Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Obidose on April 26, 2008, 01:17:02 am
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I am sure I am not the only one to notice how common hacks are becoming in trem now. People don't even bother hiding it a lot of the time and can sometimes feel proud to be doing it.
As tremulous is open source I suppose it is pretty easy to make hacks for. Also it would be pretty hard to program and implement a system like punkbuster. The only thing that can really work consistently is having admins on servers.
So how about having a system where by people have to register an account. Once they have registered they become a trial member. As a trial member the will only be able to play on a select few servers which are heavily watched by admin. After they have logged a certain number of hours/referals from admin or something they can then become a full member and get access to all the servers around. Hopefully that would filter out most of the hackers, and also require only minimal admin on the normal servers. People would be afraid of being reverted back to trial account if they were caught hacking. A step further and better would be some kind of reporting system in the normal servers which could be accessed by an ingame menu, members who were reported too much would be investigated or maybe just demoted instantly. Other tiers could also be introduced rather than just trial and normal.
I don't know how hard to make work this would be. The way I see it, as long as there could be a central account server with details on it, and everyone had to log in to play it would be achievable.
I know this has no chance of actually happening. I am really only posting this as I have been so frustrated with cheaters recently, and my mind starts thinking of crazy schemes like this. I liked this idea and so thought I would write it down. Also by posting it on the forum it will at least spark a little more discussion. Who knows, one day we might have a hack free tremulous.
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I don't know how hard to make work this would be. The way I see it, as long as there could be a central account server with details on it, and everyone had to log in to play it would be achievable.
That there's yer problem </auto-mechanic-voice>
I'm pretty sure ideas like this, or other centralized methods, have been discussed here before and they all suffer the same problem - the central authority. Either people that you wouldn't necessarily trust to admin your own servers would be having their say as to who can and cannot play there, or it would be a small group of people who wouldn't likely be able to keep up with the playerbase. Who chooses those people? What happens if someone slips up or decides they've had enough and lets everyone in (or bans everyone from playing)?
The closest to a workable idea like this that I've seen is one which is an optional hook in the server. In this way, let's say you run 5 Tremulous servers yourself. You could have all five of them contact your own authentication/authority/whatever, thereby sharing that trust between those servers. Perhaps a friend of yours sets up a server, and they want to trust whomever you do, they could also tie into your system. More advanced ideas implement the web-of-trust model where you may trust one authority more than another, and therefore take their reply with more weight than that of other places. But then you run into other issues, such as what happens when the centralized system is down.
The best way to keep cheaters/abusers/etc out of the game is to have good administrators. I realize that might not be a consolation in your particular case, but a centralized system for determining who is good and who is evil has a lot of flaws (I've only named a few, I'm sure a couple others will join in shortly with more - kevlarman for example has said numerous times why something like this wouldn't work). But if you're the type to be handy with a compiler, don't let the above verbiage stop you from trying to make it happen :>
Edit: Thinking about it, this might better be served in the Feedback section too.
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Interesting.
I think limiting a new users' experience of Tremulous by way of a kind of probation period would only serve to reduce player numbers overall. People like to get stuck in and play, wherever and whenever they want.
I suppose you've just got to find good servers with Admins who give a shit about what happens there.
Having an account based system in order to play on certain servers would, perhaps, be a feature that could be implemented. It would of course require the server owner(s) to register with the system and some kind of reporting mechanism put in place to ban users that infringe the rules.
There is nothing to stop new servers being put up and i suppose that is one of the good things about Trem. Having no regulation perhaps increases the userbase, but then you've got to deal with the few bad apples that pop up from time to time.
Above all, it should stay as open as possible and i think the majority of people respect fair play. Those that dont, well, mores the pity really.
Its a game. If one finds value in cheating instead of being skilful i think its a real shame and just demonstrates the kind of personal character those people have.
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The idea as stated has been proposed and refuted more times than I can recall.
The web of trust idea, however, while looking better at first, is also flawed. The problem is how to tell who is who between servers -- short of a registry process, there is no way that will work in all cases. And a decentralized registry system would be shitty as hell. A player would either have to register for _every_ server that they play on, or we'd have to again turn to a centralized service, which, as we've stated, won't work either. You can't use GUID to track users across servers, because having a unique GUID for every server is needed to avoid impersonation. (Quick version: Player Foo, who is admin on server Bar, joins server Baz. Baz's admin is a bad person and copies Foo's GUID, then uses it connect as an admin to server Bar.)
