Tremulous Forum
Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: Superpie on February 13, 2008, 02:19:35 am
-
No topics containing illegal/offensive material (Pornography/Warez/Cracks).
Lava Croft has an avatar with an upside-down penguin and a very bold Swastika. Public display of this symbol is illegal in several countries and many people are deeply offended by it, but those are just facts and I leave you to draw your own opinion.
Image (http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8018/uberoshe9.gif)
-
Short answer: No.
Long answer: No, and this poll is stupid.
First they came for the swastuxs. I said nothing, because I wasn't a swastux. :'(
-
I think so.. but I question having a poll about it.
I do know this goes in off-topic though.. not feedback.. because feedback is about tremulous not lava's avatar.
-
Of course not. If I have to remove my avatar because some people find it offensive, then everybody can demand everybody to remove their avatars/signatures because they find them offensive.
Since Superpie seems scared of actually posting the image, I'll do it for him:
(http://satgnu.net/upload/lava/uberos.gif)
-
I find it kind of hypocritical that you say someone can't spread their concepts of fasting for the cure of cancer without you jumping at them. Yet you can carry one of the most hated and demeaning symbols in the world in your avatar. Yet its ok for you to post that out? That symbol hurt a many great people, just like fasting to cure cancer. In fact that symbol is more of a threat and it should not be allowed.
Now before you freak out, I too think the idea of water fasting to cure cancer is completely and utterly retarded. But maybe you should look at yourself before you are so fast to judge others.
-
then everybody can demand everybody to remove their avatars/signatures because they find them offensive.
You ignore the fact that almost all members of this forum do not use avatars or signatures that are offensive. You are the exception.
-
I find it kind of hypocritical that you say someone can't spread their concepts of fasting for the cure of cancer without you jumping at them. Yet you can carry one of the most hated and demeaning symbols in the world in your avatar. Yet its ok for you to post that out? That symbol hurt a many great people, just like fasting to cure cancer. In fact that symbol is more of a threat and it should not be allowed.
Now before you freak out, I too think the idea of water fasting to cure cancer is completely and utterly retarded. But maybe you should look at yourself before you are so fast to judge others.
Though you disagree with me about fasting thank you for defending me, it is nice to see someone who thinks
And Lava, what is with the rainbow swastika?
-
He's trying to make it less frightening ;D
And now for a TOTALLY USELESS fact: the swastika is an ancient symbol that symbolized well being, and was used commonly throughout the world before Hitler started using it.
If that's a bunch of bs, don't blame me, blame wikipedia!
-
(http://imn2rc.einsteinbennyboy.com/ONSLAUGHT.JPG)
evil in a different way! oh well... if people hate it so much... it might be worth removing it...
-
I made the swastika a happy swastika! Now nobody can be negative about it no more, and the whiners cannot say its an exact copy of the Nazi swastika either. (Which it wasn't in the first place, but their eyes are lacking:)
@Kryota: But people only see what the Nazis did to the swastika and nothing else. That is what I mean with a selective recollection of history.
@yourface: Good to see some people catching the humourous part of all of this! But, you do know you are promoting genocide now, do you? :D
@Anihilation: You mix up two totally different things. A Swastika is just a symbol that hurt people in the past, and keeps on hurting people who live in the past, or keeps being used by people who think Nazis still have a place in this world. Saying water fasting is a cure for cancer is nothing but a blatant lie, and completely unrelated to my avatar. Now if my avatar was a lie, then you would have a point.
-
lemme put it this way...
if hitler had never used it, it would remain completely unpopular and forgotten, and none of us would probably know wut it even was... ;D
-
@Kryota: But people only see what the Nazis did to the swastika and nothing else. That is what I mean with a selective recollection of history.
The kind of Linux users that show behaviour not completely alien to Nazi behaviour.
It is you who laid the association of your usage of the swastika to that certain part in history.
-
face, hitler did use it though. If no one used water fasting, it wouldn't be an issue. Lava knows that the symbol, even if it originated as something else was used for that purpose.
