Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: zybork on December 16, 2007, 04:16:43 pm
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We all know, human weapons are too weak. Pulse rifle projectiles are too slow, the only guns really usable seem to be rifle, flamethrower, saw, shotgun and lucifer cannon, which is also hard to wield, but very effective.
But what about that chaingun?
It would make a formidable weapon, extreme rate of firing, even if the bullets remain that weak, but you simply cannot use this gun: I often made the experience that I am standing in front of even some weaker aliens, in point blank range, it should be like shooting a fish in the barrel, but no, no effect. Dammit, I couldn't even kill dretches with that gun, where a rifle in the same place would have killed them twice at least.
So what's up with that gun? Why that terrible inaccuracy?
Human weapons suck in general, but the chaingun beats'em all, in that respect.
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Practice more. Every human weapon is good.
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Every Human weapon is capable of giving you a lot of credits with the ammo provided. The problem lies in properly applying a given weapon to a given situation. Everybody is well familair with the case of the Lucifer Cannon that starts blasting away in the middle of his own base. Or the Flamer that decides to roast a Dragoon while half his team is already on it.
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Zybork, I suggest you buy a battle suit/chaingun combo some time. The only thing keeping you from mowing down everything in your path (goons and tyrants are nicely sized targets for it) is your dodging ability and your team's state of cohesion.
Also, I'm pretty sure this thread falls under #1 (http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6449)
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Everybody is well familair with the case of the Lucifer Cannon that starts blasting away in the middle of his own base. Or the Flamer that decides to roast a Dragoon while half his team is already on it.
That's right, but it is a bad thing that we are all familiar with that ::)
Well, I usally crouched to reduce kickback, and I definetly did try the combination chaingun+battle suit - but I did not have the impression that it did do much good, especially if the range exceeded let's say five metres, if a human is considered to be appr. 1.80m tall. I think a little bit more accuracy would do that weapon good.
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trem isn't balanced to make new players have an easy time. It's made so that good players vs good players will be balanced
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So, then, how did the creators of Tremulous figure that out in the first place, when the game was all new, and there could have been no experienced players at all? ;)
And I simply deny that "good players can wield those weapons"-theory, because this would mean that a knive would be a better weapon than a pistol because deadly if thrown 100% correctly against a "noob" pistol fighter... No, people, don't tell me that. Aliens are definetely too strong/human weapons are too week. But I just wanted to suggest to do something about that chaingun, that's all.
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Aliens are definetely too strong/human weapons are too week.
#1 yet?
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I hope not. But it seems that literally any thread about human weaponry turns out like this. For a reason, I guess, but it does.
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I find myself wielding a chaingun (and almost never a bsuit with it, I like my radar) near the endgame when aliens are S3 and the rants and goon+'s are charging the base. Too many goon+'s, myself included, will spend time sniping buildables and not paying as much attention to their health; just getting to the side of them a bit and opening up the chaingun tends to kill them quick. For rants, I try to wait until they rush the base, and while they're up to their nuts in turrets trying to take them out, I close in from behind and block while chaingunning at the same time. Tend to panic when they get their health somewhat low, turn to run away, and can't - and now are taking fire from probably 3 turrets and me at the same time.
Other than that, chaingun doesn't get much use by me. I see people kill dretches with it all the time and think they've picked a lousy weapon for the job, but then if you're waiting for the next rant it makes sense to use what you've got instead of swapping guns to a lasgun or MD and having to swap back when you hear the tyrant's roar coming down the hall.
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The chaingun is awesome for killing any kind of alien- especially if you are not wearing a suit, I simply love the recoil.
It's such a good weapon agains those imba s1vs1 goons that just rape whole human teams, try it! Noone else than me seems to be using the chaingun before s3, though vthe fact remains that it is still as good in close quarter combar, regardless of the recoil. And that's what the chaingun is used for anyway- close quarter combat, so it is really, really awesome. Kinda ineffective against buildings though..
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Zybork;
How long have you been playing Tremulous? A week?
