Tremulous Forum
Mods => Modding Center => Topic started by: www.rweb.co.nr on August 25, 2007, 08:28:49 pm
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Is there a raytraced version of tremulous allready??
There is a mod for Quake 3 (http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~sidapohl/egoshooter/) What enables raytracing support to the game, so my question is... Is it possible to make the same with Tremulous?? Thanks!
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*about 20 fps@36 GHz in 512x512 with 4xFSAA
i don't think we're raytracing tremulous any time soon.
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LOL, be patient, the tecnology avdvance very fast. But whats about Motionblur or depthblur???? It is avaliable in DX10 and some games like Trackmania have the same function in DX9. This would be greate! A dretch has a limited view! :dretch:
And... Quake4 engine is relased!!!!! Why dont we update Tremulous to the new quake 4 engine??? Well, I dont know realy how it can be done because I have no scripting idea but maybe somebody is able to do this here!? Hi all! ViRuS
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So is raytracing just basically dynamic lighting?
Adv.Shadows, reflections etc etc.?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ed/Raytraced_image_jawray.jpg/250px-Raytraced_image_jawray.jpg)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Raytracing_reflection.png)
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If posh graphics is what you want then you're better off porting trem to Xreal or EvolutionQ3, and even these engines aren't performance whores. Of course, code porting isn't the only work required in making such a move since none of the current content was made for engines with such capabilities. All of the 2D content will need modification if the various displacement/reflection/whatever mapping among other new graphics features are to be of any use.
But whats about Motionblur or depthblur???? It is avaliable in DX10 and some games like Trackmania have the same function in DX9
Since when did tremulous use DX?
So is raytracing just basically dynamic lighting?
Read me. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytracing)
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LOL, be patient, the tecnology avdvance very fast. But whats about Motionblur or depthblur???? It is avaliable in DX10 and some games like Trackmania have the same function in DX9. This would be greate! A dretch has a limited view! :dretch:
And... Quake4 engine is relased!!!!! Why dont we update Tremulous to the new quake 4 engine??? Well, I dont know realy how it can be done because I have no scripting idea but maybe somebody is able to do this here!? Hi all! ViRuS
um, tremulous will never use DX10, since DX10 supports only one of the operating systems trem runs on (at least 3 by default, well over 10 if you spend a bit of time making it compile on the exotic ones)
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Though it would be slow on modern gaming computers, it would be a spectacle to behold.
However, I think something like the Unified Lighting and Shadowing system like in Doom3(XreaL has something such as this) would be a much better alternative since it runs much faster than raytracing and still provides some of the same affects.
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You are talking about Stencil Shadows, and yes, that is, what XREAL uses, too.
Anyway, this (http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~sidapohl/egoshooter/) is really old, and requires a special raytrace card. It is no mod for Quake 3, but a project made by a german university. Before they developed the raytrace card, they needed a cluster of 28 computers to run this modified Quake 3 version.
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Whatever the case any such overhaul of the graphics system will mean porting away from IOQ3, which isn't a trivial task. Evolution Q3 claims to be a combination of IOQ3 and XreaL (apparently IOQ3 with XreaL's rendering) which may make porting easier.
Of course do we actually need this? Specifically does a large enough portion of the community want modernised graphics enough to justify the effort of implementing it?
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I
So is raytracing just basically dynamic lighting?
Read me. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytracing)
Gee, I wonder where I got those pictures :roll:
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Keep reading me until you understand then. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytracing)
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I love you, but I still don't understand. (http://taiyo.uk.youaremighty.com/) D:
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Keep reading me until you understand then. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytracing)
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(http://www.teeful.com/photos/ABC-6-0.jpg)
>:[
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um, tremulous will never use DX10, since DX10 supports only one of the operating systems trem runs on (at least 3 by default, well over 10 if you spend a bit of time making it compile on the exotic ones)
Not necessarily. If trem on windows could use DX10, and trem on mac could use (whatever the DX equivalent on mac is), and trem on linux could use (Um... Advancce linux only graphics libraries?)
It could be optimized for each os.
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So finally what system does Tremulous use??? DirectX? Or OpenGL?
What I want to say is that some more spectacular effects couldnt be bad. So maybe somebody is able here to add som plugins to simulate motionblur or depthblur in what system Tremulous really use (DX or OpenGl...)
So.. somebody is able to compile a more spectacular and advanced graphis version of tremulous?? Well and what about advanced graphic simulation?? For example Trackmania from NADEO. This Game use DirectX 9 (DirectX 10 has in the graphic motor implented some effect like motion blur, whater effect and so on but DirectX 9 not so they must try to make a alternative) so its like having DX10 in DX9. Look at this images:
(http://www.thecrawdaddypage.com/reviewsB/shots/tms/39.jpg)
Greate whater reflection like raytracing aqua reflection.
