Tremulous Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: zybork on December 16, 2007, 04:08:55 pm

Title: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: zybork on December 16, 2007, 04:08:55 pm
I think it already occured to most of you: Sometimes, I have really good games, lasting for "about an hour", where I have the impression, that all the players enjoy the game - WHICH IS THE F... ONLY REASON WHY ANYONE SHOULD PLAY IT, BLOODY HELL! - and that all is fine, altough there are players of very different skills, however, all is fine, and I really endulge myself, which can be wonderful after a hard day's work (especially before Christmas, when all the customers go mad, btw.)

Then, I play matches that really ssssuck. You've got some elite players, some unskilled players, some noobs and newbies, but nothing is right, it is all a mess, the game lasts for about "five seconds", no matter if (as usual) aliens win, or if humans do.

And one time, I started to realize why.

It's definetely not the skills. Really! Because in both cases you've got teams of mixed skills et cetera et cetera, so what is it? Two words: Cooperation and balance. And, as a third (did anybody expect the Spanish Inquisition ;) ), IQs that do not go below 60... end of rant. It is because players have a minimum of respect for the others (including the opponent team) and are not too dumb to count 1+1 together. But I am babbling, let's summarize:

In a good (human) team, people have realized, that you are nothing agains a dragoon if alone, that it is a good idea not to waste money for the even bigger gun. People tell you what they are planning to do giving you the chance to cooperate with them. And if they realize, that one team is way too good, they switch, making the game balanced again, just to give everybody despite his skill the chance for a long, joyful game. In the end, the skilled can say, "Bad day, I only killed 34 609 noobs this game" and the unskilled are happy because they got enough money to get a luci-gun for the first time in their life, and even survived long enough to try it out. Everybody's happy. Perfect.

Now, to the b-a-d team: People are running around like frightened chickens. Got 500 credits? Go buy the biggest gun! Well, they get killed instantly because without a helmet, they don't see those dretches that have been walking right behind them for a minute, but hey, the got BIG guns... ::) No joke, I have watched those people. And if someones a far better player than others, why should people care? Why should those players try to get to both teams, if they are in a slaughter-raid? It is about yourself having fun, who cares about anybody else in the game? Also, people always go alone. Just always. Because it is about YOU making money, who cares about that this is team game? Okay, you may have been feeding the aliens for 12 times, but now you have a few bucks to get this really biggg gun.. The base needs no protection because it surely has those turrets and can defend itself, so a builder is not necessary as well.

Über-nerds of this world, I have bad news for you: You mave have fast reaction times or slow reaction times, you may have learned all the maps by heart or have no idea of them, it all doesn't matter as long as you are lacking one thing, that is essential to any team game: social skills.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: daenyth on December 16, 2007, 07:13:10 pm
+1
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Nux on December 16, 2007, 08:05:26 pm
The public server is a crucible full of hot and cold parts. In other words public servers are raging, moody places which makes them great places for beginners who are getting to grips with the game.

The few players who rise above the rest can find each other and stick together. They can just float on top of the boil or they can have some real fun facing each other. That where private servers come in.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Death On Ice on December 16, 2007, 08:33:35 pm
Several public servers admins support aimbotters, either out of curiosity, or some other reason. Without naming any names, I would like to say that the Tremulous experience is only fun when admins do their job.

Hey - Lot's of repliers telling me to play somewhere else: Usually I'm playing at the Else.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: X-20 on December 16, 2007, 10:05:23 pm
Common sense... new concept for alot of people.. anyway i support this, Id give you a +1 also but i cant give karma yet  :laugh:
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: The MC Horton Crankfire on December 17, 2007, 03:06:57 am
+1, sticky this.

Another problem: when the enemy team gets deconned, and you know they've been deconned, that should be enough information for you to know that you should stop attacking them until they have time to recooperate. But with many players (even most? I certainly hope not, but I dunno...), not only does this knowledge not stop them from getting cheap kills, but they still don't stop after people are flooding the chat with messages telling them to. Why is it common practice to do this, and why aren't admins as rigorous with these players as they are with the deconners themselves?
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: meren on December 17, 2007, 05:38:29 am
zybork, that idiot stereotype you're talking about is the only reason why I decided to join a clan. Because in a clan you can play decent games with decent people around you.