Just wondering, since you don't appear to be familiar with human weaponry. The chaingun is an excellent squad support weapon; I (as well as just about any other competent human player) can kill a goon with a chaingun without much hassle. The hardest part of chaining a dragoon is the initial engagement; you have to survive the first pounce and subsequent chomp to have any chance of killing the goon. If you dodge the pounce and wind up your chaingun at the same time, you can start circling the dragoon and chew through its armored skin within about 10 seconds. If you have a few competent teammates with you at the time, your chances of victory in that single engagement are very high.
A team of chaingunners can very easily take out tyrants, especially if you're chainsuitting and chasing. Even one chaingunner can kill a runaway tyrant, since the tyrant is more focused on escaping than turning around to kill the chaingunner who could dodge the first attack and kill the tyrant.
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Zybork;
How long have you been playing Tremulous? A week?
Just wondering, since you don't appear to be familiar with human weaponry. The chaingun is an excellent squad support weapon; I (as well as just about any other competent human player) can kill a goon with a chaingun without much hassle. The hardest part of chaining a dragoon is the initial engagement; you have to survive the first pounce and subsequent chomp to have any chance of killing the goon. If you dodge the pounce and wind up your chaingun at the same time, you can start circling the dragoon and chew through its armored skin within about 10 seconds. If you have a few competent teammates with you at the time, your chances of victory in that single engagement are very high.
A team of chaingunners can very easily take out tyrants, especially if you're chainsuitting and chasing. Even one chaingunner can kill a runaway tyrant, since the tyrant is more focused on escaping than turning around to kill the chaingunner who could dodge the first attack and kill the tyrant.
The opposite is also true.
A good tyrant can take out a team (meaning 2 or 3, not 10) of chainsuitters. A good dragoon can kill an s2 chaingunner without the first pounce.
This game is very dependent on individual skill, IMO. You can't really make good generalizations.
Regardless, zybork, you should probably play a lot more before you try to complain about balance. Especially if you think the following is true: "Pulse rifle projectiles are too slow, the only guns really usable seem to be rifle, flamethrower, saw, shotgun and lucifer cannon, which is also hard to wield, but very effective."
You're forgetting how good the lasgun and the mass driver can be. Actually, almost any weapon can be extremely good. You simply need to use the correct weapon for a specific situation. E.g., don't use a mass driver against a tyrant, nor pulse rifle against a marauder.
These explanations aren't really good, though, because it's better to learn the simpler things by yourself.
FUK DIS GAEM
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As Daenyth said: "Every human weapon is good."
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Human weapons suck in general, but the chaingun beats'em all, in that respect.
As has been said before each has it's purposes, rifles are good in general against the dretch, and mara. Shotguns are great against dretches, and basiliks, not so good at taking down mara's. The mighty chaingun isn't as good against the mara or the dretch as say the laser or shotty (respectively).
The one thing u will notice with the chain is that the ammo disappears very fast which means that it's more useful at defending the base while there's aliens that are starting to overwhelm it. the Chain isn't much chop if u want to venture into enemy territory by yourself or with only a couple of fellow humans. This has been my experience anyway, and i've been playing for over a year (so I hope I know a thing or two by now)
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n00bly n00bletz of n00bsome n00bfulness
(http://shogun.shafted.com.au/temp/bunny-noob.gif)
:o ::) :laugh:
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Maybe that's the reason why I have the impression that human weapons suck, because they of course are good for special purposes, but if you, let's say, go from A to B, you will have many different needs at certain points of your journey, and you cannot carry all the guns with you at once to change them later, and you hardly can outrun an alien you cannot kill, because they are usually at least as fast as you.
All this leads to a lack of balance, and of the approx. a few thousand games I played during the last few months, far more than 50% were won by the alien team.
You are right that the chaingun may be useful in closed quarters, but in that cases I prefer the painsaw, for it does not need reloading ;)
Again: I think a bit more accuracy would do the chaingun good.
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You are right that the chaingun may be useful in closed quarters, but in that cases I prefer the painsaw, for it does not need reloading ;)
Emphasis mine.
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What are chainguns good for, after all?