Lets use an example in an example. Lava, gets a new computer, so he's extremely happy. He runs around, I'm Gay!!!!! Then he gets mad when people say, wow homo you need to stay away from me, I'm not into other guys. He is like OMFG I mean I'm HAPPY NOT HOMOSEXUAL. He is then frustrated at people assuming by gay he meant homosexual. The majority, of America, that is. Knows gay is a common and very often used term for homosexual. The most widely accepted. Where as being used for happy, it is not. It is more accepted as homosexual, than happy. So he shouldn't be frustrated at the people assuming, since they have a logical reason to assume. The same goes to his symbol, its more assumed as the nazi symbol and a symbol of racism and hate, than as an old symbol of well being. Lava should know people will take that assumption, as it is most common. It isn't recolective history, it is just how its worldly accepted in this era of time.
I made the swastika a happy swastika! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron
-
@Kryota: But people only see what the Nazis did to the swastika and nothing else. That is what I mean with a selective recollection of history.
The kind of Linux users that show behaviour not completely alien to Nazi behaviour.
It is you who laid the association of your usage of the swastika to that certain part in history.
Yes, because I had the stupid thought people could discern the swastika from the pain it has caused in the past, but it seems some people still have their heads stuck in the 1940's. I have said it before, if you cannot see the swastika as a symbol of preconception, but purely as a symbol of nazism, that is not my probem, but yours. My intention was merely to point out the preconception present in the minds of a lot of Linux users. And what other symbol represents preconception better than a swastika? It's 2008, World War 2 is a long time ago, and I just cannot be bothered by people who say they are offended by it.
-
I made the swastika a happy swastika! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron
Nice.
SWIIOBTCILCHAS
So what, Is it our business to care if Lava Croft has a swastika?
Kinda, seeing as it is publicly displayed.
-
Yes, because I had the stupid thought people could discern the swastika from the pain it has caused in the past
You must admit that was a stupid thought. And why should people discern that past? What good could that do for the present?
if you cannot see the swastika as a symbol of preconception, but purely as a symbol of nazism, that is not my probem, but yours.
You have explained your motivations for the usage of the swastika before: underlining your opinion about certain linux users behaving not unlike nazis. How can it possible be seen as just a symbol of preconception with your explicit reference to nazism? And how does it make it my problem? It's not me this thread is about, but you. Hence i view at as your problem.
-
For once I'll agree with Lava, do your research and you'll realize that the swastika is actually a Buddhist/Hindu symbol
The swastika (Sanskrit svastika, "all is well") is a cross with four arms of equal length, with the ends of each arm bent at a right angle. Sometimes dots are added between each arm.
The swastika is an ancient symbol found worldwide, but it is especially common in India. It can be seen in the art of the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Celts, Native Americans, and Persians as well Hindus, Jains and Buddhists.
The swastika's Indian name comes the Sanskrit word svasti, meaning good fortune, luck and well being.
In Hinduism, the right-hand (clockwise) swastika is a symbol of the sun and the god Vishnu, while the left-hand (counterclockwise) swastika represents Kali and magic. The Buddhist swastika is almost always clockwise, while the swastika adopted by the Nazis (many of whom had occult interests) is counterclockwise.
Hitler and the nazi party adopted the symbol because of the Aryans' conquering the Hindu people, blah blah blah white power.
That said, I still do see how it offends many people. We have a German foreign exchange student, and a kid drew a swastika on his paper and the German kid almost choked him to death.
-
My intention was merely to point out the preconception present in the minds of a lot of Linux users.
Common Windows user:
(http://madhookup.com/pics/helpdesk/moron.jpg)
-
My intention was merely to point out the preconception present in the minds of a lot of Linux users.
Common Windows user:
(http://madhookup.com/pics/helpdesk/moron.jpg)
Common Linux user:
(http://www.kyle-brady.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/nerd.gif)
-
(http://www.lushtshirts.co.uk/images/products/not-a-geek.jpg)
-
You must admit that was a stupid thought.