It is so likely to see at least one of these in a public game:

- killwhores: don't care either about base nor team play. also winning or losing is not important, the only important thing is that their names should be at the top of either of two columns on the last screen of the game. spec one of them and see how they eagerly chase a dretch to kill instead of trying to help other people to kill a goon. or a tyrant killing s1 human in the hall instead of letting dretches try to eat him.

- deconners: some sick guy switches his damn team and deconnes RC/Overmind and disconnects.

- spammers/campers: stays in the base and constantly spams corners, doors, etc. this thing is not respectful to other teams players at all.


yeah, public games are frustrating. scrims are better for a decent tremulous experience; of course if both teams have good players (because otherwise other team camps till the last damn minute).
Title: Re: Why some ppl can't just play nice
Post by: player1 on December 18, 2007, 12:14:23 am
Another problem: when the enemy team gets deconned, and you know they've been deconned, that should be enough information for you to know that you should stop attacking them until they have time to recooperate. But with many players (even most? I certainly hope not, but I dunno...), not only does this knowledge not stop them from getting cheap kills, but they still don't stop after people are flooding the chat with messages telling them to. Why is it common practice to do this, and why aren't admins as rigorous with these players as they are with the deconners themselves?

Because most of them are also players who are just trying to enjoy themselves and not paid professionals working 24 hours a day to ensure your personal gaming enjoyment?

Most admins will deal with the worst offenders, issue stern warnings, and shepherd players back towards the goodness. Yes, ppl who attack while knowing the other team has been deconned are cheap and cheesy, but then, lots of ppl are cheap and cheesy, especially in an Internet context, especially with so many fine examples of sportsmanship to follow.

Also, flooding the chat with messages to stop is like yelling at a puppy who's peeing on the rug. Any attention is good attention. It just excites and overstimulates their sense of weaniness; not only can't they stop themselves, you're just making it worse. They'll do it again next time, just to see if you're watching.

Sometimes, when you're an admin (have you ever actually maintained a server?) you hafta get back to playing, since no one is paying you to do otherwise, and I don't know about you my but time ain't free. I can't chase down every little player for every little infraction. This is the Wild West out here. Care to help?

As to why it's common practice among players, that is the level of perceived morality on the servers you frequent.

Cheers!

To the OP: You've finally found the one weapon that unlocks all the others - teamwork!
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Caveman on December 18, 2007, 10:02:17 am
2¢... If you don't have the time to administrate a server, don't run one.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: The MC Horton Crankfire on December 18, 2007, 03:40:36 pm
2¢... If you don't have the time to administrate a server, don't run one.

(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8651/respekknucklesavilo5.gif)

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: tuple on December 18, 2007, 04:50:17 pm
"We've been deconned" is the most overused excuse in this game.  It used to mean that belier13 had connected and deconned eggs and the OM.  Now anytime a builder moves RC poorly or without properly announcing it, its "WE'VE BEEN DECONNED!  BAN!".  I call bullshit.  You don't get to call out deconners when its your team that screwed up, NOT the admins OR some griefer.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were admins somewhere protecting botters.  However, I suspect it is more common that admins are protecting someone they know isn't a botter.  I know players from before there were public bots who come in under assumed names to servers I admin.  I search for IPs and find, low and behold, its old school whats his name joined for a round or two.  Half way through the match I'm cancelling vote kicks cause the noobs are too busy screaming about botting to bother speccing him to learn.  Meanwhile, I'm speccing him, to learn.  What do I do then, I assign him an admin level that basically keeps him from getting vote kicked if I'm not around.

I will freely admit that I have been extremely tempted to just kick killwhores outright.  I was verbally abusing one killwhore who camped under the stairs in transit in a bsuit with a psaw to kill dretches, for about 5 minutes.  After a while, his friend says "but he has more kills than you!"  Seriously, morons.  I usually end those matches with "but you still lost cause you suck".  I should just start kicking them outright.  Fortunately, no share means kill whores are less effective at screwing the match.