(http://www.thecrawdaddypage.com/reviewsB/shots/tms/06.jpg)
A very nice sunshine reflection. And this in DX9!
(http://www.thecrawdaddypage.com/reviewsB/shots/tms/21.jpg)
A greate motionblur!
(http://www.thecrawdaddypage.com/reviewsB/shots/tms/26.jpg)
Wet asphalt reflectons.
(http://www.thecrawdaddypage.com/reviewsB/shots/tms/25.jpg)
The asphalt sunlight reflections are incredible! I don´t know how have they made this! But this ins´t static!!!! When the camera moves it goes with the sun
P.D: In all theese images the shadows look like Raytraced but they aren`t, a greate mode to make goot graphics with low graphic consumption.
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Tremulous uses the Quake 3 engine which uses OpenGL as it's rendering backend. The asphalt reflections are done using the reflection-mapping techniques present in almost every modern game. They are not DX-specific - for example Doom3 and Quake 4 are GL based engines that have similar graphics capabilities.
Not necessarily. If trem on windows could use DX10, and trem on mac could use (whatever the DX equivalent on mac is), and trem on linux could use (Um... Advancce linux only graphics libraries?)
It could be optimized for each os.
Writing a DX backend for a GL-only engine is a non-trivial task. OpenGL is stable and well supported on Windows, Linux and Macs (among other OSs), and the the performance difference between GL and DX is insignificant, especially for the Quake3 engine. There really isn't any reason to bloat the Tremulous code with multiple rendering backends. This will cause more problems that it solves.
The DX equivalent on macs and linux (for graphics at least) is OpenGL.
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Well, what I really wanted in the post is to show (simulated) raytracing and so. This int publicity for Trackmania but in this game there are many greate trick to simulate raytracing motion blur and so on. So maybe somebody knows about coding and is able to implant such effect (Like reflection-mapping techniques...) in Tremulous using of course OpenGL. Well, i will research more of the tricks (Techniques) they use to simulate such real effects with so few graphics usage with so real graphics (Maybe somebody know something about this techniques or/and can help me to know more about this tema). Somebody is able to code something like this in OpenGL??? And does the creatators of Tremulous allready exists?? What I mean are they even here? So maybe they can help. Thanks and Hi all, ViRuS :battlesuit:
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As has been stated before, ports of Quake 3 with realtime lighting, shadowing, etc. already exist - see XreaL (http://xreal.sourceforge.net/xrealwiki) and EvoltionQ3 (http://evolution.quakedev.com/). Porting trem to these engines will almost certainly involve less work than implementing these graphics features in the current codebase.
Then, once the code for these new features is in place, somebody has to make all of the displacement, reflection and other maps for all of the textures and skins used. Then the maps will need recompiling and possibly modification so that they suit a dynamic-lighting engine.
On a side note, the asphalt reflection in the screenshots can be partially simulated using a shader - tcGen environment will help you here.
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Is there allready such a better version of Tremulous??? And who is the creator of tremulous, do he continue devoleping tremulous??? Is somebod y able to aply XreaL or EvoltionQ3 to Tremulous??
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Is there allready such a better version of Tremulous??? And who is the creator of tremulous, do he continue devoleping tremulous??? Is somebod y able to aply XreaL or EvoltionQ3 to Tremulous??
yes(it was PITA) but evolutionq3 died and xreal is really slow moreover you need assets (maps should be redone, normal maps, specular maps) lots of assets
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The DX equivalent on macs and linux (for graphics at least) is OpenGL.
So Windows is the odd one out, figures.
How difficult would it be to add bump mapping to trem? (I am assuming that it's mostly an opengl thing that wouldn't take much time. But if it would we can just wait for Quake4 to go open source in order to get nicer graphics.)
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if it would we can just wait for Quake4 to go open source
IP minefield. For starters Creative have a patent on the depth-fail shadowing method used in Doom3/Quake4.
On the topic of adding more effects, OpenArena 0.7 (which also uses IOQ3) has added bloom. Perhaps trem could also use this?
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Why use DirectX when OpenGL3.0 is better?
www.rweb.co.nr: The game you showed uses HDR lighting to do that dynamic sunlight effect. All I want in Tremulous is HDR lighting and bump/normal mapping(and offloading more code onto the video card). We already have bloom lighting though a patch(but it's more of a evil hack than anything. Also, I don't think it does the effect through OpenGL, either).
