Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Kryota on February 11, 2008, 03:07:47 am
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From what I understand, it would be VERY hard to put in tremulous, but I just wanna know what everyone else thinks about it. What if the entire environment in tremulous could be destroyed? What I'm talking about is explosions leaving dents in walls, smashing through thin walls, leaving alcoves for sneaky aliens to hide in, etc... I always liked how the environments in Scorched Earth and Worms could be destroyed, and even if it would be much harder in a 3d environment (impossible for trem's engine?) and making it look good would be even harder, I think it would be nice if a few servers did it... So what does everyone else think about it?
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From what I know, graphical effects that look like dents might be possible. I doubt actual 3d dents would be.
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No.
No.No.No.
you could just blast a hole straight to the enemy base! (works well in worms, would entirely ruin trem)
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that and there are legal issues with it even if someone had the time to implement it.
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I would like this a lot, but I doubt it is possible, without a lot of changes of the engine etc.
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It would be very nice. But not really possible AFAIK. Scorch marks we already have (Blood stains would be good :P).
Oh and Worms 4 FTW :)
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red faction did it, and i really miss that from newer games. altough trem weapons are not the weapons of phisical destruction, so i guess only grenades could ruin objects, maximum the luci, but as it is an energy weapon, it desn't fits so much. but it could blow barrels and boxes away, it would be nice.
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Absolutely not.
func_destructible may be a nice touch here and there but this will destroy the game. The reason for having different maps is that Tremulous can be played in different settings and not on the same large heap of rubble.
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Also, Red Faction was a really poor excuse for a game, since the 'revolutionary' GeoMod tech only really was used in the first few maps, later on the in the game you constantly ran into magical indestructible walls, merely because being able to destroy everything completely kills and kind of game-/map-flow there might be.
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blowing a hole into the wall gave a huge boost to game experience as it gave weight to the weapons. nowadays i shoot with a rocket launcher, and it is only destroying some watermelons and throwing away beer cans.
i doN'T expect "digging" by it, just some symbolic stuffs.
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Whoah, I'm not talking about tunneling to the enemy base, (although I can imagine aliens doing that :D) I'm just talking about little dents in the walls--maybe it could be set in maps how delicate different sections of the maps are? Anyways, nothing as destructive as Scorched Earth, just something to make the map look trashed :P
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The "dents" you speak of would quickly cause the game to slow down. I mean, the Rifle shoots all 30 rounds within 5 seconds. That's 30 dents you have to have the engine calculate along with everyone else's shots. The best way to do it(and currently Tremulous doesn't have the functionality), is to utilize a bump map and normal map in the bullet collision decal and use Parallax Occlusion(or Relief if you want better accuracy) bump mapping so it simulates depth. An example of this method is F.E.A.R.
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blowing a hole into the wall gave a huge boost to game experience as it gave weight to the weapons. nowadays i shoot with a rocket launcher, and it is only destroying some watermelons and throwing away beer cans.
i doN'T expect "digging" by it, just some symbolic stuffs.
How did it give a boost to the game experience if said blowing holes in walls was only present in a small part of the game? Most of Red Faction's maps were made up of indestructible walls, completely negating their 'revolutionary' GeoMod engine.
Whoah, I'm not talking about tunneling to the enemy base, (although I can imagine aliens doing that :D) I'm just talking about little dents in the walls--maybe it could be set in maps how delicate different sections of the maps are? Anyways, nothing as destructive as Scorched Earth, just something to make the map look trashed :P
Dents could be done with some form of decals, although they would be cosmetic, not and not actual dents, with depth and all. Still, I cannot really see how this improves Tremulous.
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Its already here, but no Tremulous maps decided to utilize this feature.
By the way, every destructible item has to be included by hand.
I'm not so sure on the amount of damage these can take, either.
It would be nice, though, if someone did include it.
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I think the phrase "destructible environments" is becoming more and more overrated. To be honest, I like destructible environments as much as the next guy, but unfortunately it's not improving at the rate many other aspects are. To me, it's becoming rather boring really, and overused. Yet the hard part is, do you just decide you don't want it in? I'd say no to that.
I think the right way to put it is that developers making destructible environments look better, but not making the process of destroying the said environment that much more fun.
As for Tremulous and destructible environments, I don't think that it could be implemented very cleanly at all considering the engine's capabilities.
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The question is not if destructible environments in games are cool, but if they are cool in Tremulous, which I think is not the case.
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Exactly. I love blowing stuff up as much as the next gamer, but blowing random things up in Tremulous doesn't really add anything to the gameplay, and could only serve to bog down the engine.
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you guys all talk about how it would slow the game down... have you ever thought of it being a frickin' graphics option? :-\
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you guys all talk about how it would slow the game down... have you ever thought of it being a frickin' graphics option? :-\
You must be new here.
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He's been around the forums since: January 03, 2007, 10:53:38 AM
Around Tremulous for quite a while longer.
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It was a joke.
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ROFL FUNNY JOKE
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Exactly. I love blowing stuff up as much as the next gamer, but blowing random things up in Tremulous doesn't really add anything to the gameplay, and could only serve to bog down the engine.
If it was something like the oil barrels in Worms3D then it would be cool
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ROFL WAHTS A JOKE?!?