TL;DR version: This shit doesn't work. Play on servers with admins.
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The problem is creating identities. Tremulous is a free game so anyone can download a copy and play. That means that a player has no solid identity to associate them with. If you try to use IP addresses, they can change those. If you try to use GUID, they can change them too. In most games, your identity is linked to your copy of a game. What prevents people from abusing servers is basically the player's ability to buy new copies. But with Tremulous, there is no 'token' or way to award identities and therefore tracking methods to each player.
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The only thing that can really work consistently is having admins on servers.
I agree!
And i think its good enough. There are enough servers with a descend admin coverage.
I think others people hacks are only a problem if the only joy you have is in winning games.
Though there are open source free games where a centralized authentication system works pretty well (not perfect, but limiting the annoyance to an acceptable limit), tremulous is a place where they think everything works different here. But as long as there are servers with good administration and a pleasant, consistent and continues player base, I have no problem with it, since the annoyance on those servers is far within acceptable limits.
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better would be some kind of reporting system
agree
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Individual servers could implement an accounts system, I guess. You're GUID gets registered at their website, and you can only enter with that GUID.
Might be a bit bugged though.
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Individual servers could implement an accounts system, I guess. You're GUID gets registered at their website, and you can only enter with that GUID.
Might be a bit bugged though.
So, how do you stop someone from registering another account to circumvent a ban?
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So, how do you stop someone from registering another account on the forums to circumvent a forum ban?
Ask yourself this question also.
There is no good way of getting around this problem.
Some possible ideas. (and a couple problems of each)
A. White-lists (Subjective, cumbersome)
B. IP address tracking (Dynamic IPs, proxies)
C. Re-ban offending users (Cumbersome, wasted resources)
D. MAC-address tracking (Easy to spoof)
E. Passworded servers (Password distribution, also see A.)
F. Player-run moderation (Subjective, mob-mentality)
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Implementing something like punkbuster can become a real pain in the ass, since there are always updates and its not always accurate. As of right now the best we can do is have the active admins. While not the most efficient system it is the easiest.
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my solutions
1) have a site that admins post IPs GUID and name of potential hackers. On that site there is a page that has the hackers names GUID and ip assembled so you can paste them into your serverconfig and they will be banned from your server. unless a video was included that proved the player an aimbot it would take 2 or 3 people posting for it to be included in the part you copy and paste. although hackers can change there ip and stuff it would be a big pain after a wile and they would soon stop hacking or quit tremulous.
another idea is to make it so there are hidden aliens in walls that show up on radar so aimboters will start shooting at walls
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my solutions
1) have a site that admins post IPs GUID and name of potential hackers. On that site there is a page that has the hackers names GUID and ip assembled so you can paste them into your serverconfig and they will be banned from your server. unless a video was included that proved the player an aimbot it would take 2 or 3 people posting for it to be included in the part you copy and paste. although hackers can change there ip and stuff it would be a big pain after a wile and they would soon stop hacking or quit tremulous.
another idea is to make it so there are hidden aliens in walls that show up on radar so aimboters will start shooting at walls
the first idea won't work because 1) it's easy for a few people to get someone they don't like blacklisted (or even if they have nothing against that person, there are quite a few players that would get reported by a lot of people even without cheating if they are under an alias) and 2) it's a much bigger pain to ban them than it is for them to get a new guid and ip (fortunately the only REALLY big idiot i've met so far didn't have any other players in the pool of ips he had access to, so banning the whole /13 was an option). the second won't work because anything that would keep fake players from being rendered could be used by aimbots to ignore those fake players.
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how about if more people back up the person saying that they dont hack then the people who proposed the hack get banned for 5 days
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how about if more people back up the person saying that they dont hack then the people who proposed the hack get banned for 5 days
IT WONT WORK GET OVER IT AND LEARN SOMETHING FOR ONCE.
Hi, did you read what was posted above you and think intelligently about?
If someone were hacking and got reported by an honest player, than his friends could team together and say it was not true and the honest person would get banned. IT DOES NOT WORK.
Anyone could ban innocent people or hack without getting caught.
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Best anti-hacking strategy is also the oldest and most simple:
Play on good servers, with friends.
Evade crap servers, and lamers.
Problem solved.
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And in addition to what Lava said, there's also an element of "who gives a damn?"
The bots that are wildly better than humans are very easy to catch and ban.