As you might have read, I did.
How can it possible be seen as just a symbol of preconception with your explicit reference to nazism? And how does it make it my problem? It's not me this thread is about, but you. Hence i view at as your problem.
First of all, for me, Nazism stands for preconception. They thrived on preconception. Preconception was at the core of their being. It was the basis of their power.
Secondly, since when is it my problem what other people think of me, my avatar or anything else? Should I be bothered by what other people think? Should I be influenced by what other people think? Maybe I do, but only when I choose to do so, which is not the case here.
@Odin: Thanks for being a poster child for my avatar.
-
@Odin: Thanks for being a poster child for my avatar.
If I posted that first, yours would come second. I guarantee it.
-
You aren't using it because it used to be a symbol of peace, you aren't using it because you think its pretty, you aren't using it to prove some asinine point or to play out some imaginary joke about linux users.
You're just using it for the attention or because you are a nazi. Neither have a place on the forums.
It reflects badly on the community.
-
@Tycho: I do respect people's thoughts on the swastika, but respect does not automagically mean you have to adhere to someone's demands.
Hmmm... You know the only thing that makes your avatar funny (as it is in your point of view) is that the nazis used that symbol therefore the funny aspect of it is directly related to the nazis and their genocide since you compare nazis and hardcore linux nerds with that avatar...
So technically it is a valid point that that avatar reminds people of nazis since your avatar is designed to do that, and it is on purpose and that makes it into a distasteful joke.
And respect means some sort of tolerance and acceptance of others opinions... In this case it'd mean that you do not use a swastika since it offends a lot of people. So I rather see you as understanding other people's thoughts and not respecting them...
ps.: that rainbow swastica is pure uglyness...
-
All these people here deciding for me why I do something. I guess I can just stop talking and let you guys do the talking for me?
-
All these people here deciding for me why I do something. I guess I can just stop talking and let you guys do the talking for me?
That is an exaggeration. Not all of us do that ;)
care to react to my previous post?
-
Nit to nitpick or get pedantic, (this isn't Slashdot...)
BUT.
Actually the original Swastika meaning peace, coming from Sanskrit, had the Arms rotating in a clockwise direction, denoting the cycle of life and death in the natural order of things, not really "peace" per se, but still a rather fluffy warm and fuzzy concept either way.
Hitler "broke" Swastika by turning it around and unleashing chaos. Technically Lavas symbol is the chaotic one, but if using symbols that caused evil in your avatar is an issue, anyone using a cross should remove it post hast ::)
-
@Tycho: You claim I have no respect merely because I do not adhere to your demands. Respect works both ways. Isn't it the same respect that just makes you leave me and my avatar alone, not asking if I remove it? But no, of course not, in your view respect works only one way, namely the way benefits you and your standpoint.
@SoulAssasin: It's no use with these people, a swastika stands for genocide, but have a Christian cross as your avatar and nobody will mention all the people perished at the hands of Christian extremists. It's all petty semantics by people who are just doing nothing but repeating what they have heard over the past 60 years, without even taking a minute to think for themselves.
I will say no more about this topic, I will not remove the avatar and if you have a problem with that, so be it. Just stop bothering me with your petty problems. You people have given more attention to nazism in these past 24h hours than Discovery Channel does in a week.
-
@Tycho: You claim I have no respect merely because I do not adhere to your demands. Respect works both ways. Isn't it the same respect that just makes you leave me and my avatar alone, not asking if I remove it? But no, of course not, in your view respect works only one way, namely the way benefits you and your standpoint.
I do not ask anything from you just well reasoned replies and thus far I got them :)
Back to your avatar: So you say that people do not respect you here since they do not leave your avatar and you alone so there is no reason for you take it off out of sheer respect. The problem with this is that you put up that ava the first place and offended a lot of people with it... So even by this logic if you want to be left alone you should back up first since you were the first to stomp into other people's feelings, not discussing whether these feelings and opinions are well based or not.
