Tremulous Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: tehOen on July 21, 2007, 10:17:35 am

Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 21, 2007, 10:17:35 am
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1438/dscrapud7.png)
I didnt asked for svn or help. Providing a patch does not take 6 months.
It is not illegal but it shows how much respect you have for Tremulous
Title: Re: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: NiTRoX on July 21, 2007, 10:40:10 am
Quote from: "tehOen"
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1438/dscrapud7.png)
I didnt asked for svn or help. Providing a patch does not take 6 months.
It is not illegal but it shows how much respect you have for Tremulous


you're point ish?
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: khalsa on July 21, 2007, 03:14:35 pm
His point is that Ghostshell was and still is highly inconsiderate towards Tremulous and the Tremulous community by not releasing the source to his patches. I actually think it's a good thing though because most of his changes are retarded, and it's good that they only run on one retarded server, instead of a whole bunch.

Let them do what they want, what they play is not Tremulous.


Khalsa
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: NiTRoX on July 21, 2007, 06:13:46 pm
Quote from: "khalsa"
His point is that Ghostshell was and still is highly inconsiderate towards Tremulous and the Tremulous community by not releasing the source to his patches. I actually think it's a good thing though because most of his changes are retarded, and it's good that they only run on one retarded server, instead of a whole bunch.

Let them do what they want, what they play is not Tremulous.


Khalsa


O.....k........
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 21, 2007, 07:09:48 pm
aside from what they did to luci, and that rampage bs, i like d*s mod...
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Oblivion on July 21, 2007, 09:01:49 pm
Quote from: "khalsa"
His point is that Ghostshell was and still is highly inconsiderate towards Tremulous and the Tremulous community by not releasing the source to his patches. I actually think it's a good thing though because most of his changes are retarded, and it's good that they only run on one retarded server, instead of a whole bunch.

Let them do what they want, what they play is not Tremulous.


Khalsa

Not here to cause any shit, it seems that the mod is very very popular and it attracts lots of people, just cause you don't get your way does not mean you have to whine about it.  You may think that what he did was retarded but I have to say he did a damn good job to what he did, I do not agree with some of the shit he did, but the mod seems very nice to me.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 21, 2007, 09:14:01 pm
isnt ghostshells brother devilfrog or something like that the one that actually codes all this crap and then ghost just takes credit for it...?

i thought i heard this somewhere

and oblivion, im pretty sure d*s is only popular because

1. its at the top of the server list
2. it seems to give almost everyone a good ping
3. it has a fairly low skill level, and a fairly high playercount, making it an optimal place to just run around killwhoring
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: temple on July 21, 2007, 09:22:48 pm
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
isnt ghostshells brother devilfrog or something like that the one that actually codes all this crap and then ghost just takes credit for it...?

I think its the other way around.  I think his brother hosts the shit and Ghost is the tech guy.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Odin on July 21, 2007, 09:28:15 pm
Quote from: "Oblivion"
Quote from: "khalsa"
His point is that Ghostshell was and still is highly inconsiderate towards Tremulous and the Tremulous community by not releasing the source to his patches. I actually think it's a good thing though because most of his changes are retarded, and it's good that they only run on one retarded server, instead of a whole bunch.

Let them do what they want, what they play is not Tremulous.


Khalsa

Not here to cause any shit, it seems that the mod is very very popular and it attracts lots of people, just cause you don't get your way does not mean you have to whine about it.  You may think that what he did was retarded but I have to say he did a damn good job to what he did, I do not agree with some of the shit he did, but the mod seems very nice to me.
Yea not to mention denying the source code is a violation of the GNU General Public License v2, which Tremulous is covered under. If you make a modification, you must provide the source code. No exceptions.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: kevlarman on July 21, 2007, 09:31:36 pm
Quote from: "Odin"
Yea not to mention denying the source code is a violation of the GNU General Public License v2, which Tremulous is covered under. If you make a modification, you must provide the source code. No exceptions.
wrong, tremulous is not covered by the affero gpl, they are under no responsibility to distribute modifications if they don't distribute binaries.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: _Equilibrium_ on July 21, 2007, 10:22:54 pm
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
aside from what they did to luci, and that rampage bs, i like d*s mod...
what did they do to the luci?
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 21, 2007, 11:08:11 pm
secondary fire is 30 ammo

every time you see a tyrant, you charge up a shot, and it runs away, you have to remember not to hit secondary because instead of blowing 8-9 ammo, youll waste 30.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: doomagent13 on July 21, 2007, 11:59:19 pm
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
secondary fire is 30 ammo

every time you see a tyrant, you charge up a shot, and it runs away, you have to remember not to hit secondary because instead of blowing 8-9 ammo, youll waste 30.
THAT IS FUCKED UP!!!!

