Tremulous Forum

General => Feedback => Topic started by: David on July 26, 2007, 02:34:54 pm

Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: David on July 26, 2007, 02:34:54 pm
Aliens cant evolve near humans.  For good reason.
However, when the humans launch a big attack, aliens find them selves having to flee the base to evolve, just to come back to defend.  Stick a flamer on each door and the dretches can't get out.
This doesn't seem right,  so I propose that aliens are always allowed to evolve when near the overmind.
Patch to do it here:  http://www.mercenariesguild.net/patches/?do=details&task_id=82
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Dance Commander on July 26, 2007, 04:56:09 pm
I think that would tip the balence even more in the aliens favor, and if any human team is coordinated enough to get a flamer on each door, then they deserve the win.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Lakitu7 on July 26, 2007, 05:18:37 pm
Not being able to do it always seemed more like a bug than a balance, to me. You can argue that it may further imbalances in 1.1, but with the 1.2 changes, I think it should be done definitely.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Paradox on July 26, 2007, 08:34:49 pm
Quote from: "Dance Commander"
I think that would tip the balence even more in the aliens favor, and if any human team is coordinated enough to get a flamer on each door, then they deserve the win.

Oh, like it isnt tipped twoards humans as it is. Long range weapons, high damage, powerful structures, etc.
Tremulous is perfectly balanced, and when aliens attack humans, humans can buy stuff still, there isnt a "You may not buy that because there is an alien nearby"
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Computer[SU] on July 26, 2007, 09:16:49 pm
Quote from: "Paradox"
when aliens attack humans, humans can buy stuff still, there isnt a "You may not buy that because there is an alien nearby"


"Humans can upgrade while being attacked in base, therefore:  aliens should be able to upgrade while being attacked in base."

That isn't a valid argument.  For example:  Humans can jetpack, therefore:  aliens should be able to jetpack.

Any disadvantage for aliens is fine in my book, even if nonsensical.  Whether because of the particular style of the players involved or the tendency of noobs to prefer humans for the "traditional" FPS feel, the fact is that in pub servers and, from what I have seen, even clan matches aliens win at least a majority of matches.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: E-Mxp on July 26, 2007, 10:01:54 pm
Quote from: "Dance Commander"
if any human team is coordinated enough to get a flamer on each door, then they deserve the win.
qft! :)

Indeed, Aliens tend to win more often than Humans. Humans must have some teamwork to defeat the aliens, and that is what most people forget when they join humans.

Hope for 1.2 to force the humans to do some more teamwork and strategy :D
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Paradox on July 26, 2007, 10:48:31 pm
perhaps bring back teamtask?
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: David on July 26, 2007, 11:05:52 pm
Trem is being rebalanced in 1.2, so if this change is made it would be taken into account when balancing stuff.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Odin on July 26, 2007, 11:44:42 pm
Quote from: "Computer[SU
"]
Quote from: "Paradox"
when aliens attack humans, humans can buy stuff still, there isnt a "You may not buy that because there is an alien nearby"


"Humans can upgrade while being attacked in base, therefore:  aliens should be able to upgrade while being attacked in base."

That isn't a valid argument.  For example:  Humans can jetpack, therefore:  aliens should be able to jetpack.

Any disadvantage for aliens is fine in my book, even if nonsensical.  Whether because of the particular style of the players involved or the tendency of noobs to prefer humans for the "traditional" FPS feel, the fact is that in pub servers and, from what I have seen, even clan matches aliens win at least a majority of matches.
Wrong.
if you set up your binds correctly(like I have), you can literally switch to a totally different role in mid-battle. You can go from sniping with the mass driver straight to chainsuit to take out Tyrants. This is a massive disadvantage for the Aliens.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Paradox on July 27, 2007, 01:33:34 am
Quote from: "Odin"
Wrong.
if you set up your binds correctly(like I have), you can literally switch to a totally different role in mid-battle. You can go from sniping with the mass driver straight to chainsuit to take out Tyrants. This is a massive disadvantage for the Aliens.