(and by all means this is only my opinion before you feel like I'm demanding anything more than a reply from you!)
ed.: oh I didn't continue reading your post beyond the part that adresses me... Well then let's agree to disagree, shall we?
-
@Kryota: But people only see what the Nazis did to the swastika and nothing else. That is what I mean with a selective recollection of history.
people see what the Nazis did, not the swastika, what is no suprise when you used the exact swastika of theirs, not any other one. should we quote some facts about this? or do you think that because of the selective recollection of history we don't know about many peaceful and marvelous facts about the bright side of their activity.
i think Lava made a huge success of attention whoring on purpose, congratulations for that.
at the same time it's an obvious failure, as the avatar was about some kind of insider linux humour that didn't came trough.
no wonder that this thread is about the swastika, NOT ABOUT LINUX. he just didN't hit the people that he wanted to insult.
so the main concept failed and turned out to be a selfish and pointless defending of something that wasn't the goal at all.
Lava should wield his role with responsibility.
-
as now the avatar is in rainbow colors, he made so big fool of himself that i find it almost unnecessary to remove :-D (not to mention his comments here, lol)
EDIT: a.k.a: @Lava, who the hell will ever take you serious here if you act like this?
-
as many opinions, as many posters here
doesnt it prove that the perception just depends on the viewer?
vote yes, vote no, whatever - decision what is gonna be with this picture belongs to Lava
he set up a picture as his avatar, if you had got doubts of its meaning, you could just ask about it instead of flamin
its just a symbol used as a replacement of a thought, which actually is just another opinion that you can agree of disagree with. why bother attackin him then?
i cant see any offensive content in it
-
@kaziorvb: amongst many reasons mentioned before, there is the thing that he is one of the most active forum members (by posts at least), so his avatar appers nearly on every thread's every page. so as there are not so many pictures here, his otherwise mostly unoffensive try to be cool characterises the tremulous forums visually. this affects guests, parents, schoolmates, colleagues attitude to us, so affects every single member of the community as well as their environments.
and a moderator should be responsible to the subject that he should be aware of.
the present visual characteristic of this forum is: swastikas here, swastikas there, swastikas everywhere. no matter who sees it and why, this will distort his thoughts about us.
with another example:
he can wear a t-shirt like this also, as he is the only one responsible for his dressing, but if he is with his friends in that t-shirt, it also affects the friends. it is all right if someone misunderstands it and kicks him in the face alone, but if a bunch of people comes around and kicks all of his friends face also teeth by teeth... got it?
we belong to the same community.
EDIT: though i think the poll is useless as he will not pay attention on it, and also because ha should change it by his own will...
-
I, for one, welcome our new SwastiTux overlords.
-
I prefer the binary swastika to the rainbow one.
-
I prefer the binary swastika to the rainbow one.
Yeah... the binary looks better.
-
ed.: oh I didn't continue reading your post beyond the part that adresses me... Well then let's agree to disagree, shall we?
He isn't interested in that, even after I apologized he continued
-
How can it possible be seen as just a symbol of preconception with your explicit reference to nazism?...
First of all, for me, Nazism stands for preconception. They thrived on preconception. Preconception was at the core of their being. It was the basis of their power.
Preconception: An opinion or conception formed in advance of adequate knowledge or experience, especially a prejudice or bias
The transport of meaning in communication is performed by the usage of symbols and signs. Symbols and signs by them self have no meaning. The message (or meaning) is transported when both communicating agents have a similar understanding (connotation) of the symbols and signs used for communication.
For the agent seeking communication, it usually tries to use those symbols and signs of which it expects the receiver to understand, or associate similar connotation with. This is the basis of communication. Using symbols and signs disregarding their connotations in the current cultural embedding only leads to confusion and misinterpretation.
Though you may associate Nazism with general preconception, the majority in the western culture have a associations of a specific preconception of Nazism, and especially associations to the execution of their preconceptions to it's full consequence.
