Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: jr2 on November 25, 2007, 01:12:45 pm
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:battlesuit: I think the Radar should be a 200-credit add-on for the BSuit, and the stamina for all BattleSuits should be increased. I mean, c'mon, they're powered, obviously, and we've seen stuff like this in magazines that deal with possible future tech.
EDIT: See here (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=109_1195663753) for modern BSuit prototype WIP.
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trem is not about future tech magazines, it'a about BALANCE
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Sheesh, if we wanted realism, we wouldn't be playing this game.
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Could moderators delete all the noob sugestions straight awey so people would not waist their time reading them???
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The bsuit would need an extra pair of AA batteries for added stamina.
And you know how expensive those things are in the future!
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trem is not about future tech magazines, it'a about BALANCE
Cools. I assume we can ditch the Adv rant then? Heck, the rant itself, with 400 HP, rush ability, healing aura, and a slash capable of single-click killing a BSuit when done properly (I've seen it myself)... and you want to squeak about balance?!? The Advanced "sniper" goon, capable of taking out your reactor with 4 or 5 shots, so, get 3 or 4 of them, and your reac is gone in about 10 seconds, along with most of your base, because they go on a trample spree after the RC is gone? The normal "poon" goon, that has the ability to mow down 5 humans in twice as many seconds if used properly, then jump to safety? The Adv Marauder, capable of hitting three targets at once, as well as being nearly impossible to hit while walljumping, which the normal mara has as well? The Advanced Basilisk, which, along with the regular 'Lisk ability of grabbing its prey and holding it there until it is killed and wallwalking, can spray poison gases all over the place? The dretch, which in the proper hands is nearly impossible to hit, and can take down a pair of turrets without dying, and a naked human in one shot? (by bouncing off of a headshot back into its prey to strike again). All of these have built-in radar, too! Almost the only thing the humans have to counter this is the Lucifer Cannon, and the range of their weapons. And, of course, you get aliens squealing about not allowing "Luci-spamming", to which I usually reply asking them if they want to de-claw their rants while they're at it.
So, yeah... I'm all for balance. Which brings me back to this poll I started.... :P
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So you are all for balance?
aha...
Just because you lack the skill does not make your proposal realistic nor your argumentation valid.
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Ooh! Let me do this one!
Cools. I assume we can ditch the Adv rant then?
As this is not a tremulous class but a TremX one, you can ditch it all you like for all I care.
Heck, the rant itself, with 400 HP, rush ability, healing aura, and a slash capable of single-click killing a BSuit when done properly (I've seen it myself)...
Don't think the humans BSuit is weaker just because it has 100 HP. I don't know the exact figure but I'd estimate that each point is about 4 times as strong as the tyrant's. Throw a chaingun into the equation and you have a potential tyrant shredding machine.
As for your one-hit-wonder comment, unless this a weak BS or you're just not seeing all the slashes what you're suggesting is just not true.
The Advanced "sniper" goon, capable of taking out your reactor with 4 or 5 shots, so, get 3 or 4 of them, and your reac is gone in about 10 seconds, along with most of your base, because they go on a trample spree after the RC is gone?
As the only ranged attack of the aliens which is worth mentioning, the goons ability to snipe is not something I'd criticize. There are sadly few players out there who can deliver those barbs without getting slaughtered. The sniper goons of most games are easy targets for money hungry campers. As for the trample spree, this can be done by the humans as well (when they aren't too busy roasting marshmallows).
Anyhow, the humans have prifles and lucis which do a far better job of base mashing.
The normal "poon" goon, that has the ability to mow down 5 humans in twice as many seconds if used properly, then jump to safety?
Yes goons are very powerful at the start of the game. Yet the also make clumsy, blocking, big targets for even your average S2 human (particularly those with shotties and some dodging skill).
The Adv Marauder, capable of hitting three targets at once, as well as being nearly impossible to hit while walljumping, which the normal mara has as well?