Thats what i was getting to.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Computer[SU] on July 27, 2007, 02:18:51 am
Quote from: "Odin"
Wrong.
if you set up your binds correctly(like I have), you can literally switch to a totally different role in mid-battle. You can go from sniping with the mass driver straight to chainsuit to take out Tyrants. This is a massive disadvantage for the Aliens.


Lolz.  Read my post again.  Where exactly are you disagreeing with me?

I explicitly said that not being able to involve in the base is a disadvantage.  That doesn't necessarily mean it should be changed, though, considering overall balance issues.  Just because something is a disadvantage doesn't mean it shouldn't be part of the game - that's what I was getting at there.

People on these forums are just really, really intent on getting in an argument.  So intent that they call people wrong without disagreeing with them.  I give up, seriously.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: kozak6 on July 27, 2007, 03:11:32 am
Quote from: "Lakitu7"
Not being able to do it always seemed more like a bug than a balance, to me. You can argue that it may further imbalances in 1.1, but with the 1.2 changes, I think it should be done definitely.


Yeah, I always thought it seemed like a bug as well, and a stupidly frustrating one at that.

It definitely should be changed.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Odin on July 27, 2007, 04:02:57 am
Quote
That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.
That's what I was arguing with.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: benmachine on July 27, 2007, 03:32:56 pm
Quote from: "Odin"
Quote
That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.
That's what I was arguing with.

Your argument didn't make any sense. Computer was illustrating that humans have some advantages that aliens don't, and for good reason. You responded saying that humans have some advantages that aliens don't. Wtfs ensued.

Personally, I like the behaviour as it is. Just as aliens can knock out an armoury, humans can lock down a base to prevent retaliation. Attackers are rewarded for their bravery with swarms of feeder dretches. Seems fair to me. Aliens should not change form while you are attacking them.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Seffylight on July 27, 2007, 08:01:36 pm
I've nothing to add to the conversation at large, besides to say that I voted yes.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 27, 2007, 10:11:46 pm
Okay, on the topic of humans having the advantage of being able to buy equipment at their ten buildpoint armory, and only at their ten buildpoint armoury, lets look at the oposite side of the argument, aliens can evolve anywhere (with exceptions) so long as they have a zero build point overmind. I'd say that's pretty balanced.

In simplified terms: So long as the aliens have a no cost structure, they can evolve anywhere humans aren't. Humans need a 10bp structre, and can only purchace things withing a very close range to it.

Regarding the original post I have four points.

Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: temple on July 27, 2007, 10:48:10 pm
Never heard a good 'why not' argument.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Paradox on July 27, 2007, 11:52:17 pm
Quote from: "Plague Bringer"

  • Also, if the alien base is locked down by flamers, you're either in a one exit base, or a base where there are very small exits, in both cases the alien team is at fault for choosing such a location. The only map I can think of with the default alien location having small entrances is Transit, but there's three(+/=) of them, that's enough to get a dretch out.

Tremor.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 28, 2007, 12:00:23 am
Tremor has one fairly wide, and quite tall door. Now, while the flame thrower will reach the ceiling, it is a trivial task for any alien to wallwalk out. Also, since Tremor's alien default is so large, you can go into a corner and evolve unless the humans are in your base, see point three.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 28, 2007, 12:42:12 am
oh shut up about the damn flamers

no1 uses those pos
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: AKAnotu on July 28, 2007, 01:03:06 am
I'm gonna pull the gambler's fallacy and say that aliens should be able to evolve if they are touching the overmind
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: benmachine on July 28, 2007, 01:34:45 am
Quote from: "AKAnotu"
I'm gonna pull the gambler's fallacy and say that aliens should be able to evolve if they are touching the overmind

Quote
There is no room to evolve here

The fact that I'm too lazy to look up what the gambler's fallacy is is probably going to kick me in the arse later.

edit, because I cba with a new post: re AKAnotu, gambler's fallacy
oh, clever
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: AKAnotu on July 28, 2007, 01:55:59 am
gambler's fallacy is an argument that assumes that since it's in between two polar opposites, it's automatically right
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Odin on July 28, 2007, 02:51:56 am
Quote from: "benmachine"
Quote from: "Odin"
Quote
That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.
That's what I was arguing with.