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Exactly. I love blowing stuff up as much as the next gamer, but blowing random things up in Tremulous doesn't really add anything to the gameplay, and could only serve to bog down the engine.
If it was something like the oil barrels in Worms3D then it would be cool
Explodable barrels are perfectly possible in Tremulous.
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Where the hell (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4715177930236289844&q=deus+ex&total=1615&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3) is that pile of crates? Now, let's see: nightstick or rocket launcher?
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:D NOT WITH THE QUAKE 3 engine but go buy l battlefield bad company's frostbite engine and will use it. till then you will have to stick with not being able to kick around a box. i know its hard but we all have to sacrifice something :'(
[One :D is enough, thank you -Paradox]
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I support more exploding barrels and boxes in Trem maps.
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Exploding barrels (for those with ranged weapons) - could be two kinds, one filled with Alien acid, and one filled with Human explosives
Destructible crates (for those with melee weapons) - could be several sizes, with larger ones being harder to destroy
Exploding barrels: Hrm, this seems to favor Humans, but maybe they should be in the default Human bases in maps where they are used to balance this? Very few Alien classes would be able to detonate them from afar (+goon, +mara?, +granger?, maybe 1.1 rants) without dying, but barrel jumping might be cool. This idea rates a "Hrm". :-\ (Sounds cool, could easily get annoying, seems unbalanced, maybe the lid could provide a safe haven for the Alien detonator, or maybe dretches could use them for suicide runs inside Human base, what would their "hit points" be?).
Destructible crates: Seems useless, but if foe were hiding behind a nest of destructible crates, you could slash/shoot your way in. Also, some areas of map would be made inaccessible to certain classes, if, say, a large pile of crates were destroyed (although it would suck if that were the only way to play a certain map, it could add enough depth to somewhat counter the Human advantage - since they have mostly ranged weapons - if Exploding Barrels are added; since Humans would be more affected than Aliens by accessibility issues). Could you push crates around with this engine? You can sure touch and manipulate a lot of artifacts in RtCW, so maybe. Would you want to? It might make the game a little too Deus Ex-like. "Hey, push that crate over here so I can climb up into that open air-vent!"
I like the idea of Human barrels in Human areas (like a grenade going off), Alien barrels in Alien areas (acid splash damage), and destructible crates of various sizes in neutral areas (default, that is, at mapstart). But maybe only if put there by the mapper, or as a layout/devmap kind of tweak for interested server ops/admins. I wouldn't like to see them spread willy-nilly over the existing maps.
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See player1, these are exactly the wild and stupid ideas I refer to so much.
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Explodable barrels are perfectly possible in Tremulous.
See player1, these are exactly the wild and stupid ideas I refer to so much.
Read more closely. You said it was possible. I said it would be probably problematic. Atom Eve said she supported explodable barrels and crates. I said explodable barrels might be cool, with several caveats, but I would prefer destructible crates to explodable crates, because Aliens would suffer from so many exploding items, due to the overwhelming ranged weapon superiority of the Human team. I also said that implementation would be tough, and that I don't support just making these items available without some thought behind them. Yes, wild and stupid ideas (one of which is your wild and stupid idea). Do you actually read the posts, or is the bold print fucking with your brain?
edit'd to close the parentheses
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Explodable barrels is something completely different from what you suggested. Why do you have to overcomplicate things for no reason? Tremulous is perfectly able to make exploding barrels and crates without it requires any kind of crazy ideas, or even worse, coding. Just keep it simple, that is usually what works the best;)
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No, it's not. You said, "Hey exploding barrels are possible." I said cool, how about two different types, with different damage effects? Please stop being so general, vague, and condescending. Exploding crates is not very different from destructible crates, they're just exploding crates which don't deal damage. Sheesh. Read the post, please. Parse it sentence by sentence, not just in your sweepingly insulting manner. Besides, who the hell is overcomplicating things? We're just tossing out ideas, most of which I severely qualified. So, destructible crates is wild and stupid, but exploding barrels are not? Having them placed in bases is wild and stupid? Having them placed by mappers, and not just every kid with a ckit, is wild and stupid? Pointing out that exploding barrels seems to be a Human advantage is wild and stupid?
If anyone is being either wild or stupid here, sir, it is you.
Wow, destructible crates, what a wild and crazy idea, practically unheard of in the annals of gaming. ::)
Gee, changing a damage animation, how utterly undoable. ::)
Oh my God, someone will have to code this, stop the freaking presses. ::)
To quote your hero, Voltaire: I am in the smallest room in my house. I have your letter before me. Soon, it will be behind me...
(http://www.duvekot.ca/eliane/archives/Voltaire.jpg)
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You don't seem to realize my point, or better said, you still don't. Like so many people who don't think, you opt ideas that will most likely never get executed. I merely say that exploding barrels are possible, you come up with all kinds of crazy ideas that even my 5 year old nephew would smirk about. I'm merely trying to explain to you that making things overcomplicated is a good chance of the things staying in the realm of ideas, instead of actually being used. You are most likely not going to write code, nor are you going to make maps, so that leaves you with just your idea, or better said, that leaves you and a host of other people with their great ideas, while I rather think about things that can actually be done without it requiring extra code that nobody can be arsed to write or implement into Tremulous, merely because it serves no real purpose.