Great for evading and retreating, these critters are only good when the player can aim with them (something many can't be bothered to learn). They aren't very good at smashing defended bases either (though the awareness of the defenders is a huge factor).
The Advanced Basilisk, which, along with the regular 'Lisk ability of grabbing its prey and holding it there until it is killed and wallwalking, can spray poison gases all over the place?
Thanks for explaining what the basi does. Now you can mention it's vulnerability due to it's low health compared to it's size and the fact that it has to stay still to do major damage most of the time. Put two humans in the general area and both of them are fairly safe from it in most cases (the gas is nothing much to speak of- it can help but plays only a secondary role).
The dretch, which in the proper hands is nearly impossible to hit, and can take down a pair of turrets without dying, and a naked human in one shot?
Then put a naked rifle man in the proper hands and watch him tear through a whole swarm of the little blighters.
All of these have built-in radar, too!
A good thing too, or your average alien would be even less able to spot the most obvious of human targets.
Ignoring realism (which I don't see as a priority), I don't think the BS should have such upgrades. I like how you can currently choose between such upgrades or the added strength of a BS. I don't want the change to S3 to mean all previous upgrades becoming redundant for those who have the creds to afford the all-in-one package.
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Nux said all that have to be said. No point in tweaking s3 stuff, as it is totally balanced.
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If you really want it you could just make a simple mod that allows purchase of helmet and BS at same time.
In the bg_misc.c
{
UP_BATTLESUIT, //int upgradeNum;
BSUIT_PRICE, //int price;
(1 << S3 ), //int stages
SLOT_NONE, //int slots;
"bsuit", //char *upgradeName;
"Battlesuit", //char *upgradeHumanName;
"icons/iconu_bsuit",
qtrue, //qboolean purchasable
qfalse, //qboolean usable
WUT_HUMANS //WUTeam_t team;
},
Thatll allow jet pack as well
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Ooh! Let me do this one!
Cools. I assume we can ditch the Adv rant then?
As this is not a tremulous class but a TremX one, you can ditch it all you like for all I care.
ok, point taken
Heck, the rant itself, with 400 HP, rush ability, healing aura, and a slash capable of single-click killing a BSuit when done properly (I've seen it myself)...
Don't think the humans BSuit is weaker just because it has 100 HP. I don't know the exact figure but I'd estimate that each point is about 4 times as strong as the tyrant's. Throw a chaingun into the equation and you have a potential tyrant shredding machine.
As for your one-hit-wonder comment, unless this a weak BS or you're just not seeing all the slashes what you're suggesting is just not true.
Not a weak bsuit... full health. Unless hax were being employed, IDK what was up with that. But I did see it. It was on a server with like 5 players, they were just goofing off, and the alien said for this other guy to get a bsuit and stand over in a corner, 'cause he could kill him with one slash. Worked, too. :/
The Advanced "sniper" goon, capable of taking out your reactor with 4 or 5 shots, so, get 3 or 4 of them, and your reac is gone in about 10 seconds, along with most of your base, because they go on a trample spree after the RC is gone?
As the only ranged attack of the aliens which is worth mentioning, the goons ability to snipe is not something I'd criticize. There are sadly few players out there who can deliver those barbs without getting slaughtered. The sniper goons of most games are easy targets for money hungry campers. As for the trample spree, this can be done by the humans as well (when they aren't too busy roasting marshmallows).
Anyhow, the humans have prifles and lucis which do a far better job of base mashing.
not criticizing the only ranged attack... but what you're saying about there being few players capable of delivering those shots...?? When's the last time you played? Last year? My brother just started, and he can do that. The only defense is a few MDriver guys camping the base (to the continuous alien whine of "Come out CaMpErS!!")
The normal "poon" goon, that has the ability to mow down 5 humans in twice as many seconds if used properly, then jump to safety?
