're too far from any populated server, you have to settle for a laggy one. Thanks to unlagged, this experience isn't so bad.
-High-ping games without Unlagged-
All the people who can't achieve the top level, wouldn't settle for anything less than unlagged.
-Low-ping games with Unlagged-
No one would use unlagged when there isn't a lag problem.
I get this impression when I talk to these trem-players who like unlagged. They seem to believe it a cold fact that if you don't choose unlagged, you will have lag. As many european players might tell you, there are plenty of lowping servers in a small area here and so we don't have that problem. Kevlarman, IJsje and me all seem to think generally 100+ pings are laggy. This is because we're used to playing low-ping games. I can imagine that people who are used to playing on high-ping servers have a very different idea of what lag is.
I'd like to ask here that unlagged will always have an off switch. I'm happy to let those who like unlagged keep their unlagged on their servers. I'm not happy to hear that those people want it to be always on. These people clearly don't understand how it disrupts low-pingers. As I said earlier on, I've had unlagged games where both me and some player have pings around about 50 and yet he warped like hell on my screen. I've had games where the majority of players were low-ping, but one person was heavily lagging. He didn't look like he was lagging so it was quite a shock to see him chomp me from across the room. There's also been many times I've been shot round corners. This is all with unlagged correcting things that shouldn't be corrected on low-ping games.
EDIT:
what unlagged does is remove advantage of the person who pings 10 the server over the one who pings 80, without putting either of them at a disadvantage (other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason
That sounds very similar to how I put it in my original post. My only complaint is when you say "other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason". I'd say that WITH unlagged, the guy with 80 ping has a very good reason to be pwnd. His connection can't send the information fast enough for his skillz to be properly translated. That guy might be a very good player, but that doesn't mean the server should decide he probably would have hit me while he's lagging. If anything, there's no good reason for the goon that was clearly across the room to have chomped me. How was I supoposed to react to something I couldn't see happening? In a low-ping (and no unlagged) game, I'd have the opportunity to see his pounce and dodge it.
I'll point out that your impression of what lag is must be different to most of the pro-unlagged people here as you think that 80 is a high ping. To them this ping is luxuriously low.
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-Low-ping games with Unlagged-
No one would use unlagged when there isn't a lag problem.
I would.
Unless its a lan game with everyone under 5, then unlagged should be on.
Also, can someone who understands unlagged post exactly what it does and how. As in the exact details. Then we can just ignore these losers who dont understand it and are just pissed they lost there unfair advantage.
edit:
His connection can't send the information fast enough for his skillz to be properly translated.
Its nothing to do with speed. Its latency. The speed of light. His connection might be faster than yours, just each packet has an extra 100ms travel time. Its a fact of life how the internet works. Live with it.
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-Low-ping games with Unlagged-
No one would use unlagged when there isn't a lag problem.
I would.
Unless its a lan game with everyone under 5, then unlagged should be on.
Also, can someone who understands unlagged post exactly what it does and how. As in the exact details. Then we can just ignore these losers who dont understand it and are just pissed they lost there unfair advantage.
edit:
His connection can't send the information fast enough for his skillz to be properly translated.
Its nothing to do with speed. Its latency. The speed of light. His connection might be faster than yours, just each packet has an extra 100ms travel time. Its a fact of life how the internet works. Live with it.
In my experience, unlagged affects events that were lag free because it's always busy re-deciding what happened.
If we sent signals via optical wiring all the way then the speed of light would still never be reached. Thanks to multipath dispersion, the signal would have to be boosted every so often down the line. The speed of light is only a limit to the transfer of information. That doesn't mean we can transfer that fast. We don't, however, use light for this communication. Electricity is ALOT slower than light. Though the processing time at nodes does have an affect, over large distances you can't help there being a slow connection between the nodes. If one node could send packets at a faster rate and the other could recieve them just as fast, you could in theory counter this affect. Most people just don't have that fast a connection.
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You can dodge where I'm aiming.
Not if I do not see where you are aiming
All Unlagged does is roll back the sever by a few milliseconds to check if something happened when the server was busy.
No, it rolls back the server my the amount of time it took the packet to travel from its origin (in other words, it compensates for ping, not for the fact that the server only runs at 20 fps)
So, players can move away but still get shot down. The player did move but not faster than the bullet. Its not because the game is slower, its because the server is more accurate in what it reports.
I like my game where I can see what opponent does instead of guessing it. This is because I am capable of responding in time to do something about it. If you can't I understand why you post this bullshit, but please stfu if you don't understand the problem. There IS a time between sending and receiving a packet and you can not make it go away, at best you can mask it at the expense of other players accurate reporting.
I will write my little story once again as nobody seems to understand this.
The is human with a shotgun and a dretch each at one side of the corner (on tremor, the dretch is hiding). The dretch has ping of 10, the human has a ping of 200. The human comes around the corner, the dretch walks up to him and BOEM!, the human aims his shotgun at the corner where the dretch was hiding, but moved away from, the dretch gets warped back and dies. Thank you unlagged, you really made a better game for all!
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Well the reason it APPEARS that they die after getting around the corner is because unlagged does NOT change how fast the shots connect. So you can have 500 ping, put the last shot into a tyrant, and because you had it on him when you shot, the unlagged will do its job and after that pause the bullet will connect. With unlagged, the bullets always hit what you shot at, but your ping still affects when the damage will actually occur.
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As Nux has pointed out, whether or not somebody likes Unlagged is dependant if that person usually has high ping or not.
I most certainly agree that someone who is forced to play on servers where he has a ping of over 100/150 ms has more benefit of his aiming skills when unlagged is on. But this is not the only valid point in discussing if Unlagged is better or worse in a more general point of view.
So what Unlagged basically does when I understand it correctly is attribute a hit to the player when that player had his opponent in his crosshair at the time of the shot in regards of his own time, so exactly like the client showed it to player, but regardless of the ping he has to the server and how the server or other clients saw the situation.
What Unlagged does not even out is the time difference between the move made by a player and the time that move gets registered by the opponent when the moving player has a high ping to the server. The result is that I can be killed by a high ping tyrant or a pounce+chomping goon before I had a chance to see the creature move at all. I had no time to initiate a dodge when in a low ping scenario I would have had. So as Unlagged helps to attribute a correct but timeshifted kill to a player, it has the very opposite impact on players that rely heavily on dodging and moving.
The same for a low ping creature attacking a high ping hitscan wielding human. While the low ping animal sees the high ping human turned the other way and takes that opportunity to initiate an attack, the human can already have turned around facing the alien for a good aim while the server and attacking low ping alien haven't yet registered the turn because the package with that move information is still on its way to reach the server.
So everything that used to work as an advantage to the low pinger with Unlagged off turns into an advantage to the high pinger with Unlagged on.
Its very naturally that a high pinger thinks that this is a gift from heaven while the low pinger considers this to be a curse. So the question is if your personal ping status should be the basis of deciding if Unlagged is good or not? Based on the servers I play where 90 percent of all participants have a lag of around 50-70ms, I simply hope I continue to have enough servers available for a close to real time game.
You can't change the past, except with unlagged :D In that sense, Unlagged defeats science as we know it today
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Think: unlagged gives both high and low pings the time they need to complete an attack to the enemy. Imagine: Warrior - ping=260, Morpheus - ping=10; Warrior's Dretch see Morpheus and aim at his head and hit; Morpheus is human and fire his Rifle on Warrior's Dretch; Morpheus is having a bad day and don't kill Warrior; now, the last bullet that will kill Warrior: it hits Warrior 250ms (260-10) before Warrior notices it, but in the same time Warrior hit Morpheus in the feet and killed him (Morpheus had 4hp before). Expected result with unlagged: both will die after unlagged does it math. Without unlagged: Morpheus killed Warrior, which don't even have the chance to hit him and should blame his ping.
In a new case, Warrior's Lasgun fired a bullet in Morpheus's Tyrant when this was in his vision, of course that bullet will hit the big monster even when it is hidden behind the corner in his low-ping vision, but Warrior really hit Morpheus in his high-ping vision.
unlagged affects events that were lag free because it's always busy re-deciding what happened.
So, your server uses a 486 processor that takes that long to make calcs?
I'm not happy to hear that those people want it to be always on.
If developers use their brains to make it better (fixing bugs and other issues), it could be the default and single behavior. It's like the new tjw's turrets: they got many fixes after the conception...
Unlagged really helps high-pingers, but also turns the game harder for low-pingers. I can say people with 100+ ping kill me very easy on my server where I have almost 0 ping and unlagged is on. Before unlagged, I called myself a semi-god (like Heracles) (lol), because high-pings can't almost kill low-pings without unlagged.
Want invincibility? Play with your null (zero) ping on a server full of 250+ pings without unlagged.
Want to fight like a warrior? Play with 250 ping on a lagged server (without unlagged) and in the map Arachnid2 (one of the worse maps in lag aspect) with 25+ people on the server.
Want a balanced fight? Play on an unlagged server with you low-ping against low or high pings (it doesn't matter too much).
Am I stupid/crazy enough today to write this much?
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1) Since things no longer happen in real time, as they used to, it is possible for my fleeing tyrant to die while safely around a corner.
it's possible for this to happen without unlagged also, the only reason you notice it with unlagged on is that we made the mistake of saying "you might die around the corner when you wouldn't have normally once in every 10 games at most" (i've been counting, it's happened to me exactly twice, and one of those i'm reasonably sure would have happened without unlagged).
This is the first thing everybody notices. In my time, I'm safe, in my enemy's time, I'm not. You see the same sort of thing happen with the roles reversed - a human might be running backwards off a ledge to try to get the hell away from my tyrant, but unlagged gives me a sort of range boost, so my enemy dies because I killed him in my time, even though he was safe in his time. My experience with any other game than Trem is that there is only one timeline as to when things happen, which is in the hands of the server: where the server thinks things are, not where the clients think things are.
false again, wolf:et has the same type of code, as did the original half life (and all derivative games as a result *cough*counterstrike*cough*), it's much more common to include antilag in new fpses than it is not to.
2) Random hits. I can't explain the technical aspects of this, but I don't believe I'm the only one to have experienced it. It's most noticeable with the MD - you're taking what you hope are well aimed shots are your enemy, and one of them hits, but you immediately realize you didn't have your sights on the guy. It's like you are shooting at one dretch with multiple hitboxes.
contrary to popular belief, all weapons fire instantly, there is no delay between clicking the button and you taking a shot. you "see" a delay because your client doesn't actually know that you fired your weapon until the server tells you that you did, which can be more than enough time for that dretch to move out from under your crosshairs, at which point you will hit the dretch and see a blood mark where you fired your shot.
3) Element of balance - The clearest example is the ATCS hallway - you gather a couple of would-be-bad-shots-without-unlagged naked rifles and stand them together, and no dretch can survive the stretch of hallway to attack them. It is my observation that dretch > lagged rifle and unlagged rifle > dretch.
first of all, bringing up atcs in a discussion of balance = fail. second of all, i don't see a problem evening out the alien win ratio of 65% a little.
Edit: Related thoughts...
Lagged and unlagged are not one and the same and so cannot be balanced the same. (I think this makes people think that the game should be standardized one way or the other, and since it would be impossible to completely get rid of all the unlagged servers, the way to standardize would be to mandate unlagged.) Personally I don't consider some perfect balance to be important, or possible, therefore I don't see it as something to strive for. We have two drastically different teams, and right now they are not balanced with unlagged or without it. But they are not egregiously imbalanced. The way to say it is the way the Supreme Court integrated schools - "separate is inherently unequal." I don't like unlagged or third party balance. Third party mods are great, but the idea of somebody saying "I have the secret to a perfectly balanced game. download HERE!" is nonsense.
people who say that unlagged drastically changes balance do so because they play one game on an unlagged server and come to the forums to complain. when unlagged was completely new and everyone was getting used to it, the balance stats on the first few servers to run it didn't change appreciably. if anything, i think unlagged benefits aliens more than humans, because the largest difference is on weapons that do damage in large bursts, which is basically the entire alien team with the exception of basi.
You can't balance the game based off of players, because players themselves are imbalanced. The analogy is chess - white and black are mirrors of each other, so the players decide the match. To REALLY balance Tremulous, you would have to have players who are mirrors of each other (an impossibility) and tweak the teams until you can statistically show (by an infinite string of drawn games) that the teams are balanced. And at the very end of it, after you produce your two separate but equal (IMPOSSIBLE) teams, you hand them to a community of how many thousands of unique players?
this isn't really relevant to the discussion of unlagged, so i won't comment.
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it's possible for this to happen without unlagged also, the only reason you notice it with unlagged on is that we made the mistake of saying "you might die around the corner when you wouldn't have normally once in every 10 games at most"
...what? I notice it because I see it happen, not because of what "we" said once upon a time.
And you'll never hear me say that unlagged drastically offsets the already shaky balance between the teams, but it has noticeable effects on gameplay.
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IJsje
No, it rolls back the server my the amount of time it took the packet to travel from its origin (in other words, it compensates for ping, not for the fact that the server only runs at 20 fps)
That doesn't change anything. If a dretch is at that point, at that time, and you fired, what should happen?
I like my game where I can see what opponent does instead of guessing it.......
You don't like hitscan weapons. That's fair. But how the fuck are you going to dodge a bullet?
The is human with a shotgun and a dretch each at one side of the corner (on tremor, the dretch is hiding). The dretch has ping of 10, the human has a ping of 200. The human comes around the corner, the dretch walks up to him and BOEM!, the human aims his shotgun at the corner where the dretch was hiding, but moved away from, the dretch gets warped back and dies. Thank you unlagged, you really made a better game for all!
So, its sounds like the dretch got shot and is pissed that his ping didn't save him.
Here's the whole Unlagged story.
-If you are at point A at time B
-Human shoots point A at time B
-You get shot.
Sure you may think you are dodging, but you actually fucked it up a couple 100 milliseconds ago. It sucks to die late but you would have died sooner.
Eeeew Spiders
What Unlagged does not even out is the time difference between the move made by a player and the time that move gets registered by the opponent when the moving player has a high ping to the server.
That's not true because a high pinger isn't going to move as fast or precise as a low pinger. The high pinger tyrant is the one that's going to sitting out in the open while waiting for the update, swiping at ghosts that aren't there anymore. Their times won't sync up for Unlagged to compensate because the high ping tyrant will be trying to swipe someone at a time when they have already moved, so unless they are already close or shooting, they can't possibly attack without being countered.
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I've no idea how the unlagged works nor will to figure it out, but I know one thing for sure: "I hate it".
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The is human with a shotgun and a dretch each at one side of the corner (on tremor, the dretch is hiding). The dretch has ping of 10, the human has a ping of 200. The human comes around the corner, the dretch walks up to him and BOEM!, the human aims his shotgun at the corner where the dretch was hiding, but moved away from, the dretch gets warped back and dies. Thank you unlagged, you really made a better game for all!
So, its sounds like the dretch got shot and is pissed that his ping didn't save him.
Here's the whole Unlagged story.
-If you are at point A at time B
-Human shoots point A at time B
-You get shot.
Sure you may think you are dodging, but you actually fucked it up a couple 100 milliseconds ago. It sucks to die late but you would have died sooner.
Yes but if the human would have seen the 200 pinger moving towards him he might have dodged and got him in the second blast. As you describe it however the human never gets that chance because it goes from corner to kill without letting the human see the dretch cross the intervening space. I think that is what people are uncomfortable with.
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it's possible for this to happen without unlagged also, the only reason you notice it with unlagged on is that we made the mistake of saying "you might die around the corner when you wouldn't have normally once in every 10 games at most"
...what? I notice it because I see it happen, not because of what "we" said once upon a time.
but if you saw it happen without unlagged on a server, would you come to the forums to complain about it? people complain that they can't dodge because their position is inaccurate relative to what the server sees, but this is already true without unlagged. (find a server where you get 80 ping and set cg_nopredict 1 to see what i mean)
And you'll never hear me say that unlagged drastically offsets the already shaky balance between the teams, but it has noticeable effects on gameplay.
sorry if i misinterpreted your words, it sounded a lot like one or more of the standard antiunlagged arguments that have no logic backing them up (which are "it screws balance", "i get killed around the corner", "it makes it 'too easy'")
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Scum when players have all low ping (generally in EU cw).
Maybe in USA it's different, coz many country ? Dunno.
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IJsje
No, it rolls back the server my the amount of time it took the packet to travel from its origin (in other words, it compensates for ping, not for the fact that the server only runs at 20 fps)
That doesn't change anything. If a dretch is at that point, at that time, and you fired, what should happen?
