Tremulous Forum
Media => Map Releases => Topic started by: gareth on August 17, 2007, 02:00:24 pm
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I (and others) think it would be an excellent idea for a 1.15 release to be created, with new maps, a backported client to get new menus etc, and auto download turned on.
Why? because few people play new maps, and that rather sucks, same old maps again and again is boring. its crap for the players because its boring and its crap for the mappers because with a few exceptions, getting your custom map on a server means 90% of the people leave because they cant download it or dont want to wait for hours at 5kb/s. A 1.15 release with a whole bunch of new maps would provide some refreshing new content, and because a http autodownload is turned on by default, new maps can download easily in future too.
In order for this to happen, there needs to be a release date that is stuck to, and preferably fairly soon too, tentatively thinking sept. 24.
if you have a map in progress, can you finish it within a month or so? Or if your map is finished possibly polish it up for a release?
Not thinking of including every map that has been produced, only good ones, eg of around the quality of the stock maps.
PS. currently this is unofficial, no word from the devs. (EDIT: will be ok to put on official downloads page, given high quality)
comments/suggestions/i will finish my map!'s ?
EDIT:
Release Date: Sept. 24
List of maps (not finalised) in no particular order, please make suggestions:
-Thermal:? currently final. good map imo, a little rough around the edges tho.
-Ancient Remains: to include, i think DASPRiD said he had a new version with brighter indoors, get that if possible. edit: he said he would make a new release, for 1.2 i guess. since thats a long way off, this release will include Ancient Remain 1.0.
-Sokolov:? looks nice but rather laggy and unconventional so it hasnt been tested much, to my knowledge ;)
-ATCS3: to include, solid map - well tested.
-Cerberus: to include pending a final version? seems well tested.
-Cleanser: final, include probably only tested on dretchstorm but seemed well received.
-Flap: im unsure, i think i only ever played one game on it. Anyone else?
-Gamma Core b6: will need a final version, it also has the problem with the vent atm, but it has been played alot, at least on funzone.
-Gloomb2: nice map, but chances of a final version are slim, it would seem.
-Meep b2: also good map, well tested, but chances of a final seem equally unlikely.
-Metro b 1.2: really nice map, plays v. well. will have to see if kosad can make a final.
-Procyon: big, but solid and well tested map. to include i think.
-Hamunaptra: its nothing awesome but its not as bad as some people say it is, its fairly well tested too. include?
-Pulse: v. nice, but issues with human spawn point at start, a beta to change this doesnt look likely.
-Research Station Omega: i am unsure. anyone else?
-Sectorb17: final, its an ok map i think, but im kinda biased ;)
-Sedna b3: im not sure, would need a final anyway.
-Sirius b2: to include pending final, i think, anyone?
-Stamina b2: well tested, its got a horrible camp spot that would need to be fixed in a final.
-UTCS b2: to include pending final, well tested.
-GroundSource b1: I like the looks of it, but have barely played it, also would need a final. anyone?
Nano b1: nice small map - to include pending final version.
Eden: final in time?
Derelict b4: imo good map, chances of a final are low tho.
Any maps not on the list arent there because either i didnt think they are good enough quality/suitable for whatever reason, or i just forgot them, feel free to make suggestions.
License: CREATIVE COMMONS ATTRIBUTION-SHAREALIKE 2.5
LICENSE
You will have to ensure your map and all assets used by it have a license that is compatible with this license:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/
there may be some exceptions, though, I believe, please correct me if i am wrong.
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My maps arent new release grade, others will agree.
I would love to, but would others.
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If this goes through, I'll put the Frankenline up when it'd completed.
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Why? because few people play new maps, and that rather sucks, same old maps again and again is boring. its crap for the players because its boring and its crap for the mappers because with a few exceptions, getting your custom map on a server means 90% of the people leave because they cant download it or dont want to wait for hours at 5kb/s. A 1.15 release with a whole bunch of new maps would provide some refreshing new content, and because a http autodownload is turned on by default, new maps can download easily in future too.
It all comes down to a download link on the official website. On first glance there is nothing that mentions the backport or new maps. A link to the
list of all maps (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3574) and tjw's backport (http://tremulous.tjw.org/backport/win32/tremulous.exe) could solve a lot of hastle.
Of course, I fully support a community mappack. I could release sirius and nano-final soon.
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SIRIUS!!!!