The bots that are "smarter" and appear mostly human are only performing at the level of a decent human, so... who cares? If you're any good, you can still whoop them because the players using them generally can't dodge for crap. It's not worth developing elaborate schemes and spending tons of times speccing people who aren't actually that good, even with their bots.
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I think server admins are doing fine the way it is now. Just last night I was banned from one server for deconning floor trappers, and another for aimbotting with a grenade. So its really unnecessary to implement any new anti-hack features.
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Ahh, but your problem is related to a completely different issue, namely that of "stupid admins." Unfortunately there's no known software patch that can fix a problem that exists between the keyboard and chair.
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Maybe, using the MySQL database idea Paradox posted in this forum, linking up all players to master server? Or something such as having players register on a website activating their account or something similar. If their account is not activated, then no play for them. This would eliminate unnamedplayer-ism as well as asshole-ism (mostly). Aimbotters on the other hand, if caught, could be warned > banned from trem (if sufficient evidence warrants such actions).
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i think it just comes down to a, "why bother". all games have botters all games have hackers; the admins are there to hopefully take care of that but short of screening every player to get the game you wont be able to fix the problem.
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(http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/screenshots/bioshock-hacking.jpg)
Need i say more?
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For those who don't know the name of the game, maybe you do :>
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Its in the url.
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So how about having a system where by people have to register an account. Once they have registered they become a trial member. As a trial member the will only be able to play on a select few servers which are heavily watched by admin. After they have logged a certain number of hours/referals from admin or something they can then become a full member and get access to all the servers around. Hopefully that would filter out most of the hackers, and also require only minimal admin on the normal servers. People would be afraid of being reverted back to trial account if they were caught hacking. A step further and better would be some kind of reporting system in the normal servers which could be accessed by an ingame menu, members who were reported too much would be investigated or maybe just demoted instantly. Other tiers could also be introduced rather than just trial and normal.
This would not work. No one wants to have to play the game 10 hours just so they can get away from the rest of the pack. Also, it would be a major pain if you lose your GUID. Having admins can't save a game. The community is what matters. If you find a hacker, start a thread!
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If I find a useless thread, I lock it!
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Rather than start a thread, just notify the admins in-game. If you cant identify the admins, try the "/a" command.
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I think server admins are doing fine the way it is now. Just last night I was banned from one server for deconning floor trappers, and another for aimbotting with a grenade. So its really unnecessary to implement any new anti-hack features.
Even the best players mess up in the sight of... adminies. Don't fret. Those aren't your fault. (except maybe the nade one... but that is a question of if.)
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One suggestion but i don't know if it's possible. That is a program or something that is programmed into the server qvm. It would track where players hit someone on the hitbox location. If the person consistently hits on the same spot on that hitbox maybe like 5-10 times for aliens and 15-25 times for humans, then that player would get automatically kicked. For example, if human A shoots the goon in the same spot everytime like on the exact center of the hitbox, the player would be kicked or, a message would pop up for any admins on that server to spec that player. I'm not sure if tremulous has the ability to track where a person hits on the hitbox because all i know that maps have certain locations and i don't think hitboxes have locations. They probably do have but ya, i don't know. This would have to be a trial and error kind of application because it could end up kicking many skilled players.
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I promise you that 2 days after that's released aimbots will be upgraded to lock on a random point in the hitbox.
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The best idea is the de-centralised WOT-style ban sharing scheme.
Every time I see someone competent try to make one, I jump in and offer help. They always give up.
Making one is still on my todo list, but don't expect it any time soon.
And aimbots aren't that prevalent. Its rare that I see one, but I only play on servers that have decent admins so that's probably why.
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i was playing trem a few days ago and some guy (i forgot his name) logged on, then in a matter of seconds his name was appearing all over the screen:
HE killed him
he kills her
he killed ...
so one...
so i diciced to specatate him and i have seen he was aimbotting
but he couldn't be kicked or banned due he WAS an admin
my point is you can do anything when you get admin...