I will tell you this once more. The dretch IS NOT THERE. As you said, he gets put back in time. He IS NOT THERE. Only because the other guy's computer is receives the information that the dretch is there 100 milliseconds later, does NOT mean the dretch IS THERE. It isn't. It has moved. The information regarding the moving of the dretch has simply not arrived at the other guys computer. Sucks for the other guy but not for the dretch as he is not there. He moved, received acknowledgment from the server and IS NOT there. His monitor is showing him on the other side of the other guy. The guy who is watching from specs sees the dretch on the other side of the human. And yet you claim he is their. Why is that?
You don't like hitscan weapons. That's fair. But how the fuck are you going to dodge a bullet?
I do not dodge bullets, it is the internet, it has lag, I move from where you are aiming at.
So, its sounds like the dretch got shot and is pissed that his ping didn't save him.
He never got a chance, they guy shot him first and then he comes around the corner on his screen. Kinda sucks don't you think. The dretch got pissed he couldn't do anything about being shot because the other guy has a high ping because he is playing on dial-up from the other end of the globe while he is playing on his expensive internet connection and connected to a server that is sitting in the building next to him.
Here's the whole Unlagged story.
-If you are at point A at time B
-Human shoots point A at time B
-You get shot.
That is from the humans point of view, yes. From the dretch's point of view however:
- Dretch not at point A at time B
- Human shoots point A at time B
- You get shot
Sure you may think you are dodging, but you actually fucked it up a couple 100 milliseconds ago. It sucks to die late but you would have died sooner.
How can I fuck up dodging if I don't see the human. He only comes around the corner on my monitor 210 ms after he shot and seen me on his.
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It seems that i'll have to explain how unlagged change the time.
In a game without unlagged what you see is what the server sees your ping in the past ...
You see a dretch, and you fire at it at time 0
The server wil know you fired at <your ping> in the futur
Conclusion : with a low ping it's good, with high ping it is not ... you only have to manage your own ping (and after a few game you begin to know it well)
the dretch will have seen you fire <his ping> after the server know you fired, he is dead <his ping> in the past...
without unlagged your ping does not change anything except what you see. I mean that it does not change ANYTHING for the server.
Now with unlagged
at time 0 you fire at that dretch
the server will know you fired at time <your ping>
what you had on your screen was <your ping> in the past (-<your ping>)
the server will go back to <your ping> in the past, so that what you see is what you get (you fired at a dretch that was in your crosshair)
you kill the dretch at -<your ping> in the past
kwel, that was easy
now for the dretch it's not the same, the server sent to him that he was dead <your ping> after you fired, that is to say <2*your ping> before the server send "you are dead" to the dretch
then that message takes <his ping> to travel from the server to the dretch
he was killed <2*your ping + his ping> in the past
imagine that you have like 10 of ping and that he as got 200 of ping
without unlagged he died 200msec in the past (for him) ... damn his ping is shit ... he should play somewhere else
with unlagged he died 220 msec in the past (for him) ... damn his ping is shit ... he should play somewhere else
no real difference when a good pinger attack you
now imagine you've got a ping off 200 and that he's got one of 10
without unlagged he died 10msec in the past ... he should have dodged your fire ... what a nub he is
with unlagged he died 410msec in the past ... OMG!!!!§§§§§!!!!ZOMG!!!!!§§§!!!!!!§§§!!!!!§§!!!111 HE WAS MILES AWAY BUT YOU SHOT HIM
in fact he could not escape
he even did not know you had seen him and his dodge got no use because you kill him in the past ...
Here you can see that high pingers got a HUGE power : they can kill in the past
that's why i hate unlagged, that rollback thing seems kwel ... but in fact it sucks
(and for those that use unlagged 20 i say looool : it corrects only 10 of ping that is to say nothing)
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IJsje
I will tell you this once more. The dretch IS NOT THERE. As you said, he gets put back in time. He IS NOT THERE. Only because the other guy's computer is receives the information that the dretch is there 100 milliseconds later, does NOT mean the dretch IS THERE. It isn't. It has moved. The information regarding the moving of the dretch has simply not arrived at the other guys computer. Sucks for the other guy but not for the dretch as he is not there. He moved, received acknowledgment from the server and IS NOT there. His monitor is showing him on the other side of the other guy. The guy who is watching from specs sees the dretch on the other side of the human. And yet you claim he is their. Why is that?
The issue with that is that if you open and he saw you, you died. You thought you weren't seen but you were.
This goes both ways, so its not an advantage.
It also depends on the time that the dretch moved. If dretch moved earlier and the guy sees the dretch and fires, the times of the dretch's position have to match up with the time of the fire. If they match, its a kill. So, you can move out and move back. But just because you moved back before you saw the shot, doesn't mean you are safe. You depending on being able to time your reaction to their shots when in reality, you are just setting yourself up to get shot. Its an instant weapon, stop trying to beat the bullet.
Otherwise, Unlagged knows that the human didn't shoot the right place and the right time won't accredit the kill, regardless of what the kills says. They can be running in slow motion on their client but they won't get kills that aren't consistent with the server space.
What it seems like is the dretch moves late.
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temple, most of what you say is all true. It's true that in a 0-0 ping situation you cannot evade a shot by a hitscan weapon when the shot is being fired.
Also, would it be great that when you have something in your crosshair and you shoot that moment that it is also registered as a kill by the server regardless of your ping? Yes, that would be tremendous, and i would also encourage any endeavours in that matter by developers.
But all the above points is not what is being challenged. Maybe things get more clear if stretching the numbers to extremes.
Lets say a human player or a tyrant has 2000ms of lag with Unlagged ON. That would be 2 minutes. In those 2 minutes, he could walk up into the opponents base, shoot or swipe at everything he sees and then walks back to his own base.
For the killed players it will look like this: You hear an enemy approaching. Instead of attacking you decide to leave the base through the other door. When you glance shortly back to the space you are leaving you see the player entering your base, shoots randomly at empty spots hitting nothing, the server suddently says you are dead while you are not even in the same room anymore and you see the opponent walking back to his base with a higher killcount than he had when he entered the base.
Now to come back to a more realistic setting, simply reduce the lagging players ping while at the same time reducing the distance he has to move to get you in your sight.
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Listen people.
Unlagged will almost never kill you. Exceptions would be when the server chokes on a packet and starts doing 2+3=53 while handleing the extra calculations.
Unlagged will, however, prevent lag from saving your life. If lag was not there in the first place, it ideally should make no difference.
People who used to be good at dodging before unlagged now feel like suck because it is new and you aren't used to it, and some situations are changed.
Example 1: Marksman can't lead
Stock (Pre-unlagged)
The attacker does not know how to lead properly, so he misses you completely and you hop around unscathed.
Unlagged
Again, the attacker does not lead, and he shoots at what he sees as you being there. The server re-winds it for him, and confirms that would have hit you had there been perfect 0 latency. It registers as a hit, and you walk away bleeding.
Example 2: Corner-warp
Stock
You make a last minute dodge to safety. The attacker's client did not register the dodge happen until after the fact, so he shoots at your 'shadow' and you make it out clean.
Unlagged
You make a last-minute dodge to safety. The attacker's client still does not see the dodge until after it happens. However, when he shoots a direct hit on you, the server re-winds it to see if he would have hit you had there been perfect 0 latency. It would have hit you, so it registers as a hit and you unfortunately die.
Everyone loves the first example, as its what unlagged is supposed to do. However, not many people like the second, as it is very unfair from thier point of view, but indeed very fair from the attackers, and from a global standpoint. I will admit that I am a much better player without unlagged, but I support the option being there none the less. If you don't like it, leave it off on your own servers, and if you really don't like it, you can choose different servers to play on.
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Here is a little game from the perspective of two players, Mr.X and Dr.Y.
One day, Mr.X decides to play some tremulous on his computer. He looks at his server list and find that he has poor pings with all the servers. Mr.X was about to regret his decision on moving to Antarctica when.. he remembers! Unlagged can help him!
He promptly joins Server-Z which happens to be running Unlagged. Mr.X fetches a coffee while he waits for the server to connect.. The next day he wakes up to find it's connected. He celebrates with another coffee.
He joins aliens and finds he has entered into a calm, magical world where dretches walk through walls and bullets never seem to fire when he expects them to. At least it's fluent -he thinks while appearing on and off a ledge.
He sees a human and happily strolls up to him as he appears to be distracted by something over Mr.X's shoulder, and proceeds to chomp his head off.
Dr.Y was happily chomped by Mr.X
Mr.X is quite proud of himself and takes a calm stroll past the enemy base to find other friendly people..
Meanwhile, over at Dr.Y's computer, Dr.Y is twitching away at his mouse and keyboard murdering all that he sees. Dr.Y is frequently playing on Server-Z because it's the only server he has a very low ping with. He notices a goon step right into his firing line and fills him full of lead. Strangely the goon doesn't die, but instead manages to chomp Dr.Y's head off from the other side of the room and walk off. Dr.Y get's very frustrated. "How the hell did that happen?!" -Dr.Y yells.
The next day Dr.Y is startled by the latest news. Unlagged has been made part of the game and the option to turn it off has been removed due to popular demand. There were just so many people who weren't near many good ping servers, they wanted all the nearest servers to have to run unlagged. The devs decided this would be ok with their new an improved unlagged which the majority of players seem to like. Dr.Y isn't one of the usual high pingers that make up the bulk of the tremulous community, so he doesn't matter.
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How can I fuck up dodging if I don't see the human. He only comes around the corner on my monitor 210 ms after he shot and seen me on his.
That would only happen if your ping is 210.
@Eeeew Spiders
2000 ping = 2 seconds, and would probably time out.
And people seem to be incapable of reading.
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techhead
+1
WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get)
Where you shoot is where you hit something, in the moment you shot.
Who was in the place you shot is who will receive your bullet.
HP flows out faster as more people will hit you, because they will hit you when they see you.
You need to learn how to avoid that and escape alive.
Harder. Better? Different.
P.S.: Dretchs and Goon's Pounce Attack are like projectiles, so they fill my bullets category.
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If you don't like it, leave it off on your own servers, and if you really don't like it, you can choose different servers to play on.
That's exactly the point that some of us are making. The desire was expressed to make Unlagged the default and stock setting. This is what is being challenged. Nobody is saying to flush Unlagged down the toilet. A lot of effort went into the design of it. I would fully support a notion that there should be some server where players can play that have no access to a tremulous server near by. I am just hoping that the servers I frequent with my low ping will not use Unlagged until the problems that have been discussed here have been solved.
@Nux: bah, you beat my 2000ms example with your coffee time ping example:P
would probably time out. And people seem to be incapable of reading.
my error in calculation, make that 12000ms in my example. It just illustrates what is happening if you stretch the Unlagged idea. And about incabable of reading:
Now to come back to a more realistic setting, simply reduce the lagging players ping while at the same time reducing the distance he has to move to get you in your sight.
to your answer about time out.
phenomenas become more clear if you test the theories in extremes.
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Nice use of extremes, but it proves a valid point none-the-less. However, unlagged probably should be implemented with a sv_maxrewindtime. Zero would naturally mean no limit, and as long as your ping is less than the set limit, you would experience unlagged as it is now. People with pings higher than that would only be given that much slack, no more. A much more friendly alternative to sv_maxping.
On a side note, I imagined that the one with the doctorate would also be the one living in Antarctica.
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basically put...
You have 2 pipes
=====
and _____
Can you guess unlagged? Its the second one
Would you prefer the water to leak, and drown you, or would you prefer the water to stay in the pipe of your house? Thats what i thought kthxbye
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Shhhh, there ARE emo people in this world. :roll: The answer isn't the same for EVERYONE. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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there already is a limit on how much unlagged will rewind time to calculate if your attack hit anything (in fact there's 2, the second and more useful one being sv_maxping): the server only keeps player positions for 500ms, nothing it can do nothing beyond that.
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Yes there should be- and is -a limit to how far back it rewinds. The kind of extreme situations that would occur with very high pings and very long rewinds have now been avoided! Hoorah!
There's another extreme situation though. This one hasn't been avoided.. For you see, Dr.Y achieved his doctorate in neural science many years back. He studied the limits to how fast a brain can process various concepts and situations. Over time, he found that the constant challenging and testing of his own mind had significantly increased his awareness of events in a short space of time.
Nowadays, Dr.Y puts his skills to very good use. He can be found pwning n00bs any time over at Server-Z. Dr.Y notices the discrepancies brought on by lag and unlag as if they were played in slow motion. To Dr.Y, the lag time is an eternity. When the servers gives Dr.Y an eternity of false information which eventually costs him and aids the lagger, Dr.Y feels a little upset.
As for Mr.X.. He doesn't really care very much about tremulous. He's too busy surfing icicle mountains and ploughing his snow fields.
@Eeeew Spiders: :D
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Nux has a very valid point! Has Unlagged been tested at all by -20°C? :-D
____
So max rollback time is currently 200ms, which is 1/5 of a second.
- How often can a person change aiming directions in this time given a high sens mouse which most of the very good players have?
- How many times can a player turn around 180° in 1/5 of a second?
- How far does a player needs to be away from a corner to make it around that corner in 1/5 of a second?
How much for all the above when rollback time is 1/2 of a second (500ms). And how much for all that with a rollback time of 1/10 of a second (100ms)
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Unlagged is always a good thing, but... players need to patient. Implementing the system is easy, but fine tunning it so it really feels right requires quite a time.
Also, the unlagged implementation has to be restricted. The goal is not making people with 300 ping play as in LAN. It is to help people with already decent pings and tie the playing field for them. The backwards reconciliation needs to be limited to a max or 100/150 latency to prevent very high pingers producing glitches on low pingers. People trying to play with bigger pings are already in too bad conditions to bother helping them further than removing 100 from their delay.
I should say, to explain why I talk like this: I implemented the antilag system in Warsow. It's not an unlagged port. I did it from scratch, and didn't even read unlagged docs, but it's the same concept. So I have experience. Writting it was easy and didn't take more than a few days. It took 3 Warsow releases until the fine tunning took it to how it feels now, which is the first one I consider feeling "right".
I must add. I played in a Trem server with unlagged. I think it was a balance mod server, and was quite a while ago. It didn't feel good at all, but the system was working. Very far from ET-like levels, but it's just a matter of keeping evolving it.
Trem is harder to fine-tune than ET, tho. It's more similar to Warsow's difficulty (ET is all bullets, which are the easiest to antilag). I'll make some recommendations based on my experience. Feel free to ignore the following :)
- Reconciliating method is not always good for projectiles, specially those with splash damage. I'd recommend to use a pre-stepping method for Lucy balls (spawn the lucy shot forward by the compensation latency).
- But sometimes it does work good for the fast flying ones without splashdamage. I'd backwards reconciliate pulse rifle.
If you backwards reconciliate a projectile, it is a good idea to hack it's position forward by the latency only for the transmission, so the other clients see it in the position which will damage them. This projectile offseting would require to modify the entity writting routine, tho, so it can't be mod based.
- Try to keep the latency compensation values smooth, at both client and server. Some averaging of the last ones does help to achieve a consistant feeling.
- Don't hesitate to add an arbitrary nudge cvar on the server side to fine tune the antilag. Latency precission is impossible, and some manual tunning may end up being the only way. Also, perfect antilag may end up feeling like you must shoot after the enemy to hit (Q3 engine has a delay even on listen server), so the server may need to put back this delay to feel natural.
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jal, i find your post very informative, thanks.
I'd recommend to use a pre-stepping method for Lucy balls (spawn the lucy shot forward by the compensation latency).
Wouldn't this give a player less time to dodge a lucy from a high pinger than a lucy from a low pinger? On the other hand a lucy may be slow enough for not making much difference. Different though with pulse, where you could have been pulsed before you see the energy bolt leave the weapon.
And with the lucy, what happens when you stand exactly infront of the lucy weapon. Would the energy bolt spawn behind you?
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Honestly, I think unlagged is not a very big deal and it's just turned into the de facto excuse for dying in an embarrassing way. Every day I see some long-time players run across a mass of humans and when they die in a hail of bullets, it's "OMFG unlagged."
We should conduct a test for all the players that complain about unlagged - have them play for ten minutes in a given server with players who have average pings (100-150) and then ask them whether they were playing in unlagged or not. For all their complaining, I bet you they would not even have any clue.
The only reason people ask "is this server unlagged?" is so they can bitch about it when they die.
I also don't understand why people think unlagged favors humans necessarily. Aliens aim and lead too. In fact, every attack in Trem is an aimed, timed attack. Aliens even have projectile attacks as well (snipe, pounce). Regardless of how much you hate unlagged, I don't think there's really much sense in saying it unfairly favors one side over the other. Just because you would conventionally think of aiming as more important to firing standard weapons doesn't mean that humans get more help from unlagged.