Your argument didn't make any sense. Computer was illustrating that humans have some advantages that aliens don't, and for good reason. You responded saying that humans have some advantages that aliens don't. Wtfs ensued.

Personally, I like the behaviour as it is. Just as aliens can knock out an armoury, humans can lock down a base to prevent retaliation. Attackers are rewarded for their bravery with swarms of feeder dretches. Seems fair to me. Aliens should not change form while you are attacking them.
Then why should I be allowed to snipe a dretch with the mass driver, then immediately switch to chainsuit to take out the incoming tyrant?
Title: there, their & they're...
Post by: player1 on July 28, 2007, 07:15:36 am
@David: their

Aren't you in the country where English originated? :P

Oh, and the answer is: Yes when I'm Alien, No when I'm Human.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 28, 2007, 03:09:06 pm
Quote from: "Odin"
Quote from: "benmachine"
Quote from: "Odin"
Quote
That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.
That's what I was arguing with.

Your argument didn't make any sense. Computer was illustrating that humans have some advantages that aliens don't, and for good reason. You responded saying that humans have some advantages that aliens don't. Wtfs ensued.

Personally, I like the behaviour as it is. Just as aliens can knock out an armoury, humans can lock down a base to prevent retaliation. Attackers are rewarded for their bravery with swarms of feeder dretches. Seems fair to me. Aliens should not change form while you are attacking them.
Then why should I be allowed to snipe a dretch with the mass driver, then immediately switch to chainsuit to take out the incoming tyrant?
That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the Alien's ability (or lack there of) to always evolve by the overmind. Regardless of that, benmachine pointed out that aliens can knock out the armory just as humans can lock down an alien base. Now, while the humans make it hard to get to the armory, the aliens make it equally as hard to get to their base, therefore balance is achieved. See my past argument if you're going to argue that when alien base is locked down the cannot evolve, which would be following the topic subject, which in turn would be very much appreciated.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: David on July 28, 2007, 03:41:21 pm
It takes just as long to psaw the OM as it does to Chomp the armoury.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Plague Bringer on July 28, 2007, 04:23:41 pm
You're pointing out balance.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Odin on July 28, 2007, 06:48:54 pm
Quote from: "Plague Bringer"
You're pointing out balance.
No, he's pointing out that someone could rush in with the psaw and nobody would have a chance to evolve. It would be dead by the time someone finally brought down the enemy.

The humans can switch weapons and defend the armory at the same time. They can also completely change roles in an instant. They can go from defending to tyrant chase in one keystroke. The aliens cannot as easily switch when humans attack. If you're a Granger trying to build, and the humans attack, you have almost no chance to evolve to something that can effectively defend the base.

Also, it is completely unrealistic that I shouldn't be able to evolve(if I had the ability to) in the presence of the enemy. Plants don't stop photosynthesis in the presence of grazing animals.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Iltama on July 28, 2007, 10:10:05 pm
Quote from: "Odin"
Also, it is completely unrealistic that I shouldn't be able to evolve(if I had the ability to) in the presence of the enemy. Plants don't stop photosynthesis in the presence of grazing animals.

Hmm, yes, tremulous is realistic! Aliens are realistic! Biomass can reform and even gain mass in less that nanosecond without taking it from surroundings(evolving)! Sorry, but that argument fails automaticly : P

And about that human role changing....the teams are completely different, why should they have the same abilities? For example, should humans be then able to buy weapons everywhere too? Humans can only change their role when there is an armory near you, aliens have only one place where they can't do it, right infront of the enemy. Unbalanced? I don't know, but your reasoning fails.

