Tremulous Forum
Media => Map Releases => Topic started by: soubok on May 08, 2006, 11:08:36 pm
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Hello, I am working on a new tremulous map:
http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous
Any realistic ideas/suggestions are wellcome.
(http://soubok.googlepages.com/shot0001.JPG/shot0001-medium.jpg)
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very nice, very...flesh tone.
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It looks quite ... different. :) Will you be doing a public beta test? I'd like to find out how trem handles outdoor areas and perhaps provide some feedback.
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Very nice indeed. Large maps aren't a problem as long as you can use the wallwalkig ability and the jetpack (too many big openings with no ceilings aren't good for gameplay).
Also, the outdoor-damage was a nice idea, be sure to make it worth to go out there (shortcuts, lockable doors for instance).
Btw, doors that can be locked by Humans, and vents that can be used by small Aliens are more than welcome.
Keep up the good work!
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-stage 3 will be very long to reach ( require a lot of kills )
Nice idea, that would let the jetpack vs adv-marauder part of the game shine in this map. (and open spaces are not really good for tyrants :)
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-outside part of the map will cause damage to players ( nobody can survive outside more than 5 minutes )
hhm.. might get a bit frustrating, but interesting none the less.
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-small aliens can move more easily in the map ( ventilation duct, ... )
if you mean, looong ventilations duct where humans with long-range gun can kill dretches easily or trapp them in some way, you might want to think about it (havent seen them, so i might be wrong)
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-human can lock some doors ( however there is always an alternative path )
Maybe you could block the door -just from one side- so aliens and human could do that (hence, impeding the pass of the enemy)
OR
could lock from both sides, but for a short period of time.. or something...
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AAAND..
Do the map have a name? You could make a name-this-map contest!
ALSO
In the shot0000.JPG the eggs is outside, does that mean that structures are not damaged by the burning sun? (or whatever is making it imposible to live for more than 5 mins)
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Thanks for your replies. The name of the map is 'pulse' and I will try to make beta releases as soon as possible.
About the big openings, the only one will be the outdoor area, and I will try to make damage to players and structures in this area. If it is not possible, I will disallow outdoor constructions ( I have to test this ). I decided to make outdoor because a lot of 'officials' tremulous maps have nice outdoor but they remain unreachable by players and it is very frustrating for me :)
The comment of Basilisco about doors is very intresting, if the door locking is well done, it will allow to reconfigure the map dynamically ( I think that a delay between two locks is required ! )
btw, I will try to update my page very often.
Soubok.
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It seems it is not possible to make a door that can be blocked -just from one side-. However, it is possible to lock the door (two ways) with a button.
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You could make it so only one side has a button, that would achive the effect of it being lockable from one side, sortof.
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Yes, I think this is the only solution: a button on one side that enable blocking the two sides. BTW Q3A has a huge leak of entities, for exemple, there is no toggleable doors :(, and gate entity ( like func_and ), ...
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Could also try setting an insane wait key for the door, maybe wait 0 means do not return, since -1 is return inmediately, could be wrong though. For the 'gate' entity, what do you mean exactly?
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I think about logical gates ( AND, OR, XOR ) ...
for exemple if switch1 AND switch2 are activated, the door will open.
For the moment, the only solution to make toggle doors is an horrible trick with: 1 func_train + 2 corners + 1 func_delay + 1 func_relay + trigger_multiple.
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A new screenshot :
(http://soubok.googlepages.com/shot0006.jpg/shot0006-full.jpg)
( there are more screenshots at http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous )
What do you think about :
- the brightness ?
- the corridor design ?
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I think we all could be thankful to you for making this map and being so creative. Keep it up.
Brightness is ok I think. Open an existing, official map and find the gamma settings on them. That would be the best standard you can get.
Also, the corridor looks well-done. A minor problem could be that wallwalking Aliens could have big problems on the ceiling with those lights, lamps, pipes and stuff. But it looks very good this way, definiately.
Feedback needed from Alien players! :D (I never play as an Alien :P ).
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looks nice, but the wall-decoration will piss wallwalking aliens off^^
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HU! HA! that monitor looks sweet! (and its a first for tremulous)
You could try to add traces of sand and footprints near the entrance (you know, for all the sand outside) that would make it look cool! *ahem* more believable.
And one thing. the floor in the command center shuold look more like a floor. Because now it seems just like the walls and the ceiling. Try to unify it with the corridors and the rest of the map.
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I will try to take in account the aliens ceiling/wall walking ( but remember that aliens can walk under the floor ).
I think that it is hard to find a good compromise between simple (sad) rooms that make wallwalking easy and comblex rooms ( with candy-eye ) that is a problem with wallwalking.
