Tremulous Forum
Community => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: Survivor on May 09, 2006, 11:53:04 pm
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Human building in general:
Human structures have few advantages over alien structures. Actually the only advantage they have is that the human defences are more effective if placed correctly and closely together. Human bases should be compact yet have as much cover as possible.
The following rules apply to human builders.
1: Reactor moves should be quickly planned and not the work of a single builder without support.
Reason: Quick annihilation by the alien team.
2: Do not put turrets or teslas in the retreat path of your team members.
Reason: It sucks to get killed on the home stretch when it could have been prevented.
TURRETS BLOCKING RETREAT
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Drietand/TremulousHumanBuildings/blocking.jpg)
WORSE, 2 TURRETS BLOCKING RETREAT AND 2 TURRETS
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Drietand/TremulousHumanBuildings/doubleblocking.jpg)
3: Humans do not benefit from forward bases.
Reason: their bases do not automatically regenerate nor can be hidden from aliens.
4: Defences should not be built in groups of 1 or 2.
Reason: A basilisk is able to take out a single turret easily, good players can take on two.
5: Bases should preferably be built in rooms or hallways with low ceilings.
Reason: Aliens become severely limited when they do not have any movement space.
EXAMPLE BASE (note that there are many spots and many configurations possible this is only one.)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Drietand/TremulousHumanBuildings/base1.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Drietand/TremulousHumanBuildings/base2.jpg)
6: All buildings are vulnerable to the advanced dragoon's barbs.
7: Defences are nothing without human support when playing against a good alien team.
Name: Reactor Building Points: 0
HP: 930
Range: Very Short Aim: Spherical
Use: The Reactor is the single most important building on the human team allowing other constructions and energy based weapon recharges. Without only the telenodes will function. When a reactor goes down get it up quickly again. Without a reactor defenses are not powered, jetpacks fail to function and people cannot heal on the medistation nor buy equipment from the armoury. Without the reactor no new buildings can be constructed either. It takes long to construct so be damn sure you have the time to reconstruct it where you want.
Loc: The Reactor has a somewhat powerful defence against the melee aliens. It’s weak point however is it’s top. It only dishes out 2 points of damage per second to aliens located on the top of it. This is one major concern along with the other one being accessibility to higher level aliens like advanced dragoons or tyrants. Keeping this in mind the Reactors top should either be inaccessible or covered by a turret. On it’s general location it should be the centre of everything that you build. All defences and supporting structures serve to protect it. Putting it to the side of the room is most common.
Name: Telenode Building Points: 10
HP: 310
Use: Telenodes are the spawn locations for the human team. Their hitbox is also quite low, might want to keep this in mind when destroying them with larger aliens.
Loc: They should be built in spots where tyrants, marauders and dragoons cannot easily get.
Name: Armoury Building Points: 10
HP: 280
Use: The armoury is the upgrade centre of the human team. They can buy armour, weapons and equipment from it and reload their ammunition based weapons here. It is weak to the advanced dragoon’s barbs due to its large hitbox. A single salvo will usually take it out.
Loc: Due to the barbs it should be placed out of sight, yet it also needs to be quickly accessible from the telenodes.
Name: Medistation Building Points: 8
HP: 190
Use: This building is used to heal wounded humans and restore their portable medikits.
Loc: Most people prefer to put it near the armoury so that people can change equipment while healing. Not a bad idea but remember there will sometimes be a line of waiting people who might be easy pickings for the daring marauder. It is not truly necessary but try to treat it like a telenode.
Name: Repeater Building Points: 0
HP: 250
Use: The Repeater is used to expand the Reactor’s powergrid. It’s only permanent use is to put defences in a more profitable position just a tiny but further than the reactor allows or as a temporary forward recharge point for energy based weapons. It can be used to block incoming or retreating tyrants for a few seconds as well. Best use is in base relocation stage 2 and up. Put up a repeater and spare defenses, move nodes and armoury, lastly decon and recon reactor, all under cover of allies. If it does not power any structures for 90 seconds it will self destruct.
Loc: Way forward when acting as a energy weapon recharge point or hidden from sight when acting as a powergrid enhancer for slightly more distanced defences. Do not put defences in a forward area.
Name: Defence Computer Building Points: 8
HP: 190
Use: Needed for the construction of teslas in Stage 3 and said to divide targets for the turrets when it becomes first available it’s only real use is the teslas. If you’re not building teslas don’t build a defence computer. It is prone to barbs just like the armoury and when it goes down the teslas no longer function. This is a common basebreaking event.
Loc: It should be well protected from barbs, marauders, and dragoons. Yes, quite a long list but teslas have their use so if you build it build it in the right spot and don’t give the aliens an easy opening.
Name: MG Turret Building Points: 8
HP: 190
Range: Medium Aim: Linear with spread
Use: Good ranged base defence for the humans. It’s weakness however is it inability to turn quickly enough to attack certain aliens like marauders or smart basilisks. They work best in groups. Never block entire entry paths with turrets. A single turret in the way isn’t bad but several will be a severe hindrance. Always remind yourself that turrets block each others line of fire when building. Also try to have the front of every turret covered by that of another defensive structure. All defences should at all times be backed up by humans.
Loc: In groups of about 3 per entrance for small entrance while spreading them out a bit if you are forced to have your base in the open. They should never block each others line of fire and are at their best if they do not need to turn to be able to target an incoming alien. Have 1 cover the interior of the base like telenodes against the marauder.