Owning the shit out of every motherfucker who stands in its way. Grab a Battlesuit and happy goon-hunting(pack a little aiming skill with you, too).
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Here, here. Pos. repped.
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Maybe that's the reason why I have the impression that human weapons suck, because they of course are good for special purposes, but if you, let's say, go from A to B, you will have many different needs at certain points of your journey, and you cannot carry all the guns with you at once to change them later, and you hardly can outrun an alien you cannot kill, because they are usually at least as fast as you.
All this leads to a lack of balance, and of the approx. a few thousand games I played during the last few months, far more than 50% were won by the alien team.
You are right that the chaingun may be useful in closed quarters, but in that cases I prefer the painsaw, for it does not need reloading ;)
Again: I think a bit more accuracy would do the chaingun good.
You can have all the guns with you. It's called moving in groups. And tbh with the coming of unlagged the chaingun has become far more dangerous to even the smaller aliens.
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Maybe that's the reason why I have the impression that human weapons suck, because they of course are good for special purposes, but if you, let's say, go from A to B, you will have many different needs at certain points of your journey, and you cannot carry all the guns with you at once to change them later, and you hardly can outrun an alien you cannot kill, because they are usually at least as fast as you.
Use your best judgment about what you can encounter on your way to your destination and your purpose there; if you're attacking a team of tyrants/advanced dragoons at A/HS3, don't run out of the base alone and naked with your wimpy little painsaw. Operate in groups and get enough credits to buy a battlesuit and chaingun, then you could have a chance at fighting those bigger aliens alone.
All this leads to a lack of balance, and of the approx. a few thousand games I played during the last few months, far more than 50% were won by the alien team.
True, when aliens hit S3 the likelihood that they will win the game is very good. Usually, human wins are made when the humans work together to quickly advance stages and deprive the aliens of evos. Any match with HS3 and AS2/1 will result in a human win since the lucifer cannon kills anything from those stages in one fully-charged shot. That's why organized human base raids are so important at stages 1 and 2; if you let the aliens get their tyrants, you WILL lose the game as soon as SD hits.
You are right that the chaingun may be useful in closed quarters, but in that cases I prefer the painsaw, for it does not need reloading ;)
If you don't know how to use the painsaw to attack aliens (and you likely don't) then you'll get assraped before you even touch them. Why? Because the painsaw is a contact weapon, meaning you have to actually touch your target with it. Aliens have slightly more ranged attacks, and will kill you as soon as you charge into them. This applies majorly to tyrants; if you don't have a bsuit or skill, you won't survive long enough to do 100HP worth of damage, let alone the tyrant's full 400HP, if you're up against someone who has the faintest idea of using the tyrant's slash.
Again: I think a bit more accuracy would do the chaingun good.
You go grab a gatling gun and hold it, firing, dead steady on the center mark of a target 200 yards away. The chaingun was not meant for sniping.
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Thats where the MD0Chaingun hybrid comes in kekeke...
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Thats where the MD0Chaingun hybrid comes in kekeke...
Don't they call those "Unpure Clients" nowadays?
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Maybe that's the reason why I have the impression that human weapons suck, because they of course are good for special purposes, but if you, let's say, go from A to B, you will have many different needs at certain points of your journey, and you cannot carry all the guns with you at once to change them later, and you hardly can outrun an alien you cannot kill, because they are usually at least as fast as you.
All this leads to a lack of balance, and of the approx. a few thousand games I played during the last few months, far more than 50% were won by the alien team.
You are right that the chaingun may be useful in closed quarters, but in that cases I prefer the painsaw, for it does not need reloading ;)
Again: I think a bit more accuracy would do the chaingun good.
You can have all the guns with you. It's called moving in groups. And tbh with the coming of unlagged the chaingun has become far more dangerous to even the smaller aliens.
Gee, a team-based game where one should stick with one's team because the various weapons are each limited in their own way? Sounds like a challenging situation. Too bad the OP would rather whine than learn. Wait until next week, when he tries playing as an Alien.
@OP: To what chaingun from what game are you comparing the Tremulous chaingun? High rate of fire is almost always balanced by low accuracy in such a weapon, which is why you should find a squaddie to cover your weak ass.