For the moment, the floor of the base is made in the same concrete that the walls, I want to keep the 'raw' environment. I will try another texture for the floors.
Traces of sand and footprints near the entrance is a good idea, thanks. ( BTW, I have noticed that the '_decal - info_null' feature do not work properly, the decal flickes )
I have another problem: the image of the camera (portal) is moving ( slow rotation ). Do you know how to avoid this ??
- soub -
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When you map is ready for a gameplaytest just contact me via PM and I will upload and cycle it on our testserver! ;)
Cheers, Danny
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Just be sure the walls are covered with whatever clip brush the trem map authors used in the originals so there's not alot of weird wallwalkexperiences.
BRightness: Could be a smidge darker for an ambient feel, right now from the picture it looks full bright, and while trem aliens don't rely on darkness it helps to set a 'mood'
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Just be sure the walls are covered with whatever clip brush the trem map authors used in the originals so there's not alot of weird wallwalkexperiences.
BRightness: Could be a smidge darker for an ambient feel, right now from the picture it looks full bright, and while trem aliens don't rely on darkness it helps to set a 'mood'
i think the gamma for his client (not the map) is up, because the shadows look ugly^^
so the "original" will be darker
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It is true, I forget to reset my gamma settings for the screenshots
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This map is looking really good.
I usually play alien, and wall decorations are often a pain, ATCS is one of the best maps for wallwalking, but it has extremely plain walls. The main advantage of really plain walls is it allows for conrolled, erratic "corkscrewing". This is even better than usual dodging, because the dretch is just going everywhere. Decorated walls make this maneuver very hard. (However, the walls do a look a lot cooler.)
Arachnid has good, alien friendly complicated walls. You'll notice most of the decorations in Arachnid are vertical. This allows shooting to the ceiling and hiding on the wall behind a bulkhead. I particularly like this config, because it lets me get into a nook above the humans' head height, and wait for one to pass (then, drop and follow, grabbing a couple shots before he can even see me).
The ability to get under the floor boards is cool, however, it looks like you can shoot through it. Are there places which aren't grating where a dretch can take cover? That might be worthwhile. Is it easy to get back out to get the drop on a human?
Don't deconstruct all your hard work on my advise though. It looks good, and these considerations don't effect bigger bugs.
When moving as a Maurader, lips and overhangs are the most annoying things to me. Stretches of plain vertical wall next to and below platforms are great for Mauraders. In transit, instead of taking the stairs up to the human base (where the three donut balconies, the bottom one with the busted floor are), I'll wall jump up the flat area right next to it, you can quickly get up to the third platform with just a few attempts. Then you only have to take the last platform.
The platform above the alien base in arachnid also has some similar tricks. You can launch over the door (to the ramp) to get there, or you can head over to the other side of the OM platform and shoot up that wall. This is kind of delicate, because I often overshoot the whole platform on last jump.
Anyway, my point is that long stretches of relatively flat wall (any direction, so vertical decorations are nice here too) will allow a Maurader to travel very quickly along it.
Dragoons just have a built in rocket hop, so designing for them is not much different than for normal maps or speed trial maps.
Tyrants don't like ladders. Or raised platforms. The default human bases on niveus and tremor are both very nice for tyrant rushes. However, don't get stuck downstairs with a tyrant on tremor. There's no way out. Not that that is bad. It keeps the S3 aliens on their toes.
These are just considerations and things to be aware of. Either design to block this stuff, or design to allow it (usually want to do both, if you want areas that are friendly to one side or the other, and you would usually want both on the same map, for balance).
Anyway, I'm looking forward to this map. Keep up the good work.
Jeff
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Your remarks are very intresting, and I will do my best to take them in account. However, my map have an horizontal design ( because the ceilings of my corridors are low ).
To add more vertical elements, I can add some junctions between floors, and I can make rooms with high ceilings ( this can create a good contrast between narrow corridors and high rooms ).
About the floor boards, I will try to make them 'solid', so we can just see through them but not shoot through them.
I built my corridor sections as 'prefab' elements, so it is not too hard to modify them ( copy/past is my friend ).
I will release a beta version before adding too many custom decoration to my corridors.
- soub -
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(http://soubok.googlepages.com/shot0019.jpg/shot0019-full.jpg)
Hello, I am working hard on my map, and I am pleased to show you a lot of new screenshots here (http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous) ( r_gamma is 1.875000 )
don't hesitate to comment them !
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Its looking gooood, and HUUUGE
looks like the door are still going to open so, can goons still snipe you? (that would be nice :)
We need to beta test this map!!! wiiiiiii
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Looks gorgeous 8) . Dretches will own this map, because of the large number of obstacles and ramps you made, but if the corridors and rooms are big enough, that won't be a big problem :) .