Ok, I'm done bitching for a good 37 minutes!
Title: Re: Why people should really admin a server, instead of complaining...
Post by: player1 on December 18, 2007, 05:14:51 pm
Sometimes I just can't smite and applaud fast enough! :P  >:( ;D

@Tuple: ;) 8) :laugh:
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: The MC Horton Crankfire on December 18, 2007, 08:09:37 pm
"We've been deconned" is the most overused excuse in this game.  It used to mean that belier13 had connected and deconned eggs and the OM.  Now anytime a builder moves RC poorly or without properly announcing it, its "WE'VE BEEN DECONNED!  BAN!".  I call bullshit.  You don't get to call out deconners when its your team that screwed up, NOT the admins OR some griefer.

I don't know if you meant that in response to what I said, but if you did, then this is an entirely different situation. I agree, it's awful when people cry decon anytime the RC/OM goes down (especially when the builder told the team well beforehand, heh), and I always try to tell the mods to cancel the inevitable kickvote that comes after that, but when a team actually is deconned, the other team has no excuse to keep attacking.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Tycho on December 18, 2007, 08:59:53 pm
nice topic :) I'd give a +1 to OP if I could. :-X

Personally I like to be on top of the board but I despise killwhoreing and I usually end up in middle of the board because of chainsuiting tyrants while killwhores run amok and lucispam bazillions of dretches only to never actually enter the alien base and kill some buildable. The best is when we got 4-6 pulses and lucies and I'm the only guy who fires at the goon sniping our RC because all the heavy guns are firing at those juicy killwhore-food dretches... This makes me most upset. Especially when I get flamed for saying "We could have won if someone else would have helped me kill thos f***ing eggs" just like Tuple said... :-\

And this works vica versa too: tyrants chewing armourless humans then running away at the first sight of a luci thus leaving us dretches evoless until they are chased off and we manage to survive the following spam.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Dance Commander on December 18, 2007, 09:49:55 pm
its really not necessary to have teamwork on all levels.  only the top few on each team need to work together to pull off a win.  sad, but its true.  the other people just get in the way on alien, or teamkill on human.  if you cant tell when to stop slashing/firing, your going to be a hinderance to your team, social skills or no social skills.  the top few working together obviously makes everyone feel as if they are playing better and having a good fun game because the other team is being drained of evos/creds, but its really just the top pulling the weight.  Teamwork is hardly needed on aliens, unless your in a scrim or doing an SD rush/base attack.  Especially in atcs, which is so small you always are somewhat near a teammate.  Other maps are bigger, but you'll still have backup because of people just playing the game.  Consciously backing up your teammates is really only needed on aliens in elite games, like the old pick up ones we used to have on SGA  :) or in scrims...
it is important for the top few to work together on humans though.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Paradox on December 25, 2007, 07:06:56 pm
One thing that really pisses me off in Halo 3 (another team game) is the people that don't have voice. Come on people, a mic comes with the 360, and they are only 5 bucks. It applies just as much to trem as it does to halo, by not communicating, you hurt your team more than help it.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: jr2 on December 26, 2007, 09:14:53 am
Hmm... I try to communicate (with the keyboard), and I have a mic.. perhaps I should try using TS2 more often.  I haven't really played with it too much before.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Johnpp on December 26, 2007, 09:48:55 am
One thing that really pisses me off in Halo 3 (another team game) is the people that don't have voice. Come on people, a mic comes with the 360, and they are only 5 bucks. It applies just as much to trem as it does to halo, by not communicating, you hurt your team more than help it.
I agree, that would get annoying, but then there's the fact that some people may not want to spread their voice over the internet. Plus, I'd turn it off, so I wouldn't have to live with the over-used swearing that would most likely be there.
Title: Re: Why typing skills are important in a team game
Post by: player1 on December 26, 2007, 04:48:18 pm
Even if you just use the keyboard, even if you don't have any chat keybinds, you can still communicate better than half of the casual players out there. I agree that a mic is great for match play, and for general clan play or private server play in general, but there are still a ton of players out there who don't even use teamchat when they are moving base or coordinating an attack. Just a general "moving OM" or "arm down" or "incoming - DEFEND" doesn't take that long to type, especially if you are in the spawn queue. I try to report in enough to let the team know what's up where I'm at, and if the enemy is suddenly weaker or threatening.