//Oh and congratulations on playing your very first shooter game ever! Now wipe the milk from behind your ears and listen to Uncle Survivor. He offers good advice. Stay with your team. Also, learn to aim. Also, learn what game balance is. Also, play more Tremulous. You can become a Human turret. Plus, you could - I don't know - learn to dodge and strafe? OK, have fun with your new learning curve! :-* ;) ::)
Edit'd to say:
Dude, read this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=6449.0), plz. (As you can see, your thread is a clear violation of cases #1 - alienz r 2 hard - and #10 - Trem needz a-changin'.)
P.S. I saw a Human team beat an Alien team in under two minutes on Tremor simply by sticking together and rushing while simultaneously defending. With Stage One weapons. What it takes is not better guns. What it takes is you, the player, understanding that you are playing a team-based game. The Human team's strongest weapon is teamwork. It's their Easter Egg, their Hidden Level, their Super Secret BFG. Playing together. That's all it takes. Go try it for another year and report back.
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sig side-note: i think the word u r lookin' 4 iz: RATIO, not ration, but, close, real close
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Maybe that's the reason why I have the impression that human weapons suck, because they of course are good for special purposes, but if you, let's say, go from A to B, you will have many different needs at certain points of your journey, and you cannot carry all the guns with you at once to change them later, and you hardly can outrun an alien you cannot kill, because they are usually at least as fast as you.
All this leads to a lack of balance, and of the approx. a few thousand games I played during the last few months, far more than 50% were won by the alien team.
You are right that the chaingun may be useful in closed quarters, but in that cases I prefer the painsaw, for it does not need reloading ;)
Again: I think a bit more accuracy would do the chaingun good.
You can have all the guns with you. It's called moving in groups. And tbh with the coming of unlagged the chaingun has become far more dangerous to even the smaller aliens.
Gee, a team-based game where one should stick with one's team because the various weapons are each limited in their own way? Sounds like a challenging situation. Too bad the OP would rather whine than learn. Wait until next week, when he tries playing as an Alien.
@OP: To what chaingun from what game are you comparing the Tremulous chaingun? High rate of fire is almost always balanced by low accuracy in such a weapon, which is why you should find a squaddie to cover your weak ass.
//Oh and congratulations on playing your very first shooter game ever! Now wipe the milk from behind your ears and listen to Uncle Survivor. He offers good advice. Stay with your team. Also, learn to aim. Also, learn what game balance is. Also, play more Tremulous. You can become a Human turret. Plus, you could - I don't know - learn to dodge and strafe? OK, have fun with your new learning curve! :-* ;) ::)
Edit'd to say:
Dude, read this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=6449.0), plz. (As you can see, your thread is a clear violation of cases #1 - alienz r 2 hard - and #10 - Trem needz a-changin'.)
P.S. I saw a Human team beat an Alien team in under two minutes on Tremor simply by sticking together and rushing while simultaneously defending. With Stage One weapons. What it takes is not better guns. What it takes is you, the player, understanding that you are playing a team-based game. The Human team's strongest weapon is teamwork. It's their Easter Egg, their Hidden Level, their Super Secret BFG. Playing together. That's all it takes. Go try it for another year and report back.
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sig side-note: i think the word u r lookin' 4 iz: RATIO, not ration, but, close, real close
I can say one thing to that. That one thing would have to be;
[size=9]UBER-PWNT[/size]
I love Player1. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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No offense, but Player1 is right, teamwork is EVERYTHING
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No offense, but Player1 is right, teamwork is EVERYTHING
I fight alone all the time.
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No offense, but Player1 is right, teamwork is EVERYTHING
I fight alone all the time.
You're a team all by yourself, I've played with you before. Half the free evos I ever got I got from a handful of players, and you're definitely in that list of the top five people who are consistently at the top of the killcount on the servers I play on (US West Coast). Which means you don't need teammates as bad as the guy who thinks a chaingun is too inaccurate. Obviously you've found a way to surmount that problem. By the way, thanks for all the evos. Happy holidays!