GOOD SETUP FOR A 3 TURRET DEFENCE
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Drietand/TremulousHumanBuildings/Nicespread.jpg)
Name: Tesla Generator Building Points: 10
HP: 220
Range: Medium/Short Aim: Spherical
Use: The tesla is a defence in it’s own right. It can fire through walls and does not have the delayed targeting of the Machinegun Turret. It has a slightly shorter range and a less total damage if the turret would hit all shots (neglible chance on that). The ratio turrets:teslas depends on the opposing teams tactics and your owns strength. All defences should at all times be backed up by humans.
Loc: It should not be placed in open spots but just around corners since it can shoot through them. Not much else to say about their location.
TESLA TURRET COMBINATION
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Drietand/TremulousHumanBuildings/Teslaturretcombo.jpg)
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It would be worth to mention that if reactor goes down, jetpacks stop working.
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Also, humans cannot easily reload energy weapons at the armory. They must either use the "buy ammo" button in range of a reactor/repetear, or they must use that building as they would use the armory.
BTW, game should allow humans to buy ammo for all weapons at the armory because they can do it by selling and then buying the current weapon. It is plain weird that you cannot use the "Buy ammunition" option for that.
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Especially when your reactor is placed 20m up and you can't reach it to recharge.
Remember to place reactors in safe locations, but in places where your team can actually use them to recharge.
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Good mention of the teslas. One thing that I hate as human, and love as alien, is when some noobs replace all the turrets with teslas. I always put teslas in a spot where targets could come from any direction, and ususally out of the way. There will always be a builder noob who decones all of the turrets for teslas. I can tell you how many games i have ended as an adv goon by sniping the DC.
Snipe, evolve to tyrant, kill all.
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Good work, same as with the aliens. Btw, will you use this to expand the official manual at http://tremulous.net/manual/ ?
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Also, humans cannot easily reload energy weapons at the armory. They must either use the "buy ammo" button in range of a reactor/repetear, or they must use that building as they would use the armory.
BTW, game should allow humans to buy ammo for all weapons at the armory because they can do it by selling and then buying the current weapon. It is plain weird that you cannot use the "Buy ammunition" option for that.
I said ammunition based weapons. The sell-buy recharge shouldn't be there and I've not included it because of that.
All other suggestions have been incorporated, note that building high isn't included for the reason that it just isn't that special. Marauders and dragoons can still easily reach it and if you let tyrants into your base your team is weak by default. You can do it but for real, I haven't met one high placed base that a reasonable alien team couldn't take on. All you usually do is give the aliens room to move below those spawns where humans need to get off.
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Also, humans cannot easily reload energy weapons at the armory. They must either use the "buy ammo" button in range of a reactor/repetear, or they must use that building as they would use the armory.
BTW, game should allow humans to buy ammo for all weapons at the armory because they can do it by selling and then buying the current weapon. It is plain weird that you cannot use the "Buy ammunition" option for that.
I said ammunition based weapons. The sell-buy recharge shouldn't be there and I've not included it because of that.
Fell free to find an implementation that isn't even more cumbersome that what is available now. Since it's impossible, I say we should fix that major annoyance and just allow energy based weapons to be recharged at the armory as they should.
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This topic isn't on the armoury energy refill bug stof. Energy weapons should be recharged at reactor or repeater, ammunition based weapons in the armoury. Energy based weapons should not be refillable at the armoury. Get over it or start a new topic, this one is about basebuilding not bugs.
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I'll try to avoid any further thread hijacking in the future. I should know better that that sorry :P
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This and the alien building guide really should be printed in the game's offical manual it contains a lot of info that could help a noob became "un-noobified"(In case you didn't notice made that word up) By far the best section was the Turrets blocking retreat I also liked how you wrote that The human base is nothing good shooters, that a poorly executed or planned reactor move will ensure the humans loss because in the worse case aliens can destroy absolutely everything or the can gain many essential level points in that single minute by simply surrending the human's spawn points and killing nearly helpless players and that (for the most part) humans do not benefit very little from an expanded base, although I would like to say that there are some exceptions to this rule of thumb.
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I think this is important for newbie builders:
1) IF YOU THINK SOME BUILDING (except turrets, teslas and defense computer) IS ON BAD PLACE AND MOVING IT A FEW METERS WOULD BE MUCH BETTER, DO NOT TOUCH THAT DAMN BUILDING!
Usually it's not just building placement that sucks, it's the entire base position. In that case, moving a single building a few meters away won't be any useful, you'll just make your fighting teammates confused and/or angry, especially by messing with the reactor.
2) WHEN MOVING THE BASE IN STAGE 2 OR 3, REMOVE AND REBUILD BUILDINGS IN THIS ORDER:
--- ARMED PLAYERS PROVIDE COVER IN THE NEW BASE!!!
A) REPEATER
B) NON-ESSENTIAL TURRETS
C) ARMORY AND MEDISTATION
D) DEFENSE COMPUTER
E) TELENODES
--- ARMED PLAYERS PROVIDE COVER IN THE OLD BASE!!!
F) ALL REMAINING TURRETS
G) REACTOR
NEVER EVER MOVE THE REACTOR FIRST!!!
When building in this order, you make sure that the new base will be defensible when you move important buildings and no important buildings will be left unprotected in the old base. Leaving the reactor behind is not a problem. It may seem that aliens have the ability to flip the switch to your base but it's not really true. They'll just do the inevitable and you'll have to defend without turret support for a while. It's not that hard if there are not 5 tyrants waiting outside your base.
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i have to say i REALLY HATE to read all-caps texts. Apart from that, you're probably right.
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nice post ghost
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anybody have any clever uses for the repeater? i have always thought it might be useful as a sheild in front of a group of turrets, or as a way to sit in an entrance and provide a little extra warning time for a tyrant rush. it seems like being free, there would be a lot of extra uses for the repeater. of course, it does have its limitations. AFAIK you can't build a repeater in a powered area. so you can't have a ring of repeaters around the reactor...