Also, in maps with location tags, you can just type "..." in teamchat, to let your team know all is quiet at your current position.

Lastly, keeping the ROFLs to a minimum helps to not flood chat so much, so important messages stick around a bit in crowded games. Everybody enjoys a good "LOLWTF?" death-rattle every now and then, but you don't have to do it every single time (you spamfeeders know who you are).
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: zybork on December 26, 2007, 09:27:21 pm
its really not necessary to have teamwork on all levels.  only the top few on each team need to work together to pull off a win.  sad, but its true.  the other people just get in the way on alien, or teamkill on human.

No, this is not true. If an unskilled player realizes he gets in the way of others and tries to stay behind defending or whatever, this *is* social skills - because he recognizes the needs of the team to be more important than his own ones.

I'll never forget this one game where we (human team) played against a bunch of lone-fighter aliens, who always complained that four of us were "camping" at the base, killing any dretches that came of course but also dragoons and even tyrants because the instant one arrived he immediately got gunned/rifled/pulsed down from all sides at once, giving him no chance to even have a small chew on our precious buildables. (It was in that railway-station map.)

They complained about our excessive camping and so on and did not realize that meanwhile the rest of our team killed all the eggs, grangers, and then - Overmind down! - and they were done for.

I'll never forget that they lost this game, altough they had one superb player and we were only average at best, we won because of our teamplay. I'll never forget this game.

And thanks for the tipp about the clan, maybe I will join one. But I'll ask about this in the clans-forum, not here.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: jr2 on December 27, 2007, 08:54:59 am
Hehe.. you mean Transit?  I was a builder once... I considered it my personal mission to keep 2-3 eggs on the human base ceiling, as the humans were too busy running around trying to kill aliens.  That was a short game, needless to say.  One or two players did notice the eggs, and even managed to kill a few of them (and me) sometimes, but they either didn't communicate (possible), or they were ignored by the killwhores / Halo-style players (more likely).  I had a good laugh at the end of that match.  Pwnt by a stubborn Adv Granger!! XD
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Owl on December 31, 2007, 12:54:17 am
You remind me of player1 when I first read some of his posts.

I'm sure you'll learn and grow to be a great player. You've at least got the personality.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Revan on January 02, 2008, 01:56:00 pm
Hehe.. you mean Transit?  I was a builder once... I considered it my personal mission to keep 2-3 eggs on the human base ceiling, as the humans were too busy running around trying to kill aliens.  That was a short game, needless to say.  One or two players did notice the eggs, and even managed to kill a few of them (and me) sometimes, but they either didn't communicate (possible), or they were ignored by the killwhores / Halo-style players (more likely).  I had a good laugh at the end of that match.  Pwnt by a stubborn Adv Granger!! XD

WOW!!! thats superb genius, that map is hard

also +infinity on the "if I kill you its skillz, if you kill me its aimboting" shit -- I was once accused of it on aranchid when I discovered what a  :helmet: :battpack: :grenade: + pulse rifle could do

Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: AllmanBros on January 13, 2008, 08:33:34 pm
And if someones a far better player than others, why should people care? Why should those players try to get to both teams, if they are in a slaughter-raid? It is about yourself having fun, who cares about anybody else in the game? Also, people always go alone. Just always. Because it is about YOU making money, who cares about that this is team game? The base needs no protection because it surely has those turrets and can defend itself, so a builder is not necessary as well.


Ok, I'll stop enjoying myself to make sure players who can't kill stuff on their own can have fun, too.

No thanks. If you can't kill something by yourself, go with your groups. Don't expect more experienced players to do it for you. I've played with the cream of the crop of trem players (skillwise, in public games) and I can tell you, its more fun to play against them than with them, so no, experienced players dont hop onto a team with other experienced players to demolish the opposing team.


Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: jr2 on January 20, 2008, 01:54:13 am
And if someones a far better player than others, why should people care? Why should those players try to get to both teams, if they are in a slaughter-raid? It is about yourself having fun, who cares about anybody else in the game? Also, people always go alone. Just always. Because it is about YOU making money, who cares about that this is team game? The base needs no protection because it surely has those turrets and can defend itself, so a builder is not necessary as well.


Ok, I'll stop enjoying myself to make sure players who can't kill stuff on their own can have fun, too.