Go Ingar, Go Ingar, Go Ingar, Goooooooooo INGAR!!!!
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i'm fine with finishing gulag, if you deliver on your end
o and gareth, finally finish all your 7 maps that look extremely sweet and super awesome
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I might have an updated version of Cerberus and Eden by then. Also, D*S Arena is final, although no servers ever play it aside from D*S because of its name :-?
I might also have a beta version of my newest map, 1984, by then.
1.2 better add better custom map support. A few suggestions that might work to improve the situation :
- Turn AutoDL/http DL on by default.
- Make an official map pack and make the client notify users of updates to it.
- Short of doing that, add an official map pack on the tremulous.net downloads page, or even a link to the MG map repo.
Right now, the situation is incredibly frustrating for mappers because their work goes to waste because not enough people bother to DL their map.
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Well, DASPRiD has said that it will probably be able to be put on the official download page (he will have to consult timbo), given that only quality finished maps are included.
Next step is to deceide which maps to include, I will use the first post to maintain a list. ^
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Please don't have a vote on it by the community. Set requirements which must be met.
Things like
- No known bugs
- No non-included textures
- No beta/alpha test etc parts in the name if they refer to the the status. Gamma core obviously could work as a name.
- No fullbright areas
You get the gist of what I mean by this.
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i believe jex said he would finish gloom2t for 1.2, catalyc lost the .map of both meep versions, so the chances of it being finished are basically 0.
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Unless he decompiles it and retextures the lot >.>
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What were the requirements for the 1.1 maps?
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Ever opened the tremor.map? I dont think there were any.
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Ever opened the tremor.map?
I just have. My eyes have turned in on themselves and now my face is stuck in a perpetual expression of "WTF?!"
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Tremor is really, really, sloppily made. To be honest, I have no idea how the mapper could stand working with something so sloppy.
Makes me think that maybe he made it so dark to cover up all the little defects that are pretty much everywhere. If you crank up the gamma on that map, you can see that there are dozens of glitches all over the place.
It does play fairly well, though.
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I guess this suggests that gameplay is considered to be somewhat more important over technical quality.
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i added derelict to the list, and licensing info to the first post.^
Regarding quality, im not sure either gameplay or aesthetics are more valued, its the map as a whole that counts.
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Is the .map file for transit available anywhere? I want to open up that outdoor area (near human default base) but decompiles leave textures improperly placed and seems to completely remove lighting.
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finalised release date, as it seems reasonable.
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yeah thats pretty good I'd imagine.
My maps are crap however, so none of mine will even be considered to be released, donno worrry.
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WHY WULD ANIEONE WUNT TO POLISH A MAP ALL THEY AM DO IS DECONE AND GREEF FSS.
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The final release of groundsource will be out before 24/09.
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5 kbps? Maybe default HTTP downloads?... Will solve a looot of problems.
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The final release of groundsource will be out before 24/09.
excellent.
@==Troy==:
yes, thats kindoff the idea. :P
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-ATCS3: to include, solid map - well tested.
LOL!!!
You are funny, gareth... :P
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-ATCS3: to include, solid map - well tested.
LOL!!!
You are funny, gareth... :P
I don't think he was kidding.
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-ATCS3: to include, solid map - well tested.
LOL!!!
You are funny, gareth... :P
what are you contesting? explain yourself and provide some proof of what you say please.
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ive been thinking about distribution, pretty important imo, got to allow people to get it easily. heres some ideas.
possibly 3 different distributions channels:
1. for people new to tremulous -> an installer like 1.1 but with the backport-with http autodl on and new maps.
2. for people who have the 1.1 installer already, but are not familiar the backport, dont know how to get maps etc -> an installer like 1. but that doesnt include the original maps, and installs over the existing installation, ie. a patch.
3. for people who know about backports and autodownload and such, this includes server owners -> a list of downloads of the new maps, so they can easily be downloaded.
- this might be too complicated, people easily get confused, it could be better to remove 2. and instead just use 1. for the same purpose.
- gotta research how to make some installers ;)
- please make suggestions
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Just use 1. Any half decent server op knows about bricosoft's map repository at the best and most decent maps at the least. controls is a matter of copying or leaving the original user configs.
Largest part of the files are the same anyway. So make it a single installer with 2 options. New install (pretty clear) & Update existing install (Have all controlconfig files remain the same and update pk3s and the exes if applicable, change autodownload and other settings if possible?)