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"]...it's just turned into the de facto excuse for dying in an embarrassing way...
The only reason people ask "is this server unlagged?" is so they can bitch about it when they die.
Computer[SU], you are basing your reasons on quite false assumptions you make about people posting here.
"]I also don't understand why people think unlagged favors humans necessarily.
Nobody says it favors a certain race, again you make false assumptions and misinterpret what has been said just to make your point. The complaint is that a low pinger has less time to react to moves of a high pinger than to moves of a low pinger when unlagged is on and a tyrant/goon/hitscanweapon (or anything else that is being credited a kill due to the unrolling mechanism) is involved. Read up.
And people seem to be incapable of reading.
Actually i am really starting to agree with you there :D
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Unlagged made me do one conclusion :
The players who has a natural ability to prevent enemy's movement or are training to dodge, don't like it because they are always dead in the past with a fucking weird sensation of an alien watching in another side. These kind of people generally don't have any problems to aim by managing their own ping. In one word, they only see disadvantages in unlagged.
The players who has a natural hability to be static and die everytime by good aliens don't see any differences with or without unlagged about dodging (haha they don't dodge so it's normal). But because they sux at aim by managing their own ping, the are in love with unlagged which it make them hit enemies they couldn't dream about.
So i describe here 2 kind of people :
Players who can aim, dodge and manage their own ping==> good players
Players who don't dodge, can't aim (without unlagged), prefer to give their own ping to the opponent than managing them self ==> erm ...
You can easy deduce for what kind of players unlagged was made.
Unlagged is the easiest way to feel good in tremulous but ... it's just a feeling imho.
Unlagged will never emulates a lan sensation ...
Btw i can say what i want, i stopped playing xD, but a last flame to show to people that unlagged is for nubs was a good candy !
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Computer[SU], you are basing your reasons on quite false assumptions you make about people posting here.
I don't know what false assumptions you are talking about. Unless anyone who posted here has asked "is this server unlagged?" then I didn't even say anything about them.
Nobody says it favors a certain race, again you make false assumptions and misinterpret what has been said just to make your point. The complaint is that a low pinger has less time to react to moves of a high pinger than to moves of a low pinger when unlagged is on and a tyrant/goon/hitscanweapon (or anything else that is being credited a kill due to the unrolling mechanism) is involved. Read up.
Look man, I didn't call you out here, I said "people think unlagged favors humans," not "posters in this thread think unlagged favors humans." Yes, over my many months of playing Trem I have heard lots of people say that unlagged favors humans. I was addressing those people, not you.
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[A],
When you play with 200+ ping on a server *without unlagged* as being a human, you can't dodge a goon with 30- ping; you can only run away and die (unless we are talking about a very noob goon). However, I suppose you never played with such ping, or are forgetting the times you did.
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@Computer[SU]: apologies then for my tone, i misinterpreted your statement for being thread related.
[A],
When you play with 200+ ping on a server *without unlagged* as being a human, you can't dodge a goon with 30- ping; you can only run away and die (unless we are talking about a very noob goon). However, I suppose you never played with such ping, or are forgetting the times you did.
Computer[SU] posted something about this which he unfortunately deleted right after. Unfortunately because i agreed fully with Computer[SU] comment there.
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One thing I hate about unlagged is that both humans and aliens have much higher accuracy % (well it's the idea : P). It's no fun when most of the players just hit all the time and fights end up quick, dodgeing is harder and some amazing survivals and long fights happen less frequently. Quick/less surprising fights are just more boring. For me, unlagged removes a big part of the *tremulous* feeling.
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Computer[SU] posted something about this which he unfortunately deleted right after. Unfortunately because i agreed fully with Computer[SU] comment there.
Yeah, I did delete part because I didn't realize how long the thread was and I was commenting on a post that was in the middle. NP.
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One thing I hate about unlagged is that both humans and aliens have much higher accuracy % (well it's the idea : P).
Not sure if it has higher accuracy, good players have not much problems with adapting to higher pings. However it becomes harder to survive when you rely on predicting your opponents moves, which is vital for surving on close combat dodging. So the conclusion is exactly how you said it, the game has less close combat dodge dances and more rush and hunt tactics due to unlagged. I will not go into a discussion about which of the play style is more leet. Different people like the game for different reasons, and depending on your play style Unlagged has greater or less impact on your game. And for those that love dancing with goons it will be a great miss if Unlagged becomes the standard. However I am open for giving more time for trying to to tweak values as Jal suggested so that Unlagged has less of its downside.
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[A],
When you play with 200+ ping on a server *without unlagged* as being a human, you can't dodge a goon with 30- ping; you can only run away and die (unless we are talking about a very noob goon). However, I suppose you never played with such ping, or are forgetting the times you did.
So, I'm guessing you prefer the unlagged alternative. Where the laggy human sees the goon as stationary in a lag spike and takes advantage of this occurance by filling him full of whatever ammunition he has. It doesn't make a bit of difference whether the goon dodged or not. The human hit the goon on his screen so suddenly that's the reality for everyone who doesn't have some crazy ping. Why exactly should the higher pingers get to shoot at false target positions and yet hit?
Oh, and I'd just like to point out that the poll is currently at 22 - 22. The fact that exactly half of the people so far aren't happy with unlagged I think deserves attention. This is NOT the kind of statistic which should have people incorperate unlagged in it's present form as an unconditional factor.
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Ah, you forget something, the people who are supporting unlagged with the strongest convictions are not the people who play with 200 ping ... All that kind of people who say that unlagged is "so cool", they need it to play with 40 ping !!!!!
When i m playing with more than 20 ping, i feel the lag and i don't hit what i m aiming. But with unlagged it's different, i can now good play with 40 ping !
It's more less what said me the strongest partisan of unlagged in my community.
Excuse me but when i read that i just think ... "Nub"
Maybe unlagged could be used to make possible matches between 2 continents ... But to use unlagged between members of a same country or continent is just a joke and a noob way.
"ONOZ 70 PING, I NEED MY UNLAGGEDZZZZZ"
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The level of stubborn headedness in this thread is beyond belief.
Nothing useful is ever going to come of this thread, so I think it should be locked, and maybe stuck, as an example of how not to have a debate.
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The level of stubborn headedness in this thread is beyond belief.
Nothing useful is ever going to come of this thread, so I think it should be locked, and maybe stuck, as an example of how not to have a debate.
+1
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I'd recommend to use a pre-stepping method for Lucy balls (spawn the lucy shot forward by the compensation latency).
Wouldn't this give a player less time to dodge a lucy from a high pinger than a lucy from a low pinger? On the other hand a lucy may be slow enough for not making much difference. Different though with pulse, where you could have been pulsed before you see the energy bolt leave the weapon.
Yes, the first lucy-ball step would be bigger for high pingers. But, from our tests, we found this is the method that feels more natural for rockets, and lucy is basically a very slow rocket, so it should be even better for it.
Antilag systems are basically trading systems after all. They remove the latency from one place just to put it at a harmless one. This is also why it should never compensate for more than 150 pings. The artifacts produced at the other side of the trade become bigger than the beneficts.
And with the lucy, what happens when you stand exactly infront of the lucy weapon. Would the energy bolt spawn behind you?
Well, no, you cast a trace from the player to the spawning position. Q3 already does this, it just needs to change the distance by the latency compensation one.
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Then we can just ignore these losers who dont understand it and are just pissed they lost there unfair advantage.
The level of stubborn headedness in this thread is beyond belief.
Nothing useful is ever going to come of this thread, so I think it should be locked, and maybe stuck, as an example of how not to have a debate.
You sure that your way of debating is how everything else would go better?
As I understand debating, its about trying to understand what the point of the other is before dismissing or dissing it. You have provided no additional understanding to the matter nor seem to have a notion what the problem we have with unlagged is about. Some more knowledgeable do recognize that problem as a problem and have
- offered solutions in how to make the downside have less of an impact on current play styles
- offered different perspectives on how to weigh the downside vs its benefits
With those that have contributed in a constructive way (and this is not only by a just a view posters) I think the discussion is quite fruitful. Those that can only comment in the way "you are dumb cause i like this better" should be simply ignored, unlike I am doing right now with this post. And I don't mean only you in particular, but all that have your line of argumentation on both sides of the Unlagged issue.
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Unlagged is always a good thing, but... players need to patient. Implementing the system is easy, but fine tunning it so it really feels right requires quite a time.
Also, the unlagged implementation has to be restricted. The goal is not making people with 300 ping play as in LAN. It is to help people with already decent pings and tie the playing field for them. The backwards reconciliation needs to be limited to a max or 100/150 latency to prevent very high pingers producing glitches on low pingers. People trying to play with bigger pings are already in too bad conditions to bother helping them further than removing 100 from their delay.
there was a patch to limit how far back unlagged would rewind time to calculate if you hit, but i think that limiting the ping of players is the job of sv_maxping.
I should say, to explain why I talk like this: I implemented the antilag system in Warsow. It's not an unlagged port. I did it from scratch, and didn't even read unlagged docs, but it's the same concept. So I have experience. Writting it was easy and didn't take more than a few days. It took 3 Warsow releases until the fine tunning took it to how it feels now, which is the first one I consider feeling "right".
the backward reconcilliation was implemented from scratch by tjw (and possibly inspired by code in etpub). he decided against including the client prediction part (so weapon firing animations (and blood squirts) play instantly instead of waiting for the event from the server), which may be a big part of why people think it doesn't "feel" right.
I must add. I played in a Trem server with unlagged. I think it was a balance mod server, and was quite a while ago. It didn't feel good at all, but the system was working. It will take quite some time to reach ET-like levels, but it's just a matter of keeping evolving it.
Trem is harder to fine-tune than ET, tho. It's more similar to Warsow's difficulty (ET is all bullets, which are the easiest to antilag). I'll make some recommendations based on my experience. Feel free to ignore the following :)
- Reconciliating method is not always good for projectiles, specially those with splash damage. I'd recommend to use a pre-stepping method for Lucy balls (spawn the lucy shot forward by the compensation latency).
only hitscan weapons are backward reconciled for hittests, projectiles are nudged forward to their real position client side, but that doesn't actually affect gameplay (well, it lets you dodge much more easily, but that's not what i meant)
- But sometimes it does work good for the fast flying ones without splashdamage. I'd backwards reconciliate pulse rifle.
If you backwards reconciliate a projectile, it is a good idea to hack it's position forward by the latency only for the transmission, so the other clients see it in the position which will damage them. This projectile offseting would require to modify the entity writting routine, tho, so it can't be mod based.
i think backward reconciling any projectiles is a bad idea (for the same reason Neil decided against it in q3 unlagged)
- Try to keep the latency compensation values smooth, at both client and server. Some averaging of the last ones does help to achieve a consistant feeling.
do you mean for backward reconcilliation? the server doesn't deal with latencies directly, it uses ucmd->attacktime (i think that's the variable name anyway, been a while since i messed with it). for projectile nudge i hijacked the 2 second floating average of the lagometer.
- Don't hesitate to add an arbitrary nudge cvar on the server side to fine tune the antilag. Latency precission is impossible, and some manual tunning may end up being the only way. Also, perfect antilag may end up feeling like you must shoot after the enemy to hit (Q3 engine has a delay even on listen server), so the server may need to put back this delay to feel natural.
once again, because ucmd->attacktime is used, this shouldn't make a difference.
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Unlagged is always a good thing, but... players need to patient. Implementing the system is easy, but fine tunning it so it really feels right requires quite a time.
Also, the unlagged implementation has to be restricted. The goal is not making people with 300 ping play as in LAN. It is to help people with already decent pings and tie the playing field for them. The backwards reconciliation needs to be limited to a max or 100/150 latency to prevent very high pingers producing glitches on low pingers. People trying to play with bigger pings are already in too bad conditions to bother helping them further than removing 100 from their delay.
there was a patch to limit how far back unlagged would rewind time to calculate if you hit, but i think that limiting the ping of players is the job of sv_maxping.
Aren't backwards reconciliation limit and limiting the ping two completely unrelated limits as long as maxping > maxreconciliation? When i understand correctly there is already a maxreconciliation, only that without the patch you mentioned its not changeable.
the server only keeps player positions for 500ms, nothing it can do nothing beyond that.
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- Try to keep the latency compensation values smooth, at both client and server. Some averaging of the last ones does help to achieve a consistant feeling.
do you mean for backward reconcilliation? the server doesn't deal with latencies directly, it uses ucmd->attacktime (i think that's the variable name anyway, been a while since i messed with it). for projectile nudge i hijacked the 2 second floating average of the lagometer.
- Don't hesitate to add an arbitrary nudge cvar on the server side to fine tune the antilag. Latency precission is impossible, and some manual tunning may end up being the only way. Also, perfect antilag may end up feeling like you must shoot after the enemy to hit (Q3 engine has a delay even on listen server), so the server may need to put back this delay to feel natural.
once again, because ucmd->attacktime is used, this shouldn't make a difference.
Well, It's the same concept, but I don't know how exactly the implementation in Q3 handles transmitting the compensation times. What I do is sending the timestamp of each snap to the client and run a virtual server time in the client (Q3 does this too, I remember seeing it in the source). This is one smoothing spot. Each snap might have a small jump at updating the virtual server time with the new timestamp caused by ping spikes, so it's good to smooth between the last few ones.
The user command then returns the (updated) virtual server time. The server finds how much time has past between the timestamp in the user command and the current time. This is the second smoothing point between the last few ones.
Minor ping spikes add small time jumps at those both spots. Allowing the jumps to happen is theorically more precise (why smooth it if you have the correct timestamps?), but I found that it's better to have the lacency compensation constant than precise. The feeling is much better. I can't give an objetive reason on why choosing one over the other, both options make the same sense, my opinion is merely based on trying them.
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Aren't backwards reconciliation limit and limiting the ping two completely unrelated limits as long as maxping > maxreconciliation? When i understand correctly there is already a maxreconciliation, only that without the patch you mentioned its not changeable.
i'm arguing that if maxreconcilliation < maxping, then it is very difficult for ping > maxreconcilliation to hit anything, because not only are they forced to lead, but they have no way of determining how much they should lead (ping was a rough indicator before), so maxping should always be < maxreconcilliation.
edit: oops missquote.
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Would it be possible to have it a client option?
So I can have my shots unlagged, and other can choose not to.
Then everyone is happy.
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That won't solve it. What they complaint is not about their shots being unlagged, but about getting yours unlagged ;)
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Not sure if it has higher accuracy, good players have not much problems with adapting to higher pings. However it becomes harder to survive when you rely on predicting your opponents moves, which is vital for surving on close combat dodging. So the conclusion is exactly how you said it, the game has less close combat dodge dances and more rush and hunt tactics due to unlagged. I will not go into a discussion about which of the play style is more leet. Different people like the game for different reasons, and depending on your play style Unlagged has greater or less impact on your game. And for those that love dancing with goons it will be a great miss if Unlagged becomes the standard. However I am open for giving more time for trying to to tweak values as Jal suggested so that Unlagged has less of its downside.
Not stopping you from dancing with goons. In fact, the shottie vs goon face off is pretty close either way with Unlagged. There have been a lot more dead goons (I play Humans too) with Unlagged.
If you take away the ping differences, most of you aren't that good at dodging.
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"So yer an unlagged lover, boy? I ain't gonna have 'at filthy shit in my house, no sir, s'you can just go on an' pack yer things."
...
"I said scoot yer fool ass up on ou' the door, boy, 'fore I go an' fetch ol' Bessie from o'er the fireplace. G'wan, GIT!"
// Should've slept better last night. :-?
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Why exactly should the higher pingers get to shoot at false target positions and yet hit?
I haven't yet had an answer, so- being the stubborn fellow I am -I'm repeating it in case doing so get's me one. =)
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I haven't yet had an answer, so- being the stubborn fellow I am -I'm repeating it in case doing so get's me one. =)
Why shouldn't they? They have no way of knowing where the "true" target positions are. If they hit you a bunch, it's because their accuracy is good, even if the place they are hitting accurately isn't actually where you are. Why not reward them?
Also Nux I hate you because your arguments are too good, and I may at some point actually have to change my opinion >:(
please suck more for the purposes of inflating my ego.
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Why exactly should the higher pingers get to shoot at false target positions and yet hit?