If you really don't get this, I won't try to explain it to you no more, and leave you at posting your fantastic ideas that will never be implemented. I don't really mind either way.
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exploadables would be good in objective maps. They might fuck up gameplay in normal maps.
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True. I am not going to code this or anything else. I am not going to map. Literally dozens of silly ideas are posted here every day. I like to discuss various possibilities. What crazy ideas? Different damage animations? Destructible crates? Please stop spewing your general dislike of the world-at-large at me. Did I say that anyone must make these things? I also merely am discussing them, as are you. Exploding barrels. Wow, what a wild and crazy idea. Oh wait, that's your idea. Well, I hope you are going to immediately implement it, since we can't just talk about it; that would be a complete waste of time. But wait, you brought it up. Nice trollification, and again, the surly, insulting manner, denigrating anyone who would dare to differ with you, and heaping all your distatse for non-coders on me specifically. Please don't try to explain anything to me no more, for I fear your argument is with someone else entirely.
If you really don't mind either way, you can go ahead and shut the fuck up now, tough guy.
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Back to the original idea - I just started thinking about what would happen on those servers full of luci spammers, and I actually lol'd. I can just imagine a giant hole straight through the center of ATCS.
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@player1: Don't you think this forum is already filled enough with ideas nobody will ever execute? Wouldn't it be wiser to actually opt ideas that might get executed? It's very easy to come up with ideas that will never be done, it's much harder to come with ideas that can actually be done. Try to do the latter, since it's much smarter.
Exploding barrels are not a wild and crazy idea, ever since Quake's first mission pack you could make brushes destructible, basically meaning you can also make destructible barrels/crates. This is available, working flawlessly and therefore usable, whereas your idea is just that, an idea, and we already have enough of those.
Next.
[PS] I'm not a coder.
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exploding barrel + nade + lucijump ---> new term in tremulous: orbit camper
pushing the stuffs would be strange but interesting, i can imagine human commandos collecting all the barrels on the map and pushing them towards om... theoretically you could probably lift up barrels by a level also with adv grangers if they would fall upon you first pushed down by another teammate.
exploding +1, pushing -1 maybe.
Lava why are you still trying constantly to tell poor player1 what to write and what to think? :-D
we are not instantly developing the game, just discussing. and don't tell me that noone was ever thinking about exploding items in trem in the past 6 years :-D if this idea came up right now at the first time, then trem instantly needs your nephew in the dev team.
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Actually exploding brushes wouldnt be that hard to code in. It needs a fix for the health key leaving 1 spawn in limbo, and just set a NO_DRAW NO_IMPACT flags to the brush when it has been destroyed. In addition a trigger upon hurt/destruction so that mapper will be able to spawn his particle effects in the right time.
Ill look into it, since it is quite close to the AMP patch I am working on.
Pushable objects is a piece of cake as well (all code is there, pushable turrets are a 5 second code modification and a few months of debugging)
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You said it, pal: you can also make destructible crates.
Thanks.
Apology accepted.
Of course, no one has ever had destructible items in a Quake 3 based game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0nzAv_1jp4). ::)
So, now which of my ideas was a wild and stupid suggestion that can't possibly get made?
P.S. Please actually read the posts, as opposed to just trying to up your daily flame count.
P.P.S. i'm not a coder
NFS, it shows, everytime you talk about it, like it's some holy, arcane task that's beyond the pale for any normal human, but maybe the god-like devs will deign to do it for us if only we don't anger them with silly suggestions. ::)
Next.
@Opti: yeah, maybe i was a little vague for people who are reading this who don't primarily speak English, but i don't actually think pushing crates would be a great idea; that's why that post had so many question marks and :-\ "Hrm" smileys: it was a thinking-out-loud post, generated by Lava's suggestion and Atom Eve's response, in which she didn't specify whether or not she meant exploding boxes, which just made me think about regular old wooden crates that you can smash/slash/shoot/burn (my comment was that it would be a little too much like DX to actually push them around, but becuz i was joking around, maybe that wasn't really clear)
@Troy: :D
edit'd to smile @ Troy
also, if anyone wants to refer to my first (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7370.msg110854#msg110854) post in this thread, you'll know i don't take the whole idea very seriously (or maybe that was too subtle for our foreign readers or those who've never played Deus Ex)
finally, although Lava likes to act like he doesn't know better, i'm the guy who long ago said that Tremulous is perfect just as it is, and needs no changes whatsoever (nice troll though)
#10 (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=6449.0)
but just like Voltaire was willing to defend to the death your right to say things he didn't believe in, i still like discussing silly ideas that i hope never get added to Trem cuz i love it just like it is right now
Cheers!
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I give up.
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As well you should.
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As well you should.
After consulting with some other people, I decided this was the best thing to do, since energy spent on you is energy spent on nothing.
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So many people would be extremely happy with this cathegory :-D
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I liked this idea when it just involved barrels going BOOM!
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I liked this idea when it just involved barrels going BOOM!
But that's an idea that can actually be executed without any extra work, so it's not cool.