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anybody have any clever uses for the repeater? i have always thought it might be useful as a sheild in front of a group of turrets, or as a way to sit in an entrance and provide a little extra warning time for a tyrant rush. it seems like being free, there would be a lot of extra uses for the repeater. of course, it does have its limitations. AFAIK you can't build a repeater in a powered area. so you can't have a ring of repeaters around the reactor...
I've never seen those uses before but who knows :
- timed bomb
- door blocker
- ammo reload for energy weapons ( well, I admit I've seen it used sometimes :P )
- forward bases, like one repetear and one medistation. yeah I know, it's far too smart for pub servers :wink:
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I think it's important to note that turrets are not "defensive" structures unless they are protecting your base. A mile away does make them useful, and are in a ninja's favorite spot. Can't say how many time si've seen humans lose because they defended the room, not the base.
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Good point Tremma, a solid human base is ugly as hell, all cramped up and usually annoying to manouver in, but it is supposed to be ugly and cumbersome, making a great looking base, with 3 turrets defending each corridor leading to the base itself, is perfect marauder bait, the 3 turrets are easy to jump, and then the telenodes are free for the popping, this is especially common on nexus and tremor, tremor in particular, where bad builders love to build 3 turrets way out in the long hallway.
Teslas should be bunched up, prefferably 5 in one big clump, a human base on ATCS with 4 teslas upstairs blocking the back of the base, is practically tyrant proof, but in larger bases, where you need to cover 2 different directions, then a combination of teslas and turrets are by far best, since 2 teslas wont do enough damage in time to goons and tyrants, and if you need to cover 2 directions, then there are also 2 directions for sniping goons to hit the DC, making the teslas even more fragile and risky to deploy.
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- door blocker
Often tyrants enter with a door, cause havoc, then use other door to escape. Never is that satisfact than blocking the exit door with a repeater, so Tyrants triing to escape here die blocked.
I can't recomend this strategy because aliens get evo points killing human structures, so is a free evo. But can be a nice touch for psychological war against tyrants.
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I made a small slide show of the classic doomed tremor base, enjoy:
This is the backdoor entrance, those 3 turrets can peel maybe 50 health off a jumping marauder.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/shot0001.jpg)
And here is the front door, notice how all the turrets are placed outside the door, far away from the soon to be action.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/shot0003.jpg)
The back of the armory is a good place to attack from, nice and safe, a cunning marauder could even sit here and regen health in safety.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/shot0004.jpg)
And a nice open shot of the telenodes, reactor, armory and med pad, all spaced out nicely for easy acces.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/shot0005.jpg)
And finally, the only turret with any chance of actually defending anything .... you would have to be a pretty silly marauder to be hit by it though.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/shot0006.jpg)
Thats the kind of base I love to puncture with a marauder, and hate to defend as a human :roll:
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Though i'm not sure tremor has any Marauder-safe areas due to all the high ceilings.
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When I build such base, I always keep a turret to defend the top of the reactor and the armory. Also, if I'm playing as a dedicated builder, I stay around the base well armed to take care of an unruly marauder if it happens. And of course, the turrets aren't placed behind the door :)
I'm considering moving the reactor in the middle of the room too but marauders could still go to hide in the small corridor.
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If you note, the repeater has more HP than the defensive buildings. I've used a repeater in front of a tesla during SD, absorbing adv dragoon's attacks, since it takes 3 barbs to destroy, not two, and you can camp in front as a battlesuit to take the first barb. Even tyrants seemed to have a hard time killing that tesla :o
When building bases, always imagine the worst case scenario: a concerted maud/bask/tryant/adv dragoon attack. How will you stop wall walkers, fast jumpers, heavy hitters, and snipers? Some answers:
Put the defense computer in between the armory and the reactor. The armory acts as a wall, defending against fast snipes. A con dude in a battlesuir can even absorb some barbs, sparing the armory. Remember that you need a reactor to power the armory and def comp, and you need a defcomp to run teslas. Have the armory next to the reactor, so the reactor doesnt get mauled first. If you lose the armory, you still have the reactor. If you lose the reactor, the armory is useless. Remember the dependencies and plan accordingly!
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This is the backdoor entrance, those 3 turrets can peel maybe 50 health off a jumping marauder.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/shot0001.jpg
50hp? 30hp at most only if those turrets face the incoming marauder and he has to slow down. If they're turned away, they won't even shoot.
Put the defense computer in between the armory and the reactor. The armory acts as a wall, defending against fast snipes. A con dude in a battlesuir can even absorb some barbs, sparing the armory. Remember that you need a reactor to power the armory and def comp, and you need a defcomp to run teslas. Have the armory next to the reactor, so the reactor doesnt get mauled first. If you lose the armory, you still have the reactor. If you lose the reactor, the armory is useless. Remember the dependencies and plan accordingly!
That's another marauder-friendly setup. Armoury is taller than DC so if marauder gets on top of DC, you're dead. Neither turrets nor humans can shoot him and he can easily get your DC, armoury and reactor. You'd have to put tesla right in front of armoury to keep marauders away.
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On Tremor, I HATE it when someone moves the entire base into the tiny corridor. Sure it's a good spot to keep everything defensively placed but God almighty does it mean your team had better be good, because you're not covering either door any more and that's just bad news for having aliens in for lunch, dinner, supper and anything else besides.
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Tell me, why do I only see crappy bases in this thread?
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Tell me, why do I only see crappy bases in this thread?
Umm, because the sole purpose of this thread is to point out why and how crappy they are?
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Please tell me how wrong I am here:
(Human bases)
In a good base position, you have a low ceiling and only one or two smallish entrances.