I hope that to compensate, either bsuits need like 10 hits from tyr or that 30 ammo shot knocks the target all the way back to base.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 22, 2007, 12:05:12 am
nope, its a normal secondary shot. it just costs 30x more because ghost is ... "special"

evilz tried to tell me it was to reduce camping and spamming it, because apparently people would sit in base in teams and spam up hallways with secondary and you couldnt get through >_>

i told him to just nerf the secondary shot to like dealing 15 damage, and change it back to 1 ammo, but nope...
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: _Equilibrium_ on July 22, 2007, 02:28:26 am
heh. i never use secondary anyway.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 22, 2007, 02:44:05 am
i always use it to save my ammo :(
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Fluxflashor on July 22, 2007, 03:18:49 am
On this topic of people complaining about a server, I have a couple things to say being a server owner myself.

To all those who play on servers you do not own: DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE WAY SERVERS HAVE THINGS SET!

Ive seen all these people complain about ping, or the people are to skilled, or SD comes to quick. Who makes you play in these servers?

To everyone who doens't like D*S and their Mod, simply don't play there. Sure its convenient to just click near the top of the list, but why not scroll down a bit and find a server YOU like.

It seems stupid, no one makes you play in a server, so why play if your not going to be ok with a mod. Quit fucking complaining.

I realize im repeating a bit, but it is to stress the fact that no one forces you to play in a server so you shouldn't be complaining.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Death On Ice on July 22, 2007, 05:45:18 am
I pm'd GhostShell in-game, with about the same result: he was overly rude, and refused to "Do me a favor" because he "Didn't know me".  I asked him why he wouldn't do me the favor, he simply replied "I don't do favors for people I don't know."
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Odin on July 22, 2007, 08:52:56 am
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
nope, its a normal secondary shot. it just costs 30x more because ghost is ... "special"

evilz tried to tell me it was to reduce camping and spamming it, because apparently people would sit in base in teams and spam up hallways with secondary and you couldnt get through >_>

i told him to just nerf the secondary shot to like dealing 15 damage, and change it back to 1 ammo, but nope...
Why not lock the secondary attack while the first is being held?
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: gareth on July 22, 2007, 06:18:02 pm
im with ghostshell on this one, he has every right to ignore or be rude to such whiney zealots (not that ive seen any evidence he _was_ rude).
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 22, 2007, 08:11:38 pm
As many of you have said before, he's a server owner, and he can do whatever he damn well pleases in his server. If you don't like it, shuttup and don't go there.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 22, 2007, 08:24:28 pm
Quote from: "gareth"
im with ghostshell on this one, he has every right to ignore or be rude to such whiney zealots (not that ive seen any evidence he _was_ rude).


Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
As many of you have said before, he's a server owner, and he can do whatever he damn well pleases in his server. If you don't like it, shuttup and don't go there.


Quote from: "tehOen"
It is not illegal but it shows how much respect you have for Tremulous
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 22, 2007, 11:03:45 pm
He's making it, doesn't that show he has respect for Tremulous? He didnt seem too rude in his post either. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps he is telling the truth and your assumptions, and they are only assumptions, are wrong? Probably not, because if you were wrong, you'd look like a complete and total ass, wouldn't you? Just hack his harddrive and rip the source.  :roll:

I don't mind their server, but damn to their forums piss me off. I don't like how the subject automatically changes to the first five or so words of the post. Bugs me shitless. But, let's not turn this (more-so) into a  "Let's Flame D*S" topic.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tuple on July 23, 2007, 01:54:43 am
So don't play there.  It's not tremulous anyways, so no lose.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Mad_Joe on July 23, 2007, 02:48:45 am
Wow, I'm VERY surprised that ghostshell won't release his source code to a bunch of whiney D*S-bashers. Seriously people, ghostshell is trying to make playing Tremulous a better experience; don't bash him for making changes just because you like them. ghostshell's reply in the original post doesn't strike me as exceedingly rude. In fact, what seems rude is the brief request (more like a demand) for the source code. Maybe next time, at least bother to type out "Thank you" when asking him to release something that he has spent a good deal of time working on and is (presumably) very important to him.

As for other requests for the source that he supposedly responded rudely too: ghostshell is probably bombarded with these, and it's only a matter of time before his replies start sounding annoyed and even rude. If he doesn't want to release his source right now, leave him be.

