Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: testian on May 19, 2006, 08:43:54 pm
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Some servers have friendly fire on team mates enabled.
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I don't like it, because tremulous does not need such PSEUDO-realism and nobody is expecting it.
For pseudo-realism we have counter-strike.
It influences balance, because it's easier to teamkill as a human and I often shoot at teammates, because they have a lot of dretches around them.
btw: how can i filter FF-Servers?
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Know which ones have friendly fire, and which ones don't.
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Think about it: Aliens can't really do FF.
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Hate it for Aliens. Except the "tjw" server, they have a special kind of FF on that makes it so certain aliens and certain attacks I belive cant get FF hurt, which makes it alot better, plus that server has more build points so you can actually make a base, which rocks :) . Its just silly though on other servers. There is no "accidental" FF with a slash attack, you would have to be mentally retarded for that to happen "in real life" or in a huge battle surrounded by humans.
Its pretty much needed for humans though. Not only does it promote less camping, but unrealistic shooting+nading of thier own base+teammates like a frikin' rambo stops effectivly when FF is on. I hate being on a server where the humans do nothing but lucy+nade thier own base to death, and the only thing that gets damaged is the dretch. Its completly stupid.
So i voted YES... its alot more balanced and less campy with it on, and makes it so shooting/slashing (with big aliens) requires thought. However most servers should re-evaluate the alien FF, as TKing a dretch because of trample, or a dretch TKing a maradur is just silly. This is "fixed" on the "tjw" server though, so i tend to play there :)
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Any server using the trembot exe and .qvm has the dretch immunity
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I feel humans should get FF when it comes to explosives (grenade TK). Leave aliens alone.
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I think the way they have it on @db servers atm is fine. The only problem with FF is you can't trust your teammates to not screw up. ie. Having your Tyrant die from team poisoning.
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We didn't enable FF to raise the realism.
We activated it to stop the excessive fire spam from human side.
You have no chance to reach the human base when 4 or 5 humans spam into a corridor with lucis, plasmas and chainguns.
You know what I mean?
The teamkill ratio in the alien team corresponds the teamkill ratio in the human team. ;)
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You mean FF is just a temporary balance fix on your server.
Then it's okay.
Whatever, I don't care on collateral damage.
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i prefer it on, but sometimes even i get annoyed by ppl that spam with chaingun on S2.
The problem is, you never know if the enemy has just hit you or your teammates (i'm not talking about kills, but about hits)
but often ff prevents "spamming" with guns and blindly nading in base.
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I'm ok with FF on, i would just like to see some protection against massive teamkilling.
This guy Atso teamkilled on purpose, with every teamkill, aliens got one frag closer to the next stage.
teamkiller.jpg (http://freeweb.siol.net/vslapn1/teamkiller.jpg)
I just wish db@ central hive would have voting enabled for cases such as this.
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the resion i dont like FF on is that some times u get someone who has something very wrong with them who thinks its funny to TK all the time.
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Actually two of our servers (Andromeda and Proximus) are running FF off, all others are FF on. Choose what you like! ;)
There are pros and cons for FF, I actually like FF on more. It allows for more controlled / careful gameplay. Of course you may have griefers, but they know how to destroy a game with FF off, either (deconstructing, etc.). Of course you may have teammates killing you once in a while... but that happens on both sides and is not unbalancing the game.
Danny
P.S.: Voting should be allowed on Central Hive, at least there is "set g_allowvote 1" in the server.cfg ;)
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i voted yes, because..welll, i like it ;)
BUT:
Any server using the trembot exe and .qvm has the dretch immunity
I REALLY hope every server will support that soon. Dretching is really lousy when ff is on...i once saw a charged tyrant trampling over about 5 dretches, all dead. That was almost funny, if not one of them was me :)
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The problem is, that tjw is using / providing modified server- (and for administration client-) files.
We are using the main tremulous source with R1Admin and unless this dretchprotection is not implemented in the trunk I bet it will not show up on our servers.
But maybe it is better to trample a dretch standing in the way when you are fleeing a battle with a tyrant than having the dretch protected and blocking you to death... a dretch does not cost 5 points at least!
Danny
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It doesn't protect the dretch so mush as it sends the dretch flying away when hit by teammates.