The entraces get three or four turrets each (maybe replace a couple with telsa later), positioned in a V or a \_/ sort of placement, depending on size (turrets placed on the corners). This allows easier retreat for allies but still means approaching aliens get shot at along the way.
The rest of the base gets some turrets/telsas too (incase the perimiter is breached/jumped), they get spread out a little to cover maximal area (not just a little cluster to stop your own people moving from the telenodes).
This is all I can think of right now, I'll do a drawing and upload it later.
EDIT: My noobish quick designing and noobish quick drawing: http://one.xthost.info/duine/images/tremroomturrs.jpg
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/indy_MuadDib/tremroomturrsholes.jpg)
that north door is too tight, youll be hard pressed to get thru that in a hurry.
dont dreate a chokepoint if you can help it.
west door is still tight but not as bad.
center coverage is sparse at best.
im not sure of the exact figure or scale but im sure someone could post the exact range a turret has.
im reasonably sure its less than 5 meters
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Don't repeat things said in the first posts it only makes the thread unreadable. Also there is no perfect base since no game is the same.
Same way the above post uses 10! turrets, that's 80 points. Absurd.
A base is a support for the team which needs to be supported by the team.
And lava, show me a base which you think is good. I want to see what your standards are. Always good to learn.
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How do you turn on the display of the red hitboxes, as shown in your last picture? I'd love to do that myself to see where exactly they are, but I couldn't find any obvious looking commands.
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Command is something like cg_draxBBox but it is considered a cheating option.
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devmap to the wanted map and enter /cg_drawbbox 1 in the console.
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Thanks! I don't need it on when playing, just wanted to take a look once since on things like the OM, eggs, and telenodes, it doesn't match up with the graphic so well. I also didn't realize that the bouding box is always aligned on a fixed rectangular grid regardless of how the graphic is oriented until I tried it just now.
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Turret triangles work best when they actually defend each other (in each others range. The only trouble is it normally requires a jump to pass them. If you have teslas then they make a good turret defence.
It's not good to have too many turrets floating in the room doing nothing. It's also not good to have all your turrets at the perimeter for the aliens to play hurdle-jump with.
As an alien, I find it easiest to pick off lone/poorly defended turrets and when I see such a turret that's just what I'll do.
There should be a concentration of turrets at exit/entrance routes to bring the aliens health down so it won't attack. Turrets aren't there for killing so much as they're there for making defending easier, for slowing down the enemy, for discouraging the aliens from attacking.
When you talk about them being easy to snipe or not, bear in mind that it's better those barbs are hitting defences than anything else. Defences can be rebuilt.
A general rule for tremulous is "DON'T STAY STILL". Too many people get that 'safe' feeling and just sit there. That's where I normally shoot/slash/shout at them :P. So human defenders should stay on the move and support turrets... and attack regularly. camping is okay in short bursts. It's not okay to hide in the base for the whole game. If you do that, there's no chance you'll win. [Best defence = Good offence]
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I am actually wondering if this base will stand with a good defending team (means they can shoot from base and be able to choose targets.)
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4059/hb11qf9.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7842/hb12zm4.jpg
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6947/hb13st2.jpg
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9601/hb14va9.jpg
It is very snippable, but the armory can be rearranged to be closer to the containers. But, on the other hand, its perfectly safe from tyrants.
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Its tyrant proof, but its also human proof.
If you plan to camp then sure, but you will lose.
SD will come and it will get sniped.
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not really, the turrets are arranged so, that the humans need to do 1 jump to medi or 2 jumps to reactor. and these jumps are plain easy. Also, even without jump you will be covered by 2 turrets already. But yes, it is quite vulnerable for sniping... but is there a better place on transit? ^^..
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It's almost always preferable to leave adequate clearance for a human to run past the turrets without having to jump since human players are often out of stamina by the time they've ran back to the base.
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Not always, many don't even know you can sprint...
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The players who deserve to live are hindered by your shitty building. Let's just put it that way.
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Basically, that base looks cool, but you camp there and it will get sniped and mauled. You run out, and it will get destroyed when your gone, usually by a few choice +goon snipes, and than a Marauder or dragoon jump on the reactor or something.
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btw... how do you expect a tyrant-proof base, where you dont need to jump?... And goon pounce inside will be shot by the turrets on the water tanks. and on S3 by the teslas
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- door blocker
Often tyrants enter with a door, cause havoc, then use other door to escape. Never is that satisfact than blocking the exit door with a repeater, so Tyrants triing to escape here die blocked.
I can't recomend this strategy because aliens get evo points killing human structures, so is a free evo. But can be a nice touch for psychological war against tyrants.
Only node give free evo. Everything else is fine.
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Nodes give one, Reactors give 3.
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another experiment. Reac, node, defcomp, armory and tesla are not snippable COMPLETELY. Goon cannot jump that high, and cannot snipe from ground. He will have to jump and snipe, under fire, which will not allow to completely destroy one building.
2 Teslas defend the base from dretches and rest of annoying little mosqitoes. The defences are not oriented on trants or advgoons, they are just to keep top clear from basilisks/dretches. This is one of the "tyrant-advgoon" proof bases. For those, who does not have jetty, and accidentally jumped down (20 hp loss) there is another armory and medstat down there. They wont live long, but they can always be rebuilt. Not SD-oriented base.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3272/hb24xg0.jpg
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7585/hb23fw2.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1278/hb22vf8.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2218/hb21jh1.jpg
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That base goes down real quick.
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mmm how?
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Simple, everyone goes goon. It's hella hard to nail a goon down there while staying out of range of the rest of them and without hitting your own structures.
Oh, and you seem to have forgotten about the wallwalkers. A few basis and dretches'd tank you, along with goons and rants patrolling the ground and halls. Believe me, I've tried it.