Also, on you homepage, there was a question: 'how to make toggleable lights?'. It would be a good idea and a major 'gloomy' (:D) concept if you could add to some corridors or to one or two rooms a little dynamic light. So, it wouldn't be a toggleable lightsource, but a flickering, red or a little dark glow (like defective lamps on the ceiling). You can also make a strategically important corridor to have a dynamic-light-trigger: let's say, the lights would go off in every minute for 10-15 seconds. So it would be dangerous to run or walk through that corridor/room to reach the opposing team :) .
Keep up the good work, and make us a beta version to test with :D.
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The map seems to be huge but I think that it is not the case. I will try to get times to travel form Human to Alien base on officials maps.
About the door, you can get killed if you stay between while the security system is activated, you have 1second delay to move when you heard the button is activated.
About the lighting, I will use some dynamic (blinking) in some corridors to distinguish them.
A dynamic (switch based ) lighting is very hard to make with Q3A engine. The only solution I know is based on shader replacing ( eg. two shaders for a wall; the lit one wth a lightmap stage, and the dark one without the light stage. This means duplicate all shaders hit by the switchable light ). However, it can be a very cool gameplay element.
I am really near to release a beta-alpha version of my map, I need to make two more rooms : the stock, the bedrooms.
Thanks for the feedback.
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I like the door idea :D , will be fun when you close the door right infront of someone you don't like whilst 4 tyrants, 3 dragoons and 8 dretches are coming down the corridor :) .
Nonetheless i won't be doing that i think, might be yelled at for feeding the aliens :) .
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hmmm :) I will use a longer delay to close the door after the button is pressed, or make the door close slowly.
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Having the door closing instantly but slowly is the best way. So you can leave dragoons behind, but at the same time not being completely safe from smaller aliens.
Another thing, how do the outside enviroment affect jetpackers? will it make them fall a bit? or just lose health progressively?
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Ok for the door, it's a good idea.
About the outside enviroment, jetpackers will not be able to use their jetpack because they will be damaged every second ( -2 health ). Perhaps I will make some 'safe' areas in the shadow of the big sun.
BTW what is the max regeneration rate for aliens ?
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(http://soubok.googlepages.com/shot0032.jpg/shot0032-large.jpg)
A picture of the warehouse room.
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That could make some deadly human base... :eek:
Can't wait to playtest it, though! Keep it up! ;)
Danny
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I will try to release the first beta this week-end. There will miss a lot of thinks but the map will be playable. candy-eye will come later.
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Important things first, I like that! ;)
I will be at a family meeting from thursday morning till sunday. I guess I will get to upload your map to the db@ derelict server sunday night, if you want it there... ;)
I am also able to provide a fast download mirror, if the need arises...
Danny
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I find it just a bit too big for my liking but other then that it's a good map. I'm not aware of any map glitchs at the moment.
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On screenshots, the map seems to be big, but ingame, I think it is not the case (compile time with lights: 15min ;) - THANKS TO DETAIL BRUSH !! - ) . the rooms are very different, so I think you cannot get lost, perhaps only in corridors ( because they resemble each other ). To avoid to confuse them, I will customize them.
BTW, the last room ( the water tank ):
(http://soubok.googlepages.com/shot0036.jpg/shot0036-large.jpg) (http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous)
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Of all the new maps, this is the one that pop ups more. It has a lot of identifiable rooms.
The dynamic light will probably slow things a bit, like in some hallways in the gloom2 map for example. (Not for all computers of course)
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Do the water tank has water in it? doesnt look like it but i need to ask :)
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How do you get on the shelves in the warehouse? jetpacks only?
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How is the screen in the control room going? Is it fixed?
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Yes, I think my rooms are well identifiable. I will add signs with arrows to help more.
Dynamic light is not a pain for my computer, because they are all shader-based ( thanks to ydnar ).
There is water in the water tank ( 1/10 of the room height ). You can swim, drown ( BTW, sound/player/gurp2.wav is missing, I have to record it myself )
In the warehouse, you can get the shelves by climbing the corners ( like ladders ), or perhaps, if needed (not sure), I will add a ventilation duct in the ceilling.
In the control room, screens seems to work well.
(http://soubok.googlepages.com/shot0040.jpg/shot0040-large.jpg)
...It,s me.
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If you don't want signs ask Catalyc/Jex how they accomplished their locational ents. Both their betas have locations in a players messages wherever they stand.
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You mentioned that you doubled everything on the map... why?
Dont do things that will *unessicarily* make the map run worse, especially if the effect is very minor as a whole. Some of us dont run on super computers, remeber that.