Yes goons are very powerful at the start of the game. Yet the also make clumsy, blocking, big targets for even your average S2 human (particularly those with shotties and some dodging skill).
Hmm. Not if the goon has any skill at all. Google up perfect pounce (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjNf05AeHtY) in YouTube.
The Adv Marauder, capable of hitting three targets at once, as well as being nearly impossible to hit while walljumping, which the normal mara has as well?
Great for evading and retreating, these critters are only good when the player can aim with them (something many can't be bothered to learn). They aren't very good at smashing defended bases either (though the awareness of the defenders is a huge factor).
Single-handedly taking down 1 or 2 defenders, then taking the RC out is what I'd call good.
The Advanced Basilisk, which, along with the regular 'Lisk ability of grabbing its prey and holding it there until it is killed and wallwalking, can spray poison gases all over the place?
Thanks for explaining what the basi does. Now you can mention it's vulnerability due to it's low health compared to it's size and the fact that it has to stay still to do major damage most of the time. Put two humans in the general area and both of them are fairly safe from it in most cases (the gas is nothing much to speak of- it can help but plays only a secondary role).
The basi isn't overpowerful, just when in combination with everything else... same for the other classes. I'm not suggesting we neuter the aliens, simply give the humans less of a disadvantage.
The dretch, which in the proper hands is nearly impossible to hit, and can take down a pair of turrets without dying, and a naked human in one shot?
Then put a naked rifle man in the proper hands and watch him tear through a whole swarm of the little blighters.
Ah, yes... there is the option of using aim-bots, but I for one find them in poor taste. Where's the sportsmanship in using bots?
All of these have built-in radar, too!
A good thing too, or your average alien would be even less able to spot the most obvious of human targets.
O.o What about my seeing them?!?
Ignoring realism (which I don't see as a priority), I don't think the BS should have such upgrades. I like how you can currently choose between such upgrades or the added strength of a BS. I don't want the change to S3 to mean all previous upgrades becoming redundant for those who have the creds to afford the all-in-one package. Sacrificing the battery pack and jet pack isn't enough?
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Not a weak bsuit... full health. Unless hax were being employed, IDK what was up with that. But I did see it. It was on a server with like 5 players, they were just goofing off, and the alien said for this other guy to get a bsuit and stand over in a corner, 'cause he could kill him with one slash. Worked, too. :/If you weren't the BSuit then how can you be so sure he wasn't weak? As for Hax, AFAIK there are no other cheats being circulated other than aimbot+wallhack and possibly warp-hax. AFAIK (and I'm pretty sure about this) all the other hacks people accuse other people of just don't exist in tremulous (Health hax, damage hax, speed hax, etc.).
not criticizing the only ranged attack... but what you're saying about there being few players capable of delivering those shots...?? When's the last time you played? Last year? My brother just started, and he can do that. The only defense is a few MDriver guys camping the base (to the continuous alien whine of "Come out CaMpErS!!")
I didn't say you couldn't deliver the shots. I said that in your average game, Adv. Goons make good targets for camping humans. They're about as big as a tyrant with about half the hp and are easily blocked when trying to flee.
Hmm. Not if the goon has any skill at all. Google up perfect pounce in YouTube.Skill makes all the difference. For the sake of fairness, I was refering to your average player and not people like you and me. ;)
Single-handedly taking down 1 or 2 defenders, then taking the RC out is what I'd call good.
Yet again, I'm talking about average players. Those are, after all, the majority.
The basi isn't overpowerful, just when in combination with everything else... same for the other classes. I'm not suggesting we neuter the aliens, simply give the humans less of a disadvantage.
Fair enough.
Ah, yes... there is the option of using aim-bots, but I for one find them in poor taste. Where's the sportsmanship in using bots?
If you think you need an aimbot to do this you should watch me or some of my friends in a game. ^^
O.o What about my seeing them?!?
What about it? :P
Sacrificing the battery pack and jet pack isn't enough?