No thanks. If you can't kill something by yourself, go with your groups. Don't expect more experienced players to do it for you. I've played with the cream of the crop of trem players (skillwise, in public games) and I can tell you, its more fun to play against them than with them, so no, experienced players dont hop onto a team with other experienced players to demolish the opposing team.




You know there's only 2 teams in Trem.  Unless the cream of the crop players are equally balanced there *will* be a problem.  (Unless counterbalanced by a really n00bish player on the team with more good players.)
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: AllmanBros on January 20, 2008, 02:58:46 am
And if someones a far better player than others, why should people care? Why should those players try to get to both teams, if they are in a slaughter-raid? It is about yourself having fun, who cares about anybody else in the game? Also, people always go alone. Just always. Because it is about YOU making money, who cares about that this is team game? The base needs no protection because it surely has those turrets and can defend itself, so a builder is not necessary as well.


Ok, I'll stop enjoying myself to make sure players who can't kill stuff on their own can have fun, too.

No thanks. If you can't kill something by yourself, go with your groups. Don't expect more experienced players to do it for you. I've played with the cream of the crop of trem players (skillwise, in public games) and I can tell you, its more fun to play against them than with them, so no, experienced players dont hop onto a team with other experienced players to demolish the opposing team.




He said "player", and unless he made a typo that is one good player in the game, on both teams.

And yes, I realize there are 2 teams  :D
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: St. Anger on January 20, 2008, 03:04:06 am
//Slightly Offtopic

Tremulous needs an "official" definition for killwhore. I don't know how many times I've been called a killwhore just because I had a high amount of kills.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: AllmanBros on January 20, 2008, 04:28:03 am
//Slightly Offtopic

Tremulous needs an "official" definition for killwhore. I don't know how many times I've been called a killwhore just because I had a high amount of kills.
Exactly. Doesnt matter how many eggs you've killed, or any structures. At the end of the game theres always someone...
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: BeerBastard on January 27, 2008, 05:21:36 pm
//Slightly Offtopic

Tremulous needs an "official" definition for killwhore. I don't know how many times I've been called a killwhore just because I had a high amount of kills.

I would say a definition would be someone who goes out, to kill only. Not attack the other base. Sometimes its hard to tell, if some just get sidetracked on the way and have to return for health.

Another note is, I don't think it should ever be used before stage 3. Killing a lot in stages 1 and 2 have a goal in themselves.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Kaleo on January 29, 2008, 06:09:16 am
You said "...end of rant." half way through? What was the second half?
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: SoulAsasiN on January 29, 2008, 07:24:33 am
A question on Etiquettes here...

I'm still bit of a noob here, so bear with me...

I'v read that "staying in base, camping and spamming corners" is bad form....but I'v also read that someone has got to stay behind to defend the base, lest everyone runs off to be killwhores and Fcuk the team strategy. As a newbie I feel I am more useful staying near base than running off and feeding. I don't have fantastic killscores, but I'm never at the bottom either.

As an example, I was defending the base with some other other guys...I was in an elevated position, (Karith map I think, base was behind some sliding doors in a big hanger type room). I had a MD and batt pack, the other fellows had a chainguns and the like...one builder keeping things alive. Rants were periodically rushing the base 1 or 2 at a time and dealing damage. It was only us 3 that were keeping the rants at bay. All of us were "camping" and "spamming". The only way they eventually broke through our defense was  a dretchstorm to break us up while the rants finished the job.

My question is...wheres the bad form?? we had a strategy that was working, that was defeated only when the enemy changed their strategy. This is the nature of warfare. 

Could someone explain the difference to this here noob?   :-\
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on January 29, 2008, 11:49:06 am
@Killwhoring:
the guy who is staying on a corridor to handle low-skill dretches with a lucicannon just for the frag amount instead of fighting aliens with more balanced "weight class" or killing people at spawn spots instead of killing the spawn itself is killwhoreing. I've seen many.