I currently use the said bloom patch in my client I compiled by hand. It is FAR from done. An example of one of its bugs - Bloomed pixels on the sides of the screen blur into the opposite side, which is distracting because there are multiple lights just appearing out of nowhere. I'll show an example of this effect:
(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5140/shot0401kk9.th.jpg) (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0401kk9.jpg)
Notice the red light that is on the right edge of the screen. Only half of it is being shown on the screen. The bloom code is taking those bright pixels and is blooming it, and does it very well. However, the bloom effect is bleeding to the left side of the screen. To the player, this can look like an enemy coming up on the radar(for aliens) due to it being just inside of his peripheral vision, and you won't know the difference until you look, distracting you for half a second, just long enough that it gets annoying after a bunch of these artifacts keep popping up.
I don't recommend using this patch just yet as it is obviously unfinished and highly buggy. Does anyone know if this has been fixed in OpenArena yet?
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Is this patch allready avaliable?? If yes, where can I download it? Thanks, ViRuS
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bug me when bloom is fixed in openarena so I can port to tremulous in a minute.
also I saw screenshots of urban terror they show a wip water reflections
if they release the code ... I can port it (as if tremulous has lots of waters)
I dont believe all those effects existed in games released after quake3(commercial or gpled quake2) and no one implemented them to quake3. Maybe everybody is as lazy as me
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Tremulous has a too big tris count to even think in moving to XReal (Evolution Q3 is an old version of XReal). There are well known speed problems at some maps with the current renderer, and there are big bloats when bases are attacked cause Trem's gameplay is based in rushes, so all players fight in the same room. Thinking in anything slower than deluxemapping is currently a no-no, cause it will force half of the current player base to stop playing it.
EvolutionQ3 does support deluxemapping. It's a not-so-fast implementation (it's designed for real time lighting), but it's the only Q3 engine I know with it. Still, I wouldn't recommend it, even in the diffuse lighting option (Q3 lighting) it is around 4x slower than the Q3 renderer.
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bug me when bloom is fixed in openarena so I can port to tremulous in a minute.
There was a discussion on porting my bloom implementation into Q3 in here. I think they solved it at the end, but I'm not really sure. You could check it out:
http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7585&start=0
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If you could generate a .patch file I'd be happy to test it for you.
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http://openarena.ws/svn/source/bloom.diff this is Harekiet's
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That's the one I currently use. I'd love to test jal's method though.
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check the quakesrc link I created patches for ioq3 and trem and posted the links there
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so, Teh0en, you are f0rque, is it? I didn't know, wouldn't make that post if I knew.
Odin, seen the diff file from OpenArena Teh0en linked it seems to be a port of mine too. I don't know if it's the same port of not, tho.
EDIT: No, OpenArena one is based off mine, but is not a straight port.
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so, Teh0en, you are f0rque, is it? I didn't know, wouldn't make that post if I knew.
unfortunately, not even the ip button next to his posts that mods get help in identifying his many accounts.
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EDIT: No, OpenArena one is based off mine, but is not a straight port.
yes you are right but Harekiet compacted the code a lot(and removed cgame dependency ) but idea is the same(and some functions)
do you have any idea why it leaks to the opposite side?
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Not really. I'm not familiar with Q3 renderer. I'd say most of the issues at both implementations are cause of the differences in switching from 3d to 2d mode from QFusion to Q3. Probably looking in the Q3 renderer how the switch is made and modifying the bloom code to do the very same thing would fix the straight port of mine.
As for the bleeding, dunno. I mean, it bleeds cause the bluring makes it draw the samples with a little offset. I draw it inside a small projection to keep it inside the sample size. I think they removed this (it's simplified pretty nicely, but he also removed a few things I would have kept).
Also, Vic added a small fix to mine in QFusion for some bugged case (Scissored) : http://l33t.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/l33t/trunk/qfusion/source/ref_gl/r_bloom.c?view=log
But I'm not sure if the OpenArena one does it cause of the same reason. I've never even seen it in action.
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What about to migrate Tremulous to an other graphic engine like this one:
(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/Groundfog1.jpg)
(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/Spec_Wall.jpg)
Nice light mapping!
(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/FB_Distort.jpg)
Nice effects, the wather transparence effect would be greate for the Cloak Weapon in TremX.
(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/DynamicLight.jpg)
Loocking at this image think that in this moment appears a alian in front of you! :O :dretch: . Would be a nice and scarry map.
(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/SoftShadows.jpg)
No words, the image says it all!
(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/RagDoll.jpg)
Isn´t this Raytrace??? How is is possible to make so good shadows??