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I have tried it myself. It is not possible to jump up as goon, only 1 place, which is a pipe near the tesla is accesible via pounce. Dretches and basis wont be able to take out a tesla, and hence they wont be able to get in. I think it is possible to replace the defcom with another turret, haveing 2 turrets, 1 reac, 1 armory and 1 node up there. not dretch or basi will be able to pass through, with little support from humans. And only adv goon can jump up there, and even he will have a hell a lot of trouble doing that.
and even though, it is obvious that there will be a swarm of jetpackers flying around...
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There's a few ways a skilled +goon can make it up there.
Well, whatever works for you.
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That and TJW's basi's can work wonders.
Also, Poison + Goon = jettards for dinner.
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Arachnid 2 human base... I had managed to build it when the reac went down in main, the tesla and turret are basicly to clean dretches and basilisks away, other than that the base is defensless and require support of a flamer/lucy jetpacker. 100% tyrant protected, goons can only jump up from the bottom, where jetpacker shoots them. Very hard to snipe from below. But this is a "last chance" base, not the main one.
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3981/hb31qt9.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3931/hb32kz3.jpg
You can actually replace defcomp with 2 turrets.
and build repeaters at red vent entrances to stop maras from coming in, basilisks will still fit.
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Troy, are you serious or just fooling around?
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I'd like to note this is NOT norf's baselocation thread. This thread got started because so many people were (and a lot still are) using structures in bad ways. Prebuilds for bases like people are showing in their screenshots don't belong in this thread but in norf's with a name to go alongside them. This is about individual structures and their pros and cons, usage and tricks.
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I am serious. This base managed to stand SD on SST server.
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I'd like to note this is NOT norf's baselocation thread. This thread got started because so many people were (and a lot still are) using structures in bad ways. Prebuilds for bases like people are showing in their screenshots don't belong in this thread but in norf's with a name to go alongside them. This is about individual structures and their pros and cons, usage and tricks.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't repeaters also grant an evo point to any alien who kills it? I recall getting those.
As such, repeaters should generally try to be hidden from view if you're building a fwd base (or even moving a base. The horrors of having your repeater get blown up and taking down an entire advance base is terrible and I've seen it firsthand *ouch*) and deconned again when the moved base is done.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't repeaters also grant an evo point to any alien who kills it? I recall getting those.
As such, repeaters should generally try to be hidden from view if you're building a fwd base (or even moving a base. The horrors of having your repeater get blown up and taking down an entire advance base is terrible and I've seen it firsthand *ouch*) and deconned again when the moved base is done.
you're wrong.
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Righto my mistake.
/waves hi to kevlar
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repeaters should still be hard to kill though...so you werent completely wrong
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Human bases should be concise, but not clustered. That leads to one tyrant kills. Trust me, the allure of that "Tight Entry Base" is good, but it leads to a tight base area and:
A. Bad maneuverability. If the humans line up, one poisoned dretch can kill five. Trust me.
B. Tyrant rush. Never good. "Yeah! We survived that rush!" "It was one rant" "INCOMING"
Trust me. It happens.
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B. Tyrant rush. Never good. "Yeah! We survived that rush!" "It was one rant" "INCOMING"
You forgot to put in what the first player says next:
"Oh Shit"
*n00b1 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b2 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b3 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b4 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b5 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
"REACTOR! NODES!!!"
Aliens Win
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Nah. He used harsher language! ;D ;D ;D
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(http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/743/shot0000ck6.th.jpg) (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0000ck6.jpg) (http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3347/shot0001uz0.th.jpg) (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0001uz0.jpg) (http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9721/shot0002ie7.th.jpg) (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0002ie7.jpg) (http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/3065/shot0003on8.th.jpg) (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0003on8.jpg) (http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6741/shot0004og9.th.jpg) (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0004og9.jpg)
Here's a human base on Karith, built in the corridor between the original location and the door to the courtyard. I've tried to make things hard to snipe (and if they have to snipe something let it be turrets), to spread the turrets around and cover all entrances and the space in between as well. Granted, it would need at least one dedicated builder and 2-3 defenders. Is it spectacularly stupid or does it have some merit?
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Here's a human base on Karith, built in the corridor between the original location and the door to the courtyard. I've tried to make things hard to snipe (and if they have to snipe something let it be turrets), to spread the turrets around and cover all entrances and the space in between as well. Granted, it would need at least one dedicated builder and 2-3 defenders. Is it spectacularly stupid or does it have some merit?
this one is fairly standard, though it's traditionally built a lot more cramped (a good thing) with 100 build points. it's a decent safe move, but the slow door room is a much better location without much more risk (it puts your team in a very good position to attack all 3 of the traditional alien bases, and as they say, "the best defense is a good offense").
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Can you place structures on top of each other? Such as a telenode on top of the armory? Technically it shouldn't be possible (what happens if you decon the bottom structure) and I seem to recall I tried placing a turret on top of the reactor once and it didn't work.
Yet this pic (http://www.mercenariesguild.net/images/75/shot0030s.jpg) seems to show a node on top of the armory.
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Those nodes are above the armory, on the edge of the boxes.
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Figures. A turret on the RC would've been too sweet... :)
As it is, probably a good idea for protecting the RC is to place it agains a wall, preferrably a corner, and under a ledge or something that doesn't let anything bigger than a dretch fit on top of it.
The jumping ability and maneuvrability of goons in the hands of a skilled player is uncanny. I used to think for instance that placing nodes on the two U ledges in the default room on Tremor was a good idea. Until I got to spectate a goon who entered through the long corridor, passed the turrets without a care in the world, and destroyed both nodes, all in a matter of seconds. Luckily, the humans had a third node tucked sideways near the reactor, otherwise it would've pretty much been game over.
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You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.