The battery pack is more useful than the jetpack and still nowhere near as useful as radar... in my opinion >.>
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Search the forums. These arguments have been going on ad nauseum. Do what few others have done, instead of making some kind of speculative arguments, make a mod, run a server and crunch the numbers to determine if it actually is balanced.
Get some friends together or ask in irc for players and go play on TJW's server or the }MG{Development server (which also implements TJW/Norf's changes). You will find that some of the game mechanics have changed. Like the basi regens faster and has a healing aura instead of the tyrant, turrets are more dangerous but have a spinup time...
Not trying to be rude here, but there are exceedingly few people that would be listened to concerning changes to game mechanics, and I'll tell you that those people are neither you nor I. Personally, I would be much, much more likely to listen to someone who played pre-standalone and who has seen the game mechanics change to improve balance. Of course, anyone with hard numbers will be difficult to dispute, hence my "make the changes and run a server" crack ;)
I have to say though, that someone who played on TJW's or any server with the newer changes would be more likely to be listened to if they had singular, testable modification suggestions instead of these "lets make massive changes cause I think it would be more balanced!" :D
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It doesnt seem balanced. It looks like more skill is required for the human side than the alien side, in my opinion. It seems that the advantage goes to aliens most of the time. Even when I play someone who is better than me at humans cant match to the everconsuming power of a goon. I even see noobs capable of taking down average players. Although it wasn't intended the skill level is thought to be at different standards than expected, otherwise, the win/lose ratio would nearly be equal. But is SD, aliens win nearly 90% of time, especially if teams are even.
I think it takes a hell lot more skill to aim with rifle than to move around with a dretch, and definitley it takes hell more skill to kill with a mara
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I agree. The chance that aliens win is higher than the chance that they lose. But on the other hand, humans heavily rely on cooperation, if you just have a bunch of "terminators" running around alone like mad just to score kills, forgetting that they expose the base etc. etc., it is no wonder that aliens win.
The only real thing is that dragoons and tyrants are too strong. Even with a bunch of skilled players, you don't stand a chance against one single tyrant even if controled by an average - or maybe not even that! - player! So one or two tyrants can take down an entire human base "for breakfast" with a dozen even skilled humans standing no chance against them. Usually, the moment tyrants arrive, the game is lost at a 2/3 rate for the humans I think.
Something has to be done about that.
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The issue here is the fact that aliens will always dominate the map and the humans don't usually have the tactical ability to push forward as a group and stay alive. This is why in high skill clan wars the balance is usually shifted in the human's favour.
Without teamwork, aliens will usually do better.
With teamwork, humans can be unstoppable.
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Could moderators delete all the noob sugestions straight awey so people would not waist their time reading them???
Why hasn't this been deleted?
//I kid.
//I kid quite a bit late, as well.
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I think the problem is the alien team returns a whole lot more for increasing levels of skill in the player, as well as giving the complete newb a hefty edge... although a complete newb won't stand a chance against a 1337 (see definition below) group of humans. If you pit 1337 humans vs 1337 aliens, IDK... humans would most likely win up till S3 if they camped, then it would be aliens all the way (because of the tyrant)
The dretch is hard to hit in the first place. 1337 player = lethal weapon. The Basi is a bit easier, but in the right hands, when used in a firefight, it wreaks havoc. The Mara in the right hands can bypass base defenses and take out the RC in a couple of runs if the defenders are otherwise occupied (say by those nasty goons). The average / above average Goons can easily breeze through 10 straight kills unless the hummy players have above average amounts of skill. Rants don't need explanation.. other than its interesting that they use the tactics that should be used by lower classes of aliens to make base attacks, thus assuring they never die unless something upsets their rhythm.