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Don't worry, except in front of the mirror, I have 90 fps anywhere else with my old computer ( AMD 1800+, geforce4 440MX ).
( hmm, I don't understand what I doubled )
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If you don't want signs ask Catalyc/Jex how they accomplished their locational ents. Both their betas have locations in a players messages wherever they stand.
Oh yeah. Those message tweaks are really useful. They should be in every tremulous map from now on.
And you already named all the rooms, so it wouldn't be like EXTRA work :)
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i'm not sure i like the idea of damage outside - it's to the advantage of aliens.
aliens heal, and can camp in a shady spot for a while. By the time a human gets across, they might be down to half health, and having a medi on the other side would be a waste of points.
i like the idea of no buildings outside, though.
The only other problem i can see is humans having an advantage in open areas, due to lasgun, etc
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Aliens can only heal once the damage stops, and most likely the entire outside area is a big damage box, so no 'shady spots' to hide in.
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I did the whole damage outside thing in gloom in one of my maps. Was a toggle-able effect (poorly done but it was there) I can state for a fact aliens will LOATHE your map for it. Especially if the area is in a 'must travel' route. If it's off to the side and no big deal then aliens may not hound you for your head on a pike but from experience, if you put a damage area in one of the attack routes aliens will hate you.
The key point to remember:
Aliens below mar/goon have LESS health than your basic grunt. Hence will die FASTER than a grunt traversing it, making that kind of area a death trap for early aliens while humans can cross and gain health quickly.
And from experience, ask what gloomers thought about the 'Cold' I did in Crisis at Ice Station 8. The main route was such a death trap. If humans reached the control for shutting off the shield (thus activating the environmental conditions) aliens were seriously screwed as hatchlings (much like dretches) only have 25 health. So even on a 1 damage per second setting they got owned....
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Hi,
I think it is a good idea to use "locational ents" the map ( perhaps in beta 2 ).
About the damage outside, I will try with damage only in the beta 1, and if it is not good, I will use nobuild, and dmg in the pit and near the ceiling. Because the outdoor is very high, I have to avoid aliens to hide in "shady spot" ( no pb. with humans, their jetpack will not work if their reactor is down ).
When a human travels from landing platform to the base entrance, he will be hit by 20 health points ( it is not too much ).
I will release the first version of my map this evening, and you will be able to play on the "#db@Derelict (Pub Test)" server (thanks to megabite).
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Looks promising, kind of proper website too. Good luck!
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Played+tested
I have to say, the halways, although they look very good, are very complex. I often found myself getting lost in them. They look alittle too much alike. Also, never, ever, have pitch black rooms unless you can clearly see the exit as soon as you enter, or it has a point in the room that you can see (like a blinking light) as a point of reference and some light. Just to be on the safe side, try not to have completly pitch black rooms. We dont have flashlights you know :)
Also, the human teleporters outside get destroyed due to damage.
And i dont like how the human team starts on a landing pad that is a long way away from the start. I wouldnt mind them starting outside if it was ALOT closer, but right now, it sucks to say the least. Kinda hinders base building.
I am assuming you cant build outside aswell. If you can, thats a huge disadantage to the aliens, as the humans can build outside and close the door to not let any aliens in. Just make it so you can open the door from both sides.
As a matter of fact, I woudl like to see the outside have more purpose than the intial stretch. A good example is the map Karath. The outside is actually an optional path you can take. Somthing similar would be pretty neat for this map, except minus the exact style that Karath does (for orignonality). Perhaps have the half of the entire map be outdoors optionally or somthing similar for added coolness? I mean, the outside in this map could be similar to how the basement tunnels work in Tremor. Such as, above the base (or around it) could be an entire above ground area that would be a dangerous path to take, but mabey helpfull if your doing a raid.
In all, i like some of the concepts (OMG CAMERAS!!) of the map, and the detail is pretty good for the map as a beta 1, but it could use some balancing work and a serious fix up to be really playable 8)
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Aliens can only heal once the damage stops, and most likely the entire outside area is a big damage box, so no 'shady spots' to hide in.
regardless, they can still heal once out of the area (although, i assume there would be a barricade of turrets at the other side :P )
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Hi,
you will never get lost any more in my map, ... corridors customization has start
(http://soubok.googlepages.com/shot0054.jpg/shot0054-large.jpg)
( 2 more screenshots on my site (http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous) )
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The map is looking really good, but those flashing hallways slow my computer a lot. I get below 30fps without anyone else playing.
And the pitch black areas are unplayable, some lights there would help (or just making the light coming from the small open in the wall-top join brighter.
The screens are nice too, not real screen but more like a view portal with 3d tracking system *ahem*... :P good job
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Oh, and the shelves in the warehouse are a bit too easy to climb for humans. Is there a way to slow it down a bit?
