Tremulous Forum

General => Feedback => Topic started by: Knowitall66 on September 07, 2008, 05:48:48 am

Title: Trem-chievements
Post by: Knowitall66 on September 07, 2008, 05:48:48 am
Ever played Teamfortress 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Fortress_2)? Well for those who haven't TF2 includes achievements (http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Team_Fortress_2/Achievements) which are unlocked by forfilling their requirements. Eg. Get 500 Kills as a Pyro. The site Something Awful parodied these with their own set; Team Fortress 2 Achievements Anyone Can Get (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/video-game-article/team-fortress-achievements.php). So I decided to make some my self (Mostly just silly);

(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/h_LegitStratergy.png)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/h_PestControl.png)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/b_WaterLogged.png)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/h_SharpShooter.png)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/b_PassiveDefense.png)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/b_FlameGrilled.png)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/h_PersonalTrainer.png)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/Tremulous/a_SwissCheese.png)
Reference Shot (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/knowitall66/RealAcheivementspic.png)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Seffylight on September 07, 2008, 06:27:01 am
Cute. :) Achievements for teamkilling would immediately bring the end of Trem as we know it.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: kevlarman on September 07, 2008, 06:35:21 am
much more impressive if you get killed by a turret 3 times in a row as a human (without using tjw's old code, that was fun though)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 07, 2008, 07:44:07 am
I kinda like some of those listed there :)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: mooseberry on September 07, 2008, 07:56:06 am
Pretty cool! Also reminds me of COD4.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: cactusfrog on September 07, 2008, 07:57:43 am
i accomplish all of those every game. 
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: mooseberry on September 07, 2008, 07:59:17 am
Oh really? Tell me how you drown on ATCS oh master.   ;)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: cactusfrog on September 07, 2008, 08:42:18 am
Oh really? Tell me how you drown on ATCS oh master.   ;)
didn't 't say anything about atcs. i always drown on karith.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 07, 2008, 11:32:29 am
Team Fortress 2 is an insult for everyone that grew up with Team Fortress. The added achievements do nothing but add a WoW element to TF2, where people do nothing but act retarded to get their precious achievements.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Syntac on September 07, 2008, 01:34:22 pm
I like this idea, though it will probably cause all sorts of problems if actually implemented. There's already that problem where people think their killcount is more important than their team's success.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Kaleo on September 07, 2008, 01:35:06 pm
add a WoW element to TF2

I fail to see how.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 07, 2008, 01:38:48 pm
add a WoW element to TF2

I fail to see how.
Grinding.

It's not uncommon to enter a TF2 game, only to find out the people present are not actually playing a game of TF2, they are only grinding their way to a new achievement.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Kaleo on September 07, 2008, 01:50:07 pm
add a WoW element to TF2

I fail to see how.
Grinding.

It's not uncommon to enter a TF2 game, only to find out the people present are not actually playing a game of TF2, they are only grinding their way to a new achievement.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say MMORPG as opposed to WoW? Grinding is a part of all MMORPG's.

I actually thought you were going to make a reference to WoTLK's achievements, which are in fact being stolen (like every other achievement system) from Xbox Live.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Plague Bringer on September 07, 2008, 01:52:58 pm
Oh really? Tell me how you drown on ATCS oh master.   ;)
doesn't say anything about atcs. i always drown on karith.
You said "every game". Do you never play on ATCS? ATCS has no water so, if you ever play on ATCS or any other non-water map, you don't, infact, achieve all of those every game.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 07, 2008, 02:05:39 pm
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say MMORPG as opposed to WoW? Grinding is a part of all MMORPG's.
Not every MMORPG has the same grinding system as Ultima Online->EverQuest->World of WarCraft, and World of WarCraft is the standard MMORPG these days, wether you like it or not.

The achievements in itself are not what's bad about this, it's the way they have been implemented. This current system in TF2 encourages people to act retarded to get their achievements, instead of just play normal games. This rewards the lamers and leaves people that just play the game out of reach of most of the achievements.

Just to clarify (or not), I think that in for example Portal, the achievements actually work really well. Just like carrying around a garden gnome in Half-Life 2: Episode 2.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Kaleo on September 07, 2008, 02:13:18 pm
I think kill achievements can be really rewarding, like those in CoD4.

I always feel so good when I finish getting 50 headshots with a shotgun.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 07, 2008, 02:18:54 pm
I think kill achievements can be really rewarding, like those in CoD4.

I always feel so good when I finish getting 50 headshots with a shotgun.
Yes, it would be totally rewarding if people host servers and start maps for the sole purpose of giving each other that 'Make 50 headshots with a Shotgun' achievement. So satisfying, right?
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Plague Bringer on September 07, 2008, 02:31:37 pm
Just to clarify (or not), I think that in for example Portal, the achievements actually work really well. Just like carrying around a garden gnome in Half-Life 2: Episode 2.
Both of the games you listed are single player.