More here: http://www.unrealtechnology.com/html/technology/ue30.shtml
(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/EmbryHigh.jpg)
And this can be played in realtime?
And now the principal question, Is this engine allready sourcecode relased??
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this is unreal 3 engine ...
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What about to migrate Tremulous to an other graphic engine like this one:
Sure, nobody keeps you from porting it.
Isn´t this Raytrace???
No, it isn't.
How is is possible to make so good shadows??
The same way Doom 3 does it and a lot of extra shading.
And now the principal question, Is this engine allready sourcecode relased??
No, it isn't and won't be for a looooooooooooong time.
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And now the principal question, Is this engine allready sourcecode relased??
It's Unreal engine 3. It would cost several thousand dollars to use, mabey even a couple of million.
Only people with high-end computers could run it.
If/when the source code was released, it would be about as outdated then, as Quake 3 is now. Just leave Tremulous now. We don't want people as stupid as you to be here.
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I think improving the Q3 engine is a good path to take. The Q3 engine is actually a very good one, probably one of the best id has ever made.
I just wish we could get it to do more on the GPU than on the CPU. Things like the particle system for Tremulous are done on the CPU which is much slower than if it were done on the GPU.
I'd like to get kevlarman's(or some other dev's) opinion on this matter.
Does anyone know if UE3 uses baked-in lightmaps for surface lighting?
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Lol Matt... +5
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SO the last question. is it possible to add to Tremulous a raytraced like shadows like here:
(http://www.thecrawdaddypage.com/reviewsB/shots/tms/25.jpg)
Whats the name of this raytraced like shadows?
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That's probably stencil shadow volumes. Could be shadowMaps too (the shadow in that shot is too small to really appreciate it) but given how the rest of the render looks (not that good) I'd bet for stencil. The ones in the unreal 3 engine shots are shadowMaps, the ones at Doom3 are stencil.
And yes, they are possible to add to Quake3 engine, but it's quite a project on its own too.
These are shadowmaps:
(http://xreal.sourceforge.net/screenshots/softshadows/shot0026.jpg)
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To be absolutely clear, real-time ray tracing is not possible with current consumer hardware. There is no such thing as a PC that can ray trace in real time.
As has been discussed in other threads, if time is going to be spent on the rendering system it's probably best spent on moving more of work from the CPU on to the GPU.
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No Try The New Game Crysis That has to have a high end video card to play.
(http://grispernmix.googlepages.com/crysis3.jpg/crysis3-custom;size:418,314.jpg)
(http://www.techfresh.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/crysis-2007.jpg)
(http://www4.incrysis.com/screenshots/070127-1.jpg)
(http://www.incrysis.com/incgallery/268.jpg)
(http://www.incrysis.com/incgallery/78.jpg)
(http://www.incrysis.com/incgallery/237.jpg)
(http://www.incrysis.com/incgallery/351.jpg)
(http://www.incrysis.com/incgallery/22.jpg)
The word is that if you want to play this game you need to have a really good video card, and my current card Radeon X1950 PRO can not even handle it, so if I get this game I will need to upgrade it seems which sucks, I have seen demos which is awesome maybe I can post some on here.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/24071.html
There is part of a demo. But still thats not the best.
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No Try The New Game Crysis That has to have a high end video card to play.
No what? All I can see is just another scanline engine shaded to death. Raytraced games run at about 60 frames per HOUR on best current hardware :roll:
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No Try The New Game Crysis That has to have a high end video card to play.
No what? All I can see is just another scanline engine shaded to death. Raytraced games run at about 60 frames per HOUR on best current hardware :roll:
You mean Raster graphics? :D
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To be absolutely clear, real-time ray tracing is not possible with current consumer hardware.
With current consume hardware you can't even run cryengine2 :P
Seriously speaking, the only practical option for a game like tremulous right now is deluxemapping. Real time stuff would destroy the comunity.
But it also has to be deluxemapping made with speed in mind. The old XReal (Evolution Q3) supports deluxemapping, but it's designed for real time and it's slow on deluxemap mode. This is how deluxemapping looks in QFusion, with only a small speed loss from Q3 lighting (number at bottom right corner in the first shot is fps. The shot is taken with a radeon9600pro).
http://jal.quakedev.com/shots/tra3.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RwfmID8osM
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Ooops! it looks like an error. In one of the Images Oblivion showed to us there is a error. Look here:
(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2631/unbenanntum2.jpg)
The red circle shows where the error is, the green one shows where the shadow should be.
LOL, so the newest and best engines are full of basic errors. :eek:
P.D: somebody know a good physic engine?? Like the one from blender??