I haven't yet had an answer, so- being the stubborn fellow I am -I'm repeating it in case doing so get's me one. =)
why should low ping players have a huge advantage over medium ping players? even if there were enough servers in all areas that everyone could play with 20 ping, and enough players to play on those servers, and none of those servers had game-ruining patches like /share and rampage or huge playercounts. then it's still unreasonable to ask players to not play with people they know on servers where they ping reasonably well (under 100). as much as people complain about unlagged, with reasonable pings lack of unlagged gives a huge advantage to the guy who lives next to the data center than unlagged gives to a guy who pings 80 to the server (which is almost none compared to the lpb)
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That won't solve it. What they complaint is not about their shots being unlagged, but about getting yours unlagged ;)
Actually that is not what my complaint is about, though i can't talk for the other objectors. The idea itself about making accurate shots count even in a high ping situation is applaudable by all. It's the sideeffects which give me a headache.
why should low ping players have a huge advantage over medium ping players?
My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger or for that matter the movement of an unlagged-off high pinger. Reasons for this have been given in several posts in this thread. To put 100 of lines of explanation in a nutshell: The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move. Without Unlagged I can react to his move, with Unlagged I cannot, or only to late. To put it even simpler, I can get shot by a player before i see that he turns around to face me when he was standing with his back to me. The game becomes random for me even though its I that has the low ping.
As for the dancing with goons, maybe you are right, maybe not, though you haven't explained your point and only stated it. In my view dancing with goons becomes harder because I may be pounced by a goon i never saw pouncing. With an Unlagged-OFF opponent with high ping i have the same time to dodge that pounce than i have with a lowpinger since with Unlagged-OFF he has to hit me in the servers observation of time, which is close to mine when my ping is low.
So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.
Maybe discussions about this are obsolete as some have stated and we will never understand each others point. If that is the case we simply ask you to keep it an option and not make it a standard.
Atleast I think i observed that some Unlagged servers have lowered their maxping value, which again implies there is a problem with high lag and unlagged. Maybe this is also just a misinterpretation of mine. I think its a pitty cause this now makes it impossible for me to watch Zubs scrims, though i liked every game i saw them playing. Maybe its also just due to my bad connection today.
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That won't solve it. What they complaint is not about their shots being unlagged, but about getting yours unlagged ;)
Actually that is not what my complaint is about, though i can't talk for the other objectors.
why should low ping players have a huge advantage over medium ping players?
My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger or for that matter the movement of an unlagged-off high pinger. Reasons for this have been given in several posts in this thread. To put 100 of lines of explanation in a nutshell: The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move. Without Unlagged I can react to his move, with Unlagged I cannot, or only to late. To put it even simpler, I can get shot by a player before i see that he turns around to face me when he was standing with his back to me. The game becomes random for me even though its I that has the low ping.
As for the dancing with goons, maybe you are right, maybe not, though you haven't explained your point and only stated it. In my view dancing with goons becomes harder because I may be pounced by a goon i never saw pouncing. With an Unlagged-OFF opponent with high ping i have the same time to dodge that pounce than i have with a lowpinger since with Unlagged-OFF he has to hit me in the servers observation of time, which is close to mine of my ping is low.
So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.
Maybe discussions about this are obsolete as some have stated and we will never understand each others point. If that is the case we simply ask you to keep it an option and not make it a standard.
Atleast I think i observed that some Unlagged servers have lowered their maxping value, which again implies there is a problem with high lag and unlagged. Maybe this is also just a misinterpretation of mine. I think its a pitty cause this now makes it impossible for me to watch Zubs scrims, though i liked every game i saw them playing.
Adjusting the Unlagged values doesn't mean Unlagged has a problem. That's like saying adjusting your aim means you have a problem.
You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger. If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?
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You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger. If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?
I hope I am not misunderstanding you. Are you saying to make the game more fair for high pingers the way to go is to change the game in such a way that a lowpinger suffers equally from the high pingers lag as the high pinger himself?
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You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger. If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?
I hope I am not misunderstanding you. Are you saying to make the game more fair for high pingers the way to go is to change the game in such a way that a lowpinger suffers equally from the high pingers lag as the high pinger himself?
Unlagged doesn't affect movement, right?
So, you "couldn't" see them regardless, right? What are you complaining about? Ping or not having A-1 top notch servers and connections provided for everyone all the time?
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Unlagged doesn't affect movement, right?
So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.
Unlagged increases the discrepancy between the shots that count for a high pinger and the movements a low pinger sees the high pinger do. So in that regards it does affect movement.
So, you "couldn't" see them regardless, right?
I would have seen him in my/servers time and initiate moves before I see him taking a shot/pounce at me. Or to be more precise, i still see him do that move that leads in killing me, but after it has been determined that I am dead. So being able to choose my moves based on what I "can" see does make a difference.
What are you complaining about? Ping or not having A-1 top notch servers and connections provided for everyone all the time?
No, my previous post explains what i am complaining about.
My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger (on an Unlagged server [sig]).....even though its I that has the low ping.
its a pitty you don't give a straight answer, it would make things a lot easier for me to understand. As i said in a previous post, I am not fighting to have right and you wrong, I am trying to understand your point and i am trying to explain my point. I am also not suggesting to throw away Unlagged as I said in yet another post in this thread. There are servers where it may make sense. We merely ask not to make it standard since on the servers we play we don't have a problem with what I think Unlagged tries to fix. All we hear is "deal with it". I have talked to some european clans about this, and none, not even one wants Unlagged. I have talked to some server operators, none of them wants to have it. Atleast not in the way it is implemented now.
So when some of you can only say "deal with it", but cannot either confirm nor rebut the concerns we have with the current implementation of Unlagged, I'd say we have a communication problem.
You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger. If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?
So, are you saying to make the game more fair for high pingers the way to go is to change the game in such a way that a lowpinger suffers equally from the high pingers lag as the high pinger himself?
If this would really be the case, than my assumptions about what Unlagged was supposed to be doing are completely wrong and I can save my time trying to explain a point that Unlagged is actually not trying to fix.
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My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger or for that matter the movement of an unlagged-off high pinger. Reasons for this have been given in several posts in this thread. To put 100 of lines of explanation in a nutshell: The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move. Without Unlagged I can react to his move, with Unlagged I cannot, or only to late.
Actually, this is not entirely true. You, as a low pinger, see him before he sees you, cause the world update reaches you much before him. The true part is that you start getting the impacts later, so if you don't react until you get the first impact, you probably have a bunch of other impacts already hit that will come to you after you hide. This causes the impression of unfair advantage for the high pinger. Still, I agree that this is a very disgusting feeling and has to be prevented by never allowing more that 150 ms compensation.
I said it before. Antilag is not for fixing 250 pingers, these are a lost cause. It is for giving the best playing experience to 40-100 pingers, which are the huge majority, and it really does a wonderful job for them.
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The unlagged delay patch (http://wraths.dyndns.org/games/tremulous/patches/svn901/033.azrael.unlagged_max_delay_in_ms.patch) offer a limited unlagged : you can set max unlagged recovered delay. With unlagged base patch, it's 1000, so everyone, even with 500 ping can lost them lag with unlagged. It's with this effect we can see 4km goon chomp, or crazy MD kills under walls.
set g_unlagged to 200 ms, and nobody gain more than about 150 ping with unlagged, so a guy with 500 ping have same lag bonus than a guy with 150. This patch is activated on tHc Public server, and reduce massivly unlagged crazy effects.
You can too set g_unlagged to a very low value, like 30ms, to have sensations of unlagged off, with just a little lag help
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Unlagged doesn't affect movement, right?
So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.
Unlagged increases the discrepancy between the shots that count for a high pinger and the movements a low pinger sees the high pinger do. So in that regards it does affect movement.
You contradict yourself so hard, It hurts me.
I've already explained Unlagged a million and one times. The answer doesn't get any straighter. If you are lagging, you are still lagging. If you have low ping, you still have the advantage in every way. The only problem for you is that people's shots connect when they make them.
You are used to WYSIWYG. But like I said before it, its like trying to dodge a bullet. You can't see what you are dodging because a hit scan weapon is faster. Even if you can see where someone is aiming, their shot is instant and can fly faster than you can dodge. Using visual clues is only a rough indication of where to dodge.
The idea of dodging is a lot more tactical (thought based) than 'Move now!' The only reason why you are successful at dodging right now is because you are used to having a few milliseconds worth of a grace period. Now you are dodging in a virtual 0 ping situation and you can't handle it. Good dodgers are still good dodgers, its that the attackers are more consistent.
Actually, you are used to WYSIWYG as long as everyone else doesn't get WYSIWYG. I'll tell you why I like Unlagged. If I ht something on my screen, I hit it. There is a lot more guessing, leading, and unreliable information with traditional servers for everyone. Unlagged just removes the guessing for hitscan weapons and attacks.
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The only problem for you is that people's shots connect when they make them.
The idea itself about making accurate shots count even in a high ping situation is applaudable by all. It's the sideeffects which give me a headache.
You can't see what you are dodging because a hit scan weapon is faster.
It's is not about dodging a hit scan bullet.
Actually, this is not entirely true. You, as a low pinger, see him before he sees you, cause the world update reaches you much before him.
Is this true, so when a high pinger walks around the corner, I see him before he sees me? Same with turns, when a high pinger turns 180° I see him turned before he sees himself turned (and therefor sees me)?
If this is the case, I have less of a problem with Unlagged. Thanks for clearing that up. Values between 40-100 is also something I could live with.
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Is this true, so when a high pinger walks around the corner, I see him before he sees me? Same with turns, when a high pinger turns 180° I see him turned before he sees himself turned (and therefor sees me)?
What happens without Unlagged? Who will see who first?
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To allow people to see my standpoint in a bite-sized package, I'll just summarise a few points I've made in HUGE pieces of text previously. I wouldn't want anyone but the most skilled readers to have to endure such large amounts of text >.<.
In a nutshell, I question how fair it is for a higher pinger to be able to shoot and hit a position that I have already dodged away from. My dodging skills don't amount to anything when the higher-pinger views me as stationary for some amount of time. Though you can limit this effect by reducing the amount of time allowed for reconciliation or even limiting the max-ping, this frustrates those who are trained fast-reacters and see small reconciliations as large events in their conception-time.
Also Nux I hate you because your arguments are too good, and I may at some point actually have to change my opinion >:(
please suck more for the purposes of inflating my ego.
xD Thank you benmachine. Just remember, it doesn't matter how good my arguments are: Nux STILL Sux. =)
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1
....The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move....
...You, as a low pinger, see him before he sees you, cause the world update reaches you much before him.
2Is this true, so when a high pinger walks around the corner, I see him before he sees me? Same with turns, when a high pinger turns 180° I see him turned before he sees himself turned (and therefor sees me)?
What happens without Unlagged? Who will see who first?
What you see is independent of Unlagged ON/OFF. I was just repeating jal's statement (1)without much reflection. However if what jal says is true, my assumptions about Unlagged are false. So i was just looking for confirmation on the point jal said in post 1.
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in all cases pretty much, the person who is moving around the corner will see the other first regardless of ping because of player prediction (by roughly half the sum of their pings i think). the player moving around the corner has the advantage with pings close to each other, regardless of unlagged. if there's a noticable difference in ping (20 vs 120), then the low ping player gets the first shot, and if it's a killing blow the only shot, because even if you get the perfect headshot on a 96 hp human, you only get to use unlagged if you were alive by the time the server got your message.
edit: before tremulous i played et, and even with similar antilag, i always felt at a huge disadvantage above 120 ping, i don't see why people all of a sudden think that very similar code gives high pingers any kind of advantage.
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So suppose the low-pinger doesn't kill the dretch, but also dodges quickly out of the way. The high-pinging dretch hasn't recieved the information that he dodged yet and kills the low-pinger in a place he no longer is at, on his screen.
I'm not saying the laggy guy still doesn't have disadvantages, I'm just calling attention to the unfairness to low-pingers who do dodge yet die anyway. Sometimes they don't even get chance to dodge like in my 'goon chomping across the room' example. I got the information about my death without ever knowing the events that led up to it. Without unlagged, though I would still see him warping and this would make it hard for me to aim at him, at least I know that if I dodge away from where he's about to attack he will miss. With unlagged I have to hope that he registered my dodge, else my dodging is pointless.
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you only get to use unlagged if you were alive by the time the server got your message.
Actually i find this statement very interesting.
Ok, so when i understand what you are saying Unlagged works in the following way:
Opponent has 200 ms ping (package takes 100ms).
He shoots me and assuming he hits me in his view.
Server gets the shot 100ms later and would rollback my position 100ms to determine if it was a hit.
In this time I have 100ms time to kill the opponent.
If the message of me killing him arrives at the server before his shot gets unrolled, I get the kill and not him though he shot before me?
I was assuming that Unlagged would determine that he shot first in real time and so he would get the kill and my hit message would get discarded.
Assuming that I have understood right, your little comment helped me a great deal in understanding unlagged better.
This would also imply that for fighting a high pinger on an Unlagged server the best strategie is to try to get the other killed before his decisive shot gets unrolled.
This also implies that in a fight where two are shooting at each other a high ping would still work in once disadvantage.
Still remains that if I however try not to kill him and try to move instead for making it hard for him to hit me, I would get killed as if i would have never moved.
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Actually i find this statement very interesting.
Ok, so when i understand what you are saying Unlagged works in the following way:
Opponent has 200 ms ping (package takes 100ms).
He shoots me and assuming he hits me in his view.
Server gets the shot 100ms later and would rollback my position 100ms to determine if it was a hit.
In this time I have 100ms time to kill the opponent.
If the message of me killing him arrives at the server before his shot gets unrolled, I get the kill and not him though he shot before me?
I was assuming that Unlagged would determine that he shot first in real time and so he would get the kill and my hit message would get discarded.
Assuming that I have understood right, your little comment helped me a great deal in understanding unlagged better.
This would also imply that for fighting a high pinger on an Unlagged server the best strategie is to try to get the other killed before his decisive shot gets unrolled.
This also implies that in a fight where two are shooting at each other a high ping would still work in once disadvantage.
Still remains that if I however try not to kill him and try to move instead for making it hard for him to hit me, I would get killed as if i would have never moved.
You really reading too much into all this.
The best strategy is 'Kill him before he kills you'. I don't think Unlagged changes this, outside of pure theory about getting shot at then killing someone in 1ms before they get the update. Which is laughable as a strategy.
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May I make one remark? You said unlagged does not affect movement, but movement is a very important part of an aliens attack. Could you clarify on the effects of it as you see it?
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outside of pure theory about getting shot at then killing someone in 1ms before they get the update. Which is laughable as a strategy.
I was laughing too when i saw the consequences :D
This beside the fact that the consequences from Unlagged were made more clear to me by that statement quoted.
And it's not 1ms, but the difference between both pings which can be quite a lot when the difference is high.
So to sum things up:
- Without Unlagged and a low ping the game is close to WISIWYG.
- With high ping but without Unlagged the game is far away from WISIWYG
- With high ping and with Unlagged dealing with a low ping player the game becomes a bit more WISIWYGy only what aiming is concerned.
- With low ping, Unlagged and dealing with a high ping player the game becomes less WISIWYGy
So basically we are discussing if the game should have less WISIWYGiness for all, as to narrow the gab between high pingers and low pingers.
Conclusion: this is a matter of taste and preferences
and this in return means that it should remain a decision of server operators if they use it or not. I disagree with those that say that players that favor Unlagged suck, and I disagree with those that say that those not liking Unlagged suck. But I am agreeing with myself that personally I like the game to be as WISIWYGy as possible and that this is reflected by my choice of servers I play on.
We all savvy?
:D
ps: Playing amongst lowpingers my dodging is fine :D
pps: I thank those that showed knowledge and tried to share this in their best way possible.
ppps: This doesn't mean the discussion is over, I still find it highy interesting to learn things I didn't know about
And a last thing - a question added to survivors question:
For humans we know it are the hitscan weapons. But which of the alien techniques are being Unlagged, and which remain unaffected (xept barps) by Unlagged?
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When I have a very low ping and so do you, WISIWYST (What I See Is What You See Too). When you have lag, WYSINWYG (What You See Is Not What You Get). When you have that lag, but unlagged is running, WYSIWIG (What You See Is What I Get).
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Unlagged is probably the single reason I find myself playing tremulous less and less. When I find myself taking damage on the safe side of a wall, something is wrong. When I find myself missing others with twice the ping, something is seriously wrong. Sorry. I've been playing trem for three years now, and unlagged is the worst modification added to it.
Unlagged = elementary school philosophy of punishing the whole class for Johnny Rottenping's misbehaviour or misfortune.
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Conclusion: this is a matter of taste and preferences
Yes, some people prefer an artificial advantage that gives others a disadvantage.
Some prefer an level as possible playing field.
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Yes, some people prefer an artificial advantage that gives others a disadvantage.