//Teamwork is pretty much everything for Humans. Aliens can work alone in that they can hunt solo, but they still need to cooperate to the extent that someone is still granging, (not everyone, and not no-one, but one or two people who are doing something besides practicing knockback on n00b dretches).
//Also, it would be great if Aliens didn't slash each other so much, and TK each other while kill-stealing (Yes, I know it takes three swipes to kill this Human, I'm mashing as fast as my mouse will allow, NO! I don't need anyone else to slash at him, too, DANGIT!, now I'm dead and some goon took his last 3 health points with a pounce-chomp from 15 virtual meters away, and my last 7 hp, too, CRAP! Thanks, TEAM! I hope Anger can spare some evos so I can get my lisk back or maybe they've got retribution turned on, *grumble*!)
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//Also, it would be great if Aliens didn't slash each other so much, and TK each other while kill-stealing (Yes, I know it takes three swipes to kill this Human, I'm mashing as fast as my mouse will allow, NO! I don't need anyone else to slash at him, too, DANGIT!, now I'm dead and some goon took his last 3 health points with a pounce-chomp from 15 virtual meters away, and my last 7 hp, too, CRAP! Thanks, TEAM! I hope Anger can spare some evos so I can get my lisk back or maybe they've got retribution turned on, *grumble*!)
I'm guilty of this; both KSing and TKing at the same time, and being on the receiving end of that combination.
Also, if you did the most damage but the goon got the finishing kill, you should've got the evo; evos go to the majority damage player, and the kill stat goes to whoever finished the humie.
That's why you see killwhores sometimes; they hunt in packs, let their teammates get the alien really low on health, then the KW fires off a couple rounds, gets the kill, and maybe 15 credits while their at it.
Personally, I think it's better to have no kills but a ton of credits than a ton of kills and no credits. Assists go further in team games; many an ass has been saved by my intervention with my trusty ol' lasgun, and many times have I had that favor returned.
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Personally, I think it's better to have no kills but a ton of credits than a ton of kills and no credits. Assists go further in team games; many an ass has been saved by my intervention with my trusty ol' lasgun, and many times have I had that favor returned.
definitely, a lot of games i might have 5 kills but have done as much damage as anyone in the top 5 (although i do build a lot, so you get a lot of free cred standing around improving the base...)
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Aww cmon guys we all know that OMG T3H HUMMIES R 4L\/\/4Y5 B13|\| PWNT!
I propose 1.2 includes a lucifer cannon with a built in battery pack, the speed of a las gun and the accuracy of a mass driver, oh yeah and we need to get rid of the overcharged effect, ITS SOOOOOOOO UNFAIR!!!!!.
And incase it tips the balance for the humans we make a new alien class, the battle granger with 10000 hp, but no build ability or attack. but it can still make those sm3xy soundz!
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i hope that was a sarcasm
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<sarcasm>
Aww cmon guys we all know that OMG T3H HUMMIES R 4L\/\/4Y5 B13|\| PWNT!
I propose 1.2 includes a lucifer cannon with a built in battery pack, the speed of a las gun and the accuracy of a mass driver, oh yeah and we need to get rid of the overcharged effect, ITS SOOOOOOOO UNFAIR!!!!!.
And incase it tips the balance for the humans we make a new alien class, the battle granger with 10000 hp, but no build ability or attack. but it can still make those sm3xy soundz!
</ sarcasm>
It was
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Chaingun is a fking awesum weapon, and humans are NOT TO WEAK.
If ya fucking work in a team and actually do stuff as a team you can mow down a goon in like 2 seconds, as opposed to aliens, all they do when they team up is block each other which starts a flamewar between aliens about blocking and then you can own them and they start raging about type killing.
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...all they do when they team up is block each other ...
Yup, been there, Too true Sanity
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No offense, but Player1 is right, teamwork is EVERYTHING
I fight alone all the time.
But he is right about the teamwork Anger. You go out and do the killing while I order those drinks with the little umbrellas in them. See? Perfect teamwork. ;)
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Chainguns are used constantly in scrim. If they are used in competition, then it is highly doubtful that they are useless.