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I have yet to see humans win on any #db server with FF on. The humans usually pick some small corridor to camp in. But, that doesn't work that well actually. When you get rushed by tyrants, only a few will be able to shoot, while the rest just have to wait. And with a few advanced dragoons, jetpackers gets taken down easily.
The endresult is... the humans lose. Every time I play that same scenario happens.
Though, on servers with no FF, aliens almost never win.
Well, what I'd like is: No player FF, but building FF. If you cast a grenade in your own base, then it should blow up the base, period.
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The endresult is... the humans lose. Every time I play that same scenario happens.
Though, on servers with no FF, aliens almost never win.
I cannot back up that comment. I do not win / lose more often than before with either human or aliens. As we mostly play coordinated with teamspeak we usually win 3 to 4 out of 5 matches... either side (mostly aliens). That has not changed since playing FF on mostly, it just feels more comfortable as human weapon spamming is reduced and gameplay is more controlled on either side. Camping a long tunnel with 5-8 people is ineffective, you are forced to go out and hunt... by camping hardcore humans usually just delay being overrun. To win you have to wipe aliens out and that is not harder with FF on! ;)
If you prefer playing FF off on our servers just join Proximus or Andromeda!
Danny
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Megabite"]The endresult is... the humans lose. Every time I play that same scenario happens.
Though, on servers with no FF, aliens almost never win.
I cannot back up that comment. I do not win / lose more often than before with either human or aliens. As we mostly play coordinated with teamspeak we usually win 3 to 4 out of 5 matches... either side (mostly aliens). That has not changed since playing FF on mostly, it just feels more comfortable as human weapon spamming is reduced and gameplay is more controlled on either side. Camping a long tunnel with 5-8 people is ineffective, you are forced to go out and hunt... by camping hardcore humans usually just delay being overrun. To win you have to wipe aliens out and that is not harder with FF on! ;)
If you prefer playing FF off on our servers just join Proximus or Andromeda!
Danny
I agree with Megabyte. I'm new on trem (less than two month), and today evening I tryed FF on a db@ server. It was a surprise to me, playing as a human. At last the match ended in a draw, but with human base all up, and aliens without OM and eggs. FF forces humans to go out (at least, I went out...). FF doesn't block human camping however, but can resolve many static situation, i.e. 2-3 humans camping in the hall that connect human base with box room in Tremor map. With FF on, this is impossible to do: in or out (three time I entered in box room alone, with TM waiting I-dont-know-what in the hall).
On the other hand, I think that dretch immunity is bad, because it's the same concept applyed to aliens.
I'm sorry for my poor english, i'm italian. Hope someday i could improve it a bit.
Cheers :)
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FF sends me up the wall, I just don't want to use any spread weapons when playing human any more (kinda annoying as Shotgun is probably my favorite weapon) and I just end up sitting watching others die rather than try and help out, just in case my help turns out to be their death..and I'm ending up doing lots of lone runs which are never a good idea as human. On the other side, playing Mara is a nightmare - I may be trying to tackle a human or two..dretch jumps in that I don't even see and 1 second later, dead dretch, -1 to me and me withdrawing just in case.
Most games I'm leaving early cos I'm pissed off at getting TKed or TKing myself - finished 2 games in the last week.
Whether a server is FF or not should be posted in BIG FUCKOFF letters when you're looking at the server info or entering - for me, it ruins the game.
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After playing with FF on, I feel i like it, because make the game harder, and even newbies learn to teamplay more, and avoid firing lucy inside base.,etc. So.. It creates a new, better, gameplay.
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I really like FF, especially against stupid basekillers... Some days ago, I saw one spawning as human (so same team as me), and them directly heading for armoury, buying a luci there, and started to shoot at the reactor. I simply gone into his line of fire near at him, and at the next shot, he tried, there was a nice suicide :D . He does not respawned, he left the game then.
The only thing, I hate at FF are your "teammates": Either, they're standing or running in your line of fire, or they shoot u in your back.
I prefer the last one on servers with teamkill-banning.
Gr33tz, Nemo
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Hmm, yes, we have here various opinions.
Personally, I think that FF isn't good for Tremulous. In Counter-Strike for example, there are good reasons for it: 1) realism 2) gameplay element (not to shoot everything that moves)
But for Trem, these elements aren't in use. You see, Trem doesn't want to be (and isn't) a realistic game (lasers, Aliens and so on). Nor has it the same gameplay elements (many of you don't think about this one).