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PS. currently this is unofficial, no word from the devs.
EDIT:
Release Date: Sept. 24
So, since you have a release date, does that mean that it's official now? Or are you hoping to prod the devs into making a release?
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D*S Arena is final, although no servers ever play it aside from D*S because of its name :-?
Are you serious? I'm not sure what you expected there. The map is named after a particular server with that servers logo in the map. Seriously, if I put cans of pepsi all over my map, should I be surprised that its not on the Coke servers?
Operators and Admins are trying to get players, not send them to another server.
Sorry to go off topic here, but the statement really threw me for a loop.
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^ Maybe I miscommunicated there. All I meant to say was that because the map is server specific, it isn't really suited for an official release.
It was probably a mistake to name it that way in the first place. Oh well.
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He just wants a Tremulous update to come out before he gets caught up playing Halo 3. (September 26, if you live under a rock)
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before he gets caught up playing Halo 3. (September 26, if you live under a rock)
Nope, Halo 3 has no official release date. (Halo 3 for PC that is :wink: ) I hope they don't keep PC users waiting 5 years like they did with Halo 2.
So, that date of Sept. 24, is that official or not?
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So, that date of Sept. 24, is that official or not?
official, in which way? - this release isnt being made by the devs, (unless they want to :P) but DASPRiD has said it will be put on the official pages. Sept 24. is the date by which i intend to have put it all together, and at the moment it looks like thats going to happen.
And on distribution, a single download installer that is separate to 1.1 (ie not a patch) looks like the best way imo. - that and a page of screenshots/descriptions/download links for the new maps.
and on the name? 1.15 ? maybe slightly misleading because its not actually a new version as such, its more a bugfix / map pack release, but it may be more likely to be downloaded by newbs than if it had a name like "tremulous community mappack", also dunno what devs think about that name...
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Why not call it 'latest subrelease'? Just make sure to put it before the 1.1 installer.
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DASPRiD has said it will be put on the official pages.
That's official enough for me.
and on the name? 1.15 ? maybe slightly misleading because its not actually a new version as such, its more a bugfix / map pack release, but it may be more likely to be downloaded by newbs than if it had a name like "tremulous community mappack", also dunno what devs think about that name...
Will it use the dm_70 network format? If so, it should be 1.5.0. If it still uses the dm_69 format, then 1.2.0 or 1.1.5 would be better, IMO.
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Spet. 24? Wow, I need to get to work.
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I would like to ask gareth again to not include ATCS3 in this mappack. I want to touch up and finish ATCS3 so it can be ready for the Tremulous 1.2 release next thursday. While I know I cannot stop you from including the map, it would be greatly appriciated if you complied.
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If it's not too much trouble, could you please make 64-bit versions of the installer?
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If it's not too much trouble, could you please make 64-bit versions of the installer?
I can compile a linux 64bit version.
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I decided to post again just to flame you :)
If this is going to get anywhere:
Do you know what the fuck you are doing?
From what I have seen, you lack all the needed skills. Maybe you just never showed them off, but please say.
Who?
Assuming you lack some / all skills, who is doing what, when, how.
What version? What changes?
Need a detailed list of everything your going to change. Don't forget the GPL. - A patch file is *not* enough.
Does it have dev blessing?
You said DASPRiD would talk to timbo, has he? No official support = give up now.
What installers?
Kinda fits with points 1 & 2. Don't use something retarded.
Who's distributing?
Big file, lots of downloads. Going to need some serious bandwidth.
Beta release?
You fuck this, (quite possible) and you'll do more harm than good.
Auto-download by default?
So... let some random server owner (S11?) run random code on peoples computers? Its off by default for a reason.
Also don't forget to make the client different to the server, so we can send CP's to people who haven't updated.
And DON'T add a version number unless you have dev approval. If you do, ask them what number, if not, give up.
Just my 2 cents. (Or 1 penny)
EDIT:
Also, what about bugs? The devs wont be pleased if bugs from your version start getting spammed on bugzilla. You going to set up your own support system?
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If it's not too much trouble, could you please make 64-bit versions of the installer?
I can compile a linux 64bit version.
I would appreciate one, specificaly TJW's binary, or a backported SVN binary.
I can get Trem to run with the add/remove programs thing, but it will only run the 1.1.0 version. Attempts to get it to run TJW's version (for guid support) have failed.