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You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.
actually in older game.qvms you can get the bbox to fall too under very specific circumstances.
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You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.
actually in older game.qvms you can get the bbox to fall too under very specific circumstances.
Oh yes, that too. Uncreation anyone?
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You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.
actually in older game.qvms you can get the bbox to fall too under very specific circumstances.
Oh yes, that too. Uncreation anyone?
iirc paper_cut figured out how to do it elsewhere.
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I saw something similar. On Tremor on the big platform in the human default room. Someone put medistation on the floor next to the platform and the armory up on the platform. Looked very much stacked. Using the medi was kinda difficult first time though, it only worked from up the platform at a certain angle. But it was quite untouchable otherwise.
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Untouchable against aliens who do not learn and who target the model over and over again, yes.
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Well yeah. It's the same with humans who fire at the big bulb of an alien egg instead of the root.
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I've noticed a paranoid trend: you start building DC, people start shouting "no teslas! no teslas!" Hold on to your horses, it doesn't automatically mean I'm gonna decon all rets and put teslas in. Maybe I want a couple of teslas, maybe I just want the DC to make rets better. Give the builder some credit.
Is it a recent trend or it's just the 1st time I've seen it?
Oh, and a bonus: make a list of things that are wrong with this base. :)
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4288/shot0030i.jpg)
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Snipeable armory, very weak front rets. Oh and waaaay too high r_gamma. Tho it seems the RC is safe?
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-aliens can jump behind armoury and be pretty safe to take out node + arm.
-turrets stacked (they do not shoot through other turrets)
-turrets too close to the ledge
-reactor (arguably) too far forwards and not covering the armoury(the whole idea for putting the reactor in front of it)
-node placement
-little room to improve base as teams stage up because of the initial placement of buildings(you have to move pretty much everything to make it work).
As for the "no teslas" remark that is to be encouraged since 99% of builders do not know how to use teslas properly or how to place a DC.
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Speaking of ATCS, there's a pretty classic layout: move RC back against far wall, arm sideways in front of it, two nodes against far wall (see above pic), three turrets right in front of nodes, three rets between ledge and arm, and medi near arm.
Now, how the rest of the points are used depends on the circumstances. If there are many players you may want a 3rd node.
I personally like to put a couple of rets near the ramp that leads to human base. It's a corner that can be used by aliens with impunity unless guarded. Turrets will help keep it clean. (Obviously, they can't do the job alone, they need human assistance.)
As for DC, a nifty trick is to place it near the ledge, at the wall at the right of the human base, to block rants from getting to the base. Again, it needs heavy support from human soldiers and at least one full-time builder. Con: will get pounded a lot. Pro: can be rebuilt even during SD; and like I said, serves as rant-stopper.
Do not be fooled. The block, by itself, is feeble at best. A rant will take out the DC with two swipes, which means a second, tops. Depending on the amount of onslaught that the aliens are bringing on, it may be a good tactic or not.
I've seen it work well in a 6 on 6 game, but aliens had spent their evo foolishly and had only one rant and one goon+, which humans managed to keep at bay. I've also seen it work in a crazy 12 on 12 (or perhaps more, it was too hectic to count) where aliens came with as much as 3-4 rants at once plus assorted other classes but couldn't win thanks to superb defence from humans, including this DC trick, turrets in the corner like mentioned above, and 2-3 builders repairing and reconstructing at all times.
I admit I haven't used teslas much. Usually there's all sorts of thing you can use your BP on by the time S3 comes (in a balanced game, I mean). So I can only speak from theory, not practice. It seems to be teslas are good around corners, kinda like alien tubes; you need to make the aliens get close and get hit. Plus I remember hearing they zap through the walls?
Teslas also seem good in combos with turrets: tesla keeps turret from being attacked up close, ret keeps aliens at bay from a distance. A careful combination of turrets and teslas can probably make a base tougher, but I have yet to witness the proper ratio or placement. Teslas behind rets, probably.
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The traditionally correct way to use teslas is to hide the dc in a way so it can't be easily sniped(varies from map to map) and then use a few teslas to stop aliens pouncing/jumping into your base. The ratio of teslas to turrets depends on the map and the server BP cap. The knock back effect of the tesla keeps aliens from being able to jump over your primary line to get at vulnerable structures or to "turn" the turrets so as to make it easier for a new wave of attackers to get in easy hits as the turrets turn back.
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DC isn't rebuildable during SD unless server is modded.
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I must've met it in too many places then and thought it was fairly standard.
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DC isn't rebuildable during SD unless server is modded.
I'm pretty sure it is.
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I seem to recall that nothing was rebuildable during SD with "standard" settings. Standard in this case being 1.1 servers. On the other hand most servers are modded these days.
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Could you tell your opinions about this human base on ATCS. ??? It is aimed to be quick to build if the aliens are very aggressive at start (couple of goons/maras at human base & all forward turrets killed) but still as effective as ipossible.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7948/shot0000y.th.jpg) (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0000y.jpg)
Can this turret shoot the RC hoppers down?
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7682/shot0002v.th.jpg) (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0002v.jpg)
I will try to do a decent base for Tremor next because the default base is one of the worst in the whole game.
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PureNoob, first of all you have too many boxed turrets. A boxed ret means a ret whose line of fire is blocked by something else: other structures, mostly other turrets.
The ideal placement for turrets varies for different locations and situations, but in this case you want to think of how the aliens come in the base, which is entirely from the ledge. They may jump the ledge or come up the ramp, doesn't matter. What matters is you have a box with 5 walls and aliens coming from where the 6th is missing. The box is low and wide. The best turret layout in such a case is a line of them, stringing left to right and hugging closely the structures behind them (well, not too close, see more below).