This just occurred to me... why do you want the source so bad if you hate the mod?
Title: good one, mad joe!
Post by: player1 on July 23, 2007, 05:11:09 am
shit-stirrer with a long-handled spoon, perhaps?
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Confess on July 23, 2007, 06:37:32 am
How about this: It is his code. He spent hours writing it (or had someone do it for him). He's spent hours working on D*S. They are his modifications, and not yours. He, in no sense, legal or moral, has to give them out. If you think that by posting here you'll get it faster, or period for that matter, you are wrong. If I was him, I wouldnt let you have the source for the simple fact that you attempted to back him into a corner. To me, your actions honestly sound like that of a jerk. It seems as though your attempt was to start a flame war against ghostshell. You say that he 'doesnt have much respect for tremulous'...When, in all truth, he has probably done more for tremulous then you have or will ever.
Title: you go, Confess!
Post by: player1 on July 23, 2007, 06:53:52 am
Quote from: "Confess"
How about this: It is his code. He spent hours writing it (or had someone do it for him). He's spent hours working on D*S. They are his modifications, and not yours. He, in no sense, legal or moral, has to give them out. If you think that by posting here you'll get it faster, or period for that matter, you are wrong. If I was him, I wouldnt let you have the source for the simple fact that you attempted to back him into a corner. To me, your actions honestly sound like that of a jerk. It seems as though your attempt was to start a flame war against ghostshell. You say that he 'doesnt have much respect for tremulous'...When, in all truth, he has probably done more for tremulous then you have or will ever.


QF-freakin'-T, baby!
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 23, 2007, 10:08:19 am
Quote from: "Confess"
How about this: It is his code. He spent hours writing it (or had someone do it for him). He's spent hours working on D*S. They are his modifications, and not yours. He, in no sense, legal or moral, has to give them out. If you think that by posting here you'll get it faster, or period for that matter, you are wrong. If I was him, I wouldnt let you have the source for the simple fact that you attempted to back him into a corner. To me, your actions honestly sound like that of a jerk. It seems as though your attempt was to start a flame war against ghostshell. You say that he 'doesnt have much respect for tremulous'...When, in all truth, he has probably done more for tremulous then you have or will ever.


what about the tremulous code
it is based on quake3 source code is dedicated to public
timbo also coded lots of things for ioquake3 and tremulous
and lots of other people made contributions
they spent hours? days? years?
and all this code belongs to the public
now you say that "He's spent hours working on D*S. They are his modifications, and not yours."

and fyi I don't even know what the modifications are, so I dont want his code for myself but everyone
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Taiyo.uk on July 23, 2007, 11:27:03 am
That still does not mean that there are any legal or social obligations to release the code. To clarify, there are no legal obligations because creating a closed-source mod does not violate the GPL since the mod does not include tremulous or IOQ3 code. There are no social obligations since the licensing terms of the code are the decision of the copyright holder(s), and not "everyone's".

Quote from: "tehOen"
what about the tremulous code
it is based on quake3 source code is dedicated to public
timbo also coded lots of things for ioquake3 and tremulous
and lots of other people made contributions

True. This is however completely irrelevant to whether the code to a mod should be released to the public.

Quote from: "tehOen"
they spent hours? days? years?

Years. Many years.

Quote from: "tehOen"
and all this code belongs to the public

No it does not. If you read the copyright notices in the code, the code belongs to the authors. Remember, IOQ3 and tremulous code are released under the GPL. It is NOT in the public domain.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Hxaltai on July 23, 2007, 11:55:21 am
Quote from: "Taiyo.uk"
That still does not mean that there are any legal or social obligations to release the code. To clarify, there are no legal obligations because creating a closed-source mod does not violate the GPL since the mod does not include tremulous or IOQ3 code. There are no social obligations since the licensing terms of the code are the decision of the copyright holder(s), and not "everyone's".

Creating a closed-source mod does not violate the GPL IF the mod does not include tremulous code, but I'd imagine most mods are not written from scratch but as derived works of tremulous' GPL'd qvms.
That said, as previously noted by someone, the author of the mod is not distributing the game.qvm. Should the mod make use of a derived cgame.qvm/ui.qvm, source to them would need to be released as they are distributed to every connecting client, but it's not the case here.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 23, 2007, 03:11:50 pm
Quote from: "Taiyo.uk"
utter crap I dunno shit


afaik once it is GPL it belongs to the public. They cant change it but they can release another one and give it under another license. or they can give the same version under another license. but it is not the case they released quake3 under GPL. no one has the right to change the license of GPL'd quake3 it will always stay as GPL. so it belongs to the public. the original creaters can release other non GPL versions but it wont affect the status of GPL'd quake3
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Taiyo.uk on July 23, 2007, 03:49:49 pm
FYI: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

As you can see, public property (i.e. code released into the public domain) and GPL'd code are two very different things.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: NiTRoX on July 23, 2007, 04:49:43 pm
Quote from: "TehOen"
Quote from: "Taiyo.uk "
utter crap I dunno shit


afaik once it is GPL it belongs to the public. They cant change it but they can release another one and give it under another license. or they can give the same version under another license. but it is not the case they released quake3 under GPL. no one has the right to change the license of GPL'd quake3 it will always stay as GPL. so it belongs to the public. the original creaters can release other non GPL versions but it wont affect the status of GPL'd quake3


Quote from: "Taiyo.uk"
FYI: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

As you can see, public property (i.e. code released into the public domain) and GPL'd code are two very different things.