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lol lava, just take a look of player1's so called (by you) ideas that you noobed down. actually he only said that crates could be in different size, and there could be human kind explosions and another one where not kinda gas but acid explodes. like human and alien buildings, if its hard to imagine at the first sight... he mentioned pushing objects also okay, maybe that's over the capacity, but you argued him on a full page and gave up while you were talking about the same idea.
if barrels can blow up, why it is so übercomplicated for crates? and damaging or not...
pure wasting of energy ^^
:-D
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forums are fun
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It's about adding an acid spray for aliens, it about spending 20 lines of text of something that is just that, an exploding crate or barrel, nothing more, nothing less. I can add exploding crates and barrel to my supposed maps this instant, I cannot do so with crates or barrels that explode into an acid blurb, since that requires coding. I merely made a futile attempt to pull player1 into reality.
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"but he can be smart if he trolls out his anger first, it just needs an estimated one and a half page of fighting, a locked thread and a couple fake troll threads to cool the situation down."
-as i said earlier and here you go: after nearly one and a half page here is the smartformation.
hey, player one, come back, the answer finally arrived! :-D
he is probably not coder nor mapper. don't blame us for not being any of them. nobody demanded anything, especially from you, iT's just imagination, you know. but sometimes, as in the case of Hovels, somebody comes and does the idea. ofc its not insurance against total failures or unbalancing issues, but still has the possibility to be useful, or simply being fun.
[EDIT during the next 2 posts]:
anyway theese crates/barrels would be the best i guess if they would be 0 build point buildables while constructing layouts (only) so with every layout they could be different on the same map, or later we can use them on older maps layouts to make them spicy.
i guess at this case you can just copy some codes of existing buildables and change some stuffs to create a "dumb" structure, but it still explodes like normal structures: damaging in acidic or explosive style.
while probably i'm totally wrong, i think the leayoutedit-style crates would be nice, as it is more creative than always having the same maps.
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I should have sticked with my 'I give up' post.
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Stuck.
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I should have sticked with my 'I give up' post.
Yeah. Quit while you're behind.
Your entire method of argument is so infantile, flawed, obtuse, obscure, vague, general, and personally insulting, that you should give up. It took you six or seven additional posts to finally say that the acid splash damage idea would be harder to implement than the exploding barrel idea. No way, really? Of course, some twelve year-old with time on his hands could make this happen, but because it doesn't exist right now, it must be a wild surmise or a stupid suggestion. I'm just glad you weren't around when fire was discovered. "What the hell do we need that stuff for? Next you people will be clamoring for the wheel!"
By the way, I'm glad that you needed to consult with others to decide to stop arguing, but then chose to ignore their sage advice. Me, I make my own decisions. ::) :-* :P :laugh:
P.S. Go spend your time on something!
I liked this idea when it just involved barrels going BOOM!
But you included crates in your reply, without specifying their explodability/destructibilty. You just said boxes, which one could assume to mean exploding boxes, or could assume to mean just regular old destructible crates. Besides, having them go "SPLOOSH!" could also be pretty funny. Anyway, apparently you can have your exploding barrels right now, today, this minute. Maybe Lava will make you one. Of course, after it goes BOOM, you'll need another one...
Stuck.
Yes, he is. Quite stuck.
edit'd to reply to Atom Eve and Taiyo as well and avoid the dreaded double-post
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Since when does consulting other people mean that you do not make your own decisions?
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Just go back to giving up, it suits you better. By the way, if that's the only aspect of my post you can argue with, then you really have lost.
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I liked this idea when it just involved barrels going BOOM!
But you included crates in your reply, without specifying their explodability/destructibilty. You just said boxes, which one could assume to mean exploding boxes, or could assume to mean just regular old destructible crates. Besides, having them go "SPLOOSH!" could also be pretty funny. Anyway, apparently you can have your exploding barrels right now, today, this minute. Maybe Lava will make you one. Of course, after it goes BOOM, you'll need another one...
You're reading far too deeply into my reply. I like the idea of mappers including destructable barrels and crates in their maps, if only for the fun of having something that you can destroy. Hardcoding support for "acid" barrels that only hurt humans and explodable barrels that only hurt aliens into the client, though? That seems like it's going a little overboard.
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Apparently exploding barrels are already available, so that (according to Lava) doesn't require any coding. No one said they would harm only Aliens (although acid barrels would probably harm only Humans, that is true). Also, if you read my post, I come down on the side of having mappers include them in maps, not just having them scattered willy-nilly across the existing maps. Lastly, exploding and destructible are two different things. Please do not use the two terms interchangeably. And, yeah, if you view my first post in this thread, you'll see that I think the entire idea of destructible environments is a bit overboard. But as long as we're talking about silly ideas, let's toss out a few silly suggestions, and then separate from the dross that which is sublime. Thanks for posting a considered reply, and not referring to your five year-old nephew, other people you consulted, or any other silliness that doesn't add to the discussion at hand.
Cheers!
P.S. No one has yet addressed the issue of exploding items (which can be detonated from afar) being a possible Human advantage (since they use mostly ranged weapons).
edit'd for postscriptage
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Just go back to giving up, it suits you better. By the way, if that's the only aspect of my post you can argue with, then you really have lost.