In Trem, there is a lot more responsibility when dying: You help the enemy team win easier, by helping them to advance to the next Stage, or by supporting the enemy with credits (because you die).
So, if a teammate shoots you, and then you die from a scratch, it causes a bigger problem than in any other game.
Also, FF isn't fair or balanced because of the models: While in Counter-Strike or other FPS games the models are nearly same the size, in Trem the Aliens are smaller than their Human counterparts (except for Tyrants). So it's harder to hit an Alien as an Alien, then to hit another Human player as a Human. Also, consider that Aliens have almost only melee attacks, but Humans can use splash damage weapons (e.g. Flame Thrower, which harms the wielder as well, when not skilled enough) or ranged weaponry, with slow projectiles (Pulse Rifle).
Conclusion: FF is really bad, because it can't be balanced in Trem.
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N.M.I."]Conclusion: FF is really bad, because it can't be balanced in Trem.
Yes it can. I dare to say that it's pretty balanced too.
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N.M.I."]You see, Trem doesn't want to be (and isn't) a realistic game (lasers, Aliens and so on).[/u].
Hmm... Do you want to tell us, that Counter-Strike is a realistic game? Or BF, ET and Unreal Tournament? ;)
:P
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I just played some game with FF ON on a [db@] server and i noticed that Aliens TKed much more than humans (the human team was full of noobs, but they managed to get S3 before us with all the kills we gave them...it was strange to see a BS guy with a Shotgun XD)
The problem occurs when Aliens attack a single human : they are all near the human trying to bite/slash him and a single slash from a Marauder or a Dragoon kill the poor little dretch that was desperatly trying to bite the human.
FF isn t only for Humans...
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It would be better if there was no FF but if you hit your friends you will be punished (your credits are transferred to rest of the team, or the damage you would do on your teammates hits yourself.
it's not funny if "third" persons are affected.
(Since pseudo-realism is NOT or AGAINST our aim, this is the better solution)
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I just played some game with FF ON on a [db@] server and i noticed that Aliens TKed much more than humans (the human team was full of noobs, but they managed to get S3 before us with all the kills we gave them...it was strange to see a BS guy with a Shotgun XD)
The problem occurs when Aliens attack a single human : they are all near the human trying to bite/slash him and a single slash from a Marauder or a Dragoon kill the poor little dretch that was desperatly trying to bite the human.
FF isn t only for Humans...
What is strange about a BS with a shotgun?
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What is strange about a BS with a shotgun?
ACK. I love that gun too ;)
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FF deserves to be on for:
Flamers - despite many people claiming flamers are easy to kill, there's at least 4 decent flamer users on AKKA alone that prove daily that killing them with flamer is NOT easy. When humans have a flamer in the group expect all dretches to die and any brave non dragoons will be seriously crippled. Teammates NEED to get damage from running through flames using them as a kill all shield.
Luci Cannons - Luci spam. nuff said.
Plasma Rifles - Spray and pray. Like flamers as long as plasma rifle users can just hose down an area in plasma no aliens can realistically get near one without a concentrated effort by a team of aliens. Everything else gets turned to swish cheese in short order.
Dragoons - To cut back on the pounce in pounce away one shot one kill S1 bullshit FF for goons wouldn't be a bad thing. Likewise it'd be helpful for clearing stupid grangers and dretches off the floor :)
Turrets - I'd love for turrets to be like gloom turrets. If you're standing in the way of them targetting aliens YOU get mowed down by them first.
Everything else FF deserves to be off (player wise)
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Turrets - I'd love for turrets to be like gloom turrets. If you're standing in the way of them targetting aliens YOU get mowed down by them first.
Would be fun, I was sick of the times I build an optimal defense only to have my teammates fight ( and die ) just in front of them :D
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Again, the game is easily better when both teams have ff on. The only time ff should be off is when begineers that are still learning the game are playing.
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FF should be off generally, since it simply doesnt fit the gameplay. it might work aut with ranged comat like it CS, but tremulous is all about infighting and then you cant differ the targets so easily. I gave the cahingun example in my other thread; you cant use the chaingun anymore the help teammates with dretches since it is more likly that you kill them and not the dretches.
Same applies to several aliens attaking one human. I understand the problem with lucifer spamming but there should be an other solution...