Quote from: "Free Software Foundation"
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 3, 29 June 2007


Quote from: "[color=red
N[/color]itrox"]Faggots


@ TehOen:
(http://www.filgifts.com/images/product/small/Barney_LoveNLightsHeart.jpg)
@ Taiyo.uk
(http://www.chrisabraham.com/iloveyounicetomeetyou.jpg)
@Tremulous Community:
(http://home.swbell.net/moonshad/heart-fark.gif)
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Taiyo.uk on July 23, 2007, 05:08:12 pm
?
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: David on July 23, 2007, 05:11:03 pm
Quote from: "Taiyo.uk"
FYI: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

As you can see, public property (i.e. code released into the public domain) and GPL'd code are two very different things.


If it were public domain, he could do what he wants, but its not, its GPLv2, so he is bound by the GPL.

As it is, he doesn't have to release the source, but if he ever gives someone a binary with it, then he does.

So until he starts distributing binarys with no source, I couldn't give a fuck.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 23, 2007, 05:48:16 pm
Let's bitch at every map maker that doesn't release their .map next, shall we?

Quote from: "TehOen"
Utter crap, I don't know shit"


This is a sensless, not to mention baseless, flame against GhostShell for not releasing something because he doesn't have to nor does he want to at the moment. Your whining, bitching, and moaning isn't going to make him want to release it any faster, either. From what I can see in that screenshot, you used chatspeak, which could be considered rude in such a "serious" request, while he responded in a polite fashion, taking the time to spell out all his words, and give you a definite answer.

As I have said before, he took the time to make it, that means he does respect Tremulous and it's community.

As Confess said, well, let me just put a huge fucking quote here:
Quote
How about this: It is his code. He spent hours writing it (or had someone do it for him). He's spent hours working on D*S. They are his modifications, and not yours. He, in no sense, legal or moral, has to give them out. If you think that by posting here you'll get it faster, or period for that matter, you are wrong. If I was him, I wouldnt let you have the source for the simple fact that you attempted to back him into a corner. To me, your actions honestly sound like that of a jerk. It seems as though your attempt was to start a flame war against ghostshell. You say that he 'doesnt have much respect for tremulous'...When, in all truth, he has probably done more for tremulous then you have or will ever.


Go bitch at the many (ex)servers with modifications (Banana's Unlimited had whacked out granger spit) who don't release their code. Hey, it's a mod, and they're not giving us their code, they must be assholes!

As I've said, your argument is baseless, not to mention flawed in countless ways. That and the fact that it is completely and totally wrong. He doesn't have to release his code if he doesn't want to. He said he'll release it in time, and goddammit he will. He's perfecting it before he releases it, hes ironing out the balance changes, and he's fixing it up. Let him work, and stop fucking annoying him. You'll be lucky if he ever releases the code after your badgering.

I'm sensing a patern here:
http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5552
Are you bitching out Timbo and the rest of the Tremulous devs for not giving us the code for 1.2 yet? Oh my god, they're running but one server with it, but they're keeping the source from us. They have to give us the source.

@NiTrOx - Please, don't become the next PFB. -_-;;
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 23, 2007, 05:53:56 pm
Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
I am a troll and I have no idea what I am talking about. I just post to increase my post count


then STFU
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: NiTRoX on July 23, 2007, 06:20:52 pm
Quote from: "[size=18px
P[/size]lague F Bringer"]@NiTrOx - Please, don't become the next PFB. -_-;;


Don't worry, I don't like men anyways.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 23, 2007, 06:30:20 pm
TehOen, please don't insult me and ignore my point complety. You make me want to spam and grief you. Take a look at my post, along with the other posts here, and rethink your position in this argument. Stop proving my point that this forum is full of immature brats who can't hold a serious conversation for a few posts. Stay serious, rather, get serious, and before you insult me, read what I write, perhaps I made a point or two. But most importantly, grow up.

You too, NiTRoX.

@TehOen- And don't make me release a real screenshot of Timbo's PM inbox proving that you did spam him about the release of 1.2. He's got his PM's sorted weird, though.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: stalefries on July 23, 2007, 08:50:51 pm
Disclaimer: I know very little about coding, and I have no idea exactly how mods work in Trem. With that out of the way...

Quote from: "Taiyo.uk"
That still does not mean that there are any legal or social obligations to release the code. To clarify, there are no legal obligations because creating a closed-source mod does not violate the GPL since the mod does not include tremulous or IOQ3 code.


But, there are legal obligations. Any program that links to a GPL program (in this case, a mod) must be released under the terms of the GPL also. This is why they created the LGPL; so that they could make libraries that anyone could use, without having to open-source their own code.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: benmachine on July 23, 2007, 10:52:40 pm
I don't think anyone is trying to say that he is legally obliged to release, but it is the opinion of some people that to not release is mere selfishness, a frustration compounded by the fact that he doesn't really stand to gain from withholding it so it is really quite hard to understand why he keeps it from us.

