Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Higher Game on May 21, 2008, 07:08:01 am
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There are spots in atcs where a normal goon cannot pounce a jet user. They sit there and fire all they want until (or rather, if) aliens get s3. It would make sense if normal goons had a higher jump to combat this, while advanced goons get a weaker jump because it is made up for by their sniping, and it makes sense because they are bigger and bulkier. Normal goons would still be useful in s3 if this was done. They're already useful in some maps because of their smaller size to fit in some tunnels, but giving them better jumping would add to that.
As for advanced marauders, their shock attack should have something like 3x more range against non-organic targets, like turrets and battlesuits. As is, their shock is rarely used, and aliens only get an effective anti-turret unit at s3, with the advanced goon. An s2 anti-turret weapon would make things more fair, and making it extra effective against battlesuits would give aliens a better chance, since h2 humans already very easily kill s2 aliens.
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Look at this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4461;sa=showPosts). Do you see a pattern?
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1) Don't play on servers where people only play atcs and everyone jettards. This is a social problem, not a gameplay one.
2) Yeah, mara is underpowered in 1.1 + unlagged. This is addressed in 1.2.
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1) Don't play on servers where people only play atcs and everyone jettards. This is a social problem, not a gameplay one.
2) Yeah, mara is underpowered in 1.1 + unlagged. This is addressed in 1.2.
zap might be underpowered, but mara definitely isn't in the hands of a good player
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1) Don't play on servers where people only play atcs and everyone jettards. This is a social problem, not a gameplay one.
2) Yeah, mara is underpowered in 1.1 + unlagged. This is addressed in 1.2.
zap might be underpowered, but mara definitely isn't in the hands of a good player
It is a frigging killing machine with Unlagged >_>
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Okay, if your name is Anger or Yarou or Dima, mara is great in unlagged. I thought it was pretty apparent that this wasn't a pseudonym for any of those.
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Anger not being around so much, Draik has the absolute top mara I know of. And I'm fairly certain he can use it in lagged too, very well. Mara is anything but underpowered. It's not overpowered for certain though, I think it's just right.
Been working on my own mara tons. It gets incredibly easy to kill even decent chainsuits. However, a good chainsuit can keep a lock-on long enough that no matter how fast the advanced mara can get in headshots, the chainsuit WILL win.
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Higher Game, other than the size problems the advanced versions of aliens are better in every way to their standard counterparts because they cost that extra evo.
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Okay, if your name is Anger or Yarou or Dima, mara is great in unlagged. I thought it was pretty apparent that this wasn't a pseudonym for any of those.
Excuse me? mara is the class I use the most on SST (lagged) I get 5-10 kills on an average game.
One day SST was down and I was on the EBSF server (unlagged) I can't remember the kills but it was incredible.
Marauders dominate humans in the hands of a good player.
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I have to agree with Lakitu, here (at least with half of what he said). S2 humans (with any weapon other than a painsaw and maybe a flamethrower) rape marauders. That includes Anger's, Yarou's, and probably Dima's marauder (I never fought the last one's, though, but I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, hehe). The only marauder I've seen that can kill good s2 humans consistently is Draikonz' (haven't fought his mara in a while though). That's...one player out of hundreds. So yes, based on in-game evidence, the marauder is underpowered, and is only really good for showing off occasionally.
Play better humans and you'll see. SST/EBSF/whatever other servers you apparently frequent aren't even close.
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I'll warn you Revan, 5-10 kills isn't going to impress as much as you think it will. Unless you get those kills within the first minute of playing and then end the game, I'd stop right there.
Marauders and dretches are the most fun aliens to play as for me. It doesn't matter that I could do better with other aliens, I have more fun with maras.
Applejuice, don't generalize too much or I'll maraud your ass off when you're not looking. >.>
EDIT: Also note that marauders are the best alien for fleeing (FACT). Tactically significant I'd say!
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Hehe, I'm looking forward to it. :)
P.S. Whoops, forgot that this is a game for a second. Took it too seriously. Ya, marauders r vry fun.