so (knowing it will never happen. but i am going to try anyway) i suggest that there is a (from idea from topic start) logg in which there your filln in your username your password then a code like "3Kad4Fh" or whatever it is this should stop some botters then when playing the game no one has admin and no one can set an admin for you, you can only be admin by voting like /callvote ellectadmin playername kinda thing.. so there would be less admins and that all server has a limit of so meny admins (like 10 for sst) so whenever someone is ellected to be admin anotherone is kicked out so ther ealways is a rotation of admins, due to this fact the control you can have being an admin is !passvote !kick !warn !time !mute !listadmins !listplayers and a new one which i just thought of it now !liststats, which is when you go !liststats it comes up with everyone's name the amount of shot fired this game the amount of feeds and kills and deaths. also if you do not have admin you can only do /callvote poll /callvote mute /callvote ellectadmin. i took the BAN of so if a aimbotter gets accussed he can just kick or ban everyone. but ONLY the server manager can have the useall ones ( !listplayers !listadmin !mute !devmap !kick !ban !warn !time so one) but HE is the only one which can ban AND cancelvote he can also EXCLUDE some admins making them back to level 0. this systeme should get ride of ANY excuses made by botters like the only listed bellow in green
that systeme may not keep the botters off but i will keep everyone fair and square so the example: "you aimbotter" says a player he answers "so what you going to ban me? ha ha good luck cause you can't i am admin." it would only happen on some days but on the next day people probably would remeber the person and kick him...
there is a 1 out of 10000 that this will be real one day on trem but who knows? might be THAT lucky one...
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Average causality seems to be beyond your level of thinking maxell
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It's not that complicated. Next time record a demo of the botter and submit it to the server owner. If he doesn't do anything, don't play on that server anymore. It really is that simple.
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Well, admins should *NEVER* overstep their own rules. So play on a better server. I recommend PureTrem. But that's really just opinion.
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survivor A) i have a IQ of 150 rounded up
and if i don't go on server which people DO NOT HAX then i wouldn't be playing trem at all
also: i record most of my games only posting them (which i done before) got me banned for posting a video...
also: people with dymanic IP which can avoid mutes, kick, bans, and some other things, therefor dynamic people should be banned somehow (i am no computer genius, but i know there is a way to do it) bannmed of all server or any servers...
also: as i said beforeWell, admins should *NEVER* overstep their own rules. So play on a better server. I recommend PureTrem. But that's really just opinion.
the "should" says well most admin respects there own rules but some just use these rules like if there were above the law... and these people shouldn't be playing there ruin the "fun" of playing the game. and also, last time that i checked a "game" is to have fun or be happy
we should make a post os the best/fairest/most liked/nicest/ so one
i will make that post look in general
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also: people with dymanic IP which can avoid mutes, kick, bans, and some other things, therefor dynamic people should be banned somehow (i am no computer genius, but i know there is a way to do it) bannmed of all server or any servers...
*cough*Only a few people use static IP addresses*cough*By banning dynamic IP addresses will ban a lot of people*cough*Alternative is hostnames*cough*
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survivor A) i have a IQ of 150 rounded up
If you brag about your IQ, then you are not intelligent enough to see how incredibly flawed the concept is. Think of a yardstick, building a yardstick to measure pieces of wood to find out which is most like a yardstick. Then realize that what you're really bragging about is living up to a fabricated determination of a concept that any thinking being admits we know precious little about, intelligence. Then spend a year or two studying epistemology, then spend at least 2 years working with the same group of severely retarded adults.
When you realize that humanity usually can't even see intelligence, you'll begin to wonder how it is claimed that its possible to measure it.
For the record I have never taken an IQ test. It was not part of standardized testing when I was a child and I find it to be a useless number now.
* sorry to go offtopic, but it annoys me when intelligent people use arbitrary numbers to brag about intelligence instead of a real measure such as reasoned discourse.
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For those readers who may think we live in a land where all must be ideal, and everything regulated, might I remind you that if a person has his own server, that person can hack, cheat, bot, abuse, revert and do whatever the hell he wants to. If people decide he is a jerk and don't want to play there, that is their choice. If it is that op/owner's personal joy to be king of a crappy server where only people who are desperate enough for a place to play remain, while any sane player leaves within seconds and never returns, such is that person's choice.
The answer always remains the same. It's a free game. Play on places with good admins and fair players, or learn to enjoy being abused. A small "family" of servers could be created with a very limited, inefficient, best-application-of-a-worst-case-scenario Web of Trust arrangement, but the opportunities for spoofing and exploiting such a system by persons so inclined are endlessly entertaining.
Tremulous. Get your own server. And STFU.