Once more:

it is the opinion of some people

you all shouting at each other won't achieve shit.
(not that it ever does)
Title: Deja Vu'
Post by: ghostshell on July 27, 2007, 08:50:59 am
I don't read this forum as much as I would like, but someone said there were questions *again* about my server mods. I'm not sure why people even want or care about my mods because they are very simple and specific. But the truth is that the D*S servers are community driven (our website members) and I add/remove stuff when there's a consensus to do so. Other stuff I add selfishly because I like to tinker with stuff and test ideas. An example of crazy stuff I work on: add a mysql backend for user/ban maintenance. Who would use something like that besides me? No to mention that releasing stuff means that you (unknowingly and implicitly) have to make yourself available for questions/whines/criticism. Who has time for that? :) I'd rather be coding and playing games.

Btw, before you start throwing GPL and community and such, please get a clue. The GPL is not communism or a license to be a dick. The authors have rights and they are only required to release sources if they distribute a product based on GPL-licensed source. In legal terms this is called sand-boxing property. You can play alone in your sandbox as much as you want, but if you invite other kids to play, they must use your sand. I hope the juvenile metaphor helps with the understanding of the legalese (you should read the messages I get).

And please, keep my family out. They are not responsible for the messes I make :) If you really want to know me, send me an email or something.

(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9893/8147letspretendpostersri5.th.jpg) (http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8147letspretendpostersri5.jpg)
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tuple on July 27, 2007, 01:43:42 pm
Actually, I'd be very interested in a mysql backend for users/bans! GIMME GIMME GIMME! :D

Plague Bringer, the code for TJW's server is publicly available, how do you think I got the }MG{MercenariesGuild server to run it?  You do actually have to look for it though, it's not PM'd to all forum members  :roll: Not only is the code publicly available, but if you've ever played there you even have a copy of the graphic changes in .tremulous/tjw in the form of a pk3.  The patch file in there is old though (you know, the actual patch to make the TJW changes! ) so you need to go here (http://tjw.org/tremulous-current/) to get the current one.  It took me a huge amount of work to find it, requiring ONE question in irc.

Ghostshell, I like you, but your server drives me insane  8) I personally have a somewhat irrational hatred of the thing were everyone becomes tyrants/bsuits, camps for a few minutes and then all the aliens die where they stand  :x  For me its like being at a great party that ends by being busted by the cops, somewhat exhilarating, but you still wish it wouldn't have happened.  So, there is my completely unbiased description of it  :P  

Back to the important stuff.  A patch to store admins/bans in a mysql backend has great potential uses.  Sadly, my C skills are pretty much equivalent to my knowledge of sanskrit, and it isn't a language that is presently useful for work, so I haven't been able to justify the time spent learning it (learning python now, which I <3 )  Putting admins/bans in a DB backend I suspect would help this idea (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5648&start=60) quite a bit.  I've also had an idea for sharing bans and potentially admins in another way, an idea which I go into incredibly boring detail here (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=80643&highlight=mysql#80643) (that last one really only requires a mysql backend! )  I have no doubt that there are lots (http://www.mercenariesguild.net/patches/) of ideas which you could benefit, and benefit from.

I understand you may want to hold some of your server changes close to the vest, but some of your backend changes may grow (or be fixed :P )  in novel and unforseen ways were you to release them.

edit: Hmm, if you're just parsing admin.dat, storing the info in mysql, then writing to it and refering to it as necessary...
Holy crap, I think I could do that! cool.  Release anyways! :P
Wow, thanks for the inspiration.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: David on July 27, 2007, 01:56:21 pm
Also, if you release it, say if you don't want to be bugged about it and most people will have the decency to not bug you.

Also, if you release stuff people will help you! (And like you).

Like tuple said, mysql support could be very useful for a lot of people, so please do release if you get it working (or even if you dont)
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 27, 2007, 02:40:03 pm
http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7376&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: David on July 27, 2007, 03:00:32 pm
Quote from: "tehOen"
though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail


Why?
Lots of servers already run MySQL and Apache for tremstats.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tuple on July 27, 2007, 03:35:32 pm
Quote from: "tehOen"
http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7376&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail


This assumes
A. That that is the plan
and
B. That mysql and tremded are not already running on the same box successfully.

Also, there is an implied assumption that the tremded process would communicate directly with the DB, which may not be needed (see my edit above).
It may be that all we need is a patch that does readconfig before each map change to prevent a write to admin.dat by an external process that is lost when the map changes prior to the external process running a readconfig, or points to the new admin.dat.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 27, 2007, 03:38:47 pm
Quote from: "David"
Quote from: "tehOen"
though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail


Why?
Lots of servers already run MySQL and Apache for tremstats.