Yours are not in a line, they are scattered around. Sure, the 5 in front are ok, but you are completely wasting the other 2. The one on the left is pretty badly boxed between those two others and the armory. The one in the back is boxed by the RC. They will almost never get to fire.
Now, about RC hopping. To place rets that "see" the top of the RC you need to consider very carefully the lines of fire. Practice in devmap, place rets, then turn goon and see which ones can fire at you. In your setup, I'm afraid that only 1 (one!) ret sees the RC top, the one in the middle of the line of five. Maybe the one on the right of it, but it may be too far. Obviously, just one ret is not enough, a goon will have a few good seconds in which to chew your RC.
And I fear that a mara, being smaller, may evade even that ret altogether, if he pulls back in the corner. Because the default RC placement on ATCS is quite bad, allowing a very nasty blind spot at the top, which is why most people try to move it back all the way into the corner ASAP.
And to answer your question, the turret behind the RC is mostly useless. It does not see the top of the RC. You have to realize that no matter how the models look, all things in trem are actually rectangular boxes. The RC may look like it's smaller at the top, but in reality the bounding box is as wide as the bottom all the way to the top. Think of it like a big crate.
You need a fair amount of practice as builder (or just spectating and observing turrets) before you start to accurately assess where to place turrets so they can cover certain places. If you place them too far they don't fire, if they're too close they can't "see" past the edges of the "crates".
And you have to realize how truly frightening a skilled goon can be. If he walks on top of your turrets (which have trouble tracking over-head) and never stands still, he has about 5 seconds of roaming around. That's time enough to get both nodes and probably arm too, depending on skill and luck.
So what you want to do is make sure as many turrets as possible hit the goon in the only moment he's fully exposed, and that's the moment he comes in over the ledge, into the box. A side-to-side line of turrets will do that, will deal maximum damage in the split second he needs to come in.
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I disagree. The turret on the backside of the Reactor has saved bases on ATCS more than one time. The aliens hopping the Reac usually move around a little. And in those cases f.e when the try to avoid getting shot by turrets from the front, this turret outputs enough damage to get them down in time.
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I'll grant you that it's better than nothing, IF you've been unable to move the RC. But if you end up relying on that turret, then you're doing it wrong (as a team).
It's much better if you do move the RC all the way into the corner, then place the arm flat against it so it minimizes boxing, then set up three turrets in such a way that they (1) hit aliens hard the moment they get over the ledge and (2) they all see the top of the RC and can pound it continuously.
The "ideal" ATCS human base setups are all variations on the same layout and plenty of pics of it (and youtube videos) can be found. I think there was even an "atcs tutorial" on youtube or similar.
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Protip: If you want to test a bases effectiveness i.e test if it has weakspots/blindspots and how many rets can hit what places try building it in devmap and then jumping around the base with different size aliens with godmode on. It takes the guessing out of it. If every angle is covered by 3-4 turrets you have a nice base.
@ Urcscumug lines of turrets generally fail. Aliens will jump on top of them and run along it chomping. Alternatively it will just go melee at the corners so that only the turrets closest to the alien will attack it.
Personally I feel the best base is the one where aliens have a hard time finding which is the best way to attack it i.e. which is the weakspot that a single alien can exploit. This usually means my bases change over time so that what worked last round will not work this time. What is an awesome base the first time your opponents sees it may not be awesome the second time. Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack.
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@ Urcscumug lines of turrets generally fail. Aliens will jump on top of them and run along it chomping.
Not "aliens", goons. They're the only ones that can do this. Smaller aliens get pounded too bad if you have 3-4+ turrets firing at once. And rants can't jump the turret line.*
* Actually they can, in certain situations. For instance, on Nexus a rant can charge up the stairs to the human base and jump at the top and it will land beyond the rets.
Alternatively it will just go melee at the corners so that only the turrets closest to the alien will attack it.
Or chew on the line until gaps are opened, which allow rants to pass-through. But:
* On ATCS, in the default base location, if you span the line of rets wall to wall there's no "corner" to attack.
* If you're pushed back in base and forced to defend against a smart AS3 team, you're pretty much screwed anyway. If they attack well the best you can hope for is a draw (assuming you're also S3 and depending on SD and TL).
* Curved lines (semicircles) are better in some circumstances. But they're also lines. :)
Against that specific goon attack (walking on top of rets) the best layout is scattering the rets around the place, both in the horizontal plane as well as at various heights. That's a great tactic, but you can't do it on ATCS. You need supports where to place the rets. The base on Tremor is a good example. But on the other hand such a base is weak against rants burrowing through the rets to reach other structures.
Personally I feel the best base is the one where aliens have a hard time finding which is the best way to attack it i.e. which is the weakspot that a single alien can exploit.
You seem to assume the best way to attack is with a single alien? What's wrong with aliens working together? In fact, they often fail if they don't.
This usually means my bases change over time so that what worked last round will not work this time.
From game to game, you mean? Unfortunately, the options are limited. Given a certain map, especially as small as ATCS, you only have few places where to make a good base. On ATCS the default location is pretty much it. Arguably, you can use the bunker and the tunnel, but that's a long way to move, which is something humans can't risk.
What is an awesome base the first time your opponents sees it may not be awesome the second time.
There are standard alien tactics and the answers to them are pretty much the same. Not to discount new ideas and originality, God forbid, but, especially on small maps, the options are limited, I repeat. Meaning that you don't have a lot of creative liberty as a human builder, and if you assume it you're base gets screwed very fast.
Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack.
Why are "teamwork" and "coordinated attack" on opposite sides in this sentence?