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For those readers who may think we live in a land where all must be ideal, and everything regulated, might I remind you that if a person has his own server, that person can hack, cheat, bot, abuse, revert and do whatever the hell he wants to. If people decide he is a jerk and don't want to play there, that is their choice. If it is that op/owner's personal joy to be king of a crappy server where only people who are desperate enough for a place to play remain, while any sane player leaves within seconds and never returns, such is that person's choice.
The answer always remains the same. It's a free game. Play on places with good admins and fair players, or learn to enjoy being abused. A small "family" of servers could be created with a very limited, inefficient, best-application-of-a-worst-case-scenario Web of Trust arrangement, but the opportunities for spoofing and exploiting such a system by persons so inclined are endlessly entertaining.
Tremulous. Get your own server. And STFU.
True point, but still... especially if you host an "NO BOTS!!!" server, you should not overstep your own rule. When you have authority, it's a question of "why would I?" It's the same reason there are hackers, except these people run a server that says "NO BOTS!!!" and lie. Which is not good.
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...you forgot coulda.
I think you really stuck the landing, though.
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survivor A) i have a IQ of 150 rounded up
An IQ is for measuring how well you do in solving IQ tests,
I am not sure its an indication for anything else ;)
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IQ is designed to measure linear/non-linear thinking and see how many hurdles you can jump through. Mine is 250, because you get an extra 100 for knowing that the test is a cheating liar. ;D
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also: people with dymanic IP which can avoid mutes, kick, bans, and some other things, therefor dynamic people should be banned somehow (i am no computer genius, but i know there is a way to do it) bannmed of all server or any servers...
*cough*Only a few people use static IP addresses*cough*By banning dynamic IP addresses will ban a lot of people*cough*Alternative is hostnames*cough*
http://code.google.com/p/p-g-qvm/issues/detail?id=88
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also: people with dymanic IP which can avoid mutes, kick, bans, and some other things, therefor dynamic people should be banned somehow (i am no computer genius, but i know there is a way to do it) bannmed of all server or any servers...
*cough*Only a few people use static IP addresses*cough*By banning dynamic IP addresses will ban a lot of people*cough*Alternative is hostnames*cough*
http://code.google.com/p/p-g-qvm/issues/detail?id=88
I do know about the patch as I tested it with Slacker, although some IPs don't have hostnames.
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i have had an admin explain to me how he dropped his mouse it turned 180 decrease and fired 5 shots at me by mistake
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That patch will lag your server every time someone joins.
Allow me to quickly set you up a long line of very laggy DNS servers in a loop...
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That patch is very buggy, as such, it isnt in PGQVM
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I am sure I am not the only one to notice how common hacks are becoming in trem now. People don't even bother hiding it a lot of the time and can sometimes feel proud to be doing it.
As tremulous is open source I suppose it is pretty easy to make hacks for. Also it would be pretty hard to program and implement a system like punkbuster. The only thing that can really work consistently is having admins on servers.
So how about having a system where by people have to register an account. Once they have registered they become a trial member. As a trial member the will only be able to play on a select few servers which are heavily watched by admin. After they have logged a certain number of hours/referals from admin or something they can then become a full member and get access to all the servers around. Hopefully that would filter out most of the hackers, and also require only minimal admin on the normal servers. People would be afraid of being reverted back to trial account if they were caught hacking. A step further and better would be some kind of reporting system in the normal servers which could be accessed by an ingame menu, members who were reported too much would be investigated or maybe just demoted instantly. Other tiers could also be introduced rather than just trial and normal.
I don't know how hard to make work this would be. The way I see it, as long as there could be a central account server with details on it, and everyone had to log in to play it would be achievable.
I know this has no chance of actually happening. I am really only posting this as I have been so frustrated with cheaters recently, and my mind starts thinking of crazy schemes like this. I liked this idea and so thought I would write it down. Also by posting it on the forum it will at least spark a little more discussion. Who knows, one day we might have a hack free tremulous.
This sounds too much like WoW or Steam, Tremulous is one of the best fps multiplayer shooters because of its freedom. People shouldn't be cahinee up by the beginning, newbies wouldn't want to play the game because they'll be condemned to trail members, and oh, whats this? can hackers hack the trail system to make the computer think they're full members? This idiea is dumb, un-necesarry and would create problems in the future. +1 for trying to help the hacking problem, but I don't see people hacking 24/7 on Tremulous, the only hacks I saw was aim-botting and the ones I have. It is easy to hack, but even the hackers know hacking would make the gameing experince dumb. Period.
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Didn't add anything new really to a 2 month old topic.