OMG LAG LOL
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: David on July 27, 2007, 03:43:43 pm
Get a real server?
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 27, 2007, 03:50:57 pm
Quote from: "David"
Get a real server?

I dont think they are unreal
mysql is a resource hungry bitch
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: David on July 27, 2007, 03:55:27 pm
mysql is a 'resource hungry bitch' if you decide to do joins between tables with millions of tuples (snigger).

if all its doing is a "Select * from USERS where GUID=X" every time someone joins, then its no problem.
Title: mysql backend
Post by: ghostshell on July 27, 2007, 06:33:36 pm
i have two main reasons for doing this: handle large number of users and store permanent data directly from the game. Sure, I could just dump strings to the log and parse the log afterwards (which I do now), but the information is not realtime and it's lost when players disconnect. with a db backend, i could store session info and restore it when the player gets back. of course, this will work only for guid'ed clients. although the idea has evolved from the last time i suggested, it's the ground work for a sophisticated XP system.

The original idea (has changed somewhat now, but it's close to this):
http://dretchstorm.com/node/752

just having a db backend opens a world of in-game possibilities. *head explodes*

if enough people agree this would benefit tremulous as a whole, i'd be happy to donate my work when it's semi-usable. although i think this should be more of an ioq3 patch, so that all games could benefit from it.

@tuple:
we hate games that end in draw, that's why we have Rampage :P after playing for 45mins, it's a bit disappointing when nobody wins. Rampage is meant as a compliment to Sudden Death. SD favors aliens mostly (proven statistically), Rampage favors humans.
Title: Re: mysql backend
Post by: kevlarman on July 27, 2007, 06:50:07 pm
Quote from: "ghostshell"
i have two main reasons for doing this: handle large number of users and store permanent data directly from the game. Sure, I could just dump strings to the log and parse the log afterwards (which I do now), but the information is not realtime and it's lost when players disconnect. with a db backend, i could store session info and restore it when the player gets back. of course, this will work only for guid'ed clients. although the idea has evolved from the last time i suggested, it's the ground work for a sophisticated XP system.

The original idea (has changed somewhat now, but it's close to this):
http://dretchstorm.com/node/752

just having a db backend opens a world of in-game possibilities. *head explodes*

if enough people agree this would benefit tremulous as a whole, i'd be happy to donate my work when it's semi-usable. although i think this should be more of an ioq3 patch, so that all games could benefit from it.

@tuple:
we hate games that end in draw, that's why we have Rampage :P after playing for 45mins, it's a bit disappointing when nobody wins. Rampage is meant as a compliment to Sudden Death. SD favors aliens mostly (proven statistically), Rampage favors humans.
first of all, rampage is lame (so is sd, but it's sorta required, if you really want to make less games end in draw, take 50 hp off of tyrant so humans can *gasp* leave their base at alien s3, i've had countless games where humans were dominating, on the brink of victory, then the aliens get s3 and there is no way for the humans to get past the wall of tyrants). second of all, timbo and tjw are extremely reluctant to add client and server patches to tremulous directly (the only 2 that have been made so far are the rearrangement of the syscalls and 8 bit generic1->16 bit generic1), ioq3 will probably have issues with the patch because it introduces a new dependency (mysql) but it probably can work if you do it similarly to how libcurl is loaded now, and the biggest issue is that it looks like it will need either a new syscall for it to be used by the game code (not gonna happen) or moving (parts of)g_admin to the server binary. (and you might have better luck with sqllite than mysql, if you're really interested in getting the patch accepted you should ask tjw and timbo about what can and can't go into ioq3 more specifically)
Title: Re: mysql backend
Post by: tuple on July 27, 2007, 07:33:34 pm
Quote from: "ghostshell"

@tuple:
we hate games that end in draw, that's why we have Rampage :P after playing for 45mins, it's a bit disappointing when nobody wins. Rampage is meant as a compliment to Sudden Death. SD favors aliens mostly (proven statistically), Rampage favors humans.


I guess as I see it, as soon as rampage mode starts, the game has effectively ended in a draw as the game is fundamentally changed, and is no longer the match you were playing.  With that other mode after rampage were aliens suffer damage till death, humans only have to camp to win.  I'd rather play to a draw against a tough opponent than have it end in some illusion of a match.  Part of the strategy of tremulous is to starve your opponent bit by bit, the rampage washes that away.  Many strategies up used up till SD vanish the moment rampage starts, changing it to a different game.  I suspect we will have to agree to disagree, and I will need to continue playing on other servers.  The frustration for me is just not worth it. :)
Title: Re: mysql backend
Post by: tehOen on July 27, 2007, 07:33:53 pm
Quote from: "ghostshell"
bla bla bla
just having a db backend opens a world of in-game possibilities. *head explodes*

if enough people agree this would benefit tremulous as a whole, i'd be happy to donate my work when it's semi-usable. although i think this should be more of an ioq3 patch, so that all games could benefit from it.