EDIT: I did some more searching, and I'm going to install the linux32 (libraries?) and try the installer again. I'll update this post when I've tried it.
Auto-download by default?
So... let some random server owner (S11?) run random code on peoples computers? Its off by default for a reason.
Auto download does NOT allow "random code" to be run on the client machine. It only allows maps, vms etc to be downloaded. The vm's can't make changes to your file system, or read form anything outside of your /tremulous/modname folders.
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qvm's CAN access files. (At least on the server. I always assumed they were similar).
Some mods use random files to store configuration stuff in.
Just because there are no know security holes, doesn't mean there wont be some point in the future.
Also, Its very easy for me to make a dud mod that stops you playing on impure / your own servers.
And do you really want it like counter strike where you have 20 custom 'HEADSHOT' wavs to download per server?
Also, if you cant type 'make', why are you using linux?
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...
The client won't download file it already has, so it won't accept a new vms1.1.0.pk3 which has been modified to make them unable to join servers.
The point of auto download on is so newbs can download maps/mods without going "WTF? I keep getting kicked out of the server."
Also, if you cant type 'make', why are you using linux?
To learn.
And I can type "make" it's hunting down the dependencies, and knowing where to type "make" and what options to use, that gets me.
e.g. I'm trying to run trem, but it keeps telling me that libSDL-1.2.so.0 can't be found. I have every libSDL package installed, and yet the error keeps coming up.
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apt-get build-dep tremulous
Assuming you're on some kind of Debian-based distro.
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...
The client won't download file it already has, so it won't accept a new vms1.1.0.pk3 which has been modified to make them unable to join servers.
The point of auto download on is so newbs can download maps/mods without going "WTF? I keep getting kicked out of the server."
No vms1.1.0.pk3 in ~/*/base, only in the global default install place.
And zzz.pk3 overrides it.
Also, if you cant type 'make', why are you using linux?
To learn.
And I can type "make" it's hunting down the dependencies, and knowing where to type "make" and what options to use, that gets me.
Type it in the root of the source tree. Dependency's shouldn't be an issue.
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Type it in the root of the source tree. Dependency's shouldn't be an issue.
Well it compiled. and started to run, but then it gave me an error. I've posted here (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=90935#90935) to try not to derail this topic.
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I decided to post again just to flame you :)
Do you know what the fuck you are doing?
From what I have seen, you lack all the needed skills. Maybe you just never showed them off, but please say.
skills such as what? how can i know if ive got them if i dont know what they are?
Who?
Assuming you lack some / all skills, who is doing what, when, how.
people are finishing maps for this.
What version? What changes?
Need a detailed list of everything your going to change. Don't forget the GPL. - A patch file is *not* enough.
its going to use the backport tjw client, with autodownload on by default, it will have some new maps. there are no more changes.
Who's distributing?
Big file, lots of downloads. Going to need some serious bandwidth.
same place official downloads come from now...
Beta release?
You fuck this, (quite possible) and you'll do more harm than good.
there will not be much to test, given all maps will be tested separately, but it will be tested privately.
And DON'T add a version number unless you have dev approval. If you do, ask them what number, if not, give up.
backport -> not a new version.
EDIT:
Also, what about bugs? The devs wont be pleased if bugs from your version start getting spammed on bugzilla. You going to set up your own support system?
backport -> not a new version.
i ignored some things because they are not decieded yet.
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I would like to ask gareth again to not include ATCS3 in this mappack. I want to touch up and finish ATCS3 so it can be ready for the Tremulous 1.2 release next thursday. While I know I cannot stop you from including the map, it would be greatly appriciated if you complied.
bah, fine. :P
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I decided to post again just to flame you :)
Do you know what the fuck you are doing?
From what I have seen, you lack all the needed skills. Maybe you just never showed them off, but please say.
skills such as what? how can i know if ive got them if i dont know what they are?
Right....
Compiling and testing on win32 / mac(i386 and ppc) / linux?
Making the installers?
Who?
Assuming you lack some / all skills, who is doing what, when, how.
people are finishing maps for this.
What about the above stuff?
What version? What changes?
Need a detailed list of everything your going to change. Don't forget the GPL. - A patch file is *not* enough.
its going to use the backport tjw client, with autodownload on by default, it will have some new maps. there are no more changes.
Changing cvar defaults = code change.