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He thinks I mean in-game >.>
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It's not that it's useless.. it's that there's no reason to go mara when you could go goon. That's fine in "cost more evos = better" balance, but not so much for "every class is useful" balance.
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Mara is good for a distraction while the dretches do the damage. Unlike a goon, a mara can jump around and avoid dretches better in a firefight.
Overall, the mara's role isn't really that remarkable when compared to a goon tho. The mara has higher hit points than other aliens and moderate size. But it nothing more than a decoy or forward unit more so than anything else.
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@revan: we played a full day of unlagged sst today. People hated it.
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Look at this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4461;sa=showPosts). Do you see a pattern?
No.
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.eye had the best mara i had ever seen. mara's are a bit underpowered seeing their capabilities with an average player. their hitting is also a bit buggy since when u look up to a human from the ground, you have to hit above their head to get a consistent headshot unlike other aliens were you just look at the face and its a headshot.
about the goons having a bad pounce, i think the guy who made atcs made the jetpack height in the middle on purpose so that reg goons can't hit them. that is a reason why adv goons cost more and are stronger. i think if anything that the pounce for adv goons get a bit shorter and their chomping power get a lot stronger. that and the reg goon having the same chomp power was kind of surprising to me and caused me to favor reg goon a lot more than adv. i think the only goo dthing about the adv goon was the sniping cus it is really effective.
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It should only be fair that aliens at s2 have a counter for what humans get at s2, the jetpack. As it is now, aliens have to reach s3 to counter an s2 weapon. Even then, killing a jetpack is still very difficult. Since you can only hit legs or body effectively, they are usually tougher than a battlesuit!
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How much damage are these jettards doing?
Are they actually killing you? How often?
How difficult is it to run right under them?
Is camping the skies a better defense than defending the base from inside the base?
Is it a more effective offensive tactic than actually engaging the enemy and/or attacking their base?
How often do the efforts of jettards force a human victory?
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You don't need to counter to things that are strategically worthless.
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I disagree with Apple because he's a dumbass, of course.
Draik isn't super-human. If he alone proves what the mara can do, then the problem isn't that the mara sucks, it's that the players suck. I think if they beefed up the mara, we'd all play it more, and get good enough that the extra power given to it would make it unstoppable. The thing is defined as a raiding class anyway, it's not supposed to be a powerhouse chainsuit killer like the dragoon.
I've also seen some maras kicking some ATCS base ass from below, hitting the rets near the side with zappage.
The mara zap does not kill your teammates, so a mara can be useful in ganging opponents.
There are uses for the mara. I'll try and be the next living proof of this over the summer. You can't change the game to accommodate the average player, because the good players will make you sorry you did.
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:(
I didn't mean to imply that marauders suck, are useless, and should be tweaked. I was simply responding to the notion that marauders are "killing machines in unlagged." It's not that most players suck with the marauder, because even great marauder players have much trouble killing even human s2 rifles (they'd be lucky to score 2-5 kills, out of 20-30 rounds). Then again, maybe they're supposed to have that much trouble; if every alien could kill s2 humans easily by themselves, without any support, then stage 2 wouldn't be as much of a major tactical advantage to humans as it is now.
P.S. This is all based on American marauders. I have not, and probably will not (due to ping) play European marauders and European humans, so my comments do not include that group of players.
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P.S. This is all based on American marauders
There you have it! You just said American Marauders suck! \o/
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Numbah 1: I've never had trouble reaching jetters as standard goon on atcs. Try jumping from those little high points on the bunker. When you clip their foot, quickly get back up and pounce them further down.
Numbah 2: I'd say a map like niveus or arachnid are examples of where jetpacks are best. There isn't anywhere an alien can't wallwalk to reach and the jetpack is used for getting from A to B quickly rather than camping the skies.
Numbah 3: Marauders do have a very clever role. They're small and agile which makes them ideal for dealing damage and running away without getting blocked and getting blasted in your fat ass. Where a team would murder a goon and get those sweet sweet credits, the mara can skim by them to safety. The idea of not giving your enemy points might be hard to understand for your public gamers, but in clan wars this is essential.