@SoulAsassin:
spamming should be avoided even while defending the base. it means you keep on firing to the same spot where aliens are going to come, without actually aiming or waiting for them to come. this can make a lot of friendly fire damage also.
usually "camping" is when your team is equipped enough for an attack but still not moving out. like i'd say a chaingunner is a camper if he stays in the base as that weapon is dealing a high amount of damage and can hit big aliens as goons and tyrants with almost 100% accuracy.
nobody expects you to rush out unarmored and with only a rifle if you are surrounded by big mofos.
and ofc nobody expects you to leave the base when noone else is around. guards (or usually one) are (is) always needed at least to warn others if base is in danger.
the problem with camping is that dretches and other smallies don't have a chance to play if humans are in their base, and this way half of the team is just suffering while others are simply having a boring time...
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: DHRUVINATOR on January 29, 2008, 01:37:06 pm
Ah this is funny.

Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Revan on January 29, 2008, 06:10:43 pm
spamming should be avoided even while defending the base. it means you keep on firing to the same spot where aliens are going to come, without actually aiming or waiting for them to come. this can make a lot of friendly fire damage also.
usually "camping" is when your team is equipped enough for an attack but still not moving out. like i'd say a chaingunner is a camper if he stays in the base as that weapon is dealing a high amount of damage and can hit big aliens as goons and tyrants with almost 100% accuracy.

Yes a chaingun will kill goons and rants pretty quick which is EXACTLY why they are needed at base, you need something that can hold up and deal tremendous damage quick (the luci is almost useless for this it fires FAR to slow)
 >:(
Title: Re: Why aiming skills are important in a team game
Post by: player1 on January 30, 2008, 04:36:19 am
yes, plz use a luci in ur own base
& plz aim towards ur own players & structures
don't let the rate of fire bother you

i think a chaingunner aiming away from the base can be useful
constant damage slows enemies down
plus it's no guarantee, you can still get dealt on
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on January 30, 2008, 11:08:28 am
Yes a chaingun will kill goons and rants pretty quick which is EXACTLY why they are needed at base, you need something that can hold up and deal tremendous damage quick (the luci is almost useless for this it fires FAR to slow)
 >:(
they are needed at base, but not IN base. if you sit behind the turret, tyrants and goons will destroy them one by one, in a pitifully slow and boring way. if you get a chaingun, you should jump down and dance around tyrants with grenade in your mouth, making them teamkill each others - and then finish the rest.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: jr2 on January 31, 2008, 07:19:13 am
Yes a chaingun will kill goons and rants pretty quick which is EXACTLY why they are needed at base, you need something that can hold up and deal tremendous damage quick (the luci is almost useless for this it fires FAR to slow)
 >:(
they are needed at base, but not IN base. if you sit behind the turret, tyrants and goons will destroy them one by one, in a pitifully slow and boring way. if you get a chaingun, you should jump down and dance around tyrants with grenade in your mouth, making them teamkill each others - and then finish the rest.

You mean like me in ATCS?

-jr2 jumps down, begins spraying as he moves
-rant jumps over his head, wiggles one claw as he sails to the other side
-jr2 dies, having managed to fire 30 rounds of chaingun at nothing in particular

See, if I could actually see what I did wrong, and how to do it better in the future, it wouldn't be so infuriating.  How the heck do you avoid an attack you can't see?  It should be logical.  Like, I'm dancing around a rant in the hallway, and I jump towards the wall, trying to sidestep him.  He's still facing the other way, but I see him attack, and even though he's nowheres near me, I die.  You can't learn (easily) because you can't freaking see. 

Now, I've gotten good enough so that I can sometimes drive a newb to newb-average rant insane by dodging them for about 45 seconds (sometimes more) as a naked rifleman... what gives?  A real rant would easily solve that situation... but I imagine, from the other player perspective, it prolly looked a heck of a lot like they were making perfect attacks that I was magically dodging.