The Rifle is a powerful weapon for 1337 players... IDK how they do it, but almost every shot seems to hit, no matter what. @ HP/shot, that's lethal. The shotty is, of course, devastating, and 1337 players seem to be able to do dodge attacks pre-emptively (whereas I find that even though my dodge, according to my screen, should have saved my hide, it doesn't... in case you're wondering, I do it all the time in Halo to avoid 'Hogs, but in Trem, the aliens must have uber-oversized slash / chomp ranges.. which would be fine if their animation or w/e showed on-screen their damage range) Mass Driver is a good sniper weapon, but 1337 players use it like a single-shot Rifle, never missing. Pulse Rifle is well-balanced, but somehow some players seem to be able to shoot anything that moves with it, which is normally impossible because of its slow pulse travel rate... it's just weird being shot out of the air with a PR as a dretch. Chainguns are offset by their inaccuracy, but somehow some players can nail anyone within seconds... IDK how, I've only been able to do this a few times by accident. (With chainsuit, ofc, everyone knows that normal soldiers have to crouch to control the kickback.) Flamers are flamers, they seem pretty fair. Lucys can be like the pulse rifle... some players can land their shot whereever you are going to be by the time the shot arrives, even though you're doing your best to have a random attack pattern. :sigh: IDK
Of course, any group that has a chain of command and / or good communication (TeamSpeak or similar) set up is going to have a huge advantage.
Definition of 1337 as I use it here: by this I mean you can't tell they aren't using an aimbot unless you spec them, they can chaingun an average tyrant player to death 1 vs 1, they can mass driver a dretch doing random jumps off of a wall mid-jump, and a mara doesn't stand a chance against them (unless it's another 1337 player controlling the mara), and with a lucy / flamer / chaingun and a couple of buddies they are absolutely unstoppable. As a goon, they are nearly unstoppable, as a rant, they are (they slash almost before you come into their field of view, killing you... they always seem to hit you where it hurts, taking all but the BSuit down with one slash - BSuits take two or three, IIRC).
If none of this makes sense, well, I'm still trying to figure it out myself.
But I know that average aliens vs average humans = aliens win hands-down. Newbs vs Newbs, not sure, depends on teamwork, I think. 1337 vs 1337... like I said, depends on the stage.
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Newbs vs Newbs, not sure, depends on teamwork, I think.
When talking about Newbs vs Newbs, you can't hope for teamwork beyond a happy accident. I'd say that aliens have the clear advantage when neither team has teamwork. So this is an alien win.
1337 vs 1337... like I said, depends on the stage.
Depends on stage? You seem to be forgetting what gives them those stages in the first place. What stage they manage to reach and when depends entirely on how well the teams are doing. This is why it's important to talk about overall wins. In this case my money is on the humans as it's my belief that humans are more potent with teamwork than aliens are with the same teamwork.
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Hehe.... ever been Dretch Stormed before? How about with 2 Adv Maras thrown in? 4 or 5 dretches + 2 Adv Maras in the ATCS hallway. Let's add poison, just to be fun. XD It also depends on the surroundings, I guess.
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Hehe.... ever been Dretch Stormed before? How about with 2 Adv Maras thrown in? 4 or 5 dretches + 2 Adv Maras in the ATCS hallway. Let's add poison, just to be fun. XD It also depends on the surroundings, I guess.
And pit those against a group of (assuming s2 since aliens are) 4-7 humans with shotguns, lasguns, maybe a mass driver or flamer and see what happens.
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most of your comparisons seem to be between above average aliens and the average human, of course the alien should win
as for your 1337 chainsuit taking on a rant 1v1, im average and i can do that about half the time (on a trackpad i might add), all you have to do is shoot /at/ the rant and be quick enough to jump back/sideways at the right time to avoid rant charge/swipe (btw: i do think the rant swipe range is just a bit large, just a little)
even a human team full of noobs can win against an average alien team if they use /teamwork/
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Well... is it just me or do the better than average players always go alien? It's easier to rack up kills that way, even if there are a few good human players... just find the below avg or avg players and slaughter them. XD