(http://photos.sutradirectory.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/fail-8.jpg)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 07, 2008, 02:45:20 pm
Just to clarify (or not), I think that in for example Portal, the achievements actually work really well. Just like carrying around a garden gnome in Half-Life 2: Episode 2.
Both of the games you listed are single player.

http://photos.sutradirectory.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/fail-8.jpg
They are singleplayer? Really? Maybe I listed those two titles specifically to show that while achievements work really well in singleplayer, they do not nearly work as well as in multiplayer.

But, I guess this was all a bit too much for you to grasp. I am sorry for this.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: E-Mxp on September 07, 2008, 02:46:26 pm
What you could do is make the not yet unlocked achievements invisible, making them get achievements at accident.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 07, 2008, 02:47:09 pm
What you could do is make the not yet unlocked achievements invisible, making them get achievements at accident.
And as soon as one person reaches a certain achievement, it's not nearly as invisible anymore.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Paradox on September 07, 2008, 09:07:33 pm
I bet if you add achievements, someone will hack them instantly to make em unlockable in a second.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Plague Bringer on September 07, 2008, 09:17:25 pm
I bet if you add achievements, someone will hack them instantly to make em unlockable in a second.
Which will accomplish nothing..
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 07, 2008, 09:51:19 pm
I bet if you add achievements, someone will hack them instantly to make em unlockable in a second.
Which will accomplish nothing..
Posting 'FAIL' images to showcase your own stupidity certainly has no benefits at all, whereas hacking your way towards a certain achievement at least has the benefit of you having your precious achievement.

On a more serious note, Paradox obviously is right, but I don't think the technical aspects of a achievement system matter if you cannot find a proper way to implement them into the game in the first place.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Hendrich on September 07, 2008, 10:41:59 pm
Quote
Team Fortress 2 is an insult for everyone that grew up with Team Fortress. The added achievements do nothing but add a WoW element to TF2, where people do nothing but act retarded to get their precious achievements

Agreed, I loved playing TF for quake when I was young, and I loved the TF on half-life and steam, but TF2 is just a whole lotta bullshit that was saughtaed in shit, covered in shit, sprinkled with shit, baked with shit, and on top is the crappy source engine that makes TF2 feel half-life 2-ish.
I totally hated it, nothing was new for TF2, fortress forever was the same, just has those achievements that everybody wanted to do, and for doing it you get new items.. I mean.. comon. The only new change was the spy and the engineer and the sticky bombs, screw TF2, TF lives forever.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Syntac on September 07, 2008, 11:56:23 pm
@Lava Croft, Plague Bringer: C'mon, guys, is this really the time to carry on your age-old disagreements?
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: sticks on September 08, 2008, 02:58:20 am
lol this is a good idea, it would be nice to see it implemented
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Taiyo.uk on September 08, 2008, 03:51:27 am
It'd be fun as an occasional "silly" mod.

Overall it'd detract from Tremulous in the exact same way that killwhoring does, whereby players ignore the object of the game (and neglect the associated skills) in order to get themselves higher up on the scoreboard.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lakitu7 on September 08, 2008, 06:08:44 am
This sort of thing was actually one of my secret possible future projects slightly after the time when I created /mystats and was toying around with uses for them. I think that in the right hands it could be a good idea, given that the "right hands" made extra sure to come up with achievements that promote good Tremulous gameplay and none that do not. However, most "good"  behaviors are technically difficult/impossible to detect and recognize, where all the "bad" ones are like one line of code.

Like /mystats, I wouldn't ever do anything like this that extends beyond a single, local game. The logistics of doing things across servers and over time are just not worth it for something like this, plus all the hack/abuse issues people have mentioned.

Actually I began to work on this by investigating how I could possibly display them at the end of the game without modifying cgame/ui, which took me to trying to figure out how to make a pre-intermission to display them in CP. This pre-intermission fake intermission time is what led me to rewrite Ben's !pause idea.

So yeah, I don't think it's actually feasible to do in Tremulous in a way that would promote good gameplay, but my toying with it did bring us !pause, so something good came of it. :)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: gimhael on September 08, 2008, 08:09:20 am
I bet if you add achievements, someone will hack them instantly to make em unlockable in a second.

You should add a 'hacker' achievement for that.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 08, 2008, 02:57:48 pm
Quote
Team Fortress 2 is an insult for everyone that grew up with Team Fortress. The added achievements do nothing but add a WoW element to TF2, where people do nothing but act retarded to get their precious achievements

Agreed, I loved playing TF for quake when I was young, and I loved the TF on half-life and steam, but TF2 is just a whole lotta bullshit that was saughtaed in shit, covered in shit, sprinkled with shit, baked with shit, and on top is the crappy source engine that makes TF2 feel half-life 2-ish.
I totally hated it, nothing was new for TF2, fortress forever was the same, just has those achievements that everybody wanted to do, and for doing it you get new items.. I mean.. comon. The only new change was the spy and the engineer and the sticky bombs, screw TF2, TF lives forever.
Worst thing about TF2 is the fact that the Medic's Healing Tool was dumbed down into a frigging ranged weapon.
Also, I miss all the goodness from ProZaC-TF.