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Wow, i love the window. Map looks great, now just time to tackle those gameplay bugs :)
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All gameplay bugs has been fixed, before to release the BETA 2 (perhaps this w-e or monday) I have to avoid ppl to be lost in my level.
Another question I have, is how to avoid team camping ( think camping like in karith, when human team success to install the base in the elevator room ) ??
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To stop that situation you should try have atleast two entrances(proper doorways, not vents) into any room, as with Karith they just spam turrets at the only entrance.
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i haven't played, but do the camera actually work? as in, you look at a virutal screen and see through the camera?
if so, AWESOME!!
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yes it is
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Kinda sideways request.
Can you change the name of this topic to include the name of the map instead of just "a new tremulous map"? :)
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Soubok, do you have any ETA on the time remaining of beta02?
Some people keep asking me, and it would be nice to give them an answer to satisfy their curiosity :wink: :) .
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I think that I will release the BETA 2 of pulse this evening ( if everything goes right )
I have some issues with compilation and performance ( PVS too big )
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Yay ^^, can't wait for it, i'll send Megabite a mail about it IF it will be this evening :) .
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BTW, do you know how to reduce the PVS ( Potentially Visible Set ).
The issue is:
The game seems to draw some parts of the map even if they are not visible, or not directly connected to a visible part.
Sometimes I can see the half of my map with /r_showtris 1
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I absolutley don't have any clue, but i've googled it, and found these document's, that you may find interesting :) .
https://zerowing.idsoftware.com/svn/radiant.gamepacks/Q3Rad_Manual/trunk/ch12/pg12_1.htm
http://www.destroyermaps.ch/foren/viewtopic.php?t=992&sid=56
I'm sorry if this doesn't help :( .
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You need to optimise the brushes so that the game knows how to cut triangles. I'm just starting on Quake 3 map editing myself so I have little help to give you but here is what I know :
- Use portals which split the world in multiple zones. If the game decides it cannot see a portal, it won't display any polygon from the zone behind that portal. Most of the time, portals are best made very small themselves, like in a corridor. Warning, it seems Quake 3 is limited to 16 zones per map where Unreal 1 was limited to 64 itself :)
- Make sure you have perfectly solid brushes as walls. If you create a too complex brush as a wall, it can either have some leak or maybe the engine won't be able to detect that such brush blocks the view. Check you walls that should block the view for leaks in them.
- Use anti portals : they are invisible brushes that tell the engine they block the view. That's an UT2003 feature so I'm not sure they are available in Quake 3. They are best used when you place some very complex decoration which the mapper knows it blocks the view but the engine cannot find that on it's own. Bad antiportal usage can result in HoM effects easily.
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Very nice.... Cant wait till it comes out. I love the cant stay outside thing. It adds a certain... twist to it.
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Got three more points:
- Use hint-brushes at corners.
- Compile with fullvis, fastvis does not optimize much.
- Never use areaportals in tremulous maps.
Why not use areaportals? Because it blocks radar!
It seems that the radar-information in tremulous is gathered partly by the renderer. If the area behind a portal cannot be "seen", the radar is also blind.
Example: There is an area portal, humans have just built their defense behind that door/portal, 3 or 4 turrets.
Any alien standing before that door will see nothing(!) on the sentience radar. Opening the door will come with quite a surprise then... ;)
Danny
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Actually using areaportals could be kinda fun for areas where radar is suppose to be jammed/disrupted....could make an interesting effect....
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yes, it can be a good gameplay element !!
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If there are jammed radar zones (i have no idea how the hell the alien radar works, but it shouldnt be jammed as a human one) you could put some signs (radiation signs or whatever). And maybe, just to stop humans from building right behind the doors you could make that "jammed area" non-buildable.
The new watchtower looks nice, but i must say, i liked the old one better :), and before that, i liked the first one better :P. Maybe i just like the rusty style :D .
What changes have you made so far?
Did you consider making the ourside more playable?
Fixed the generator area?
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if I will create a jammed radar zone, it will be a very small zone. a safe deposit for example ( any other idea is wellcome )
since the BETA 2, I made a LOT of changes :
- VIS optimizations
- bugs fix
- corridors & under floor height
- better lighting
- more hidden places for aliens
- new way from between entrance vent and watch-tower
- new way from the broken generator to the outdoor
- better water exit
- more ambiant sounds
- colored signs
- ...
Now I will work on the outdoor area. I need some ideas to make this zone more playable.