Hmph.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on January 31, 2008, 10:37:11 am

for me, trying to kill tyrants is much more fun then crouching on top of reactor :-(
and if you don't move out (at ATCS especially), the low HP tyrants will heal themselves just 4 meters from you back to full HP and will attack again.
and goons are often concentrating on sniping, wich allows you to grab half of their HP before they actually notice you.

but, hey, I'm a feeder so it might be not as much fun for others :-D
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Dracone on January 31, 2008, 11:17:10 am
I'm sad because I'm a feeder. :( BUT THERE IS HOPE! I am training myself in this "run away and heal instead of dying" thing. It hurts though. :/

And jr2, it's difficult for what you want to happen. I wish I could see exactly where they were aiming at as well but the unfortunate fact, as far as getting better, is that the models of the players do not keep up with the turning of some players. If your sens is high enough, you can turn and hit before any change in direction is even possible to be noticed by your enemy. However, I have seen rare cases where a rant or goon instantly flips around 180 degrees. It looks quite odd.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on January 31, 2008, 11:30:21 am
I'm sad because I'm a feeder. :( BUT THERE IS HOPE! I am training myself in this "run away and heal instead of dying" thing. It hurts though. :/

And jr2, it's difficult for what you want to happen. I wish I could see exactly where they were aiming at as well but the unfortunate fact, as far as getting better, is that the models of the players do not keep up with the turning of some players. If your sens is high enough, you can turn and hit before any change in direction is even possible to be noticed by your enemy. However, I have seen rare cases where a rant or goon instantly flips around 180 degrees. It looks quite odd.

instant 180turn is a simple bind, with 125 FPS it looks like this when it is attached to button z:

bind z vstr turn
set turn "cl_yawspeed 1725; +right; wait 26; -right; cl_yawspeed 140"

you can upgrade your skills dramatically by training one versus one with a friend just for frags, especially dretch vs rifle to improve aiming and dodging with both races. then you can change for different weapons and monster classes to practice specified issues. try to find skilled opponents so you can learn from them.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Revan on February 01, 2008, 04:36:59 pm

You mean like me in ATCS?

-jr2 jumps down, begins spraying as he moves
-rant jumps over his head, wiggles one claw as he sails to the other side
-jr2 dies, having managed to fire 30 rounds of chaingun at nothing in particular

If there is only 1 or 2 rants / goons GET BEHIND THEM! turrets in front and a chain in the ass what do you think will happen?

Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: The Crazie Coward on February 02, 2008, 02:15:10 pm
social skills aeh? they are important but are u missing 1 last part to finish it? Building! you forgot to include that part. I have been building all these time and cooperation + balance will still make u lose if the enemy ever reach to your stupid noob build base with rets all over. Building bases takes up nearly half of the game, where the other half is the players social skills/pro. A good base + good players is what i called a extremely good team.

btw Raven im looking forward to see u in trem for complementing on my clan (TSME) for good work of having good base buildiers :)
(just wondering where u hang out the most)
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Revan on February 02, 2008, 04:12:38 pm
social skills aeh? they are important but are u missing 1 last part to finish it? Building! you forgot to include that part. I have been building all these time and cooperation + balance will still make u lose if the enemy ever reach to your stupid noob build base with rets all over. Building bases takes up nearly half of the game, where the other half is the players social skills/pro. A good base + good players is what i called a extremely good team.

btw Raven im looking forward to see u in trem for complementing on my clan (TSME) for good work of having good base buildiers :)
(just wondering where u hang out the most)

Nice to see (errrm... read) you again I was beginning to think TSME was dead. I am almost always at |SST|Tremulous, what server does TSME play usually?
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: The Crazie Coward on February 03, 2008, 09:21:37 am
TSME hang out at SST or DS Dretch Storm...usually those with high players.
Title: Re: Why scoring systems that only show kills are limited
Post by: player1 on February 03, 2008, 02:28:19 pm
//Slightly Offtopic

Tremulous needs an "official" definition for killwhore. I don't know how many times I've been called a killwhore just because I had a high amount of kills.
Exactly. Doesnt matter how many eggs you've killed, or any structures. At the end of the game theres always someone...

//Slightly Offtopic

Tremulous needs an "official" definition for killwhore. I don't know how many times I've been called a killwhore just because I had a high amount of kills.

I would say a definition would be someone who goes out, to kill only. Not attack the other base. Sometimes its hard to tell, if some just get sidetracked on the way and have to return for health.

Another note is, I don't think it should ever be used before stage 3. Killing a lot in stages 1 and 2 have a goal in themselves.

It's good to hear from some people who I know are good, basekilling-oriented players who are also really good killers, and who often get accused of the heinous killwhoring. I agree with all three of you dudes (even though I'm so bad at the game, there's know way I can say I really see it from your perspective).