Replying to the rest of your post would be to acknowledge you, which I won't do.
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You just did. :) ;) :D ;D :o 8) ::) :P :-* :laugh:
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Re: Destructible Environments:
Being able to blast holes between arbitrary areas of the map is almost certainly impractical as this requires fundamental changes to the way that Q3 rendering works - remember what the vis stage of map compilation is for. Surfaces that deform (within strict bounds) when damaged are possible but will require significant coding to implement.
What I would really like as a mapper is to be able to define surfaces in terms of how they react to being shot at with the various weapons in Tremulous. For example, shooting bullets at sand does not leave black marks, emit a ricochet sound or create flying sparks. Instead, a small pit is left with a small cloud of dust (assuming that the sand is dry) with a quiet "thump" sound.
I've just played the original Half-Life again, and the way in which the different materials react to being smacked with a crowbar adds significantly more depth to the environments in the game than could be achieved with just the graphics engine alone. How difficault would it be to allow shaders like this?
// mymap.shader
mymap/alienflesh
{
impactsound splat.wav
stepsound squish.wav
impact_ps mymap/alienblood
impact_mark mymap/alien_wound
{
map mymap/alienflesh.jpg
etc...
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In short, Q3 support for these ONLY if they are detail brushes as well.
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Re: Destructible Environments:
Being able to blast holes between arbitrary areas of the map is almost certainly impractical as this requires fundamental changes to the way that Q3 rendering works - remember what the vis stage of map compilation is for. Surfaces that deform (within strict bounds) when damaged are possible but will require significant coding to implement.
What I would really like as a mapper is to be able to define surfaces in terms of how they react to being shot at with the various weapons in Tremulous. For example, shooting bullets at sand does not leave black marks, emit a ricochet sound or create flying sparks. Instead, a small pit is left with a small cloud of dust (assuming that the sand is dry) with a quiet "thump" sound.
I've just played the original Half-Life again, and the way in which the different materials react to being smacked with a crowbar adds significantly more depth to the environments in the game than could be achieved with just the graphics engine alone. How difficault would it be to allow shaders like this?
// mymap.shader
mymap/alienflesh
{
impactsound splat.wav
stepsound squish.wav
impact_ps mymap/alienblood
impact_mark mymap/alien_wound
{
map mymap/alienflesh.jpg
etc...
This will require some client-side modification, since the events which are being sent to the player are list-based and cannot be changed only on the server side.
On the other hand. I have tried this, and found that you can do a neat trick, hooking onto the surfaceparms, and it WILL be possible to spawn a particle system in the place where the entity hit the surface, AND produce the sounds, given that the map pk3 has them. Sadly, now I am completely lost of what should I do first...
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@Troy: What's on your to-do list? And, are you saying you think that thing Taiyo said is really doable?
@techhead: I must resort to google*, but I think I follow that.
@Taiyo: That is a really cool idea. That is a really cool idea. That would deepen gameplay without creating major balance issues.
But, hey fellas, please don't talk about ideas or coding here. It only makes Lava anxious and cranky, and he'll start yelling at me again.
@Lava: Perhaps, you sir, are concerned with that which is "merely possible". What you don't seem to be addressing is how it would affect gameplay, and why it hasn't achieved wider usage, if it is "merely possible". Many things are possible in Tremulous: I've seen screenies of CTF in ATCS with Lara Croft and a giant Q3a eyeball. It's not about what's "merely possible". It's about editing and balance. There are lots of cool maps on empty servers which never get played which demonstrate the emptiness of expression in only doing that which is "merely possible". Has adding exploding barrels to any of your maps made anyone want to play them and if so, were there any balance issues involved? Or is this just a major trollfest, and your "merely possible" suggestion got exactly what it deserved, a whole steaming pile of n00bly suggestions shoved down its wild, stupid throat? "OMFG, he suggested crates! :o Stone the unbeliever!" ::)
I'm sure glad you didn't work at the Wright Brothers bike shop. "Why should a man fly when he can pedal?" :P
But now, the do-ers have arrived. Carry on, gentlemen, I leave you to your decaling experiments.
P.S. So pushable, destructible crates really are possible? Maybe they'll be useful to balance the exploding barrels. :laugh:
Cheers! ;) :-* ;D
your anguish sustains me
*A detail brush is a type of brush that does not block the -VIS stage of the compiler. In short, any brush that does not provide structure/seal to a room, and merely is there to detail the room, should be made a detail brush [ctrl + M]
hrm, sounds a lot like a barrel or a crate
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I really like Taiyo's idea. Modifiable weapon impact sounds could add a lot to the feel of a map without seeming to require a hugely complex implementation. I know that I could personally really use something like this in my maps.
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Uh... What I can definitely say at this moment is :
1) Spawning a particle effect at the location of the impact is 95% doable on the server-side only. It can also be weapon-dependant, I can even spawn particles from the player itself (from his feet).
2) Making a custom step sounds might require client-side modification, I will look into that when I will have time. (similar to hit-sounds).
But generally : server can send pretty much ANY command to client, hence in the very end it might end up in a hack-like implementation for the server-side.