Unlagged = elementary school philosophy of punishing the whole class for Johnny Rottenping's misbehaviour or misfortune.
When you put these two quotes together, I have to laugh very loud :D
Kind of made my day.
misfortune For those that have to play with a ping above 100 or 200, they are misfortunate and it's good there are servers they can play. For those that can choose servers with a ping of 2-100 should do so unless they like to make it a lil harder on them selfs and others. For those that play with <100 ping there is no misfortune cause it is actually very easy to compansate your shots for this lag.
artificial Net latencies are not artificial, its the nature of the internet. Deal with it (to quote some of you :-D ). Taking away the WISIWYGiness (to quote you) for low pingers to even up playingfield sound a lot more artificial in my eyes. What you are saying is like saying that we all should use crutches to even up playingfield for those that broke their leg.
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I think people missunderstands who beneficts of antilag. When properly set up, very low pingers (below 40) get just the same thing as now, from there to ping 100 get the biggest improvement (yes, people with 40 ping are beneficted by antilag too). People pinging above 100 will pretty much have the same disadvantage with or without antilag (but can cause feedback glitches on others if antilag is not limited).
I was a Q2 and Q3 player, so I'm used to guess the real player position when aiming. I do have pings around 60 most of the times. Since I played ET, I think it's stupid to keep games without antilag. The playing experience is simply superior. It's not even about balancing the playing field, it's about improving the experience for most people.
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Firstly, I think it's only kind I mention that "Benefict" isn't a word. I think you mean "Benefit".
Secondly, since you seem to be missing my point, I'll repeat it. Though a well defined reconciliation shouldn't affect low-pingers, it still does so because the high pingers can shoot them in places they aren't. This makes the game alot less enjoyable for the low-pinger who now can't dodge shots that are made at him by a high-pinger in a lag spike. All he gets is the information that he was killed on the high-pingers computer. What the high-pinger sees the low-pingers movements as do not correctly portray his actual movements, so why should he be allowed to attack this false image and yet kill him in the low-pingers reality too?
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I think people missunderstands who beneficts of antilag. When properly set up, very low pingers (below 40) get just the same thing as now, from there to ping 100 get the biggest improvement (yes, people with 40 ping are beneficted by antilag too). People pinging above 100 will pretty much have the same disadvantage with or without antilag (but can cause feedback glitches on others if antilag is not limited).
I was a Q2 and Q3 player, so I'm used to guess the real player position when aiming. I do have pings around 60 most of the times. Since I played ET, I think it's stupid to keep games without antilag. The playing experience is simply superior. It's not even about balancing the playing field, it's about improving the experience for most people.
I am not sure where our problem is, you don't seem to contradict what we are saying nor does it seem that we contradict what you are saying. Only the focus of our emphasis seem to differ.
I agree that for a 40ms pinger playing on a server with other 40ms pingers does not make much of a difference, I also agree with you that for players with 100ms or above do benefit from Unlagged. I think Survivors question on the previous page is very interesting and I am curious about your answer to that. The explanation that all give in favor of Unlagged only focus on aim and shots, but Trem is a lot more than just aim and shoot, especially for aliens, who have to rely on movement and not aim and shoot. When having to rely on your movements in contrast to the opponents movement what you see does matter, since this is what you base your movements on. I am completely not sure you can compare Tremulous with ET or any other rifle-vs-rifle game (that is also why i like tremulous a lot more than those other games, kudos to the Tremulous devs for that).
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I think people missunderstands who beneficts of antilag. When properly set up, very low pingers (below 40) get just the same thing as now, from there to ping 100 get the biggest improvement (yes, people with 40 ping are beneficted by antilag too). People pinging above 100 will pretty much have the same disadvantage with or without antilag (but can cause feedback glitches on others if antilag is not limited).
I was a Q2 and Q3 player, so I'm used to guess the real player position when aiming. I do have pings around 60 most of the times. Since I played ET, I think it's stupid to keep games without antilag. The playing experience is simply superior. It's not even about balancing the playing field, it's about improving the experience for most people.
I am not sure where our problem is, you don't seem to contradict what we are saying nor does it seem that we contradict what you are saying. Only the focus of our emphasis seem to differ.
I agree that for a 40ms pinger playing on a server with other 40ms pingers does not make much of a difference, I also agree with you that for players with 100ms or above do benefit from Unlagged. I think Survivors question on the previous page is very interesting and I am curious about your answer to that. The explanation that all give in favor of Unlagged only focus on aim and shots, but Trem is a lot more than just aim and shoot, especially for aliens, who have to rely on movement and not aim and shoot. When having to rely on your movements in contrast to the opponents movement what you see does matter, since this is what you base your movements on. I am completely not sure you can compare Tremulous with ET or any other rifle-vs-rifle game (that is also why i like tremulous a lot more than those other games, kudos to the Tremulous devs for that).
if movement is that critical, then why don't you play with cg_nopredict 1? it has at least as much effect on your complaints as unlagged does (and on servers without an updated cgame it can give quite an fps boost), but then not only do you have to lead other players, you also have to lead yourself...
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Secondly, since you seem to be missing my point, I'll repeat it. Though a well defined reconciliation shouldn't affect low-pingers, it still does so because the high pingers can shoot them in places they aren't.
This is a false statement. They can never shoot you at places where you aren't. They did shoot you at the place you were. You are just getting the feedback late.
I am not sure where our problem is, you don't seem to contradict what we are saying nor does it seem that we contradict what you are saying. Only the focus of our emphasis seem to differ.
I agree that for a 40ms pinger playing on a server with other 40ms pingers does not make much of a difference, I also agree with you that for players with 100ms or above do benefit from Unlagged.
But this is not what I'm saying! What I say is that people with pings below 100 are the ones who benefit more of antilag. Below, not above.
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I'm not sure why you're not getting this =/ The frustration comes from me having dodged; him- having not received the information that I have dodged -slashing the out-dated version of me (a version that no longer corresponds with my perspective); him killing me on his screen and unlagged making this so on my screen. I could have fallen a great distance away from their attack from my view-point and yet he still gets the kill.
If I have the lowest ping then my viewpoint would be recieved by the server first. I'd be receiving information from the server first. My view-point would be the most consistent if it weren't for unlagged constantly redefining what happened. So as I have said very early on in this discussion, all unlagged is doing is making all the low-pingers view-points less consistent and all the high-pinging viewpoints true for everyone- no matter whether what they see of their enemies is near to entirely based off predictions of their motion. I could be trying to walk through a wall on their screen yet they can shoot at the silly version of me and hit.
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I'm not sure why you're not getting this =/ The frustration comes from me having dodged; him- having not received the information that I have dodged -slashing the out-dated version of me (a version that no longer corresponds with my perspective); him killing me on his screen and unlagged making this so on my screen. I could have fallen a great distance away from their attack from my view-point and yet he still gets the kill.
but you can't dodge, it's hitscan. the only thing you can do is guess when and where he will attack and avoid that spot at that time, unlagged doesn't change this, it only (very slightly) offsets the position and time that this should happen.
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if movement is that critical, then why don't you play with cg_nopredict 1? it has at least as much effect on your complaints as unlagged does
Well, to hell then with cg_nopredict 0 :D
actually no idea what that does or how it effects movement. Will try to look it up :D
But as I understand from a quick peek, cg_nopredict only effects your client locally, but does not effect the playability for other players on the same server.
This is a false statement. They can never shoot you at places where you aren't. They did shoot you at the place you were.
If i would try to be pedantic, I'd say where you were is not where you are, so it would be a true statement:D
But to be more helpful I would say that it cannot be said like that without a clear definition about is and was, since with high ping these terms seem a bit fuzzy or don't seem to match with the different perspectives we are having.
You are just getting the feedback late.
using the same logic you can also say that the high pinger got the feedback late of the move of the opponent. We are just partly shifting the effects of high ping around from the high pinger to the low pinger and not making it disappear.
But this is not what I'm saying! What I say is that people with pings below 100 are the ones who benefit more of antilag. Below, not above.
Ok, so I am getting it right that people above 100ms don't benefit as much from Unlagged (antilag) as those below 100ms? But why would you need Unlagged with a ping below 100ms? From the post of others I understood that Unlagged is to make the game more playable for people with a much higher ping than that, for those that do not have a server close to their location.
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People who speak of hitscan weapons as some god-like unstoppable force that cannot be dodged, must not be used to dodging on low-ping servers. Dodging is more than seeing a projectile and moving yourself out of the way. It's keeping the enemy on their toes and forcing them to move their mouse as much as possible. When there's a dretch at your feet, you have 4 hp and 3 shots left in your massdriver, aiming is not so easy. All the small changes in movement that are so easy to account for at a distance become too big to accourately account for at close distance. You can still try to predict where they'll go but it's not so easy any more. When unlagged makes the low-pinging dretch move in a straight line for a second on the high-pinging humans screen, the human is given an opportunity to kill the dretch he never would have had without it. Without unlagged, the high-pinger would shoot at the predicited position of me and quite rightly miss, for it's only the prediction that decided I was there- not me.
I'll stress, the inconsistent world- which is unavoidable when high-pings are concerned -is not preferable, but is tolerable if you have no alternative. The inconsistent world of lag is brought into low-pingers lives by unlagged to an extent I'm not comfortable with and so I see no reason to make unlagged an unavoidable factor. Unlagged should always be only an option and I hope that those who think otherwise are never given what they want.
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When unlagged makes the low-pinging dretch move in a straight line for a second on the high-pinging humans screen, the human is given an opportunity to kill the dretch he never would have had without it. Without unlagged, the high-pinger would shoot at the predicited position of me and quite rightly miss, for it's only the prediction that decided I was there- not me.
this is a flat out lie.
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If you could elaborate I'd appreciate it.
Assuming that my position on his screen is based off predictions, I disagree with allowing only a prediction of my position to be shot at and potentially kill me.
Assuming that there is no prediction and my position on his screen is based off past motions I have made on mine, I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.
If there is no prediction and he lags considerably, then I disagree with him being able to shoot/kill/in any way interact with the lifeless shell of an opponent that he is viewing on his screen.
No matter where my assumptions are, the concept is deplorable.
If I were to propose that being laggy were comparable to being drunk, then unlagged would be the magical booze-pixie who goes round making the world into whatever the drunk things it is. I'm sure the drunk wouldn't complain but I'm not so sure about all the people who are turned into sick fantasies of a dribbling dunkard.
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I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.
too bad, even with unlagged off this happens.
If there is no prediction and he lags considerably, then I disagree with him being able to shoot/kill/in any way interact with the lifeless shell of an opponent that he is viewing on his screen.
No matter where my assumptions are, the concept is deplorable.
there is no prediction made on other players positions, only your own. time still passes if the player has an unstable connection, if they see you not moving on their screen because of packet loss, then what they see no longer lines up with what they have to shoot for. unlagged makes no attempt to make things easier for players with bad connections (in fact if tjw ever finishes that antiwarp patch it will make things quite a bit harder), what it does do is smooth out small ping differences to make the game more even.
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People just need to actually play on Unlagged servers.
I play on D*S mostly and its far from the experience people make on this thread.
1. Opponents can't rely on last second dodging anymore.
2. I can't rely on last second dodging anymore.
That is the fairness of it.
Human vs Alien
I'm a shit load more deadly. Dretches running on the ground get swept up consistently. Marauders don't survive their getaways as much if you can aim. That's about it. The power weapons are ballistic (pulse and luci) so Unlagged doesn't really change that.
Alien vs Human
My dretch bites are more lethal. I can run past a human and connect regardless of how erratic they move.
The biggest thing with Unlagged is that Alien range seems longer. I can explain this. When playing an alien, humans backpeddling will appear in one position but are actually a few steps farther in reality. With Unlagged, alien attacks are instant damage when the Human is in range.
Without Unlagged, its hard to consistently hit a backpeddling human because they will appear in range but when I attack, the split second (milliseconds) of unreliable data will allow the human to be out my reach. You have to overcompensate by getting closer to humans.
With Unlagged, my attacks are instant. So eventhough the human was moving out my reach, they can't move faster than my instant attack and I hit them alot more.
Its the exact same with Humans' attack. An alien can be sitting on the edge of a corner. Without Unlagged, the small ping difference allows the alien to see or hear the shot go off before all the bullets connect, allow for last second evasion. Now with Unlagged, the bullets are moving truly instantly, so by the time they hear the shot, it too late. The alien can move but they are already dead. Its like with light and sound...if you hear thunder, the lighting has already struck somewhere. You have to be preemptively evading to ensure evasion.
On Dodging, everyone has to be dodging earlier and not relying on erratic motion to 'lag' up the other player's prediction. It goes both ways. Humans are a lot more accurate (if they are already accurate) and pull of a last second shot that saves them. They can spray and pray and possibly hit something. For Aliens, they can 'chomp and pray' more reliably because it will hit something. Both teams are balance by the delay in attack speed so they can't consistently spray and pray to get kills. But dodging is less run around like an idiot and more about buying time to finish people off.
If you could elaborate I'd appreciate it.
Assuming that my position on his screen is based off predictions, I disagree with allowing only a prediction of my position to be shot at and potentially kill me.
Assuming that there is no prediction and my position on his screen is based off past motions I have made on mine, I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.
If there is no prediction and he lags considerably, then I disagree with him being able to shoot/kill/in any way interact with the lifeless shell of an opponent that he is viewing on his screen.
No matter where my assumptions are, the concept is deplorable.
You don't know what you are talking about.
This is like politics when people teach the controversy. 'E-vilution is a THERORY, ITS NOT TRUE!11111111' I don't even want to respond but its so stupid I have to.
Prediction in this case means what you are screen sees. Its just to assist the client with showing more reliable information. This client is trying to fill in the gaps so the gameplay appears smoother. This kind of prediction will not allow people to kill because its pure prediction. The server code and Unlagged will not recognize shots based on this prediction.
It is getting to point where people are nitpicking the small morsels of information in thread but don't actually understand the Unlagged code. I don't know the Unlagged whole code but I know the components behind it. Please read up on it instead trying to make comments based on the shallow information given in the thread.
http://alternatefire.planetquake.gamespy.com/unlagged_faq.html
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there is no prediction made on other players positions, only your own
Unless you're refering to me in particular (in which case it's very disturbing that unlagged would single me out), 'you' and 'me' are interchangeable in such a hypothetical statement unless you set boundaries (which you haven't done).
So I can only pressume that you mean there is no prediction made on the low-pingers view. Whereas there is prediction on the high-pingers view. If so, then I will clarify that it is the high-pingers view I am talking about.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Though it can be hard to keep track of, I have only ever been responding to comments made in this thread. When speaking of the 'kills based off predictions' I'm referring to the reconciliation mentioned many times throughout this thread. I have come to understand this as an active rewriting of events based off differing views between laggy players. If this is bunk and nothing like what unlagged does, then I'd be glad to hear it.
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there is no prediction made on other players positions, only your own
Unless you're refering to me in particular (in which case it's very disturbing that unlagged would single me out), 'you' and 'me' are interchangeable in such a hypothetical statement unless you set boundaries (which you haven't done).
So I can only pressume that you mean there is no prediction made on the low-pingers view. Whereas there is prediction on the high-pingers view. If so, then I will clarify that it is the high-pingers view I am talking about.
i am talking about neither the high pinger nor the low pinger, all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.
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all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.
So can you explain exactly what happens when the dretch that I see on my screen, when I have a high ping, is shot with my massdriver when it is not in that position on his screen? Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing). If this is not true, then many supporters of unlagged have unfounded reasons for liking it.
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All it does is lagging. TERMINATE
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Assuming that my position on his screen is based off predictions, I disagree with allowing only a prediction of my position to be shot at and potentially kill me.
I have to agree with kevlarman there. You are not dead because of what the high pinger client sees, but what the server saw X ms ago, where X is the high pingers ping (or max_rollbacktime if that values is smaller than the high pingers ping). Everything is decided by the server, nothing by the client (imagine the cheat possibilities you would have if that was the case). What the server does do however is simply refuse to credit the moves you made (moves for making it harder to get hit) when he finds out that somebody shot at the place you were X ms ago.
Still it doesn't take away the validity of what you intended to say in the post before that. Any move you make to set off the aim of the high ping opponent are futile even if you did make that move well before you saw him taking an aim (not shot) at you.
Imagine that turrets would have lag. You are circling around the turret fast enuf but oh noes, you didn't know that in the turrets view it was cirlcing on the same level as you :D Or you attack a turret from behind, but oh noes, the turret was already turned around before the server knew it was turned around :D And if the turret could talk too, it would say noob dretch just walked into my barrel.