(my opinion is that things are fine as they are now, I really can't back it up with arguments, you would have to use shit load of reference to make a point that would please even most of the people)
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: benmachine on July 28, 2007, 10:43:51 pm
Anyone heard of base defence? Trappers? Yes, overmind painsaw rushes do happen, but any alien team that allows that to happen deserves everything it gets, and every human team that successfully pulls one off needs a pat on the back too.
Humans have a massive versatility advantage, yes. Aliens have a massive independency and agility advantage.
Re: unrealism: if n00b pl0x sees this thread he will probably have an aneurysm :P nevertheless, let us explain it thusly: the process of evolution involves a large synaptic surge from the overmind, the disruption of which (by, for example, human fire) is disorienting and frustrating to the overmind. Thus, the overmind does not allow evolution near humans as the risk is too high. Ok?
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 28, 2007, 10:48:46 pm
now why exactly would i do that?
Title: they don't know u very well, do they?
Post by: player1 on July 28, 2007, 11:03:28 pm
becuz u hate reality, apparently...
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Patriotpie on July 28, 2007, 11:04:21 pm
and because everyone knows aneurysms are fun
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Mispeled on July 29, 2007, 02:44:00 am
What about instead of allowing evolution next to OM, it was allowed next to the booster? The booster is much more vulnerable than the OM in most cases, so it's still possible for humans to totally remove the aliens' ability to evo if they try hard enough.

Also, the essence of the idea makes sense with 1.2 alien regen changes which make aliens more base dependant.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: temple on July 29, 2007, 05:43:06 am
Quote from: "benmachine"
Anyone heard of base defence? Trappers? Yes, overmind painsaw rushes do happen, but any alien team that allows that to happen deserves everything it gets,

Trappers, highly overrated.  

Fact is, its incredibility easy to painsaw the OM.  Add in grenades and killing the OM can be done consistently.  The only balancing factor is the difficulty in getting a painsaw to the alien base.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: kevlarman on July 29, 2007, 06:14:57 am
Quote from: "temple"
Quote from: "benmachine"
Anyone heard of base defence? Trappers? Yes, overmind painsaw rushes do happen, but any alien team that allows that to happen deserves everything it gets,

Trappers, highly overrated.  

Fact is, its incredibility easy to painsaw the OM.  Add in grenades and killing the OM can be done consistently.  The only balancing factor is the difficulty in getting a painsaw to the alien base.
trappers are underrated, rules of building an alien base:
1) build more trappers
2) you still haven't built enough trappers
3) when all else fails, eggspam
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: temple on July 29, 2007, 06:38:17 am
Quote from: "kevlarman"
Quote from: "temple"
Quote from: "benmachine"
Anyone heard of base defence? Trappers? Yes, overmind painsaw rushes do happen, but any alien team that allows that to happen deserves everything it gets,

Trappers, highly overrated.  

Fact is, its incredibility easy to painsaw the OM.  Add in grenades and killing the OM can be done consistently.  The only balancing factor is the difficulty in getting a painsaw to the alien base.
trappers are underrated, rules of building an alien base:
1) build more trappers
2) you still haven't built enough trappers
3) when all else fails, eggspam

Step 0-Build barricades around OM.  Perfect protection
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Paradox on July 29, 2007, 06:25:52 pm
Step 0.1: build a hovel on choke point, say ramp.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: kevlarman on July 29, 2007, 06:35:19 pm
Quote from: "Paradox"
Step 0.1: build a hovel on choke point, say ramp.
that hovel only works against bad players, and even then it doesn't help much. pretty much all the people i play with now use the hovel to stop the luci jump up to the om on atcs. if you build it on the ramp tyrants can't get up and it is very likely to cost you the game when a luci jumper gets 10 undisturbed seconds to take out the om.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 06:43:23 pm
circle jump your tyrant across the gap ffs.

i hate retards that think 'im a tyrant and a hovel is there, so ill sit and watch'
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: temple on July 29, 2007, 07:08:34 pm
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
circle jump your tyrant across the gap ffs.

i hate retards that think 'im a tyrant and a hovel is there, so ill sit and watch'

luci jump across the gap ffs
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: kevlarman on July 29, 2007, 07:11:55 pm
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
circle jump your tyrant across the gap ffs.