Mighty mara's shall doom you all.
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Jetpackers fall down when you kill their reactor, so i would focus on that if you cant reach the sky :P
And about mara, there was this european clan that won many matches with mostly marauders.
There are some maras i cant play against, even in s3, i have to face it, skill is overpowered, hehe
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I forgot to mention the zzzap.
I find it's best use is not against bases or groups of humans, but for giving damage between the time you're able to claw a hummy. If you need a demonstration I'd be happy to email you a demo. Just ask.
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I seem to recall that cy played marauder only matches later on in their development with a pretty high success rate.There are plenty of good marauder players out there but most of them would probably kick ass with any class :P
As for having trouble with jettards on atcs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68aDZ4IM9kc enjoy.
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:(
I didn't mean to imply that marauders suck, are useless, and should be tweaked. I was simply responding to the notion that marauders are "killing machines in unlagged." It's not that most players suck with the marauder, because even great marauder players have much trouble killing even human s2 rifles (they'd be lucky to score 2-5 kills, out of 20-30 rounds).
Apparently you HAVENT SEEN DRACONE he was raping us, getting 50+ kills even on s2 players, even it was damm hard to dodge him, and trust me, i thought i was ok at dodging.
Ok well, that surprises me that the average is 2-5 kills, my mara usaully gets around 20.
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:(
I didn't mean to imply that marauders suck, are useless, and should be tweaked. I was simply responding to the notion that marauders are "killing machines in unlagged." It's not that most players suck with the marauder, because even great marauder players have much trouble killing even human s2 rifles (they'd be lucky to score 2-5 kills, out of 20-30 rounds).
Apparently you HAVENT SEEN DRACONE he was raping us, getting 50+ kills even on s2 players, even it was damm hard to dodge him, and trust me, i thought i was ok at dodging.
Ok well, that surprises me that the average is 2-5 kills, my mara usaully gets around 20.
No offense, but if you don't know what you're talking about, don't post.
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adv marauder are better with unlagged ; i thought i was getting better :'(
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adv marauder are better with unlagged ; i thought i was getting better :'(
Shit i'll be lucky to hit anything in unlagged with mara that thing is to wild im like "how to control this thing"?
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Even the best marauders honestly aren't that hard to kill with a rifle at s2. But based on what I've seen in the MgDev server, marauders will be overpowered big time in the hands of people like Ozzy and Draikonz.
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I'm pretty sure the quote regarding that went something like: "Mara is really overpowered when Anger uses it" "St. Anger is overpowered"
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Rare Mexican Tremroids I say.
However, there are some givens with mara. If a mara that NEVER missed somehow came across a chainsuit with a lock-on that did not stray from the target (*cough* LeStrange), the mara WILL lose. It is just flat out a given. I have not fought a chainsuit that can aim well and won without having the advantage of sneaking up first, because they just do too much damage too fast. With basi though, I've killed many chainsuits because basi can be a hell of a lot more elusive to those who lock on, plus it can grab, and circle and feignt while getting headswipes.
But yeah, there's a point where maras just can't really be good enough to take down some s2 humans. Apple owns me terribly with rifle, I killed him maybe 2 out of every 10 fights we had last night in a devmap training session. He just aims too damn well with rifle against mara, and it dooms them. That, and he shows that outside at ATCS is even deadlier for marauders, because a human who can circle jump well can get distance enough from a mara that a jump to catch up with the human is almost always fatal for that mara.
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The marauder may lose if he's stupid enough to stick around, but if you use the marauder right (running away like a coward most of the time) you win ten times over.
I will also mention that in a standard game of me playing only marauder on a public server, I get tked more than ever. If you're going to use mara, you better hope your teammates can avoid the urge to maul it.
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I have to say that the mara is powerful enough. It isn't a goon. When you choose to play mara you are choosing mobility over damage, which means(Hopefully) you feed less.
Trem players right now don't focus on not dieing enough, no feed/death counter.