If I were to propose that being laggy were comparable to being drunk, then unlagged would be the magical booze-pixie who goes round making the world into whatever the drunk things it is. I'm sure the drunk wouldn't complain but I'm not so sure about all the people who are turned into sick fantasies of a dribbling dunkard.
Since I live in the big city, I have bad eyesight (no carrots :/ ).
But I made a patch which blurs the screen of the other clients too to even out my unfair disadvantage :D
I looked up what cg_nopredict does, but couldn't find much useful information. But from the little i did read is that with cg_nopredict 0 the client is rendering your actions without waiting for confirmation by the server about the validity of that action. if the action gets disapproved off by the server, it corrects the rendering and your position. With cg_nopredict 1 it simply waits for the confirmation. So you see yourself move 100ms later when your ping is 100ms (ping is always the time for a package to travel back and forth between client to server). cg_nopredict however is completely independent from other players, their lag or their setting. It also completely does not interfere with the decisions the server is making. It only affects your own client. Also, cg_nopredict 1 would hinder a high ping player much more than a low ping player. But I see no relevance to movement in regards of this discussion. As a complete irrelevant side note: cg_nopredict 0 does not apply to buying a weapon or building a structure.
@temple: saw your long post after i posted this one. Looks interesting and actually matches what we have been saying, only with a different conclusion. Will read the link you provided.
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all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.
So can you explain exactly what happens when the dretch that I see on my screen, when I have a high ping, is shot with my massdriver when it is not in that position on his screen? Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing). If this is not true, then many supporters of unlagged have unfounded reasons for liking it.
actually you have an unfounded reason for not liking it. there is a difference between high ping and a bad connection, with high ping (which should never happen if servers set a reasonable sv_maxping like 150) you will never see players stop moving on your client when they are still moving on the server, and you will never warp on the server if the server allows it, you will only have a significant delay between you taking an action and the server interpreting it. your examples only happen with packet loss or lack of bandwidth (or very low fps), and can happen just as easily with a low ping connection. like i said earlier, unlagged does nothing to help players with packet loss hit their target, and will in fact make them much easier to hit for other players by taking the guesswork out of where they should aim (position where he is now, position where he will warp to, somewhere in between, even ahead of the position where he will warp to are all possible in stock trem), but the antiwarp patch has not had its bugs worked out yet and hasn't been included yet as a result.
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all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.
So can you explain exactly what happens when the dretch that I see on my screen, when I have a high ping, is shot with my massdriver when it is not in that position on his screen? Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing). If this is not true, then many supporters of unlagged have unfounded reasons for liking it.
This what the dretch and human sees if they the same ping
.....t1.....t2.....t3.....t4.....t5.....time(t)
.....s1.....s2....s3....s4.....s5.....space(s)
......D......D......D......D.....D.....dretch(D)
..................H(human)
This is what the lagged humans sees.
.....t2.....t3.....t4.....t5.....t6.....time(t)...<-Notice the change in time
.....s1.....s2....s3....s4.....s5.....space(s)
......D......D......D......D.....D.....dretch(D)
..................H(human)
If both players have the same ping...
The human can shot spot 4 (s4) at time 4 (t4) and kill the dretch.
If the human is lagged...
The human can shot spot 4 (s4) at time 5 (t5) and miss the dretch (because at t5, the dretch is already at s5). On his screen, his aim was true. But his ping won't let him get the true position of the dretch.
What Unlagged does is say...
If the lagged human sees the dretch at spot 4 at time 5, then the human gets the kill because THAT IS WHAT WHERE THE DRETCH WAS ACCORDING TO HIS TIME. Yes, the dretch was at spot 5 at time 5. But the human couldn't see that. He saw everything later.
If ping was equal, the human have hit you if you because he can aim. The Unlagged server knows he can aim because the server knows what he is seeing and where he is shooting. So, he gets the kill. Without Unlagged, the human is still shooting accurately according to what he sees, but the server is holding him accountable to the ping of his opponents.
If the human can't shoot, he wouldn't have hit you regardless of ping.
Now, the dretch is going to say, 'But I was at space 5 at time 5, how did he shoot me, its unfair wah wah wah.' But the human would have killed you anyway if you had the same ping.
So...
Don't run straight in front of humans that can shoot.
The same works for aliens.
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Temple's previous post about his experience playing with unlagged was very informative, thanks for taking the time.
I read the link that temple provided. It actually has a lot more useful information about q3 than just Unlagged (big thanks for the pointer, and i recomemnd for everyone to read it).
There is also a section about the problem we are discussing here and I find it an interesting quote:
Wait – so is there more I should be worried about?
That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.) If you don't, you have nothing further to worry about.
Imagine yourself timing someone else's rail attacks. You jump to the side just before one comes by. The thing is, the hit test against you is done where your attacker saw you, which was before you jumped. You get hit anyway.
There are numerous scenarios like this, and all of them have the same solution: whatever you were going to do, do it earlier. How much earlier mostly depends on your attacker's ping. It actually doesn't take that long to get used to.
Personally, I believe there's hardly a problem when all the players in a game are pinging within 100ms of each other. That describes most casual and almost all competitive games.
The remaining casual games can handle a larger ping spread easily. It's the competitive games in which the ping spread is greater than 100ms that you start having fairness issues.
So first of all, the values mentioned here are very much those that jal offered (100ms). The second thing is that he does state the problems I and some others have mentioned. So for those that say I am completely wrong, there you have it in black and white :D
He even stated: whatever you were going to do, do it earlier. How much earlier mostly depends on your attacker's ping. So he even acknowledges that with Unlagged instead to compensate for his own lag a low pinger has to compensate for his opponents lag (shifting lag around).
And the main point is that he does recognize fairness issues with ping differences above 100ms.
On the other hand, below 100ms ping differences the author states that he feels this is worthwhile. My complaints were with higher ping differences.
So behind the bitching actually most of the knowledgeable posters here were right on both sides of the argument depending on what you define is high lag. So maybe we should leave it at that. I will remain on the position that with high ping (differences) Unlagged has fairness issues. And I will also remain on the position that with only low lag (or equal lag) players in a game Unlagged is not much of an issue for me.
For low ping (differences) your argumentation is however on the spot, it probably doesn't make much difference. But when I talk about high lag, I mean around 150ms, maybe 100ms, but most certainly 200ms.
If ping was equal, the human have hit you if you because he can aim.
I am afraid this is wrong: If his and my ping where both low, my moving about making it harder to hit me would have been in time and could have been successful unless he had an aimbot or is unfailable. I think this is what the author means with: That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks.
Without Unlagged, the human is still shooting accurately according to what he sees, but the server is holding him accountable to the ping of his opponents.
Afraid wrong again, he is being hold accountable for his own bad ping. Since the ping of his opponent isn't that high, there is nothing much to hold anyone accountable for anyway.
Don't run straight in front of humans that can shoot.
You mean never run straight when still hidden behind a corner could be human that can shoot :D
Anyways.....
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I am afraid this is wrong: If his and my ping where both low, my moving about making it harder to hit me would have been in time and could have been successful unless he had an aimbot or is unfailable. I think this is what the author means with: That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks.
You aren't moving slower on his screen, you are appearing later.
If he can shoot, you would dead regardless. If he is lagged, you will survive simply because his screen is reporting late data.
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You aren't moving slower on his screen, you are appearing later.
?
who said anything about slower?
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Thank you to Eeeew for reading that so that I didn't have to. =)
temple has made himself an example of the sort of supporter I was refering to before.
What Unlagged does is say...
If the lagged human sees the dretch at spot 4 at time 5, then the human gets the kill because THAT IS WHAT WHERE THE DRETCH WAS ACCORDING TO HIS TIME. Yes, the dretch was at spot 5 at time 5. But the human couldn't see that. He saw everything later.
This is what I have a problem with.
@kevlarman: Packet loss is an issue I overlooked. Thanks for differentiating between packet loss and lag for me. I'm interested in whether high-pingers would naturally lose packets anyway. Is this so?
I've been given conflicting views of what happens to laggy/lossy signals in tremulous and this has given me differing ideas of where the server places you at any given time. This, however, has only changed the setting of my examples and has never made any difference to my major concern. So long as laggers are able to shoot directly at a target and hit it regardless of my differing view, I will see this as unfair. No matter how unlagged tries to reposition the scenario so that things are less likely to annoy, I'm likely to disagree with a judgement that it makes at some point because it's not consistent with my view. The drunkards throw their punches at the wrong time, yet this guy keeps pushing me back into the path of his sweaty fist.
I'll try to conclude once more. Unlagged is for laggers. If you're a lagger who wants unlagged to be not optional but fixed-on- please spare a thought for those who don't suffer the lag you do.
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Thank you to Eeeew for reading that so that I didn't have to. =)
temple has made himself an example of the sort of supporter I was refering to before.
What?
-Has actually played with Unlagged?
-Intelligent?
-Understands what Unlagged is?
-Knows what he is talking about?
-Could wipe you across any server or configuration?
I'll try to conclude once more. Unlagged is for laggers. If you're a lagger who wants unlagged to be not optional but fixed-on- please spare a thought for those who don't suffer the lag you do.
Laggers...those monsters.
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temple, I follow that sentence with my justification.
temple has made himself an example of the sort of supporter I was refering to before.
What Unlagged does is say...
If the lagged human sees the dretch at spot 4 at time 5, then the human gets the kill because THAT IS WHAT WHERE THE DRETCH WAS ACCORDING TO HIS TIME. Yes, the dretch was at spot 5 at time 5. But the human couldn't see that. He saw everything later.
This is what I have a problem with.
Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing).
kevlarman didn't agree that this was the case..
time still passes if the player has an unstable connection, if they see you not moving on their screen because of packet loss, then what they see no longer lines up with what they have to shoot for.
..but now it seems that it is the case thanks to a statement quoted by Eeeew:
Wait – so is there more I should be worried about?
That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.) If you don't, you have nothing further to worry about.
Imagine yourself timing someone else's rail attacks. You jump to the side just before one comes by. The thing is, the hit test against you is done where your attacker saw you, which was before you jumped. You get hit anyway.
There are numerous scenarios like this, and all of them have the same solution: whatever you were going to do, do it earlier. How much earlier mostly depends on your attacker's ping. It actually doesn't take that long to get used to.
Personally, I believe there's hardly a problem when all the players in a game are pinging within 100ms of each other. That describes most casual and almost all competitive games.
The remaining casual games can handle a larger ping spread easily. It's the competitive games in which the ping spread is greater than 100ms that you start having fairness issues.
The guy who says this seems to have the aattitude that you should have anticipated anything unexpected that unlagged throws at you. This I disagree with.
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What?
-Understands what Unlagged is?
-Knows what he is talking about?
Since my understanding of Unlagged is how it is described in the Link you posted, and with the same conclusion about its symptoms as the said link, I conclude that my understanding of Unlagged suffice for the discussion here thank you, unless that Link contains utter nonsense.
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Something I neglected to call attention to earlier:
I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.
too bad, even with unlagged off this happens.
If you mean the miniscule differences that occur in non-unlagged games then this is nowhere near the extent to which is occurs with unlagged. A laggy player would miss me because I dodged without unlagged. Apparently, with unlagged he'd hit me because he didn't see my dodge.
@temple: You said yourself that unlagged will allow anyone to hit anyone else so long as they saw them in that position at that time. Can you imagine how this might be frustrating? You might say those people are just making excuses, but don't you see how they might be annoyed when they are so sure they should have survived but didn't because of another persons differing acccount of things? When one guy is lagging heavily and the other isn't, what sort of movements would the laggy guy see the not laggy guy making? Would this be a sensible portrayal of the non-laggy guys dodging skillz?
@kevlarman: You seem sure of what unlagged does, whereas I've only objected to that which people have said it does. You've said I've lied, yet I can't lie about something I don't know as more than a hypothetical situation. Many times, the assumptions in my arguments have been the arguments of the previous posters (an attempt at persuading through reductio ad absurdum). No matter the explanation given, there's always been a point of contention. I realise that unlagged isn't for the sort of low-ping, consistent gaming I'm used to. It's for those who lag. This tells me it should be optional. Others seem to think otherwise. Do you think it should be optional too?
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Alright, now I might not get all this technical stuff(In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't) But from what I've noticed in games, there seem to be a lot of problems here and there when I play on unlagged.
Sometimes, I would shoot exactly at a dretch, see my md shot pass through him and hit the wall exactly behind the guy, not forgetting he's going in a straight line, and the shot would actually miss.
At other times, I would shoot, and know I was 15 feet away from my target, and yet I'd hit, and possibly kill my opponent. Now this is my personal biggest dislike of unlag and really, I have no idea how and why it happens. My guess would be that unlag might actually leave an information trail as to where hitboxes are and were, and that the server doesn't read the information I might send correctly.
Now, there are other problems that I personally dislike.
First off, unlag makes aiming so much more easier that anything lower then a goon mince rifle meat. And unless the goon actually camps behind corners waiting for that head shot, then he's in deep doodoo. This forces alien to camp corners ten folds, and even then, they are often taken down by a single shotgun shot. This makes humans overpowered over aliens if the human team is any half decent.
Secondly, the sudden rise of aimbots. Unlag favors aimbots since it makes it easier to use and easier to code. Without any ping issues, an aimbot will alway strike true, whereas if the aimbot had to shoot a 150 pinger, it would most certainly miss.
Thirdly, It makes human camping games hell. No goon can pounce for a kill with 3-4 aware campers without seeing his face splatered on a near wall. Games on servers with unlag(Especially on atcs) have either become a huge alien slaughter or a huge human campfest.
Franctly, after reading a few post here and there in this thread(Sorry kev, I skipped a few of yours, they were giving me a headacke) I noticed a lot of you stating they play on dretch*storm or other gigantic player servers that run unlag.
Now, let me state something, I got kicked from D*S twice and got banned for over 2 weeks because people said I aimbot.
I'm banned from over 5 other servers running unlag for the same reason.
I regularly get kicked from servers running unlag for this same reason.
I spend my days playing with actual good players that have prooven their worth both on lagged and unlagged servers, big people that everyone knows. Here I mean: bodyorgan, kattana, orc, black, most of zub/zilla/oldkillaz, iabz, and I could pass over a dozen others that almost everyone knows, people who have near 8/10 aim on lagged and 9/10+ on unlagged. Though I'd say I'm not the best, and in fact, far from it, I do beleive I still hold more skills then 3/4 of the community. I've learned through the hard way that unlag makes any semi competent human team a nightmare for aliens. If the human team as any sort of teamwork, aliens can easily be dispatched.
All in all, I beleive unlag to have brought more calamity then miracles. Simply because it is useless with pings under 80-90 and that if you can't get a server with lower then 200 ping, then maybe you should either consider buying a better connection or simply not playing online games of this genre, especially today with over 200 servers located around the globe. It brought about the release of aimbots, shitloads of problems and made humans more overpowered then they were(Yes, unlike all you morons who think humans underpowered, I believe them to be more powerful exept for nakedvsgoon) and make it easier for noob laggers, who shouldn't even be there, to hit.
Unlag is unneeded. Proof coming from the fact that the games that use it can be counted on the fingers of a single hand.
Just my 2 cents.
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I looked up what cg_nopredict does, but couldn't find much useful information. But from the little i did read is that with cg_nopredict 0 the client is rendering your actions without waiting for confirmation by the server about the validity of that action.
This is a pretty correct description of what prediction does. It executes the movement commands generated by the client and not yet confirmed by the server. In short, guesses where your client will be even if the server didn't move it yet (take note of this: Clients never see themselves where they really are, which is a few steps behind of their view).
What cg_nopredict does is disabling it, so it shows the real client position.
So behind the bitching actually most of the knowledgeable posters here were right on both sides of the argument depending on what you define is high lag. So maybe we should leave it at that. I will remain on the position that with high ping (differences) Unlagged has fairness issues. And I will also remain on the position that with only low lag (or equal lag) players in a game Unlagged is not much of an issue for me.
For low ping (differences) your argumentation is however on the spot, it probably doesn't make much difference.
I find a huge difference when playing ET with 60 ping and when playing Q3 (or Trem). The main point is, I don't need to accomodate to each server ping. If I join a server where I ping 40 and a server where I ping 80 I can use the same play style. As it is the same playstyle as at LAN. I'm, ofc, more effective the closer to LAN cause shooting isn't the only thing that counts, but being able to keep a constant style is much better for improving yourself. And, ofc, more pleasant. They are games after all, and we don't play them for the sacrifice.
This is why I always say what matters is improving the playing experience, and not fixing bad connections.
On a side note, refering to people claiming it's too easy to get kills with antilag. Agreed, you're just right, and damages should be modified accordingly. In Warsow, we had to decrease most weapons damage by around a 20%, and some hitscan ones even more.