One way of implementing achievements might be on a per-game basis. The achievements would stay close to the goal of Tremulous, and be of the 'Kill the most Eggs'-type. As Lakitu7 rightly noted, care would have to be taken as to which specific achievements to add, so it does not turn into a silly achievement-contest.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Seffylight on September 08, 2008, 08:27:04 pm
One way of implementing achievements might be on a per-game basis.
Only way I could see this working. I'm in the acheivements-suck-in-multiplayer-games crowd.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Posts on September 08, 2008, 09:16:11 pm
Worst thing about TF2 is the fact that the Medic's Healing Tool was dumbed down into a frigging ranged weapon.
Is it because people who don't care about healing and are running away get healed? or something else?

if the the range was 1/3 would it be ok? would it be ok as an engineers repair tool at full range?
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 08, 2008, 09:39:36 pm
Worst thing about TF2 is the fact that the Medic's Healing Tool was dumbed down into a frigging ranged weapon.
Is it because people who don't care about healing and are running away get healed? or something else?

if the the range was 1/3 would it be ok? would it be ok as an engineers repair tool at full range?
Last answer because we are going off-topic here: In Team Fortress, Healing, building and interacting with buildables is done with a melee device. Much like Tremulous' Construction Kit, actually.

One way of implementing achievements might be on a per-game basis.
Only way I could see this working. I'm in the acheivements-suck-in-multiplayer-games crowd.
Now we need some really smart achievements that promote players to fullfill a certain role within their team, instead of promote players to act retarded.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lakitu7 on September 08, 2008, 09:48:39 pm
Yeah. I still haven't entirely given up, but I have lots of other things at higher priority. Like I said, it definitely never ever ever should be done on more than a per-game basis.

Further, there are maybe < 3 people besides myself that I'd trust to make this without making stupid achievements with bad consequences for the game. Ergo I strongly hope that nobody else does. :p
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Syntac on September 08, 2008, 10:10:00 pm
[DEL] Oops, wrong page.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Kaleo on September 08, 2008, 11:19:02 pm
One way of implementing achievements might be on a per-game basis.
Only way I could see this working. I'm in the acheivements-suck-in-multiplayer-games crowd.

A "stats" page like UrT's could work.

Example (http://anarchy-vengeance.com/tremulous/KaleoDesign/images/shot0001.jpg).
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Hendrich on September 09, 2008, 12:03:30 am
Quote
Worst thing about TF2 is the fact that the Medic's Healing Tool was dumbed down into a frigging ranged weapon.
Also, I miss all the goodness from ProZaC-TF.

Well HELL yea!

http://i.neoseeker.com/n/0/tf2_medic_thumb.jpg (http://i.neoseeker.com/n/0/tf2_medic_thumb.jpg)
Going off-topic here, but wtf? WTF is that, thats not a healing weapon, looks like a friggin' cannon, what was wrong with the normal medkit? It makes players shine or someshit when they get healed, who would want that to happen? They just basically messed up TF up the a$$. I had more fun playing TF for quake then playing this dis-grace. The only good games from the orange box were HL2 and Portal. the Half-Life episodes were a mistake, might as well rolled all 3 (Episode 3 is coming) damn games into HL3.

As far as I know, I want Tremulous nothing like TF2, I liked Bomb's version of it waaaayyy better, just a single game, making the players see if they can win and how many acheivments they could get into one game, not this server-wide bullcrap Valve gave people who bought TF2 (and its crapp for me, I got retail, but its fine cause for some reason I got HL 1 for free :D ).

Hands down, TF2 is a source (Engine) of shit for players everywhere.

It would be nice to see Tremulous achivements, but I don't want people grilling me cause they wanna get friggin' acheivments while a rant is swiping our base. :/
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Syntac on September 09, 2008, 12:11:03 am
Hendrich, I like you, but here's some advice: Don't be a pundit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pundit_(expert)).
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: 3vil H3ndrich on September 09, 2008, 12:18:20 am
Don't be a pundit.

He aint Pundet, hes just a nub! >:D
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Syntac on September 09, 2008, 12:19:11 am
And who the hell's alt are you, exactly?
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Hendrich on September 09, 2008, 12:19:43 am
Hey, your that idiot who uses my internet connection for your freakin' PSP! :/

I should start SWEP'ing my connections, btw, your usename sucks

Quote
Hendrich, I like you, but here's some advice: Don't be a pundit.