i hate retards that think 'im a tyrant and a hovel is there, so ill sit and watch'
in the time it takes to line up a circle jump the luci drops a nade and takes 3 shots at the om, the 4th one is enough to finish it. add to that the fact that a few trapper locations are much more effective than that hovel, and you end up using the hovel to cover the hole in the trappers rather than using it to cover the ramp.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 07:25:04 pm
1 charged shot before you can get across...not 3

and i usually put a hive or acid above the lucijump spot so he hits his head and takes extra damage
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Evlesoa on July 29, 2007, 09:53:28 pm
Good idea david :) I like it... lol, maybe balance the game out more
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 09:55:34 pm
well now this idea sucks
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Evlesoa on July 29, 2007, 10:04:19 pm
Quote from: "n00b pl0x"
well now this idea sucks


Why do you say that? Aliens camp human base exits :\ not too fair now is it?
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: n00b pl0x on July 29, 2007, 10:05:11 pm
you think the idea is good

therefore it sucks
Title: c'mon, kid, i kid...
Post by: player1 on July 30, 2007, 08:27:17 am
I was almost starting 2 b convinced...:P j/k <3 u Ev i kid becuz i <3

But, srsly, I think that even though I don't like it when I'm Alien, might've proposed the same idea myself (doffs hat @ OP), and three-quarters of you all agree with the idea, I still have to side with the tribal elders and drag my heels. I hadn't voted yet. Today I side with the reactionaries, not the revolutionaries.

Preparing to be run down by the bus,
I remain your faithful correspondent

(doing what I can to raise the level of discourse and awaiting flambe)

70% to 30% now!
dig ur heelz in while ya can...:D

(plus, I haven't been playing 1.2, maybe this fits right in?)
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Eeeew Spiders on July 30, 2007, 03:22:36 pm
Quote from: "Iltama"
Biomass can reform and even gain mass in less that nanosecond without taking it from surroundings(evolving)! Sorry, but that argument fails automaticly : P

Tyrants weigh the same as dretches! they are both light as a feather.
Other than that, there are many changes you could come up with that would make it easier for a particular race. But better trem is not all about making things easier. In most bases on most maps you already find enough space to evolve even with enemy inside.
The counter balance would probably be to be save when buying at the armoury without getting killed, i think there is a another thread about that.
Both are not needed to make Trem better IMHO.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: techhead on July 31, 2007, 09:36:36 pm
Aliens carapaces are made primarily of carbon fiber, with a hardness similar to that of diamonds. However, the thinness is the weak-point in the armor, and can easily be pierced. Where do aliens get all this carbon from??? From carbon surrounding them in their environment, anything from corpses to creep to blood to the carbon dioxide in the air.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Mispeled on July 31, 2007, 10:02:47 pm
I suppose aliens could use some sort of rapid photosynthesis to convert carbon compounds and water into glucose. The glucose could then be used as an energy source to form the larger alien from proteins and minerals taken from humans.

The energy from the photosynthesis (which, for plants, comes from solar light) can come from the overmind (http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/wec.shtml). The "proteins and minerals taken from humans" are represented as evos.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Eeeew Spiders on August 02, 2007, 04:33:31 pm
Where does the alien keep it's evo? it doesn't have pockets.
And I have looked inside of a tyrant, there is nothing.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: techhead on August 02, 2007, 08:24:27 pm
They probably keep all of the stuff it in it's stomach, or in a pile of snack-food they drag around with them.

Back on topic...
Maybe this feature needs a comprimise. If you are closer to the overmind than you are to the nearest enemy, you can evolve. This way, you can evolve if they are outside your base. However, you won't be able to if they are inside and you want to kill that luci standing 20 feet from the OM.
Title: Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?
Post by: Dance Commander on August 03, 2007, 06:40:42 am
that wouldnt work, because then someone in the hallway on atcs could prevent aliens in the middle from evoing.  that would just constrict the aliens to evolving near om.