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What cg_nopredict does is disabling it, so it shows the real client position.
Or to be more precise, given you have a ping of X ms and given that you execute a valid action:
cg_nopredict 0: Your position as you view it is X/2 ahead of where the server decides you are
cg_nopredict 1: Your position as you view it is X/2 behind of where the server decides you are
So actually cg_nopredict with both setting show you X/2 off of where the server sees you.
And what counts is where the server decides you are. Its meaningless for calculations of events in an UnlaggedOFF scenario where you think you are, but:
UnlaggedOFF: Given a low ping, where you think you are is close to where the server sees you in regards of shots and position.
UnlaggedOFF: With high ping the difference is much bigger
UnlaggedON: Not so however with Unlagged.
- There sometimes the server decides where you are depending on how much lag somebody else has for hit calculation on you.
- There sometimes the server decides to count your shots based on the position the server thinks you viewed yourself in and not where the server saw you in that time.
This again means, that with cg_nopredict 1 would funlily UnlaggedON or would make it apear more random for the high pinger, where as with UnlaggedOFF cg_nopredict only applies client side and not interfere with how the server decides (not directly, the server still only decides, but with no_predict 1 the high pinger movement feel a lot more sluggish and he would see himself closer to the position the other low ping clients see him).
In that regards is kevlarman right that cg_nopredict has some relation to Unlagged.
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Mantra
Sometimes, I would shoot exactly at a dretch, see my md shot pass through him and hit the wall exactly behind the guy, not forgetting he's going in a straight line, and the shot would actually miss.
I've heard people say that.
I never use the Mass Driver (too expensive, shotgun is better and stronger), so I don't know anything about the shots passing through people.
First off, unlag makes aiming so much more easier that anything lower then a goon mince rifle meat.
Secondly, the sudden rise of aimbots.
Thirdly, It makes human camping games hell. .
1st, anything below a goon should be mincemeat. I actually have gotten better at playing with Unlagged. You can adjust and forget that Unlagged is even on.
2nd, aimbots....blah.
3rd, Games are already camping hell.
I argued all your points in the 'TJW new version of Tremulous' thread when I first started playing with Unlagged. But after a while, I got better and I realized that Unlagged is a correction and it benefits everyone.
Franctly, after reading a few post here and there in this thread(Sorry kev, I skipped a few of yours, they were giving me a headacke) I noticed a lot of you stating they play on dretch*storm or other gigantic player servers that run unlag.
What name did you play under on D*S? I don't remember a specific mantra or if I did, I don't remember anything special about it.
D*S has 28 max players. Which it only runs 28 players maybe a few hours at night. I play more 10-16 player games than 28. Just to clear that up.
Now, let me state something, I got kicked from D*S twice and got banned for over 2 weeks because people said I aimbot.
I'm banned from over 5 other servers running unlag for the same reason.
I regularly get kicked from servers running unlag for this same reason.
I spend my days playing with actual good players that have prooven their worth both on lagged and unlagged servers, big people that everyone knows. Here I mean: bodyorgan, kattana, orc, black, most of zub/zilla/oldkillaz, iabz, and I could pass over a dozen others that almost everyone knows, people who have near 8/10 aim on lagged and 9/10+ on unlagged. Though I'd say I'm not the best, and in fact, far from it, I do beleive I still hold more skills then 3/4 of the community. I've learned through the hard way that unlag makes any semi competent human team a nightmare for aliens. If the human team as any sort of teamwork, aliens can easily be dispatched.
I've played with all those people too.
In fact, I have killed katt, bloody, and anger when they have a Mass Driver as a dretch. They don't hack and they can miss. They can be killed. Unlagged just forces aliens to think a little bit more. I don't even want to derail the thread with tactics but people need to step up their games.
At the same time, it is not possible to get past specific situation. Like if Katt is sitting on the opposite end of a hall. Katt can pick dretches 1 by 1. I don't see that problem with that because goons can do the same thing. But there is a way to challenge that situation but it requires a little more thinking.
The problem with Unlagged isn't the humans, its the aliens. I was saying this in the Aimbot thread. Most aliens think it is their job to run straight into the human base over and over. Without Unlagged, the turrets usually kill people. Now, your average human is getting more kills. But is the dretches that feed over and over, running in plain sight, never wall walking, not ambushing, pressing down long halls, that is ruining the game. I sometimes go spectator to see why the alien team is losing and its the a bunch of dretches doing lazy/noobish stuff and then complaining when the human team advances.
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Another interesting quote from the from the author of unlagged for Quake III is the following:
I just got shot around a corner!
Common Answer
Sort of. What actually happened was that, when your attacker saw you, you really were in plain sight, to him.
You didn't think you would get total hitscan lag compensation for free, did you?
At any rate, if all you're worried about is getting “shot around a corner,” the effects aren't that big of a deal. You can get used to that. Just remember that Unlagged helps other people hit you in exactly the same way that it helps you hit other people.
Technical Answer
The answer isn't much different. You, as the target, were backward reconciled to the point where your attacker saw you, which was in plain sight. There's nothing buggy or weird about it – it's just a side-effect. Lag compensation by client-side hit tests has exactly the same problem.
In this, he admits that thier is the inconsistency that we are occasionally frustrated by. He tries to justify this:
1. This is a natural consequence of attempting to reduce lag problems.
I understand that this is the price you pay if you can't afford to play on low-ping servers (he knows too that this is the only way to fully relieve yourself of these problems).
2. The disadvantage is also given to your enemy who can shoot you round corners too.
This on the other hand is not valid in tremulous. In tremulous the alien side doesn't attaeck in the same way that the human side does. It seems like unlagged was made for FPSs with both sides attacking from long range. Tremulous isn't like this.
Some peoples reasons for liking unlagged have been that the low-pinging guy no longer has the unfair advantage. Could these people be seeing a natural advantage as an unfair one, and the lag compensation is actually giving THEM the unfair advantage?
One important point to note. To some extent, all trem-players will be used to a certain level of latency. Whether it be because you're far away from the server or you've only adapted to the built-in lag. When you are used to your own level of lag, it can be frustrating to have another clients measure of events suddenly interrupt the consistency of your own. I guess some people prefer the server to be always right and some people prefer the client to be always right. I personally don't see the high-pingers measure of events as 'trustworthy'.
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This on the other hand is not valid in tremulous. In tremulous the alien side doesn't attaeck in the same way that the human side does. It seems like unlagged was made for FPSs with both sides attacking from long range. Tremulous isn't like this.
Bullshit. Tremulous is the game I know would benefit most of proper antilag. Aliens need it badly in any of their evolutions, and humans need it badly for machineguning dretches. Both feel disgusting and randomly unfair atm.
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On a side note, refering to people claiming it's too easy to get kills with antilag. Agreed, you're just right, and damages should be modified accordingly. In Warsow, we had to decrease most weapons damage by around a 20%, and some hitscan ones even more.
Very interesting. You show you have given Unlagged a lot of thought both in it's theory and practical side . Since you wrote a version of Unlagged this is not suprising that your observations and thought match closely the observations of the other Unlagged author in the Link temple provided.
So with your quotes and the quotes from the Link temple provided, Unlagged makes only sense when:
- cg_maxping < 100 or max_reconciliationtime < 100 (since beyond that you get fairness issues)
- changing other parts of the game too to compensate for artifacts Unlagged causes.
Aliens need it badly in any of their evolutions, and humans need it badly for machineguning dretches. Both feel disgusting atm.
Its not like there are no kills on UnlaggedOFF servers :D Also disgusting is very relative. I hope you are not saying we like it to be disgusting. I mean, that's your view. Our view is we want it not to become disgusting :D
Anyway, don't take my following point to serious:
I have an idea for a cheat. I will put an artificial delay (or messing with message timestamps) in returning/sending packages to the server. With that delay I can control how much lag the server thinks I have.
When I shoot a dretch, my lil cheat controller will look if and when the dretch was on the spot I shot at. It will then delay my information to the server by the right amount until the server thinks that that is the ping I have. Now my actual shot is being send. Voila, dretch paté. In pactice I don't think it will work very well, since its hard to control internet latencies and applying the right calculation is difficult since the server tries to smoothen the ping values.
The point this bullshit of a cheat proposition is trying to make, is that clients can suddenly manipulate or temper with server calculations.
Servers are god (or the equivalent of newton laws, depending on your religious status :D ) and always should be right and should not be tempered with. I think many server owners share that point of view :D.
On a more serious note, I find it a pitty that first a Link is posted that supposed to explain all, and when it actually does and confirms what I am saying suddenly it gets ignored :D Oh well, discussion tactics :D
And now again to something Off Topic This is like politics when people teach the controversy. 'E-vilution is a THERORY, ITS NOT TRUE!11111111' I don't even want to respond but its so stupid I have to.
Actually, Evolution is a theory and is a theory that has been tested in reality and simulations that it works. The observations of species we have today on our real planet together with the examination of fossil remains found in layers of chalk correspond very exactly to the theories of evolution of species. Thus it is very logic to assume that this is the best explanation of how things happened, no other Theory comes closer than that. One of the major attribute this theory has is that it is self-contained and complete. Any other theories I know have major flaws or substitute unknown X with unexplainable Y. More interesting however is the Evolution theory applied to molecular evolution, since this explains the evolution of DNA itself.
Unfortunately real life doesn't have Unlagged. if it did we could go out kill the monkey. Wouldn't that be fun?
Oh no, the father-son paradox, I didn't want to go there :D
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One more idea I had:
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine? If it was worked since Q3 and if it was the only way used by the methods (in the game's source-code) to control the relation between bullets, players, gravity etc., wouldn't it turn the engine's natural gameplay into something better?
Better for some people, but still, as you can see from the poll, it would make it worse for the other half. Stop thinking about no unlagged or only unlagged options :c.
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i don't see why people complain so much about getting killed around the corner. yes it can happen, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't matter. it's happened to me twice, and one of those was probably due to client prediction and not unlagged. client misspredictions on the other hand have gotten me killed upwards of 10 times in a single game, but you don't see huge flame wars demanding that client prediction be removed from tremulous.
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i don't see why people complain so much about getting killed around the corner. yes it can happen, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't matter. it's happened to me twice, and one of those was probably due to client prediction and not unlagged. client misspredictions on the other hand have gotten me killed upwards of 10 times in a single game, but you don't see huge flame wars demanding that client prediction be removed from tremulous.
Don't say that.
People are going to be like 'OMG WHAT IS PREDICTION?!' Before long, the 'coding geniuses' of this thread will be predicting a prediction hack that has probably been used to kill them before. And Unlagged will make it all the easier.
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One more idea I had:
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine? If it was worked since Q3 and if it was the only way used by the methods (in the game's source-code) to control the relation between bullets, players, gravity etc., wouldn't it turn the engine's natural gameplay into something better?
Better for some people, but still, as you can see from the poll, it would make it worse for the other half. Stop thinking about no unlagged or only unlagged options :c.
Agreeance.
As for this theory mumbo..
The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.
In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements that would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.
In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.
In a scientific context, the theory of Evolution is just that- a theory. It is a very strong theory in fact. This is because predictions have been backed up by observation time and time again without there ever being a definite counter-example. Fact is a more bold description as it would only take one exception to the 'fact' for it to become invalid. This is why scientists prefer to be open-minded in case their 'fact' can't explain something they encounter at a later date.
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Why just the other day I was at Krogers in the 15 items or less express lane. Some guy ahead of me with his stuffed grocery cart just turned and smiled to the rest of us...
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Why just the other day I was at Krogers in the 15 items or less express lane. Some guy ahead of me with his stuffed grocery cart just turned and smiled to the rest of us...
I couldn't have put it better myself.
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I got kicked from D*S as mantra+zilla
I got banned on another name because I was sick of getting kicked, unfortunatelly, I got banned.
I fail to see how making anything lower then goon hell to play benefits aliens. With any half decent coordinated team(Forward shotgun with backed up las/md) Not a single dretch/lisk/mara can attack without sudenly dying. Even rifles can hold that job true.
Now, most people know how I play, I'm a crazy wall jumping moron, and chances are I'll jump right on your head after being worse then a mara. Now even that is useless, simply because the second someone sees me, I'm dead, no matter what gun they use.
Camping corners doesn't work anymore against humans either, simply because when you hop out of it, by the time you see the human, the human already sees you and started shooting you.
So now, its nearly impossible to kill with a dretch unless: you got lucky, the enemy is stupid and can't aim worth crap or is afk in the hall.
If you follow what I'm saying, this means that any half decent human team can get s2 without even dying, even possibly s3, and now in maybe 5-6 min you got a rampaging s3 lucy team spaming your door and base.
Only thing I believed might work for tjw was raising dretch hp to 35, which made them somewhat harder to kill and last that single milli second that could mean life or death.
On the regards of those players, check my post in the clan section. I've played almost all big namesand won more then half my games with them.
I do aggree with you that its the feeders that ruin the game, now on aliens, before on humans. But there's franctly nothing we can do about it.
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Your post seems largely exagerative and off-topic. =/ Unlagged doesn't have THAT much of an affect. It can annoy people in certain situations that unlagged cannot account for, but that doesn't mean unlagged doesn't do a good job otherwise.
Yes, I know it seems like I've changed sides in this debate, but it's not so clear-cut. I see the job that unlagged is doing, and if it could do it so well that no one would ever tell the difference between a lan game a high-ping game, then this would be a great acheivement indeed. Thugh they've done a good job with it, that isn't to says it's perfect. There are questionable reconciliations and such when tremulous is concerned, which might not appear as problems in other games. This isn't to say that unlagged makes any one side super powerful. It just causes inconsistencies which can frustrate players rather than help them.
Unlagged isn't the root of all evil. It's just the umbrella that's meant to shelter us from the root of all evil.
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The conclusion after I read all points of view and evidence.
Unlagged makes it true to form. However since tremulous 1.1.0 was balanced without unlagged even in mind there have been some problems.
For unlagged to work correctly there will have to be balance adjustments primarily and setting (feel) adjustments secondarily. What people are complaining about the most is feel but what is the real problem is balance.
Although atm I am still against unlagged in its current form its principal is solid and worth it should the issues present now be adressed. If these issues however are dealt away with the mere thought being 'unlagged is just better and needs no refinements' I would be disappointed. But I can also see there is still a lot of work being done to it.
My advice to the opponents is wait it out untill they adress the problems and judge a finished version of it. Atm it feels like upgrading the engine of a car to f1 levels without changing the rest to match it. Give them time to change the rest to suit this idea.
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i don't see why people complain so much about getting killed around the corner. yes it can happen, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't matter.
The around the corner metaphor is just a metaphor for similar situations that will show the same phenomena with Unlagged. If corners was the only problem, I'd say lets get rid of the corners :D
client misspredictions on the other hand have gotten me killed upwards of 10 times in a single game
How can you tell you were killed by your clients missprediction? Did it say:
kevlarman was killed by his clients misspredictions
but you don't see huge flame wars demanding that client prediction be removed from tremulous.
Its simple enough, edit your configuration and set cg_nopredict 1. The nice thing about cg_nopredict is that it only effects your own client, you cannot change what happens with somebody elses client.
People are going to be like 'OMG WHAT IS PREDICTION?!' Before long, the 'coding geniuses' of this thread will be predicting a prediction hack that has probably been used to kill them before.
Well, this genius right here seems to have interpreted what client prediction does quite well. This genius right here seems to have also interpreted what Unlagged does quite well if you compare it with the information you find in the Link you provided. And given an OK ping your clients missprediction is never far off. So why the cheap backstabbing?
Although atm I am still against unlagged in its current form its principal is solid and worth it should the issues present now be adressed. If these issues however are dealt away with the mere thought being 'unlagged is just better and needs no refinements' I would be disappointed.
Gee, you managed to sum up the contents of 6 pages of text in 2 sentences. Well done:D
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if you ever move into a door that opens quickly (most doors on karith and nexus) at roughly 600ups you will see a really obvious missprediction. when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't, as a result i miss my next bunny hop and eat a face full of lead.
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I got kicked from D*S as mantra+zilla
I got banned on another name because I was sick of getting kicked, unfortunatelly, I got banned.
I fail to see how making anything lower then goon hell to play benefits aliens. With any half decent coordinated team(Forward shotgun with backed up las/md) Not a single dretch/lisk/mara can attack without sudenly dying. Even rifles can hold that job true.
Tue Apr 03, 2007
Unlagged and Alien hit points[/b]
With Unlagged, humans are dealing a lot more damage. Specifically, the rifle is connecting much more and making Stage 1 and Stage 2 brutal for aliens. I think all aliens need their hit points buffed around 5-10 points due to how the game plays now.