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Btw, there's a shader setting you can use to force the signpost textures always at max quality level. It'll solve the problem people have reading them at lower quality settings.
http://www.heppler.com/shader/shader/section3.htm#3.5
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The outdoor area really has to have another way to enter from the inside. Once human spawns are outside it is practically impossible for aliens to win. Last man standing could barricade himself outside and let aliens wait half an hour for a draw / timelimit.
Have had that situation in a game today. After some 5 minutes players from the alien team started leaving the server, lack of action. :(
Danny
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The "nobuild" outside the base will be the best solution. ( of course, a prebuilt base will exist inside )
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I've been thinking about how to improve the game outside a bit. One drastic change would be to lower the damage outside (for players not buildings), and make something interesting to reach there. I don't know, maybe you could make an extra control center outside (more like a bunker) with an entrance right outside(inside lock only), and a corridor coming from the main map.
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5253/shot00016fw.jpg)
This bunker/command center otuside needs another changed around the map. Like a change in the lock system of that big entrance door (maybe a timer after 5 mins or something). And who knows...
hhhm.. im now thinking that thind may not really work lol, but i already did the super-kewl-paint-drawing so.. hhhm.. you tell me what you think :P
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The "nobuild" outside the base will be the best solution.
If the complete area is non buildable, it is completely useless for gameplay and should be sealed off as an optical gimmick.
The only other funtion it has in its current state is providing a place to hide for a last man standing, possibly ruining the game. :(
Danny
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At the begining, for me, the outdoor area was just for the trip to the base entrance.
The good news is that the next version will have a new target_hurt target ( more details (http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous) ).
The current state of my map is pretty good, all bugs/suggestions has been included. The BETA 3 ( my last beta ) will be released in two steps: a private beta release ( 1 or 2 days before ), and then the public beta release.
therefore it is time for last comments before I release.
Thanks.
click here (http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous) or here (http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous)
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And for who is that private beta release?
Anyhow, i found another bug, if you go down a canyon with a jetpack, and build something there, you can build a base there, because it only damages the building(s), i hope this will be fixed with the new triggers :wink: :) .
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And for who is that private beta release?
You and me, on my private server :D
And yes, the the new trigger will (definitely) fix this issue ( already tested ).
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Cool 8) .
Also, a bug: If i open a door manually by the switch at the door itself, it doesn't update the lights in the control room.
Hope it will be fixed soon.
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BTW, do you know how to reduce the PVS ( Potentially Visible Set ).
The issue is:
The game seems to draw some parts of the map even if they are not visible, or not directly connected to a visible part.
Sometimes I can see the half of my map with /r_showtris 1
I just tested this out, not just on your map but on many of the maps, it seems to be the case the pvs isnt very efficent, also I noticed that (solid) doors do not seem to affect the pvs in any way, when they could obvioulsty be used to cull out lots of geometry when they are closed.
Is this to do with the quake 3 engine in general, the map compiler, bsps in general, just be being a noob?
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Using that on doors would mean inducing some lag since the area behind it is loaded on opening, I don't know if you've ever noticed the human base in niveus on a laggy server but sometimes it takes time for the player entities and structures to load, could mean death for the aliens. It also affects alien sense, try it out with r_showtris on. I suggest niveus because the corner near the human base is such a clear example of it.
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Using that on doors would mean inducing some lag since the area behind it is loaded on opening, I don't know if you've ever noticed the human base in niveus on a laggy server but sometimes it takes time for the player entities and structures to load, could mean death for the aliens. It also affects alien sense, try it out with r_showtris on. I suggest niveus because the corner near the human base is such a clear example of it.
Yes i have seen that effect, but dont know see it is relevant.
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I just tested this out, not just on your map but on many of the maps, it seems to be the case the pvs isnt very efficent, also I noticed that (solid) doors do not seem to affect the pvs in any way, when they could obvioulsty be used to cull out lots of geometry when they are closed.
That can be done using areaportals. Problem with areaportals in tremulous is that they do not only block pvs but also radar.
Only chance to reduce pvs without "jamming" the radar is using lots of well placed hint brushes. Jex has posted a tutorial about visibility in the mapping guide as far as I know.
Danny
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Using that on doors would mean inducing some lag since the area behind it is loaded on opening, I don't know if you've ever noticed the human base in niveus on a laggy server but sometimes it takes time for the player entities and structures to load, could mean death for the aliens. It also affects alien sense, try it out with r_showtris on. I suggest niveus because the corner near the human base is such a clear example of it.
Yes i have seen that effect, but dont know see it is relevant.
Not relevant? Aliens not seeing marines coming or turrets behind a door or around a corner not relevant?