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I voted FF off since there is really no need for it to be on. Shooting structures will still destroy them with FF off so i'm not sure what people are complaining about. Same does for granades as well as any other weapons.
no FF only saves the players, not structures.
The reason I like it off is because hitboxes are not as accurate as the models, you can't shoot over a team mates shoulder without hitting him so defending becomes impossible.
just my $0.02
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FF should be off generally, since it simply doesnt fit the gameplay. it might work aut with ranged comat like it CS, but tremulous is all about infighting and then you cant differ the targets so easily. I gave the cahingun example in my other thread; you cant use the chaingun anymore the help teammates with dretches since it is more likly that you kill them and not the dretches.
Same applies to several aliens attaking one human. I understand the problem with lucifer spamming but there should be an other solution...
Chaingun is awful against dretches anyway.
FF should be on because 2-3 good humans with flamer can protect each other in a terribly efficient way when FF is off.
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Thinking about it off is best when you start but putting it on makes both teams much more aware, dretches will NEED to wallwalk if they don't want to get killed; instead of 3 marauders attack a bs at the same time it they will slash in turn; goons hopefully won't pounce around the map because it kills all lower aliens like dretch and basilisk if it lands on them. Humans will need to keep the aliens at a distance through teamwork; think about when to use flamethrowers and lucifers.
It adds another level I prefer when I'm playing with skilled players. Unskilled players benefit from putting it off but if there will ever be a ladder, tournament or simply elite game i'd say put it on for sure.
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I've seen couple of turret killing humans
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FF should be on, as it adds realism and makes players think before they do something. For the chaingun reason, they're designed to be supported by other players with more precise weapons, not to shoot small aliens off your teammates.
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I voted yes, because it really irritates me when humans hit each other with lucifers all day long and nothing happens.
However, I will say that I think FF discourages teamwork if anything. I know on most maps, I always travel with at least 1 other person when I am human. However, this becomes a pain with FF, because if an alien gets between you, you either hold your fire to avoid killing someone or you shoot away and kill the alien and your friend. I end up just going solo to avoid the conflict.
Also, FF pisses me off as aliens. pounce should never hit a friendly player. also, with marauder I tend to jump around and hold down the slash button while attacking, and I have accidently killed dretches and basilisks doing that.
You shouldn't be able to shoot an alien off your teammate with a chaingun. And you shouldn't be able to kill 4 aliens at once with a grenade but not hurt the person standing right in the middle. FF is good, and encourages more strategic and thought out gameplay, but it is really irritating when implemented poorly (aliens).
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I don't know why you vote for FF on.
Tremulous isn't an FPS like any others, where you die, and say 'Oh well, our team is now smaller, and the foe earned a frag'.
When you die in Trem, you help the other team with one frag, ok, but you help them to reach a Stage earlier. Also, you help the player who killed you with credits/evo points.
My opinion is that too many players don't give a thought about how dying affects their and the enemy's team's chances and success for winning. It's a great responsibility.
So if you buy a Luci and a BS for example, and a kind teammate shoots you in the back (no matter if it was an accident or not), then you die from a Dretchbite. You lose your equ. and money, you weaken your team (because you won't have money for another armor or a weapon for example, so you are an easy kill), give the Dretch an evo. point, give their team a boost to reach the next Stage, so you made their team stronger.
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Doesn't really matter in the end, imho. With FF on you're lucky to make it out of the human base (as a human) with all those luci-spammers. With FF off you can count on some luci-spamming teammate to catapult you to really nasty places you really don't want to be in. Aliens seem to have similar problems - instead of blocking each other they now seem to kill each other accidentally.
I did vote for FF being on, though, as it gave me a reason to switch to the mass driver as mainstay weapon 8)
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For humans, FF off encourages spam. We all know how much fun the spam is for aliens.
For aliens, FF on discourages teamwork. Only safe attack is marauder zap, it can't hit a teammate. I've been teamkilled a lot by dragoons, and barbs are simply awful. Booster becomes even worse; now it not only doesn't have a purpose, but causes more teamkills. For the first time I've seen dragoons teamkilled by grangers.
Basilisks are totally screwed once FF is on.
I think FF should be on only for bases, lucifer, grenades, flamer, pulse rifle. Spam/supression fire is simply too powerful, and encourages camping.Aliens can't spam, so it should be off for them.