@ player1 Just a few big ones :
subnet bans
Anti-decon bot release
Hovelports release
AMP 0.2 release
Debugging the server
ETQW jetpacks test/code
etc.
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Troy, would it be possible to place exploding objects in layoutedit-mode to make variations to the same map with different layouts? <.< like 0Bp standard dumb buildables what can only explode and are not affected by any other buildings or actions.
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@Troy: I'd be interested to hear your comments about these silly ideas - medals (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7309.0) & destruction icons (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7329.0) for the scoreboard.
@Opti: So you could make different layouts with explodable items in different, unknown locations each time a map is played? How about having them randomly placed so even the op/admin doesn't know where they are until they are spotted/detonated? I think that would be more fair.
Also, what do you guys think about balance with explodables, since the Humans have more ranged weapons (generally speaking)?
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yup, the distance weapon stuff is on humans side, most aliens would be only able to do kamikazee explosions, but playing with friendly fire could be also interesting. and well if you explode something from a distance, it's just... not there anymore. doN't type near risky places, that's all :-)
at the same time, i think random placing could result unexpectedly unlucky situations, like a barrel of gasoline inside a base or blocking a tunnel where dretches/s1 grangers can't go till it's exploded (i think we can agree that S1 grangers and dretches shouldn't be able to destroy them as it would be suicide for them and ofc no attack button).
placing them creatively can be more fun i beleive, like making players to achieve certain heights that would be otherwise require a jetpack or wallcrawling (risky as they can explode under you).
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But isn't it unfair for one player/team/clan/clique to know where they are? Someone has to place them in layout mode. That person should then sit out the match, unless and until the explodables are detonated (assuming he doesn't just PM his friends about the "secret" location).
Besides just not being there anymore after they are detonated, don't they deal damage? And not walking around them is great, if you know where they are. Can the Alien team place some, too? Or just a ckit in layout/dev mode? Seems unfair/unbalanced. That's why I suggested having a few of each in each base at mapstart: maybe the Humans can destroy the Alien base quickly by detonating them from afar, but one good basi/mara/goon suicide could take out the Human base pretty quickly, too. If they were just in neutral areas, they would just be a novelty, almost not worth doing (one minor explosion nobody else sees in an hour-long game?).
Also, they are not prox mines. Simply walking into one would not detonate it, so I guess you are right that dretches and basic grangers would be stuck, but they are only barrels - they would only block a pretty small opening (like a vent, but not a Human-sized doorway). Once they are detonated, blockage removed.
Yes, random placement would have some unplayable/unfair/it-sucks-to-be-you moments, but I'd rather have the server do it than trust the other team (I don't - because they are the enemy, and want to win, no matter how much they swear they are being fair).
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I'm not thinking about !layout edit before every game :-D
when server owners are making the layouts for their servers, they could build up the scene as they want, that's all. a small creativity-candy for everyone :-)
so Lava does not have to place them when creating a new map - this way he can avoid a serious headache easily.
also, without them, the map would be still 100%. it would be just some spice.
for example, I'd place some of theese near known secondary base locations, so human builders could save themselves during moving by blowing up crates with blasters.
and i guess theese exploding stuffs would have some recogniseable look to be obvious that they can damage your health srsly. (e.g. Quake2 exploding crates's look)
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I'm not thinking about !layout edit before every game :-D
That's good. Realize that some people would use them like that, stopping every match to spend ten minutes -tee-hee - hiding barrels that only they know about.
when server owners are making the layouts for their servers, they could build up the scene as they want, that's all. a small creativity-candy for everyone :-)
Hopefully they will do several versions of each map, otherwise after a few playthroughs, the exploding barrels will quickly get old, boring and been-there/done-that.
so a mapper does not have to place them when creating a new map - this way he can avoid a serious headache easily.
They should either be integrated into the map by the mapper as part of its overall design, or as you say, some way should be provided to scatter them about the map in a new and random pattern at each mapstart.
also, without them, the map would be still 100%. it would be just some spice.
Either they should be designed as an integral part of the map, or the map should be entirely playable without them even being there.
for example, I'd place some of theese near known secondary base locations, so human builders could save themselves during moving by blowing up crates with blasters.
I like that idea; although it has a few tactical drawbacks, it would make moving more fun, but also very risky. Plus you still haven't given the Aliens anything. Would granger spit or goon barbs detonate the barrels, also?
and i guess theese exploding stuffs would have some recogniseable look to be obvious that they can damage your health srsly. (e.g. Quake2 exploding crates's look)
Yeah, they definitely need to have some label, no matter how worn, obscured, or tattered, that identifies them as different from the innocuous barrels and/or crates.
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Yeah... Humans clearly need 10 sec buildable barrels that blink between orange and invisible then give *beep beep* sound and explode when alien is close enough. Right?
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Yeah... Humans clearly need 10 sec buildable barrels that blink between orange and invisible then give *beep beep* sound and explode when alien is close enough. Right?
not for Humans only
10 sec?
buildable?
blink btw orange and invisible?
beep-beep sound?
explode when alien is close enough?
I think you may be exercising a bit of hyperbole there my friend.
No, clearly Humans do NOT need something like this, which is why we are talking about how this might fairly be integrated into Tremulous.