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What exactly is the problem with areaportals and the radar ? As far as I can see it, any effort mappers do so that the engine doesn't foolishly draw all of the level causes the radar to fail. This is a radar bug, not a map bug. The question is to know if we should work with the radar bugs or not ;)
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I agree with you, I think this is a radar "issue". The radar seems to strongly depend on the current PVS to display things. The issue should be the same in the whole map, but in the case of areaportal (when its related door is closing), the line of sight is broken instantly, consequently the points on the radar disappear instantly.
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What exactly is the problem with areaportals and the radar ?
The problem is, that an areaportal is blocking the radar for things behind a door you are standing in front of!
Hint portals prevent the engine from drawing things around the second corner from your point of view (given there are hint portals at those corners). This is usually sufficient to get decent r_speeds and does not block radar in any way.
It is not really a bug of the radar, it is how the thing works. It takes information from the renderer client-side to create radar information. To work around this "bug" the radar system would have to be completely rewritten and made a server-side thing... that would increase traffic, lag the information a bit, may even give radar information that is contradictory to what you see.
Simply put: Use hints, not areaportals... ;)
Danny
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Megabite"]What exactly is the problem with areaportals and the radar ?
The problem is, that an areaportal is blocking the radar for things behind a door you are standing in front of!
Hint portals prevent the engine from drawing things around the second corner from your point of view (given there are hint portals at those corners). This is usually sufficient to get decent r_speeds and does not block radar in any way.
It is not really a bug of the radar, it is how the thing works. It takes information from the renderer client-side to create radar information. To work around this "bug" the radar system would have to be completely rewritten and made a server-side thing... that would increase traffic, lag the information a bit, may even give radar information that is contradictory to what you see.
Simply put: Use hints, not areaportals... ;)
Danny
Areaportals aren't meant to be placed inside doors only :) For my time of Unreal mapping, I consider them a better tech ( easier to use ) than hint brushes to reduce the PVS. And placing them inside doors to reduce the PVS when closed is cute, but doesn't help at all when the door is open which might happen quite often. That last optimisation is a bad one in my opinion. Better to make the level fast with all doors open :) Also, since it reduces the problems of the radar near closed doors, that's another reason not to do that :)
But from what I understand, hints would cause radar bugs too. I have quite often the problem that radar doesn't work around corners. Should we stop using hint brushed because of that too ? The only correct solution is to fix the radar bug.
PS : human radar is already inacurate and lags a lot. It wouldn't matter at all if it was all server side ;)
PPS : you say radar is a client side thing ? Wrong : it is both. Radar is linked to what the server considers relevant information. If the server considers that player A cannot see player B because B isn't in the PVS of player A, then A doesn't even know B is here and so, A cannot draw B in its radar. That's the exact cause of the radar bug.
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Areaportals aren't meant to be placed inside doors only :) For my time of Unreal mapping...
According to all my sources Quake engine games can place areaportals only inside door brushes. I have tried to place them in a corridor but the best effect you get is simply nothing or a nice HOM.
As Unreal is a completely different engine you really cannot compare mapping features, even if they are called the same.
But from what I understand, hints would cause radar bugs too. I have quite often the problem that radar doesn't work around corners. Should we stop using hint brushed because of that too ? The only correct solution is to fix the radar bug.
Usually the next corner or two are calculated, even when there is a hint brush. The engine knows you may go around that corner in a few frames and precalculates enough to have a nice buffer. Of course some things "near" but around 3 corners may not appear on radar, but they will not instantly appear in front of you, either.
PS : human radar is already inacurate and lags a lot. It wouldn't matter at all if it was all server side ;)
Trust me, it would... ;)
PPS : you say radar is a client side thing ? Wrong : it is both. Radar is linked to what the server considers relevant information. If the server considers that player A cannot see player B because B isn't in the PVS of player A, then A doesn't even know B is here and so, A cannot draw B in its radar. That's the exact cause of the radar bug.
Of course the client gets positional data from the server, where else? Okay, there is client prediction... but thats more like smoothing the details.
But the server does not get any PVS data from the client! The server sees the whole map all the time and calculates player positioning and actions. But PVS is totally clientside as it is work of the renderer! If PVS-data would be sent around you would have 10 times the network traffic and hell of a lag.
This is why wallhacks and the tremulous radar system are possible... ;)
Danny
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Megabite"]Areaportals aren't meant to be placed inside doors only :) For my time of Unreal mapping...
According to all my sources Quake engine games can place areaportals only inside door brushes. I have tried to place them in a corridor but the best effect you get is simply nothing or a nice HOM.
As Unreal is a completely different engine you really cannot compare mapping features, even if they are called the same.
I'll have to test myself that some day. Looking at the feature description, it really looks like the same thing :)
Megabite"]But from what I understand, hints would cause radar bugs too. I have quite often the problem that radar doesn't work around corners. Should we stop using hint brushed because of that too ? The only correct solution is to fix the radar bug.