PS: Speaking of goons, I've noticed something peculiar about advgoons. They rely too much on their barbs and sniping and end up doing nothing else. I find it ridiculous, during an alien attack on ATCS, to see the regular goons jumping all over the place and attacking with everything they've got, while the advgoons, which are more powerful and have more HP, sit confortably around a corner, put out their head for a couple of snipes then run right back. Not sure what that's about. If that's how they're gonna use advgoon we might as well give the barbs to the advgranger.
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Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack.
Why are "teamwork" and "coordinated attack" on opposite sides in this sentence?
PS: Speaking of goons, I've noticed something peculiar about advgoons. They rely too much on their barbs and sniping and end up doing nothing else. I find it ridiculous, during an alien attack on ATCS, to see the regular goons jumping all over the place and attacking with everything they've got, while the advgoons, which are more powerful and have more HP, sit confortably around a corner, put out their head for a couple of snipes then run right back. Not sure what that's about. If that's how they're gonna use advgoon we might as well give the barbs to the advgranger.
That seems to be one of those lines that sound so much better in your own head :> Granted it did not come out very clear. "Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill"= I don’t want my bases being ninja killed by single skilled aliens "even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack." = If that means it can't stand a coordinated attack that is fine. Can we agree that lone skilled players are a more common threat in public games than teams that work together? An example of a base that I would think is strong vs ninjas and weaker vs coordinated attacks might include several medistations placed beside each other so that the healing stacks(I would rather have a base that keeps players fighting than one that does their fighting) and *gasp* a tesla or two to prevent jumpers (assuming you can hide the dc well).
The stuff you said about advanced goons is true enough. I think it has to do with the fact that normal goons cost less, are smaller / less critical targets for enemy fire and also fit more places than adv goons.
About the lines I simply assumed you meant straight ones... If you did not that's fine... my bad. Lets not argue about semantics.
Personally I feel the best base is the one where aliens have a hard time finding which is the best way to attack it i.e. which is the weakspot that a single alien can exploit.
You seem to assume the best way to attack is with a single alien? What's wrong with aliens working together? In fact, they often fail if they don't.
Did I say that? No. I was implying that I like bases that are hard to work out and beat alone. There is nothing wrong with aliens working together but it is rare in public games. In clanwars if you do not take precautions for coordinated ninja attacks you’re doomed to fail anyway.
This usually means my bases change over time so that what worked last round will not work this time.
From game to game, you mean? Unfortunately, the options are limited. Given a certain map, especially as small as ATCS, you only have few places where to make a good base. On ATCS the default location is pretty much it. Arguably, you can use the bunker and the tunnel, but that's a long way to move, which is something humans can't risk.
What is an awesome base the first time your opponents sees it may not be awesome the second time.
There are standard alien tactics and the answers to them are pretty much the same. Not to discount new ideas and originality, God forbid, but, especially on small maps, the options are limited, I repeat. Meaning that you don't have a lot of creative liberty as a human builder, and if you assume it you're base gets screwed very fast.
Varying from game to game as well as over the course of a round. Sure the base I would build in a clanwar would look different from the one in a public game. My building philosophy requires the team to be able to defeat the opposing team without its help. It's main requirements are to be standing even if a few opponents attack it at once and to rearm and resupply the team.
On a side note....Does anyone play clanwars on atcs? That map is the most boring overplayed map in tremulous :P
**Edit: Sent it off instead of doing a preview :>
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most of the american scene clans play cws on atcs. more or less the only clan that tries to get off atcs is ><.
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Once again, quiz time. What's wrong with this base:
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1753/shot0182u.th.jpg) (http://img512.imageshack.us/i/shot0182u.jpg/) (http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6672/shot0181.th.jpg) (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/shot0181.jpg/)
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Obvious: it's in the bunker....
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Well ok but elaborate a bit if you want full marks. :P
LE: Ok. Ok. I think the silence speaks for itself. It's in the bunker. Which is wrong because there's only one way out of it. So you can't get anywhere without running into all the aliens camping at the entrance, so the best humans can make of it is a horrible siege. Basically, it's about crawling into a whole to die.
Other than that, it's a decent human base. You get 8 turrets split in two rows, all firing at once, and the narrow space means only one rant can attack at once. The 90 degrees angles of the walls make it difficult for goons to get in fast enough. Sure, advgoons can snipe from the other room across the entrance hall, but not if humans camp on the 4 out front with luci and pulse. And anything smaller will die very very fast. Although I'm not very sure about mara, since it can take corners like no other alien can. I suppose the RC is hoppable and once you're up there you get "only" 4 rets firing at you, which takes some of the load off the entrance.
Seriously, if you played aliens and had to take a crack at this base how would you go about it? I don't think AS1 could manage it, but maybe I'm wrong. What about AS2 or 3?
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Aliens will always go for the closest turrets, the first 3 (2 on left, 1 on right) can be killed quite easily since the further rets don't cover them. Also a mara/goon can get the armory if it gets to the corner.
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I've been testing this base. You can't focus on any single turret, nor on the RC/arm without having at least 3 turrets firing at you.
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snipe the two turrets on the side, send in your rant and smash up the rets, let the rant suicide and send in an agoon to finish it off. 2 alien victory.
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snipe the two turrets on the side, send in your rant and smash up the rets, let the rant suicide and send in an agoon to finish it off. 2 alien victory.
Brute force. I like it!
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As much as I despise moving to the bunker, that base works, and works well. This is not particuarly due to the structure of the base itself (It has somewhat serious sniping problems and the aliens can build the humans in) but due to the fact that once the aliens buildings above the entrance are removed, jetpacks can defend the entrance very effectively. Aliens generally don't get to see that base much after the jetpacks get in the air.
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Might I point out that there is no clear path to the medi without jumping?
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Humans to benifit from advanced bases. Running all the way back to your own base for ammo and health is just plain stupid.