Actually, they wouldn't be buildable, or have proximity detection, and I've been saying from my second post in this thread that explodables would seem to convey a huge Human advantage, and that Aliens would need something to balance this.
Of course, prox mines already got made, and I didn't hear anyone screaming about balance issues there. Maybe something is getting lost in translation.
I know you're just being sarcastic, whitebear, but read the entire thread. The last thing I want is exploding barrels to be a huge Human advantage (which is why they should be randomly placed by the server).
Having some sort of DANGER! decal wouldn't hurt too much, but they wouldn't be conceived of as a Human asset (although, as I've said now about nine times, they would be more advantageous to Humans, who can detonate them from afar).
Personally I think the idea is little more than a novelty, which will be greeted with cries of "cheap", "cheat" and "lame", unless used sparingly, wisely and with style and restraint. But stuff that goes BOOM! is always going to add a little excitement for the average gamer.
I hope I've made my thoughts a bit clearer. This is a silly idea, and we're just seeing how it would play out, and if implemented, what might be needed to balance it. It exists, so how could it most appropriately be utilized?
:) ;) :D ;D 8) :laugh:
Cheers!
edit'd to increase comprehensibility for those who might be confused or like to exaggerate
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I've got nothing against the barrels as long as they are for mappers to place. I wouldn't have anything against Ion cannon as long as it's there as long as mapping is required.
Reason being that proper mapping could balance them.
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They should either be integrated into the map by the mapper as part of its overall design, or as you say, some way should be provided to scatter them about the map in a new and random pattern at each mapstart.
Either they should be designed as an integral part of the map, or the map should be entirely playable without them even being there.
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Just skimmed through this topic a bit, and I caught the 0bp build-ables comment. This game me an idea..
What about a third team, let's call them gaia. They're unplayable, and their only purpose is to supply destructible objects placeable in layout and GTKRadiant? You could have simple objects, such as boxes from Tremor, and Niveus. Computer consoles from Nexus6. Various heights and sizes for walls and similar objects, perhaps even planks or bridges that could be put over a gap. Objects like this could be just for eye-candy in some maps, but they could also serve as game play altering aspects of others.
Perhaps it could introduce a subtle objective system. The humans have to get across the bridge to their new base spot before it's destroyed. Humans have to get a base up before the boxes blocking the alien's path is destroyed. These objectives wouldn't need any further coding, they'd simply be common knowledge for map veterans, just the same as common base moves and times are to most of us older players.
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I think I've suggested something extremely similar in past.
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1) Spawning a particle effect at the location of the impact is 95% doable on the server-side only. It can also be weapon-dependant, I can even spawn particles from the player itself (from his feet).
This is done. I have managed to override the default event of the weapon hitting a wall and spawn my own partcle system there.
The only thing I need is : How do you want it to work?
Meaning, how you want to work with it? My thought is to have Surface param with string : Targ_NAME where the NAME is the particle system which will be spawned upon the bullet collision. But this does not really fix the problem of multiple weapons having different effects on the same surface. Targ_Weapon_Name is a bit too overcomplicated. Any suggestions are welcome, since now its just a matter of polishing the code and making a proper user input.
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On the "gaia" team, I suggested at one point a robot factory that churns out (stupid) little robots when it is disturbed. Once produced, these annoying drones will attack aliens and humans indiscriminately.
Nonetheless, my idea got mixed reviews, although it was probably the most feasible and realistic idea for a third race ever created.
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Back then we had no genius AI coder Amine to code us bots.
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Just skimmed through this topic a bit, and I caught the 0bp build-ables comment. This game me an idea..
What about a third team, let's call them gaia. They're unplayable, and their only purpose is to supply destructible objects placeable in layout and GTKRadiant? You could have simple objects, such as boxes from Tremor, and Niveus. Computer consoles from Nexus6. Various heights and sizes for walls and similar objects, perhaps even planks or bridges that could be put over a gap. Objects like this could be just for eye-candy in some maps, but they could also serve as game play altering aspects of others.
Perhaps it could introduce a subtle objective system. The humans have to get across the bridge to their new base spot before it's destroyed. Humans have to get a base up before the boxes blocking the alien's path is destroyed. These objectives wouldn't need any further coding, they'd simply be common knowledge for map veterans, just the same as common base moves and times are to most of us older players.
something like this could be part of sinle player maybe
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On the "gaia" team, I suggested at one point a robot factory that churns out (stupid) little robots when it is disturbed. Once produced, these annoying drones will attack aliens and humans indiscriminately.
Nonetheless, my idea got mixed reviews, although it was probably the most feasible and realistic idea for a third race ever created.
I loved that idea. Let's revive it! Thread necro, here I come!
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Gaia could have many uses. The sentinel creating factory, (in)discriminatory defenses (perhaps organic weapons that attack only humans, sentry turrets that attack only aliens, or some other form of defense that attacks both species), destructible barrels, computers, boxes, "gibbable" corpses, et cetera, could all be made possible by the implementation of a non-player team. I doubt anything like this would make it into an official release while it's just taking off, but who knows, perhaps a mod could become popular and the devs'd get hooked on the idea.
-p.s....