Usually the next corner or two are calculated, even when there is a hint brush. The engine knows you may go around that corner in a few frames and precalculates enough to have a nice buffer. Of course some things "near" but around 3 corners may not appear on radar, but they will not instantly appear in front of you, either.
PS : human radar is already inacurate and lags a lot. It wouldn't matter at all if it was all server side ;)
Trust me, it would... ;)
On the other hand, if the client knows where to place the blips, it's because the server told them where are the players/buildings. Now if the server started to send "radar blip" objects along with the player info with the difference that radar blips are only sent by proximity, clients would get a perfectly accurate radar without PVS problems.
Megabite"]But the server does not get any PVS data from the client! The server sees the whole map all the time and calculates player positioning and actions. But PVS is totally clientside as it is work of the renderer! If PVS-data would be sent around you would have 10 times the network traffic and hell of a lag.
This is why wallhacks and the tremulous radar system are possible... ;)
Danny
Now, that's where I do not agree with you ! Question, why does items behind a closed door with an areaportal disapear from the radar ? Answer : because the server didn't tell the client about them. How does the server knows the client cannot see them ? The exact same way the client decides which part of the level it can see. And so, at each place the PVS for the client includes the whole level, the server will send those players all the info about all the entities in the game.
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On the other hand, if the client knows where to place the blips, it's because the server told them where are the players/buildings. Now if the server started to send "radar blip" objects along with the player info with the difference that radar blips are only sent by proximity, clients would get a perfectly accurate radar without PVS problems.
Now, that's where I do not agree with you ! Question, why does items behind a closed door with an areaportal disapear from the radar ? Answer : because the server didn't tell the client about them.
Wrong, because the areaportal blocks PVS on the renderer.
How does the server knows the client cannot see them ? The exact same way the client decides which part of the level it can see. And so, at each place the PVS for the client includes the whole level, the server will send those players all the info about all the entities in the game.
Player positioning has nothing to do with PVS! The server calculates all player and entity positions and sends the to the client. The renderer on the client decides by VIS data in the bsp which parts of the map (filled with client and entity positions by the server) are drawn, depending on the position of the client player camera.
And for a last time: PVS is a technique to increase framerate on the client by not drawing things that cannot be seen.
The server does not care what the player can see, it only cares what a player can hit (either by shooting or by standing on or by running into), that is called collision detection and has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with PVS.
Danny
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------- Comment #1 From Tim Angus 2006-05-16 17:05 [reply] -------
As you say in your last paragraph, the "missing" items are due to them not
being in the player's PVS. It was decided that the current PVS is "enough"
range for the alien sense.
Changing this behaviour would entail actually sending all the entity positions
over the network -- something that should really be avoided if at all possible.
The game server uses the same vis information than the client for network optimisations. It uses that info to decide if player A can potentialy see player B ( ie, it checks if B is part of A's PVS ) and if not, it doesn't send to A the informations about B. When that happens, that's what I call "B isn't relevant for A". And that is the reason why B is missing on A's radar despite beeing in range.[/quote]
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Okay, good point, that was not know to me... ;)
You would still have to rewrite that part of the server code and work around the native way to make radar usable with areaportals generating additional calculations and network traffic.
Only to make areaportals workable that are not really needed anyway. There are huge maps with high polycount like arachnid2 that work without areaportals (there simply are no doors) and draw reasonalbe parts of the map with radar working well in any situation.
You see: Well placed hint brushed do the same job.
Danny
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Yeah, it would have been a shame if the clients got all the info about the other players and just didn't display it on the radar. That one would have been an unaceptable bug in my opinion ;)
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The server only needs to send radar datas within the player's radar range ( usually a small radius ).
So the trafic overload could be low.
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The server only needs to send radar datas within the player's radar range ( usually a small radius ).
So the trafic overload could be low.
Hey Soubok, how do i know when the private release and public release of pulse beta03, PM?
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yes, PM or IRC, like the last time.
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Hi,
I will release the BETA 3 version of my map in 2 days ( 2006.06.29 )
I have updated my web site (http://soubok.googlepages.com/tremulous) to give more details about the BETA 3.
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Great, cant wait for the private test :) .
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Found a minor bug: Dretches can walk under one of the pipes leading to the water tank, where it emerges from the wall by the stairs in the tunnel. There are no textures on the part that you can walk through. You have to drop between the pipes or go into the area under the stairs to see it. Also the shading on much of the pipework looks flat whereas it was smooth in b2.
Excellent map though, IMHO b3 is a great improvment over b2 with the second entrance. The ambient sound adds alot of atmosphere to the game.
-Taiyo