There should be some way besides chat to see who destroyed major structures on the enemy team. Maybe echo'd like a PM (in the center of the screen)? "St. Anger destroyed the reactor! Attack, you idiots." Like a message to each of his teammates, that would fade away after half a second or so. Maybe little badges could accrue next to your score (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7329.0), showing who has destroyed how many structures. Maybe after X kills, without entering the enemy build zone (creep area or power limit), OR doing at least enough structure damage to destroy their cheapest structure (100 iirc), within Y minutes, you get a PM from the server, telling you to move on, and at Z kills, you get autoslapped (e.g. - X=10, dmg=100, Y=5, Z=20).

Also, BB, you're right about getting kills before S3. In Stages One and Two, killing is the main objective of the game. Killing them faster than they kill us, so we can get the cool toys before they do. Reaching stageup before the enemy, and pressing that advantage to do it again, should be the goal of any competent squad of Tremsters. It's true that somebody has to build and defend, but I agree with you dudes, somebody also has to go out and get all those kills, so the rest of us lamers can get a better weapon/class, and begin to participate.

By the way, dudes; thanks for the evos, the pulse rifles, and the adv maras. Nice coattails. Now kill 'em all again. I want a lucicannon. :)

Cheers!

P.S. That's me trying to knock out their Armoury/Booster.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Revan on February 04, 2008, 12:39:22 pm
I don't think there is such a thing (edit: as killwhoring) in trem: at s1-s2 you need kills (and money), s3 you need money, if you have enough /donate it, I always donate my evos if I have more that enough

Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: toastisgood on February 20, 2008, 03:28:35 am
I never leave without a buddie  :angel:(just in case:me-} :advmarauder: vs-} :battlesuit: +chaingun)
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: Metsjeesus on February 20, 2008, 08:44:47 am
Yes a chaingun will kill goons and rants pretty quick which is EXACTLY why they are needed at base, you need something that can hold up and deal tremendous damage quick (the luci is almost useless for this it fires FAR to slow)
 >:(
they are needed at base, but not IN base. if you sit behind the turret, tyrants and goons will destroy them one by one, in a pitifully slow and boring way. if you get a chaingun, you should jump down and dance around tyrants with grenade in your mouth, making them teamkill each others - and then finish the rest.
1 battlesuited chaingun can't kill a adv-goon or tyr, 2 battlesuited chainguns can kill adv-goons and probably tyr too(but 1 guy usually dies), 3 bs chainguns mostly kill single tyr and survive, but 1 other poisoned alien probably kills one of us. 4 battlesuited chaingunners kill everything on their way, exept well teamed tyrs but even then they lost usually more evos then humans cash. But try to make such a 4 guy team.

Camping is valid tactic. it means you wait until alien comes to you, and if its hurt and flees YOU FOLLOW and try to kill it, specially if you dont got weapon and armor. Damn i hate that, when you shot 4 shotguns full into tyrs body, even hear that he is hurted when you die, but none of 4 riflemans follows him to make last 5 bullets into his body, they must all go to medi and heal.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: whitebear on February 20, 2008, 04:22:16 pm
camped under the stairs in transit in a bsuit with a psaw to kill dretches
Thats what I call to be in category of taunting. Player should be able to restrain himself to be tempted to attack these unless they really have a chances of defeating them (such as being last player of their team and no base to med in). Of course you don't call it skill because anyone with bit playing experience could do same.
I would not incriminate any game play style as long as it does not consist cheating or exploiting bugs.
Title: Re: Why social skills are important in a team game
Post by: King on February 20, 2008, 05:01:32 pm
You can also use !pause in spite of the incessant complaining of the people who are "in battle."  And at the same time, you can teach the one who "deconned" the OM/RC/Egg/Node during SD and tell them where to put it, or you can put them on the spectators and talk to them about what they did wrong and how to do it right the next time.

Forgive my ignorance if this was already posted, but I didn't see anything about 3/4 of the way down so I decided to post it.  And yes, I know every server might not have !pause.  However, I frequent a server that has that option as well as something called !forespec or something along the lines of !aforespec which allows the "victim" the right to join a team or disallow it.

Adios,

King