at least dont lie to yourself. You will not release anything. I know it as I know my name.
Title: Re: mysql backend
Post by: player1 on July 27, 2007, 07:43:44 pm
Quote from: "tehOen"
I know it as I know my name.


which one? :roll:

aliaswhore :P

lol, j/k, f0rqu3/bioxtc/vcxzet :eek:
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 27, 2007, 07:45:03 pm
theOne*
Title: Re: mysql backend
Post by: ghostshell on July 27, 2007, 07:59:00 pm
Quote from: "tuple"
I guess as I see it, as soon as rampage mode starts, the game has effectively ended in a draw as the game is fundamentally changed, and is no longer the match you were playing.  With that other mode after rampage were aliens suffer damage till death, humans only have to camp to win.  I'd rather play to a draw against a tough opponent than have it end in some illusion of a match.  Part of the strategy of tremulous is to starve your opponent bit by bit, the rampage washes that away.  Many strategies up used up till SD vanish the moment rampage starts, changing it to a different game.  I suspect we will have to agree to disagree, and I will need to continue playing on other servers.  The frustration for me is just not worth it. :)


Not exactly, it's impossible for the game to end as draw. As it is now, most humans camp until they get S2, then aliens camp until they get S3, then humans camp until and during SD. If aliens have enough tyrants and adv. goons when SD arrives, they most likely won the game. Rampage levels the play field. There are no bases to protect and no team is guaranteed victory. The bsuits get auto heal and radar, which bring them up a notch to the level of tyrants (which of course the entire alien team will use). Rampage only lasts 5 minutes, taking the game to 60m. After 1 hour of playing, I consider that "enough" and bring the last plague from Egypt, which is the other mode you mentioned - Total Annihilation. This is basically poison for everyone alive, no regen to anyone. This will make the game last exactly 50seconds more. When TA arrives, no team is guaranteed victory. Cojones determines the winner. Hiding in a vent won't help. Of course, this turn of the Tremulous story is entirely plausible. The humans developed better bsuits (they have the technology) which they get @ Rampage. But the radiation from manufacturing them (or delivery) affected some native plants and they released a natural toxin to the environment as means of self preservation. So Aliens vs Humans have a new enemy: Alien Lettuce.

Like I said in my previous post, our changes are community-driven and tested. Most people love Rampage, some hate it, but still play it. It's specially fun when there's 2-3 players vs a full team and the underdog wins. It's like watching a gladiator match. I never intended|suggested|imagined|aspired for this mod to ever in a 1000 eons to make it to the main game. This is just what we do for fun. The original and basic rules of the game are still in place, just the end has been altered. The phrase "Timelimit hit" and its lack of closure, will never touch our server.
Title: take a look at this...
Post by: player1 on July 27, 2007, 08:15:56 pm
My endgame idea (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4526&highlight=rewards).

Silly, ain't I? :P
Title: Re: mysql backend
Post by: tehOen on July 27, 2007, 08:26:57 pm
Quote from: "player1"
Quote from: "tehOen"
I know it as I know my name.

which one?



stupid you
of course my real name. I was sure someone would fall into that
Title: Re: mysql backend
Post by: temple on July 27, 2007, 10:58:06 pm
Quote from: "ghostshell"
Rampage

I respect your code and ideas.

But D*S is mostly camping and /callvote reducetime in order to force rampage because people can't attack a base.  I don't even know the point of playing half the time because camping/callvoting is pretty much not enjoying the game.

Or worst, /callvote extendtime.  When I see that, its time to drop.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: St. Anger on July 27, 2007, 11:18:06 pm
If it wasn't for me constantly getting kicked/banned from them thinking i hack I would definitely enjoy the server >.>
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: temple on July 28, 2007, 12:04:50 am
Quote from: "St. Anger"
If it wasn't for me constantly getting kicked/banned from them thinking i hack I would definitely enjoy the server >.>

Stick to 1 name.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 28, 2007, 12:12:09 am
Quote from: "temple"
Quote from: "St. Anger"
If it wasn't for me constantly getting kicked/banned from them thinking i hack I would definitely enjoy the server >.>

Stick to 1 name.
Who gives a crap?
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: St. Anger on July 28, 2007, 01:12:39 am
Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
Quote from: "temple"
Quote from: "St. Anger"
If it wasn't for me constantly getting kicked/banned from them thinking i hack I would definitely enjoy the server >.>

Stick to 1 name.
Who gives a crap?


"This community's maturity, along with it's behaviour and manors is in a state of sever decay. Show some respect."- Spam Bringer

 :roll:
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: benmachine on July 28, 2007, 02:23:05 am
lol, my manor is certainly in a state of decay. Gotta get someone in to repaint the roof, but it's murder what they're charging these days.