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Aww cmon guys we all know that OMG T3H HUMMIES R 4L\/\/4Y5 B13|\| PWNT!
I propose 1.2 includes a lucifer cannon with a built in battery pack, the speed of a las gun and the accuracy of a mass driver, oh yeah and we need to get rid of the overcharged effect, ITS SOOOOOOOO UNFAIR!!!!!.
And incase it tips the balance for the humans we make a new alien class, the battle granger with 10000 hp, but no build ability or attack. but it can still make those sm3xy soundz!
I like the granger idea. It'd get mistaken for a normal battlegranger and humans would chase it down, leaving their base unguarded.
Hawt.
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with 10k hp i would just stand in their base till im down to about 500, maybe 2 of them could distract all the teslas and rets and then a rant or 2 could move in for demolition...
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Every human gun has a purpose.
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And meanwhile, I even found out which use a chaingun has:
It is a formidable way to encounter "base killers", i.e. dragoons and tyrants when combined with a battle suit.
If you look at its characteristics (http://satgnu.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Humans.Chaingun), you will realize that this one is capable of doing a damage of 1800 (!) healthpoints per clip, deploying this with a rate of 75hp of damage per second. So if you manage to chase an even fully healthy tyrant for a bit more than five secons, it will be a dead tyrant. Save your stamina for this!
If you manage to corner a tyrant and it cannot kill you instantly whyever, it will be dead. Even if you do not corner it but it gets stuck because another alien or a human is in the way, it will fall aswell.
Meanwhile, the zybork in the chainsuit has fended of and killed many attacking big bugs, increasing human base safety. So if you are afraid in the night and feel insecure, get a man in the chainsuit guarding your home, and all will be well ;)
PS: In any other case (=no battle suit), the chaingun is almost - useless.
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I've used the chaingun many times before without a Battlesuit. In a HS2 versus AS3 situation, the helmet+chaingun combo only means you can take 2/3 of the mauling from a tyrant before you die. Not that big of a difference if you consider a tyrant can kill a bsuit in 3 hits. Also, any tyrant can easily retreat after being hit with the first charged luci blast, while you can chase down any tyrant or goon with the chaingun plus sprint button.
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WTF r u talkin about? (thred master) the chain gun can easily kill a tyrant if you run at it or even from far range (not that far though) it easily kills dretches too! im sry but you must really suck if the chain gun doesn't kill for you
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to the OP:
play more trem
WTF? the pulse rifle is the best weapon in the game
in particular: :helmet: :battpack :grenade: + pulse is pure s2 ownage
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The best 2 weapons in the game naturally are the Blaster and the Painsaw, since they let you kill Aliens for as long as your health allows you to, not as long as your amount of ammunition allows you to. And that for a fraction of the cost.
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:lol: the Trem devs should be evil and make the Pain Saw operation be tied to the RC like the JetPack is.. I mean, the power has to come from somewhere, right? Or is it a mini-RC powered weapon? hehe
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The best 2 weapons in the game naturally are the Blaster and the Painsaw, since they let you kill Aliens for as long as your health allows you to, not as long as your amount of ammunition allows you to. And that for a fraction of the cost.
;D
this is exactly the reason why i challenged you and your friends to have a scrim with us.
but you are right that in ffa games theese tools can provide a huge advantage of surprise.
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Personally, I think it's better to have no kills but a ton of credits than a ton of kills and no credits. Assists go further in team games; many an ass has been saved by my intervention with my trusty ol' lasgun, and many times have I had that favor returned.
definitely, a lot of games i might have 5 kills but have done as much damage as anyone in the top 5 (although i do build a lot, so you get a lot of free cred standing around improving the base...)
Yes this happens to me all the time when I go out alone I don't get that many kills but I hurt alot of bugs
<sarcasm>
and yes team work is everything:
1. :marauder: jumps on :reactor:
2. in team chat: "RC MARA!!!!"
3. 4 fully charged lucis to the :reactor:
4. KABLOOEY!!!
5. in chat: "MUAHAHAHA newb luciers!"
perrrrfect teamwork :P
</sarcasm>