Also, cl_guidServerUniq on by default?
Who's distributing?
Big file, lots of downloads. Going to need some serious bandwidth.
same place official downloads come from now...
You still haven't stated you have dev approval.
Beta release?
You fuck this, (quite possible) and you'll do more harm than good.
there will not be much to test, given all maps will be tested separately, but it will be tested privately.
You have any experience with installers?
You have all the necessary with all the different OS's / architectures?
Open = better.
And DON'T add a version number unless you have dev approval. If you do, ask them what number, if not, give up.
backport -> not a new version.
Having two different 1.1's floating around would be nothing but hassle.
EDIT:
Also, what about bugs? The devs wont be pleased if bugs from your version start getting spammed on bugzilla. You going to set up your own support system?
backport -> not a new version.
I was expecting you to be taking all the bug fixes from SVN and adding them to your client...
Final point, you leaving the run a server option in there?
If so, that needs updating too. I would suggest remove it, but the devs might dislike that... Although I'm all for not having it in 1.2...
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The point would be to package the stuff that is already out there and I would like to support garath in his endeavour by finishing my maps and supplying my technical knowledge about patches, source code and the likes.
The fact is that no sensible player uses the stock 1.1.0 client any more and the multitude of patches/clients/servers floating around just enlarges the confusion. As it is now 1.2 seems further away than ever. I do not blame the devs, in fact, I understand the position they are in and I will patiently await the moment they tag SVN with RELEASE1_2 to celebrate the shiny new and improved Tremulous (with mint frosting).
In the mean while members of the community are willing to spend time and effort to alleviate the confusion and enhance the comfort for new players. Even two simple downloads like "mappack" and "client-update" would mean a great leap forward and is the construction I'd personally prefer.
Note that I am not talking about the dedicate server here. I think in that case, a technological barrier is a good thing. The bugfixes aside, server-side patches are a matter of taste anyway.
Having two different 1.1's floating around would be nothing but hassle.
That is the situation as we we have now, only I'd say we have at least two different 1.1's floating around. There's no need for fancy superpatches, there's need for a bit consistency. I'd rather have you tell me what client you use and help us answer the question what patch(es) would be good canditates for a "client-update". Personally I just run tjw's backport (64bit, custom build) but I am probably just as confused about the clients as anybody else. You do have an interesting point about changing some of the default settings. All other technical issues can be worked out.
Any official position of the dev's would be greatly appreciated.
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That is the situation as we we have now, only I'd say we have at least two different 1.1's floating around.
So all the more reason to make the new stand out.
On PT it sends you a CP when you join if you have no GUID.
Today we have an unnamed join, who promptly came out with 'How can my client be out of date, I just downloaded it'
He did have the latest version. The new one needs to be different enough that non-techy people can tell the deference.
I have about 20 clients atm. I *think* I'm currently using a out-of-date SVN backport, but it could be TJW's latest. I need to go delete them all sometime.
As for what should get in, I don't know, and from what I've seen nither does geroth, which is the main issue I have with his plan. IMO its a more important discussion than what maps, as if a map gets left out, or a crap one gets in its not the end of the world.
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The mappack will be as good as the crappiest map included.
@gareth: Thanks, I will do my best to make the waiting worth it.
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well i finally managed to talk to timbo and basically he says no, because he doesnt want to put something up for download with checking it all and he isnt going to do that right now... which is fair enough i guess.
oh well :P
could still put together a quality map pack tho i suppose, just wouldnt be available on the official download pages.
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'bout teh mapz:
imo following:
meep
derelict (<3 <3)
procyon
cleanser
atcs 3 (yes yes!)
gloom2
utcs
but finals plz!
and built-in guid support would be nice - just cuz its a lot easier
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Don't give up.
Just because you went about it the wrong way doesn't mean its a bad idea.
What to do now:
Get a team of people. (#mg is a good starting place)
Get lots of influential people on side. (ask khalsa how)
Get every small detail worked out. (Be very open and public, but don't publicise to the plebs)
Find all the people timbo trusts and get them on side.
Make it.
Test test test.
Release it.
Then ask timbo, once its proven good. Don't bother asking him yourself, get the people you amassed in steps 3 and 5 to do it...
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I understand and respect Timbo's position on this and we all knew this is a delicate subject.
gareth, I agree at least the map pack should go forward. Maybe in time it can still aquire some kind of official status.