/me desperately hopes no-one made that joke the first time around

edit: btw, my first comment still stands. so much hot air in this forum.
Title: Re: my backend
Post by: player1 on July 28, 2007, 07:06:31 am
Quote from: "tehOen"
Quote from: "player1"
Quote from: "tehOen"
I know it as I know my name.

which one?



stupid me
I'm even modifying my real alias. I was sure someone would fall into that


now u can masturbate successfully
knowing how ur grand scheme was so successful
enjoy the ceiling-spackling session
"O mirror, am I not the trolliest one of all?"

@beerbitch: It seems to be rolling along nicely. Good luck!
Title: Re: my backend
Post by: tehOen on July 28, 2007, 10:27:39 am
Quote from: "player1"
...

NOOB!
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 28, 2007, 03:00:05 pm
Quote from: "St. Anger"
Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
Quote from: "temple"
Quote from: "St. Anger"
If it wasn't for me constantly getting kicked/banned from them thinking i hack I would definitely enjoy the server >.>

Stick to 1 name.
Who gives a crap?


"This community's maturity, along with it's behaviour and manors is in a state of sever decay. Show some respect."- Spam Bringer

 :roll:
It's Plague Bringer you disrespectful -bah, as hard as I try there's nothing that's not rude and isnt a word a second grader would use that I can put here-. And you deserved that, so don't dog me on it. Now that that's done. Seriously, who cares if you have more than one account? And what gives? I was defending you.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tuple on July 28, 2007, 03:12:32 pm
This topic is gonna be locked really quickly if you all can't figure out how to stay on topic and have your little pissing contests elsewhere.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Mad_Joe on July 29, 2007, 01:28:15 am
Back to the topic...

Once again, we come to this astonishing fact: you don't have to play on the server. If you don't like rampage or TA, quit annoying those who do and go play somewhere else. It's not like in rampage and TA all skill is moot... generally the best players still win.

I do sympathize, however, with the above comment about extendtime and reducetime votes, but I have the same feelings about sudden death votes, and many other servers use that.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 29, 2007, 04:43:53 pm
That's not the topic, the topic is that Ghostshell isn't reducing his code and tehOen is bitching because he wants it.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 29, 2007, 05:08:45 pm
Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
That's not the topic, the topic is that Ghostshell isn't reducing his code and tehOen is bitching because he wants it.

I've never said that I wanted it. Learn to read!
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 29, 2007, 07:25:15 pm
Fine, you're bitching because you wanted it to be released. You're the last person who should be telling anyone to learn to read, you dismiss arguments that you *think* will be shit because you don't like the poster.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 07:29:03 pm
anything you post is shit

its either spam, or its so hippocrital that its just too funny to take seriously
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: kevlarman on July 29, 2007, 07:30:37 pm
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
anything you post is shit

its either spam, or its so hippocrital that its just too funny to take seriously
pot, kettle, black.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 07:32:09 pm
i dont get it
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 29, 2007, 07:39:03 pm
It means that what you're saying is true to yourself. Basically, he could've told you the same thing.

Quite clever, actually. Here's it's story:
Quote
The pot and the kettle are like old friends who have turned black with time; the pot only sees the blackness which is on the kettle; he doesn't see the black on himself. Example: "Here comes the guy who is always late for work." Answer: "Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? You are usually the last person to show up!"


Oh, and if you'd take time to read some of what I write, witch it's obvious you don't, you might change your mind about me.




Yeah, right.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 07:44:34 pm
but i dont pretend that i have changed

i still dont get pot kettle black

but it sounds racist
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: kevlarman on July 29, 2007, 07:46:25 pm
Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
Oh, and if you'd take time to read some of what I write, witch it's obvious you don't, you might change your mind about me.
no, he's absolutely right. it just so happens that his statement applies as much to him as it does to you.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 07:48:13 pm
oh no i am the same as plague bringer D:

i guess i should start saying that i dont spam anymore and then spam anyways
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: DHRUVINATOR on July 29, 2007, 07:58:56 pm
Why fight lets live in peace.
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: tehOen on July 29, 2007, 08:36:34 pm
Quote from: "DHRUVINATOR"
Why fight lets live in peace.

peace is boring lets fight like little kids
lol
Title: Just for the record: Dretch Storm
Post by: Maltagearion on July 30, 2007, 09:37:17 pm
HEY GUYS OUR SERVER SUCKS AND IS FULL OF NOOBS WHAT DO WE DO TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM CAMPING FOR 10 HOURS?

I KNOW BOB LETS MAKE IT SO IF IT LASTS TOO LONG IT GOES INTO SUPER FAGGOT MODE AND EVERYONE DIES.

GOOD IDEA JIM THIS IS MUCH BETTER THAN OUR PLAN TO JUST SHUT DOWN THIS HORRIBLE SERVER.

Hope this helps!