Gaia could have some structures that give rewards when destroyed, such as a boost of cash or build points. Perhaps they could also speed up staging by removing a few kills. Gaia is open to any NPC build-ables, as they can be discriminatory or in-discriminatory, and since they are in no way affected by human players, they needn't follow any particular theme or purpose. They're neither here, nor there.
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this is turning to be quite interesting, cool :-)
lets brainstorm some, i'd like to be inspired to make concept art :-)
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Yay, concept art for the barrel!
(http://www.vogelzang.com/images/BarrelLG.gif)
Fun intended.
I'd work on some concept art, too.
Before we get further into this project, I'd like to know if there are any coders willing to take up this project. Mind you, any artwork I do for this would be good for a portfolio, I'd just like to know whether or not any of it would be used.
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i was thinking about the gaia stuff... but happy that there are more swift fingers out there :-)
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@+ OPTIMUS + & Plague Bringer: Perhaps at this point in would be useful to start a Gaia (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7448.0) thread, and fork off here and now from simply the concept of destructible environments (especially since actual coders are having an entirely different discussion). As a matter of fact, I'll start one for you, and you can explain your ideas and post your art there.
Plague Bringer, as I understand it, you are talking about a sort of Dungeon Master third team, who would move artifacts around existing maps to get more playability out of the popular maps and the default maps? (Please answer me in that other thread over there.)
So far the ideas I liked were the robot factory, and the exploding barrels, which go together nicely, and now this whole thing reminds me of my favorite parts of Deus Ex.
P.S. Gaia correspondents: If you guys want to continue this over there, we can all delete these posts from this thread and clean it up a little. I will if you will. :)
Necro-edit: Take a look at this idea (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=4951.msg112661#msg112661).
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i favor the exploding barrels,
alien runs by barrel, human snipes barrel, BOOOOM!, alien dead
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maybe make a mod where you could build them. or make them respond and if its like any other game people will shoot them as soon as they see them.
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yeah, they may never be tactical, because the first idiot who sees it will shoot it, whether Aliens are coming or not
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I know this might be a little bit old, but...
I would be willing to help code boxes and barrels. What I will NOT do is make the models... To do this well, it would quite likely require a change to the cgame, turning this into a full mod... Anyway, if I were to do this, I would make them stackable, and somewhat pushable. While I was at it, I might also make alien and human buildables stackable to a certain extent. (ret on an arm, but no arm on a ret) As far as placing them goes, I would probably partially resurect the !layout command for its !layout edit stuff, particularly the building as a spec pieces...
If this ever gets much further, go ahead and give me a pm, although I usually only check this forum about once a week...
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in the games Starwars Jedi Knights: Jedi Outcast/Academy when you build a map, you can apply to a brush func_destructable. Then you would open the entines box and would put in the correct key and value so the game knows what kind of materal its suppose to be and of course then you can give the object a certain amount of health and ect. And in game when its destoyed it creates random boken looking brushses that use the original brushes texture and the peices fall down and the object has been destroyed.
1 thing bad about this is that you can get lots of people going around destroying everything and the person who coded the map might make it when the object is destroyed there is an explosion and some sound played, so this can instatly drop someone's fps from 90 to 5 in a split second.
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perhaps have proximity mines for humans as a buildable only when humans are s1 while aliens are s3, to balance things out aliens have an alien version of the proximity mine as a buildable only when aliens are s1 while humans are s3... once the team goes to s2 they lose the mines
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Jedi Knight 2/3 etc. use the GTK Radiant like tremulous, too.
Is it possible to edit the Radiant and import the func-destroyable from JK 2/3 to the Tremulous entitie list?
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You will also need to modify the tremulous engine to actually implement destructible brushes.
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Want someone do this?
Then i can make a wall with a lot of many many very very little brushes.
Then i could shoot holes in it =)
Like the GeoMod =)
Or i make a complete level only with this brushes.
Only the level Hull will be normal.
XD
Total destruction ^^
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I was thinking it would be cool to have Destructible environments, but on a much smaller scale then entire walls being destructible. Maybe the door could be destroyed so that they either don't open, or are always open. Boxes that block parts of the map that you can destroy. Little thing like that.
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Soonds loik arf-loyf wid all dem crates un walls un stoof.
IHMO func_destructible seems more at home in a single-player game due to the one use per game nature, though for that very reason it'll probably find use in objective-based maps too.
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I hope the developer will make a Tremulous 2.0 based on the Quake 4/Doom 3 engine.
I think this engine will be open source when the ID Tech 5 engine is finish for Doom 4 and Quake 5.
In the ID Tech 4 engine you can destroy wwalls with a trigger and with barrels or other very strong weapons =)
PS
Tremulous is ID Tech 3 Engine ;)
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In the ID Tech 4 engine you can destroy wwalls with a trigger and with barrels or other very strong weapons
So can you in Duke3D, Quake1, Quake2 and just about any other fps released after 1996. Welcome to the past.
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You didn't say quake 3.
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If you can do it in quake1, you should be able to do it in quake3.
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Well, that depends if the required functionality was removed or not. Remember that Q1 and Q2 were predominantly SP games whereas Q3A was MP/botmatch only. Quite a different set of design criteria really.
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Yes.
But it would be funny on some maps.
:)