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To be absolutely clear, real-time ray tracing is not possible with current consumer hardware.
With current consume hardware you can't even run cryengine2 :P
Seriously speaking, the only practical option for a game like tremulous right now is deluxemapping. Real time stuff would destroy the comunity.
But it also has to be deluxemapping made with speed in mind. The old XReal (Evolution Q3) supports deluxemapping, but it's designed for real time and it's slow on deluxemap mode. This is how deluxemapping looks in QFusion, with only a small speed loss from Q3 lighting (number at bottom right corner in the first shot is fps. The shot is taken with a radeon9600pro).
http://jal.quakedev.com/shots/tra3.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RwfmID8osM
Cool!
I'll ask the obligatory: Is this portable to ioQ3?
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To be absolutely clear, real-time ray tracing is not possible with current consumer hardware.
With current consume hardware you can't even run cryengine2 :P
Seriously speaking, the only practical option for a game like tremulous right now is deluxemapping. Real time stuff would destroy the comunity.
But it also has to be deluxemapping made with speed in mind. The old XReal (Evolution Q3) supports deluxemapping, but it's designed for real time and it's slow on deluxemap mode. This is how deluxemapping looks in QFusion, with only a small speed loss from Q3 lighting (number at bottom right corner in the first shot is fps. The shot is taken with a radeon9600pro).
http://jal.quakedev.com/shots/tra3.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RwfmID8osM
i wouldn't call it a small speed loss, i get barely 20% more fps in warsow than i do in trem. (athlon 850mhz, radeon 9250, Driver "radeon")
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Well, those shots aren't from Warsow. Warsow doesn't actually make use of deluxe mapping yet. I do have a speed loss from Q3 lighting to per pixel lit, of course, but it's still at playable speed (meaning constant > 90fps with a radeon 9600pro), and when disabled it's 100% the same speeds as before its implementation. It would be playable (for real) in deluxemap mode for people with half-new cards and would keep the current rendering path with no loss for the others.
EDIT: In short, what I mean is that, of all those per-pixel-lighting solutions, it's the only one which would keep Tremulous playable on currently average user hardware. But even with this solution not every Trem player would be able of make use of it, ofc.
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Ooops! it looks like an error. In one of the Images Oblivion showed to us there is a error.
Mate, the red circle is pointing to the shadow of the chaingun.
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Ooops! it looks like an error. In one of the Images Oblivion showed to us there is a error.
Mate, the red circle is pointing to the shadow of the chaingun.
Indeed it is. In light of this revelation, I hereby declare this a definitive case of self-pwnage.
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Ooops! it looks like an error. In one of the Images Oblivion showed to us there is a error.
Mate, the red circle is pointing to the shadow of the chaingun.
LOL, you're right! :D It looks like the shadow of the leg. Grr, so the engine haven't errors. LOL.
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Grr, so the engine haven't errors.
It has errors, just none that you know of.
And it should be written, "Grr, that means the engine doesn't have errors."
I vote for deluxe mapping.
Now who can we get to change ioq3 to have it? That's the big question.
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Mate, the red circle is pointing to the shadow of the chaingun.
... which wouldn't be there if there was dynamic lightning and proper chaingun muzzle light source. :D
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chaingun muzzle light source. :D
hey there's this game called tremulous or summink that has one of those!
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additive dynamic lighting! non of that raytraced shadowmapped shader crap!
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additive dynamic lighting! non of that raytraced shadowmapped shader crap!
Yes please!
No, really. The use of multiplicative lighting is why dynamic (weapon, etc.) lights don't illuminate pitch black areas.
Additive lighting, proper model lighting (no more magic fluorescent structures), offloading more rendering work to the GPU and possibly HDR would be a great improvement without the hassle of trying to kludge tons of modern graphics features into Q3, and updating all of the content to use them.
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q3 additive lighning is crap
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additive dynamic lighting! non of that raytraced shadowmapped shader crap!
Yes please!
No, really. The use of multiplicative lighting is why dynamic (weapon, etc.) lights don't illuminate pitch black areas.
Additive lighting, proper model lighting (no more magic fluorescent structures), offloading more rendering work to the GPU and possibly HDR would be a great improvement without the hassle of trying to kludge tons of modern graphics features into Q3, and updating all of the content to use them.
While still having the ability to fall back to the old lighting methods = perfection. Somebody spearhead this.
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q3 additive lighning is crap
I know it has an unused trap for adding additive dlights, but I've never seen it in action. Why is it crap? May just be the light falloff not being nice? That'd be easy to change.
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*BUMP*
What happened to this?