Wed Apr 04, 2007
The Alien Problem
Its too hard to generate evos.
With Unlagged, dretches are a non threat if the human has range. Without dretches, aliens don't have another weapon to use.
I felt the same way BACK THEN. But I've changed now that I'm used it too.
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if you ever move into a door that opens quickly (most doors on karith and nexus) at roughly 600ups you will see a really obvious missprediction. when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't, as a result i miss my next bunny hop and eat a face full of lead.
ups = fps? or is ups the server updates you receive? If it's the first, I can never test it, my computer would cause a meltdown before I'd reach those values.
I am not quite sure what is being described in your example. Your client predicts (renders) to early that the door is open when the server considers it is closed until it receives your door-open message?
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if you ever move into a door that opens quickly (most doors on karith and nexus) at roughly 600ups you will see a really obvious missprediction. when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't, as a result i miss my next bunny hop and eat a face full of lead.
ups = fps? or is ups the server updates you receive? If it's the first, I can never test it, my computer would cause a meltdown before I'd reach those values.
I am not quite sure what is being described in your example. Your client predicts (renders) to early that the door is open when the server considers it is closed until it receives your door-open message?
ups = units per second (for comparison, a human moves at 320 ups without sprint, and come to think of it, 600 might be a little low). the door will open in time for you to not crash into it, but if your ping is 60 or more you will appear to smack into it on your client.
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ups = units per second (for comparison, a human moves at 320 ups without sprint, and come to think of it, 600 might be a little low). the door will open in time for you to not crash into it, but if your ping is 60 or more you will appear to smack into it on your client.
So its actually completely reversed as I interpreted.
The door is actually open in the servers point of view, but the opening door is not subject to prediction, that's why you only see the door open when you get the confirmation message that the door opened. In the meantime you are hit by bullets from the other side of the door while you still see the door closed.
Interesting.
Does your client correct your position after you did get the confirmation that the door was actually open and though you apeared to be smaking against the door the server already saw you on the other side of it and so do you after you got the servers confirmation?
when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't
I think this part confused me, sorry to go completely Off Topic. Why does it appear to you that you hit the bsuit when you still see the door closed?
Little side question: I presume the state of the door itself is not being rolled back. Would this also imply that when a high ping person is shooting at the door which still seems closed to him but the server already sees open, his shots would count? Not that you can win a game using this tactic though, someone who frequently fires at closed doors probably does not add to the teams performance at all (more likely the reverse) with his lucky kill once every 50 games :D
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ups = units per second (for comparison, a human moves at 320 ups without sprint, and come to think of it, 600 might be a little low). the door will open in time for you to not crash into it, but if your ping is 60 or more you will appear to smack into it on your client.
So its actually completely reversed as I interpreted.
The door is actually open in the servers point of view, but the opening door is not subject to prediction, that's why you only see the door open when you get the confirmation message that the door opened. In the meantime you are hit by bullets from the other side of the door while you still see the door closed.
Interesting.
still wrong. the problem is that your movement becomes extremely difficult to control for nearly half a second (this can be reduced a little by changing the amount of time the client will use to smooth out a missprediction, but that has its own issues). i've gotten used to the karith door missprediction by now, so it's mostly a non-issue, but when i misspredict in the middle of a fight it can and has gotten me killed. it's mostly an issue with dretches though because other classes can't gain that kind of speed in the middle of a fight.
Little side question: I presume the state of the door itself is not being rolled back. Would this also imply that when a high ping person is shooting at the door which still seems closed to him but the server already sees open, his shots would count? Not that you can win a game using this tactic though, someone who frequently fires at closed doors probably does not add to the teams performance at all (more likely the reverse) with his lucky kill once every 50 games.
this is correct, but the opposite situation is more important: the door closes on the server and his shots will no longer land even though he sees them hitting.
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movement becomes extremely difficult to control for nearly half a second.
Do you mean the dretch behaves more spastical, or is this reflected in a moment of not being able to accelerate (or change direction) as fast as you are used to? In the latter case, I was always wondering what that was. I always thought that this was due to Unlagged (<- don't take that last comment serious, bad joke :oops:)
Not that it matters much in regards to Unlagged, but I still don't quite understand what is happing there in a technical view point. But I think that I can clear that up by myself by reading more information about client prediction.
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movement becomes extremely difficult to control for nearly half a second.
Do you mean the dretch behaves more spastical, or is this reflected in a moment of not being able to accelerate (or change direction) as fast as you are used to? In the latter case, I was always wondering what that was. I always thought that this was due to Unlagged (<- don't take that last comment serious, bad joke :oops:)
Not that it matters much in regards to Unlagged, but I still don't quite understand what is happing there in a technical view point. But I think that I can clear that up by myself by reading more information about client prediction.
you will get stuck against some object that isn't really in your way, then as soon as your client realizes that it wasn't blocked, it "fast forwards" to line up what you see and what will happen when the server gets your message. you can set the amount of time the client uses to recover from a missprediction (including 0, but that would be extremely disorienting).
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cl_maxping 50
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^^^^^^^^Empty server for 7/8 of the day.
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One more idea I had:
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine? If it was worked since Q3 and if it was the only way used by the methods (in the game's source-code) to control the relation between bullets, players, gravity etc., wouldn't it turn the engine's natural gameplay into something better?
Better for some people, but still, as you can see from the poll, it would make it worse for the other half. Stop thinking about no unlagged or only unlagged options :c.
It won't make it worse for the other half when properly tweaked. They think it would, cause when players master a game become conservative and scared of change. This has happened to many games in the past.
I'd encourage the people implementing antilag (kevlarman, I guess?) to restrict the reconciliation default value to the shorter time themselves, and not let it to the server admin. Cause if the server admin doesn't care enough, it will show the feedback glitches, and this is what creates its bad fame.
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I would welcome a version of unlagged that was perfect in every way. How likely is this going to be the case though? Surely, even with the most subtle changes, a small action that was vital to my success could still not be replicated on another client's screen and I pay the price as if I'd never made said action. This might be less prominent or frequent an occurance, but it would still enter into the game a number of times over a duration of play. This could still cause upset. Why not leave it as an option and then even the obsessive complainers will have one less excuse.
I'd also like to note that the current poll has reached 31 - 31.
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With the foresight that with the following suggestion I will bring both groups, the ones that advocate Unlagged and those that refuse Unlagged, against me, I have shown to be stubborn enough to go ahead anyways:
At the moment I know of none of the more regular european servers that is running Unlagged. Most of them used to have it when it became more widespread. But server owners in concord with their player base have chosen to remove it again. So actually since then we haven't had much opportunity to continue to test it.
So my suggestion is for the developers of Unlagged and the european server owners to come to an agreement about fixing Unlagged and have it run for testing purposes. When I say fixing I mainly mean the corrections that jal suggested in limiting the rollback time to a more appropriate value, and at the same time looking at weapon damage values and see if they would require a change. In addition I am sure the developers also have their own ideas about what needs fixing to improve their time machine :D.
I know that most server owners and developers are not very closely tight and that they operate very independent, so that task may be hard to accomplish.
But back to live, and back to reality: without such a dialog there won't be any Unlagged on servers here. The server owners I spoke to are very clear on their stance towards Unlagged, as well as some of the major Clans here. Unless you give them any reason for them to change their minds, any discussion about pros and cons is futile, since it won't change the server landscape we have here.
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Reason: they were testing an unfinished product.
And for tuning antilag you don't need that high of a level players at the start. Normal level players should be able to take notice of the weird effects discussed. When those are gone you take it to the higher level people for fine-tuning and finishing it. Let them work on it in peace with the comments they got and wait for the next real version, not some quick fixes.
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At the moment I know of none of the more regular european servers that is running Unlagged.
A bunch of idiots on D*S wanted to vote Unlagged off too.
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"]Unlagged made me do one conclusion :
The players who has a natural ability to prevent enemy's movement or are training to dodge, don't like it because they are always dead in the past with a fucking weird sensation of an alien watching in another side. These kind of people generally don't have any problems to aim by managing their own ping. In one word, they only see disadvantages in unlagged.
The players who has a natural hability to be static and die everytime by good aliens don't see any differences with or without unlagged about dodging (haha they don't dodge so it's normal). But because they sux at aim by managing their own ping, the are in love with unlagged which it make them hit enemies they couldn't dream about.
So i describe here 2 kind of people :
Players who can aim, dodge and manage their own ping==> good players
Players who don't dodge, can't aim (without unlagged), prefer to give their own ping to the opponent than managing them self ==> erm ...
You can easy deduce for what kind of players unlagged was made.
Unlagged is the easiest way to feel good in tremulous but ... it's just a feeling imho.
Unlagged will never emulates a lan sensation ...
Btw i can say what i want, i stopped playing xD, but a last flame to show to people that unlagged is for nubs was a good candy !
Zipper is the Andy Kaufman of Tremulous, and like him, he's dead.... or not.
I love you Zipper :oops: :oops: :oops:
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"]The players who has a natural ability to prevent enemy's movement or are training to dodge, don't like it because they are always dead in the past with a fucking weird sensation of an alien watching in another side. These kind of people generally don't have any problems to aim by managing their own ping. In one word, they only see disadvantages in unlagged.
I don't even play Trem too much, but I do these things fairly well, and can aim with lag fine after 10 years of playing quake series. I'm not any kind of Trem "pro" tho cause I don't spend that much time playing games anymore, but when I play at publics I use to be at the top positions of the scores (I use to be at Corbina or TBase under 'killingspree' name). It's not the same as playing pickups or clangames, ofc, but I'm not any newb at fighting, and I do think antilag would improve this game a lot, and the people who doesn't trust it now will find it a must have after getting used to it.
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And I do think antilag would improve this game a lot, and the people who doesn't trust it now will find it a must have after getting used to it.
Personal statistics in eu :
1 month after unlagged has appeared :
95% of "serious" public server had unlagged
now (4-5 month later) :
10% of "serious" public server have unlagged.
All the top-players in eu are non-unlagged-players at the moment. And many of them was unlagged-players before.
Deduce what you want.
edit : in your debate, you should think about that : the "ping-problems" in America are not the same in Europe.
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I'm not surprised about that. I tried it and felt bad too, but that's just cause the implementation needs to be refined, not cause antilag is a bad thing.
Watch at Warsow case: The game is populated by ex-q3 and ex-ut competitive players. I don't know about the ut guys, but q3 competitive players always had the position of unlagged being evil crap. In Warsow there aren't any complaints (further than some issue reported for us to solve) and the 100% of the servers kept it enabled.
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I tried it and felt bad too, but that's just cause the implementation needs to be refined, not cause antilag is a bad thing.
Perfect antilag would be a great thing. It wouldn't ever be able to rid you of lag, but it would help if you had no alternative. Unlagged isn't perfect though. It's not likely to ever be, but that's no reason to stop improving it.
I opened this discussion to raise awareness about the problems people have with unlagged, not to "condemn it to the depths of the earth like the worthless piece of excrement it is". I hope you understand that I made the 'absolute scum' option as a satirical way of having a negative option.
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"]And I do think antilag would improve this game a lot, and the people who doesn't trust it now will find it a must have after getting used to it.
Personal statistics in eu :
1 month after unlagged has appeared :
95% of "serious" public server had unlagged
now (4-5 month later) :
10% of "serious" public server have unlagged.
All the top-players in eu are non-unlagged-players at the moment. And many of them was unlagged-players before.
Deduce what you want.
edit : in your debate, you should think about that : the "ping-problems" in America are not the same in Europe.
Unlagged "first appeared" in Tremulous at the beginning of last December (and by "first appeared", I assume you mean "was committed to svn"). This was after my r838 qvm was initially "released" (some servers were running it before then). It was also shortly before Risujin released his "Risujin/Avenger" qvm.
I'm not too sure about who uses what now, but I'd guess a large number still use one of Risujin's qvms, with a good number going over to Lakitu7's (which was not released until May of this year) and a very small fraction running their own code.
So this leads me to believe your statistics are wrong.
1 month after unlagged was committed
approximately 0% of "serious" public servers had unlagged
now (8 months later)
approximately ?% of "serious" public servers have unlagged (too lazy to query all the servers to see which have "g_unlagged" set at all, and those with "g_unlagged" set to a non-0 value).
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If you want your statistics to stand up well, you need to define what "serious" public servers exactly are. I think a suitable definition would go along the lines of 'Frequently used' and/or 'Well thought of' (whether or not many people hold it in high regard). These two description would also be based of statistical evidence.
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Unlagged off: 32
Unlagged on: 45
Counting all servers with g_unlagged.
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What about those servers with g_serious I keep hearing about, David? They sound awesome.
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g_serious is a new anti-lousy server program. Whenever a high-pinging person connects to a server, if g_serious is active, the server will reposition that person to a buiding local to the server; will remolecularise his PC into a supercomputer and replace his brain with someone's who has played tremulous for 200 years longer than the game has been out.
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Unlagged off: 32
Unlagged on: 45
Counting all servers with g_unlagged.
Are you sure you didn't reverse those numbers? This is what I get.
invalid, har har (read on)
I'll probably check again later and see if the numbers change substantially.
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Heres the script I used:
#!/bin/bash
trap 'rm $TMP_FILE' EXIT
TMP_FILE=$(mktemp)
quakestat -tremulousm master.tremulous.net -progress -R | grep g_unlagged > $TMP_FILE
echo Unlagged off: $(grep g_unlagged=0 $TMP_FILE | wc -l)
echo Unlagged on: $(grep -v g_unlagged=0 $TMP_FILE | wc -l)
Output:
202/202 (23 timed out, 1 down) 13 servers/sec
Unlagged off: 33
Unlagged on: 45
It basically counts how many have the string 'g_unlagged=0' and assumes all else have it on...
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Man, David pwns at scripts. I can barely read that... can't imagine being able to write them bash scripts.
Also, logically, I don't see anything wrong with it. Not really a professional though.
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It basically counts how many have the string 'g_unlagged=0' and assumes all else have it on...
Here's the problem. You've wrongly assumed that all servers that don't have g_unlagged 0 must have g_unlagged 1. As Undeference accounted for in his more thorough search, 11 servers don't support unlagged and so wouldn't have the string g_unlagged 0 or g_unlagged 1.
You could have just assumed that only those WITH the string g_unlagged 1 would have it. This is a perfectly sensible assumption and would have gotten you the correct result.
Also, Undeference has gone one step further in adding usage statistics (based on whether they have more than 0 people at that time, presummably). Thanks Undeference!
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Mine only counted ones that had g_unlagged set, and as !0 = on, its right. I think.
Also, you can note that it only counts one with g_unlagged set by the fact that it says 200 servers, and then only lists ~80
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lalala... okay, you were right. i just had my conditions reversed :oops:
Value '200' treated as on ({tHc} Steroide)
Value '150' treated as on ({tHc} public)
Value '400' treated as on (experimental)
Value '1000' treated as on ((!) Server)
OCCUPIED EMPTY TOTAL
Timed out - - 26
Unsupported 21 83 104
Enabled 15 31 46
Disabled 7 22 29
Servers 43 136 205what's with servers with weird values for g_unlagged? those values will all be treated as on by the server (if the server supports it), but they could be lying ('sets g_unlagged 1000').
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So there are still a large number of servers that don't know what unlagged is, but of those that do, most have it on.
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I think a really old version used that for how long to roll back or something...
Also, what did you use to make that?
The output looks too nice for a quickly hacked up script...
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Also, what did you use to make that?
The output looks too nice for a quickly hacked up script...
well, it is kinda a quickly hacked up script, right smack in the middle of a bigger program where it really does not belong.
i made it with a bunch of little dependencies i wrote before. one of the dependencies i didn't use for it is for pretty printing (http://betaserv.tk/gallery/6233efb54f1ba3a8ff9d199b391a15f5c55b9ea6). the output you saw just uses tabs
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lalala... okay, you were right. i just had my conditions reversed :oops:
Value '200' treated as on ({tHc} Steroide)
Value '150' treated as on ({tHc} public)
Value '400' treated as on (experimental)
Value '1000' treated as on ((!) Server)
OCCUPIED EMPTY TOTAL
Timed out - - 26
Unsupported 21 83 104
Enabled 15 31 46
Disabled 7 22 29
Servers 43 136 205what's with servers with weird values for g_unlagged? those values will all be treated as on by the server (if the server supports it), but they could be lying ('sets g_unlagged 1000').
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So there are still a large number of servers that don't know what unlagged is, but of those that do, most have it on.
the wraths qvm limits the rewind to g_unlagged.integer milliseconds at most.