In this context, you used the symbol disregarding it's full connotation in the current cultural and historical embedding. Thus confusion and the feedback you are getting is a logical result. You cannot act all surprised by it, and i doubt you are that naive.
Again, there is nothing wrong in discussing these issues, it would be actually strange and worryingly if there was no discussion about it. I agree with the other thread that tabooization of certain topics is not helpful. More openness about certain issues help a lot more in education and understanding than forcing a lid on it. But does it help the community and the forum for it to be plastered with swastikas?
[EDIT] typo + typo
-
^
| the repost of this follows here |
˘
The only thing that makes Lava's avatar funny (as it is in some of our points of views) is that the nazis used that symbol therefore the funny aspect of it is directly related to the comparison of nazis and hardcore linux nerds with that avatar...
So technically the picture is designed to remind people of nazis therefore it is a valid point that that avatar uses a nazi symbol that is offensive to a lot of people.
Just before we turn back to the not well known fact that that symbol actually can mean anything else I wanted to clarify that here it actually means what offended a lot of forum members.
-
Nice rainbow! And YourFace, I want that map!
-
@Tycho: You claim I have no respect merely because I do not adhere to your demands. Respect works both ways. Isn't it the same respect that just makes you leave me and my avatar alone, not asking if I remove it? But no, of course not, in your view respect works only one way, namely the way benefits you and your standpoint.
@SoulAssasin: It's no use with these people, a swastika stands for genocide, but have a Christian cross as your avatar and nobody will mention all the people perished at the hands of Christian extremists. It's all petty semantics by people who are just doing nothing but repeating what they have heard over the past 60 years, without even taking a minute to think for themselves.
I will say no more about this topic, I will not remove the avatar and if you have a problem with that, so be it. Just stop bothering me with your petty problems. You people have given more attention to nazism in these past 24h hours than Discovery Channel does in a week.
(http://img.webring.com/r/s/satanworshipandp/logo)
enjoy :)
-
I like this one better:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Starman.jpg)
-
I like this one the best:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pentacle_2.svg
-
(http://www.luigicascioli.it/images/satan_langue_big.jpg)
(http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/satan8.jpg)
(http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/One-Day/Pix/Sq_Com/sm-sq_com4xp.gif)
These are way better
-
maybe just start using
(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1720/pr0smfnq7.png)
-
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
-
And you know who Voltaire is right?
-
A philosopher and writer from the 1700's.
-
Voltaire is one of the most enlightened philosophers to ever have lived. His remark concerning God is just classical: If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.
-
.
.
.
These are way better
The best of them all. ;D (http://www2.b3ta.com/mind-control/)
-
Guess what guys, I'm a Neo-Pagan and I find pentagrams used in context of Satanism almost as offensive as swastikas in the context of Nazism!
No, seriously!
However, I find infringing on free speech extremely offensive, so I really don't mind the pentagrams and Swastikas too much.
My 10 cents:
Why can't non-moderators with positive karma have avatars? Anything more offensive than Lava's avatar will probably push their Karma into the negatives.
-
My dear sir, when we see black, shall we call the color afro-american. When we see an eagle, shall we be reminded of the massacres endured under it by both the so called third reich as well as the roman empire, or do you prefer the american image of the eagle? Images are images, ideas are ideas, images are not needed for ideas. Anyone who thinks we are advocating nazism is wrong, we are advocating insight in to reality and arguing against an absurd form of censorship held by beliefs. People are against the swastika, but are forgetting that guantanamo bay is some kind of concentration camp as well, and that there is persecution and censorship in the US and china as well. Shall we make a taboo of their symbols as well? Or will we realize that there is a difference. Or let's take something less loaded, like the numeral I. But i did that by typing an uppercase i. So does it mean 1 or capital i? There's just a disconnect between visual and singular meaning, realize that.
My intention was merely to point out the preconception present in the minds of a lot of Linux users.
Common Windows user:
(http://madhookup.com/pics/helpdesk/moron.jpg)
Common Linux user:
(http://www.kyle-brady.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/nerd.gif)
common mac user:
nonexistant