Whats a pundit? It sounds like you called me an idiot :P
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Paradox on September 09, 2008, 01:16:44 am
GTFBOT.

Get the fuck back on topic.

Or you will be visited by (http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/MrLock.png)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Syntac on September 09, 2008, 01:39:12 am
Whats a pundit? It sounds like you called me an idiot :P
I put in a cleverly hidden link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pundit_(expert)).
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Paradox on September 09, 2008, 04:00:15 am
Final warning...
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: cactusfrog on September 09, 2008, 04:03:46 am
i think that rewords that don't give you any advantage.  For example you kill 5 alien structures you get an award for that and all it does is give you a different symbol near your name. But if any sever were to code xp they would always have at least 20 players on there server. 
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: mooseberry on September 09, 2008, 04:29:44 am
But more importantly, you get to help your team win by killing 5 alien structures... Oh wait, no rewards are more important....
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: gimhael on September 09, 2008, 10:33:15 am
In my opinion the bigger problem is that there is already a reward system in tremulous that is very bad because it doesn't really reflect the usefullnes of the player to win the game (Hint: Killcounter). So I would like to have a more differetiated (did I spell that correctly  ???) display.

Rewards for doing something a number of times are silly imho, but maybe giving out per-match titles for players actually playing sensible would be nice.
Like "tyrant hunter" for the player who killed the most tyrants or "demolition man" for the player that killed the most enemy buildgings, etc.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 09, 2008, 10:35:44 am
In my opinion the bigger problem is that there is already a reward system in tremulous that is very bad because it doesn't really reflect the usefullnes of the player to win the game (Hint: Killcounter). So I would like to have a more differetiated (did I spell that correctly  ???) display.

Rewards for doing something a number of times are silly imho, but maybe giving out per-match titles for players actually playing sensible would be nice.
Like "tyrant hunter" for the player who killed the most tyrants or "demolition man" for the player that killed the most enemy buildgings, etc.

These are the type of achievements I had in mind, and tied in with a map's target_location entities, defense/offense-styled achievements are possible too.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: SlackerLinux on September 09, 2008, 10:40:45 am
/allstats is your friend you'll find it in p-g qvm its just a new front end for latiku7's mystats. (coded by me :P)
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: David on September 09, 2008, 01:27:34 pm
When /mystats was written there was a lot of discussion about making it show everyone's stats.  It was decided bad for a lot of very good reasons.  Maybe people should do a bit more thinking before removing deliberately placed limitations?
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Lava Croft on September 09, 2008, 01:41:13 pm
When /mystats was written there was a lot of discussion about making it show everyone's stats.  It was decided bad for a lot of very good reasons.  Maybe people should do a bit more thinking before removing deliberately placed limitations?
Maybe people like you should start realizing that not everybody is caught in the influence sphere of your thought police.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Syntac on September 09, 2008, 08:29:59 pm
Maybe there should be rewards for helping your team, not just killing stuff. For example, a naked human is stuck in a basilisk's grasp and you kill the basilisk, thus saving your teammate and giving you a reward. That way, it's a lot harder to hoard achievements.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Hendrich on September 09, 2008, 10:28:21 pm
Is somebody really going to try to in-corporate all of this into the game? What is the difficulty of trying to get the game to understand when a player has actually done these tasks? Also, I don't think anyone will appreciate acheivements based on team-killing, like grilling your teamsmates. Maybe acheivements should be based on tasks that could help your tream rather then doing stupid stuff that will distract you from the game's objective.

Quote
Get the fuck back on topic.

Woah, ok, whatever you say. We never wanted any moderator issues.
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: Knowitall66 on September 09, 2008, 11:43:43 pm
I intended them to be a sort of joke, I never suggested it be implemented..
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: cactusfrog on September 10, 2008, 04:22:09 am
how about rewards like take down the other teams om/reactor or kill the other teams spawns or kill the last person on the other team or get first blood all those are helpful achievements
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: KamikOzzy on September 19, 2008, 08:17:26 pm
I like the once-per-match shit. Meren's stats system already does this somewhat, but it's sort of a private thing we use for zubs scrims at the moment...I think...

anyway!

look @ this: http://meren.org/games/Zubs-vs-NT-2008-07-22/games.html
Title: Re: Trem-chievements
Post by: fleash eater on January 10, 2009, 06:04:29 am
SORRY FOR THE NECRO, BUT I AM JUST READING THIS AND I FIND IT AMAZINGLY INTRESTING....


fucking caps....


anyways i think maybe you should have something that tracks total achievements gained and just add them per-game though? and stop it at like 99 or something....


or maybe a client side mod? someone needs to pick this up this would make trem much much much more better for the player personally and build up that sociableness(i learned a word  ^^) in tremulous